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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.

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Speaker 2: This is Bloomberg Business of Sports.

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Speaker 3: Business of Sports can be intimidating for hard for a

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Speaker 3: start to break into.

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Speaker 4: We really appreciate where our owners are actually there, you know,

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Speaker 4: with us through the journey teams.

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Speaker 1: Ours especially, then very intentional to diversify at all levels

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Speaker 1: of the company bybe.

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Speaker 4: We're in the golden years for the NFL and college football.

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Speaker 4: Our demographic reach has continued to explode. This is going

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Speaker 4: to be really unlocking the streaming platform for sports fans.

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Speaker 2: Sports evaluations are rising. We'll see when they peak.

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Speaker 5: You don't have to be the best in your sports

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Speaker 5: to make a whole ton of money.

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio, don't you This

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Speaker 2: is the Bloomberg Business of Sports show.

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Speaker 5: Will we explore the big money issues in the world

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Speaker 5: the sports.

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Speaker 6: I'm Michael Barr, I'm Scarlett Foe.

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Speaker 5: Damian Sasaur has the week Off coming up. Today, we

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Speaker 5: take you to the Bloomberg invest Summit and hear from

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Speaker 5: executives from the Boston Red Sox, Milwaukee Brewers, and Washington Commanders.

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Speaker 6: Plus we've got highlights from the latest episode of Bloomberg

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Speaker 6: Latitudes with hustlind Amin. She speaks with Live commissioner Greg

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Speaker 6: Norman and one of liv's biggest stars, Phil Mickelson.

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Speaker 5: That is straight ahead on the Bloomberg Business of Sports.

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Speaker 5: But first, the NHL pass crown a new champion.

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Speaker 7: Ten seconds left, two Rock Pithers a dream thirty years

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Speaker 7: in the baking. He's who we are, the Florida Pithers.

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Speaker 2: Heaven the Stanley Cup.

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Speaker 5: What Stanly is coming?

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Speaker 7: You always have a president zut Florida. Oh Baker, the

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Speaker 7: Pethers have won the Stanley Cup for the first time.

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Speaker 7: Redis history.

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Speaker 5: Yeah wow, so low key Jording is now is Keith Wackle.

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Speaker 5: He is the NHL's chief business and a revenue officer.

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Speaker 5: Keith First, you can't you gotta love that call. Welcome

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Speaker 5: to the Bloomberg Business of Sports.

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Speaker 4: Thank you very much. That is one of the greatest

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Speaker 4: radio calls I think I've ever heard in any sport.

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Speaker 6: It's right up there with al Michaels in nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I adore that one. Do you believe in miracles? Yes,

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Speaker 5: that's what my wife says about me when I go

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Speaker 5: to work every day. Anyway, Well, I'm going to start

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Speaker 5: with the obvious question, Keith, this you know, this went

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Speaker 5: to a game seven, and you know, first when the

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Speaker 5: Florida Panthers they went out to a three games to

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Speaker 5: nothing lead, and we're thinking, okay, this is going to

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Speaker 5: be a sweep, and all of a sudden, Edmonton said

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Speaker 5: hold the phone there because we got something to say,

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Speaker 5: and then they reeled the next three back, which I

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Speaker 5: have to think think that Game seven was an exciting

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Speaker 5: one to watch for people at home.

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Speaker 4: It's the two greatest words in sports, game seven and

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Speaker 4: couldn't be happier that it went there. And our competitive

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Speaker 4: balance usually creates the most playoff games in professional sports

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Speaker 4: compared to some of the other leagues that have seven

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Speaker 4: game series. We average really close to six games per series,

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Speaker 4: and we had a total of eighty eight games this

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Speaker 4: past playoffs. So it was a surprise to see the

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Speaker 4: Panthers jump out and a pleasant surprise to see the

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Speaker 4: fight in Edmonton and to come back to three to three.

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Speaker 4: What a great story hasn't happened in sport and over

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Speaker 4: eighty years, And I couldn't have set a better stage

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Speaker 4: for Game seven. Winner take All had the sports landscape

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Speaker 4: all to ourselves. The amount of media on a global basis,

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Speaker 4: and certainly in North America was unpressed attented across kind

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Speaker 4: of every distribution platform.

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Speaker 3: So what could have.

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Speaker 4: Been certainly a disappointing final from the number of games standpoint,

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Speaker 4: turned into the absolute perfect storm. What a great game

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Speaker 4: it was, and the numbers show it across every metric.

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Speaker 4: So it was truly an incredible postseason for the NHL.

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Speaker 6: It was, And congratulations to the Florida Panthers, and of

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Speaker 6: course also congratulations and our regrets to the Edmonton Oilers

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Speaker 6: Hockey club which got very very close but wasn't able

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Speaker 6: to capture the ultimate prize. But Keith, come on, you

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Speaker 6: gotta admit that if the New York team went all

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Speaker 6: the way to the end, the number one media market

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Speaker 6: the whole thirty year anniversary of the last time the

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Speaker 6: New York Rangers won a Stanley Cup. From a business

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Speaker 6: point of view, having a big market media team win

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Speaker 6: the ultimate prize would have been invaluable.

