1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Let's venture into the old vault. That's right. This episode 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: originally published three nineteen titled m I B or n 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: ib so uh Men in Black or Nativity in Black, 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: basically getting into the the idea of, you know, if 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 1: one encounters some sort of out of the ordinary experience, 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,959 Speaker 1: like what kind of what kind of script, what kind 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: of text, what kind of cultural understanding are you're going 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: to apply to it? Like is it one of of 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: demon possession or is it one of aliens? And how 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: are these different concepts connected? Right? If you have a 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: paranormal experience, what type of template can you can you 14 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: lay over top it? Yeah, So it's a fun little discussion. 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: So if you're in the mood for men in Black 16 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: and perhaps the devil uh, then this is the episode 17 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: for you. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from 18 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, you welcome to Stuff 19 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 20 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. You know, we've covered a lot of 21 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: UFO beliefs on the show over the years to talk 22 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: about alien abduction experiences, strange lights in the sky, ancient aliens, speculation, 23 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: and we've covered it all with our usual level of 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: skeptical enthusiasm. I would say, not coming at it in 25 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: order to prove all the stories true and believe, but 26 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: also appreciating that fantastical beliefs and experiences and even delusions 27 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: are interesting phenomena that are worth studying and paying attention to. Yeah, 28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: why are people reporting these stories? What? What is actually 29 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: occurring that might be interpreted as such? And and then 30 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: why do we tell the stories that we tell? Like, 31 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: all these questions are sort of bound up in the 32 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: same riddle. But to read fresh, this is the basic 33 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: truth of the matter. Humans have always seen things they 34 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: couldn't explain, and some of these things were actual phenomena, 35 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: such as shooting stars or unusual weather effects. Other times 36 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: these were hallucinations, which can occur can occur for a 37 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: variety of reasons, only some of which entail the ingestion 38 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: of psychedelics or symptoms of mental illness, And in either case, 39 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: things seen became become things remembered, and memory is a 40 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: tricky thing all in its own, highly susceptible, to error, 41 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: to manipulation and change due to personal desires, interpretations, cultural priming, 42 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,119 Speaker 1: and a host of other factors. Yeah, that's exactly right. 43 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: And one of the things that I often think about 44 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: doesn't get enough attention when when people discuss fantastical experiences 45 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: like say, you know, UFO abduction experiences and sightings and 46 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: things like that, is is all of these in between 47 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: categories that cre eight memory experiences for people or create, 48 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: you know, at least in some way or another, lead 49 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: a person to relate and experience that are not exactly 50 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: one of three clear options. The three clear options usually 51 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: presented are somebody actually physically had this UFO abduction experience, 52 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: they really were taken up, or they're lying and they're 53 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: just making up a story they know to be false. 54 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: Or they hallucinated it like they had a vision where 55 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: they imagine that they've really believed all this stuff was 56 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: happening to them at the time and that you know, 57 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: and then they remember that hallucination as if it was 58 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: a real physical event. I think those are actually not 59 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: the only three options. They usually treated as like the 60 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: main three things that could have happened. I think what 61 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: gets underappreciated or these sort of like weird middle categories 62 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: where you know where like imagination and fancy and retelling 63 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: and embellishment and all these different kinds of things sort 64 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: of in act in a stew within the mind. And 65 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: there's so many ways this can happen. One piece of 66 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: research that I always just think it's such an interesting 67 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: little example of demonstrating how contagious imagery and ideation can 68 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: be between one brain subsystem and another is a two 69 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: thousand six study called do you Remember proposing marriage to 70 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: the Pepsi machine? False recollection? False Recollections from a campus walk, 71 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: And this was in the Psychonomic Bulletin and Review two 72 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: thousand and six by by Semen, Philbin, and Harrison. And 73 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: basically the gist here is that students were asked to perform, 74 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: and too so somewhere asked to perform, and somewhere asked 75 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: to merely imagine themselves performing or imagine seeing somebody perform 76 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: activities both normal like checking a pepsi machine for change 77 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: or lying down on a couch to relax, and also 78 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: actions that were bizarre, like proposing marriage to a pepsi 79 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: machine or lying down on a couch to have a 80 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: chat with Sigmund Freud, and it turned out in this 81 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: study at least that even just imagining performing these activities 82 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: caused many subjects to later recall having actually performed them. 83 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: Of course, this doesn't always happen, like sometimes you remember 84 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: the difference, but sometimes you don't remember the difference. Sometimes 85 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: the contents of our mind's eye are contagious in a 86 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: way that can spread into memory. Things that we think 87 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: about happening can in some cases become things that we 88 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: believe happened. And this is possible in people who have 89 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,239 Speaker 1: not been diagnosed with any conditions that cause psychosis or hallucinations. 90 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: It's just one of the many interesting ways that you 91 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: can see uh memories being meddled with in in this 92 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: kind of contagious way within the brain. And of course 93 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: we do outright invent things, sometimes inful things. We have 94 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: had terrifying visions, and certainly there are hoaxes in the world. 95 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: But still even with hoaxes, there's there's still this element 96 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: of the human imagination that ultimately helped the dream of 97 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: every god, demon, fairy and an extraterrestrial that we've ever considered. 98 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: And once these things are created, they're essentially available as 99 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: food for our meaning hungry minds. And so the version 100 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: of all of this that emerged in the post War 101 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: War two period and continues on to this day, though 102 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: with decreased energy, is that of the alien UFO, the 103 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: unidentified flying object, the the the alien visitation. And Uh, 104 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: today we're zeroing in on one particular aspect of Ufo 105 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: folk belief, one with some insightful connections potentially to older 106 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: religious ideas. We're gonna be talking about m I B. 107 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: Men in Black? Should I sing the song from the 108 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: movie now? I don't think we should do that. I 109 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: don't want to get night cheese done. He's right, Uh, 110 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: so clear where the Men in Black franchise, I don't 111 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: even aggressively pursues. I p that is a big chise. 