1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: Never Told your production of I Heart Radio. Today. We 3 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: are thrilled to be joined by some some guests I'm 4 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: super excited about. We have Rose Read who's yea indeed, 5 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 1: the podcast The Women and her mom Gil. Hello, everyone, 6 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,959 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us, both of you. We 7 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: were so excited to have you on because obviously your 8 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: show was right up our alley and we love everything 9 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: that is happening. Um, we didn't get to listen to 10 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: a couple of episodes, is beautiful. Thank you so thank 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: you so much for sharing and thank you for stopping by. 12 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: Both of you. We're thrilled in our hometown of Atlanta, Atlanta. 13 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: G A. Yes, we did a lot of sleu thing 14 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: to figure this out. Really, we could just asked, We're like, 15 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: let's get to the bottom of where that from. There 16 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: was a little bit of stalking in her like does 17 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: she living at enough? Does she know she's kind of 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: Atlanta number? I know this notice, you know, I gotta 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: keep it mysterious. Yeah, could you tell us a little 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: bit about your podcast The Women? Sure? So, I'm Rose Reed, 21 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,199 Speaker 1: I'm the host of the Women, and I Heart radio 22 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: show it is. It's a long form biographical interview show. 23 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: So every episode I get the opportunity to sit down 24 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: with one woman who's done something pretty extraordinary. And we've 25 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: had a range of folks on from whistleblowers, politicians, uh 26 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: doctors and singer songwriters, and you know, behind every baby 27 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: is a village and behind every podcast is a family 28 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: that either tolerates it, or supports it or ignores it. 29 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: And I'm on the end of the spectrum where my 30 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: mom is a huge supporter and a and a big 31 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: part of it made So yeah, Gail, Well, for me, 32 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: it's been an incredible opportunity to explore something that would 33 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: have never occurred to me that I would enjoy, which 34 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: is editing audio. I love storytelling, love reading, and I 35 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: love listening to podcasts. Became of age and have spent 36 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: most of my adult life listening to NPR and it 37 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: really was addicted to quite a few of the interview 38 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: shows and was just thrilled when Rose was able to 39 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: put her vision of the women on paper and present 40 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: it and team up with the folks at I Heart 41 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: who have done a great job of supporting the distribution 42 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: of the show. So um, Yeah, it's great. Yeah, and 43 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: I love that you're here, that you had the idea 44 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,119 Speaker 1: to bring your mom in and she you've been on 45 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: the Women as well. Um, because the title is stuff 46 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: bomb never told you. I've never been able to commis 47 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: my mom to come on. I tried really hard because 48 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: I was like, Mom, we could do this thing about 49 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: where I tell you what modern dating is like and 50 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: you tell me what it was like at your time. 51 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: She was like, no, she wasn't game. No, she doesn't game. 52 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: I feel like I want to join this conversation. I 53 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 1: have never met your mother, but I know plenty of 54 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: about her, and I feel like I already know her, 55 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: So I feel like I should join in and be like, hey, 56 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: come be a part with us, because I think that 57 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: would be up. Yeah, next went show and she should. 58 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: Maybe she might, she might listen to you. Um, that's 59 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: the power of friends. You know, Mom's love friends. True. 60 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: That is true. That's like a universal truth. Okay you 61 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: heard it here first, Okay, okay, perfect Um. And can 62 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: you now that you told us about your show, could 63 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about yourselves and how 64 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: you got into this. What do you want to know? 65 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: What do you not want. I know. I did say 66 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,119 Speaker 1: that you are part of the Freemake project, which is phenomenal, 67 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: and of course that got me excited. I was like, 68 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: oh my god, she's a part of this really great 69 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: concept and idea about maybe some of the abolition movement 70 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: and some of the idea of abolishing all of that's 71 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: a whole other story. We won't go there, but the Freemake, 72 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: it was a big project and it was a big conversation. Um, 73 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: so I would love to hear that project the A 74 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: r C podcast, Like ARC, it's it's changed because of 75 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: but okay, I know of course, like they find my 76 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: squarespace and they're like, can you change it from ARC 77 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: to A r C. And I'm like, oh, I forgot 78 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: how to use squarespace. Um, but yeah, all of that. 79 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: Let us know how you got into this world, because 80 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: you've already been doing a lot of these projects and 81 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: being opening up ideas and especially for our perspective, one 82 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: of the things that we want to focus on. Everybody's 83 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: happy that. I was like, let social justice level of 84 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: things that need to change, and you've been a part 85 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: of that obviously are ready. So I love that. What 86 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: have you been working on? What are you working on. Well, 87 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: I've been producing with my own company for the last 88 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: four or five years. I was at Gimwitt Media before that, 89 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: which is a podcast production company, and before that, I 90 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,559 Speaker 1: was working advertising, Ogilvie and May They're trying to stay sane. 91 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: I essentially always wanted to do radio. I really wanted 92 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: just one of those radio jobs where you work in 93 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: front of like a big soundboard and you have your 94 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: headphones on and you're kind of taking calls from people 95 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: driving in their cars. That was my dream. But I 96 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: graduated during the recession and I was in l A 97 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: at the time, and actually it was my dad who 98 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: gave me this PEP talk who I couldn't even get 99 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: a unpaid internship part time at NPR at the time, 100 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: and I was I was working some odd jobs making 101 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: ends meet, and my dad was like, with your free time, 102 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: you love radio, just go to a obscure radio station, 103 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: walk in and just say I'm here for the internship 104 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: on a Monday morning at nine am, and they'll take you. 105 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what I did. I walked into KPFK 106 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: Pacifica on a Monday morning and walked in said I'm 107 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: here for the internship and the next day I was 108 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: cutting tape, and so you can imagine that kind of 109 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: full circle. Ten years later, after doing video production and 110 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: got into podcast production once standistry started booming and I'd 111 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: already knew how to cut audio, I have a I 112 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: actually have a very similar story. That's funny story. Actually, yeah, 113 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: I in high school. I applied. I wanted to make documentaries, okay, 114 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: and I applied to you. At the time, this company 115 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: was owned by Discovery Channel, and I applied and they 116 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: were like, you'rer a high school student, A little enthusiastic. 117 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: Dragon later and then I was going to move to China. 118 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: I had a whole other thing after college. And a 119 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: week before I was set to move, I get a 120 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: call and they're like, hey, are you still interested. I 121 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: haven't updated my resume or anything. It's been years. And 122 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: I came in and interviewed and gave me to happen. 123 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: Here I am ten years later, So what about you, 124 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: gayl did you get into this? I really got into 125 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: it with Rose. I've had through pure fear, calling her, crying, 126 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: being like I need help, I need help, but need help? 127 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: Was that it? H You know? I always have harbored 128 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: this dream of hosting a radio show, and it really 129 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: harkens back long before podcast days, when I used to 130 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: listen to the radio growing up in New York and 131 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: f M d j's were such cool people, mostly men, 132 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: but there was one woman in New York who had 133 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: the late night midnight to four am UM shift, Alison Steele, 134 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: the Niberg and I love the way music was played, 135 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: one song flowing into another, or the idea of creating 136 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: a theme. I never had the urge to write music myself, 137 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: but I'm a big enjoy music a lot, as you 138 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: could hear on the Buffy interview, but I just never 139 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: acted on it. She's been an accountant for most of 140 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: her life and part time. I mean she doesn't actually 141 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: cut the audio, but my mom will listen to episodes 142 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: and give feedback on what's the story here, or what 143 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: should we open with or what should we trim and 144 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: and I think one of my my best contributions, if 145 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: I may say, at the beginning and when Rose did 146 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: her earliest interviews back in the fall, it was constantly 147 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: reminding her of what her mission was, that we're telling 148 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: stories about extraordinary women who have done extraordinary things. And 149 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: when you kind of start to bridge into journalism. The 150 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: temptation is to do a deeper dive to get other facts, 151 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: maybe to interview other people. And I think it took 152 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: three or four episodes, but we don't even have that 153 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: discussion anymore. But Mom is really good at like what's 154 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: the core what's the core theme here? And how do 155 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: you keep proximity to it? That's beautiful. Yeah, yeah, that's great. 