WEBVTT - Weirdhouse Cinema: Head 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.120 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:18.000 Hello, and welcome to Weird House Cinema. My name is 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:21.599 Joe McCormick. My regular co host, Robert Lamb is not 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.560 with me today, so I am being joined by a 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.159 guest someone who will be familiar to longtime listeners of 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:32.720 the show, our former producer and friend, Seth Nicholas Johnson. 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:33.640 How are you doing, Seth? 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:36.640 Hello? Everyone, I'm doing great. Happy to be back again, 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.640 and I'm glad to still be a part of the 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:41.600 you know, Stuff to Blow your Mind family. 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.320 Oh, it's really great to have you back, man. Yeah. 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.160 So the movie we're going to be talking about today 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.320 is a movie you suggested, Seth, one that I had 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:55.880 never seen before, and I am thrilled to discuss it 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.880 today because it is so strange and so interesting. Today's 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:04.360 film is the nineteen sixty eight psychedelic musical comedy Head, 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.760 starring the TV musical act The Monkeys, and people may 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:11.759 say they monkey around, but the important thing to understand 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:15.120 is that being a monkey is a pact with Satan, 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:19.800 cursing you to a dreadful existence of meaninglessness and unfreedom. 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:21.919 But also it's all for a laugh. 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.039 You know, they monkey around a lot in this movie. 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.759 Like if a reviewer simply wrote that after they saw 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:33.279 the film, you know these boys, they really monkey around, 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.280 they'd be correct. That is what's happening throughout the entire 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:38.040 eighty six minutes of this film. 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.400 But what's not true is that they're too busy singing 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:44.000 to put anybody down. This movie sort of does put 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:46.960 a lot of people in things down, including the monkeys 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.400 and the creators of the monkeys, true, and everything that 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:53.280 enabled the monkeys to happen, and the fans of the monkeys, 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:58.480 and war and consumerism and the broader culture and basically everything. 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:01.480 It's a shocking indictment of humankind. 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:03.160 It's very true. 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.919 So I first of all had no idea this movie 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:09.280 was going to have such dark threads running through it, 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:11.920 or that it would be as funny as it was. 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:16.280 But I previously actually didn't know much about the Monkeys. 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:18.640 I didn't like grow up watching the show or anything 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:20.480 I knew, you know, so the songs that would play 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.760 on the radio and stuff. So before we get into 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:28.040 discussing the film itself, Sethlake, what is your pre existing 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:31.600 relationship with the Monkeys and did that have anything to 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:33.720 do with you suggesting this movie for today. 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.320 Definitely, I grew up on the TV show. Well obviously 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.519 on the reruns. I wasn't around for the first round. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:45.280 But if folks don't know, around the mid to late eighties, 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:50.040 MTV started replaying old episodes of The Monkeys simp believe 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.680 it was like the thirtieth anniversary, twentieth anniversary, something like that, 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.440 And when that happened, yeah, I guess would have been 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:01.520 the twentieth anniversary sixties, seventies, eighties, correct anniversary on MTV. 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.320 They had a bunch of reunions and they played the 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.040 TV Show and there was like a second wave of 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:10.040 Monkey Mania, and this was kind of a big bolster, 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:12.280 not only to their record sales, some of their albums 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:14.760 like re entered the charts and stuff like that, but 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.840 in addition to that, they started doing reunion tours like 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:22.160 the Monkeys came back in the mid to late eighties, 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.720 and I guess I was influenced by that as a 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.280 as a small child, because I watched those reruns and 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:30.920 fell in love with it and just like the humor 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:33.799 and the silliness, and honestly also the quality of the 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:37.680 music really won me over as a child and it 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.120 stuck with me for a long time. And eventually, when 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:41.880 I did become old enough to start like you know, 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.480 buying my own albums and like caring about music, I 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.240 was like, you know, some of these Monkeys albums are great. 