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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. Welcome to the Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: This Weekend Podcast with David Gura, Christina Raffini, and Lisa Matteo.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us for today's selection of conversations from

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 3: You can listen to our favorite discussions right here on

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Speaker 3: the podcast, but also make sure to join us live

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Speaker 3: every Saturday and Sunday morning, starting at seven am Easter.

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Speaker 4: We're on Bloomberg Television, Radio and the Bloomberg Business App,

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Speaker 4: bringing you unique takes and in depth interviews on news, politics, lifestyle,

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Speaker 4: and culture.

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Speaker 2: All right, President Trump says a potential deal with Iron

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Speaker 2: as we've been talking about, may now be within reach,

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Speaker 2: announcing on social media last night that the deal is

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Speaker 2: quote largely negotiated and could be finalized soon.

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Speaker 3: But even its the White House signals optimism about diplomacy.

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Speaker 3: There are some major questions that remain about what concessions

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Speaker 3: may be on the table, whether Congress will have any

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Speaker 3: role in these negotiations, and how members of President Trump's

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Speaker 3: own party are responding to the possibility of a deal.

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Speaker 2: Back with us, we have Jamina Rossecci also joining us,

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Speaker 2: our Bloomberg's managing editor of America's Weekend, Kevin whitelaw and politicals.

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Speaker 2: White House reporter Sophia Kai. Sophia, you're our guest this morning.

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Speaker 2: Let's start with you. Thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 3: I'm wondering.

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Speaker 2: I think I know the answer, but I'm going to

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Speaker 2: ask it anyway. I'm wondering if we've heard any updates

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Speaker 2: from the White House. You know, we had this truth

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Speaker 2: social post very bullish on potentially reaching a deal from

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Speaker 2: the President last night, and so far it's been a

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Speaker 2: little bit quiet this morning. Any inclination that this is

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Speaker 2: real and that officials are going to be able to

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Speaker 2: get something across the line in time for us to

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Speaker 2: announce before Monday morning starts.

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Speaker 5: You know, we've got a holiday weekend, so of course

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Speaker 5: Tuesday is another big day. But we've not heard anything

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Speaker 5: since last night. You know, this Iran deal has been

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Speaker 5: very complex, and what we saw White House officials and

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Speaker 5: a lot of White House allies yesterday I do was

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Speaker 5: they started batting down criticism from within their own party

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Speaker 5: about contours of a deal that nobody really knows what's

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Speaker 5: in it.

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Speaker 2: A lot of criticism so we've been talking about I mean,

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Speaker 2: not only from very strong allies of the president, including

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Speaker 2: Lindsay Graham, Ted Cruz and others, but even from Mike

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Speaker 2: Roger and a White House official got into a spat

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Speaker 2: with former Secretary of State under Trump Mike Pompeo, who

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Speaker 2: had been the person when I was covering him who

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Speaker 2: was the advocate of pulling out of the original Iron

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Speaker 2: nuclear deal, basically saying this is not far enough. Either

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Speaker 2: finished the job or why did we do it in

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Speaker 2: the first place.

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Speaker 5: That's exactly it. Including Senator Lindsay Graham. I mean, we

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Speaker 5: saw a spat between Senator Ted Cruz and Alex bruce Witz,

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Speaker 5: who's an important White House ally that only raises more

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Speaker 5: questions about what is in the deal. Where are the

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Speaker 5: conversations now and where is the administration's read line about

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Speaker 5: what they're able to accept? I think, you know, very

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Speaker 5: rarely do you see this sort of widespread criticism of

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Speaker 5: conservatives of their own allies that they've been working with

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Speaker 5: on Iran Jabana.

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Speaker 3: Let me ask you a basic fundamental question here is

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Speaker 3: what are we talking about. I look at the Wall

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Speaker 3: Street Journal this morning. The agreement, if completed, wouldn't achieve

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Speaker 3: Trump's main goal of preventing Iran from ever acquiring a

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Speaker 3: nuclear weapon. We you and the two of us have

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Speaker 3: talked about this over many weeks, the evolving rationale for

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Speaker 3: this conflict in the Middle East, but so central to it,

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Speaker 3: and the refrain we've hear it over and over again

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Speaker 3: from the President is Iran can never be allowed to

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Speaker 3: have a nuclear weapon. Now, it seems again from the

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Speaker 3: reporting that we're piecing together this morning, that might not

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Speaker 3: be fundamental to this, that might not be a core

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Speaker 3: tenant of this fourteen point plan that the President is

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Speaker 3: talking about.

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Speaker 6: Looka, it goes back to what we've been discussing of

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Speaker 6: the course of the last three months, which is what

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Speaker 6: exactly were the US's military objectives here, and they seem

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Speaker 6: to evolve and change over the course of the war

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Speaker 6: since the Seas Fire, but more recently President Trump has

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Speaker 6: been reiterating that the main goal was to ensure that

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Speaker 6: Iran would not go on to develop a nuclear weapon.

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Speaker 6: Does this MoU or this framework it's going to be

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Speaker 6: announced address that We simply don't know because we don't

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Speaker 6: have the details yet. But what has emerged is another

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Speaker 6: essential issue that didn't exist before the war, and that

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Speaker 6: is the fate of the Strait of hormones. Before the war, remember,

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Speaker 6: ships were passing through unconditionally. There was no concern at

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Speaker 6: all about this key maritime passage. And here we are

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Speaker 6: three months later. Iran have identified that this is a

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Speaker 6: key point of leverage that they are going to continue

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Speaker 6: to have over Gulf States and over the global economy,

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Speaker 6: and they are using that leverage to extract concessions from

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Speaker 6: the US on what it would appear to be economic sanctions,

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Speaker 6: on some relief on the acts, fund freezing and so forth.

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Speaker 6: And that is just being addressed in the first phase

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Speaker 6: of these discussions, as are being widely reported. The nuclear file,

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Speaker 6: which is central to why the US entered into the

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Speaker 6: war in the first place, is going to be deferred

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Speaker 6: to later. And we don't even know at this point

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Speaker 6: what exactly Iran are committing to, and judging by again

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Speaker 6: what news outlets are reported, Iran are only making verbal

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Speaker 6: commitments at this point that they will not go on

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Speaker 6: to build a nuclear weapon. Again, there seems to be

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Speaker 6: a lot of difference between the various time frames that

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Speaker 6: the US are pushing forward versus what Iran are willing

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Speaker 6: to accept on their suspension of uranium enrichment and then

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Speaker 6: of course, the fate of that highly enriched uranium stock file,

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Speaker 6: with various reports again over the last couple of days

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Speaker 6: saying that the new Supreme Leader is saying that under

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Speaker 6: no circumstances will that highly enriched stockpile actually ever leave Iran.