156 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: Do you know the podcaster's prayer? No, don't judge me 157 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: by my first fifty episodes, So good for you. Get 158 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: that part out of the way. Yeah, you're still I'm 159 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: still good. Okay, Yeah, but your time is running out. No, No, 160 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to hold onto it. Um. But it kind 161 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 1: of a segue off of that because we wanted to 162 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: spotlight two women that you've already covered on on your podcast, 163 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: the women, Um, and one of them is Buffy St. Marie, 164 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: which she I hadn't heard of her, so this was 165 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: news to me, Um, but you didn't know Buffy, totally 166 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: new to me. But see that. I I listened to 167 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: your episode and it was beautiful and I loved all 168 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: the music in it, and I think this is great 169 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about her because I grew 170 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: up in a house that we listened to like pop 171 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: that's it, you know, whatever was on the radio that 172 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: that was it. We weren't a big music household, and 173 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: my dad loved music and he had records, but it 174 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: was sort of like whatever he liked or what ever was, 175 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: and that was it. Um. So I'm really excited to 176 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: talk about this and to hear about um your experience 177 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: with her, because it's kind of a personal story. How 178 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: do you bring in the guitar again? Oh? Please, I 179 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: actually use a guitar in here. I was gonna say 180 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: there's one around here somewhere. No, No, that's really clear. Alright, alright, 181 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: can only do so much work for the podcast, that's true. 182 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: That's fairly unpaid. Internship is really uh you know, they 183 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: say not the first fifty episodes. Okay, yes, I know, 184 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: but I really enjoy it. So's it's great for me. 185 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: I like it much better than accounting at this point 186 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: in my life. I think the first time I ever 187 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: heard Buffy's name was in our blue Aerostar van, probably 188 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: driving around very close to here in downtown Atlanta, listening 189 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 1: to a live album of the Indigo Girls and one 190 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: of their songs um they introduced by saying and this 191 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: next song was written by Buffy St. Marie. It's called 192 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: Burying My Heart at Wounded Me, and that just I 193 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: mean in the way that that song is saying it. 194 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: The lyrics are like a history lesson and it's so inspiring. 195 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: And also it's the kind of song verymart A wounded 196 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: specifically where you know you it's almost like a crash 197 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: course in the truth of you know, American colonialism, what 198 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: has been happening to Native Americans and their land for 199 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of years. And it's it makes you 200 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: want to run, it makes you want to be active, 201 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: it makes you want to vote. It's just the kind 202 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: of song that makes you want to do so many things, 203 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: and you find yourself singing to it every time. And 204 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: after that, Mom went through a real Buffy face. But 205 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: Mom knew of Buffy from when she was a teenager. Yeah, 206 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: as I said in the podcast, it just happened to be. 207 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: One of the first songs that I learned to play 208 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: was written by Buffy called Universal Soldier, and it that 209 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: song has pretty intricate and descriptive lyrics. But because I 210 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: learned it and then played it so much when I 211 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: was so young. You know, I could still recite the 212 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,599 Speaker 1: words to it. Um. And that's actually one of my 213 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: head and talents. A lot of lyrics in my head. Um, yeah, 214 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: I six ft four with missiles and with spears. He's 215 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: all of thirty one and he's only seventeen. And then 216 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: it goes through these various religions. He's been Catholic, a Hindu, 217 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: and Atheist, and Jane a Buddhist and a Baptist and 218 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:57,719 Speaker 1: a Jew. It's just you know, um. So as soon 219 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: as I heard this cut on The Indigo Girls, I 220 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 1: just was fluttered with memories about the the other song, 221 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: and then I wanted to know more about her because 222 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: she really had disappeared from the American music scene. Uh. 223 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: And that's when I bought her. I'm sure it was 224 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: the greatest hits album, and I have to confess when 225 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: when we were still buying things on c D. And 226 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: then that's how Rose got more exposed to her other songs. 227 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: And that's when I learned about all the other songs 228 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: that were so famous that she had written. Just so 229 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: interesting when we interviewed her, listening to her talk about 230 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: how she really had a fight for recognition as a songwriter. 231 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: I think it was easier in the music business to 232 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: accept women as singers, but there were very few women 233 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: and back in the early my youth that actually wrote 234 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: music and play their own music. Right, And she in 235 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: the interview you all did with her, she talks about 236 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: that about how she sold for one dollar. Right, she 237 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: sold Universal Soldier for one dollar in a in a bar. 238 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: You can imagine the scene, like if you watch Mrs. 239 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:15,839 Speaker 1: Maisel and you think of the gas light or when 240 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: you think of these like maybe coffee shops that a 241 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: lot of folk singers would go to in the West Village. 242 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: It sounded like it was a scene like that where 243 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: somebody sounds like offered as if they were helping her, 244 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: um swindled her. Sure, So, if you're familiar with anything 245 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: that's going on right now, especially with Taylor Swift's album 246 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: and the right and the writing that she's really doing 247 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: about the quagmire that she's in, where they were basically like, 248 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: you can earn back the right of your six albums 249 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: if you make six more albums for each album, you 250 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: can earn one and that that kind of language is 251 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: not I mean, I don't know where we get off 252 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: and like still continuing the intentioned servitude speak like I 253 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: thought we were retiring that or at is like being 254 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: shameful about it um or like closeting it in some 255 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: way behind masking it, behind some other man bureaucracy. Shiny shiny, 256 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: I'll help you, help you dance. But it reminded me 257 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: so much of the kind of rigama role that Buffy 258 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: went through forty fifty years ago. Of your talents, you 259 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: can earn back your talents if you like are indentured 260 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: to me as an actor, I do some acting, and 261 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: I it shocks me how many times people are like, 262 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: you should be so honored to be in my project. 263 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: Maybe I'll give you footage, like not even going to 264 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: consider paying you, and you probably won't even get that. 265 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: So uh, it's still very much a thing. And one 266 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: more thing about what happened with Buffy, and then we'll 267 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: we'll back up a bit and give some more backstory. 268 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: But eventually one of her her heroes, Elvis Presley, her 269 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: and was, hey, I love this song. It's like a 270 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: romantic song with me and for Silla, Yeah, I recorded 271 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: it and she was like nope, right, you know, and 272 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: that was an interesting story because it was Elvis's manager. 273 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: And you know, of course any artist can cover a 274 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: song and and make money off of that that record, 275 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: and you know, off of their version. But he wanted 276 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: the His manager was bullying her into giving her the 277 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: writing rights a cut of the publishing money because it 278 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: would sell songs. She would make money from his version 279 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: of it, you know, for every record she would make 280 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, half a sun or whatever it was, 281 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: and he wants you know, the manager wanted to cut. 282 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: And I think getting to the root of that question 283 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: is I want ownership of something you've created and feeling 284 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: entitled to that, especially if it's a woman, if it's 285 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: a person of color, if it's a woman of color. 