1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Why from our nation's carad this budget thing is going 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: to do nothing Space Force. I still think it's interesting 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: President Trump not playing his cards yet. Headlines Policy and 4 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Politics colliding to Floomberg Sound On the insidings, the influencers, 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: the insides. I would rather see a congressional solution. It's 6 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 1: part of my DNA. The Senate map in looks a 7 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: lot different than it looked in. President Trump was sent 8 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: here to smash conventional norms. In a sense, Bernie Sanders 9 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: has already washed. This is Bloomberg Sound On with Kevin 10 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: Surreley on Bloomberg one oh five points seven a m 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: h D. Two. Welcome to sound On. I'm Greg's story 12 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: in for Kevin Sirelli. We're gonna talking peach bit, but 13 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: first Kevin has an exclusive interview with Secretary of State 14 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: Mike Pompeo. We were recently traveling in Colombia and you 15 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: met with that as well as President Juan Guido, who's 16 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: risking his life to meet with world leaders, including yourself, 17 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: will beheaded to Davos. Are you hopeful that these world 18 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: meetings will shift the momentum and continue the momentum against 19 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: them or a regime you know, I am when I 20 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: had a chance to meet with him. He is a 21 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: brave man. He's also a good leader who cares deeply 22 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: about the Venezuelan people, the same interest that the United 23 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: States has. And so I do hope as he meets 24 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: with European leaders when he travels to Davos, they too 25 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: will see that this is a worthy and noble goal 26 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: that we're engaged in restoring democracy the humanitarian calamity that 27 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: is Venezuela. Now some six million people by the end 28 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: of this year will have fled the country. In a 29 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: country this size of thirty million or so of the population, 30 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: this is a staggering humanitarian crisis when the United States 31 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: wants to do its best to resolve in a way 32 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: that can only happen when they are free, fair, democratic 33 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: elections that lead to the people's choice to be the 34 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: leader of that country. In Colombia, President Duku at the 35 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: conference cautioned against the threat of Hezbollah in the region. 36 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: And you yourself, Serve said that Hezbollah has quote found 37 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: a home in Venezuela. How significant of a role does 38 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: Hezbollah play in the region, You know too much, And 39 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: I mentioned it in Venezuela, but in the Triborder area 40 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: in Brazil. This is again an area where Iranian influence. 41 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: We talk about them as the world's largest state sponsor 42 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: of terror. We do that intentionally. It's the world's largest. 43 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: Is not just a Middle East phenomenon so well, when 44 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: folks think of Hezbollah, they typically think of Syria and Lebanon, 45 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: but Hesbla has now put down roots throughout the globe 46 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: and in South America. And it's great to see now 47 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: multiple countries and now having designated hes Blah as a 48 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: terrorist organization means we can work together to stamp out 49 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: the security threat in the region. I'm struck by this 50 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: because even hearing you what you're saying right now, I 51 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: mean to take a step back in Iranni and backed 52 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: terrorist organization has found a home in America's backyard. It's uh, 53 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: It's something we've been talking about for some time. When 54 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: you when you see the scope and reach of what 55 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: the Islamic Republic of Run regime has done, you can't forget. 56 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: They tried to kill someone in the United States of America. 57 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: They've conducted a sad ascination campaigns in Europe. This is 58 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: a global phenomenon. When we say that Iran is the 59 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: leading destabilizing force in the Middle East and throughout the world. 60 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: It's because of this terror activity that they have now 61 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: spread as a cancer all across the globe this past week, 62 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: because you've traveled the world. We started in Germany and Berlin, 63 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: where you met with world leaders, including German Chancellor Angela Merkel. 64 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: Sure you talked about Iran, but as you know, Europe 65 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: has not always followed the same strategic route as the 66 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: United States when it comes to Iran. Did your meetings 67 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: with European leaders moved the needle in that direction at all? Yes, 68 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: their look there, we've been clear. We've had a different 69 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: view on the right way to proceed to mature that 70 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: Iran never gets a nuclear weapon, that their missile program 71 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: is contained, and that this terror regime we were just 72 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: talking about is pushback. They've never wavered from the shared objective. 73 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: That just had a different view about about how to proceed. 