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Speaker 4: I think the audience now knows Scarlett's a big time Ranger,

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Speaker 4: but it was masked in a good question. Here's what

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Speaker 4: I'll tell you. Clearly, I do major markets helped drive ratings,

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Speaker 4: But the question is and what we think was so

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Speaker 4: incredible about this series was, first off, you had one

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Speaker 4: US market right on the smaller side and a Canadian market,

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Speaker 4: and we think that this is better for the future

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Speaker 4: of the sport. We grew the audience and fans for

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Speaker 4: life in Florida, certainly in South Florida. In addition, we

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Speaker 4: got to showcase Conor McDavid and a bunch of other

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Speaker 4: incredible superstars in our sport that don't often get that

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Speaker 4: exposure in the US because, as you know, traditional and

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Speaker 4: they always want the biggest markets, and you know, you

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Speaker 4: don't see a lot of that. What's been great about

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Speaker 4: our relationship with ESPN, ABC and Warner Brothers Discovery is

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Speaker 4: they have showcased a significant amount of Canadian teams, and

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Speaker 4: our fans have seen Austin Matthews and they have seen

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Speaker 4: Connor McDavid, So that helped. But when you look at it,

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Speaker 4: sixteen point three million viewers watched Game seven of the

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Speaker 4: Stanley Cup across North America, second most watched of all time.

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Speaker 4: But what is an amazing stat is it is the

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Speaker 4: number one rated sport between the NHL, NBA and Major

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Speaker 4: League Baseball finals since twenty nineteen, and that just shows

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Speaker 4: you the potential. So to your point, if we're doing

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Speaker 4: sixteen point three million viewers for large to Edmonton, you

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Speaker 4: know there is upside, significant upside when you do get

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Speaker 4: major media markets. But like I said, when we look

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Speaker 4: at our outdoor games, when we look at our our

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Speaker 4: All Star gas, we look at all these ten pole

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Speaker 4: events and this Stanley Cup, you can argue that it's

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Speaker 4: better for the future of the sport to be growing

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Speaker 4: fandom in these markets, these you know, so to speak.

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Speaker 4: You can say non traditional hockey markets. But listen Florida

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Speaker 4: right now. You know you look at what the Tampa

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Speaker 4: Bay Lightning have done and now the Florida Panthers. Yep,

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Speaker 4: that's a pretty good state for hockey.

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Speaker 6: I'll tell you that much, absolutely, And I have a

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Speaker 6: bunch of questions to follow up on that, but I

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Speaker 6: want to pick up on something you said when it

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Speaker 6: comes to superstars like Connor McDavid, we know that hockey

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Speaker 6: has long struggled with marketing it's best players, even during

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Speaker 6: their prime as superstars. Connor McDavid, Nathan McKinnon. As much

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Speaker 6: as the NHL tries, they aren't household names like Lebron

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Speaker 6: James or Steph Curry, the tiktoks, the players getting off

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Speaker 6: the bus and suits is definitely a thing, but nothing

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Speaker 6: like the attention that NBA players get. Why is it

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Speaker 6: harder do you think for NHL players to break out

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Speaker 6: as superstars.

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Speaker 4: I don't think it's hard for them to break out

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Speaker 4: a superstars, certainly amongst the fans of the sport. Like

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Speaker 4: you just said, you named two of the greatest.

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Speaker 6: But as house teams among sports.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, the reason is it's the ultimate team sport.

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Speaker 4: It's always been that way. The way that these players

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Speaker 4: think about the team first, and I'm not saying other

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Speaker 4: sports superstars don't, but it is very different. It is

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Speaker 4: the ultimate team sport. And you have to remember, the

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Speaker 4: best player in the world in Connor McDavid, usually plays

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Speaker 4: somewhere between eighteen and twenty minutes a third of a

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Speaker 4: hockey game. Right the most minutes you ever played was

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Speaker 4: Game seven, and it was somewhere in the mid to

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Speaker 4: to you know, twenty six, twenty seven, twenty eight minutes.

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Speaker 4: That's not even half the game. When you look at

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Speaker 4: the quarterback, you look at the running back, you look

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Speaker 4: at as you said, Lebron James, they're playing the majority

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Speaker 4: of the game, the focus is on them and that

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Speaker 4: is the biggest difference, and it is the ultimate team sport.

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Speaker 4: You need all players on the ice to have success.

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Speaker 4: They also don't want to put themselves ahead of the team.

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Speaker 4: They're starting to grow their social media profiles, which is helpful.

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Speaker 4: A lot of them have great personalities that we're showcasing

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Speaker 4: through all of our content, but you're going to start

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Speaker 4: to see more of that. Right you read about the

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Speaker 4: release that we did on our Box to Box show,

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Speaker 4: which will be on Amazon Prime coming this October. That

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Speaker 4: really lean into these personalities because they are They're good

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Speaker 4: looking guys, they're very personable, their stories are amazing. So

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Speaker 4: we as a league are focusing on that trying to

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Speaker 4: build the stars. But in the end, it is the

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Speaker 4: ultimate team game, and.

