1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 2: On January tewod, Nicolas Maduro met with Chinese officials in Caracas. 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: Sibil Mbiado President in pin Paramerica latinbe. 4 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 2: There's video of that meeting on Maduro's Instagram account. The 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 2: narrator touts Chinese investment in Venezuela in energy and technology 6 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: and infrastructure, and praises the relationship between the two nations. 7 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: Yeahiva Venezuela, you know Nidas. 8 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 2: Hours later, Maduro was captured by US special forces. 9 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: Well, that was very unfortunate, tell me for the Chinese government. 10 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: There's no question in my mind that the Chinese, in 11 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: a way where humiliated. 12 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 2: Nicholas Burns was a US diplomat for decades under Republican 13 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: and Democratic presidents, including Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and 14 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 2: Barack Obama. Most recently, he was the US Ambassador to 15 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 2: China under President Biden. China and Venezuela have had what 16 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 2: the Chinese call an all weather strategic partnership, a very 17 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: close relationship. China promised to stand by Venezuela through thick 18 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 2: and thin, Burns explains, through any crisis. 19 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: But when that crisis came, Chinese could have just send 20 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: Nicholas Maduro. So I think, frankly, this has been a 21 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: loss of face since, been a loss of influence for China, 22 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: certainly in Venezuela. And I have to imagine that some 23 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: countries in Latin America will begin to question whether an 24 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: all encompassing embrace of China, and some of them have 25 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: made that is really in their long term interest. 26 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: I'm David Gera, and this is the big take from 27 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: Bloomberg News today, A conversation with Ambassador Nicholas Burns, now 28 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: a professor at the Harvard Kennedy School, about how Beijing 29 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: will respond to the US incursion into Venezuela, how it 30 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: could change China's approach to Taiwan, and how the so 31 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 2: called don Roe doctrine, President Trump's focus on the Western 32 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: Hemisphere could hand China an edge on the world stage. 33 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: When I sat down with Ambassador Nicholas Burns this week, 34 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: he brought up an article he read in twenty twenty 35 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 2: four as he made his way to what ended up 36 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 2: being the last summit meeting between President Biden and President. 37 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: She an extraordinary front page story which essentially said that 38 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, the United States was a 39 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: leading trade partner of every country in South America, but 40 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: by twenty twenty four, the People's Repubma fifth China was 41 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: the leading trade partner of every country in South America, 42 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: with the exception at that time of Columbia. 43 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: It illustrated vividly, Burns says, the extraordinary commitment China has 44 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: made to compete for influence in Latin America, and Venezuela 45 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: has been a key part of that. Over nearly two decades, 46 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 2: China has loaned the country tens of billions of dollars, 47 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: and Venezuela has paid interest on those loans with oil. 48 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 2: I asked Ambassador Burns about how China responded to the 49 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 2: capture of Nicholas Maduro and to the Trump administration's assertion 50 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: it's going to control the flow of oil from Venezuela. 51 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: How do its policy priorities in South America change as 52 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: a result of what happened to Maduro. 53 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: Well, that Chinese are going to compete. They're not going 54 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: to leave the field in a new Monroe doctrine just 55 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: because the United States has said move out of Latin America. 56 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: I actually have a lot of sympathy for the view 57 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: that we should push back against the more competitive Chinese 58 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: actions against the United States, certainly in Latin America for instance. 59 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: The Trump administration has been right to say in the 60 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: Penwa Canal that at Chinese state company shouldn't control the 61 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: infed forts. That just makes sense from an American national 62 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: security standpoint. But they will compete. China is a major 63 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: creditor to Venezuela, and if part of the solution to 64 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: try to stabilize Venezuela in the next six to twelve 65 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: months turns out to be a big debt negotiation, China 66 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: will demand a seat at the table. They'll also look 67 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: for fishers in the US relationship with Venezuela and try 68 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: to exploit them. You know, very cynically. China was a 69 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,559 Speaker 1: major supporter of this brutal regime, the Maduro regime. Many 70 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: of the people who ran that machine are still in place, 71 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: and so I think they'll look to see if they 72 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: can divide the United States from that regime. And so 73 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: I don't think they're going to quit. And this is 74 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: all part of this global competition that's been underway for 75 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: many years now between the US and China. 76 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 2: So much of President Trump's focus has been on and 77 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: continues to be on Venezuela's oil. You were talking about 78 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 2: the debt that Venezuela is into China and there was 79 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: this oil for Day program that was in place. How 80 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 2: critical is that oil to China today. 