74 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: But if you've seen what Iran has done even in 75 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: the past few weeks, but that's nuclear extortion. They're now 76 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: threatening to leave the NPT. So I did. I talked 77 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: with my European counterparts while I was there. They have 78 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: now uh taken a step under the j c p 79 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,839 Speaker 1: o A to invoke the dispute resolution mechanism. I think 80 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: not only they, but the world can now see that 81 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: this rogue regime has no intention of complying with the 82 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: central tenants of what that agreement contained, and the world 83 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: must unite to ensure that Iran never has a nuclear 84 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: When I saw President mcrown say that yesterday, I know 85 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: he means that now we need to work together to 86 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: achieve When you say they have no intention, than than 87 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 1: how do you get Tamron to go to the United Nations, 88 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: to come to the United Nations to work with the 89 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: international community aside from the sanctions and the various military 90 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: response options. Ultimately, the people of Iran will get what 91 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: they so richly deserve, a regime that behaves in ways 92 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: that are consistent with the value sets of the Iranian people. 93 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 1: In the end, the Iranian people will demand their government. 94 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: You see you see it in the protests. You see 95 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: it when they walk around American flags that were put 96 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: out by the Islamic Republic's leadership, and an attempt to 97 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: so they can show pictures of Iranian people walking over 98 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: American flags, and in fact people go out of their 99 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: way not to do that. Uh. This isn't about Iran 100 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: versus the United States. This is about a regime that 101 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: has treated its own people terribly the world can see. 102 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: And it's a regime that even now the i a e. 103 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: Is trying to figure out how nuclear material got to 104 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: places that the Iranian leadership said it would not be. Uh. 105 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: And so this is a global risk. President Trump started 106 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: his remarks at the night after an American response by saying, 107 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: Iran will never have a nuclear weapon is our primary purpose, 108 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: but we have a broader set of objectives to We 109 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: just want them to behave like a normal nation and 110 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: re enter the community of nations. And and traveling with 111 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: you all week, I mean, I'm struck by just the 112 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: range of hotspot issues around the world that are going on, 113 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: and back home, the only thing that they're talking about 114 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: his impeachment and the Senate impeachment trial. Did that come 115 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: up at all in your conversations with world leaders? And 116 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: has the Senate impeachment trial endangered US interests and reputation 117 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: around the world? You know, Kevin, it hasn't come up 118 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: today except where I received a question at a press 119 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: conference about it. So, and you said you would testify it. Yeah, 120 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: I've said consistently if the law required me to testify, 121 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: how I would do so. Uh, you know, it hasn't 122 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: come up. It almost never comes up in meetings with 123 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: my counterparts. There's too many important things going on in 124 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: the world. America is too close a partner today have 125 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: with countries in the Caribbean reaching here in Kingston. Uh. 126 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: They care about so much that we do. They're such 127 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: good friends and allies. They see the noise in Washington, 128 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: but it is not something they would think in the 129 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: time that we have between us that they would raise. 130 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: How Democrats are saying that Rudy Juliani orchestrated a shadow 131 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: foreign policy and can you assure diplomat serving overseas all 132 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: around the world in dangerous places, that that's not the case. Yeah. 133 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: The foreign policy we were executing then is the same 134 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: foreign policy we're executing today. With respect to Ukraine, It's 135 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: an important country, it sits at the crossroads. It's under 136 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: enormous pressure from Russia. President Trump has taken actions to 137 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: count of Russia the President Obama refused to take. We've 138 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: provided defensive systems for the Ukrainian people so that they 139 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: can defend themselves. We've supported this new leader, President Zelinsky, 140 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: in his efforts to stamp out corruption and to build 141 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: his democracy. We're continuing to do that. Our policy with 142 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: respect to Ukraine has been set on the fundamental principles 143 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: of reducing the footprint of corruption and helping the Ukrainian 144 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: people build up a democracy while under threat from the 145 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: Russians in the east and southeast. You said that you 146 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: look forward to going there, that you have other issues 147 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: that you want to discuss with them or is that 148 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: still the case. Yeah, I'm going to get there. I'm 149 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: gonna get there before too long. I had a trip 150 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: planned and then we had an issue rise in the 151 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: Middle East that had to attend to. UH. While that 152 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: issue is not behind us, there's still a lot of 153 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,239 Speaker 1: work to do there. I'll get to UKRAINI Why should 154 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: Americans care about what happens in the Ukraine? What is 155 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: the broader theme here? Who's explaining to the American people 156 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: why US Ukraine policy matters to the average American? So 157 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: Ukraine sits at the edge between democracy and tyranny in 158 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: the easternmost parts of Europe. UH the nation they gave 159 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: up its nuclear weapons at the end of the Cold War, 160 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: and America made a commitment. They said we would assist 161 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: them with a number of things so that they could 162 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: still be a secure sovereign nation. We care about democracy everywhere. 