1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: and do not necessarily represent those of iHeartMedia, How Stuff Works, 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: or its employees. 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 2: Robert Graysmith is the author of a book called Zodiac. 6 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 2: Well what happens thirty three years later when you still 7 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 2: don't have the killer? Are there still people working on 8 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: this case? Are there still tips coming in anything to 9 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 2: this investigation? 10 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 3: Absolutely? 11 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 4: You know, we were pretty certain we know who he was, 12 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 4: and he died with bombs in his basement and the 13 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 4: Zodiac bomb formula, a disc in his computer that said Zodiac. 14 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure that the cases solved. So much information 15 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 4: and so much attention was focused on the prime suspect 16 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 4: in the case, The man who actually was the first suspect, 17 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 4: who knew all the victims, who stalk them, who had 18 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 4: the skills and intelligence to write the letters and to 19 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 4: commit the crimes, was literally stopped at in his tracks. 20 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 4: He was watched, eventually sent to prison for child molesting, 21 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 4: during which there were no more activities from the Zodiac. 22 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 5: The suspect that was focused on and highlighted in the 23 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 5: film and in Grace Smith's book, and to a certain 24 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 5: extent even for Tusking Armstrong, Arthur Lee Allen was what 25 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 5: they call a good suspect. 26 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 6: It's probably Arthur Lee Allen. 27 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 7: That was what all the main guys investigating it here thought. 28 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 7: I think Arthur Lee Allen was the guy. 29 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 8: I enjoy a good tussle. That Hey, there were coincidences 30 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 8: that tended to point towards me and kill him just 31 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 8: for the pleasure of it. Thank God for our constitution, 32 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 8: because that says a person is innocent until proven guilty. 33 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 8: A man in a mask robbed, tied, and stabbed him, 34 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 8: leaving them for dad. Subject stated, I want to report 35 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 8: a murder, no a double murder. 36 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 7: I did it. 37 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 9: The man who wore a medieval style executionershood, carried a 38 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 9: knife and gun and intended. 39 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: To use them. 40 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 10: They haven't arrested me because they can't prove a thing. 41 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 10: I'm not the damn Zodiac. 42 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 9: Who is the Zodiac and. 43 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:11,839 Speaker 7: Where is he from? 44 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 11: iHeartRadio, Houstuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. This is monster the 45 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 11: Zodiac killer. The Zodiac case is rife with mystery, first 46 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 11: and foremost the Zodiac's true identity. Up to this point, 47 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 11: there'd only been vague glimpses of the man behind the moniker. 48 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 11: Witness descriptions were cloudy. He was only ever seen in 49 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 11: the dark of night or behind a terrifying costume. We 50 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 11: heard a strange voice call into a TV show, but 51 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 11: it wasn't actually the Zodiac. So who was this guy? 52 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 11: For years it seemed like there would never be an answer, 53 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 11: But then a name, a face, and a voice were 54 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 11: finally attached to the zodiac publicly, one man became the 55 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 11: most visible and likely suspect. 56 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 12: One of the prime suspects in the Zodiac case over 57 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 12: the years was a man who was initially identified for 58 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 12: reasons we don't know, in October of nineteen sixty nine. 59 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: This is Zodiac expert Michael Buttererfield. 60 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 12: Arthur Lee Allen was a former school teacher who was 61 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 12: working as a janitor, largely because he had been caught 62 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 12: molesting children and had lost his job for some reason. 63 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 12: John Lynch of the Lao Police Department went and questioned 64 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 12: Arthur Lee Allen and on October sixth, nineteen sixty nine, 65 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 12: regarding his whereabouts at the time of the stabbing at 66 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 12: Lake barri Essa. Allan said that he was at Salt 67 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 12: Point Ranch and he had killed some chickens, and that 68 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 12: he didn't have any involved in the crime. 69 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: Salt Point is about ninety miles west of Lake Veriessa. 