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Speaker 6: Another option is for that stockpile to be diluted. And

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Speaker 6: by the way, this is just the nuclear file. We're

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Speaker 6: not even talking about the proxies that Iran fund around

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Speaker 6: the region, which is a clear point of consideration for

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Speaker 6: Gulf states and for Israel. And the other point is

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Speaker 6: the ballistic weapons that they're still sitting on. And yes,

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Speaker 6: the US and Israel have managed to inflict a lot

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Speaker 6: of military damage and industry damage, but Iran still have

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Speaker 6: the ability to go back and rebuild over the coming years.

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Speaker 6: And I think this is to be a key point

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Speaker 6: of concern as we think about the long term effects

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Speaker 6: of this war. And here's the cam Kevin.

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Speaker 2: I do want to pick up on what Jimana was

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Speaker 2: talking about, what we've talked about as well, and that's

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Speaker 2: these disconnects already from the messaging we're seeing from these

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Speaker 2: two governments, especially when it comes to two things. One

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Speaker 2: is the straight and the other is the nuclear program.

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Speaker 2: New York Times is reporting two US officials said that

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Speaker 2: Tehran has agreed to give up a stockpile of highly

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Speaker 2: enrich uranium, but three senior Iranian officials so the deal

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Speaker 2: said nothing about the fate of Iran's nuclear program, and

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Speaker 2: that's something that's going to be negotiated within thirty to

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Speaker 2: sixty days. Critics of the way these negotiations have been

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Speaker 2: going even before now have pointed out there has been

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Speaker 2: a sequencing issue. If the US wants to do this

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Speaker 2: in stages, it has to give up its leverage, which

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Speaker 2: is the blockade in the Strait, in order to get

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Speaker 2: to those nuclear talks. At which point, why would Iron

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Speaker 2: agree to any of this?

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Speaker 7: Well, look, I think this has been a problem all

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Speaker 7: along with these negotiations have gone on in you know,

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Speaker 7: there were nuclear time hawks. They were then cut short

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Speaker 7: by the attacks. So I think we have a massive,

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Speaker 7: massive trust problem on both sides. We clearly have very

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Speaker 7: different messaging to in many cases, I think domestic audiences

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Speaker 7: that about what is in the deal and what isn't

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Speaker 7: in the deal. I think the best way to probably

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Speaker 7: think about this is this may well be a brief

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Speaker 7: cease fire, whether that's one month, two months, you know,

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Speaker 7: sixty days is the number that seems to be the

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Speaker 7: most solid. At this point, it's unclear if there's any

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Speaker 7: movement whatsoever on any of these key issues we've been

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Speaker 7: talking about. So it doesn't mean that there's a piece deal.

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Speaker 7: It just means that there may be an agreement not

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Speaker 7: to shoot each other for a little while and maybe

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Speaker 7: allow at least some ships to go through the Strait

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Speaker 7: and at least temporarily ease some of the pricing pressure

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Speaker 7: that we've seen in the oil markets. That may be

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Speaker 7: what Trump is trying to do there. Look, there's also

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Speaker 7: an outside there's also an outside case that that, you know,

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Speaker 7: the US is going to put down what it thinks

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Speaker 7: the deal is and lettern reject it, and then the

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Speaker 7: Hawks and the administration will say, well, now it's time

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Speaker 7: to to strike again. But it is very clear that

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Speaker 7: Trump is feeling the pressure, the political pressure, to get

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Speaker 7: out of this conflict, to stop it. He wants to,

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Speaker 7: he wants to be done with it. And so if

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Speaker 7: this arrangement, this MoU the sixty days plan, gives him

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Speaker 7: a way out, he may well try to seize it.

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Speaker 3: Sophia, let's talk more about this kind of popoury of pushback,

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Speaker 3: these posts of pushback from members of the president's own party.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious if you think that those are entirely grounded

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Speaker 3: in principle, if that's how you read those, or incumbent

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Speaker 3: in them. Is this awareness that the midterms are right

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Speaker 3: around the corner. We've got to get through these these

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Speaker 3: runoff in Texas this week, But there's increasing odjta among

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Speaker 3: Republicans about what this will mean going into those midterm elections.

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Speaker 3: And I'm curious when you see that level of pushback again,

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Speaker 3: does it have to do with long standing principle or

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Speaker 3: does it have to do with the fact that the

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Speaker 3: political realities are becoming so difficult for Republicans in particular.

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Speaker 5: Well, I think the president is the person who's really

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Speaker 5: feeling the political realities. I think the people that you're

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Speaker 5: hearing from are people who have principles when it comes

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Speaker 5: to Iran, and I think what they're reacting to is

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Speaker 5: this elephant in the room of are we in a

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Speaker 5: better spot now than we were before the US struck Iran?

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Speaker 5: And I think most of them are still inclined to

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Speaker 5: support the president's decision to strike Iran in the first place.

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Speaker 5: But I think as they've seen the events unfold, they're seeing, Okay,

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Speaker 5: they've still got their nuclear stockpilot, they've still got the

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Speaker 5: uranium we still and then they've in Iran has realized

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Speaker 5: that they've got this new leverage point of the Strait

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Speaker 5: of Hormuz. And I think the energy prices, somebody like

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Speaker 5: Susie Wilds in the White House has been concerned about

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Speaker 5: energy prices even before the Iran war. That is exacerbated

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Speaker 5: Susie's concerns. It's exacerbated the concerns of everybody in the

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Speaker 5: administration who cares about whether Republicans will hold the House.

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Speaker 5: And so that's kind of where we are. And Trump

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Speaker 5: in particular, he said when he came back from his

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Speaker 5: visit to China, he said, look, Americans don't want another

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Speaker 5: war of five thousand miles away. So he's very cognizant

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Speaker 5: that he kind of needs to come out of this

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Speaker 5: and show the American people that it was worth it.