112 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: And we're still going strong. There's the first one came 113 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: out seven, but yeah, there's there's a new one coming 114 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: out like in the next year. I don't think I 115 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: ever saw past the first one. I think I too 116 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: have only seen the first one. Uh that they maybe 117 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: the other ones may be great, I don't know, but 118 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: we're not really talking about those movies today. However, those 119 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: movies are based on it believe they were based on 120 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: a comic book. But but the whole franchise is based 121 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: on this concept of men in Black. Uh, the end 122 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: result doesn't really do the original idea justice in my opinion. Um, 123 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: even though many of us me included, well, you know, 124 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: we learned about men in Black for the first time 125 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: through watching this nine seven sci fi action comedy. You know, 126 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: I can't be positive, but I know I watched a 127 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: lot of terrible like BS fringe documentaries when I was 128 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: a kid, you know, all the stuff about how I 129 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: think I've said this on the show before. When I 130 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: was in like second or third grade, I was big 131 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: into like lock S, Monster UFOs. I was convinced all 132 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: that was real, and I think I I had watched 133 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: like I don't know what it was and whatever masqueraded 134 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: as like educational programming on television that was just like 135 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: propaganda for conspiracy theories and beliefs about the paranormal. Oh, 136 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: I too was very confused by episodes of specifically in 137 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: Search Off hosted by Leonard Nimoi and Unsolved Mysteries hosted 138 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: by Robert Stack. However, I don't I don't remember. There 139 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: may have been episodes of Unsolved Mysteries that involvement in Black, 140 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: But if there were, I don't remember seeing well, I 141 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I saw something at some point that 142 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: made me aware of the concept. But even if I 143 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: wasn't aware, then yeah, definitely the movie came along. I 144 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: think maybe I don't know if it was before or 145 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: after the Men in Black movie. There was the episode 146 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: of The X Files Jose Chunks from Outer Space, which 147 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 1: is one of the best episodes of all time. It 148 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: still holds up today. It's so good, it's so funny, 149 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: and it has classic Men in Black cameos in It 150 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: isn't the idea here that the Men in Black take 151 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: on the guys of famous individuals, of celebrities so that 152 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: you can't report it to the police without sounding ridiculous, 153 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 1: Which is funny because in in the episode you can 154 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: tell they kind of did their research. This sort of 155 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,479 Speaker 1: mirrors real things that people reported about Men in Black experiences. 156 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: Sometimes people said that the experience would be, you know, 157 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: ridiculous or absurd, as in the implication is, oh, it's 158 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: because they wanted to keep everything hush hush, and so 159 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: they knew if they acted absurd, I wouldn't be able 160 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: to tell people without them laughing at me. Now, some 161 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: of you out there, you might have heard about Men 162 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: in Black through at least a couple of different films 163 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: that came out. One came out in nine same year 164 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: as Men in Black, titled The Shadow Men, and I 165 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: have not seen this yet, but I saw the trailer. 166 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: It looks fabulous in a n way, featuring Eric Roberts, 167 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: Dean Stockwell, and Andrew Pine, and uh, it's four of us. 168 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: Seems to be more of a traditional Men in Black 169 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: movie with with these like weird, tall suited individuals with 170 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: dark glasses that are messing with their protagonists trying to 171 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: keep them from sharing some sort of information with the 172 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: world about UFOs, and then upon closer inspection they don't 173 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: seem to be quite human. And then there's a there's 174 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: a much earlier actually men in Black plot line in 175 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: a movie from nineteen eight titled titled Hangar eighteen. But 176 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: certainly by the time that The Men in Black came out, 177 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 1: by the time you know the X Files, that had 178 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: ample opportunity, uh to uh to educate everyone about the idea. 179 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: We saw all sorts of other echoes in various bits 180 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: of media. For instance, the thin men in the x 181 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: Calm Games are classic men in black characters like uh, 182 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: thin thin guys in suits with weird um facial features 183 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: that are not quite human. Uh. They're a doctor who 184 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: I believe has a species called the Silence that show up. 185 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: They are very men in black esque, and even a 186 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: couple of ultimately you know, rather different bits of cinema. 187 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: But the the agents from the Matrix are essentially men 188 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: in black. The Strangers of Dark City are in many 189 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: ways men in black. That's interesting. I hadn't thought about 190 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: that with the with the strangers, I definitely see it 191 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: with the agents. Um. Well, before we get into the particulars, 192 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: let's just try to sketch out the broad kind of 193 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: version of the men in black folklore. What what would 194 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: you say is the broadest possible interpretation of it. It's 195 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: that most commonly somebody becomes in some way involved with 196 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: UFO lore. They either have a UFO experience, they see 197 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: a UFO, or they have an abduction experience, or they 198 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: begin researching UFO phenomena. That's right, and then suddenly men 199 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: wearing black show up, weird possibly government law enforcement types 200 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: who are who suddenly show up in want to suppress 201 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: you want to silence you, either after you have shared 202 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: your claim of of UFO sightings or what have you, 203 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: or in many cases before you share it. Yeah, so 204 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: they tend to often be fond of like blacks, large 205 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: black sedans, cadillacs. They come and they approach you, the 206 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: person who is interested in UFOs for some reason or 207 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: doing UFO research or how do UFO experience. They tell 208 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: you either you didn't see what you think you saw, 209 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: or they tell you to stop researching, or they tell 210 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: you to stop spreading the word about UFOs, or occasionally, 211 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: in some reports it's exactly the opposite. Sometimes people in 212 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,599 Speaker 1: black suits, men in black suits or black hats or 213 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: whatever show up to say, actually keep going and keep digging. 