81 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: I think it's more symbolically important than it is in 82 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: real terms. Chinese imports of Venezuelan oil represent about four 83 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: percent of China's total imports around the world, so it's 84 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: not that strategically important, but I think it's politically important 85 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: for them that they not be shut out of that market, 86 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: which certainly China's very interested in developing the entire South 87 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: American market. If you think of Brazil, for instance, where 88 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: China has made extraordinary inroads with Chinese electric vehicles, with 89 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: Chinese purchases of Brazilian soybeans, and so I think you'll 90 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: see the Chinese ramp up their state enterprise investment in 91 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: many different parts of South America, and it's going to 92 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: be interesting to watch to see if they can be successful. 93 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: As you mentioned, China likely ones has seen at the 94 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: table as all of this unfolds. A spokesperson for the 95 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 2: Chinese Foreign Ministry set at a press conference the Lawful 96 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: Rights and interests of China in Venezuela must be protected. 97 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: How big a concern is that to the Chinese that 98 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 2: they could lose access to what they help build? Where 99 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: does that leave China in trying to plot a path forward? 100 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: Well, I think they're two Chinese concerns here, and I 101 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: don't have sympathy for either of them. Onely is again 102 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: they don't want to see a dramatic decline in their 103 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: trade and investment activities in South America, I was even 104 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: Latin America, because they see it as such a major market, 105 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: both in importing critical food stuff but also in terms 106 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: of making inroads for their most competitive industries. But secondly, 107 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: this may turn out to help the United States and 108 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: help Scott best In, for instance, in his trade, tariff 109 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: and supply chain negotiations with the Chinese. There's the truth, 110 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: as you know, between the United States and China from 111 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: the extraordinary tariff and supply chain the wars of twenty 112 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: twenty five. But it's a very unstable truth. And so 113 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: if the United States suddenly, because of this intervention in Venezuela, 114 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: has a lock on the oil industry, that's going to 115 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: help perhaps the United States, as the Chinese the United 116 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: States try to one up each other, and certainly I 117 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: hope the United States can be successful. I'm not rooting 118 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: for China at all. Having served as ambassador, I've seen 119 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: how quick they are to deploy unfair trade practices against 120 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: our own companies, and I hope the administration can be successful, 121 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: certainly in the supply chain issue as well as on tariff. 122 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: You mentioned the role that China is playing across the continent. 123 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: Can you put into context of Venezuela's role in that, well. 124 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: I think it's it was a function of both Russia, 125 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: China and other authoritarian countries coalescing just support an unlawful 126 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: regime in Caracas. Maduro stole the election of twenty twenty four. 127 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: He wasn't a legitimate leader, and yet he had this support, 128 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: very overt political support from Jijinping and from Vladimir Putin. 129 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: And so I think in this sense it's been a 130 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: loss of influence for all those authoritarians, which is a 131 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: very positive development. And that's what they've lost. There are 132 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: now and some of their other primary supporters, Cuba being 133 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: the most notable. Well, we saw what happened, and the 134 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: US Special forces out maneuvered completely the Cuban Craetorian guard 135 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: around Nicholas Maduro and thus throughout the President Trump has 136 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: made against you. But it has to be concentrating mines 137 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: in Havana. So I think the tables have been turned 138 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: a little bit here in the global competition, these very 139 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: self confident uoritarian powers and China, Russia, North Korea and Iran, 140 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: the tables have been turned against certainly the Iranians, certainly 141 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: the vath Whalens as part of this in the Western hemisphere. 142 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: And so you know, we're not going to know how 143 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: this all plays out until several years of history of past. 144 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: But this has been a dramatic diminution of Chinese influence 145 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: in the Western hemisphere. 146 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: Well, I want to turn to what's being called the 147 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 2: don Roe doctrine. 148 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: They now call it the Dunro document. I don't know, 149 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: it's uh Monroe doctrine. We sort of forgot about it. 150 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: It was very important, but we forgot about it. We 151 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: don't forget about it anymore. 152 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: Under name, President Trump making no bones about the fact 153 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: that he wants to focus on the Western hemisphere. How 154 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: does that change China's approach to foreign policy? 155 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 1: Well, the Chinese now know that the game has been 156 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: changed that the United States under President Trump, it's going 157 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: to be very aggressive and pushing back against aspects of 158 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: Chinese influence. That's what this new Chump corollary to the 159 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: Monroe doctrine that was announced in the National Security Strategy Report, 160 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: That's what that means. But I think that the administration 161 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: would be more effective if they stopped talking just about 162 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: oil and they started talking more about the real strength 163 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: of the United States. The President has talked almost solely 164 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: about the petroleum oil benefits to the United States. I 165 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: think most American presidents, if not all American presidents but 166 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: the last century, would have said, we want the hemisphere 167 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: to be governed by rule of law, societies by governments 168 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: that are elected by the people of the country. We 169 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: want human rights on her That's a glaring omission in 170 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: the policy of the Trump administration, and it's not going 171 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: to be attractive at leads to average people in Venezuela 172 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: or other parts of Central and South America if the 173 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 1: United States is seen to be saying we only care 174 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: about your resources. 