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Speaker 5: And that second part of was this worth it is

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Speaker 5: something that his own allies are questioning right now.

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Speaker 2: Jamana, I'm wondering how golf allies feel about that same question,

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Speaker 2: because you brought up the other big outling thing that

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Speaker 2: I've seen in none of the reporting from either side

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Speaker 2: about what's in this deal, and that's the ballistic missile program,

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Speaker 2: which obviously is degraded but not put out, and defensive

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Speaker 2: stockpiles are degraded around the golf from trying to counter

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Speaker 2: those incoming munitions, especially at the start of the war.

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Speaker 2: The other things our colleagues have put together on Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: dot com and if you have a terminal, a very

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Speaker 2: interesting graph on what the state of play was before

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Speaker 2: the war and after the war. And one of the

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Speaker 2: ones that goes from green to red is the Strait

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Speaker 2: of Hormuz. Right before it was open, it wasn't an issue.

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Speaker 2: Now it's under Iran control or US blockade. And then

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Speaker 2: there are also talks and rumors of Oman and Iran

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Speaker 2: possibly collaborating on a toll system. Is there any guarantee

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Speaker 2: that if Iran doesn't like this deal in six months

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Speaker 2: to a year, it has this tool it didn't really

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Speaker 2: know what had before, and that it can close the

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Speaker 2: strait again? Doesn't it seem like the state of play

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Speaker 2: has fundamentally changed no matter what is in this deal.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I do agree with you and I think this

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Speaker 6: we will look back at this moment, at this war

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Speaker 6: as a game changing war for the region, and namely

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Speaker 6: because Iran had discovered that they have number one, this

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Speaker 6: huge point of leverage around the Strait of Hormos, and

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Speaker 6: already on the back of that, you're seeing Gulf countries

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Speaker 6: look to diversify away and avoid passing through the Strait

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Speaker 6: of Hormos. UAE just announce that they're building another land

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Speaker 6: pipeline that should be completed by twenty twenty seven to

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Speaker 6: help transit more of the oil. And so the countries

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Speaker 6: that will stand to recover more quickly are the ones

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Speaker 6: that exactly have the ability to bypass the streets in

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Speaker 6: coming years, not the case for the likes of Iraq

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Speaker 6: and Kuwait, for example. But the other thing that you

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Speaker 6: mentioned is often overlooked. It's not just about the Strait

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Speaker 6: of Hormers. Iran has also demonstrated. It's demonstrated that they

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Speaker 6: can cause a significant amount of both psychological damage and

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Speaker 6: infrastructure damage just by sending over these low cost drones.

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Speaker 6: And while yes, most of them have been intercepted, the

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Speaker 6: UE interception rate very very high. That's not to say

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Speaker 6: that some of them didn't penetrate through the air defense

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Speaker 6: system and cause a significant amount of damage, which we're

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Speaker 6: still going to be processing and dealing with in the

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Speaker 6: coming months. So I think there is most definitely a

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Speaker 6: concern in the region that having a hostile and angry

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Speaker 6: neighbor on your doorstep is not an outcome that anybody

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Speaker 6: would have wished for, especially because some of these economies

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Speaker 6: are building up these visions that are underpinned by them

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Speaker 6: being an oasis of stability and a region that tends

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Speaker 6: to be quite unstable. And I think what's happened over

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Speaker 6: the past couple of months is that assumption has been challenged,

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Speaker 6: and that is why, to come back to what you

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Speaker 6: were saying, you have seen this shift in sentiment in

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Speaker 6: the last couple of weeks or so, and that all

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Speaker 6: of these Gulf states, including the UAE, who have been

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Speaker 6: the most hawkish, have actually been pushing for a diplomatic

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Speaker 6: solution because the risk of another escalation is so high

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Speaker 6: and it challenges that economic stability that they've been working

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Speaker 6: so hard to build. Does it solve all the problems,

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Speaker 6: absolutely not, but it is the more palatable option out

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Speaker 6: of the two options right now.

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Speaker 3: Jamoni Ricci, thank you very much. Appreciate you joining us

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Speaker 3: this morning. Kevin White, Los Sophia Kai, thanks for your

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Speaker 3: attendance on Bloomberg this weekend on this Sunday morning midst

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Speaker 3: so much breaking news. Hope to have you back soon.

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Speaker 3: And Christina again, we were in this waiting posture, waiting

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Speaker 3: to hear more. You know, I think the way that

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Speaker 3: we responded that post yesterday was this seems imminent, but

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Speaker 3: we have been here before. We've talked about that over

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Speaker 3: the course of.

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Speaker 2: The one hundred percent and talking to Jeff this morning.

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Speaker 2: Jeff Mason earlier in the hours, he was saying that

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Speaker 2: they had thought something similar was happening even earlier this week.

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Speaker 2: They had a call set up. They were told to

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Speaker 2: come to a press conference. Usually you get a briefing

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Speaker 2: before this, and that got pulled.

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Speaker 3: Down as well.

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Speaker 2: So again a lot of moving parts. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: a plomacy. Nothing's agreed to until everything's greed.

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Speaker 3: Toru, stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend

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Speaker 3: right after this. Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Glenn

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Speaker 3: Ivy from the fourth District in Maryland. Great to have

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Speaker 3: you with us once again, and I'm going to rip

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Speaker 3: up the script here. We're going to get to Iran

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Speaker 3: in just a moment. But I know that you served

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Speaker 3: on the task force on the attempted assassination of Donald J. Trump,

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Speaker 3: and with that experience, I wanted to ask you to

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Speaker 3: comment on what we saw outside the White House yesterday.

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Speaker 3: Somebody who tried to get in, fired a weapon, was

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Speaker 3: shot dead by Secret Service as a result of that.

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Speaker 3: What do you make of that occurrence in conflidence what

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Speaker 3: we saw less than a month ago at the White House?

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Speaker 3: Correspondence associate the fact that the president is a target

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Speaker 3: here reporters or a target as well. How is your

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Speaker 3: focus shaped by the work that you did on that

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Speaker 3: test for us?