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Speaker 6: I think you really see that in how former regular

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Speaker 6: guy players do after they retire. Paul Bisnett with a

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Speaker 6: Spinning chick Litz podcast, Sean Avery, Kevin Biex, like all

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Speaker 6: these guys who are known as regular guys and have

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Speaker 6: that persona, but they have really broken out once their

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Speaker 6: hockey career ended because they're no longer on a team

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Speaker 6: the way they were when they were playing professionally.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we have some great personalities, you know, like I said,

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Speaker 4: current players, former players, and we need to continue to

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Speaker 4: build that. You're absolutely right. We do lag behind in

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Speaker 4: a lot of the personal social media profiles of these guys.

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Speaker 4: But the new players that have come into the league,

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Speaker 4: you know, currently in their twenties and new crop. When

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Speaker 4: you look at these new players, they've grown up with

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Speaker 4: social media, they've grown up with building a little bit

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Speaker 4: of their own brand versus you know, certainly back when

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Speaker 4: the players were playing in the in the eighties and

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Speaker 4: the nineties, but even Sidney Crosby, Alex Ovechkin, you know,

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Speaker 4: kind of that that those you know, superstars now of

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Speaker 4: the old guard, if you will, they didn't grow.

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Speaker 8: Up with that.

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Speaker 4: That wasn't there. That wasn't a thing when they were

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Speaker 4: coming into the league. So I think you're starting to

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Speaker 4: see more of it. I'll take more time, but showcases

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Speaker 4: like Game seven, when you start to see the interest

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Speaker 4: that we had, I think you that's how you help

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Speaker 4: bill stars and that's why we have such great media partners, uh,

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Speaker 4: you know, including Rogers in Canada, to help us tell

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Speaker 4: those stories and get that content out there.

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Speaker 5: I'm going to file this next question under when one

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Speaker 5: door closes, another door opens and unfortunately the Arizona Coyotes, Uh,

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Speaker 5: they're folding up. Why didn't it go very well in Arizona?

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Speaker 5: And hey to the folks in Utah, hats off.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I can't really get into, you know, why it didn't work.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't say it didn't work in Arizona. You know,

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Speaker 4: clearly everyone knows. You know, location of the building and

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Speaker 4: the venue and the areas around it and everything that

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Speaker 4: goes now that you see in the entertainment world is

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Speaker 4: very important, and that's what they were trying to achieve.

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Speaker 4: I think there was great success in the desert. It

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Speaker 4: showed that the market can work. But at this point

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Speaker 4: they need to find a building and we'll see what

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Speaker 4: the future holds.

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Speaker 5: Keith Wanktell, NHL's chief Business and revenue officer. We know him, Scarlett,

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Speaker 5: we know him. Thank you, Keith for joining us on

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Speaker 5: The Bloomberg Business of Sports. We appreciate it.

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Speaker 6: Up next on the show, we hear from Greg Norman

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Speaker 6: and Phil Nicholson about the rise of live golf.

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Speaker 5: You're listening to The Bloomberg Business of Sports Bloomberg Radio

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Speaker 5: around the world.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 5: This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports show, where we

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Speaker 5: explore the big money issues in the world of sports.

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Speaker 5: I'm Michael Barr with Scarlett Fu and Damian Sasaur. We've

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Speaker 5: got a special treat for you this week. Later the show,

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Speaker 5: we'll head to the Bloomberg invest Summit held this week

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Speaker 5: in Lower Manhattan. Our buddy Jason Kelly was there and

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Speaker 5: spoke with some big name executives from the Boston Red Sox,

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Speaker 5: Milwaukee Brewers, and Washington Commanders. But before all that, we

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Speaker 5: take a trip to Asia. On the latest edition of

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Speaker 5: Bloomberg Latitude with Haslinda Amin. He has brought us into

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Speaker 5: the world of live Golf and speaks with the organization's

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Speaker 5: chairman and one of its big stars.

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Speaker 1: He's on a mission to shake up golf. Greg Norman,

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Speaker 1: the plays player who's built a multi million dollar business empire.

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Speaker 1: Now he's signing up big stars and attracting a new

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Speaker 1: generation of fans. Fast and furist rival to traditional golf.

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Speaker 8: We're not just sport wes sports entertainment and culture.

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Speaker 1: Bart his liptour isn't without its critics. Bankrolled by the

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Speaker 1: Saudist and blamed the driving division among players, But Normann

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Speaker 1: says it's here to stay and the path to securing

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Speaker 1: lift's future lies in Asia. Great Norman, one of the

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Speaker 1: biggest names in golf, has developed a reputation as a

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Speaker 1: great disruptor with a controversial live golf Now the Great

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Speaker 1: White Shark, as is known, is ready to take a

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Speaker 1: bite of the golf market in Asia and beyond it.