163 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: They're a huge trading partner for the United States America. 164 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: America has a number of interests with respect to Ukraine, 165 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: and I think the level of resources we've committed there 166 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: reflects that level of interest that was Secretary of State 167 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: Mike Pompeo speaking with Bloomberger's Kevin Cerelli. You're listening to 168 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: Bloomberg nine nine one. You're listening to Bloomberg Sound on 169 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: with Kevin Curreli on Bloomberg and one oh five point 170 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: seven f m h D two. I'm Greg's story in 171 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: for Kevin Cirelli. Day two of the Senate impeachment trial 172 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: of President Trump, and Democrats are making their case for 173 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: removing him from office. House Manager Adam Schiff says there's 174 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: no dispute about what Trump did when he tried to 175 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: get Ukraine to announce an investigation related to the Biden family, 176 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: and this is why you will hear the president's lawyers 177 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: make the astounding claim that you can't impeach a present 178 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: for abusing the powers of his office, because they can't 179 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: seriously contest that that is exactly exactly what he did. 180 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: My guest is Bob Barr. He is a former prosecutor, 181 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: a former Republican congressman from Georgia, and was an impeachment 182 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: manager during the impeachment trial of President Bill Clinton. Congressman, 183 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us on sound on. Oh 184 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: it's my pleasure, great good to be with you and 185 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: your listeners. So I want to give you a chance 186 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 1: to respond to what Congressman Schiff said and some other 187 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 1: things going on in the trial. But before we get 188 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: into the pros and cons of this, could you just 189 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: take us back to um somewhat of a similar situation 190 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: in that there was a broad expectation going in that 191 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: the president was going to be acquitted. I would really 192 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: like to know what were your hopes and expectations as 193 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: you walked over there for the first time to start 194 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: making the case for removing him. The first thing we 195 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: were interested in being able to do back in February 196 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: of was to be able to present a robust case 197 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: explaining the articles of impeachment that the House had passed 198 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: just a couple of weeks before. Unlike the current UH situation. 199 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: Of course, we were bringing over a robust UH process 200 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: that laid out commission of crimes before the before the Senate, 201 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: unlike now we had Procedurally, we were facing a similar 202 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: situation that the House managers are facing now, not exactly same, 203 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: but the Senate rules at the time that is allowed 204 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: no live witnesses and limited very severely the body of 205 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: evidence that we could present to only that evidence that 206 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: was already in the public record as a result of 207 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 1: the House impeachment procedures. So UH, turning a little bit 208 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: to the to the Trump trial. So people on the 209 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: left side, UH, when you all were prosecuting Bill Clinton, 210 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: trying to have him removed from office, the allegations were 211 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: that he lied under oath, but which is a bad thing, 212 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: but not something that amountaged any sort of abuse of 213 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: the presidency, nothing that advantaged him politically. Uh, in quite 214 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: the same way. And and here we have Adam Schiff 215 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: and others on the House impeachment managers saying Donald Trump 216 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: is trying to cheat in the next election, among other things, 217 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: by withholding military aid from a country that badly needed it. 218 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: Why is it so clear to you that Bill Clinton 219 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: should have been convicted, but not Donald Trump. First and 220 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: foremost is that we in were proceeding pursuing too articles 221 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: of impeachment that expressly did what the Constitution says is 222 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: necessary to impeach and remove a president. That is, to 223 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: show that the president violated either bribery or treason, committed 224 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: those one of those two offenses, or committed other high 225 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: crimes and misdemeanors. In other words, there has to be 226 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: a crime at the center or at the foundation of 227 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: the impeachment of a president, not just any crime, but 228 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: a high crime that is a serious crime. We believed 229 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: and laid out the evidence in the House Impeachment proceedings 230 00:12:53,000 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: before the House Judiciary Committee and in late that perjury 231 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: is a serious crime under federal law, and we showed 232 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: examples of that. We also established that the president engaged 233 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: in a pattern of acts that were intended to obstruct justice, 234 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: that is, obstruct people from testifying truthfully in judicial proceedings. 