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Speaker 8: You know, there was a scenario yesterday where really the

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Speaker 8: guy wasn't any place near the president or any intended

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Speaker 8: target apparently, and I think he'd had two prior incidents

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Speaker 8: like that. He seemed to be someone trying to make

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Speaker 8: a statement more so than actually, you know, try and

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Speaker 8: get to the president.

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Speaker 9: Butler was a whole different scenario.

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Speaker 8: So that was one where, you know, another inch slightly

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Speaker 8: to the right, you know, he would have been killed.

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Speaker 8: And so you know, I think the Secret Service has

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Speaker 8: learned a lot from the mistakes that were made at

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Speaker 8: Butler and made improvements and adjustments. But you know, when

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Speaker 8: the president's out, especially at campaign events or open events

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Speaker 8: like that, those are going to be a bunch different

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Speaker 8: scenarios than when he's in the White House or safely

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Speaker 8: in sconsin side of a building with a you know,

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Speaker 8: extended perimeter around it.

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Speaker 2: After that incident, the president did, I would say, tweet,

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Speaker 2: but it's not. It's a truth social saying that you know,

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Speaker 2: presidents need a safe and secure place inferring. I think

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Speaker 2: that this his justification again for the ballroom yere on appropriations.

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Speaker 2: Do you think the president is going to get that

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Speaker 2: funding and do you think that's something that's needed.

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Speaker 8: Well, no, I don't think that it's needed. I mean, let's,

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Speaker 8: for example, if you built the ballroom, I guess the

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Speaker 8: suggestion he's making is that every event he would do

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Speaker 8: publicly would be in the ballroom, which of course is preposterous.

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Speaker 8: The president has to go around and you know, do

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Speaker 8: events out or out about the country and overseas, So

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Speaker 8: building the ballroom doesn't fix the issues that we saw

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Speaker 8: at Butler unless he wants to cloister himself in the

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Speaker 8: White House for the rest.

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Speaker 9: Of his term, and I know that he doesn't.

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Speaker 8: The other part of that, too is when people are

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Speaker 8: running for president, they haven't been elected yet, we're still

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Speaker 8: going to have the same issues about them campaigning outside

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Speaker 8: of the White House because they can't do it in

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Speaker 8: the White House. To start with, that's government property, and

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Speaker 8: you can't do a campaign on government property. So it's

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Speaker 8: a total red heiring from that perspective, whether it gets

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Speaker 8: the funding or not. I think even the Senate Republicans

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Speaker 8: were balking at the amount and the change in the ask.

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Speaker 8: I think initially when he floated this, all the money

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Speaker 8: was going to come from the private sector, which I

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Speaker 8: think is still inappropriate because of the potential influence. But

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Speaker 8: you know now it's a billion dollars from taxpayer money.

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Speaker 8: I just I don't see why we would want to

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Speaker 8: do that.

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Speaker 3: I love that shade from the House Appropriations. Even the

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Speaker 3: Senate appropriators were bulking at that at that amount. Let

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Speaker 3: me ask you to respond to what we heard from

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Speaker 3: the President yesterday, So how you're thinking about the prospects

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Speaker 3: of a deal here. Yes, you said on appropriations, your

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Speaker 3: remitn't strictly in foreign affairs, but you're thinking, I'm sure

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Speaker 3: about the cost of this war, the widening cost and

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Speaker 3: remit of this war. Where do you think we are

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Speaker 3: in these negotiations? Are you satisfied the Congress at least

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Speaker 3: has enough blanket awareness of what's going on on these negotiations.

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Speaker 9: No, I think we've been totally marginalized.

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Speaker 8: I know there's you know, the their lead House members

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Speaker 8: and Senate members on foreign affairs and intelligence and the like,

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Speaker 8: and the leaders are supposed to get additional information, and

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Speaker 8: maybe they are, but don't.

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Speaker 9: I haven't been.

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Speaker 8: Hearing exactly what that is, and I think they've been

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Speaker 8: frustrated as well. So the other problem too is, you know,

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Speaker 8: there's no other way to say it, but you know,

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Speaker 8: the administration lies all the time about the status of

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Speaker 8: these negotiations. He's been saying they're close to a deal

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Speaker 8: now for week after week and nothing seems to happen.

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Speaker 8: And the one time where they did actually float specifics,

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Speaker 8: you know, I think the things that I are on

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Speaker 8: had proposed were totally unaccepted. I'm hoping we can at

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Speaker 8: least get back to a place where we were as

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Speaker 8: well off as we were under the Obama treaty at

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Speaker 8: this point, please just reopen the straight of hor moves first, first,

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Speaker 8: and foremost to talk about doing something with respect to

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Speaker 8: the nuclear piece. I don't know that he can get

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Speaker 8: there from where he is. And even then, you know

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Speaker 8: he lied about I guess he said in June. I

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Speaker 8: thought he'd obliterated all of their nuclear capability, and here

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Speaker 8: we are again. So it's really hard to know what

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Speaker 8: you can believe from the administration or not. But at

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Speaker 8: a minimum, he needs to include Congress, you know, the

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Speaker 8: leadership from this House and the Senate, from both parties.

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Speaker 8: Let's work together and see if we can get out

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Speaker 8: of the mess that he's created.

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Speaker 2: Well, speaking of working together, there was a surprising about

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Speaker 2: amount of backlash from your Republican colleagues in both chambers

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Speaker 2: last night, responding to even the outlines of this potential deal,

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Speaker 2: saying it didn't go far enough. It left us in

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Speaker 2: a worse place than the US and the region were

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Speaker 2: before this conflict started. Watching people like Lindsay Graham, Ted Cruz,

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Speaker 2: stalwart allies of the president, come out openly on Twitter,

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Speaker 2: on x and Post that this is a bad idea.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that helps any kind of coalescence for

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Speaker 2: some of the things that Democrats I have been trying

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Speaker 2: to get done, and that is to curtail some of

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Speaker 2: this Pentagon funding or to actually pass a war Powers resolution.

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Speaker 8: I think we're going to get the War Powers resolution eventually,

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Speaker 8: and you know, I think it's going to be hard

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Speaker 8: for the Republicans to sustain the position that the war

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Speaker 8: should keep going when it's putting so much pain and

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Speaker 8: financial pain on the American people. You know, I just

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Speaker 8: filled up my gas tank yesterday in the car and

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Speaker 8: it was like over eighty dollars and I'm not driving

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Speaker 8: a big SUV. You know, gas costs a buck fifty

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Speaker 8: more than it did just a few months ago. Every

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Speaker 8: American's feeling that, and they're written their teeth at the

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Speaker 8: Trump administration every time they have to pay for that

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Speaker 8: for that tank of gas. So I think that's unsustainable.