70 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: It's close but not close enough, and with no direct 71 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: evidence linking him to the murder, Allan was let go. 72 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 12: After that, the police forgot about Arthur Lee Allen, and 73 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 12: then in nineteen seventy one, an estranged friend of Alan's 74 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 12: went to police and said that prior to the Zodiac murders, 75 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 12: Arthur Lee Allen had professed his desire to kill people 76 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 12: and write letters to the media calling himself Zodiac. The 77 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 12: police investigated. The Valeo Police and the San Francisco Police, 78 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 12: including Bill Armstrong and Dave Toski, spent about two weeks 79 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 12: investigating Arthur Lee Allen and gathering information, talking to people 80 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 12: who knew him, including his brother and sister in law, 81 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 12: and the individual who made this claim, Don Cheney. Don 82 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 12: Cheney was first friends with Arthur Lee Allen's brother Ron, 83 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 12: and that's how he got to know Arthur Lee Allen, 84 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 12: or who was normally referred to as Lee. They became friends. 85 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 12: They would hunt and fish and drink together and do things. 86 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 12: But then at a certain point it appears that Arthur 87 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 12: Lee Allen attempted to molest one of Don Cheney's children. 88 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 12: Don Cheney complained to Lee's brother Ron, and was adamant 89 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 12: that something had happened and he was very upset about it, 90 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 12: and he apparently severed his relationship with Arthur Lee Allen 91 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 12: at that time. According to Cheney's timing of events, this 92 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 12: occurred sometime in nineteen sixty eight, the last time he 93 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 12: had ever talked to Arthur Lee Allen. 94 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: According to Vallejo PD Detective George Bowert, Alan told Cheney 95 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: he wanted to write a novel, and in this novel, 96 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: a character would do the following things, kill random couples, 97 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: taunt police with letters, recounting his crimes, to disguise himself, 98 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: secure a flashlight to his gun so he could shoot 99 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: in the dark, call himself Zodiac. Cheney was questioned again 100 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: about this story years later, and these new details were 101 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: recorded by Detective Bowart. Cheney recalled that Alan was gifted 102 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: a Zodiac brand watch by his mother, and on the 103 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: face of this watch there was a symbol a circle 104 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: with a cross through it. Cheney said Alan wanted to 105 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: sign letters with the same cross circle symbol from his watch. 106 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: Cheney also claims that Alan wanted to fool women into 107 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: stopping their cars in isolated areas. He would claim they 108 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: had problems with their tires, then loosen their lug nuts 109 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: and take them captive. Shortly after this, investigators learned of 110 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: a connection to Darlene Ferron, who was shot and killed 111 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: by the Zodiac at Blue Rock Springs. As it turns out, 112 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: Alan's family home was just a fraction of a mile 113 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: away from the restaurant where Darlene worked, and Alan supposedly 114 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: said he had become friendly with a waitress at that restaurant. 115 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: Police records say an unidentified man named Lee often visited Darlene, 116 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: so it's possible Alan was stalking Darlene. 117 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 12: There was also a story that Arthur Lee Allen may 118 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 12: have used a friend's car to commit the murder at 119 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 12: Blue Rock Springs, because the surviving victims said that the 120 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 12: killer was driving a car similar to Darlene's brown cordare 121 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 12: Alan was working at a gas station where a friend 122 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 12: of his had apparently put a car up for sale, 123 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 12: and the theory was that he had taken the car 124 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 12: and committed the crime. Because Alan did not own a 125 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 12: Corbert or any vehicle similar to one, and eventually, in 126 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 12: nineteen seventy two, the San Francisco Police Department obtained a 127 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 12: warrant to search Arthur Lee Allen's trailer in Santa Rosa, California. 128 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: On September fourteenth, nineteen seventy two, San Francisco Police obtained 129 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: a warrant and searched Allan's trailer. Here's a partial list 130 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: of what police were looking for. Writings, letters, and cryptograms 131 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: in the same handwriting as suspect letters. Any pistol with 132 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: a flashlight attached to the barrel, a blood stained portion 133 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: of cloth from a striped gray and white shirt, the 134 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: wallet or identification of Paul Stein taxi keys from a 135 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: yellow cab, a black executioner type hood with a circle 136 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: and cross on it, a large knife with a wooden handle. 