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:50.600 So then I went like through the effort of actually 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.520 like learning the history of them and when they took 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:55.640 over and started, you know, being in control of their 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:57.880 own music compared with when they just had a bunch 0:03:57.920 --> 0:03:59.600 of like you know, studio heads telling them what they 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:02.680 had to do, and what the difference between that sound was. Like, 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:06.000 I really did a deep dive and just to just 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.720 to you know, educate myself. And yeah, I would call 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:12.360 myself a big Monkeys fan. I have seen my personal 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:17.200 favorite Monkey, Mike Nesmyth, in concert multiple times, and you 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:19.960 know what, that's what I'll definitely say. I'm an enormous 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:22.640 Mike Nesmyth fan, and Mike Nesmyth used to be in 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:23.960 the Monkeys, That's what I'll say. 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:28.159 It is surprising when you go back and listen how 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.919 good a lot of these songs are, like well written 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:37.200 pop tunes. Yeah, And I honestly Seth thought you might 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.760 say that you're on Ramp to the Monkeys was the 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:44.960 smash Mouth cover in the Shrek soundtrack. I'm a believer. 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:47.760 I don't think I'm quite young enough for that. I'm 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.720 sure the generation below us would definitely say that. But 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.440 now I was brought on board with the reruns on 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.440 a MTV back in the late eighties. 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.560 Yeah, was that song. By the way, this would be 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.360 a good segue to the fact that actually a lot 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:07.239 of the great Monkeys tunes that we know were written 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:11.520 by people who would go on to become great, you know, musicians, 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.920 well known stars and songwriters in their own right. I 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.080 think I'm a believer who was written by Neil Diamond, 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:17.560 wasn't it. 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:20.440 I believe there is some truth to that. I can't 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.799 remember if it was originally intended to be a Neil 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:26.160 Diamond song originally, but yeah, there was a bunch of 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:28.479 that kind of like flip flopping back and forth back then. 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:30.880 But he was definitely involved, that's for sure. 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:34.400 Yeah, But other songs of the Monkeys were written by 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:38.200 like Carol King and collaborators. So, like, there are several 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.520 Carol King songs that pop up in this movie, and 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:43.240 they're fantastic. Probably one of the best songs in the movie. 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.640 The Porpoise song is a Carol King and I forget 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.640 the collaborator to his name will come up later. 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.960 Harry Nielsen too. They had some really good Harry Nielsen 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:57.040 collaborations in the future. And not to you know, harp 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.520 too much on my favorite monkey, Michael Nesmith. But Michael 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:04.120 Nesmyth definitely wrote all of the best Monkeys songs. Well, 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.679 we'll hear at least one in this movie, a Circle Sky. 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:11.040 But when you hear that that Texas twang out of 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.320 Mike Nesmyth's mouth, you know, you know it's a Nesmuth original. 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.000 And man, he writes a damn fine song. If folks 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.000 don't know he was, well, well, we'll get to this later. 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.479 But he was already a famous songwriter before he joined 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.480 the Monkeys, like, for example, he wrote Linda Ronstadt's Different Drum. 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.240 You know that song that's a Mesmith original? Yes, yeah, 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:32.080 uh yeah. 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:35.359 Okay, So we'll have to talk about the different elements 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:37.480 as we go along, But maybe before we go into 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:39.640 the history of the Monkeys and what the monkeys mean, 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.760 we should just give a brief description of what is head, 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:47.440 What is this movie? It is hard to describe, but 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:49.720 I think the way I would put it is that 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:54.640 it is a nonlinear mad cap comedy starring the mid 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:59.280 sixties made for TV band the Monkeys as themselves or 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:03.560 as the slightly fictionalized versions of themselves that were that 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.320 were the Monkeys, or actually you might say as like 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:11.080 a second order character, like a a second order fictionalized 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.360 version of the Monkeys that appears in this movie to 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:18.080 sort of comment on the characters that they played in 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:19.800 the show. Does that make any sense? 