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Speaker 8: The problem is he's paid himself into a corner though.

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Speaker 8: You know, he's he made big, you know, statements about

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Speaker 8: what he was going to get out of this, and

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Speaker 8: it's not clear that he can get there, and he's

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Speaker 8: put especially Senate Republicans, but many of my House Republican

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Speaker 8: colleagues as well, in a really tough situation. On the

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Speaker 8: one hand, they want to get out of this war

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Speaker 8: because of the gas prices and the impact and the

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Speaker 8: total unpopularity of it. On the other hand, you know,

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Speaker 8: if he gets out but doesn't you know, achieve any

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Speaker 8: of the goals that he put out there at the

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Speaker 8: front end, he can't say face he looks like he failed.

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Speaker 8: I think he's going to have to swallow this hard

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Speaker 8: and try and move forward from there, because I'm not

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Speaker 8: seeing an easy path forward and Iron has successfully stalemated us,

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Speaker 8: you know, on the ground on this, So I don't

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Speaker 8: know how he's going to get out of the situation.

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Speaker 8: I don't see an exit ramp that's easy for him.

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Speaker 8: But he's going to have to do something he's going

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Speaker 8: to have to do with fast.

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Speaker 3: I want to get the perspective of Glen Ivy, former

436
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 3: Assistant US Attorney for the District of Columbia, on this

437
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 3: anti weaponization fund that was announced this week one point

438
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 3: eight billion dollars here for those who have grievances against

439
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 3: the Justice Department, against the federal government. What do you

440
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 3: make of that as a as a former federal prosecutor,

441
00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 3: and what power does Congress have to train this or

442
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 3: precluded from happening. Christina mentioned just a moment ago that

443
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 3: the blowback the president has gone from his party on

444
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 3: the prospects of this Iran deal. I should say there

445
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 3: was a lot of blowback form members of his own

446
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 3: party about the creation of this fund as well.

447
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 8: Absolutely. I mean, I you know, frankly, I was shocked.

448
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 8: I didn't really believe it at first, but you know,

449
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,880
Speaker 8: once it was confirmed, I mean I was disgusted. And

450
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,360
Speaker 8: you know, former DOJ prosecutors people were still there are shocked.

451
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 8: And I think you're seeing that across the board, even

452
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 8: with Senate and the House Republicans, they just, you know,

453
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 8: it's it's just a shocking thing to do. And it

454
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 8: looks like he was targeting the J six defendants that

455
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 8: will insurrectionists actually, who had been convicted I think over

456
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 8: fifteen hundred of them. He pardoned all of them, that

457
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 8: eliminated their requirement to pay restitution to the people that

458
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 8: they hurt. And now he's going to say, Okay, we're

459
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 8: going to use one point eight billion dollars in American

460
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 8: taxpayers money to pay these guys and other you know,

461
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 8: former con to felons. At the same time, I mean,

462
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 8: it's it's disgusting and and the structure of the deal,

463
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 8: you know, with the I R. S and the Department

464
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 8: of Justice, both of who've serve serve it his pleasure.

465
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 8: You know, you didn't actually have any kind of objectivity

466
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 8: in there, and the only the only uh to the

467
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 8: extent you did it was the judge, and she expressed

468
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 8: real concern about the lack of objectivity and neutrality uh

469
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 8: and adverse. You know, parties in the scenario. But I

470
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 8: think the politics or this are going to demand some

471
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 8: kind of fix. I know there's a real effort to

472
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 8: do something legislative. There's a couple options on the table.

473
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 8: I'm not sure which one will play out, but I

474
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 8: think at the end of the day, none of this

475
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 8: money's going to be used to pay off people like that.

476
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 8: You're sure that fund should be liquidated entirely.

477
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: That's because Acting ag Todd Lanche did an interview with

478
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 2: our college over at CNN and was asked in the

479
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 2: smaller well, you know, the viability and legality and ethics

480
00:23:58,520 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 2: of this fund aside.

481
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 3: Other than missus Lincoln, Thanks David.

482
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: If it does go forward, is there a preclusion for

483
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 2: giving money to people who assaulted police officers, and Blanche's

484
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 2: response was, well, that'll have to be litigated or decided

485
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 2: by this amorphous and defined committee members who are distributing

486
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: this money. If you can't stop it, would you at

487
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 2: least want to see something that precludes people who have

488
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: been vixed of felonies or violent acts during January sixth

489
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 2: or other incidents being disqualified.

490
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 8: Well, you know, certainly, but depending on who else they

491
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 8: line up in the names I've heard, it just been

492
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 8: a real roads gallery Michael Flynn for example. You know,

493
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 8: just names that have faded from public view thankfully, and

494
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 8: here they are again. Rudi Juiyani. Folks like that. It's like,

495
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 8: you know, please give me a break. But you know,

496
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 8: I think it's tax dollars that you know they keep saying.

497
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 8: For example, he just said a little while ago he

498
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 8: didn't care about what's going on with the American public

499
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 8: as far as you know, the impact and their financial difficulties.

500
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 8: We could use that one point eight billion dollars to

501
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 8: do other things like extend the healthcare tax credits for example,

502
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 8: extend Snap benefits for example. But you know, he's focused

503
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 8: on paying off people who you know, I have really

504
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 8: false claims against the United States and shouldn't be getting

505
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 8: a dime. In fact, they should be paying the United

506
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 8: States the restitution that they owe. So I think this

507
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 8: is going to be defeated one way or the other.

508
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 8: Might be a clawback, it might be a challenge to

509
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 8: the structure of the UH this board or whatever, because

510
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 8: it certainly wasn't established by Congress.

511
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 9: I mean, what exactly is it?

512
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 8: And you know the organization for the for the for

513
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 8: the use of the funds from the appropriations committees either.

514
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 2: So right, Congressman, thank you so much. I'm afraid we're

515
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 2: running out of time. Thank you for joining us. We

516
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 2: really appreciate your perspective on a broad range of issues

517
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 2: this morning. Stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend.