137 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 12: They did find some oddities in his home, like dead 138 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 12: squirrels and his refrigerator that he was using for his 139 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 12: biology is, some sex toys, guns, things like that. 140 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: Investigators found many bizarre things, but they didn't find any 141 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: of the materials they were looking for, so they had 142 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: no hard evidence to use against Allan. They did, however, 143 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: obtain his fingerprints and samples of his writing. Those were 144 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: thoroughly cross examined with the Zodiac letters, and. 145 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 12: That's when they learned that his fingerprints in handwriting didn't match. 146 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 12: And so essentially Arthur Lee Allen was abandoned as a suspect. 147 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: Yet again, Arthur Lee Allen was let off the hook. 148 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: Despite some suspicious activity, Allan was in the clear until. 149 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 12: Years later a best selling book came out called Zodiac, 150 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 12: written by Robert Graysmith. 151 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 4: I still talk to the investigators on the case. Inspector 152 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 4: David Toski, who was the main man on the case. 153 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 4: He believes it was Arthur Lee Allen. The main man 154 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 4: in Wallejo, George bauerd who's retired now, he thinks it 155 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 4: was Arthur Lee. 156 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 7: Virtually all the top. 157 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 4: Investigators, men who I really respect, believe that this was 158 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 4: the man. 159 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: That was Robert Graysmith. In the early seventies, he was 160 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: a political cartoonist at the San Francisco Chronicle. Gray Smith 161 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: developed an obsession with the Zodiac case and so he 162 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: was doing his own private investigation. In nineteen eighty six, 163 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: gray Smith published a book containing his complete findings on 164 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: the case. It was simply titled Zodiac and It went 165 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: on to sell over three million copies. 166 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 12: And in that book, gray Smith had given Arthur Lee 167 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 12: Allen the pseudonym Bob hall Star. A lot of people 168 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 12: started to figure out that Arthur Lee Allen was Bob 169 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 12: hall Star. People in the Bay Area realized he was 170 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 12: the person they were talking about, and that book, of course, 171 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 12: because it was a best selling book, had a tremendous 172 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 12: influence on the public and the media. 173 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 9: Arthur Lee Allen, a long time the Lahoe resident and 174 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 9: former professional student, is the man many still believed to 175 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 9: be the dreaded Zodiac. In Robert grace Mis's best selling 176 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 9: book Zodiac, the suspect's brother and sister in law say 177 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 9: that Allan often spoke of man as the most dangerous game. 178 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 9: His own family at one time found him terrifying. 179 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: Grey Smith connected many dots between Arthur Lee Allen and 180 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: the Zodiac, one of which is that Alan was allegedly 181 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: in Riverside when Sherry Joe Bates was murdered in nineteen 182 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: sixty six. The Valeo Police Department had placed him in 183 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: the area, and when questioned, Alan said he was in 184 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: nearby Pomona during the Bates murder. He also called in 185 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: sick from his job on November one, the day after 186 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: Bates was found dead. It's possible Allan missed work to 187 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: hide facial wounds inflicted by his victim. You may also 188 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: remember that Zodiac left behind a footprint at Lake Barriessa. 189 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 1: That footprint was made by a military boot. This suggested 190 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: the Zodiac had some military experience. Arthur Lee Allen had 191 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: numerous connections to the military. His father was the commander 192 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: of a nuclear submarine at nearby Mare Island. Allan himself 193 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: was in the Navy for less than two years before 194 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: being discharged other than honorably. While there, Graysmith believes Allan 195 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: developed an interest in codes and ciphers. Much of this 196 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: is hearsay. The Zodiac book laid out one undeniable mark 197 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: against Alan. Gray Smith points out that the last official 198 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: Zodiac letter came on July eighth, nineteen seventy four. Only 199 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: a few months later Allan would go to prison on 200 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: child molestation charges. During Allen's time in prison, there were 201 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: no Zodiac letters. Then, in nineteen seventy eight, just months 202 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: after Alan was released, a new letter showed up at 203 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: the San Francisco Chronicle. 