286 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: Is the audacity is is is incredible? Um, but it's 287 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: still so pervasive. You can see it today and just 288 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: the constant conversations when it comes to music, specifically as 289 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: you were talking about Taylor Swift and then they were 290 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: talking about people who women of color who are continually 291 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: bullied into well, we gave you this opportunity, you owe us, 292 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: instead of you earned this opportunity, we owe you, which 293 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 1: is an odd sense of ownership, as you said, and 294 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: like it is it is like an modern form of 295 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: indentured servitude. I gave you an opportunity, Now you need 296 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: to pay me back somehow. And it's like, wait, but 297 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: this is I did this, like creating, this is my content. 298 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: What are you talking about? What you're what you just 299 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: said to me is the core the essence of sexual harassment. 300 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: See how mom brings it back to the core, to 301 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: the proximity to the kernel of the truth. Though it 302 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: is that whole misogynistic idea that this is what we 303 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: have created in order to get what we have to do, 304 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: to unravel so many things, because it is it is 305 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: a core of this idea of you owe me. And 306 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: I think that what's really interesting when we think about 307 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: it unt of in its equal counterpart. You know, when 308 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: you see and you see this in the workplace, but 309 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: especially in art, as we're using this example. You know, 310 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: you see a man's career take off, and you hear, man, 311 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: he is brilliant. He is brilliant. And I think that 312 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: you you hear that. I often see that when you 313 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: know managers or big record label you know, big big 314 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: time producers will use that phrasing rather than oh buffy 315 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: st Marie O Taylor Swift. Maybe one day you'll you'll 316 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: work hard enough for me with the terms that I 317 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: make that you can eventually own that thing that you make. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 318 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: just all the systems in place. So I when I 319 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: I was thinking about this because I was listening to 320 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: this episode on Buffy St. Maria last night and I 321 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: learned to play the guitar because of Green Day. Yes, 322 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: Boulevard Broken Dreams is my first song. I can still 323 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: play it, um, But that got me to thinking of 324 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 1: when I was that age when you were learning Buffy 325 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: sat Marie and Universal Soldier, I was learning a lot 326 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: of men right, songs written by men, and uh, I 327 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: was honestly struggling for female artist. So I'm really glad 328 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: that you you brought this person to talk about the day. Um, 329 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: and I loved the music and like I said, it 330 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: was an introduction to me. So for any other listeners 331 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: who might not be familiar, could you both give a 332 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: rundown on who Buffy st. Marie is. Sure, I'll do 333 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: the primer and then mom, if you want to take 334 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: that away and add the deeper meaning, I'll see what 335 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: I can do. Buffy sat Marie is a singer songwriter. 336 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: She's an iconic folk singer. She really came of age 337 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: during the time of Bob Dylan and Joe Bias and 338 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell. And she was a folk singer and she 339 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: was a self taught musician. She also happens to be 340 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: and I'll go back before I go forward. She was 341 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: adopted UM, and she thought she was orphaned UM. She 342 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: actually was born on a reservation in Canada. And this 343 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: was during the time when there was a lot of 344 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: UM re education. I mean, I'm sure there's a better 345 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: way to phrase that, but that's the polite way that 346 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: the American government has started talking about its history. But 347 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: during their re education and placing children Native American children 348 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: in other places, whether it was a boarding school, UM, 349 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: adoption agencies. So she was actually adopted by a family 350 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: in Massachusetts, learned how to play the piano, play the guitar. 351 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: She was always a creative person and she really early 352 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: on in her early twenties, wrote a string of songs 353 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: ranging from protest songs like Universal Soldier to love songs 354 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: like until It's Time for You to Go, covered by 355 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: Elvis Pressley. Writing the music like up Where We Belong, Gentleman, 356 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: an officer, excuse me, an officer in a general and 357 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: she she's a really iconic UH folk singer, and she's 358 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: a true activist and native American activist. I think the 359 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: one thing that is really wonderful about Buffy is that 360 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: although some of her songs have been made famous by 361 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: other artists and covered by other artists, she has persisted 362 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: and she's released dozens and dozens of albums. But Gayle 363 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: from a from the perspective of the the vent Tam 364 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: War and actually growing up during that era when these 365 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: songs weren't just kind of nostalgia, but when they were actual, 366 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: real time calls to action. How would you phrase um 367 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: when you think of Buffy songs, Well, it definitely reminds 368 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: me of that time because the war was was very real. 369 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: It was a very everyday part of our lives then, 370 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: and it was it was foundational for me because I 371 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: was born in fifty five. By the time the war 372 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: was really in full swing, I was twelve and thirteen 373 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: years old, so it was my formative years. And one 374 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: of the things I really wanted to follow up on 375 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: what Rose said, not about the war, but I and 376 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: I didn't realize this about Buffy until we were doing 377 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: the piece on her, and I watched some some other 378 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,719 Speaker 1: interview video of her. So when I listened when I 379 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: went to see Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, and 380 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: I heard her voice in the um they're just seeing 381 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: where Margot Roby, who's playing Sharon Tate and Quentin Tarantino's 382 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: movie Once Upon Time in Hollywood, gets in her car 383 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: and you hear a song. Come on, it's the Circle Game, 384 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: which is a very very well known Joni Mitchell song, 385 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: The Circle Game and the season's they go round and Round. 386 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: And I had never heard Buffy sing this song, and 387 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: I knew Joni had written it, and I know I 388 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: know Joni Mitchell's version and I but I knew because 389 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: we were in the middle of editing this this piece 390 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: that it was Buffy's voice. It was because she has 391 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: a very unmistakable kind of trill to her singing, and um, 392 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: when I looked up some video of her singing it, 393 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: I saw her being interviewed and what I understood from 394 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: what she was telling the story she was telling Joni 395 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: Mitchell's Canadian also, and she had heard Joni Mitchell long 396 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: before she was famous and taken that song and recorded 397 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: it as a way of giving Joni Mitchell's career a boost. 398 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: And I just think that's so interesting when somebody that 399 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: you know of that's so enormously famous, like Johnny Menell, 400 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell, is helped by somebody, you know, another sister, 401 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: if you will, another another musician who uh. And then 402 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: the interesting thing Buffy said in this interview was she 403 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: thought Joni Mitchell was so great, and Jonny gave her 404 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: a demo tape and she carried it around everywhere she 405 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: went and would play it for anyone she could get 406 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: to listen to it. So really helped contribute to to 407 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: somebody else's career. Yeah, and I thought that was pretty amazing. 408 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: It's a strong sentiment. Also, there was an autobiography published 409 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 1: on Buffy St. Marie about a year ago, and the 410 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: forward is written by Joni Mitchell and it has that 411 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: sentiment exactly of you know, when I was coming up 412 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: and I looked up to Buffy and there were very 413 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: few true singer song writers, as Buffy was also a writer, 414 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,719 Speaker 1: and so that was a really it's a really interesting 415 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: connection to think of that, and also to remember an 416 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: apropo of our conversation of really that network of women 417 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: and really, um, one woman's success as as many others, 418 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: but there's many women behind it. That's beautiful. Yeah, that's 419 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: one of our favorite things to talk about women supporting women. Yes, 420 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: and this might seem like a this is an artsy 421 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: question I wouldn't like, but I feel like you two 422 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: will be good at it. How can I tell you 423 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: that my mom used to watch Northern Exposure perfect? How 424 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: would you describe her music for people who haven't heard 425 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:04,239 Speaker 1: it Buffy's music, Well, it's definitely what I would call 426 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: folk music. It's a lot of solo guitar accompanying a 427 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: single vocal. Almost everything I've I've heard of hers is 428 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: her singing unaccompanied by a band or with other people 429 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: singing and doing harmony with her. So in a in 430 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: a sense, I would totally describe it as classic sixties 431 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: folk music because that is