518
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 2: Right after this, Welcome back to Bloomberg this weekend. I'm

519
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 2: Christina Raffini here with David Gerra. Medical facilities in the

520
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: Democratic Republic of Congo are feeling the strain as Ebola

521
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: makes its way through parts of the country. At a

522
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 2: hospital in the northeastern part there, doctors describe a sense

523
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 2: of dread spreading almost as quickly as ebola itself.

524
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 3: In the mining town at the center of this epidemic.

525
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 3: Bloomberg reports bats the size of chickens swarm abandoned tunnels

526
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 3: and may be spreading the virus. Janis q is one

527
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 3: of our colleagues covering the outbreak and she joins us

528
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 3: now from Johannesburg. Jane's great to have you with us,

529
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 3: and I wonder if you could just get us up

530
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 3: to speed. First. We had a couple of conversations yesterday

531
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 3: with Jason Gale and Jeremy Conandike, former US official who

532
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 3: handled Thebola outbreak in twenty fourteen for the US, just

533
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 3: about the prospects there being a massive undercount here and

534
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 3: the difficulty of piecing together sort of how wide spread

535
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,719
Speaker 3: this outbreak is thus far. What does your latest reporting

536
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 3: tell you just about how widely this has spread through

537
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 3: the DRC and neighboring countries.

538
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 10: We've certainly seen quite a lot of spread within the

539
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 10: Congo itself. The probable cases at the stage are sitting

540
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 10: at about eight hundred and sixty seven worth just over

541
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 10: two hundred deaths, but that is undoubtedly an undercount. It

542
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 10: is very difficult for health workers on the ground to

543
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 10: really do contact tracing. The estimate at this stage is

544
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 10: that it's about a fifth of contacts that are being

545
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 10: traced and already Africa CDC's Director General Cassia yesterday was

546
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 10: saying that on a like for life basis or this

547
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 10: particular outbreak is already the second largest after the twenty

548
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 10: fourteen to twenty sixteen epidemic in West Africa. And that

549
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 10: epidemic was it was large, it was a lot of people.

550
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 10: There were more than twenty eight thousand people infected in

551
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 10: that epidemic.

552
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: You ask in your piece, you say you've p the

553
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 2: who believes this outbreak likely started months ago. Why didn't

554
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: they catch it sooner? And are they trying to recover

555
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 2: from that effort? Is there anything that health officials can

556
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: do to try to catch these things earlier.

557
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 10: There are a lot of factors in a region like this.

558
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 10: The Congo is a really large country in the middle

559
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 10: of Africa, the geography's difficult, and then there are also

560
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 10: armed forces, specifically in the east where the epicenter of

561
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 10: this has been. There's also been all the funding cuts

562
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 10: that we've spoken about before and we know well of

563
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 10: particularly USID, which has weakened surveillance in that area. And

564
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 10: then there's also the fact that this is a very

565
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 10: rare strain. The Bundibugyo strain is not the strain that

566
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 10: was in that West Africa epidemic. It's not the one

567
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 10: that's been studied, and it's also not the one that

568
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 10: has any vaccines or therapeutics approved. And so even on

569
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 10: the diagnostics on the testing, the original tests were rarely

570
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 10: showing negative because it was testing for the Zayare strain

571
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 10: instead of this Bondi Boogyo strain.

572
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: Let's talk a bit about funding and the funding needs

573
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: as this outbreak widens. You and Jason Gale, with whom

574
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 3: we spoke yesterday right about a request for three hundred

575
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: and nineteen million dollars, and I wonder if you could

576
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 3: put that in a wider context. Bloomberg hab reporting earlier

577
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 3: last week just about how small the US investment is

578
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 3: in a bowl of surveillance and mitigation since the cuts

579
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 3: that we've seen to usaid here. So put that three

580
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 3: hundred nineteen million dollar figure in context, if you would.

581
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 3: Is it likely to be sufficient? Is it likely to

582
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 3: come through?

583
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 10: There is quite a lot being promised, but whether it

584
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 10: really comes through is yet to be seen. The Africa

585
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 10: CDC had a briefing yesterday evening and they were saying

586
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 10: that they really are trying to work as one voice.

587
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 10: They had the health ministers from three different countries there,

588
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 10: so it was Congo, let me just check the South

589
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 10: Sudan and Uganda. Those health ministers were all there and

590
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 10: they also had the WHO and Africa CDC and they

591
00:29:54,560 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 10: are definitely focusing on coordinating across border response. Of that

592
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 10: amount that you mentioned, the three nineteen million dollars, about

593
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 10: eighty four percent is says assigned for Congo and Uganda

594
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 10: and then the rest for high risk neighboring countries. It

595
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 10: is to deal with some of the immediate needs, which

596
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 10: range to things as basic as personal protective equipment for

597
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 10: health workers, etcetera on the ground, but also for building

598
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 10: longer term facilities that can be used during outbreaks like this.

599
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: I also want to ask what mitigation matters are being done.

600
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 2: I was reading this morning that for the first time

601
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: DRC itself has suspended flights from the eastern part of

602
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: the country. Usually that's something airlines do on their own

603
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 2: or other governments. They're taking that precautionary step. What are

604
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: they trying to do to stop this outbreak? Because I

605
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 2: know resources are tight in your piece, you say hospitals

606
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 2: in northeast Congo don't have proper isolation rooms. One is

607
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: running low on supplies and staff as the staff members

608
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: are now falling in. Well, this isn't the first time

609
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: this country has dealt with anabola outbreak, so why are

610
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 2: they struggling to keep up with this one.

611
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 10: I think the funding cuts again have definitely paid a part.

612
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 10: And then, as I said, they didn't detect which strain,

613
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 10: it was very early and so it probably was going

614
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 10: undetected for a long period of time. Then on top

615
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 10: of that, we've got the facts that they're really having

616
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 10: to lean now because they don't have the tools. They

617
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 10: don't have the vaccines or therapeutics for this particular strain.