214 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: There's more to see, there's more to learn. Yeah. They 215 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: take on more of like a like a deep throat 216 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: persona and stories and throw in their lots of variegated weirdness, 217 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, just sort of like strange flourishes on the story. Right, 218 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: So let's put all this in context. I start talking 219 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: about the time frame here because I think the more 220 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: we talk about it, the more obvious it becomes. Like 221 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: where these elements, like even the deep throat element, the 222 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: element of like like government corruption, UH, spies and espionage 223 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: and what have you where it all comes from. So 224 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: reading around about this, it seems like the sort of 225 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 1: the patient zero for all of this was a man 226 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: by the name of Harold Doll when all of this 227 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: took place. So claims were made by Fred Krisman and 228 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: Harold All about threats by men in Black following sightings 229 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: of UFOs and the skies over Mari Island in the 230 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: Puget Sound. And this was related in Gray Barker's book 231 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: that they knew too much about flying saucers, which this 232 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: book helped popularize stories of men in Black. Um, you know, 233 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: a lot of this is like you know, this is 234 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: the people who are into UFOs, like this is these 235 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: are the texts they were reading and sharing and and 236 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: then um basing some of their experiences on. So another 237 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,359 Speaker 1: brief thing about timeline is while various forms of paranormal 238 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: abduction experiences seemed to go way back in time, the 239 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: UFO thing really seemed to pick up around and after 240 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: World War Two. And you can offer all kinds of 241 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: reasons for this. I mean, some would have to do with, 242 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: like say, alleged sightings of UFO by Allied you know, 243 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: pilots and Air Air Force personnel during the war. Um. 244 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: But other things might be might have to do with 245 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: certain trends in science fiction movies and things like that. 246 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: Now in another case, and this one was related by 247 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: Peter M. Roycewitz who wrote a really important paper that 248 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: we're going to come back to because I don't want 249 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: to spoil what we're talking about bye bye by saying 250 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: the title just yet. We will come back to it. 251 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: I mentioned in nineteen two in Connecticut, you had this 252 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: guy by the name of Albert K. Binder. So Binder 253 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: lived with his stepfather in the top floor of a 254 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: house described by a local newspaper as a quote chamber 255 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: of horrors. But I mean this seems like yeah, but 256 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: basically they just had bunch of Halloween decorations up in 257 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: his room. That sounds fun. Yeah, I mean that's like 258 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: my room growing up. So you know, nobody ever said 259 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: it was a chamber of hars anyway. Uh Vender was 260 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: a big sci fi fan, and he wrote a letter 261 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: to a friend state quote stating that he had learned 262 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: the origin and ultimate goal of extraterrestrial visitation on the 263 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: Earth unquote, but then he claims that what happened is 264 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: suddenly Men in Black came up and they confronted him 265 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: telepathically with the intercept about the intercepted letter, and then 266 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: forced him to shut down his various UFO interest projects, 267 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: I mean at least for a while, because he later 268 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: writes a book about all of it and claims that 269 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: the Men in Black were from another planet, among a 270 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: whole host of other wild claims. Was this the one 271 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: about going to Antarctica? I believe? And yeah, yeah, so 272 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: it's it's wild in a way that like, like you 273 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: kind of want to tell him, like stop, you stop there, 274 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: because you had like a compelling story, just the right 275 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: number of fantastic elements, but then you just you kept 276 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: going with it. Uh So. Royce at See points out 277 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: that the Men in Black stories they really flourished for 278 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: a very brief time in between nineteen sixty six and 279 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven, with multiple UFO researchers claiming that they 280 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: had m IB encounters. They either encountered them alone or impairs, 281 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: though mostly in threes, and they claim that these individuals, 282 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: you know, they showed up and they know way too 283 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: much about them. They know about you know, what their 284 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: UFO experience might have been, what the details are, and 285 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: and no, you know, and they know about it before 286 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: you you even had a chance to go and tell 287 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: other people about it. And a lot of these tales 288 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: seemed to be inspired or colored by Cold War espionage fiction. 289 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: Uh you know, they often claimed the men in black 290 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: often claim to be military intelligence offers officers, or so 291 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: the stories go, well, yeah, with the you know, sixty 292 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: six sixty seven, it's hard not to miss the timing 293 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: with like the James Bond franchise there and all that 294 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Yeah, and just the idea of like 295 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: shadowy government figures, you know, at large. So interestingly enough, 296 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: during the height of all of this, according to m 297 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: royce Witz, a confidential correspondence from the Pentagon went out 298 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: to intelligence the command centers, telling them to notify the 299 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: Office of Special Investigations if anyone pretending to be a 300 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: military officer attempted to strong arm UFO witnesses, which which 301 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: is interesting because I guess it's the The idea here 302 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: is that if enough people were claiming it, they probably said, look, 303 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: be alert, just in case there's anybody going around pretending 304 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: to be law enforcement or a federal law enforcement uh, 305 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: and messing with UFO people. I think the most common 306 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: allegation was that that they were somehow associated with the 307 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: Air Force, right, because they're the Air Force, they should know, right. Yeah, Well, 308 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: I think back then the Air Force might have had 309 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,239 Speaker 1: a stranger, more futuristic connotation than it does today. Now 310 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: the Air Force just seems like a more mundane branch 311 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: of the armed services. That's a good point. I hadn't 312 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: thought about that now. There's also there's a lot of 313 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 1: stuff in them in Men in Black Lore that doesn't 314 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: necessarily or in many cases thankfully does not survive into 315 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: our science fiction. For instance, Roy Switz points out that 316 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: there's this whole anti Semitic strain of Men in Black 317 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: lore from that time period that entailed to just a 318 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: bunch of anti Semitic nonsense, which isn't surprised, and given 319 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: the long history of blood libel and conspiracy theories about 320 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: the Jewish people, and and how easily modern conspiracy theories 321 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: fall back into this same down the same well as 322 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: as well. Um, and if you if you want to 323 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: see this for yourself, just spend fifteen minutes on the internet, 324 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: Like you just go go to YouTube and start looking 325 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 1: around conspiracy theories and see how long it takes you 326 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: to hit something just overtly anti semitic. Unfortunately, the conspiracy 327 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: theory spaces uh often just run through with this stuff, right, 328 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: and then it goes beyond um anti semitism. There's also 329 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: a trend to describe men and black agents as Asian 330 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: or ethnically ambiguous in some way, shape or form generally 331 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: embodies a kind of like like white American chauvinism. Uh 332 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: and and just general idea. I mean it almost just 333 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: suggests that what could you do to make somebody weirder 334 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 1: while you just generally make them not a white American? Right? 335 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: So royce Witz shares a two account by one Michael Elliott, 336 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: and I'm just going to read a passage from it here. Quote. 