really how you picture all 432 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: all the singer songwriters that came from that era, Bob Dylan, 433 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: Leonard Cone, Judy Collins, everybody playing guitar. John Denver. Yeah, 434 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: I know you think you you imagine someone standing on 435 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: stage with you know, an acoustic guitar and pouring their 436 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: heart out. That's Buffy, say Murray. Yeah, totally. And in 437 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 1: her lay to work where I've seen more current videos 438 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: on YouTube, mom is the original sleuth. Yeah, it's dangerous 439 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: so on. On more current music of Buffy's, I hear 440 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: drums and certain way of singing that and even the 441 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 1: lyrics now that I know of her, like her process, 442 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: she's really she's really brought in, like she's made kind 443 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: of the music industry that pushed her out for so 444 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: long and even blacklisted her Johnson administration the next administration, 445 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: I guess the next in administration radio stations following suit. 446 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 1: She has kept true to her her north Star and 447 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: her compass and even and in doing so, she has 448 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: evolved and really embraced her roots and so many of 449 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: the people that joined her on her albums and some 450 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: of her especially more recent albums and moms talking about future, 451 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: a lot of artists, um, other Native American artists and 452 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: Native American instruments and ways of singing, and she really 453 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: has folded that into her later work. Yeah, I'm going 454 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: back to Universal Soldier. I know on her website correct, 455 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: she has like almost like group notes or something like 456 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: it's an and it's you know, it's an annotated you know, 457 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: line by line, referencing what each what each line is 458 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: referring to in terms of he's he's five ft, five 459 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: ft two and six ft four. Those were the hyper parameters. 460 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: He's seventeen and thirty four. Yeah, you gotta say it, mom, 461 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: Please stop leaving me out here to dry. He's all 462 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: of thirty one and he's only seventeen. So the age parameters. 463 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: But I know that age parameters for the draft, yes, 464 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: and for going for going to war. So she basically 465 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 1: she takes her song on line by line, dissects not 466 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,439 Speaker 1: just the inspiration, but references what that means in the 467 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: historical context. See what I mean by history. Lesson is crazy. 468 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: So stay home from school. I know I'm just doing. 469 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: That's the takeaway. Now, that is something your mother would 470 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: never tell you. That's true. That's true. Um. And so 471 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: going back to the blacklisting, you pointed out in that 472 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: episode that if you look at white artists, they were 473 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: not similar. Find that really inter Jill and Joan Bias. 474 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: They're doing protest songs and nobody. I mean, it was 475 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: a complete opposite. They weren't blacklisted. They their careers were 476 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: defined by it. Right, They made a whole career out 477 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,479 Speaker 1: of protesting. I mean, we just saw Bob Dylan being 478 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,959 Speaker 1: award a Nobel Prize for what could be looked at 479 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: as a canon of protest songs, just saying, just saying, 480 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: and she she was really big, as we've said, into 481 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: activism and intersexual feminism. Perhaps before that was a big 482 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: buzzword what it's all about, um because she's she said 483 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: something about like it asked me more than being emotional 484 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: or being angry, and with Universal Soldier, you see that 485 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: like she did this content like everything meant something, and 486 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: I think that's really powerful. And we're talking about the 487 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes and all the time, and sometimes 488 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: art and creativity kind of gets just dismissed um as 489 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: it's like oh yeah, like they're going to do this thing. 490 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: But it can be super powerful way to move people. 491 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: I think today has become more controversial even to do 492 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: so as you are part of the Freemac project that 493 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: was very controversial, and back to the Black Lives Matter 494 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: conversation is controversial. Yeah, I think it was one of 495 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: the big controversies when when it was coming out, because 496 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: they were like the whole level of just to do 497 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: what they say and you'll be okay. Just follow the 498 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: law and you'll be okay. And there's this whole like 499 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: drawn line in that level of blue lives matter, All 500 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: lives matter, Black lives matter, and why this is so 501 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: important and the incarceration of people of color, especially black men, 502 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: as we've talked about mania times, and it's continue to 503 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: talk about as part of the political conversation, and why 504 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: is it not a bigger part of the conversation as 505 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: the debates are happening, all that and whatnot, and then 506 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: we talk about Yeah, for the longest time, music did 507 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: do that, and sometimes it was as simple as just 508 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: be saying I'm angry. But for women of color, for 509 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: women in general, for women who protests, they have to 510 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: give a rational reason as no, really, I know what 511 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: I'm talking about. Let me break it down for you. 512 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: This is what this looks like instead of just being like, 513 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: I'm angry, I'm gonna, you know, have a protest in 514 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: bed type of thing. It's important, it's important. All of 515 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: that is important, But the level of proof that someone 516 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: has to give to be taken seriously, as I know 517 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, I know that I am a person 518 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: of color, and these are the reason these things matter, 519 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: and whether it's about drafting in war or that was 520 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: unnecessary or whatever, what we want to say back and 521 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: forth and even today again talking about the free me 522 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: or any conversation, when it comes to proving who understands 523 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: an idea or something that we're trying to fight for, 524 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: we have to prove more often than not why we 525 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: are rational and not just emotional, you know what I mean? 526 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: And I feel like, yeah, that's something that Mom and 527 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: I talk so much about because, I mean, when we 528 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: think about in historical contexts and some of these institutions 529 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: that we're trying to change, these institutions that were trying 530 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: to change, were set up for the very reason that 531 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: we are trying to change them. And we when we 532 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: think about, you know, the United States is kind of 533 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: being this special project that you know, really took its 534 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: autonomy to a whole new level. You know, when we 535 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: think of being a kind of a cousin or stepchild 536 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: of the commonwealth, I mean we think of how these 537 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: systems and really codification of law is used to with 538 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: a pen define who are the haves and have nuts? 539 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: And then as those of us who women, people of color, 540 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: marginalized groups, as we try to carve out places for 541 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: us in that system. We're not blowing up the system. 542 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: We're using that fountain pen with the best penmanship on 543 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: the best parchment paper to show no, I I get 544 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: your rules, and I play by them and not and 545 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: I'll do you one further. I'll do I'll be the 546 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: best at them. I just want to live. And that's Uh, 547 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: that's the fight that we see today. And I think 548 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: it's it is um disheartening, but also really empowering to 549 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: see the creative way that people play in that poker game. 550 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: If I see you, I raise you and I call you. 551 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: And so that's artists like Buffy, artists like Meek Mill, 552 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: you know, they use they use a language that has 553 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: been you know, kept from so many groups of people, 554 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: and they use their poetry and they get to the 555 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: kernel of truth of what they see, whether it's in 556 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: the in a more the criminal justice system, and they're 557 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: able to say, here are the shared values that no 558 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: one can deny, and here's the beauty of what can be, 559 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: and here is the beast of what we must recognize. 560 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: And so I think that's what's really extraordinary. Yeah, it's 561 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: such a nice room, good crowd, good crowd. We have 562 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: a lot more in our discussions, but first we have 563 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: a quick break for a word from our sponsor and 564 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: we're back. Thank you sponsor. Now back into the interview. Mom, 565 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: can you hum um? So people know up where we belong? 566 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: I can hear it in my head right now, go 567 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: for it. Richard Gear and his white outfit going to 568 00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: pick up. Yeah right, love the night and shin or 569 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: Mulan rouge, all right on the elephant, love this soup? 570 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: Where we blong? Do I have to do this? Us up? 571 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: Where are we belonging? Us most terrible? Where the fine saying? 