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.160 It absolutely does. And you know, I was just thinking 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.560 to myself, what other structures around this time were happening, 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:31.000 And here's something that I don't believe this can be 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.560 connected because the timelines are too similar. I think it 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:36.040 was probably just like the vibe going through the air was. 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:38.640 Did you ever used to watch Rowan and Martin's laugh. 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:41.360 In I think I've seen like one episode of it. 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:43.880 I had pointing out how old I am, But I 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.400 definitely used to watch reruns of Rowan and Martin's Laughing 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:50.240 back in the day, and it has that same highly gosh, 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.800 how to even put it, because there's a combination of psychedelia, 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:58.280 corny old jokes, rapid succession from like shot to shot, 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:02.760 very little from thing to thing, and that show came 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.400 out in nineteen sixty eight, the same year as this movie. 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:09.440 So okay, I'm not claiming that there's any connection there, 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:11.400 but I do think there must have been something in 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.600 the water that made people feel that this was like 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.080 where the pendulum was swinging, that this was the kind 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.160 of structure that was needed in the world. 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.400 Or something in the kool aid yea, the electric kool 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:28.040 aid exactly there, I think it would be. In fact, 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.000 I was going to say it would be hard to 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:34.280 deny the drug influences on this movie, but in fact 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:37.199 you couldn't. Even Like the creators have explicitly said this 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:42.240 movie was fueled by psychedelic drugs. Like Bob Rayfelson, who 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.160 will talk about in a bit, has given interviews extensively 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.400 talking about how much the use of drugs like marijuana 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.520 and LSD played into the creative process that led to 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.800 this film. I don't know how much for the monkeys themselves, 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.560 but for the writers and the director certainly this is 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:08.040 a very psychedelic forward comedy comedy film. But also so yeah, 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.960 you get that very like only loosely logically connected or 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:17.760 sometimes totally logically unconnected sequence of images and scenes. But 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:20.400 also I just wanted to run down like a list 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.840 of things that this movie does. What these these comedic 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:28.960 episodes in the movie do so, they satirize American media, 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:35.560 especially like movies and TV with traditional square storytelling genres 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:40.800 like westerns and war movies. But also they they satirize 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:45.800 American advertising and just the general landscape of the media, 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:49.800 news report reports and stuff like that. But also these 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:54.080 there are several points in the movie that quite viscerally 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:58.120 critique the morality of US involvement in the Vietnam War 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:03.199 with like truly shocking imagery. But then the movie also 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:08.160 experiments with psychedelic music and imagery styles. I think if 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:10.360 I was going to offer some critiques of this film, 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:12.679 one of them would be that I think they got 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:17.000 a little too excited about the solarization effect. I don't 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:19.280 know if that's quite as cool as they thought it was. 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.400 Right for sure, I felt the same thing. Eventually, it 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:25.319 was just a one throwoff moment, so I doubt we'll 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:27.599 be referencing it directly. There was a scene with a 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.800 bunch of mylar balloons floating around, and I think they 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:34.319 thought it would blow our minds, and I was like, nah, 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:36.760 we know what my lar balloons are. It's fine. 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.280 But then along with all that we get traditional song 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.240 and dance numbers. There's even like a Broadway show tune 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:47.319 kind of number in it. That's fantastic that there are 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:52.040 just like constant detours into corny non sequitor jokes. Like 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:57.920 the jokes are not all you know, like dark, incisive comedy. 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.960 A lot of it is just really the bottom of 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:06.160 the barrel kind of just the silliest puns and stuff. 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:10.559 And like you said too, the non sequitur nonsensical nature. 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:12.520 Some of the humor is some of my favorites too. 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:16.040 One of my favorites I'll mention later. It's early in 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:17.840 the movie, so I'll bring it up later. But a 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.120 lot of it is just good timing and good editing 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:24.560 with just like odd creative choices, especially captions. They use 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:28.079 a lot of odd text on screen captions and editing 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:29.959 choices that are fascinating. 