204 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 13: Dear editor, this is the Zodiac speaking, I am back 205 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 13: with you. I am waiting for a good movie about me. 206 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 13: Who will play me? I am now in control of 207 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 13: all things yours truly, Zodiac Guess, San Francisco Police Department zero. 208 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: It's important to note here that this letter was never authenticated. 209 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: We'll get into that in a later episode. Still, many 210 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: investigators found this coincidence to be striking. Gray Smith built 211 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 1: a massive case of circumstantial evidence against Arthur Lee Allen, 212 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: and it was enough to convince a lot of readers 213 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 1: of his guilt. Was Alan truly the villain gray Smith 214 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: made him out to be, or was Alan just an 215 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 1: incredibly strange individual. We asked someone who knew Alan personally. 216 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 6: He had him a few chipmunks at his house. One 217 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 6: time he came in the shop and after he had 218 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 6: a job up in the foothills, and he carried one 219 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 6: around on his shoulder, and I think that was from 220 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 6: when he worked up in the up in the hills 221 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 6: where he you know, he said, come on up and 222 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 6: I'll show your kids how to sail. 223 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: This is Carl Eubner. He ran a blacksmith shop in 224 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: downtown Valeo. Arthur Lee Allen came by frequently. 225 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 6: He came down to the Leo and came into the 226 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 6: shop and said, you know, why don't you bring him 227 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 6: several times? In fact, why don't you bring the kids 228 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 6: up and I'll, you know, teach him the sailing. And 229 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 6: I said to him, I wife, well, are going to 230 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 6: do that sometime, you know. But we never did, and 231 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 6: I found out he was canned anyway, and that ended that, 232 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 6: so I never did go up there. 233 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: We also talked with Mark Eubner carl Son at the time, 234 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: he was just a kid. 235 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 14: When I heard that story, my first reaction was he 236 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 14: certainly wouldn't mess with the kids of a friend of his. 237 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 14: I'd be surprised. 238 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 6: I knew Arthur Lee Allen in school. He was half 239 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 6: a grade behind me, but we knew each other. And 240 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 6: then later on he would come in his shop once 241 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 6: in a while. He worked on his car, so he 242 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 6: did blocksmith's work. We made things like gates, railings, and 243 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 6: we'd weld something up for him. Lee Allen at a 244 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 6: time worked at Ace Hardware, down half a dozen blocks 245 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 6: in the shop on Tennessee Street. 246 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: Eventually, Mark and Carl started interviewing each other, and Mark 247 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: had a lot of questions for his dad. 248 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 14: What about then he had the rear end done though. 249 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, well he was one instant. He had the 250 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 6: you know whatever ranz on the car and the old cars, 251 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 6: they they're pretty heavy, and so we did some work 252 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 6: on it. He came and picked it up and and 253 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 6: he just grabbed it and put it up over his 254 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 6: head and walked out. And one of the guys kind 255 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 6: of shook. He said, what the heck? 256 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 7: You know? 257 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 6: But I don't think it was that so much that 258 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 6: he was so strong. It was just odd that he 259 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 6: did it that way. But most guys wouldn't do that. 260 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 6: But he was pretty strong guy. He came in one 261 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 6: time and and said, hey, I have this letter. He 262 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 6: just said that he was no longer a suspect in 263 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 6: the Zodiac case. 264 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 14: I was thinking about this earlier. So like when he 265 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 14: came in with the with the letter. Was he just saying, 266 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 14: here's the letter, I'm exonerary. It was like, Carl'll trust me, man, 267 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 14: this isn't me. I mean, I'm wondering how if he 268 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 14: was emphatic at all or just about no. 269 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 6: He he was just I wouldn't say blase, but he 270 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 6: just came in. I said, hey, I got you something 271 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 6: to show or whatever he said. And then here's a 272 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 6: letter from the Sonoma County Sheriff that says that I'm 273 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 6: not a suspect. 274 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 14: Or any more. 275 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, whatever the wording was, that I'm not a suspect anymore. 