572 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:24,839 Speaker 1: Just like hummet? So people can okay? Can we just not? Yea? 573 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: I loved it. Fans a karaoke over here, so this 574 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 1: is phenomenal. And I'm really bad, but I think I'm good, 575 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: So you can come to our house perfect. I do see. Really, 576 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: I was in a band in high school. This is 577 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: the Green Day cover band. It was Green Day based. 578 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: It was very close. I love Green Day adjacent. Oh yeah, yeah. 579 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: My My hit song was called I Don't Believe in 580 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: Love because I was so emo emo and I can 581 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: still play it, but anyway, I will not have a 582 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: lasting impact when it comes to the musical world, I believe. 583 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: But what do you think how what was Buffy's impact 584 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: on you both specifically, what do you think it will 585 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: be at large? Thinking about Buffy's music makes me think 586 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: about some of the artists in this world that their 587 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: their poetry and their their linked to life and their 588 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,320 Speaker 1: want their want to share it with others. It is 589 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: such a on any day makes you just feel like, Okay, 590 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 1: I can get out of bed and there are other 591 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: people in this world that are not going to push 592 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: me around and they're gonna lift me up. And I 593 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: think thinking of Buffy's music, whether it's a love song 594 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 1: until It's Time for You to Go covered by Elvis 595 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,720 Speaker 1: um Up Where We Belong, huge Grammy and Academy Award 596 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,479 Speaker 1: winning hit from Officer and a Gentleman or um Bury 597 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: My Heart It Wounds, an a protest song and a 598 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: battle cry for justice. You you know, you see the 599 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: beauty and poetry and her penmanship. What about for you, Gail? 600 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: For me? What really has lingered with me? From talking 601 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: with Buffy? Which was really very special. Rose arranged for 602 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: a little follow up interview as you heard, and I 603 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: was sitting right in this very room. Yeah, that was 604 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: probably the best part of the Buffy thing. Yeah, it 605 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: was so great. But her her sincerity in talking to 606 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: me about my own musician ship. Mom was like, do 607 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: you think it's too old for me to perform? But 608 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: I'm too old to learn how to perform. You who 609 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: was like no, no, no, no, no no no no 610 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: no no no no no. She's just so encouraging but 611 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: just also just so sincere. And she really walked mom 612 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: through like this is what you're gonna do. Yeh. She 613 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: had no friends and family invited. They're the worst critics. 614 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: I thought that was great. I love that and has 615 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: really encouraged me to think about my singing and playing differently. 616 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: And the other thing too, was when she was talking 617 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: about how she came to write the song Universal Soldier 618 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: and she was in the airport and she saw winded 619 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: soldiers coming back from Vietnam. And this is before the 620 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: US had said we are at war, and they kept 621 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: it a secret for quite some time. Um, even though 622 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: people were dying. Her way of phrasing her opinion about 623 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: what was really going on underneath the surface, in terms 624 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: of people who wanted whose business it was to make 625 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: money off of the warmest machine essentially, uh so, being 626 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: that the Vietnam War really came out of the rah 627 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: ra Usa mentality of the nineteen fifties. Everything I knew 628 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: during that era contemporaneous with the war was we were 629 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: fighting communism, and that was it was an ideological fight. 630 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: But her ability to immediately see the underlying um money 631 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: making in the economics and greed driving and Richmond making 632 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: money off Poorman, I thought was just very imprescient. And 633 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 1: the way that she talked about it, it wasn't as 634 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: if she was apologizing for her opinion. It was as 635 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: if she was stating a fact that that was indisputable. 636 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: And I really respected how she presented herself. We could 637 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: keep talking about her forever, but there's a whole episode 638 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: on your podcast for listeners who want to learn more. 639 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: Um I also love it because it's Valentine's Day episode 640 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: and my mom is also my Valentine's and Valentine's episode 641 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: I did a similar thing about my mom. Yes, yes, 642 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: so I totally connected to that. But I guess we 643 00:38:54,520 --> 00:39:00,839 Speaker 1: should move on to our next person. Okay, another big favorite. Yes, 644 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: um so, yeah, someone else who wanted to talk about 645 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: is Fumzile Lambonuka and you got to interview her in Nairobi, 646 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: did Yes. It was amazing, very jealous of that opportunity. 647 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: I was. I was foot away from her, sitting next 648 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: to her in a conference room in a hotel in Nairobi, 649 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: and the whole time I'm holding my microphone. I thought, 650 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm holding my microphone in front of 651 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: this woman who has done so much for the earth. Crazy. Yes. 652 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: And it was a gender equality summit, Yes, yeah, so 653 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: and UH and the fall of nineteen was the twenty 654 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: five anniversary of essentially the Women's Bill of Rights um 655 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: that was made UH in the mid nineties. There were 656 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 1: a couple of really big conferences in Beijing and and 657 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: in Cairo So UH and Cairo ninety four. A lot 658 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,959 Speaker 1: of countries, I think over a hundred and seventy five 659 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: countries came together and said, and I don't know if 660 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:02,879 Speaker 1: you guys are going to laugh or you know, if 661 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: you say finally, but they basically said that women's rights 662 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: are human rights. It's like a kind of laugh, yes, 663 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: but what they One of the things that this was 664 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: called ratification. One of the things that this initiative really 665 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: did was give fuel to a lot of organizations and 666 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: also governments around the world to say, no, we have 667 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: to do this, we have an obligation to do this, 668 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: and we're going to be measured by quantifiable elements in 669 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:42,879 Speaker 1: ten years. So maternal health, wanted versus unwanted pregnancies, those 670 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: kinds of things are measured globally and then compared um 671 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: during these conferences. And so the Nairobi Summit was anniversary 672 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: of the Cairo Conference in ninety four and people from 673 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: all over the world came together. It was hosted by 674 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,280 Speaker 1: Ken Denmark and the United Nations and so the head 675 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: of You and Women, poom Zila, was there and um 676 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: I got to go and the United Nations Population Fund 677 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: helped me get to the summit and I did interviews 678 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: with them and that was really extraordinary. Yeah yeah, yeah, 679 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: that's really awesome. And she's really awesome. She's amazing. Yeah. 680 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: Can you tell tell us about her shore poom zel 681 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,919 Speaker 1: Milamna Nuka. She is from South Africa and she poom 682 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,279 Speaker 1: Zela leads You and Women and prior to that, she 683 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: was Deputy President of South Africa, which is the equivalent 684 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: of Vice President of South Africa. She was a minister 685 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: and Nelson Mandela's cabinet. She Nelson Mandel was one of 686 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,839 Speaker 1: her mentors, uh and I guess technically her boss. And 687 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: she she was really active during uh, you know, apartheid, 688 00:41:58,120 --> 00:41:59,919 Speaker 1: just like so many of her peers and so many 689 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 1: people who she considered, you know, really her friends were 690 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: that whole um party that was with Mandela. And so 691 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: she worked her entire life looking at justice and really 692 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 1: looking at women as this key stone element in communities. 693 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: And it's something that she's been able to pinpoint at 694 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: every part of her career, whether she was she was 695 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 1: a teacher at the y w c A and as 696 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 1: a cabinet minister reforming mining rights. At every point, she 697 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: really sees how to impact the most women with institutional 698 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: change and reforming infrastructure. And she's really she's really incredible. 699 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 1: She also has a lot of like humor and light 700 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: and is just a delight to be around. Yeah. One 701 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 1: of the things that stuck out to me in that 702 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: and then your interview with her is um she she 703 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 1: too bought up the importance of women supporting women or 704 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 1: finding your mentors or inspiration and other women. And she 705 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: she said that she thought perhaps the South African government 706 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:13,280 Speaker 1: was more afraid of women than men because they would yeah, yeah, yeah, 707 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,839 Speaker 1: And it was just really amazing to hear her talk 708 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,360 Speaker 1: about that, and then she would say things in passing 709 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,839 Speaker 1: that I'd be like, wait, hold on, how many times 710 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:27,359 Speaker 1: have you been arrested? Yeah? Um yeah. She was just 711 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 1: she was a delight and she she was in prison 712 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: like sending notes. So Pumila's husband wasn't prison right, Okay, 713 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,399 Speaker 1: So her husband um and at the time was her 714 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 1: boyfriend fiance. And if you know, if you can imagine, 715 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: Pumsila was you know, a student and an activist, and 716 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: she was a part of the the political party of 717 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: Nelson Mandela was a part of and you know, all 718 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:01,240 Speaker 1: of these people had been living um with out basic rights. 