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:34.400 Oh like when the guy says to Mickey Dolan's. 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:37.160 Yes, yes, that yeah, that happens early in the movie. 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.920 We'll mention that scene soon, but that that genuinely made 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:43.040 me laugh out loud. That's that we'll mention soon, Okay. 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.520 But another big thing this movie does is it meditates on, 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:53.200 I would say, from the movie's perspective, the genuinely quite terrifying, 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:59.000 implied psychic undercurrents of Beatlemania and monkey mania. The movie 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:05.320 almost suggest there is something like threatening and fascist about 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:10.240 the adulation of bands like this. And then also it 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:14.160 meditates on the meaninglessness of the Monkeys as a concept, 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:17.600 and on the meaninglessness of life, and on illusions of freedom. 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.160 But also it's funny. 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.160 It's very true. It's it's genuinely a funny film. And 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.760 it's amazing how they balance all of these pieces, that 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:32.600 it can be this dark, this unconnected, but also this 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.360 watchable and this funny. It's it's actually quite masterful in 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:37.720 many ways. Yeah. 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.960 So in otherwise though, I mean, it's it's a movie 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.400 clearly made in the sixties, and like the sixties are 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.160 just wafting through it. So it is very dated in 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.400 a lot of ways. But in other ways it stands 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:55.040 out as surprisingly fresh and good and even shockingly, as 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.800 I said earlier, sharp with its satire. Sometimes it's hard 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.040 for me to think of another movie be quite like this. Agreed, 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:38.439 Maybe we should hear some trailer audio. 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:23.839 Not since the Ten Commandments. 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:37.920 If you liked Covered Wagon Beyond from Here to Eternity. 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:43.200 They can't be the Marx Brothers. 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:50.320 They're too young. Columbia Pictures presents the Monkeys Mickey, Davey, 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:56.760 Mike Peter in Head. That's right, Head, what's it all about? 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:02.880 Only Victor Mature's hair dresser knows for sure. Head is 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:08.000 the most extraordinary adventure, western comedy, love story, this greed, drama, musical, documentary, 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:09.360 satire ever filmed. 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:24.560 All Right, So this is the part of the episode 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.680 we usually call connections where we talk about some people involved. 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:29.920 There were a lot of people involved in this movie. 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.720 It has a ton of cameos that we can't possibly 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.080 name them all, but we'll try to talk through some 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:37.880 of the main figures and then maybe we'll hit on 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:39.560 some other things as we go through the plot a 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.240 little bit. The plot quote, It doesn't have a plot, 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.440 but as we talk about what happens on screen. The 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.320 director and writer of this film as a guy named 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:53.080 Bob Rafelson who lived in nineteen thirty three through twenty 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:57.000 twenty two. He was an American director, writer, and producer. 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.479 Head was his first feature film, though he had previously 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.560 worked on TV as one of the creators of The 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:09.760 Monkeys TV series for NBC in nineteen sixty five sixty six. 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.040 I think maybe he created it in sixty five and 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.880 it debuted in sixty six, I believe. But he would 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.800 later go on to be best known as a director 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:22.920 of films like Five Ez Pieces in nineteen seventy, which 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.040 he directed and co wrote with Carol Eastman and which 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:30.160 starred Jack Nicholson and Karen Black. He also directed the 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.960 nineteen eighty one adaptation of The Postman Always Rings Twice. 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:37.120 This is a story that was made had multiple movie 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:40.840 versions over the years, this version starring again Jack Nicholson 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.400 and Jessica Long, and then he also did The King 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:48.160 of Marvin Gardens in nineteen seventy two. Stay Hungry in 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:51.720 nineteen seventy six, a film starring Jeff Bridges and Sally Field, 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:55.720 but also Arnold Schwarzenegger in a straight dramatic role. This 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:59.360 was I think his first movie after he appeared as 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.080 Arnold's strong in that Hercules film. 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.040 I've never seen that, and I'm actually kind of curious too. 