337 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: He had a dark complexion, but not Oriental or Indian, 338 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: but dark. He had black hair with something of the 339 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: greasy looks, something looking somewhat punk by today's standards. He 340 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: was very thin, with a chiseled nose and chin, and 341 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: had and it had sunken eyes. The man wore a 342 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 1: black suit that needed ironing and possibly cleaning. He had 343 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: on a white shirt and a black Texan like string tie. 344 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,479 Speaker 1: Later when he rose to leave, I remember noting that 345 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: the suit was much too large for him, despite his 346 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: being over six ft as I estimated it. So there's 347 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: a lot to unpack their like just so much of 348 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: the like the racial other so many like just just 349 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: racist ideas about like uncleanliness and and so forth. But 350 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: also though something the strange and kind of different there 351 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: is that I feel like later on the men in 352 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: black phenomena came to be much more associated with like 353 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: the black suits, meaning a kind of government associated authority 354 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: and power. I think about like the cigarette smoking man 355 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: in Um in the X Files, and as opposed to 356 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: the kind of like weird Rumple, like the suit needed 357 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: cleaning and it was too big for him, that that 358 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it really fits with the what would 359 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: end up as the later standard idea of men in black. Yeah, 360 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: because certainly by the time you get to you know, 361 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: the more X Files version of it, and these these 362 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: variations that you see in the Matrix, for instance, it's 363 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: very much an idea of men in black as a 364 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: like the symbols and or at least foot soldiers of 365 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: top down government conspiracy anonymous, faceless authorities that they sort 366 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: of like represent anonymized power. And yet in these earlier 367 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: stories there were also some other additional weird factors. We 368 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,239 Speaker 1: already mentioned that the Air Force Association. But then there 369 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: are these additional dimensions to the lore in which say, 370 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: for instance, they have exaggerated characteristics that are almost comical, 371 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: and they walk with a crazy gait, almost drunken lye uh. 372 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: There's one account that Royce Woods shared whether it's you know, 373 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: just talking about them just walking like in a weird way, 374 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: with like as if their hips were swivel joints gliding 375 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: and rocking effect. I mean, one gets the image of 376 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: the Ministry of Funny walks in your head when you 377 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: when you read these, uh these stories. But he stresses that, 378 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, one has to to again consider this from 379 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: the vantage point of both tradition and experience. So tradition 380 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: bears keep the lore of something like Men in Black 381 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: alive through everything from weird fiction and movies to oral 382 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: accounts and uh, you know like ufology publications, um, and 383 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: even though they haven't necessarily experienced and them experienced it themselves. 384 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: And then you have passive tradition bearers who know about 385 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: it but don't actually pass it along. And then there 386 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: are those who claim to have definite experiences with men 387 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: in black and they tell their stories, which of course 388 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: may may vary wildly. So it's it's I think it's 389 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 1: a great way to look at something like this and 390 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: the interplay between these different categories interpretation of paranormal experience 391 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: via established lore and then accounts giving selective credence to 392 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: that lore and inspiring new details as well, but again 393 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: very selectively. So you know, it's like someone's saying, oh, 394 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: you know, I read this story there are men in 395 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: black going around and they're they're suppressing the truth about 396 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: aliens visiting our world. And then someone's like, yeah, I 397 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: had this this really weird thing that happened the other 398 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: day where these people in black suits showed up and 399 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,479 Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, yeah, this is line up. And then 400 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: they took me to add Arctica and then they and 401 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: then we were in end and Arctica I meant Jesus, 402 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: and you know, like and then they'll say, well, okay, 403 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: well it's still the basic principle lines up and that 404 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: supports my my story, right, They like, you can discard 405 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: the stuff about Antarctica, but still say, well, like, well, 406 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 1: meeting men in black suits is not implausible exactly. Alright, Well, 407 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: I think on that note, we're going to take a break, 408 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we're gonna get into the 409 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: more of the meat of the episode. We're going to 410 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: get into the reason that we chose the title for 411 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: today's episode. Uh M I B or n I B 412 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: M men in Black or Nativity and Black. All Right, 413 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: we're back now, Robert. It seems correct me if I'm wrong, 414 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,199 Speaker 1: that you were inspired to want to talk about this 415 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: topic today because of this paper. It's an older paper, 416 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: it seems to be sort of a classic in the 417 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: uphology uh area. It was published in the Journal of 418 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: American Folklore in nineteen eight seven by Peter M. Roycewitz 419 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: about the men in Black tradition. Is Is this what 420 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: got you into the subject? Yeah, I've never really looked 421 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: into men and black before, aside from you know, seeing 422 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: some of these films that we've discussed, like as a 423 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: fulclore tradition, as a folklore tradition, I haven't really read 424 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: anything about it, and then ran across this paper. Yeah, 425 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: the men in black experience in tradition analogs with the 426 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: traditional devil hypothesis. So obviously I'm instantly captivated. Um And 427 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: in case you didn't pick up on it, the title 428 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: of this episode the n ib Nativity and Black. That 429 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: is the Black Sabbath Song, one of the grades. So 430 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: in this paper he suggests that there's a lot of 431 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: room to compare the men in black figure with that 432 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: of the Christian devil. Okay, we can take a look 433 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: at this. Specifically, he points to the tradition of the 434 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: devil as this kind of a comic trickster in the 435 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: eleventh through nineteen centuries, a shadow figure that serves as 436 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: a kind of counterpoint to that of a saint. And 437 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: I also have to add he didn't really get into this, 438 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: but it made me think back to our discussions in 439 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: the past about witchcraft theorists and suck cubi and incubie. 