719 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: I just want to give some context for apartheid at 720 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: the time that our boyfriend was and now husband was 721 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: in jail. I mean, millions of people in South Africa 722 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: had their homes bulldozed because they weren't in the right vicinity. 723 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: They weren't in the right precinct for someone of their 724 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: color class to be in. So many South Africans who 725 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: were not white did not hell of electricity, did not 726 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: have running water, so the apartheid government had managed to 727 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: not only deprive people of their human rights, but of 728 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: um certain dignities that you know, all of white South 729 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: Africa had. And thinking of all these people who were 730 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,239 Speaker 1: students and intellectuals and activists who were imprisoned, whether they 731 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 1: were doing something that technically broke the law or just 732 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: because they were perceived as a threat. Nelson Mandela surf 733 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 1: over twenty years in prison because you know, he was 734 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,360 Speaker 1: perceived as a threat and he was the leader of 735 00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:02,080 Speaker 1: his party and that party was abolished um from South Africa. Uh, 736 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: they wouldn't recognize it as a party. So that also 737 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: makes us think about how recognition is so important today. 738 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:13,360 Speaker 1: At that time, um whom Zelei's boyfriend on our husband 739 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,799 Speaker 1: and as in so many of their friends were imprisoned, 740 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 1: and so they were passing notes to each other. I 741 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,279 Speaker 1: I asked her how they communicated. I was one, you know, 742 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: as I just worked on the Meek Mill project. You know, 743 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 1: over a couple of years ago, I got really familiar 744 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 1: with how you know, you get your number and it's 745 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 1: very complicated to to get called and to receive and 746 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,400 Speaker 1: make calls to someone in prison. You actually can't call 747 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,319 Speaker 1: them and for them to call you it's um, it's 748 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 1: like a crazy Easter egg hunt. Um. And anyway, so 749 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: I was trying to picture what it was like for 750 00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: her in the eighties to to talk to her boyfriend 751 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 1: on the phone while he was imprisoned, and she said, oh, no, 752 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: we couldn't talk on the phone. We had to send 753 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 1: each other letters. Oh, but they weren't like letters that 754 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: you could like to send. We smuggled letters and they 755 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 1: were on all kinds of pieces of paper from folded 756 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 1: up so guards couldn't pass it, or they were passed 757 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: on toilet papers so it could be inconspicuous. And so 758 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: there are all these notes that you know, essentially was 759 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 1: you know, their relationship while he was imprisoned. That just 760 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: sounds like love when you're like, hey, how are you today, 761 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: which is not what they would say, but of like wow, dedication. 762 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 1: I know. Puma Zi was saying during the interview that 763 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: some of these letters were read in public at A 764 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: long story and she didn't tell me all the details, 765 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: but during UM there was some kind of litigation and 766 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,720 Speaker 1: these letters were subpoena at and they were read aloud 767 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: and she was so embarrassed and her husband came up 768 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 1: to her and tapped her and said, you know, I 769 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 1: never got that letter. I didn't know you said that 770 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,879 Speaker 1: about so all. She's like, you know, dying of humiliation, 771 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 1: said he was just you know, I just think that's 772 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaker 1: such a sweet love story. There really is. She made 773 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,840 Speaker 1: a point to say that she became much more cautious 774 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,920 Speaker 1: about her activity when her boyfriend became imprisoned, because it 775 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 1: would not be smart for both of them to be 776 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,320 Speaker 1: imprisoned at the same time. That's a really good distinction 777 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: that only one person of the household or one parent 778 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:32,120 Speaker 1: can really afford to be right. Uh. And the other 779 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: thing talking about writing that I just found so amazing 780 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,400 Speaker 1: A couple of things. First was just what a tremendous 781 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:45,640 Speaker 1: opportunity the y w c A provided to her, just 782 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,920 Speaker 1: the organization and the structure, because it introduced her to 783 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 1: so many things that she as a I mean, she 784 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 1: doesn't really talk about where she grows up. Well, well, 785 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,960 Speaker 1: I mean we just didn't have time to go into detail, 786 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,160 Speaker 1: but whom Zela grew up during a time where the 787 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 1: y w c A was really active in her community, 788 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,520 Speaker 1: and it was one of her first jobs, and she 789 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,120 Speaker 1: became a teacher. She even went to Switzerland when she 790 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 1: was really young, working in Switzerland as a teacher. But 791 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,320 Speaker 1: she talks about this really strong community that she joined 792 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,759 Speaker 1: and was a part of. And they had a pen 793 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,600 Speaker 1: pal program, which you know, I hadn't thought about in 794 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,319 Speaker 1: a million years. But kids used to write each other 795 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,840 Speaker 1: and it was really cool to have a pal and 796 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:38,799 Speaker 1: another another country. Yeah. Yeah, even even as a kid, though, 797 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,880 Speaker 1: I was suspicious my pen pal wasn't real. You were 798 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:49,120 Speaker 1: afraid of being catfished. I was like, Roman, you need 799 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,279 Speaker 1: to give me some real facts here about your life. 800 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,719 Speaker 1: I don't know. He wanted some details I did. I 801 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 1: wanted something I could fact check and prove he was real. 802 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: My brothers pracked me a lot, so I was very 803 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: I'm like, who's going to go to that elaborate of 804 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 1: my brother's. Absolutely they would totally at first grader, they 805 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,480 Speaker 1: definitely would. Did you ever find out? No? I still 806 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 1: have my doubts about Roman. Roman, if you're listening Annie 807 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:26,040 Speaker 1: from Lincoln County, were you really reveal myself? Just drop 808 00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:30,680 Speaker 1: some details along the way? Prize in Khakis, I don't 809 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 1: say either this is the beginning of a really bad 810 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,239 Speaker 1: Netflix movie or a really good Hallmark movie. I'm not 811 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:42,319 Speaker 1: really sure I like that line right there. Yes, we 812 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,279 Speaker 1: do have some more for you listeners, but first we 813 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,040 Speaker 1: have one more quick break for work from our sponsor 814 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 1: and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Let's get back into 815 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,600 Speaker 1: it as we were like reading and researching and hit 816 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 1: listening to uh the interviews on Pumsila. She sounds like 817 00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,120 Speaker 1: she's just a die hard like has always been in 818 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,800 Speaker 1: trucking through in being an advocate in her her focus 819 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,000 Speaker 1: was to not only find rights for all, which, by 820 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,439 Speaker 1: the way, during their part time it was just hey, 821 00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,200 Speaker 1: let's just survive as black people in this community that's 822 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:32,399 Speaker 1: been taken over by absurdity and racism essentially UM into hey, 823 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,360 Speaker 1: how let me go one step further because I know 824 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,080 Speaker 1: even in this women are being looked over UM and 825 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,880 Speaker 1: we saw that she was one I believe or was 826 00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,760 Speaker 1: that right? And as for you and women, like, what 827 00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,400 Speaker 1: is her motivation that she continues on this line like 828 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,359 Speaker 1: it's just such a powerhouse move that not only did 829 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 1: she focus beyond that, but going into the u N 830 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,279 Speaker 1: which is a representation for all, Like did she talk 831 00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,600 Speaker 1: about that a little more? Well? I think and for 832 00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,040 Speaker 1: Pumsila and I think this relates back to, you know, 833 00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: when you start a penpower relationship when you live in 834 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 1: a country that doesn't even provide everyone with equal rights. 835 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,600 Speaker 1: She she describes having this epiphany of being a global 836 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:17,879 Speaker 1: citizen and there she has friends and other countries, and 837 00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:22,359 Speaker 1: I think for her and for so many of her peers, uh, 838 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,760 Speaker 1: so many other people who worked in the Mandela cabinet, 839 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,920 Speaker 1: they were not satisfied by just saying, oh, we're gonna 840 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,319 Speaker 1: They were not satisfied with doing the bare minimum for 841 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,279 Speaker 1: switching the government from after apartheid. They really wanted to 842 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:42,120 Speaker 1: establish human rights, basic dignities to every single person in 843 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,760 Speaker 1: the country, and that meant bringing electricity, That meant getting 844 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:50,879 Speaker 1: running water to almost every citizen, and trying to make 845 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 1: an infrastructure where not only had there been none, but 846 00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 1: the apartheid government had actively tried not to build it. 847 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:03,400 Speaker 1: And Um working within the cabinet and becoming the minister. 