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:07.359 That sounds pretty fascinating. 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:11.200 Yeah, yeah, it's like it's not an action movie at all. 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:15.320 Arnold Schwarzenegger plays like a guy who either owns or 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:20.720 manages a gym and a gym I think somewhere in Alabama. 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:25.160 And Jeff Bridges is like a shady real estate developer 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.520 who's trying to like scam him into selling the gem 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:30.160 property for some reason. 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.280 Fascinating And I bet this would have been technically the 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:35.720 first time his voice was on film, because wasn't he 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:37.560 dubbed in that Hercules movie? Oh? 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:39.840 I bet he was. Yeah, that's sounds familiar. Yeah. 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:40.280 Interesting. 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.960 Rafelson also directed Black Widow in eighty seven, which is 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.200 a sort of neo noir movie. I think that has 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:51.080 a Deborah Winger in it. Andy did the nineteen ninety 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.360 biographical film Mountains of the Moon, about the journeys of Richard, 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:58.680 Francis Burton and John Hanning. Speak Rafelson along with his 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:03.760 partner Bert Schneider. They also provided funding for the production 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.720 of Easy Rider in nineteen sixty nine, which was huge. 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.920 It's kind of hard to overstate the impact Easy Rider 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.080 on the film industry. It was hugely influential independent film 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:17.119 and a kind of frozen in time snapshot of the 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.760 feeling of an era, that era being the late sixties counterculture, 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.560 and together with another producer named Steve Blouner, Rafelson and 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:30.600 Schneider would found a company called BBS Productions, which from 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:33.960 what I understand, they entered into an agreement with Columbia 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:39.400 Pictures to finance films without allowing creative interference by the studios. 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:41.800 And I think this is seen by some as like 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:44.880 an important component in the evolution of the new Hollywood 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.400 of the nineteen seventies, which was more it was sort 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.919 of less focused on creative control by the studio and 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.520 more focused on creative control by the directors and filmmakers. 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:59.840 But before all that, Rafelson made The Monkeys. When I 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.199 as a kid and I was aware of, you know, 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.480 the Monkeys, that I knew their songs from the radio 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:08.000 and stuff, I actually did not realize that they were 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:12.880 a band created for television. And I don't know if 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:18.000 this qualifies them as a quote fictional band, because I 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.520 was talking about this with my wife Rachel. We watched 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:22.240 the movie together and we were talking about, like, what 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:24.159 does it mean for a band to be fictional? At 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.520 least what you can say about the Monkeys is they 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:31.400 are not a band that formed by musicians on their 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.399 own right. They were formed for a project that was 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:38.359 organized by someone else, and originally not all members of 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.000 the band played their instruments and wrote songs, though they 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:45.040 would kind of grow into different roles. But because of 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:48.840 that like growth and coming more into musicianship over time, 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.000 I guess you might say that they could in some 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.560 sense be considered a quote real band, whatever that means. 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:58.520 But at least at the beginning, Yeah, they did not 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:00.879 all write songs or play instruments the way I understand it, 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:02.560 and Seeth you can correct me if I'm wrong. I 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:06.680 think Mike Nesmith and Peter Tork played instruments, and Nesmith 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.320 alone had written songs, but the others were kind of 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:10.760 new to music in this way. 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:17.840 Kind Of one way that Mickey Dolans would often kind 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:20.560 of make an analogy for the situation was that they 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.320 hired Leonard Nimoy to play a vulcan, and eventually they 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:26.160 had to actually become a vulcan. That was their job. 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:32.520 And so let's see here, Davy Jones was a Broadway 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.399 guy like he was. He got really popular because he 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:38.480 was the artful dodger in Oliver that was like his 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:44.400 like claimed defect fits. Yeah, exactly, your salesman. Yeah, very 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.160 very like soft shoe. That's his thing, and that's kind 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.800 of the role that he kind of kept throughout the movie. 