276 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 14: Because I think you also told me once that he 277 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 14: needed that letter because he kind of couldn't get a job. 278 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 14: He had to have that letter so he could go 279 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 14: apply for a. 280 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 6: H He didn't have to show the letter, but he 281 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 6: did if it ever came up and said, hey, look, 282 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:25,959 Speaker 6: I think a lot of people were a little bit 283 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 6: leery of him probably after that. As far as I know, 284 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 6: he did not have a girlfriend, never mentioned it, and 285 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 6: never seen him with one. He was kind of a 286 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 6: loner in that respect. I don't want to describe him 287 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 6: as a loaner, but I don't know. But he did 288 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 6: have friends, I guess. I never really seen him with anybody. 289 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 6: It was always by himself. 290 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 14: But let me just I'm curious, so, like, if you 291 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 14: saw his name in the paper or saw his name 292 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 14: in the news, what did you think, Like, Hey, that's 293 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 14: my friend, did. 294 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 6: You Yeah, we weren't qualified, We weren't Yeah, buddies. I 295 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 6: knew him from school and a little bit after school 296 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 6: and were yeah, we were friendly one good time And 297 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 6: did you. 298 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 14: Ever think he did it? 299 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 6: It ran through my mind, of course, yeah, yeah. 300 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 14: It was just weird to think that I knew the 301 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 14: guy as a kid. I knew my dad knew him. 302 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 14: It's one of those things that I would love to 303 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 14: know what the real answer is. I would love to 304 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 14: know if it was him. I've seen other suspects name, 305 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 14: but obviously the only one that is in my head 306 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 14: is Lee Allen. I certainly believe he could have been. 307 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 14: I mean again, I didn't know him like my dad, 308 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 14: but just all the stuff I've read and seen about him, 309 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 14: it seems plausible. I'd say that it certainly seems plausible 310 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 14: that he could have been the guy. 311 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 12: In December of nineteen ninety, another individual from Arthur Lee 312 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 12: Allen's past, another person who he had a falling out with, 313 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 12: came forward and claimed that shortly before the Zodiac murdered 314 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 12: cab driver Paul Stein, Arthur Lee Allen had professed his 315 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 12: desire to kill a cab driver and claimed that he 316 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 12: was the Zodiac. This was Ralph Spinelli, who was a 317 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 12: career criminal. He had been arrested for several charges. Of 318 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 12: armed robbery and was probably facing the rest of his 319 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 12: life in prison, and he approached authorities asking to make 320 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 12: a deal. He didn't want to go to prison. In 321 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 12: an exchange, he would name Alan as the Zodiac. 322 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: By the time Spinelli came forward, the Gray Smith book 323 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: had been out for years. Allan's involvement in the Zodiac 324 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: case was now public, and with this new testimony pointing 325 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: in Allan, investigators once again took him seriously as a suspect. 326 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 12: The Valeo Police Department relaunched their investigation of Arthur Lee Allen. 327 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 12: In nineteen ninety one. The Valeo Police Department consulted the FBI, 328 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 12: and a profiler told them that if Allan was indeed 329 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 12: the Zodiac, it was likely he still had some trophies 330 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 12: or belongings from the victims and the crimes. They got 331 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 12: another search warrant for his home, and the news broke 332 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 12: into media. 333 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: Here's a partial list of what police found in Allen's 334 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: home in nineteen ninety one. Four pipe bombs, a Ruger 335 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: twenty two caliber revolver, a Zodiac brand watch, news clippings 336 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: about the Zodiac case, a large hunting knife, a small flashlight, 337 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: a royal manual typewriter. This typewriter had an important connection. 338 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 1: The letter's claiming responsibility for the murder of Sherry Joe 339 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: Bates were made by a Royal model typewriter. There were 340 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,479 Speaker 1: some things the police were able to determine at this point. 341 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: Alan's shoe size matched the Zodiac's bootprint from Lake Barriessa. 