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Speaker 1: He is one of golf's most recognizable faces, with eighty

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Speaker 1: eight professional victories to his name and thirty top ten

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Speaker 1: finishes at Maje's Bart is known for more than just

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Speaker 1: his swing, with a tough reputation both on and off.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Norman is the driving force behind the upstart

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Speaker 1: Left Tour, which has upundited the game and caused a

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Speaker 1: rift with GOLs establishment. Now three years on since becoming

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Speaker 1: liv's CEO, his bullets about its.

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Speaker 8: Progress, it's very simple, one word consistent. We're stay consistent.

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Speaker 8: We'll stayed true.

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Speaker 3: To our model.

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Speaker 8: There was a lot of headwinds in the beginning because

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Speaker 8: the monopolis really control the game of golf on a

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Speaker 8: global basis, and we came along with a platform or

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Speaker 8: a business model that could work side by side within

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Speaker 8: the ecosystem. Nowhere along has led nowhere in my entire

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Speaker 8: journey in the last three years since I've been CEO commissioners,

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Speaker 8: somebody come up to me and said, what you're doing

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Speaker 8: is wrong. And I think that's a powerful enough testament

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Speaker 8: of saying that our product is our product, and our

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Speaker 8: product is received open armed by many, but by a

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Speaker 8: few who want to try and stop us for all

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Speaker 8: the wrong reasons. They haven't been able to sustain their

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Speaker 8: position in the game of golf. What we have done,

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Speaker 8: brilliantly is injected more capital into the game of golf.

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Speaker 8: Golf has finally looked on as an asset class.

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Speaker 1: Where do you go from here?

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Speaker 9: Fifty four top players, you're in more than a dozen cities.

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Speaker 10: What now?

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Speaker 8: Oh, look, we are in our infancy and growth. Be

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Speaker 8: honest with you. Just for venues. For example, we started

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Speaker 8: out a couple of years ago about doing nine and

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Speaker 8: five nine in the US five International and now that's flipped.

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Speaker 8: So the international scene, the global scene has opened their

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Speaker 8: arms to us in a significant way. The USA is

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Speaker 8: getting there, but the globe has opened up their arms.

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Speaker 8: So ultimately, what will end up doing is taking the

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Speaker 8: game to a global on a global basis.

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Speaker 1: Live golf is different, build around teams that compete against

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Speaker 1: one another rather than the more traditional single player had

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Speaker 1: to have matches seen in other tours. It's also faster,

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Speaker 1: fifty four holes for tournament versus the seventy two the

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Speaker 1: PGA play.

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Speaker 8: We'll have teams based in South America, We'll have teams

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Speaker 8: based out of Mexico in Europe.

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Speaker 1: So all of a.

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Speaker 8: Sudden, you can see how our growth corridor is, all

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Speaker 8: of a sudden starting to magnify, magnify, magnify, because once

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Speaker 8: people understand what the concept of Live is all about,

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Speaker 8: this franchise model, they get it because of all the

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Speaker 8: other sports, whether it's soccer, whether it's cricket, or whether

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Speaker 8: it's a rugby league. Even in the United States with

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Speaker 8: the NBA NFL, right, you follow your team. So the

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Speaker 8: job of the league is to build that and keep

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Speaker 8: building it and building that platform. And so where at

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Speaker 8: the Tippitty Iceberg.

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Speaker 1: The key to securing that global Expansionmen says is what

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Speaker 1: Live can offer.

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Speaker 8: What we do is we walk in with eighty five

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Speaker 8: million dollars of that already supported by US thirty five

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Speaker 8: million in value in the players and fifty million in

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Speaker 8: prize money and other stuff in production that we put

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Speaker 8: on the event. That's us, right, So when you all

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Speaker 8: of a sudden realize we're a plug and play, we

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Speaker 8: own the players, we own the production, we run the events.

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Speaker 8: All of a sudden, now you can see from a

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Speaker 8: expansion at standpoint, the people are going, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 8: I don't have to outlay all that to get this.

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Speaker 8: I can just sponsor that and have the best players

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Speaker 8: in the world on the best golf courses in the

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Speaker 8: world and the best cities in the world. It's very

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Speaker 8: easy to get that multiplying factor to move out.

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Speaker 1: Phil Nicholson was one of Livgoal's first signings, ditching the

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Speaker 1: PGA Tour and encouraging other top players to follow him.

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Speaker 1: What was it about Live Goold that made you decide

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Speaker 1: this is a series to twif.

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Speaker 11: For me, there are a number of things that went

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Speaker 11: into the decision making process. But what Live is doing

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Speaker 11: is it first of all, gave a lot of players

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Speaker 11: the opportunity to compete against the best every week, so

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Speaker 11: we have the strong field every single week. And it

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Speaker 11: gave a lot of the top players to have a

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Speaker 11: little bit of equity in what they're doing, But the

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Speaker 11: real appeal is how it is targeting a younger demographic

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Speaker 11: in the game of golf, and it's also taking advantage

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Speaker 11: of areas throughout the world that have not seen professional

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Speaker 11: golf at the highest level and bringing that to those areas.