235 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: Obstruction of justice is a serious federal crime. Perjury is also, 236 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: and that was the basis for the impeachment articles. So, Congressman, 237 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: there's awful lot of people who disagree with you about 238 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: that point about it having to be a crime UH 239 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:36,719 Speaker 1: at the time. And one of the things they say 240 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: is that at the time the Constitution was was ratified, 241 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: there weren't any federal crimes. There are only state crimes. 242 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: And they point to things like Alexander Hamilton's and Federal 243 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: as sixty five defining high crimes and misdemeanors as being 244 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men 245 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: or in other words, from the abuse or violation of 246 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: some public trust. Um, shouldn't that sort of thing be 247 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: does to makes sense that that sort of thing would 248 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: be something that we could remove the president from office 249 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: for what Alexander Hamilton's was talking about. UH certainly makes sense, 250 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: but it has to be looked at within the context 251 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: of the article, the language itself, that is, crimes, criminal behavior, 252 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:26,359 Speaker 1: and UH. The founders, the framers of our Constitution, expressly 253 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: rejected the notion that simply UH maladministration, which was one 254 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: of the terms that had been proposed, should be the 255 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: pay basis for an impeachment. So the framers looked very 256 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: carefully and considered very carefully whether some sort of vague 257 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: or amorphous maladministration or misadministration by a president should be 258 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: the grounds for an impeachment and opted for a far 259 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: more concise definition of an impeachable offense, which is a 260 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: serious crime. As you know, a big issue in this 261 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: trial is going to be witnesses. Uh. We have not 262 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: heard from some of the people with the most direct 263 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: evidence of what the President did. So John Bolton, mckmulveney, 264 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: Mike Pompeo, who we heard earlier say that he would 265 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: testify if if required to do so by the law. Um. Uh. 266 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: The reason they didn't testify was was at least in 267 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: large part because the President wouldn't let them testify in 268 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: the House side. We have about a minute here, um, 269 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: you know, why shouldn't those people give us their evidence 270 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: that we know exactly what the president did? Primarily because 271 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: the House failed in its responsibility to uh produce a 272 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: full record in the House. The House could have subpoena 273 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: John Bolton. They did not. They could have subpoena these 274 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: other individuals, and certainly if objections were raised as they 275 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: were by the administration, the House could have taken those 276 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: to court. Uh, and any judge that would take a 277 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: case like that certainly expedite it. The House either didn't 278 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: want to take the time to do so, or simply 279 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: didn't want the testimony, but the House failed in its 280 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: responsibility to exhaust every opportunity to get those people to testify. 281 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: I want to thank our guests. That's former Republican Congressman 282 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: Bob Barr. He was one of the House impeachment managers 283 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: during the impeachment trial of of President Bill Clinton. Back in, Congressman, 284 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us here on sound On. Uh. 285 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: We'll point out there is a new CNN poll that 286 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: has just come out saying six people think a trial 287 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: the trial should include testimony from new witnesses. You're listening 288 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: to Sound On. I'm Greg store This is Bloomberg. This 289 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: is Bloomberg. Sound On with Kevin Surreley on Bloomberg and 290 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: one oh five point seven f m h D two. 291 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: I'm Gregg Store in for Kevin Sirelli. Last night, in 292 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: the impeachment trial of Donald Trump, his lawyer j Seculo 293 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: said Democrats are trying to have the president removed from 294 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: office simply because they dislike him. Why are we here? 295 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: Are we here because of a phone call? Or are 296 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: we here before this great body? Because since the president 297 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: was sworn into office, there was a desire to see 298 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: him removed. With me here in the Bloomberg studio is 299 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News Congressional editor Anna Edgerton. She burned the midnight 300 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: Oil last night along with Jay Sekulo and a cast 301 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: of others. Uh Anna, thanks for being here. UM, let's 302 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: start with the the atmospherics of all this. What's what's 303 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: the tenor of this whole discussion been in the Senate. 