440 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: The idea here was that while demons could take on 441 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: alluring forms to tempt sinners to greater sin, their guys 442 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: could not be complete, because otherwise it wouldn't be fair 443 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: to the faithful. You needed there to be a tell. 444 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: So you might have a dude who's being seduced by 445 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: a demonic succubus. But unfortunately, while she mostly looks like 446 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: a beautiful woman, she's got i don't know, like bare 447 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: hands or something right or duck feet is specifically one 448 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: that shows up in some of these old woodcuts. Like like, 449 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: if you're if you're a sinner, you're probably gonna either 450 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: not look at the feet, or you're gonna see the 451 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: feet and pretin you didn't see them and go on 452 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: with your sinning. But if you're faithful, then at the 453 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: very least you'll notice that there's some demonic pantages going 454 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: on here, and then you should really cut and run. 455 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: You'll be more observant exactly. So I'm reminded of that. 456 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: It feels like there's a certain like level of that 457 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: with the uncanny um behavior and appearance that is often 458 00:25:55,280 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: described in these um Also going back to the author 459 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: Walter Stevens take on witchcraft persecution that we've talked about 460 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: in the past, his idea was that it was in 461 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: large part an effort to prop up failing faith in 462 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: the supernatural during the early modern period. That's interesting, Yeah, 463 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: we so we've talked about this on the show before, 464 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: but the idea that people often have wrong is that 465 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: they believe that like witchcraft, persecution piqued in the Middle Ages, 466 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: and like the you know, the medieval period. But that's 467 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: not true, which during an age of of reason, of 468 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: everything seemed to be on the uptick. Yeah, and that's 469 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: when it really came about. And so what the idea 470 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: here is that if people start having threats to the 471 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: idea of their theology, of their religious beliefs, they'll counter 472 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: those threats with attempts to prove it. And if you 473 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: could prove that demons are real, then you can prove 474 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: that God is real. That's right. Heaven, you know, it 475 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: tends to be a little stingy and dishing out proof 476 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: of its existence. But if Hell can provide us with 477 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: physical proof and or and specifically carnal experience ants by 478 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: which to prove its reality, then that, by extension, proves 479 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: the reality of Heaven and really had the reality of God. 480 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: Now we don't know if Steven's interpretation here is correct, 481 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: but I do think that's a really interesting way of 482 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: reading that historical fact. Right, Yeah, I think you know, 483 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: and I think he would probably agree that you have 484 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: all these other factors involved as well. Certainly, um an 485 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: age of of of misogyny as well. But but but 486 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: I do wonder about all of that in relation to 487 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: Men in Black and UFOs because if there is any 488 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: doubt to the reality of UFOs and alien abductions in 489 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: your mind and you would prefer to believe, if you, 490 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: like the poster, want to believe, then if you have 491 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 1: strange men showing up and pressuring you to be silent, 492 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: well then that's even more evidence, right, that there's something here, 493 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: there's some truth, because otherwise no one would care if 494 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: you shared the truth with the world, right. Yeah, the 495 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,239 Speaker 1: devils wouldn't be seducing all these people if there if 496 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: there weren't a god to fight against exactly. Yeah. So 497 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 1: again Royce was to really get into that idea, but 498 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: it's kind of my own ponderings. Now. He did bring 499 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: up the idea of tulpas into Betan mysticism. So this 500 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: is the notion that intense thought can materialize a form 501 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: a thought being. And in this men in Black they're 502 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: they're kind of a tulpa of fear and anxiety surrounding 503 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: Big Brother Tulpas or an interesting subject that we can 504 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: maybe return to. In fact, the listeners in the past 505 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: have asked us to do episodes on tulpas. Yeah, we 506 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: probably should. Then it would be a lot of fun. 507 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: Maybe we get to read with an excerpt from from 508 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: a Boges short story. Well, I do think there's something 509 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: interesting to talk about with the idea of tupas as 510 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: materialized thought forms sort of like you know, imagination manifested 511 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: as reality when it comes especially to like virtual worlds 512 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: and technology. You know, one of the things that the 513 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: technology philosopher, I don't know if he'd call himself that, 514 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: but i'd call him that Jared Lannier used to talk 515 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: about with like the possibilities afforded to us by things 516 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: like virtual reality, is the idea to not just play 517 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: games in virtual environments, but to be more manifestly and 518 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: directly creative than we could ever be in any other 519 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: kind of environment, to have methods through which we we 520 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: just continually refine our abilities to translate thoughts and creativity 521 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: directly into forms that can be sensed interesting. So you could, like, 522 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, under this kind of ideal virtual reality environment, 523 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: you could have something like a tulpa. You could you know, 524 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: just imagine something and then have it brought into being 525 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: in front of you, and then interact with it. So 526 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: as far as Roycewitz is um used the term here, 527 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: I think what we're talking about here is a kind 528 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: of subconscious projection of both the fear of mainstream rejection 529 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: by authority concerning UFO sidings, as well as a fear 530 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: of retribution. And I think this is interesting because we 531 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: do see this a lot, uh these days, you know, 532 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: in messaging against political and co for all others. You know, 533 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: like in a political adversary is at once both the 534 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: thing that doesn't take us seriously and is also actively 535 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: working against us in a dangerous way. So the enemy 536 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: is both inept and insidious at the same time. It's 537 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: funny umberto Echo, you know, pointed out that one of 538 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: his characteristics of fascism, as he described it, was that 539 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: fascism perceives its enemies as both impossibly powerful and extremely weak, 540 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: Like at the same time, you know that that its 541 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: enemies constitute this overwhelmingly threatening plot against the power of 542 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: the you know, the fascist contingent in the state, and 543 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: at the same time constantly talking about the weakness of 544 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: their enemies and denigrating what they can do in contrast 545 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: with the fascist's own strength. Is the minute so I 546 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: wonder to what extent then, in black are kind of 547 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: a fear of and a desire for fascism, you know, 548 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: like like the fear of these these government enemies showing 549 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: up at your door or step to suppress you, and 550 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: also the desire for it, like the validation that would 551 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: come with it. Oh. Absolutely, that's a really good point. 