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Speaker 1: You've talked about how Live will go through a disruption phase,

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Speaker 1: and I think you put a number to it about

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Speaker 1: two years. What happens then? What would you like to

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Speaker 1: see what is likely to transpire?

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Speaker 11: Well, all of the factors that are taking place kind

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Speaker 11: of quietly behind closed doors need to be ironed out,

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Speaker 11: and other people are working on that, and that stuff

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Speaker 11: is getting done. But as that disruption phase takes place,

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Speaker 11: the stranglehold on sponsors, the stranglehold on manufactures, the stranglehold

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Speaker 11: on players, the control that is being let go. And

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Speaker 11: so now that there's talk of this potential merger and

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Speaker 11: so forth, sponsors are more interested, not as controversial. Players

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Speaker 11: are starting to come over more. They're starting to see

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Speaker 11: the benefits.

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Speaker 1: Michelson has been one of the most vocal figures in

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Speaker 1: the often bitter battle between Live and the PGA over

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Speaker 1: the future of golf. Right now, though when it comes

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Speaker 1: to the business of golf. There's a great divide in

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Speaker 1: the pro golf world and conversations are ongoing about possibly

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Speaker 1: a unification. Is that necessary to elevate the golf world.

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Speaker 11: I don't know if it's necessary.

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Speaker 5: I know that.

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Speaker 11: A few years ago, it was not an option to

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Speaker 11: have elevated events. It was not an option for players

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Speaker 11: to have equity, and it wasn't an option for players

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Speaker 11: to transcend social media markets and create YouTube channels and

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Speaker 11: have their own social media posts the way Bryce is

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Speaker 11: done and the way Bryson has brought golf in this

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Speaker 11: cool hit vibe to so many people on YouTube. That

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Speaker 11: wasn't an option. So until Live happened, none of that

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Speaker 11: was going to happen. And now because of Live, those

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Speaker 11: are all happening. We have elevated events every week out

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Speaker 11: here on Live, We have equity, and we have the

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Speaker 11: ability to use our social media platforms. However, we want

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Speaker 11: to help promote the game and it's starting to change now,

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Speaker 11: or it is changing on the PGA Tour. So this

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Speaker 11: is all a really positive sign for all of us.

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Speaker 11: And so the competition that both tours are providing is

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Speaker 11: elevating both tours and so is it necessary that there's

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Speaker 11: a merger. Probably not, but it would be a good

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Speaker 11: thing if it wasn't, if there wasn't any hostility.

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Speaker 1: If the end goal is unification, where does it leave you.

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Speaker 1: Because we know that you've expressed some harsh wattz towards PGA,

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Speaker 1: are you able to think rebuild that relationship?

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Speaker 11: So I need to let that stuff go. I need

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Speaker 11: to let go of all the experiences that I've had

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Speaker 11: in the past that that we're less than positive. I

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Speaker 11: need to let go of my hostilities and we all

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Speaker 11: do for the betterment of the game.

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Speaker 1: Updating goal's image for a younger generation is as important

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Speaker 1: as recruiting the game's biggest stance, and that means appealing

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Speaker 1: to new fans and embracing technology. A left war is

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Speaker 1: more than just a round of golf.

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Speaker 12: Organizers want to create an immassive experience, harnessing entertainment and

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Speaker 12: technology to draw in the fans and inspire the next

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Speaker 12: generation of colts.

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Speaker 8: How do we reach down to the eighteen to thirty

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Speaker 8: five year old market. How do we bring these kids

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Speaker 8: these influences? Is this new generation of people interested in

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Speaker 8: the game of golf? There's seven hundred and thirty eight

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Speaker 8: million people in the world who are interested in the

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Speaker 8: game of golf don't play the game of golf. Finentially,

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Speaker 8: there's about sixty million golfers, so we have another six

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Speaker 8: hundred and seventy million people we can go figure out

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Speaker 8: how to get them interested not just in live but

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Speaker 8: in the game of golf. And so we sit down

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Speaker 8: and you talk about this internally with your production team,

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Speaker 8: you talk about with your marketing people. I've truly believe

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Speaker 8: we are on the road to doing that already because

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Speaker 8: when you look at our audience base today that we

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Speaker 8: have like just around fifty percent of our ticket sales

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Speaker 8: of forty five years and older and younger following the

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Speaker 8: PGA tourists, the oldest aging demographic and sport is sixty

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Speaker 8: seven and a half.

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Speaker 5: So in a matter of.

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Speaker 8: Year and a half, basically we've pulled that sixty seven

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Speaker 8: and a half down to forty five because of our product,

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Speaker 8: because of the entertainment side there is there are places

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Speaker 8: around the world where thirty two percent of our ticket

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Speaker 8: sales are women, so they're coming to an event that

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Speaker 8: they feel inclusive with, all right, So all of a sudden,

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Speaker 8: we're seeing these days points coming out going my gosh,

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Speaker 8: why haven't we're owning this space?