304 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: It's been really interesting to watch because it's an institutional story, 305 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: but it's also kind of a human story. You know, 306 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: you have these personalities interacting and um, some very human 307 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: interactions going on on the Senate floor. UM. Adam Schiff 308 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: has been the lead impeachment manager for the House Stemmer Crats, 309 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: and he's done a really good job of presenting a 310 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,719 Speaker 1: very humble case, UM also trying to appeal to the 311 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: grandeur of the Senate and making it clear that he 312 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: is just there to present the houses, the Houses case, 313 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: the evidence that they found, and really call on senators 314 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: to do the constitutional duty. So he has said, you know, 315 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: reminded senators that the founding Fathers gave the Senate the 316 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: ability to try impeachment cases because there's no other body 317 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: that would be that would have the same self confidence, 318 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: the same kind of gravitas to try such a um 319 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: a serious um allegation and possibly remove a president from office. Um. 320 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: They We've also seen some very matter of fact presentations 321 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: from the other House impeachment managers, just kind of slogging 322 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: through all of the evidence that the House has to 323 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: protect their case. We did see a few fireworks, especially 324 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: with the presentation at about one o'clock in the morning 325 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: from Jerry Nadler, the House Judiciary Chairman. Uh. Yeah. Around 326 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: that time, the Chief Justice, John Roberts gave each side 327 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: a bit of a talking to. Let's listen to what 328 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: the Chief Justice had to say. I think it is 329 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: appropriate at this point for me to admonish both the 330 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: House Managers and the President's Council in equal terms, to 331 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: remember that they are addressing the world's greatest deliberative body. 332 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: One reason it has earned that title is because it's 333 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: members avoid speaking in a manner and using language that 334 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: is not conducive to civil discourse. Anna, what led the 335 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: Chief Justice to say that, Yeah, that was there's kind 336 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: of exchange between Sipolonium, Pat Sipoloni, the lead White House counsel, 337 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: and Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler, in which they had each 338 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: kind of accused each other of misrepresenting the truth, and 339 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: Nadler even went so far as to say that um, 340 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: Sipoloni had been sent there to lie to senators and um, 341 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: you know, they did get this reaction from the Chief Justice. 342 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: He kind of tried to make it a light moment 343 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: with some historical references to um, you know, turn of 344 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: the century profanity, but the turn of the century profanity 345 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: is probably something we could say on the radio here. Yeah, 346 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: what was it like petty petty pegging? Yeah, that was 347 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: that was a new one for me. Um. But you know, overall, 348 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: the the tenor was pretty respectful, you know, pretty you know, 349 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: just laying out their cases back and forth. You know, 350 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: that was a moment of tension. They'd been going for 351 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: eleven hours and um, people were really ready to be 352 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: done at that point. Did I just see that Gerald 353 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: Nadler made some sort of an apology or a pseudoble 354 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: It was, I mean, he kind of like recognized the 355 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: senators and the Chief Justices for being there so late 356 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: and said that he appreciated that. But it definitely wasn't 357 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: a moment he wasn't being very contrite. He was not 358 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: not a full fledged apology. Okay, let's let's turn a 359 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: little more to the substance. Democrats have the floor today, UH, 360 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: and they will for the next couple of days. What 361 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: what are they saying and what are they trying to 362 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: accomplish in their opening statements. Yeah, this is their first 363 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: state of three to use their twenty four hours to 364 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: present the Houses case. And this is really an important 365 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: moment for them because they have to use this to 366 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: talk not just to the senators in the room, but 367 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: also to folks back home who are watching this on TV, 368 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: you know, maybe tuning in to hear this evidence for 369 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: the first time. And you can tell that they've been 370 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: very prepared. They have prepared speeches, they have slides, they 371 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: have videos of witness testimony from the House hearings, and 372 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: have really done a methodical job of marching through the 373 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: allegations on the table, the President's actions regarding Ukraine, the 374 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 1: concern of his subordinates, and even introducing some new evidence 375 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: that um came out since the House impeached the president 376 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: on December eighteen. UH. An associate of Rudy Giuliani's love 377 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: partners turned over some documents to the House and one 378 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: of those UM was a letter from Rudy Giuliani to 379 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: the Acid end of Ukraine seeking a private meeting kind 380 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: of on behalf of the president. And that was reference 381 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: today in the by Zoe Lofgren, one of the appicient managers. UM. 382 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: So you know, they're they're going through kind of their 383 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: whole arsenal, taking their time to do it, and also 384 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: kind of making a historical appeal to senators to really, 385 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: um take this seriously and make sure that they are 386 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: kind of digesting the case before them. So so much 387 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: of this debate is over whether they're going to be 388 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: witnesses called. There were some reports this morning that some 389 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: Democratic senators were thinking about a possible deal where we 390 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: get to call John Bolton and maybe the other side 391 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 1: gets to call Hunter Biden. UM, what's going on with that? Yes, 392 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: so this initially was a Republican suggestion. UM no surprise 393 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: that Republicans would say, if the Democrats want to call witnesses, 394 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: Republicans should be able to call witnesses to Most Democrats 395 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: have said that Hunter Biden, for example, is not a 396 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: good witness because he can't speak to the president actions. 