848 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,440 Speaker 1: She worked as a minister overseeing the mining and reforming 849 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 1: mining and South Africa, and then she worked as its 850 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,640 Speaker 1: deputy president. And then she took a break and she 851 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,799 Speaker 1: got her UM. She went back to school and really 852 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:21,840 Speaker 1: studied information, really study technology. She really is really interested 853 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,440 Speaker 1: in how do we have new tools and use technology 854 00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:31,080 Speaker 1: to share education and information and mobile ways and smart ways, 855 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,600 Speaker 1: bring it to rural areas, bring it to people who 856 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:37,640 Speaker 1: have been marginalized or left out because of rugged terrain 857 00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:42,000 Speaker 1: or because of bad government. And she is not satisfied 858 00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,759 Speaker 1: with the status quo. I think she is one of 859 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,919 Speaker 1: those people who looks at the world and I think 860 00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,680 Speaker 1: when we have a sigh, she's like, that is an opportunity, man. 861 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,440 Speaker 1: So I think when we look around and we're like 862 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:59,600 Speaker 1: another are now you know, another picture of all these 863 00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,680 Speaker 1: men making decisions for women, she looks at it as like, no, 864 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,000 Speaker 1: I know who my call is tomorrow morning to talk 865 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:11,000 Speaker 1: about gender equality in their administration. And yeah, I think 866 00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: we had an interview earlier today when we were talking 867 00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:18,359 Speaker 1: about it. When we talk about phenomenal people who make 868 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,400 Speaker 1: a change or push to make change or fight for 869 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,319 Speaker 1: other people's rights, it's literally those who are like, oh, 870 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,800 Speaker 1: there's not anything for that, there's not an opportunity to 871 00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:28,520 Speaker 1: let me go find it, let me go do this. 872 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:30,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to create my own way. I'm going to 873 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,360 Speaker 1: create my own steps, or I'm going to create my 874 00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,480 Speaker 1: own path in order to get this done, which is 875 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,920 Speaker 1: a phenomenal take And that's kind of an understanding today 876 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,640 Speaker 1: as we are sitting on a lot of things that 877 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:46,080 Speaker 1: we thought we had gotten past, uh, and we're having 878 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,440 Speaker 1: to have backpack. Is kind of like, Okay, let's refine 879 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,720 Speaker 1: those steps. How do we get back and go beyond 880 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:55,319 Speaker 1: this boulder, this hump rather and this block for us? 881 00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,799 Speaker 1: How do we continue on and seeing creating a new path, 882 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,000 Speaker 1: finding a new way. And I think that's what's so 883 00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:05,320 Speaker 1: inspiring about people like Poomsila. They look at these problems like, oh, 884 00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,760 Speaker 1: my friend is throwing a party and has no appetizers. 885 00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,120 Speaker 1: I know exactly what I'm going to make tomorrow. Like 886 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:14,239 Speaker 1: they look at something as opportunity and solution and then 887 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:18,040 Speaker 1: how to scale that And that's what's so impressive. But 888 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,520 Speaker 1: more than a dinner party, more like you know, um 889 00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:26,200 Speaker 1: global global change and gender equality across every nation, all 890 00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:30,200 Speaker 1: the things, all the things you know, just just making 891 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,760 Speaker 1: vast massive changes for everyone, all good for the better. 892 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,200 Speaker 1: I love it so with that because you kind of 893 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,000 Speaker 1: already highlighted it from each of these women Buffy to Pumsila, 894 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,480 Speaker 1: what are takeaways that you had from each of the 895 00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,200 Speaker 1: interviews or conversations that you're like, yes, I'm gonna live 896 00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:47,359 Speaker 1: that way, or I'm gonna I'm gonna think that way, 897 00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:51,359 Speaker 1: or I'm gonna push that way from Poomsila sitting next 898 00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:56,320 Speaker 1: to a woman who was mentored by Nelson Mandela and 899 00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:00,839 Speaker 1: who worked in his parliament and seeing her joy and 900 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:05,799 Speaker 1: her lightness really made me think about how we all 901 00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:07,839 Speaker 1: have a gift to carry ourselves in our own way. 902 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,160 Speaker 1: When she sat next to me and I asked her 903 00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:13,440 Speaker 1: how she got the news that she became minister in 904 00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,040 Speaker 1: his cabinet, and she said, oh, I got a phone 905 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,160 Speaker 1: call when I was traveling and they told me to 906 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,120 Speaker 1: come in and see the president. And I don't think 907 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:22,680 Speaker 1: that you ever get called in for good news. So 908 00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:27,040 Speaker 1: I avoided him for weeks and then and then finally 909 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: they called her and they were like, um, no, really 910 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,120 Speaker 1: come in and he told her, he said, I really 911 00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,120 Speaker 1: think that you should be a minister in the cabinet. 912 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,920 Speaker 1: And she said she refers to him as Tata that 913 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,120 Speaker 1: the affection named her father. She said, I'm not ready. 914 00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,560 Speaker 1: There's so many competent people in your cabinet. Why would 915 00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,200 Speaker 1: you choose me? And he said, I've been a prisoner 916 00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,920 Speaker 1: most of my life and no one has taught me 917 00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,279 Speaker 1: how to do this job. And I learned every day 918 00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:58,400 Speaker 1: and so will you. And Pumila said to me that 919 00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:02,120 Speaker 1: that inspired her. But after that was like, yes, okay, 920 00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:06,000 Speaker 1: then really took that as as like carte blanche for 921 00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:08,279 Speaker 1: like I can if he can say that I can 922 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,640 Speaker 1: believe in myself and just her humor, that's just such 923 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,440 Speaker 1: such a lovely thing to walk away from. Uh. This 924 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:16,560 Speaker 1: is something that my mom and I talk a lot about. 925 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:21,080 Speaker 1: So many of these interviews um and what we share 926 00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:25,719 Speaker 1: with our audience is condensed a bridge version of a conversation, 927 00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:27,520 Speaker 1: So usually would take an hour, we cut down to 928 00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:29,680 Speaker 1: a half an hour, or we take ninety minutes. We 929 00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:33,520 Speaker 1: cut it down to forty minutes. But after listening to 930 00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,719 Speaker 1: these multiple times and thinking about these women in the 931 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:43,360 Speaker 1: context of their backgrounds, different historical contexts, these different countries, 932 00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:48,680 Speaker 1: from South Africa to Kenya to Canada to America, we 933 00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,759 Speaker 1: often find ourselves talking about the patterns of the way 934 00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,480 Speaker 1: that a lot of women, I feel like they had 935 00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:58,440 Speaker 1: a choiceless choice, that they had to do the right thing, 936 00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,040 Speaker 1: that they have a moral compass that they couldn't ignore. 937 00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,680 Speaker 1: So we we talked about we were just talking about 938 00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:11,520 Speaker 1: this about how these these interviews really bring up kind 939 00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,719 Speaker 1: of common How how would you phrase it? As I 940 00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:19,120 Speaker 1: listened to a new interview, it is the norm to 941 00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,480 Speaker 1: hear something that will remind me of that there's a 942 00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:26,840 Speaker 1: common thread. There's so much commonality, whether it's two different 943 00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:31,520 Speaker 1: people whose lives were tremendously affected by being pen pals. 944 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:36,800 Speaker 1: Because I was thinking, yes, mean right whom Zela had 945 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:38,800 Speaker 1: a pen pal and that really made her think herself 946 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,880 Speaker 1: as a global citizen. And one of my guests, yes, 947 00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:46,120 Speaker 1: me and Abdelmajid, who is a Studentese Australian writer, her 948 00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:49,120 Speaker 1: parents ended up in Australia because of her mother had 949 00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:53,280 Speaker 1: a really good pen pal. I mean, that's unbelievable. And 950 00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,320 Speaker 1: so that that's been a common just those interesting they're 951 00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:01,800 Speaker 1: not coincidences, they're just you think about penpals as something 952 00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:06,600 Speaker 1: that we did for fun or amusement, cultural sharing before 953 00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:11,520 Speaker 1: there was the Internet, but it really did open horizons 954 00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:15,240 Speaker 1: for so many people. Or just being in the right 955 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:22,040 Speaker 1: place at the right time. People get opportunities that make 956 00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:25,040 Speaker 1: them who they are. So it's not you know, it's 957 00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:27,640 Speaker 1: not always in our control. We like to think that 958 00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:31,400 Speaker 1: we make decisions every day. We educate ourselves, we go 959 00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:35,880 Speaker 1: to college, we learn a skill, we pursue that as 960 00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:40,360 Speaker 1: a vocation or maybe an advocation or a hobby. But 961 00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:46,640 Speaker 1: life continually presents us with circumstances that really clearly define 962 00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:50,640 Speaker 1: our path. Granted, it is how you take that path 963 00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,480 Speaker 1: that makes you who you are. And my God preach 964 00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,520 Speaker 1: that is every woman. And you know, on this show, 965 00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:02,520 Speaker 1: it's just unbelievable how people step up to their circumstances 966 00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:04,959 Speaker 1: and also how they see tornadoes coming through their town 967 00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:09,400 Speaker 1: and everyone there's chaos, everyone's running and they say, Okay, well, 968 00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:13,400 Speaker 1: I guess I have to do something. And listening and then, 969 00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, really