552 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: I mean, that's something that's always going on in like 553 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory psychology is you know, if you not to 554 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: say that there aren't real you know, there are real 555 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: conspiracies and real abuses of power and all that, But 556 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: in the ones that are more fanciful and imaginary and 557 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: based on you know, poor evidence and all that, uh, 558 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: where people just build these architectures of shadowy organizations out 559 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: there pulling the strings on all the puppets everywhere. You 560 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,239 Speaker 1: can absolutely see this tension between of course, like the 561 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: fact that the conspiracy is a terrible thing, and you 562 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: think it's a terrible thing and you wouldn't really want 563 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: it to exist, but at the same time, the fact 564 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: that you believe in it kind of does make you 565 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: want it to exist because because other people don't believe you, 566 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: and you want to be proven right and so evidence 567 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: of this horrible, unimaginably bad thing actually is kind of 568 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: pleasurable and exciting to you. Yeah, and this gets this 569 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: is something you see with UFO siding experiences and alien 570 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: abduction experiences as well. Is that no matter no matter 571 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: to what degree the individual believes the experience happened. And 572 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: and I certainly want to drive that home that there 573 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: are there do soon to be cases where people believe 574 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: something happened and and and it may be traumatic, uh 575 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: And and I don't want to dismiss that trauma. But 576 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: at the same time, like being a part of it 577 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: is to be a part of something important, like the 578 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: the the aliens came to me, So there is something 579 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: if not important about me, then at least my experience 580 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: is important now. And and that that can be empowering. 581 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: And when we see that in in you know, religion 582 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: all the time too. Uh, the idea that that that's 583 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: something out there in the universe takes interest in us 584 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: like that that is a value. So you know, sometimes 585 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: it's just nice that the men in black care and 586 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: they showed up and they can bake up cookies. Now, Rosa, 587 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: it's also connects the men in black idea to the 588 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: out of the Brothers of Shadow in Eastern mysticism. And 589 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: this is something I wasn't familiar with this previously either, 590 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: though I guess I might have seen some echoes of 591 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: it in various nineties television shows. Yeah, I feel like 592 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: this link might be kind of tenuous. Um, But I 593 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: tried to go dig deeper into this to figure out 594 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: what's going on here. So it seems to me that 595 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: the idea of the Brothers of Shadow is sort of 596 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: an appellation by Western occultists, like like say the Theosophus 597 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: or Madame Bolovatsky and all that sort of unfairly applied 598 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: or associated with a sect or suborder of Tibetan Buddhism 599 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: known as the dug Puzz or drug puzz, the drug lineage. 600 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: Now I'll come back to that in a second. But 601 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: so I was thinking about the concept of paranormal agents 602 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: in black suits, and like, why why is that right 603 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: there in their name, the fact that they wear black suits. Um, 604 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: it's so interesting in what it reveals about about culture 605 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: and psychology and archetypes, Like the black suit tie is 606 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: clearly a very meaningful part of the folklore architecture here. 607 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: It says something about power, says something about anonimity, it 608 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: says something about formality and professionalism and maybe some other qualities. 609 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: But the black suit more traditionally, I mean, now that's 610 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: this is very becoming very global, But it used to 611 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: be a more like Western kind of European and American 612 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: model of you know, how you demonstrate professionalism and culture, right, 613 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: and it was sort of spread to other areas as 614 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 1: a part of spreading Western culture. Yeah, And so I 615 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: was wondering, Okay, what would men in black look like 616 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 1: at other times and in other cultures with different ideas 617 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,280 Speaker 1: about the meanings of colored clothing and different types of clothing. 618 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: I was trying to imagine, Okay, if you have men 619 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: in black in Chinese UFO experiences, what they dressed the 620 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: same when they wear black suits? Or would they tend 621 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: to more often wear something different. So I tried to 622 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,959 Speaker 1: see if I could find any men in black type 623 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: reports from for example, China, and I didn't really come 624 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: up with anything. I was reading an article from in 625 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: the South China Morning Post about the UFO society of China. Uh. 626 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: This article reported quote, over the past ten years, there 627 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: have been five thousand reports of UFOs in China, and 628 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: it told the story of a man who claimed to 629 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: have been abducted by an alien woman from Jupiter who 630 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: had sex with him during his absence from Earth. And 631 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: there were no men in black anywhere in these stories. Now, 632 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 1: there may be some type of analogous men in black 633 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: experiences in Chinese UFO encounters, but if if so, I 634 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: couldn't come across any evidence of it, though. That's interesting. Yeah, 635 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: I haven't done any any reading on really Chinese UFO accounts. 636 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 1: I've done a little bit on the like sasquatch cryptid 637 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: reporting in China, but not the UFOs. But that's interesting. Well, yeah, 638 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just interesting that clearly UFOs are a 639 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: somewhat global experience phenomena. Uh, people claim to have had 640 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: these experiences in different parts of the world, but not 641 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: everybody's going to have the exact same like kind of 642 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: feelings about men in black suits with ties, or maybe 643 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: they will, I don't know. Maybe that's a more universal 644 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: kind of signifier at this point. Yeah. Well, I mean, 645 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: I guess the the UFO theorist would argue that, of 646 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: course the men in black are gonna wear black suits 647 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: if suits are the standard of dress and they're just 648 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 1: gonna They're gonna wear whatever is appropriate given the culture 649 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,919 Speaker 1: at the time. But what would that be, I mean 650 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: that that would help help us get a better idea 651 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: of what the men in Black exactly are supposed to represent. Well, well, 652 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: let's see if they landed in say Victorian England, what 653 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: would they have worn where they would be dressed up 654 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,879 Speaker 1: like uh, like like the the the police that they 655 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: definitely wear bowler hats, like it looks like Scotland yard. Yeah, 656 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: I guess. So, you know, whatever the standard is, right, 657 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: Edwardian men in black like that a should be the sequel. 