175 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 2: Coming up, how President Trump's incursion in Venezuela could influence 176 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 2: Presidents She and Putin and how it's shaping President Trump's 177 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 2: designs on Greenland. The US military blockade of Venezuela and 178 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 2: the apprehension of Nicholas Maduro has put other countries on edge. 179 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 2: President Trump has put Cuba on notice, and he suggested 180 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 2: the US could strike cartels in Mexico. And then there's Greenland. 181 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 2: When President Trump talks about Greenland, he often brings up China. 182 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 2: He's made unsupported claims that there are Chinese destroyers off Greenland. 183 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: And here's what he said when he met with oil 184 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 2: executives last week at the White House. 185 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: I get along very well with President she I'm going 186 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: to go over to China in April, but I don't 187 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: want them as a neighbor in Greenland not going to 188 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: happen anywhere. 189 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,839 Speaker 2: To what degree are President Trump's designs on Greenland do 190 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: you think tied to China. 191 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: Well, it's hard to know because there are so many 192 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: different explanations being offered by the Trump administration about this 193 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: really problematic focus on Greenland. And I just say this, 194 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: there's no question that there is a longer term strategic 195 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: threat given the fact that the passageway between Asia and 196 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: the Atlantic is now navigable in the summer months, there 197 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: is more of a threat which took me from Russia. 198 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: Greenland is very strategic. We have to contain and toture Russia. 199 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: But the way to do that is to work through 200 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: the NATO alliance. There is an Arctic Council of the 201 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: eight Arctic countries. Russia is a member. The other seven 202 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: members are all members of NATO, including Denmark and Greenland 203 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: as part of the Danish Kingdom, and of course the 204 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: United States. So if the concern here is that there 205 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: is a threat from Russia, and if maybe the long 206 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: term strategic partner of China, the way to deal with 207 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: it is to have a united NATO and seven of 208 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: those nations, including the United States, working with Denmark and others, 209 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: and not attempting to buy or acquire by force Greenland 210 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: from a vaunted and very reliable NATO ally Denmark. And 211 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: if you think about this, I was ambassador to NATO 212 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: between two thousand and one and two thousand and five. 213 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: I remember very clearly what happened on nine to eleven 214 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 1: that afternoon in Brussels. As we looked at the Twin 215 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: Towers falling in New York, three thousand people dead. We 216 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: looked at the Anegon being attacked, and the Danish ambassador 217 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: called me and said they were with us, they would 218 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 1: defend us, they would invoke Article five of the NATO 219 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: Treaty an attack on one as an attack on all, 220 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: which we did. The next day. The Danes went into Afghanistan. 221 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: Suffer a higher level of casualties on the per capita basis. 222 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: They suffered the most of any of the troop contributing 223 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: nations in terms of the numbers of people of their 224 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: soldiers who were killed and were wounded. They really stood 225 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: with us, And now suddenly we have a situation and 226 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: it's hard to believe we've come to this point where 227 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: the leading member of NATO is threatening another NATO member 228 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: with military force that will break NATO. If the Trump 229 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: administration tries to use a military force to occupy Freeland, 230 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: that will be the end of NATO. It will cause 231 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: irreparably harm to the United States. It will be a 232 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: shameful episode in our history. And I've got to believe 233 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: that the Trump administration is going to find a way 234 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: to back down from this ludicrous claim that President Trump 235 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: has made to Greenland itself. 236 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 2: The journalist Christopher Being wrote a piece for Bloomberg business 237 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 2: Week recently, and he made what I think is a 238 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 2: really interesting point about how this could backfire on the US. 239 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: He wrote, President Trump's norm busting incursion in Venezuela makes 240 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 2: China look like the adult in the room. This reinforces 241 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 2: the country's reputation in the region as a calm, predictable 242 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: partner with whom one can do business. Do you agree 243 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 2: with that. 244 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: Well, it's what the Chinese are trying to insinuate, not 245 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: just insinuate. China is saying we are the defender of 246 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: the international order that was established after the Second World War. 247 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: We are the cautious and responsible party in the United 248 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: States is an agent of instability. That's a little bit 249 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: of softistry from the Chinese. The