342 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: Both used large knives, and both used the same guns 343 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: and the same type of ammunition. Alan's home was searched 344 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: several more times after this, and they found even more 345 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: suspicious objects, but they never found anything that directly linked 346 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: him to the Zodiac murders. For the third time, Arthur 347 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: Lee Allen was exonerated, at least officially. 348 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 7: Well, good cops have instincts, and when Toski talked to Alan, 349 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 7: he creeped him out, you know, he thought he had 350 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 7: a live one that counts for a lot in an investigation. 351 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: This is San Francisco Chronicle journalist Kevin Fagan. He's the 352 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,719 Speaker 1: current reporter signed to the Zodiac case. As part of 353 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: that role, he's talked with all the lead investigators and 354 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: journalists involved in the story, and he knows more about 355 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: the prime suspect than just about anybody else. We went 356 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: to Kevin Fagan to understand what investigators finally concluded about Alan. 357 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 7: Everyone who went to that house came away feeling, wow, 358 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 7: this might well be the guy. He was a little 359 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 7: shaky in his denials that he was the Zodiac. He 360 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 7: was eager to talk a lot. 361 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 2: This is the Vallejo man many investigators considered to be 362 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 2: the notorious Zodiac Killer, and this is the first time 363 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 2: his picture has been revealed. His name is Arthur Lee Allen. 364 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 8: Are you the Zodiac Killer? There would be nothing farther 365 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 8: from my mind. 366 00:22:54,520 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 10: No, I'm certainly, most certainly not the Zodiac Killer. 367 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 7: He just came off like a possible guy. He get 368 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 7: a tingle and that's what I heard from everyone who 369 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 7: talked to him back in the day. Allen has been 370 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 7: the only one named directly as a suspect by any 371 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 7: of the investigators, and he cropped up through Dave Toski, 372 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 7: who was the main homicide inspector in San Francisco who 373 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 7: was working the case actively during the height of the 374 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 7: Zodiac craze. He kept going back to Alan year after 375 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 7: year after year. But he's been the guy for a 376 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 7: lot of investigators. 377 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 12: There's so many lies I caught him man his denying 378 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 12: things didn't have any relevance anymore. 379 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: That was the LAOPD Captain Roy Conway talking about Alan. 380 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: The LAYOPD Detective George Bauert also spoke about Allan's guilt. 381 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 8: I feel that there are so many areas that point 382 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 8: directly at Arthur Lee Allen that I feel that he 383 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 8: is a viable suspect in all probability of the Zodiac. 384 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 7: Alan had a lot of aspects that tied him to 385 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 7: the crimes. He owned boots identical to those worn by 386 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 7: the Zodiac. According to the Prince taking it the scenes. 387 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 7: His favorite short story was The Most Dangerous Game and 388 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 7: the Zodiac. In one of his letters, talked about how 389 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 7: he loved to hunt humans because they're the most dangerous game. 390 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 7: It wasn't that obscure a story at the time, but 391 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 7: it wasn't on everyone's mind. The fact that Alan mentioned that, 392 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 7: and the fact that that got mentioned in the letter 393 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 7: raises your eyebrows pretty high. He was picked out in 394 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 7: a photo lineup by one of the victims, and he 395 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 7: wore a watch that had Zodiac crosshairs on it. A 396 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 7: lot of things matched. He looked like the. 397 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: Sketch and remember, investigators also had the testimony of Don Cheney, 398 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 1: an old friend of Alan's. 399 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 7: Yeah, Cheney had conversations with Alan that disturbed him. He 400 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 7: thought Allan was making statements that fingered himself as the Zodiac. 401 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 7: Now I have to say that there are quite a 402 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 7: few people who have gone to the police with similar 403 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 7: accounts on different people. So yeah, yeah, I just have 404 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 7: to throw it into the mix and make what you 405 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 7: can make of it. 406 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: Alan later retold his story about killing chickens during the 407 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: Lake Buriesa attack. On this occasion, he told Tosky he 408 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 1: kept large, bloody knives in his trunk. 409 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 7: Bloody knives in the trunk. Yeah, that just came off creepy. 