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:53.760 In fact, Zappa Frank Zappa makes a great cameo later 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.119 and makes reference to that in the film, which we'll 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.000 we'll get there. But so, yeah, that was his background. 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.720 He could he could do like Broadway type singing, but 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:03.800 he wasn't really a musician. And when you see him 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.240 on the Monkeys, he's usually playing like the tambourine or 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:08.399 the moroccas or something like that. But he's sort of 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:12.880 the lead singer exactly, although technically, if you go by 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:17.040 the numbers, Mickey Dolan's sang more than anyone. But but anyway, anyway, anyway, 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.200 so then we had Mike Nesmith, who was the full 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.280 blown real musician. He was making a living as a musician, 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.960 that was his job. And then Peter Tork definitely hung 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:31.560 out with hippies. In fact, the only reason he came 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.880 to the Monkeys was that his friend Stephen Stills had 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:40.360 auditioned been rejected, and then Stephen Stills said to Peter Tork, hey, man, 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.320 I think you're actually what they're looking for you should 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:44.800 go you should go check this out. And that's how 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:45.520 that happened. 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:48.240 I heard that. Yeah, the way I heard it put 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:50.879 was that he was like a younger, cuter version of 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:51.639 Stephen Still. 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:55.840 Yes, exactly. He's like, they weren't into this, but you might, 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:59.720 you might get it. Go ahead, Yeah, And then yes, 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:02.919 mick Key Dolan's was a child actor. So he was 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.520 the star of a television show called Circus Boy, I believe, 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:10.040 and so he was already like deep inside like the 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:15.320 Hollywood scene, and he had some experience I believe playing guitar, 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.320 but nothing else. And then as a default, when the 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.639 band kind of got together, they were like, someone has 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:22.920 to sit behind the drums. Mickey, that's you. And he's like, 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:24.199 I don't know how to play the drums. He's like, well, 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:26.000 you don't know how to play anything, You'll figure it out. 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.399 So Mickey by default had to learn how to be 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:34.080 the drummer. Okay, yeah, so yeah, yeah, they all had 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:37.680 some experience, but Nesmuth was the only real musician there. 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:39.120 But so they were. 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:44.399 The Monkeys were created by Rafelson and Schneider to pitch 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:47.240 as a show for NBC that would be like a 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:52.359 sitcom about a struggling folk rock band in California. But 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:55.679 it was, from what I understand, very much based on 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:58.800 Beatlemania and the success of the Beatles, maybe the Beatles 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:00.240 movies at that point. 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:02.240 Right, Yeah, let's go. Let's go a little bit into 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:05.280 the history here. And in fact, when he first pitched 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:09.240 this series, Rafelson, he pitched with the band The Love 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:12.320 and Spoonful. He said, this will be the band that 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.600 we will focus on, and that fell apart for who 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:19.320 knows how many reasons, and rumor has it? Who knows, 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:22.600 you know, I mean, what's the saying there are many 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:25.439 fathers to a creative idea or something like that, you know, 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:26.800 whatever that phrase. 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:29.640 Is, success has a million fathers or something. 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:33.800 Something like that. Who knows the absolute truth behind all 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.600 of this. But Rafelson said that he did have the 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:41.400 idea for the Monkeys actually long before Beatlemania, but then 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:45.880 he had the clout to start pitching at it around 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:50.080 after the Beatles nineteen sixty four film A Hard Day's 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:53.560 Night hit the theaters and was a big success. It's 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:55.920 a very simple film. It basically just shows the Beatles 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:58.320 preparing for a concert and then they have some wacky 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:01.160 adventures along the way to their oncerts, with many little 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:05.800 musical interludes peppered throughout, but probably because it happened in 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:08.520 the height of Beatlemania, and also because it actually is 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:12.000 a genuinely good movie. Have you ever seen Hard Day's 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:12.760 Night before, Joe? 0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:16.080 No. Strangely enough, the only one of the Beatles films 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:20.480 I've seen is Yellow Submarine, so I haven't seen. Yeah, 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:22.520