coming away from Buffy just makes me 970 00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,000 Speaker 1: think how lovely it is to have music in the 971 00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:24,480 Speaker 1: house and um, you know, having my mom have create 972 00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,840 Speaker 1: a home where singing and dancing and music playing and 973 00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:31,240 Speaker 1: blasting and her learning, Oh, I gotta learn this song 974 00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,040 Speaker 1: on this electric guitar and I want to play my 975 00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,520 Speaker 1: acoustic guitar for these songs. And you know when she played, 976 00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:38,360 Speaker 1: you know, she was in a good mood and that 977 00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,240 Speaker 1: was really nice for the house. And that really that's 978 00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:44,840 Speaker 1: all I think Buffy is an amazing artist and poet 979 00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:50,520 Speaker 1: and researcher, but she also really I think loved and 980 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:55,600 Speaker 1: appreciated like our love of music. But I also think 981 00:59:55,640 --> 01:00:02,320 Speaker 1: another major commonality is when Rose talks to someone who's 982 01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:06,479 Speaker 1: from my generation, someone who came of age in the 983 01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:11,560 Speaker 1: sixties or the seventies, she always asked this question, which is, 984 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,760 Speaker 1: why how do you feel about the fact that we're 985 01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:18,400 Speaker 1: still fighting today for the same things that you were 986 01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:25,960 Speaker 1: fighting for fifty years ago? And it just continually brings 987 01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:31,120 Speaker 1: home how hard it is to overcome the things that 988 01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:36,560 Speaker 1: we are fighting, whether it's sexual harassment or the record labels, 989 01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:43,800 Speaker 1: record recognition, gen valued right, women's health, which is health care, 990 01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:49,880 Speaker 1: the same conversations. Uh, sometimes there are conversations we thought 991 01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,640 Speaker 1: we had put to bed, and now here we are. 992 01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:55,280 Speaker 1: You know, the Supreme Court is hearing another case today, 993 01:00:56,120 --> 01:01:00,160 Speaker 1: so it's it's the never ending battle. And how how 994 01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:03,160 Speaker 1: do you I mean, I think that's the biggest challenges. 995 01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,960 Speaker 1: Do we ever reach a time when we can move 996 01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:16,360 Speaker 1: on to new So? All right, we got ten years, 997 01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:18,560 Speaker 1: we got this, so you know, I think the good 998 01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,880 Speaker 1: part with that is that, unlike before, we actually have 999 01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,040 Speaker 1: a roadmap and we actually have icons, We actually have 1000 01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:29,000 Speaker 1: people who have already paved and had this conversation like 1001 01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:31,160 Speaker 1: this is what we use. Not only can we use 1002 01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:33,320 Speaker 1: this now, but we have even more science to go 1003 01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:35,280 Speaker 1: behind it, and we can take what we gave you 1004 01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,640 Speaker 1: way back when, not way back, but back when, and 1005 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,840 Speaker 1: now add to it because it's ore. There's a foundation 1006 01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:44,880 Speaker 1: here now and then I'm very grateful for that as well, 1007 01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,000 Speaker 1: because to hear it is it is that these are 1008 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:51,000 Speaker 1: people who have paved away and have already kind of 1009 01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:55,720 Speaker 1: taken the big parts, the difficult parts by being the martyr, unfortunately, 1010 01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,520 Speaker 1: and now we're here and picking back up where they 1011 01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:00,960 Speaker 1: had Unfortunately. We would love to have have been to the 1012 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:02,480 Speaker 1: point where like we don't have to think about this 1013 01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,920 Speaker 1: ever again, hallelujah. But we're not. But instead now we 1014 01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:08,640 Speaker 1: have a little more of a clear roadmap of this 1015 01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:10,680 Speaker 1: is how it went this way, and we're to come 1016 01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:14,360 Speaker 1: back and reframe what we already saw can work and 1017 01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,439 Speaker 1: what we know is true, which is a freaking amazing thing. 1018 01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:20,720 Speaker 1: I will say, and believe me, I'm not an optimist. 1019 01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,760 Speaker 1: This is the phenomenal moment. Not usually I'm the one. 1020 01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,120 Speaker 1: This is everything is burning and we're all going to die, 1021 01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:30,400 Speaker 1: but it's nice to hear, we hear some of the 1022 01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:34,000 Speaker 1: things that yes, this has already been happening, they have 1023 01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,120 Speaker 1: been fighting. Is we're not alone, and they're giving they 1024 01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:40,240 Speaker 1: are giving us roadmaps, they're giving us, they're giving us 1025 01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:44,040 Speaker 1: models for how we can fight. They're also um showing 1026 01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,240 Speaker 1: us that we can lead our own fights. And I 1027 01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:48,640 Speaker 1: think that that's what I love so much about the 1028 01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:52,840 Speaker 1: podcast itself and using audio and in this way to 1029 01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:56,360 Speaker 1: share women's stories and their own voices. For so long, 1030 01:02:56,400 --> 01:03:00,120 Speaker 1: women's stories and their own voices um have been kept away. 1031 01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:03,600 Speaker 1: They've been hidden figures um, so to speak. And I 1032 01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:05,360 Speaker 1: think that that's one of the most exciting things about 1033 01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:09,720 Speaker 1: this younger generation. And with the democratization of sharing information, 1034 01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:12,960 Speaker 1: you can't keep women in the dark. You can't keep 1035 01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,520 Speaker 1: people of color and their stories on the sidelines, because 1036 01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:20,320 Speaker 1: they're front center. I totally agree, and that's definitely been 1037 01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:24,760 Speaker 1: the theme for today and for the past couple of episodes, 1038 01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:30,040 Speaker 1: and we love it, yeah, because I feel like these 1039 01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,600 Speaker 1: women that we've spoken about today and that you talked 1040 01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:36,000 Speaker 1: about on your podcast, that you talked with are inspirational 1041 01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:38,840 Speaker 1: and we didn't have that for a long time that 1042 01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,360 Speaker 1: women were doing these things, people of color were doing 1043 01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,840 Speaker 1: these things, we just weren't hearing about it. But now 1044 01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,640 Speaker 1: we're hearing about it. And just so many times I've 1045 01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:49,320 Speaker 1: heard someone we've talked to say, you know what, I 1046 01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:51,400 Speaker 1: saw a problem, no one is doing anything about it. 1047 01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,360 Speaker 1: I'll do it then, right right. I'm very excited by 1048 01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:58,680 Speaker 1: the idea of more and more people doing that thing. 1049 01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,160 Speaker 1: And I think that's the way we're going to see change. 1050 01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:04,720 Speaker 1: Because people in power I don't really have any reason 1051 01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:08,280 Speaker 1: to change. Some of them do because they recognize how 1052 01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:10,640 Speaker 1: I should help other people, I should uplift up their people. 1053 01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:13,160 Speaker 1: But they don't really have necessarily the same reason, and 1054 01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:15,400 Speaker 1: they don't see the same problems. Well, they haven't listened 1055 01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:18,640 Speaker 1: to the Buffy St. Murray's songs or the or or 1056 01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,440 Speaker 1: sat down with pumsil A and realized that, you know, 1057 01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:27,160 Speaker 1: the little people's liberation, the women's liberation, liberation of marginalized people, 1058 01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:29,480 Speaker 1: that you've been pushing, pushing, pushing because you want your 1059 01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,680 Speaker 1: you know, your all, your land or whatever you think 1060 01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:35,320 Speaker 1: it is. You have guess what your liberation is tied 1061 01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:37,560 Speaker 1: up in our liberation too, And you know, if you 1062 01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,520 Speaker 1: join our fight. Maybe men, you'll get to wear more 1063 01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:43,120 Speaker 1: colors to work or whatever it is that you haven't 1064 01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,479 Speaker 1: had yet. You know, there's so I think that's what's 1065 01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:50,760 Speaker 1: really exciting about what's coming next is UM is really 1066 01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:55,440 Speaker 1: winning over uh the institutional powers and having them realize 1067 01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:59,080 Speaker 1: that their liberation is tied up in our own fully agree. 1068 01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:05,960 Speaker 1: We always say sexism hurts everybody. Yes, yes, thank you 1069 01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:11,160 Speaker 1: both so much for being here. Thank you were very generous. 1070 01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,080 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. We love the podcast giving platforms 1071 01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:17,959 Speaker 1: to women and people of that is the number one 1072 01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:22,200 Speaker 1: thing that I love seeing in new media, in any media, 1073 01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:25,320 Speaker 1: giving people, allowing people to have a voice in the story. 1074 01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:28,600 Speaker 1: So thank you both of you for being a part 1075 01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,240 Speaker 1: of that. And then we also need to know where 1076 01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:34,240 Speaker 1: can we find you. You can find the Women anywhere 1077 01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:36,360 Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts on I Heart radio or Apple 1078 01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,560 Speaker 1: and you can follow us at the Women Pod on 1079 01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:42,880 Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter and uh yeah, tell us what you think, 1080 01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,000 Speaker 1: tell us what you want and U We'll try to 1081 01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:48,520 Speaker 1: give it to you. Yes, please go check that out listeners, 1082 01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:52,280 Speaker 1: it's a delight UM. And if you want to email us, 1083 01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,440 Speaker 1: you can. Our email is sept Media mom stuff at 1084 01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,080 Speaker 1: iHeart media dot com. You can find us on Twitter 1085 01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:00,520 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff Podcast or on Instagram that Stuff I've 1086 01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:03,200 Speaker 1: Never Told You. Thanks as always to a super producer, 1087 01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:07,160 Speaker 1: Andrew Howard Andrew, and thanks to you for listening. Stuff 1088 01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:09,600 Speaker 1: I'll Never Told You production of I Heart Radio. For 1089 01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:12,040 Speaker 1: more podcasts from I Heart Radio is a diheart radio app, 1090 01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:14,440 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.