618
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 10: They're having to lean a lot on community messaging and

619
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 10: that is quite a tough cell. You often need people

620
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 10: on the ground that are trusted to really convey that message,

621
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 10: and habits can take quite a while to change. The

622
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 10: DG of Africa CDC was speaking about dignified burials and

623
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 10: so one of the things with ebola is that the

624
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 10: mortal remains really can't be to The virus can continue

625
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 10: to spread if you handle a body and so trying

626
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 10: to be sensitive to customs of the region, but still

627
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 10: make sure that there is a safe burial, so dignified

628
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 10: but safe burial. That is one of the messages that

629
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 10: they are trying to get across.

630
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 9: Jess.

631
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 3: Let me just ask you lastly about the parallel that

632
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 3: we've been drawing to twenty fourteen in twenty sixteen. Bearing

633
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 3: in mind, as you've pointed out, this is a different

634
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 3: strain than we were seeing back then, What can that

635
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 3: outbreak tell us or how does that inform the response

636
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 3: that we should see or that we are seeing in

637
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 3: DRC Now? Does it provide any kind of playbook?

638
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 8: Here?

639
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 3: Are we really dealing with a circumstance that's not, if

640
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 3: entirely different, a different circumstance.

641
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 10: In theory, we should be dealing with a much better

642
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 10: circumstance because we do have vaccines and therapeutics. Unfortunately, they're

643
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 10: not specific to the strain, and so in some ways

644
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 10: they will have There are lessons that have been learned

645
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 10: from the twenty fourteen to twenty sixteen epidemic in terms

646
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 10: of how secure the facilities need to be, you know,

647
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 10: how contained they need to be, whether they can actually

648
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 10: get those facilities up and running quickly is another story.

649
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 10: I do think though, that we are seeing a sense

650
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 10: of urgency across various agencies, various countries, and so support

651
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 10: is being flown in. We heard yesterday that during the

652
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 10: course of the day, India had promised to send several

653
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 10: tons of equipment in, and so I do think that

654
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 10: sense of urgency and speed is definitely different this time around.

655
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 2: All right, JENISQ. You're joining us from our bureau in Johannesburg.

656
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 2: She is Bloomberg News Health and Consumer reporter. Thank you

657
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: so much.

658
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 4: Stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend. Right

659
00:33:48,360 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 4: after this, Dave.

660
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 3: Garra, Yes, what do you google? That's a great question.

661
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 3: We just did sports. I google sports scores, if I

662
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 3: don't watch the end of a game, recipes, if I'm traveling,

663
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 3: all google best hotel or restaurant in a given city.

664
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 3: Very practical.

665
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 10: I feel like.

666
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: Google is very, very very practical. Mind us a little chaotic,

667
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 2: but yes, all right, Well, Simon Rodgers written a book.

668
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 3: I have to beg I have to ask you a

669
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 3: follow up on that chaotic Now, you know me.

670
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 2: My brain is just as chaotic. It's it's things that

671
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 2: I should know, but I'm not sure about I check

672
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: on I check with a life guide for you. There's

673
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 2: a lot of where am I in New York's happening

674
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 2: right now, but we'll move on for sorry interrupting, all right, So,

675
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: my friend Simon Rodgers has written a book on exactly that.

676
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: He's Google's data editor, and before that he was the

677
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: data guy at Twitter. He's also the winner of one

678
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: of the most amazingly hyperniche awards I've ever heard of,

679
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: which is the Royal Statistical Society's Award for Statistical Excellence

680
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: in Journalism. Simon, you giant nerd.

681
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 3: It's so nice to see you feel such a time.

682
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 11: Thank you for having with me.

683
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 3: The book is what we ask Google. Let's start with

684
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 3: the question that Christina posed to me as you hoisted

685
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 3: up here, probably speaking, what are the bulk of queries

686
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 3: about on the search engine?

687
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 11: So the bulk of query is a really about the

688
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 11: everyday stuff. I mean, I think we tend to focus

689
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 11: on the you know, the big news events, which makes sense.

690
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 11: When something happens, we want to understand it, but really

691
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,399
Speaker 11: for most of us, it's just going through the day.

692
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 11: Is parenting, It's like pets, food, health, grief. You know,

693
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 11: these kind of big moments, and I'm not seeing a

694
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 11: kind of real exploration of that every day in nature

695
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 11: of search. So that's what I wanted to look at.

696
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 2: It's really fun and you break it down into different

697
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: sections and there is so much data in here. I

698
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 2: understand why you want that award.

699
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 5: Your very first chapter is called why.

700
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 2: Am I So Tired? Which I think is the refrain

701
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: of modern adulthood. But a lot of it surprising is

702
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: about time people search, Like what time is it they search?

703
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: You know, around two am? You say, you see a

704
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 2: spike in parents searching for how to get their kids

705
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,399
Speaker 2: to sleep? Why do we have daylight savings time? Why

706
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: do we have leapier? And then what time is it

707
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: in Ukraine? Spiked around the invasion?

708
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 11: Yeah, exactly. It's like it's a real mix of the everyday. So, yeah,

709
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 11: you can't get your baby sleep at around two am, You're

710
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 11: not alone, You're sharing it with millions of people around

711
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 11: the world. And also there is a kind of rhythm

712
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 11: to the way that we search, and it applies during

713
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 11: the year as well. So people search for how to

714
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 11: play piano in December yah, ahead of Christmas? Right and

715
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 11: right now people are searching for graduation. A month ago

716
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 11: it was prom a month before that was proposals, and

717
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,439
Speaker 11: that's a global search. Now that's one of these things

718
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 11: which yeah, I grew up in England, did not grow

719
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 11: up with proms, and now it's a global thing. So

720
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 11: you see these searches kind of spread around the world.

721
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 3: Could you talk a bit about your approach to the job. So, look,

722
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 3: I search on Google. It populates it sometimes, so what

723
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 3: other people are asking questions? But when you're faced with

724
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 3: this gigantic doesn't even do it justice trove of data?

725
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 3: How do you begin to piece through it? What are

726
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 3: you looking for? What are you hoping to glean from

727
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 3: all that you can aggregate? From where you say it.

728
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 11: I mean, for me, I'm really interested in the humanity

729
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 11: behind the searches. So, for instance, whenever there's a hurricane,

730
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 11: you know, you'd expect people to be searching for battling

731
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 11: down hatches and you know, buying emergency supplies, but people

732
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 11: also search for how to calm a dog in a storm,

733
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 11: which I love that search. Yeah, and it's very human, right,

734
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 11: And I think that there is a kind of humanity

735
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 11: which comes across searches, which you know, maybe we're lacking

736
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 11: a little bit in the way we think about each other.