Chinese are threatening Taiwan 250 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: with military force as we speak. That Chinese have stolen 251 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: in the Scratlely and Parasol Islands of the South China 252 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: see territory from both Vietnam and the Philippines. That Chinese 253 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: are harassing Japan over Japanese control of the Sinkoku Islands 254 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: in the East Chenesee. The Chinese have been contesting Indian 255 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: sovereignty on their border in the him in Malayas. So 256 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: it's like the plot calling the kettle black. You know, 257 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: there was a meeting several months ago that the South 258 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: Africans hosted, and of course the Chinese were there, and 259 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: the South Africans and most of our major allies in 260 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: the world, and the United States state away. If we 261 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: continue to act unilaterally, and if we continue to lecture 262 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: the European allies as if they're the problem of the 263 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: world and yet not be tough enough in our rhetoric 264 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: towards both China and Russia, I think that these authoritarian 265 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: regimes are going to make more in ropes in global 266 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: public opinion about who's the agent of instability and who isn't. 267 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: I would never call President Trump on isolation, as he's not. 268 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: He's certainly an interventionist. But the United States, I think 269 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: is strongest when we're working with and through our allies, 270 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: our NATO allies like Denmark and Each Asia, our allies 271 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: like Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, our strategic partner India, Australia. 272 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: I really hope that Trump administration will get back to 273 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: what has been so successful for every president since Truman 274 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: and Eisenhower, and that is the United States leads these 275 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: alliances that China and Russia do not have. That's our 276 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: strategic advantage over them. But if we drive them away, 277 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: then we weaken ourselves. 278 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: You mentioned Taiwan, and I'm curious how the US intervention 279 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 2: in Venezuela might have changed President She's approach to Taiwan. 280 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: The reporter David Sanger asked President Trump about this during 281 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 2: an interview he and his colleagues at The New York 282 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: Times conducted last week. Sanger asked, have you created a 283 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: president that you may come to regret later on? 284 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: No, because this was a real threat. 285 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: But Trump added, Taiwan is quote a source of pride 286 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: for President She. 287 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: He considers it to be part of China, and that's 288 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: up to him what he's going to be doing. 289 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 2: But you know, President Trump said, I've expressed to him 290 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 2: that I would be very unhappy if he did that, 291 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 2: meaning invaded Taiwan. 292 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: I don't think he'll do that. I hope he does. 293 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: You don't think you've set a president? 294 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: Do you think? To borrow David Sanger's question, President Trump 295 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 2: has created a president here he may come to regret 296 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 2: later on. 297 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: It is a slippery slow I don't think the Chinese 298 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: feel that the People's Liberation Army is ready to invade Taiwan, 299 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: at least not ready to mount a cross straight invasion, 300 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: a combined forces operation of naval vessels, of submarines, aircraft. 301 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: It's extraordinarily difficult to do. And the Taiwanese, of course, 302 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: have been watching the Ukrainians in the ways the Ukrainians 303 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 1: have held off a much larger Russian army through drone warfare, 304 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: through intelligence operations, and so I think there's a doubt 305 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: in the Chinese mind about it. But there's no question 306 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: that Chichinpin wants to bring Taiwan under the control directly 307 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: of the People's Republic of China, and should he attempt 308 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: to do that at some point in the future, he 309 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: may well use what the United States did in Venezuela 310 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: to justify, well, if the United States can invade a 311 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: sovereign member of the United Nations, that's the Chinese line. 312 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: Of course, we have the right to take back what 313 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: they believe incorrectly is a territory of the People's Republic 314 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: of China. I think it also makes Putin's argument about 315 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,239 Speaker 1: wanting to claim Ukrainian territory. At least you know, in 316 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: the minds of some people, not you, not me, a 317 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 1: more plausible explanation of what they're trying to do. So 318 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: we're giving them a tactical advantage and how they describe 319 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: what their own strategies are in the case of China, Taiwan, 320 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: the case of Russia Ukraine, and that's very ill advised 321 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: for the United States to be doing. 322 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 2: Ambassador Burns, thank you very. 323 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: Much, David. Thank you always a pleasure. 324 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 2: This is The Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gerat. 325 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 2: The show is hosted by me wanha and Sarah Holder. 326 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 2: The show is made by Aaron Edwards, David Fox, Eleanor 327 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 2: Harrison Dengate, Patty Hirsch, Rachel Lewis, Chrisky, Naomi Julia Press, 328 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 2: Tracy Samuelson, Naomi Shavin, Alex se Cura, Julia Weaver, Young Young, 329 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: and take Yasuzawa. To get more from The Big Take 330 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 2: and unlimited access to all of Bloomberg dot Com, subscribe 331 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 2: today at Bloomberg dot Com Slash Podcast offer. Thanks for listening. 332 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 2: We'll be back on Monday.