658 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: That's what I want to see. Well, I'm sorry, I 659 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: got side tracked. I want to come back to the 660 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: idea of the Brothers of Shadow. So I think that 661 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: from what I can tell, this is term applied by 662 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: like these Western occultists, uh to a sect or suborder 663 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: of Tibetan Buddhism, as I was saying, called the dugpas 664 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: with the drug push, the drug poll lineage. And and 665 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: I think this association seems to be unfair as they 666 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: obviously do not see themselves as like sorcerers or shadowy 667 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 1: nefarious figures like the Western occultists characterize them uh, though 668 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: for what it's worth, older Western taxonomy is sometimes referred 669 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: to the monks of this order as red hats, and 670 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: they do dress in red robes and hats on some occasions, 671 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: though this is true of many orders of Tibetan Buddhist monks, 672 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: not just the drug tradition. So obviously the cultural associations 673 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: are getting lost across history and translation here with this 674 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 1: whole relation to the Brothers of Shadow, I don't think 675 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: this means that Tibetan experiences with UFOs and men in 676 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: Black wouldn't necessarily involve people dressing in red, though it 677 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: doesn't make you have to consider this like what parts 678 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: of the men in Black belief architecture are contingent and 679 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: what parts would be universal. All right, on that note, 680 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but when we 681 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: come back, we're going to discuss the Men in Black 682 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: just a little bit more than all right, we're back. 683 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: You know, another comparison between the men in Black experience 684 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: tradition and other types of paranormal experiences people tend to 685 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: have is experiences that are commonly associated with with sleep 686 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: related episodes, like the shadow people. Yeah, this is a 687 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: this is an interesting topic that I think I discussed 688 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 1: a much older episode of stuff to blow your mind, 689 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:43,240 Speaker 1: but it seemed appropriate to bring it back up here. Um. Basically, 690 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: it all hinges on a two thousand six study Swiss 691 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: study that was published in the journal Nature about a 692 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: possible connection between various shadow people um experiences and something 693 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 1: actually going on inside the brain. Now, what exactly are 694 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: these shadow people experiences? Like? So basically it's the it's 695 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: it's not so much a full on men in black scenario, 696 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 1: like I saw a weird man in a black suit 697 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: standing you know, you knocked on my door and we talked, 698 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: and he told me not to tell anyone about flying saucers. 699 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 1: Nothing like that. But it's more of a a symptom 700 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: that's been reported for a while by a psychiatric and 701 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: neurological patients where there is a feeling there's a sense 702 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: of a dark figure, say in the room with you, 703 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: like looming over your bed maybe or something. Uh, and 704 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,760 Speaker 1: in fact that that's there in the men in black tradition. 705 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,439 Speaker 1: Some some of these reports mentioned that like people who 706 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: had encounters with them, sometimes they'd be standing there over 707 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,800 Speaker 1: their bed, Yeah, looming over your like a ring wraith 708 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: right um, so the researchers in the study. Then they 709 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: made the discovery while evaluating a psychologically normal twenty two 710 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: year old woman for surgical treatment of epilepsy, and when 711 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 1: they electrically stimulated her brains left temporo parietal junction or TPJ, 712 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: they repeatedly gave she repeatedly had the sensation of a 713 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: lurking shadow in her presence, like a shadow man, And 714 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: she perceived this shadow person just behind her, interfering with 715 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: her attempts to read a book. And when the researchers 716 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: stimulated her in a seated position, she perceived herself to 717 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: be seated in the entity's lap um quote he was 718 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: clasping her in his arms, which she described as an 719 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: unpleasant feeling. So essentially what seemed to have been taking places. 720 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: She was observing her own body the whole time, but 721 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: as the t PJ concerned self processing, self other distinction 722 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: and multisensory body integration info, the electrical stimulation caused her 723 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: to attribute her own actions to an alien other, and 724 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: a similar distortion maybe at work in various other uh, 725 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, psychiatric manifestations of alien entities. You know anything, 726 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 1: that involves her being a nus other being in your room, 727 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: being an alien, a demon, a man in black, a spirit, 728 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: a fairy, etcetera. So the researchers proposed that electrical stimulation 729 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: of this area in the patient disturbed multisensory and and 730 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 1: uh sinso motor integration of information with respect to her body, 731 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: leading to the appearance of a first rank symptom of 732 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,839 Speaker 1: schizophrenia in a person with no psychiatric history. And it's 733 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: notable here that the hyperactivity in the temporo parietal cortex 734 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: of patients with schizophrenia may lead to the misattribution of 735 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 1: their own actions to other people. So we see, you know, 736 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: a related um situation there. Well, that seems like another 737 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a more clinical type of condition, 738 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: but UM related to the milder version I talked about earlier. 739 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: How you know, there appears to be sometimes just contagion 740 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 1: between what's going on in one brain subsystem and another 741 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: brain subsystem. That the actions that you see other people do. 742 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: Maybe you attribute your own thoughts to your imagination of 743 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: someone else's mind. You think they're thinking whatever you're thinking, 744 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:09,240 Speaker 1: or you you you blur the lines between imagination and memory. 745 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: Absolutely so I don't present this as as the answer 746 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 1: for shadow people. Experiences are certainly for men in black, 747 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: because there are various reasons that one might hallucinate Misremember 748 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: we're engaging in any of these these situations we've discussed um. 749 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 1: Oliver Sacks in his book Hallucinations specifically calls out hypnopompic hallucinations, 750 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: the hallucinations that we have coming out of sleep. Um. 751 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: He describes these as a source of malevolent entity perception. 752 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 1: So you know, it could certainly be one of the 753 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,239 Speaker 1: reasons at play. But then again, to go back to 754 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,439 Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, something like men and Black, 755 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: it's not just people having having an experience and then 756 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 1: reporting it. It's also other people interpreting bits of that experience, 757 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,880 Speaker 1: and other people create eating things, creating fantasy and sci fi, etcetera. 758 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 1: Think getsap becoming a part of other people's hallucinations and 759 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: other people's interpretation of hallucinations. So you know, it's it's 760 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: not happening in a vacuum. Yeah. Interesting, I was reading 761 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 1: an article, uh from because so I was wondering, Okay, 762 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:23,440 Speaker 1: do men in black encounters still really happen? Yeah, you 763 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,760 Speaker 1: read about them from the twentieth century, from the nineteen 764 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 1: fifties and sixties and on through the eighties and nineties, 765 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: And I was like, I haven't really encountered a claim 766 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: of the men in Black encounter or experience that that 767 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,279 Speaker 1: happened in recent decades. What's going on there? So I 768 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: looked this up and I did find an article. I 769 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 1: found an article en slate by Aesha Harris from telve 770 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: about whether men in Black sidings still happen because most 771 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: of the stories you run into tend to be older. 772 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: And so the author in this article asked you fologist 773 00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: Jerome Clark, who has mentioned in royce Witz is a 774 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,720 Speaker 1: coal whether people still report men in black encounters these days. 775 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: Apparently the reports have quote tapered off significantly in the 776 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:12,359 Speaker 1: fifteen years since the original Men in Black movie was released. Um, 777 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,280 Speaker 1: but Clark consists he does not think that the film 778 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: had anything to do with that. Instead, he attributes it 779 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 1: to a lack of investigation into the issue in recent years, 780 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 1: especially since the passing of the ufologist John A. Keel, 781 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: who apparently cataloged a lot of these experiences. UH, did 782 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 1: a lot of this kind of research made by research 783 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,840 Speaker 1: and investigation. We're talking about continually writing about it and 784 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:40,799 Speaker 1: keeping the idea alive in UFO enthusiast communities and publications. 785 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 1: But I think also like, you know, collecting other people's experiences. Yeah, 786 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: um so. On the other hand, the British ufologist Nick 787 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,840 Speaker 1: Redfern insists that Men in Black encounters do still happen, 788 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: as chronicled in his book The Real Men in Black 789 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: in two thousand eleven. I don't know if that's trying 790 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,320 Speaker 1: to cash in on a movie tie in, but personally, 791 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,919 Speaker 1: I would say, despite what Clark says, I would tend 792 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,920 Speaker 1: to wonder if the movie Men in Black does have 793 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: something to do with the decline in Men in Black reports. 794 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 1: I think this could be sort of inverse to what 795 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 1: often happens, where UFO sightings seem correlated with like Flying 796 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: Saucer science fiction, and elements of these alien encounters sometimes 797 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 1: seem to correlate with elements that show up in fiction 798 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: over time. And I wonder if this inverse correlation, if 799 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:32,839 Speaker 1: if it is actually there, I mean, I don't know, 800 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: but I wonder if this inverse correlation is there, if 801 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 1: it might have to do with the fact that the 802 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,839 Speaker 1: Men in Black movies are comedies, like that. They make 803 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 1: the idea funny and more and more so than that, 804 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,440 Speaker 1: because certainly we have funny UFO and funny alien movies 805 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 1: that have come out over the years. Certainly it was 806 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: in a case where um, Earth Girls are easy killed 807 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,920 Speaker 1: off the idea of alien abductions. But you still have 808 00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,000 Speaker 1: a mix, right, You have serious films and scary film 809 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 1: homes and films that clearly are made by people who 810 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: want to believe. Whereas the Men in Black films are 811 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 1: really outside of those other those earlier Men and Black 812 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: films that I mentioned in the X Files episode, it's 813 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: in various sprinklings of Men in Black lore and other 814 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,879 Speaker 1: uh pictures and shows. I can't think of anything that's 815 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,200 Speaker 1: really served as a counterbalance to the Men in Black 816 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,440 Speaker 1: comedy movies, you know, like if we had just had 817 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,799 Speaker 1: one like deadly serious Fire in the Sky esque Men 818 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 1: in Black film like like that would have done a lot, 819 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: perhaps to keep it going. Boy, what about the Eric 820 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 1: Roberts movie, Well that was what though, yea, yeah, so 821 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,120 Speaker 1: it came out out of the wrong time, so you 822 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 1: might have had balance initially, But then what happened when 823 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: Men in Black two came out and three or the 824 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 1: in the upcoming one. I think the next one is 825 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,919 Speaker 1: the fourth one. I could be wrong, but really there's 826 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: the whole I think I'm asking you for the second 827 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 1: time in this episode. They're making another one. There at 828 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,759 Speaker 1: least four, so I only of the first one of 829 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,799 Speaker 1: the movies. But I remember being gross in that way, 830 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 1: like especially late nineties movies were gross where there was 831 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:13,320 Speaker 1: a time of like c G I snot and slime, 832 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,000 Speaker 1: a lot of mucus. Am I wrong? Now? There was? 833 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 1: There was a lot of gross stuff in it because 834 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,880 Speaker 1: there was the villain was it was a roach like 835 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,760 Speaker 1: essentially a large roach in a human costume, like wearing 836 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 1: a human skin, and there were a lot of gross 837 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,719 Speaker 1: side gags involving that character. Did I send you a link? 838 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,879 Speaker 1: I think I did send you a link to where 839 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 1: I found the Men in Black feature film novelization. Oh yeah, well, 840 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 1: I guess it would have been one of those. Given 841 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,400 Speaker 1: the timeframe and uh and that the you know, the 842 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 1: scale of the film. Man, that's got to be like 843 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,319 Speaker 1: the ultimate movie novelization. You would not have imagined it 844 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: could happen, and yet it did. You know, I would 845 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:57,680 Speaker 1: love to hear from anyone out there first of all, 846 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: if you've seen any of these other Men in Black film, 847 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,239 Speaker 1: not I mean not the comedy sequels, but like the 848 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,200 Speaker 1: film or the the the earlier film, and you have 849 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,239 Speaker 1: any insight on them. I'd also love to hear from 850 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:11,799 Speaker 1: anybody who read the original comic books, like what were they? Like, 851 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,279 Speaker 1: are the fans? Are there? Are there fans of the 852 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 1: original Men in Black comics? And if they are, do 853 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: they how do they feel about the films? I'm always 854 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,280 Speaker 1: interested in the you know, how a particular franchise evolves 855 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,320 Speaker 1: like that. For that matter, if anyone out there has 856 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: had experiences with you know, with Men in Black or UFOs, 857 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:32,719 Speaker 1: you know, we would we would love to hear from you. 858 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 1: You know, we promise that if you be right in 859 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: with your accounts, we will not make fun of you. 860 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,880 Speaker 1: We will, you know, skeptically, uh and enthusiastically approach it 861 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,080 Speaker 1: as we always do. Yeah, all right, Well that's it 862 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:45,799 Speaker 1: for this episode. If you want to check out other 863 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, some of the 864 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,560 Speaker 1: various other uh sort of paranormal episodes that we've recorded 865 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,160 Speaker 1: over the years, you can find them. It's Stuff to 866 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,920 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mothership. That's where 867 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: we find them all. That's where we find links out 868 00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 1: to various social media accounts. That's where we'll find a 869 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,399 Speaker 1: tab for our store work where you can buy shirts 870 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,600 Speaker 1: and stickers and other things with our logo on it, 871 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: with various episodes specific designs on them. You can get those, 872 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,960 Speaker 1: you can wear them, you can deface public property with them. Um, 873 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,960 Speaker 1: it's all available to you. Another great way to support 874 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,720 Speaker 1: the show, however, it's just rate and review us wherever 875 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 1: you have the power to do so. You don't have to, 876 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,160 Speaker 1: you know, piss off the authority figures. Just go and 877 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,360 Speaker 1: rate and review us wherever you get this podcast. It 878 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,040 Speaker 1: helps us out tremendously huge things. As always to our 879 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,640 Speaker 1: excellent audio producers Alex Williams and Tarry Harrison. 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