737
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 11: But actually you can really say it come through like

738
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 11: searches for help are higher now than ever before, and

739
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 11: they're often about helping other people.

740
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: I thought that was interesting because the premise of this

741
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: seems like nightmare fuel. There's a UK game show called

742
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: task Master and they recently had a challenge where contestants

743
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: had to do a really scary thing and the guy

744
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 2: who one let them read his search history live on

745
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: the show because it seems like it could bring out

746
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: the worse on us. But to your point, there's some

747
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: really cute and kind of reaffirming moments. One of them

748
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: is in June, people search like how to save a

749
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: bee because bees are out and they want to rescue them, which.

750
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 5: I thought was really cute.

751
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 2: But talk to us about some of the other things

752
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 2: that as you're looking through this data, made you find commonalities,

753
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: not things that separate us.

754
00:37:58,800 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 7: Yeah.

755
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 11: I mean I wanted to write the book and I

756
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 11: started doing it a couple of months after my muma died.

757
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 11: And you know, anybody who's joined that club, you know,

758
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 11: you feel incredibly alone. You're the only person this has

759
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 11: ever happened to, and when you start looking at the

760
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 11: daity realize that not only are you not the only

761
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 11: person that's ever happened to, there are lots of people

762
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 11: in the same situation, but people are also searching for

763
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 11: how to help others in that situation, like the right

764
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 11: thing to say, or the right bit of poetry to read,

765
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 11: or whatever it is. And that kind of gave me

766
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 11: a couple of themes of the book, really, because this

767
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 11: idea that you're not alone, even if you feel lonely,

768
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 11: you're one of a community of people who are doing

769
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 11: similar things, whether or not you know it. And also

770
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 11: that other people are trying to help you, which is

771
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 11: kind of resure, reassuring and reaffirming. And also really that

772
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 11: we know nothing. You know that everyday life, whether it's

773
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 11: how to boil an egg or how to tie tie,

774
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 11: you know these things and we're not ashamed to ask

775
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 11: for it.

776
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 3: How is your life being transformed by AI in the

777
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 3: way that people are using it to ask some of

778
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 3: these questions? And I think about the rigor of thinking.

779
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 3: I think a criticism of a I is somebody might

780
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 3: search query like you just asked what time is in

781
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 3: some place? And this is something that we could answer

782
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: very basically if we obtained a wristwatch or looked at

783
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 3: the class across the room. And it's using all of

784
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 3: this computing power to find this very basic question. I'm

785
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 3: curious how you think about that, Just that the way

786
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 3: in which we're using search and how it's been transforming

787
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 3: our approach to finding out in some cases is very

788
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 3: basic information.

789
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 11: Yeah, my favorite is how to tell the time drying,

790
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 11: which is which is is most searched in London, which

791
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 11: is no surprise. Sure there is a change and revolution

792
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 11: happening in the way people search, and we have some

793
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 11: data out this week around the way that people search

794
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 11: with AI mode in Google, which is you know, we've

795
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 11: had for a year now, so obviously we've got over

796
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 11: twenty years of regular search history and now we've got

797
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 11: a year of AI search history. So it's really early days.

798
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 11: But what you're seeing is that queries are getting longer

799
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 11: and then much more specific now and they used to be.

800
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 11: So you're like you'll see a car in a in

801
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 11: a movie, you want to know what brand it is,

802
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 11: Or you'll see you'll hear a song, you want to

803
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 11: know what instrument they've played on it. And they're much

804
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 11: more conversational, so people will go back and forth and

805
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 11: kind of return to it.

806
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 2: Because that's not interesting to me because as a kid

807
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 2: who grew up in the two thousands, there was this

808
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 2: thing called ass jeeves four people, but what is you know?

809
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 3: Blank?

810
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 2: And it would find it to you. In Google search terms,

811
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: we're so prime, we're so prime to just enter keywords.

812
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: It's interesting to me now that we're going back to

813
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 2: searching in natural language.

814
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 11: It's a whole new set of skills, doesn't it. And

815
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 11: I think it's basically people are just asking how they

816
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 11: want to ask. So me and my son we're doing

817
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 11: up an old BMW at the moment, stupidly complicated, and

818
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 11: so we're doing a lot of these very kind of

819
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 11: weird diagnostic things where we'll come back and we'll go

820
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 11: back to it. So you're really seeing it that way.

821
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 11: And also, searches are becoming much more kind of multimodal,

822
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 11: and by that you mean that people are searching not

823
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 11: just on the phone or on a laptop, why they're

824
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 11: searching with a voice or a home device. But my senses,

825
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 11: and it's early, is that the things we're searching for

826
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 11: are staying the same. We're still searching for love and

827
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 11: relationships and health and hope and that sort of thing.

828
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 7: It done.

829
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 2: I like the towards the end. Had you end on

830
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: a nice note. And you have a graph that shows

831
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: the number of people searching for a job that makes

832
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 2: money and the number of people searching for a job

833
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 2: that helps people. And over time the line for helping

834
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: people far surpasses the one for people wanting to make money.

835
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 2: How do you think that is? And what's your biggest takeaway?

836
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 11: I mean, I think you're seeing these social changes happening,

837
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 11: and you can see the data through search. So for instance,

838
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 11: searches for take care of parents have overtaken searches for

839
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 11: take care of kids, you know, with the Sandwich generation

840
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 11: maybe looking off to parents and looking after children, and

841
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 11: a lot of these kind of big social trends you

842
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 11: can see showing up in search.

843
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: Simon, thank you so much. The book is what we google.

844
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 2: Thank you for coming in and if you need to

845
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 2: feel better about humanity, I highly endorse it all right

846
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 2: From more reviews and recommended books, Please sure to subscribe

847
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 2: to the new Bloomberg Weekend newsletter on books. You can

848
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 2: sign up at Bloomberg dot com Slash newsletters. Thanks for

849
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: joining us on today's Bloomberg This Weekend podcast. Don't forget

850
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 2: to tune in live for the show every Saturday and

851
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: Sunday morning, starting at seven am Eastern.

852
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,000
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