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Speaker 9: Give us a sense of who you're in talks with

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Speaker 9: in terms of distribution, in terms of streaming, because their

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Speaker 9: opinions out there are suggesting that perhaps people are not

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Speaker 9: really tuning in and watching this.

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Speaker 8: How do you reseive, Well, what's the definition of tuning in?

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Speaker 8: Turning on the TV and turning on the channel forty

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Speaker 8: four and say, Okay, I'm going to watch the next

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Speaker 8: four and a half hours. That's tuning in, right, But

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Speaker 8: to an eighteen year old to twenty five year old

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Speaker 8: tuning in maybe twelve seconds on the phone, Okay, let

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Speaker 8: me see this. Then I'm gonna go back and do that,

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Speaker 8: and then I'll come back over here in another fourteen

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Speaker 8: seconds on this bom That to me is tuning in. That's,

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Speaker 8: to me is a market that's enormously wealthy, right, an

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Speaker 8: enormously influential in the direction where you go.

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Speaker 5: That's Live Golf's Greg Norman and Phil Mickelson speaking with

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Speaker 5: has Linda I Mean on the latest edition of Bloomberger Latitude.

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Speaker 5: Catch the show all weekend long on Bloomberg Television. Listening

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Speaker 5: to the Bloomberg Business of Sports. Up next, golf coverage continues,

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Speaker 5: we hear from some of the newest investors into the PGA.

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Speaker 5: I'm Michael Barr with Scarlett Foo and Damian Sasauur.

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Speaker 8: And this is.

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg Your listening to Bloomberg Business of Sports.

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Speaker 5: From Bloomberg Radio. Thanks for joining us on the Bloomberg

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Speaker 5: Business of Sports show, where we explore the big money

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Speaker 5: issues in the world of sports. I'm Michael Barr with

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Speaker 5: Scarlett Foo and Damian Sasauur. The Bloomberg invest Summit was

438
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 5: held earlier this week in Lower Manhattan, featuring leaders in

439
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 5: asset management, banking, private markets, and sports. Our own Jason

440
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 5: Kelly was at the two day event and had a

441
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 5: chance to catch up with some of the biggest names

442
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 5: in the business. First up, Jason spoke with Red Sox

443
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 5: chairman Tom Werner and Mark Attanasio, the owner of the

444
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 5: Milwaukee Brewers. They're part of the Strategic Sports which just

445
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 5: invested three billion dollars into the PGA tour. Here's part

446
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 5: of that conversation, golf.

447
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 13: If you look at it, if anyone falls the headlines,

448
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 13: not exactly, It's not not a mess.

449
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 3: When it comes to a business is that part of

450
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 3: the attraction.

451
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 14: Well, it starts with the macro and the brand.

452
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

453
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 14: And I was sitting I'm on a committee with John,

454
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 14: actually a couple of committees with John and Tom at

455
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 14: Major League Baseball John Henry and they were talking about

456
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 14: the opportunity here, but I didn't realize that what they

457
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 14: were working on. They just talked about some of the

458
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 14: challenges that were being faced. And I said to John, well,

459
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 14: to me, given that brand, the more challenges, the more opportunity. Right,

460
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 14: thirty three years of investing at Crescent, that's what we found.

461
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 14: You know, the easy investments don't really create a lot

462
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 14: of opportunity that more difficult ones do. So Tom and

463
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 14: John called me a few days later and said, were

464
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 14: you really serious on how you look at that? And

465
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 14: would you invest in the PGA? And of course, and

466
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 14: I still didn't know what they were working on. And

467
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 14: then they let me under the tent and it's it's

468
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 14: extremely exciting.

469
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 3: And so Tom, what was it for you?

470
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 13: I mean you, you know your Fenway Sports group, obviously

471
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 13: the Red Sox, Liverpool, Pittsburgh Penguins, ness in the sports

472
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 13: network and more.

473
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 3: What was it about golf that jumped out.

474
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 15: To you well, as most of you know, the structure

475
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 15: of golf a couple of years ago is that it

476
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 15: was a nonprofit and the players were independent contractors. And

477
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:42,719
Speaker 15: so this now is a league that the players are

478
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 15: now owners, they have equity in the league, and this

479
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 15: SSG and Fenway Sports Group are really investing in the

480
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,479
Speaker 15: commercial growth of the game. And of course it all

481
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 15: starts with, you know, what can create a better fan experience.

482
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 15: And you know, we are grateful that we were selected

483
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 15: because it was a very competitive situation to invest in

484
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 15: the new structure. But you know, we think that and

485
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 15: Mark is part of this group, that the operational experience

486
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 15: that we have in sports can benefit the players and

487
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 15: be a resource.

488
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 13: And so so take us inside this for verbial ten

489
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 13: a little bit like what do you need to do,

490
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 13: Like what's the low hanging fruit here? And what are

491
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 13: the things you're seeing that can be relatively easily fixed

492
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 13: or changed to improve those elements.

493
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 15: Well, one thing that Jay Monahan, who we think is

494
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 15: a very strong leader, is doing is we are commencing

495
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 15: a very extensive research study that it's called fan Forward.

496
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 15: But Rob Manfred did the same thing in I think

497
00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 15: twenty nineteen where we did a survey about what was

498
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 15: good about baseball how to make the experience better, and

499
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 15: you know a lot of positive changes have come from that.

500
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 15: But you know, we're going to be listening to our

501
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 15: fans and you know, just one one idea that we've

502
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 15: been talking about is when you think about the experience

503
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 15: of going to an event on the tour, that we

504
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 15: are trying to event tize it and make it really

505
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 15: more must see. And somebody at the PGA was looking

506
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 15: at Louisville. You know, they have an event every year

507
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 15: that is really just two minutes long in its actual

508
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 15: composition of the Kentucky Derby, but around it they have

509
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 15: a week long festival. So one of the things that

510
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 15: we're talking about is how to create experiences at PGA

511
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 15: tour events that will make them more attractive and.

512
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 13: So Mark as you look at this you're a global investor, obviously,

513
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 13: one of the elements that is clearly a play here

514
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 13: is of what needs to happen.

515
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 14: Well, if you look at the golfers, whether they're at

516
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 14: Live or PGA, these are some of the best athletes

517
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 14: in the world and across all sports. You want to

518
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 14: see the best athletes competing against each other. That's why,

519
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 14: for example, you have so much interest in the Olympics,

520
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 14: and so we you know, we've hoped to be a

521
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 14: bridge or a catalyst to try to bring the golfers

522
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 14: back together so they could compete more than just a

523
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 14: handful of times each year.

524
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 3: What's your level of confidence at this moment that that'll happen.

525
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 14: Well, look, we're all optimistic, right we know, so we

526
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 14: know how difficult it is and what the hurdles are,

527
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 14: including some regulatory ones. Yeah, but it really should happen,

528
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 14: and so I think it will.

529
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 13: And so Tom, when you think about you know, one

530
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 13: of the things that is very compelling about sort of

531
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 13: the data underneath this.

532
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: Is this notion of sort of off course.

533
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 13: You know, many of us in this room, for better worse,

534
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 13: go out and hack it around the you know, nine

535
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 13: or eighteen holes. But increasingly more people, especially younger people,

536
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 13: are experiencing golf in different ways. How do you, through

537
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 13: the PGA monetize, I mean, how do you take advantage

538
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 13: of that movement towards the top golf and the sims

539
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 13: and whatnot.

540
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 15: Well, the first thing is to acknowledge that one factoid

541
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 15: I think it was up there is that more people

542
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 15: were playing off course golf in twenty twenty three than encore,

543
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 15: so they're both growing. But off course golf things like

544
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 15: top golf, is very attractive, So you know, it is

545
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 15: all about the popularity of the game. One of the

546
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 15: great things about golf, as opposed to the NFL, for example,

547
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 15: which you know has its own great attributes, is that

548
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 15: people are playing it. And so when they're watching watching golf,

549
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 15: they are participants in the sports. So you know, whether

550
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 15: they you know, play golf at their country club or

551
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 15: they're playing mini golf, you know, with their local hangout,

552
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 15: it's all good for the game.

553
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 14: And that's you know, five year olds can play, or

554
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 14: Hall of Fame announcer Bob Ucker turned ninety.

555
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: He still plays golf right pretty well.

556
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 5: Actually, that's Red Sox chairman Tom Warner and Mark Atanacio,

557
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,479
Speaker 5: the owner of the Milwaukee Brewers, speaking with Bloomberg's Jason

558
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 5: Kelly at the Bloomberg invest Summit. Next, Jason sat down

559
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 5: with Josh Harris, the owner of many sports franchises, including

560
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 5: the Philadelphia seventy six Ers and the Washington Commanders. Here's

561
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 5: a part of their conversation.

562
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 13: Did you ever expect that you'd be sitting here today

563
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 13: with the sports empire that you have.

564
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 10: Not my wildest dreams, Not my wildest dreams.

565
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 16: I mean the notion that I would own the Philadelphia

566
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 16: seventy six Ers where I had gone to college, the

567
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 16: New Jersey Devils where my I had grown up, and

568
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 16: then obviously a whole lot of other Crystal Palace at

569
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 16: London where i'd lived, and then obviously the Washington Commanders

570
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 16: where I spent my I was one to eighteen in Washington,

571
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 16: I was a zero to one in Philly. And then

572
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 16: I went back to penns to the notes that I

573
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 16: would own and really managed the two sports franchises that

574
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 16: I had grown up really passionate about.

575
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 10: Was incredible. It's an incredible dream come true.

576
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 13: And so what did you see other than I believe

577
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 13: you had been at Penn when the Sixers won a championship?