397 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: You know, yes, he was a member of this board 398 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: of the Ukrainian gas company Barisma, but that's not directly 399 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: relevant to the allegations facing the president. So there were 400 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: some Democrats yesterday who were like, yeah, maybe we could 401 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: consider it, but um Chuck Schumer, the Senate minority leader, 402 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: kind of shot that down today and said that that's 403 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,479 Speaker 1: not being considered. It doesn't mean it won't happen, because uh, 404 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: you know, things could develop. But you know, if if 405 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: Democrats want to hear from John Bolton and Acting Chief 406 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 1: of Staff McK mulvaney, they're going to have to give 407 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: something to Republicans in return, and that could be the 408 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: testimony of you know, if not Hunter Biden, maybe Joe Biden. 409 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: You know, I'm sure there would be some conversations with 410 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 1: him in his campaign on whether or not he would 411 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: actually be willing to do that. The people who are 412 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: in play in this, at least according to conventional wisdom, 413 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: are a handful of Republicans who maybe could vote to 414 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: uh call some witnesses and you know, in Democrats wildest dreams, 415 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: might vote to convict the president. Is there any uh 416 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: indication that that any of this has been influencing those 417 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: key Republican senators. It's been interesting to watch them on 418 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: the floor. And of course we're just getting notes from 419 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: our reporters in the room because there are no TV cameras. 420 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: It's just the Senate camera focused on the speakers, so 421 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: we're not getting any like c SPAN cameras on the 422 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: reactions of the senators. But the four five six Republicans 423 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: who have shown some openness to calling witnesses, you know, 424 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: Susan Collins of Maine facing tough reelection battle next year, 425 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 1: Lisa Marikowski of Alaska, also very independently minded UH Senator 426 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: A mid Romney of Utah. They've been taking very meticulous notes, 427 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: so it's been interesting to see kind of the moments 428 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: in which they look down at their notepad and say like, Okay, 429 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 1: this is something that I want to remember, something that 430 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: I want to jot down. UM. So you can tell 431 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: that they are engaged. Um, that's different than some of 432 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: their other Senate colleagues. UM. There's been a lot of 433 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 1: kind of going in and out of the chamber, you know, 434 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: maybe hanging out there. We're supposed to stay there they are, 435 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: and exactly there they are allowed to have milk or water. Um, 436 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: So most people are growing for water, although if you 437 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: have have chosen so drink milk, um, but um. There 438 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: you know, spending a lot of time in the you know, 439 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: the Republican cloak room in the Democratic cloak room, kind 440 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: of realizing that there probably won't be any consequences for 441 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: taking a break every once in a while, so, you 442 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: know it. It has been interesting to see who's the 443 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 1: most engaged with the process and who is kind of 444 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: writing it off or even in some cases falling asleep. 445 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: We just have about a minute left. How about outside 446 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: the Senate? What what indications are there about how all 447 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: this is playing in the rest of the country. Yeah, 448 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 1: it's hard to tell because you have the president's very 449 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 1: passionate supporters who are with him no matter what. You 450 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: have the president's very passionate opponents who really want this 451 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: man to be removed by from office by any means possible. 452 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: And you have a very small section of voters in 453 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: the middle that aren't decide I did yet, who haven't 454 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: made up their mind. And that's really kind of the 455 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: most important audience for this process because the House impeachment 456 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: managers have to convince them not only is the president 457 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: not fit for office, and if he is not removed 458 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: by the Senate, he should be voted out. But they 459 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: also have to defend the House process because all House 460 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: Democrats are going to be up for re election next 461 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: year and they want to demonstrate that they've done their 462 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: duty responsibly according to the Constitution. That was Anna Edgerton, 463 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: Congressional editor for Bloomberg News, Thanks for joining us here 464 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: on sound On. Anna. Coming up, we're going to talk 465 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: about the rest of Chief Justices John Roberts's day. He 466 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: heard arguments and the rest of the Supreme Court did 467 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: in an important religion case. Download the Bloomberg Sound Podcast 468 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 1: on iTunes at Bloomberg dot com or by playing the 469 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: downloading the Bloomberg Business app. You're listening to sound On. 470 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: I'm Greg Store. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg 471 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,479 Speaker 1: Sound On with Kevin Surley on Bloomberg and one oh 472 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: five point seven f m H Tube. I'm Greg's story 473 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: in for Kevin CURRELLI. Even with the impeachment trial going on, 474 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: Chief Justice John Roberts still had to do his day 475 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: job at the Supreme Court today, eight hours after impeachment 476 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: Day one ended Roberts was on the bench as the 477 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: court heard arguments in a Montana case that could make 478 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: it easier to funnel public money to religious schools. The 479 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: case is about a fifty dollar tax credit that people 480 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: could get for donating money to an organization that would 481 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: use the money to provide scholarships for people to attend 482 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: private schools. With me to talk about the case is 483 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: Michael Bindis. He's with the Institute for Justice, with which 484 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: represents three mothers who want to use scholarship money to 485 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: help send their children to a Christian school. And Daniel 486 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: Mack of the American Civil Liberties Union. He helped file 487 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: a Friend of the Court brief on the other side 488 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: of the case, saying the program should remain invalidated. Thanks 489 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: to both of you for for joining me here. You 490 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: were both in the courtroom today as was I. Um. Daniel, 491 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: let me start with you. This is a case where 492 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: I find it easy to get a little bit turned 493 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 1: around because of some procedure. But we'll try to simplify it. 494 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: Can you just tell us what the Montana Supreme Court 495 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: said in striking down the program. So the Montana Supreme Court, 496 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: looking to a provision of its state Constitution, a provision 497 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: that's similar to uh provisions and three quarters of the 498 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: states around the country that requires the state not to 499 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: fund directly or indirectly religious activity. So the Montana Supreme 500 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: Court said that this program they were concerned that it 501 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: would fun religious activities religious schooling, and as a result, 502 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: instead of just saying that the program could stand and 503 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: only fun non religious schooling, the state Supreme Court scrapped 504 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: the entire program. So after that decision, no one in 505 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: the state religious schools or non religious school can benefit 506 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: from this program. Okay, So, Michael, given that that that 507 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: is the case, the program at this moment does not exist. 508 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: One of the big questions that came up today from 509 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: the more liberal justices was how can it be that 510 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: this program discriminates on the basis of religion. Neither the 511 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: parents who want to send their kids through religious schools 512 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: nor the ones who want to send them to non 513 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: religious private schools get the money. What what's your answer 514 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: to that question? Right? The reason the program was struck 515 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: down is because of religion. Um parents have been denied 516 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: scholarships because of religion. They continue to be denied scholarships 517 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: because of religion, and the fact that the court, at 518 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: the end of the day, struck down the entire program. Uh. 519 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: And and therefore there was kind of collateral damage, you know, 520 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: other scholarship recipients who who no longer have access to 521 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: the program. Is beside the point that the reason that 522 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: the court struck down the program was because it included 523 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: religious options. In fact, the only reason the court struck 524 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: down the program and its entirety is be is the 525 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: definition of eligible schools included religious and non religious schools alike. 526 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: And it determined that, Hey, the legislature wanted all schools 527 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: to be able to participate, we don't think religious schools 528 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: can participate. Um. Therefore we've got no choice but to 529 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: strike down the program and its entirety. Um. It's clear 530 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: that it saw the inclusion of religious options as the 531 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: problem and that there was no federal constitutional problem in 532 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: barring religious options in the program. And we believe that 533 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: there is a big federal problem when you offer a 534 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: benefit and say you may use it, but you may 535 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: not use it to attend a religious school. Daniel. In 536 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: addition to what Mike Michael said, there's also the history 537 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,479 Speaker 1: of this provision in the Montana Constitution. UH. This amendment 538 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: is something that uh Michael hasn't used the phrase yet, 539 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: but people on inside of the case called a bleed amendment, uh, 540 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: something that was adopted back in the nineteenth century with 541 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: an anti Catholic bias in mind. Brett Kavanaugh uh called 542 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: it said that these these sorts of amendments are rooted 543 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: in grotesque religious bigotry against Catholics. Uh So what what's 544 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: the answer to both what what Michael had to say 545 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: there and and the history of this amendment? Well, the 546 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: history is an interesting question in this case. First of all, 547 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: even if you go back to the late nineteenth century, 548 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: it is far from clear that UM, the original provision 549 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: in the Montana Constitution was born of anti Catholic bigotry. 