410 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 7: You start building up things like that, and the boots 411 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 7: and the watch that he had, and the statements to 412 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 7: his friend, it stacks up pretty high. There was enough 413 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 7: there that my colleague at the Chronicle, Robert Graysmith, wrote 414 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 7: a whole book naming Alan as the guy. 415 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 4: As far as I can tell, Alan seems to be 416 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 4: the best suspect that come up with. 417 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 7: And the last time I talked to Robert, which wasn't 418 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 7: that long ago, he was convinced that Alan was still 419 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 7: the Zodiac. It's one of those things that you know 420 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 7: until it's over, it's never over. But a lot of 421 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 7: things point to this guy. The fact that he was 422 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 7: never charged, never convicted, leaves it an open question. He 423 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 7: seemed to have a somewhat sad life. He was hounded 424 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 7: by people who thought he was this killer. At least 425 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 7: that's how he put it. He didn't like being named, 426 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 7: he didn't like getting the visits from police. 427 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 8: Not the only way that heat will stop is well, 428 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 8: if I die, that'll cure it for me, or a 429 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 8: Zodiac himself confesses. 430 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's difficult to say. If he really was the Zodiac, 431 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 7: then he deserved all the attention he got. If he wasn't, 432 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 7: then that's unfortunate because even a criminal should have a 433 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 7: chance to rehab his life and move on. I don't know. 434 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 7: I never met Allen. The people I know who did, 435 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 7: I thought he was disturbing, a low life, not a 436 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 7: good guy. My impression is he did not live a 437 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 7: joy ass life leading up to his death in nineteen 438 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 7: ninety two. He had this cloud over him the whole time. 439 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 10: They you haven't arrested me because they can't prove a thing. 440 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 10: I'm not the damn Zodiac, the. 441 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 2: Zodiac Killer or victim of years of police harassment, Arthur 442 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 2: Lee Allen took the answer to his grave. 443 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 11: Next time on Monster the Zodiac Killer. 444 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 12: There's some serious, serious problems with Don Cheney and his credibility, 445 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 12: and he's the foundation for all of this. 446 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 15: The Zodiac writing was very quickly and rapidly written, and 447 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 15: that was of the opinion that it was the natural 448 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 15: writing of that person. And there were numerous consistent differences 449 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 15: with the writing of Arthur Lee Alley. 450 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 12: The idea that Michael Michau could have accurately identified anyone 451 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 12: was questionable even in nineteen sixty nine, so much so 452 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 12: that Ed Rust actually wrote that. 453 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: Into the report. 454 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 3: In my mind article we ou out of six foot five, 455 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty plus pounds had walked up to 456 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 3: the car, Michael Micheau would have said this guy was huge, 457 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 3: or something along that line. 458 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 12: It's got to be a really terrible place to be 459 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 12: to know that there's a book out there that claims 460 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 12: you're the Zodiac and people believe it. 461 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 8: I've never been known for good luck. I guess this 462 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 8: is pretty much living proof of it. 463 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 10: I couldn't murder anyone. 464 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 11: Monster The Zodiac Killer is a fifteen episode podcast produced 465 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 11: by iHeartRadio, House stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. Donald Albright 466 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 11: and I are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV, 467 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 11: alongside producers Meredith Steedman, Mason Lindsay, and Christina Dana. Jason 468 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 11: Hope is executive producer on behalf of House stuff Works, 469 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 11: along with producers Trevor Young, Miranda Hawkins, ben Keebrick, and 470 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 11: Josh Thain. Scott Benjamin provides additional voice talent. Matt Frederick 471 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 11: is our host. Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. 472 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 11: If you haven't already, make sure to check out the 473 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 11: first season of Monster called Atlanta Monster, about the Atlanta 474 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 11: child murders from the late seventies to the early eighties. 475 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 11: Download the ten episode season right now. Have questions or comments, 476 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 11: email us at Monster at houstuffworks dot com, or you 477 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 11: can call us at one eight three, three two eight 478 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 11: five six six sixty seven. Thanks for listening.