578
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 9: Is that right?

579
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: Like?

580
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 3: What did you see that was.

581
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 13: From from your investor perspective that was compelling about sports?

582
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: Then?

583
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, So my personal journey was obviously I grew up with.

584
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 16: Washington Commanders and then Washington Commanders, but John Regan's Joe Gibbs,

585
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 16: you know, three Super Bowls and nineteen eighty two, the

586
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 16: Commanders won Super Bowl and then Redskins. Everyone came out

587
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 16: in the streets, and DC was a very divided city,

588
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 16: and I witnessed all that. And then I went up

589
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 16: to penn and saw the Philadelphia seventy Sixers win the

590
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 16: NBA Championship, and Philly was also a city that was

591
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 16: kind of having trouble. So I witnessed everyone come out

592
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 16: two ticker tape parades in one year when I was

593
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 16: seventeen to eighteen years old, and it really dawned on

594
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 16: me that sports were the unified communities, you know.

595
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 10: And then sort of started Apollo, and.

596
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 16: Then obviously got to the opportunity to achieve financial success.

597
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 16: The financial crisis happened and the Sixers we'd heard the

598
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 16: Sixers might be not in comcasts long term future, and

599
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 16: we just called I literally just called them and went

600
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 16: back to my day job of doing what's called a

601
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 16: corporate carve out. And I was zigging when other people

602
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 16: were zagging. It was just after the financial crisis. The

603
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 16: NBA was in lockout right. The Sixers were losing forty

604
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 16: or fifty million dollars a year, and I paid two

605
00:34:58,120 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 16: hundred and eighty million dollars for the Sixers. I put

606
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 16: together a group I called David Blitzer, my friend and

607
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 16: a friendly competitor from Blackstone and we had you know,

608
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 16: known each other, gone to Penn and we put together

609
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 16: group to buy the six Ers. I was quite nervous

610
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 16: about turning it around, but we took them from twenty

611
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 16: seventh in the league and revenue to fifth, you know,

612
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 16: and so that's now a probability. And so the idea

613
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 16: there was more of a passionate thing where I wanted

614
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 16: to really lift the city, connect with the city, bring

615
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 16: the Sixers back.

616
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 10: Obviously, in.

617
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,959
Speaker 16: Business, which we're all used to ebitdastock, price evaluation, cash flow,

618
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 16: in sports, it's about winning championships and creating memories, right,

619
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 16: So that's why I originally got into sports. And obviously

620
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 16: the journey had started as more of a value orient

621
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 16: a journey very similar to what I do at twenty

622
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 16: six North. The evolution is quite different as we go

623
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 16: into the you know, the day is today.

624
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 10: We could talk about it, but obviously I just paid.

625
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 16: At the time, I paid six billion for the Commanders

626
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 16: and had sixty times EBITDA and my credentials as a

627
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 16: value investor were shattered, I joke, but the sports has

628
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 16: changed a lot in that journey.

629
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 10: Yeah, we could talk about that.

630
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 13: Yeah, So I think you led me exactly where I

631
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 13: wanted to go, which was that six billion dollar figure.

632
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 13: You're right, doesn't look like a value when you pencil

633
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 13: it out.

634
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 3: And yet if you read the headlines.

635
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 13: Today or you know, in the past month or so

636
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 13: on Bloomberg and elsewhere, Jeffrey Lourie, your NFC East rival

637
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 13: and neighboring franchise with the Philadelphia Eagles, selling a stake

638
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 13: reportedly at a valuation of seven and.

639
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 3: A half billion dollars. That I'm not that good at math,

640
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 3: but that's.

641
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 13: Twenty five percent more than.

642
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:53,479
Speaker 3: The valuation you paid.

643
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 13: Ten billion dollars is the number that Stephen Ross is

644
00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 13: talking about again reportedly for the Dolphins and associated properties.

645
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 13: That's a huge jump. What is driving these valuations and

646
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 13: how much higher can they go?

647
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 10: Right?

648
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 16: So, if you look at the evolution of sports content,

649
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 16: right particularly the big sports, the NFL and the NBA

650
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 16: leading the way, there's a massive globalization of content because

651
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,439
Speaker 16: of the ability of people to stream content and watch

652
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 16: it on their phone.

653
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 10: So in many cases there are more people.

654
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 16: Watching the sixers in China than there are in Philly,

655
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 16: and that's the case all over the world.

656
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 5: That's Josh Harris, the owner of the Philadelphia seventy six

657
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 5: Ers and the Washington Commanders. That does it for this

658
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 5: episode of the Bloomberg Business of Sports show. We are

659
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 5: here each and every week at the same time for

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Speaker 5: my colleague Scarlett Foo and Damian Sasawer. I'm Michael Barr.

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Speaker 5: Tune in again next week for the latest on the

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Speaker 5: stories moving big old money in the world of sports.

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Speaker 5: You're listening the Bloomberg Business of Sports Bloomberg Radio around

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Speaker 5: the world.

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Speaker 16: Foo