550 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: There were certainly anti Catholic bigotry throughout the country in 551 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: various UM pockets, but the evidence even back then for 552 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: Montana is sin at best. But more importantly, this is 553 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: a provision that was actually adopted in nineteen seventy two. UM, 554 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: So there's no reason to even send it back that far, 555 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: to look back that far, and in ninety two, there 556 00:31:54,760 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: is certainly no evidence whatsoever that this was adopted for UM. 557 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: Some anti Catholic reason, the clear intent at the time 558 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: in ninete in the seventies was to preserve funding for 559 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: public schools and to protect religious freedom by preventing government 560 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: influence on religious institutions. Michael, help help us understand the 561 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: implications of this case. One. One other issue that came 562 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: up in the courtroom, asked by both Stephen Bryer and 563 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: John Roberts, was about public schools. Um, if your side 564 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: wins this case, what if anything, doesn't mean for the 565 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: ability of state or local government to fund public schools 566 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: without having some sort of obligation to religious schools as well? 567 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: This case has nothing to do with the public schools. 568 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: No one has argued that um. Uh, that if the 569 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: state funds public schools, it must also fund private schools, 570 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: or that if the state funds public schools and their 571 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: secular it must also create some kind of religious public 572 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: school progvate program. Uh that that that's all a diversion 573 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: with this case. Asked is whether government, if it provides 574 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: a generally available benefit like a scholarship in this case, 575 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: whether it may bar religious options in that program. Uh. 576 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: It may not, And in fact, the U. S. Supreme 577 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: Court held two years ago that it may not. In 578 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: a case called Trinity Lutheran versus Comber, in which the 579 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: state of Missouri offered a playground resurfacing program. Grant provided 580 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: grants to schools and other nonprofits to resurface their playgrounds 581 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: with a rubberized material. Trinity Lutheran Church, which ran a preschool, 582 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: applied to participate in this program. Missouri said, Nope, can't 583 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: do it. The reason Missouri cited for denying the church 584 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: the ability to participate is the same type of state 585 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: constitutional provision relied on Montana in this case, and the U. S. 586 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: Supreme Court said, no, you may not single out and 587 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: exclude this church, this church round preschool simply because it's religious. 588 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: And even though you have the state constitutional provision that 589 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: says you may do that, that provision doesn't trump the 590 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: federal Constitution. The federal Constitution is supreme, and the federal 591 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:18,240 Speaker 1: Constitution prohibits government from barring the recipients of a benefit 592 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: based on their religious status. Daniel, I've forgotten whether the 593 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: A C l U file a brief in the in 594 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: the Missouri case. See case. I suspect you didn't. I 595 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: suspect you're on the losing side. You can correct me 596 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. But um, regardless, Um, doesn't that ruling 597 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: put you in a pretty bad spot right now? Is 598 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 1: there any difference between this program UH and the Missouri 599 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: program that that the Supreme Court set had to be 600 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: open to religious UH preschools. There's a huge difference between 601 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: the two cases. And in fact, Justice Kagan, who is 602 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: in the majority in the recent case, pointed out that 603 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: there's a big difference, and it is this. In the 604 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: more recent case, the Trinity Lutheran case, the Supreme Court 605 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: said that the government may not deny funds based solely 606 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: on a recipient's religious status. Okay, that's the key, UM, 607 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: And it expressly said, we are not addressing we a 608 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: court religious uses of funding. States can still restrict funding 609 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: of religious uses, as the Supreme Court said in a 610 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: seven to majority opinion a few years earlier, written by 611 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: a Chief Justice ran Quist, who was certainly no fan 612 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: of church state separation, that states may restrict funding of 613 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: religious uses. And here there's no question that Montana's tax 614 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: credit program would fund religious activities, trading, instruction, and indoctrination 615 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: on a daily basis. We're gonna have to leave it there. 616 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: That was Daniel Mack of the American Civil Liberties Union. 617 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: I want to thank him, and also Michael Bindeses of 618 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,919 Speaker 1: the Institute for Justice talking about the Supreme Court today 619 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: that could have a very big impact on religious rights 620 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: um and potential funding of religious schools. That's it for 621 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: sound On. Download the Bloomberg Sound On podcast on iTunes, 622 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com, or by downloading the Bloomberg Business App. 623 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Radio dot com, I 624 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, and Spotify. I'm Greg's store. You're listening to 625 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg