WEBVTT - Bonus episode: Psychedelic Confessions - Speaking Personally 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:07.720 Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.600 of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.040 show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.760 views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:23.480 Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.400 an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.720 even represent my own and nothing contained in this show 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.680 should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:44.720 any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today we're gonna 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:50.279 bring you a holiday bonus episode instead of our regular series. 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.520 In this case, I'm being interviewed for someone else's podcast. 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:56.400 It's a friend of mine, gian Carlo kind of s 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.480 c O, who has a podcast called Mango dot tv. Uh. 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.320 He asked me to be the first guest in a 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:07.440 series he has started called Psychedelic Confessions, in which he 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.400 interviews various people in the field. I think Dennis McKenna 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.119 was on at some others who you may have heard 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:16.200 on Psychoactive, and in it we reflect on our respective 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:21.840 experiences with psychedelics, with with psilocybin, mushrooms, and LSD and ayahuasca, 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.240 mescal and kennamine, d M T M, d M A, 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:28.280 cannabis and others. So, as you can imagine, this was 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:32.120 perhaps one of my most personal interviews. I really think 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:35.920 you'll enjoy it. Now, before go taking you there, I 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:39.080 just want to remind you that the second season of 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.520 Psychoactive will come to an end in late January three. 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:47.840 At that point I'll be looking for new sponsors so 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.240 we can keep the podcast going and get it up 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:53.160 and going again later in the year. So in the meantime, 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.919 if you've enjoyed Psychoactive, please take this opportunity to spread 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:59.680 the word to friends and colleagues, encourage them to listen 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:03.000 to it, to download it, leave your comments Wherever you 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.480 leave comments about podcast, uh, feel free to send me 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:10.120 your own comments to either the Psychoactive email address or 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:13.120 to Ethan at Nadelman dot net. I'll do my best 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:17.200 to respond. And here you go with an episode of 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:22.160 psychelic Confessions and Giancarlo kind of SCIO's Mango TV podcast. 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:34.160 O God so Nata Nana go go so Nata So 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:41.480 Nana go God, So Nata so not go Gods or 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:49.400 Nata son go God or nota so not orient go god, 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:54.840 so nata so not a. Hello guys, Welcome to the 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:59.000 seventh episode of the Mango TV podcast. I'm here with 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:03.920 another One. Very excited for this conversation, described by Rolling 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.000 Stones as the point meant for drug policy reform efforts 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.880 and the real drugs are Another Man is widely regarded 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.720 as the outstanding proponent of drug policy reform, both in 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.840 the United States and abroad. He founded and directed first 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:21.040 the Linden Smith Center and then the Drug Policy Alliance, 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:26.480 from during which time he and his colleagues were at 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.320 the forefront of dozens of successful campaign to legal as 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.840 marijuana and advanced other alternatives to the War on drugs. 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.480 Ethan currently also the leading podcast on all things drugs 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:40.760 called Psychoactive. Welcome with and It's a pleasure. So I 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.280 would like to propose you something different. Rather than me 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:46.920 asking questions on your expertise on on drug policy, I 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:51.000 would like your help to educate our audience on a 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:54.560 bunch of different psychoactive drugs. I want to premise that 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:59.720 people listening don't do these drugs alone. Find a guide 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.680 for the sitter, like you wouldn't go on top of 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:06.400 a volcano. Alone, so be mindful. Some of the substances 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:10.480 are illegal, some can be very can give very adverse reactions, 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:15.080 so be educated and have a have a have an 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:21.200 expert guide. So I choose twelve compounds, and we're gonna 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.480 see if we can go through all of them and 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:29.400 and just share our our experience. UM, I want to 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:34.480 add two variables. So one thing people usually underestimated when 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:39.120 they talk about psychedelic drug effect is the dosage. So 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:43.840 some of this compound have a very different effect. So 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.760 we're gonna try to be mindful of when we talk 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:50.240 about the effect UM in in in being clear if 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.919 it's low, medium or hideos. And then the other thing 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:55.840 we have to be mindful when we talk about this 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.240 UM this compound is the intention. So what are we 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:03.920 looking to att eve? Do we want recreational or celebration outcome? 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.600 Do we want a medical or sako therapetical session, or 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:12.160 do we want a spiritual transcendental session? So UM, let 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:14.120 me tell, let me tell you the compound I choose, 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:16.600 and let me know if you think I should we 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:19.800 should remove or at something. So I have for you 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:25.200 to discuss today Cannabis, marijuana, mushroom, l S, d M, 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:32.280 d M A ayahuasca, pot, some M katamine, cambo, and 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:37.320 t C B. Huh okay, Well, I have never done peyote. Um, 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:39.920 I've done escaland ones, but you know, I don't know 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:42.359 if it's all that different from me than having done mushrooms, 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:46.000 um tambo. I've been offered it to it, and I 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.159 somehow the notion of purging in the way that tambo 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:51.840 does I turned away from that. And I haven't done 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.440 some pedro either, So I think the the other ones 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.560 I have anything ranging from a single experience to half 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.600 dozen many years ago to much more recent experience. Right, 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.680 So let's start from the beginning. So marijuana, what's your 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:11.479 favorite use? How tell us a little your your relationship 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:13.880 with that plant. Well, I mean I'll tell you first 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:17.000 of all, that has been marijuana has been basically my 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.200 friend for many years. I didn't start until I was 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.680 eighteen years old. I'm now sixty four, so you know, 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.760 we've been friends for forty six years, and I say 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:30.880 it's been an overwhelmingly positive relationship. I should preface that 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.600 first by saying, I know people for who marijuana is 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:37.480 a terrible relationship, People who not just become paranoid but 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.920 become delusional. So, you know, people who become addicted to 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.800 it in a way that's problematic in their lives. So 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:46.640 I don't want to say marijuana's for everybody. I'm lucky 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.360 and that virtually all my drug relationships have been generally 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.640 or almost entirely positive. So but I understand that's not 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.320 the case for everybody else but marijuana. I mean, I've 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:58.320 never been a daily consumer. I mean, there might be 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:00.920 moments when I'm at a festival or with a certain 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.360 friends who gets high every day, and I might smoke 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:05.640 multiple days in a row, but I almost have an 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:08.880 anti addictive personality. So if I smoked three for days 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.120 in a row, like, I don't want to even smoke 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.160 the following day, you know, I just want to clear out. 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.480 What I like is if I if I've not smoked 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.880 marijuana for a week or two or more, the first 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.800 time I do it, it's delicious, right, and especially good marijuana. 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:28.080 And what happens to me is I start to stretch. 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:31.080 I get this incredible desire to stretch and to be 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.160 in my body. I remember it was funny when I 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:35.280 was younger. I might be walking along my daughter down 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.800 the streets in Manhattan, and she would be so embarrassed 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:39.000 when I was in the middle of the road, I'd 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.760 stop and stretch. You know. Now she's growing accustomed to it. 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:44.480 But marijuana, it helps me get in my body. I 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:48.160 love it with things like um uh, swimming, I mean that. 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.440 I mean, look, we all know about marijuana and food. 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.120 We know about marijuana, go in the movies. You know, marijuana, 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.840 including edible form. For going to the symphony has been beautiful. 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:02.920 Um for me the least developed of my sensibilities. You know, 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.360 food tastes, sense and all that is my aesthetic sensibility. 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.680 So for me, getting high before I go to a 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:14.360 museum really significantly elevates the experience. I have a vivid 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.160 memory of being in Prague and going to this house 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.400 in Prague that was the museum of a famous turn 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.040 of the century, you know, check artists who have done 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:24.760 in all sorts of forms, and just being captivated in 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.640 a way that I never would have without the marijuana. 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:32.200 But when it comes to the present day, my typical 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:36.559 use of marijuana now, my favorite juse is once a 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.240 week when I'm home in New York, I take ten 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:44.040 milligrams of edible marijuana, grab my headphones and head down 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.880 to the corner where there's a Chinese massage place, and 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:51.440 I have a multi hour massage and for very deep massage, 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:53.480 you know, walking on the backs of my legs and 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:57.000 my sides. And for me, I think that keeps me centered. 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.599 It's my own basis, my closest thing I have to 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.080 a real irritation in my life. My brain just floats. 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:05.760 I come out of there feeling great, and I think 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.199 of it as an integral part of my process of 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:13.319 healthy aging. Amazing, amazing and and and for me it's complicated. 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:16.960 You know, I had a problem of abuse. I end 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.400 up being in a rehability. I went on a rehab 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.959 for wheat. Yeah, they were there. Everybody was like why 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.319 you here. Crystal met the heroine, crack, cocaine and alcohol, 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.160 and I was like, kind of bit and you know 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:31.959 it's for me. It was very difficult to use without abuse. 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:36.120 And the Graham Hackck says that every plant has a spirit, 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.200 and every spirit as a personality. So the myaska as 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:43.160 the loving grandmother, the or the boga is the stern grandfather, 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.959 and the marijuana is the trickster spirit. So it tricks 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:50.800 you in belief that you needed every day and and 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.000 so so it's a it's a it's a tricky one. Okay, 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.840 what about mushrooms. So just for our audience, a typical 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:00.400 load dose of mushrooms, I mean in the of those. Now, 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:02.680 there is also the micro dose, which is very popular, 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:07.760 which is the James Fatima protocol of zero twenties, zero 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:13.319 fifteen just pre perceptional, uh, one day every three days. 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:16.760 Um So this is becoming very popular now. But the 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.520 low dos is roughly I would say half a gram. 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:23.080 A medium dose also called museum those is like maybe 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.640 a two grams, and then high dose is when we 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:29.360 go into you know, five plus into full ego dissolution. 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.480 Um So, tell us about your relationship. I'll tell you. 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.400 I mean, for me, I've rarely done the low dos. 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:39.040 In fact, the first time I ever really did it. Uh, 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.680 there was a friend of mine having a fiftieth birthday 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.480 party whose name happens to be Gi and Carlo Canevstia. 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.559 And at that party, he he was making available to 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.719 his guests some chocolate, you know, mushrooms at about one 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.160 graham half a gram one graham, and I think some 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:59.160 other substances maybe chocolate cannabis as well, and I had 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:04.480 I just perfect dose. And I will say I danced 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.439 that night like I don't think I've ever danced in 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.640 my life. I had a spectacular time at your birthday party, 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:12.719 Jen Carle, and I came away going I didn't know 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.400 mushrooms could be so much fun in the low dose, 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.240 and so you know. But then, quite frankly, a few 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.920 weeks ago, I was in Europe um and uh I 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.679 actually it was, I'll say, in Scandinavia. I want to 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.800 see the exact city, and somebody was offering chocolate mushrooms 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:29.880 and I took it out about the same dose, thinking 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:31.000 I was going to go to a place with a 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.840 wonderful DJ and let loose and dance, and it turned 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:35.760 out to be a whole bunch of people standing around 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.319 an ugly looking bar type thing, and I just had 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.400 a you know, get through it finds, you know, somebody 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.480 I could talk to and focus on them and just 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.360 not be too bummed out about the whole thing. So 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.880 I'm increasingly intrigued by that, um, the lower dose use 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:56.880 of mushrooms, maybe combined with with some cannabis um for 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:02.880 you know, having fun. That said almost My entire experience 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.240 with mushrooms has been the high dos. It's been the 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.040 four or five six grams of mariana, of mushrooms, of 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:12.640 dry mushrooms. And I started when I was about twenty three. 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:14.800 I must have done them about ten times back then, 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:19.160 and they have played an incredibly important role in my life. 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.760 So blindfolded with the headson, I never have done them blindfold. 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:24.000 And I have friends who told me, if you haven't 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:26.199 done on blindfold, you haven't really done them. But I 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:29.680 would tend to do them, um, going out maybe in nature, 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.839 maybe at the beach, maybe going outside to come on 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.280 and then coming back to my apartment or my friend 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.360 a friend's place. Um. But I'll tell you if I 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.440 think about, let's say I've done mushrooms at a high 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:46.920 dose maybe twenty five times in my life. And then 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:51.040 if you take the the say, the four hours between 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:53.160 the time when you're peaking and then when the kind 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.520 of you start to come down. Um, in those hundred 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:58.839 hours of my life, I have had some of the 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:03.040 most important sort of uh intellectual insights of my life. 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.040 I used to be a professor that really made a 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.400 difference to me. I've had the most amazing culinary experience 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.120 of my life. I had what, in some respects was 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:14.199 the most extraordinary orgasm of my life. I saw the 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:18.320 most beautiful sunset of my life. And and the moment 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.839 um when I was thirty two and actually had to 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.959 tell your ride Mushroom conferencing in Colorado that Andrew Wild 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.079 used to organize with others. Um, you know, I had 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.439 a moment there which where my sort of vision of 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.480 what my life was going to be, this life in 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.920 drug policy reform sort of crystallized for me. You know. 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.600 It wasn't an epiphany, but it really crystallized in that way. 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.199 And so I'd say, mushrooms have just played this really 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:49.280 really powerful um uh, you know, spiritual, intellectual, psychological, social 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:52.520 role in my life. So that there was a there 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.480 was if you want, like an ARC on those twenty 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.480 five session, would you go back to where you left? Then? 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:03.679 Then on EA, what's funny you asked that? Because I 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.400 did it I think nine times between the age of 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:11.120 twenty three and and uh, And that was and then, 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.480 you know, very good experiences, overwhelmingly no bad, no bad ones, 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.480 although I do have two bad ones I could talk about. 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.800 But then what happened was the last one of these experiences. 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:22.440 I was twenty five. I was, you know, approaching the 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:24.680 end of a long term relationship that I've been in 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:26.720 was since the beginning of college. I was trying to 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:28.600 think through what my focus was going to be in life. 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.120 Was I going to become an activist or become an academic. 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:32.760 Was I going to keep studying what was in my 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.080 specialty Middle East politics or go into something news is 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.320 Right before I got into the drug thing, and at 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.520 the remember the mushrooms came on and I started muttering 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.640 like conflict, conflict. I was just muttering conflict. I was 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.480 soon this energy coursing through my body, but just feeling 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:52.520 conflict conflict. Anyway, my life changed quite a bit. I 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.720 shifted my focus, change relationships, met the woman was going 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:58.200 to become my wife. Did not do mushrooms for seven years, 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.200 and then until your right, for seven years. I take 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.760 them for the first time in seven years, and the 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:08.520 drug starts to come on fairly strong, and it's like 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:10.800 just jumping right back to her I had been seven 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:16.280 years earlier, like conflict gods like. But then the thing 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:18.600 I started to get up And sometimes when the emotional 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:20.880 energy is coming on very strong at that high dose. 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.000 I like to be very physical, so I started running 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.440 through this field. It was actually to tell your right 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.720 high school on a summer weekend, right, and and and running, running, 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.440 getting all the energy going. And then the constantly kind 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.600 of dissolved. And it was in that session that I 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.880 really reached the realization that, you know, that my life 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.400 was really going to be about teaching about drugs, about 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:45.120 psychoactive drugs, and then it did not matter whether I 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:48.120 stayed in the university or went into politics or journalism 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.800 or advocacy, but that this was going to be my 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.760 calling in life, and that teaching about drugs would be 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.480 a vehicle for speaking out about some of the broader 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.760 issues that we were confronting in our socim and use company. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.080 For me, it was just it was just a settling. 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.280 It was a centering that was very beautiful and very calming. 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:07.600 A few weeks later, well a week later less than that, 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.240 I went into It was a TV show, Dan Rather 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.920 forty eight hours on Crack Street or whatever is one 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:14.480 of these, you know, in the height of the drug one, 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:17.840 and I walked in. I realized it's a set up. 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:20.680 You know, there's somebody who's been devastated by drugs and 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.040 a d agent and so you know, and there's all 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:26.560 set up, but I just centered right down. And for me, 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.200 you know, I've never looked back since that moment. I've 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.280 known that this was my calling in life. And I 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:34.360 feel quite blessed to have realized this. It's such a 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:40.080 young but because I think, you know, Michael Poland, compared 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.400 to the full moder network that we now know is 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:46.680 the neurocircuitry that gets subdued with the trip to means, 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.120 so including magic mushroom, and Michael Poland says, is the 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:53.760 closest thing to your egoic armor. And he says that 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.480 it's like the director of the orchestra of your brain 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:00.200 who then fall asleep. So for the first time, all 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:04.600 the different instruments are now free to be them now independent, 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:08.800 So there is not the the structure of your conditioning, 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:13.320 cultural conditioning, of your biography. So in that moment, you 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:18.639 are really allowed to see who you are without this 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:23.440 armor of of your ego. You know, it's interesting. I mean, 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:27.119 for me, I don't know that I ever achieve ego dissolution, 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:29.800 even with a very high dose mushrooms. I mean, I 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.640 know I'm told that I look psychotic and I can't 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.440 be out in public. I'm sort of walking around. My 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.280 arms are flying and my eyes look demonic. I mean, 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:40.920 you know, so I have my my partner who's with me, 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.480 and she's you know, watching out for me. And in 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.840 this sort of stuff. Um, it's it's extremely intense, but 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:50.119 it's very in the body, and I sometimes think of mushrooms. 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.080 It's almost like putting a power pack on my back, 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.040 and that power pack like like you're gonna fly, like 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:58.280 you know those all things, you know, the cartoons or 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.160 whatever puts a power pack on their on their back 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:03.400 and they can go fly. And it's like I'm gonna 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.399 be out there flying in a way, but grounded. And 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:10.520 it can go into an intellectual, a spiritual, a sexual, 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:14.680 a physical direction and I can guide it a bit, 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:16.879 but I can't control it. And if I try to 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.080 assert my will too much, the mushrooms will funk with me. 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.680 So I have to you know, I'm going there. I 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.040 don't go in typically with a lot of intent. It's 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.760 more like, let's see what's brewing inside me and what 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.040 these mushrooms will bring out. And so it's in that, 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:33.399 but I will say, you know, it's a very sometimes 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.200 quite physical for me. I'm in my body in a 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.760 deep and profound way. I'm feeling the energy coursing. I 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:43.040 sometimes feel almost animalistic when I'm under the influence of 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.040 these things. Um. I also will say, I'm not very 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:48.600 good at listening if I'm with somebody. I I've learned, 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:50.920 don't do hide those mushrooms with other people, like just 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.600 be in my own trip and hopefully if somebody who 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:55.560 can keep an eye on me to make sure I'm like, 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.320 you know, not chewing my arm off or something. And yeah, 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:01.560 I had so I had a very interesting high those 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.639 mushrooms when I was just start dating stuff. My wife 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.320 and that we decided to do this to be together 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:13.680 really seriously exclusively, and so she had closer apartment in 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:17.720 Paris and all her staff would I had arrived in 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:21.560 New York and it was also Christmas, and my mother 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:24.520 and my father and her daughter, all the family was here. 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:30.120 So the combination of the move in my subconscious created 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:33.680 a sense of completely you know, I felt really disoriented 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.760 and I didn't know what to do. So I did 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:41.159 five grand of mush and and uh and that was 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.200 a full on ego dissolution and it remains one of 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.120 the one of the most beautiful but also terrifying experience. 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:52.760 And in that moment of nothingness where your identity is 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:58.720 gone and you feel part of nothing, it's really frightening. 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:03.680 But then the me together, the real coagulation of your identity, 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:09.000 then it's really beautiful because you realize that the key 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:14.879 to rebuild yourself is your personal relation is love. You know, 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.600 it's all about love. And the sixty I really understand 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.119 what they meant because when you're completely gone and you 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:24.639 you lost not just your body but your identity and 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.320 you when you come back, you realize that the key 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.200 to understand who you are, it's complete linked to the 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:34.280 people you love around you. So to this day it's 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:37.280 it's definitely sometimes says can you please dose five grandmom, 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.879 because we had given this love declaration and then I 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:42.760 came out and I have my mother. It was like 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:48.000 like like a Ginsberg. Yeah, well you know how I'll 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:49.760 tell you. I mean, for me, there have been two 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:53.080 times when the mushrooms went in a very dark direction 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:57.280 and and it was like where everything is just blacked, 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:00.040 where you really I've never suffered from severe depression and 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:02.720 I've only ever gone through a depressive episode once for 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:04.720 a few months in my life. But it was like 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.680 where everything has a black edge. Everything looks like you 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:10.560 see the dead side right on the live side. And 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.600 and and and I used two different approaches. One which 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.040 felt a little like cheating, was I took some M 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.680 D M A and that helped lift me out and 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.560 make a softer, gentler experience. But the other one, which 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:24.760 is the one I think is the one that one 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.399 should aspire to, is I was on a beach actually 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:30.679 in Montauk, New York, at the end of Long Island, 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:33.760 and and just in a very dark place. I mean, 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:37.479 the sand all looked like decaying um, you know, uh, 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:41.480 skeletal matter. And there was some homes up top above 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.920 the beach, and they looked oppressive, and the greens looked 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:48.359 you know, ominous, and all of this, and I couldn't 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:50.800 escape it. You can't run from a bad trip, I mean, 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.000 that's the thing. And so then I and I conceived 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:57.639 in a way of this trip as this big ominous wave. 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.280 And for anybody who's ever gone swimming in the ocean, 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:02.800 you know you can't run from a big way, which 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.280 you need to do is to dive into it, dive 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:08.919 under it. And so I kind of almost you know, figuratively, 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:11.800 but even literally, I almost like died downward, like going 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:14.760 into child's post position on the beach and into the thing. 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:18.560 And I came out the other end of this thing 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:23.400 in my consciousness, and the depression lifted, and every all 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:26.720 of a sudden, those ominous looking trees now look like 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:30.919 a beautiful jungle in four dimensions, and the homes were 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:34.040 the most beautiful architecture I've ever seen, and the beach 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:37.040 was gorgeous and I was and it just lifted. And 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:40.760 so I think that understanding that when it's really bad, 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:43.200 I mean, yes, people can just hold on and try 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:45.840 it be you can't run, and if you can, if 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:49.520 you can dive into the blackness, sometimes that's what actually 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:53.359 brings you out the other side. How amazing, amazing um 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:58.440 ell is the well I have to say, LSD, I've 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:01.320 never done the quote unquote rowic dose. I'm a little 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:04.520 embarrassed to say that, you know. I mean, I've done 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:07.960 the kind of hundred microgram numerous times and and that's 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:10.280 been good to me. It feels a bit like a 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:13.600 mushroom experience, but it's got that kind of chugger chugger chugger, 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:16.720 you know, stimulant side to it just keeps going and going, 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:20.240 and it feels like it feels like at the hundred 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:22.680 micram level. For me, it feels like doing a kind 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:25.879 of three or four grams of mushrooms but with a 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:30.680 strong amphetamine underneath it. And so it's been good. UM. 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:33.840 More commonly, what I've done is to do and I 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:36.040 don't know, I I you know, so I don't know 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:38.360 what I call. I tend to think of micro docing 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:43.000 as being you know, three five below ten micrograms, and 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:45.879 what I would normally do would be between twenty and thirty, 0:23:45.960 --> 0:23:48.719 maybe forty. And I regard that as mini does. Now. 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:52.320 I just came from this amazing psychedelics and business conference 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:55.240 in Miami, the Wonderland Miami Conference, and there was somebody 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:57.879 involved in the whole micro dose failed and he was like, no, Ethan, 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:00.960 actually micro docing really is in the twenty area, you know. 0:24:01.320 --> 0:24:04.159 But I felt that when I did to that level, UM, 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:07.600 I find I I like it. It's not you know, 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:11.359 I've had some wonderful times sometimes combining it with a 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:15.199 little cannabis. UM. I found that sexually. Sometimes that can 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:18.159 be a wonderful combination. Low dose, you know, micro docing 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:21.840 of say twenty micrograms grams for me to get a 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:25.120 little bit of available cannabis um is a beautiful combination 0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:28.000 for that. So I've had wonderful times with friends, but 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:31.520 I don't have that kind of spiritual connection to LSD. 0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:35.000 And I've never done, you know, as I said, the 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:38.240 heroic dose, and i haven't ever pursued it, and I'm 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:41.000 maybe a little scared, and I feel like I really 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:44.400 should give it a go. But what about you? What's 0:24:44.400 --> 0:24:47.639 your experience there? Um? Similar? Similar? I never did the 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:51.040 rug dose. I've done a bunch of hundred hundred and 0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:56.200 fifty you know. Amanda Nepath initiated me in and the 0:24:57.800 --> 0:24:59.680 that was that beautiful. I think it was more like 0:24:59.760 --> 0:25:04.479 fifth the microgram. UM. I had some difficult time. Um. 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:08.159 You know. The thing with for me, the less this 0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:12.320 that I never did this ceremonially, so I never really 0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:16.600 feel safe. But like you, I'm intrigued. At some stage 0:25:16.760 --> 0:25:18.680 in one of my usually up and down I called 0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:20.840 Rick Dublin and he said, listen, I'm ready. I want 0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:23.240 to do a high dose. I want to you know 0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:26.560 that was it wasn't one of my many middle life crisis. 0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:29.040 And so we cooked me up with this guide in 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:33.520 California somewhere um and they had a protocol of three 0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:37.120 days where the first day you just you know, get 0:25:37.200 --> 0:25:40.119 closer to disper to the guide and and then you 0:25:40.200 --> 0:25:42.080 do some breathing and so yoga. You get ready for 0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:44.720 day two, they give a little bit of the m 0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:47.080 DM A just too ease, and then you go for 0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:51.080 five anthrem and I was booked, and then something happened. 0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:55.320 So the universe thought that I wasn't ready. But I'm 0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:59.240 I'm curious, and I don't know. You're familiar with the 0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:02.760 Christopher Bash, this professor of theology. I know the name, 0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:05.840 but I haven't read or know him. He did seventy 0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:09.800 three high dose this session in the course of twenty years, 0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:13.320 so roughly every three or four months he would go 0:26:13.400 --> 0:26:17.560 from under micagram. And I was in a psychedelic conference 0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:20.560 in London and he was there and he says that, 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:24.200 you know, twenty years every four months, that's a big commitment. 0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:26.800 And he said that at the beginning, you would you know, 0:26:27.040 --> 0:26:29.719 go in the LSD Real as a as a visitor, 0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:31.960 but then after so many times you become a resident 0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:36.560 and he's really so the future of humankind. He's really 0:26:37.000 --> 0:26:42.879 become part of this commist cosmic consciousness. And and yeah, yeah, no, 0:26:43.160 --> 0:26:46.359 it sounds like it's funny. You mentioned lady Amanda. And 0:26:46.840 --> 0:26:48.840 you know my one and only time in Burning Man 0:26:48.960 --> 0:26:51.000 about ten twelve years ago, and I was in Rick 0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:55.160 Doublin's maps camp and Alex Gray and Allison had their 0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:59.080 tent there. It was really wonderful and and Sasha Shogun 0:26:59.160 --> 0:27:01.960 and and later Amanda were just around the corner for me. 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:04.840 And I won't say who exactly gave me the hundred 0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:07.880 micrograhams of LSD, but it was the last night averting 0:27:07.920 --> 0:27:11.080 Man and a friend and I just biked all around 0:27:11.280 --> 0:27:13.920 the player and it was a weird night because everybody's 0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:17.320 leaving and so your landmarks are disappearing, so you're tripping 0:27:17.440 --> 0:27:20.040 and landmarks are disappearing, and you know, but that was 0:27:20.119 --> 0:27:24.480 a very pleasurable experiences, incredible. The same thing happened to 0:27:24.520 --> 0:27:28.119 me because you know, the dome's gone, right, and so 0:27:28.440 --> 0:27:31.320 they take the name of the street down. So it 0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:35.800 was exactly so maybe maybe one day we'll go together 0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:40.840 and them. I liked the Humans California md A. Yeah, 0:27:40.880 --> 0:27:42.720 I mean M D m A played an important role 0:27:42.800 --> 0:27:45.720 in my life. Um. You know, there was a moment 0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:49.160 in my early thirties, uh, when I had never done 0:27:49.200 --> 0:27:52.119 it before, and my marriage was you know, not in 0:27:52.200 --> 0:27:55.439 a good place, really bad, and uh, you know, we're 0:27:55.480 --> 0:27:57.800 going to marriage counseling and it wasn't really looking very 0:27:57.880 --> 0:28:01.080 optimistic and my wife and I um did M D 0:28:01.200 --> 0:28:04.040 m A and it was, oh my god. It was 0:28:04.160 --> 0:28:08.200 like you know, chains peeling away, like things lifting, and 0:28:08.520 --> 0:28:11.840 the sense of love that we felt. And I remember 0:28:11.840 --> 0:28:13.840 we were thinking, what we can't do this all the time. 0:28:13.960 --> 0:28:16.280 So we you know, we sat down and thought, how 0:28:16.320 --> 0:28:18.720 do we come back to this space without the drug? 0:28:18.840 --> 0:28:21.159 And we agreed on certain things while we runder the 0:28:21.200 --> 0:28:23.199 influence that here's what we would do. I remember going 0:28:23.240 --> 0:28:25.119 to see the marriage counselor a few days later and 0:28:25.200 --> 0:28:27.320 she was blowing away. She had heard about this, but 0:28:27.440 --> 0:28:30.800 to see it. And in the end we still split up, 0:28:31.000 --> 0:28:33.560 but I think it helped us to a softer landing 0:28:34.240 --> 0:28:37.000 where my X and I have been good friends and 0:28:37.240 --> 0:28:39.880 very good co parents for our you know, wonderful daughter 0:28:40.040 --> 0:28:42.360 for you know, the last you know, three decades or whatever. 0:28:42.960 --> 0:28:45.360 So it was great in that respect, and I think 0:28:45.720 --> 0:28:47.720 it played a It's played an important role in my 0:28:47.800 --> 0:28:51.240 other relationships since then, really and being able to clear 0:28:51.320 --> 0:28:53.400 the air, being able to talk and hear in a 0:28:53.520 --> 0:28:57.440 very heartfelt way. And my great regret, Jan Carlo is 0:28:57.480 --> 0:28:59.960 it really hasn't worked for me for the last fifteen years. 0:29:00.720 --> 0:29:02.920 You know. I loved it in my thirties and forties, 0:29:03.080 --> 0:29:05.960 and now I don't get that much of the upside. 0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:09.440 I definitely get the downside, and my body's like telling 0:29:09.480 --> 0:29:13.680 me Ethan, don't, don't do it. You know. Friends suggested 0:29:13.720 --> 0:29:15.600 that I try m D A that which was kind 0:29:15.640 --> 0:29:17.440 of the predecessor M to m D m A, the 0:29:17.480 --> 0:29:20.160 popular one back in the seventies. And I tried that 0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:22.720 not long ago, and I got a little more of 0:29:22.760 --> 0:29:24.520 the M D m ash effect and it lasted a 0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:27.240 little longer, but it kicked a shed at me physically 0:29:27.360 --> 0:29:30.960 for a few days. So I think now I relish 0:29:31.040 --> 0:29:34.160 the experience that I had. Some of my most beautiful memories, 0:29:34.320 --> 0:29:38.520 especially in relationships with UH with women, have been with 0:29:38.720 --> 0:29:41.680 those times, and I think it helps sustain me in 0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:45.640 a longer relationship. Um. But I regret that you know, 0:29:45.960 --> 0:29:48.760 I have to say it's in my past. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:29:49.360 --> 0:29:52.120 Also for me for for a couple of therapy. For me, 0:29:52.240 --> 0:29:56.640 the magic happens because you can see from the other 0:29:56.760 --> 0:29:59.760 person points of view. I you know, with Stephanie, I 0:30:00.440 --> 0:30:03.680 you know, under this this influence, I would see how 0:30:03.880 --> 0:30:08.280 she sees me and that really helped. And we have 0:30:08.400 --> 0:30:11.960 a friend that they have this yearly tradition they go 0:30:12.120 --> 0:30:14.880 to a uh this couple they offer a couple of 0:30:14.920 --> 0:30:19.760 therapy in England and it's basically again three days affair. 0:30:20.240 --> 0:30:23.680 They have this questionnaire for the couple that you fill 0:30:23.800 --> 0:30:27.080 up before taking m d M A, during and after 0:30:28.000 --> 0:30:30.960 and it's you know, question geared towards you know, acknowledgement 0:30:31.160 --> 0:30:33.640 of what is the thing that don't work for you, 0:30:34.120 --> 0:30:37.280 which way your needs are not met and and you know, 0:30:37.600 --> 0:30:41.840 give you such a clear perspective. So I remember Sasha 0:30:41.880 --> 0:30:44.160 Shergin Burnia Man told me that you can do MBM 0:30:44.200 --> 0:30:47.600 A once a year. There was actually said yeah, because 0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:49.960 you need time for the serotonin in and and so 0:30:50.360 --> 0:30:53.360 so you know which I also wonder are men more 0:30:53.560 --> 0:30:57.360 likely to burn out on mdmad women? I mean, just anecdotally, 0:30:57.960 --> 0:31:00.600 I think I think you know, women seemed able to 0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:02.920 use it longer and so get the effect, and I 0:31:02.960 --> 0:31:05.720 seem to remember that Sasha's wife and continue to like 0:31:05.920 --> 0:31:07.760 m dm ay and maybe using more often, even as 0:31:07.800 --> 0:31:11.640 Sasha was becoming more reserved. Rick Rick once told me 0:31:11.760 --> 0:31:16.000 that you have the down when you try to cope 0:31:16.080 --> 0:31:19.640 too early. Basically, when you have the serratony in depletion, 0:31:20.320 --> 0:31:22.960 then you have to take the day off. You have 0:31:23.080 --> 0:31:25.480 to like, you know, the Tuesday blows. You need to like, 0:31:25.600 --> 0:31:28.400 you know, be in the countryside, not having your phone, 0:31:28.480 --> 0:31:31.520 not having to deal the moment you try to cope, 0:31:32.360 --> 0:31:35.000 then you have to down. So so you need to 0:31:35.480 --> 0:31:38.640 really even more than the preparation for the integration. You 0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:43.040 need a full day where you're not solicited intellectually. And 0:31:43.120 --> 0:31:45.360 then of course there is the seratonin in integrator f 0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:49.200 HTP that that helps. But it's true that with me too, 0:31:49.320 --> 0:31:52.400 with age, the recovery is harder. Well, I even find 0:31:52.440 --> 0:31:55.440 that the experience itself. And so somebody suggests I've been trying, 0:31:55.520 --> 0:31:57.800 like opping the dose. I think I might try. Somebody 0:31:57.800 --> 0:32:00.480 suggests try a much lower dose, one that I would 0:32:00.480 --> 0:32:03.160 think that I would barely feel it and see see 0:32:03.200 --> 0:32:05.560 what that's like. So I might try that, but I've 0:32:05.640 --> 0:32:08.800 literally only done it, I don't know, maybe four or 0:32:08.840 --> 0:32:12.640 five times in the last fifteen plus years, and and 0:32:12.840 --> 0:32:15.800 none of them have really been right. So I want 0:32:15.840 --> 0:32:18.719 to add one thing, because you know, America is very 0:32:18.800 --> 0:32:22.680 pure ton around the idea of the recreational, and so 0:32:22.880 --> 0:32:25.920 I like to, you know, instead of using the word recreation, 0:32:26.000 --> 0:32:29.120 if you call it like celebratory. I remember two years 0:32:29.160 --> 0:32:31.880 ago I did the next as the other party, and 0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:34.480 a little bit like your experience of my my birthday 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:37.400 party with the mushroom, I had ten hours of dancing 0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:41.600 in an ecstatic celebration of life. And that also is 0:32:41.840 --> 0:32:45.880 um it's good. I seem to recall I may have 0:32:46.000 --> 0:32:48.000 taken a very low dose of M d M a 0:32:48.240 --> 0:32:50.520 your party in carl It together with the other stuff. 0:32:50.560 --> 0:32:52.520 It may have been the only time it's really worked 0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:54.960 for me in the last fifteen years. Now. This is 0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:58.840 my favorite, of course, ayowatcom Yeah, well, you know I've 0:32:58.880 --> 0:33:00.760 done it a couple of times, once in a Santo 0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:05.160 Dime ceremony in New York. Actually, um, I remember going 0:33:05.240 --> 0:33:07.680 into that when I was a little apprehensive, because you know, 0:33:07.720 --> 0:33:10.600 I'm fairly grounded in my Jewish tradition. I have a 0:33:10.720 --> 0:33:13.640 very strong Jewish identity. My father was a rabbi, you know, 0:33:13.720 --> 0:33:16.400 it's been part of my my life. And Santo Dime. 0:33:16.600 --> 0:33:18.880 You know, at the end of the ceremony, they're bringing 0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:21.080 up people you know who have you know, have been 0:33:21.160 --> 0:33:24.440 through a serious thing to put Jesus into their lives. 0:33:24.840 --> 0:33:26.880 And a friend of mine said, Ethan, just relaxed, see 0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:29.760 it as you're creating a vessel for you to enjoy 0:33:29.880 --> 0:33:32.400 this experience. And so that was really it was an 0:33:32.400 --> 0:33:34.800 interesting experience for me. I had met the shaman from 0:33:35.200 --> 0:33:38.200 Rio before. I liked them, you know. Um it was 0:33:38.480 --> 0:33:41.080 you know, fairly strict. You know, men and women separate 0:33:41.240 --> 0:33:42.760 and you have to sit in your chairs and you 0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:46.280 can't cross your legs or your arms. So that was unusual. Um. 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:48.760 But it was interesting experience and I would shift back 0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:52.240 and forth like as a participant observer. The first time 0:33:52.280 --> 0:33:54.760 I did it, um, which was a years before that, 0:33:55.440 --> 0:33:59.440 maybe fifteen eighteen years ago, was with a friend um 0:33:59.640 --> 0:34:03.160 and in a Barbara who's led many people on their 0:34:03.200 --> 0:34:07.000 ayahuasca experiences. In fact, the way I met Darren Aronovski, 0:34:07.080 --> 0:34:10.240 the movie director who was the producer of my podcast, 0:34:10.400 --> 0:34:13.640 was this fellow Gongo White, was our mutual guide on 0:34:13.719 --> 0:34:17.759 our first trips, and that one that was really remarkable 0:34:17.800 --> 0:34:22.000 experience where I basically I had a sort of telepathic 0:34:22.280 --> 0:34:25.960 connection with somebody, you know, just I. It was actually, 0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:27.839 it's a strange thing you went think would think about 0:34:27.840 --> 0:34:31.600 this on Iowaski experience. But there was a billionaire who 0:34:31.640 --> 0:34:34.680 played a pivotal role in the kind of marijuana legalization movement, 0:34:34.719 --> 0:34:37.239 and I had a very kind of tempestuous relationship with him, 0:34:37.520 --> 0:34:39.520 and he had sort of ritten me off, told people 0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:42.400 he didn't you know, he didn't want to deal with 0:34:42.520 --> 0:34:44.200 me anymore. It was all just kind of a weird 0:34:44.280 --> 0:34:46.520 and a personal thing. But I knew in my heart 0:34:46.560 --> 0:34:48.080 of hearts that there was no way we're going to 0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:51.360 succeed in legalizing marijuana until unless he relaxed and we 0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:55.719 had a partnership. And during the course of that experience, 0:34:55.880 --> 0:34:59.399 I began communicating in a sort of telepathic way, doing 0:34:59.440 --> 0:35:02.520 this kind of emotional scans of him and drafting this 0:35:02.800 --> 0:35:06.120 letter to him in my mind about about love and 0:35:06.239 --> 0:35:09.439 letting go and fathers and sons and all this sort 0:35:09.480 --> 0:35:13.000 of stuff. And I wrote the letter, but nobody saw it, 0:35:13.360 --> 0:35:15.400 and a few days later, out of the blue, he 0:35:15.640 --> 0:35:17.680 calls me and says, Ethan, I'm going to give you 0:35:17.800 --> 0:35:20.120 the money you asked for, and I'm doing this to 0:35:20.160 --> 0:35:22.520 show you I love I love you. And he never 0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:26.439 used that word with me before. So could it be coincidence, sure, 0:35:26.840 --> 0:35:31.279 But the circumstantial, you know, elements of that was just remarkable. 0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:35.600 So so that was um that was a great, beautiful 0:35:35.600 --> 0:35:37.920 experience and actually worked out quite well for my organization 0:35:37.960 --> 0:35:40.560 because it ended up being a million dollars. He came 0:35:40.600 --> 0:35:43.480 through with you. I sometimes joke about, you know, fundraising 0:35:43.520 --> 0:35:46.239 through Ayahuaska, even though that was not my intention going in. 0:35:47.640 --> 0:35:50.000 I think if I had gone into iOS experience thinking 0:35:50.040 --> 0:35:52.520 I want to focus on this, the ayahuasca would have 0:35:52.600 --> 0:35:54.040 kicked the ship out of me. It's just that it 0:35:54.200 --> 0:35:56.640 came up naturally in the way it did that. I 0:35:56.680 --> 0:35:59.560 think it allowed that to happen. So my my mother 0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:02.080 explanation of this phenomenon is that, you know, we have 0:36:02.239 --> 0:36:06.400 this electromagnetic field, right, but they are regulated by the ego, 0:36:06.600 --> 0:36:09.879 but by by this the full mode network. So when 0:36:10.000 --> 0:36:14.080 d MT like Salo Sabin reduced the full mode network, 0:36:14.480 --> 0:36:18.719 they need allow the electromoty field to expand and and 0:36:18.880 --> 0:36:22.480 that's how do you explain why in Burning Man everybody 0:36:22.640 --> 0:36:26.719 experiences incredible telepathic synchronicity. People you want to meet, people 0:36:26.719 --> 0:36:29.520 don't want to meet that it's incredible. How you know? 0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:33.880 My idea is that fifty people or sixty to eighty 0:36:34.320 --> 0:36:39.760 people with reduced the full mode network create these energetic 0:36:39.880 --> 0:36:43.240 highways where people can tap into and make things happen. 0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:46.960 I mean, sounds reasonable to me. I will admit that 0:36:47.160 --> 0:36:49.839 I sometimes spent a lot less time thinking about how 0:36:49.960 --> 0:36:53.480 this actually happens or why, or the sciences. In all 0:36:53.560 --> 0:36:56.479 my studies and work on drug policy, I've typically looked 0:36:56.520 --> 0:36:59.080 at the science or the explanations for what's going on 0:36:59.320 --> 0:37:01.680 and the role the brain, and I say, okay, that's 0:37:01.719 --> 0:37:03.600 for other people to kind of dumb down for me 0:37:03.719 --> 0:37:06.759 and explain. But in terms of why, and then also why, 0:37:06.880 --> 0:37:09.719 I awuaska, I mean, you know, it has more of 0:37:09.719 --> 0:37:12.520 a reputation for the telepathic experience then does I think 0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:14.480 most of the other psychedelics. I mean, the other ones 0:37:14.560 --> 0:37:17.480 have their stories as well, but there seems to be 0:37:17.600 --> 0:37:20.480 something special going on there and maybe it's what you 0:37:20.560 --> 0:37:23.279 described in Carlisle. I don't I don't know. Yeah, I 0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:25.600 mean for me i Awaska. Yeah, my wife and I 0:37:25.719 --> 0:37:28.120 wed the seven Years practice where we drank it maybe 0:37:28.160 --> 0:37:31.719 five hundred times. You know we where we I mean, 0:37:31.800 --> 0:37:34.759 it's no secret we've been very public about our addictions 0:37:34.800 --> 0:37:38.320 in the past, and you know, we definitely, definitely definitely 0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:42.279 credit ayahuasca. If you know, if we're still together, and 0:37:42.840 --> 0:37:44.439 you know, it was like maybe two or three times 0:37:44.480 --> 0:37:46.320 of years we will go to retreat. There was like 0:37:46.400 --> 0:37:49.680 a couple of shamans we would work with and and 0:37:49.840 --> 0:37:52.400 and you know, we had a lot of reconditioning to do. 0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:56.560 We were both um you know, in the grip of 0:37:56.600 --> 0:38:00.600 addiction and and it helps us a lot. So you know, 0:38:00.719 --> 0:38:03.800 sometimes when you do this gratitude exercise when you have 0:38:03.880 --> 0:38:08.800 to think about event that you know, they have to 0:38:08.880 --> 0:38:12.520 think event when you're that you felt really grateful and 0:38:12.920 --> 0:38:16.120 memory of the mornings after Nyawaska when you keep on 0:38:16.280 --> 0:38:20.400 coming back, when you're really heart open and really connected 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:23.960 and you see this incredible sunrise and the nature and 0:38:24.920 --> 0:38:28.920 it's it's incredible. Well, you know it's funny, I mean, 0:38:28.920 --> 0:38:30.680 because this goes back to you and I'm meeting right 0:38:30.719 --> 0:38:33.840 at the first World Ayahuaska Congress and I think it 0:38:33.920 --> 0:38:37.000 was two thousand fourteen on the island of Vidisa, where 0:38:37.000 --> 0:38:38.920 you're now living. And I remember you. I think you 0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:42.000 were showing a film there and you and I kind 0:38:42.040 --> 0:38:44.040 of hit it off. And I remember also seeing a 0:38:44.080 --> 0:38:49.319 really interesting film there um with Gabor Mate, the Jungle Prescription. Yeah, 0:38:49.320 --> 0:38:50.960 and I guess, but it's one where he was working 0:38:51.080 --> 0:38:53.840 with people who were like engaged in the harmyduction program 0:38:53.960 --> 0:38:57.160 or needle exchange program in Vancouver. So people think about, oh, 0:38:57.200 --> 0:38:59.040 this is just for the wealthy or this and that, 0:38:59.520 --> 0:39:02.160 but it's act he was. I think I thought it 0:39:02.239 --> 0:39:04.759 might have been Aowaska if I remember correctly, with people 0:39:04.840 --> 0:39:08.320 who were really had been struggling with serious addiction. You know. So, 0:39:08.960 --> 0:39:11.719 I mean, I think the potential I mean obviously not 0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:14.400 just the Aawaska, but obviously it's still a cyber and 0:39:14.600 --> 0:39:16.560 d m A and a whole range of others for 0:39:16.680 --> 0:39:20.120 helping people have struggled with addiction and PTSD. I mean, 0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:21.960 you know, well, I mean everybody's reading about what's going 0:39:22.000 --> 0:39:24.719 on now in terms of scientific research. For me, it 0:39:24.800 --> 0:39:28.040 makes sense. I know you're not that interested on the neuroscience, 0:39:28.080 --> 0:39:32.560 but you know, when when the ego is reduced because 0:39:32.640 --> 0:39:35.160 suffering comes from this idea of the ego. If if 0:39:35.239 --> 0:39:37.840 you if the ego is subdued, you can associate the 0:39:37.920 --> 0:39:42.640 painful memory, You can detach the painful memory with the emotion. 0:39:43.440 --> 0:39:46.680 So so the addict too has in this loop of pain, 0:39:47.400 --> 0:39:51.840 can as the opportunity of detaching the pain from the memory. 0:39:52.400 --> 0:39:58.080 So the abusive parents, the childhood trauma becomes visible without 0:39:58.160 --> 0:40:01.759 the pain, so you can transcend them. I mean, for sure, 0:40:02.320 --> 0:40:06.000 these compounds are revolutionized in psychiatry. For sure. This is 0:40:06.160 --> 0:40:07.960 this yeah. I mean, just being down at this conference 0:40:08.000 --> 0:40:10.319 in Miami and just seeing the presentations and of course 0:40:10.320 --> 0:40:13.239 following the literature, it's extraordinary was coming out. I mean, 0:40:13.440 --> 0:40:16.200 I mean, I mean, whether it actually, you know, seriously 0:40:16.280 --> 0:40:20.400 undermine some of the pharmaceutical industry with their daily medications 0:40:20.440 --> 0:40:22.839 for depression and anxiety, all these other sorts of things, 0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:24.560 it would be great. I mean, we have to be 0:40:24.640 --> 0:40:27.120 careful because there will be abuses, there will be problems, 0:40:27.200 --> 0:40:29.480 people are over selling and all this sort of stuff. 0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:32.400 But I think we're starting off in mostly the right 0:40:32.480 --> 0:40:35.520 place with people looking at this um, how do we 0:40:35.640 --> 0:40:39.480 be responsible about this? And hopefully stupidity and greed will 0:40:39.560 --> 0:40:43.120 not undermine the progress. So so let's talk about that 0:40:43.239 --> 0:40:44.640 for a second. I wanted to keep it on the 0:40:44.719 --> 0:40:48.240 personal experience, but but since we're talking about the medicalization. 0:40:48.560 --> 0:40:52.520 So one of the risks of the of this big 0:40:52.600 --> 0:40:58.560 company is that you know, you can't integration is not scalable. 0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:03.399 So in a capital stic environment where psychedelic company will 0:41:03.520 --> 0:41:09.160 compete for customers, the temptation to cut corners in things 0:41:09.239 --> 0:41:12.319 like the integration. For example, if you you know it's 0:41:12.360 --> 0:41:16.360 going to be cheaper if you have a psychedelic assists 0:41:16.360 --> 0:41:20.960 psychotherapy just for two hours instead of six for the integration. 0:41:21.840 --> 0:41:25.080 So it's it's it's very difficult to you know, we'll 0:41:25.120 --> 0:41:27.319 see how this thing plays out, but we do well. 0:41:27.400 --> 0:41:29.440 I mean, look what's going on with Academy now right. 0:41:29.600 --> 0:41:32.920 You have some very smart and responsible people who are 0:41:33.000 --> 0:41:37.480 doing kedemy, providing kenemine and doing it with proper integration thereafter. 0:41:37.960 --> 0:41:39.840 You know, I think people should look at the website 0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:42.000 of Phil Wolfson, who is one of the godfathers of 0:41:42.080 --> 0:41:44.640 the kenemine therapy, and I've bet a bunch of others 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:47.120 of late I see these popping all up. But then 0:41:47.920 --> 0:41:49.960 he also run into people who are you know, some 0:41:50.200 --> 0:41:53.080 anesthesiologists or something else who just sees an opportunity to 0:41:53.120 --> 0:41:55.239 make more money and they can get paid a lot 0:41:55.320 --> 0:41:58.680 of money for you know, administering the very expensive version 0:41:58.719 --> 0:42:01.160 of Kenemine that the insurance companies will pay for, even 0:42:01.200 --> 0:42:04.279 though ketteman actually is a very inexpensive drug, and they're 0:42:04.320 --> 0:42:07.280 doing it in a kind of glary lights medical environment. 0:42:07.560 --> 0:42:09.200 Maybe you put the ice shades on, but you come 0:42:09.239 --> 0:42:12.120 out of it. There's not serious integration. So I mean, 0:42:12.239 --> 0:42:14.960 Kennemane gives us and it's short acting, which fits the 0:42:15.080 --> 0:42:18.520 kind of capitalist you know, short amount of time model, 0:42:19.120 --> 0:42:21.200 but kenna means an opportunity to try to get this 0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:25.160 thing right. Um, hopefully we can, uh you know the 0:42:25.200 --> 0:42:27.560 other question, of course, I mean maybe this is just 0:42:27.680 --> 0:42:32.800 perhaps too ambitious. But because the role of the importance 0:42:32.880 --> 0:42:36.279 integration is so important after an experience, and because that 0:42:36.360 --> 0:42:38.759 can also be done in a group setting, you know, 0:42:38.960 --> 0:42:41.920 it begins to present the idea of this encouraging more 0:42:41.960 --> 0:42:45.160 of a group model for this, and I know, you 0:42:45.239 --> 0:42:47.320 know you think about Look one of the upsides of 0:42:47.360 --> 0:42:49.520 the twelve Steps program. I mean, they don't have a 0:42:49.600 --> 0:42:52.279 very high success rate. They have lots of problems but 0:42:52.400 --> 0:42:55.560 they do offer a sense of community for people, which 0:42:55.680 --> 0:42:59.160 is really pivotal. And just in the last week, I've 0:42:59.200 --> 0:43:02.680 heard about three different people and organizations trying to do 0:43:02.960 --> 0:43:07.600 online UM either integration of psycholic experiences or alternately working 0:43:07.640 --> 0:43:10.560 with people struggling with addiction, where they're creating not just 0:43:10.719 --> 0:43:13.360 one on one sessions, but also group sessions. You know, 0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:15.879 one of the silver lines of COVID was it forced 0:43:15.920 --> 0:43:18.400 so much of this stuff to move online where you 0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:22.080 can dramatically reduce costs and it allows people to be 0:43:22.200 --> 0:43:25.480 in a group environment to oftentimes maintain some degree of 0:43:25.560 --> 0:43:30.320 anonymity and comfort UM, but where that community can be 0:43:30.920 --> 0:43:33.160 you know, created, And if you then look at some 0:43:33.239 --> 0:43:37.840 of the potentials around virtual reality of making a community 0:43:38.440 --> 0:43:41.080 you know, feel more intimate than it currently does over 0:43:41.120 --> 0:43:44.080 the internet, but at a much lower cost in terms 0:43:44.120 --> 0:43:46.840 of people having to travel to one place to be somewhere. 0:43:47.360 --> 0:43:50.200 You know, there are some promising things on the horizon. 0:43:50.440 --> 0:43:52.440 So I think a lot of good stuff is going 0:43:52.480 --> 0:43:54.960 to emerge, but there's no way to get rid of 0:43:55.080 --> 0:43:58.480 all the scoundrels in this. But so since let's go 0:43:58.560 --> 0:44:02.680 back to the personal experience the UM. What's your personal 0:44:02.719 --> 0:44:05.560 experience with not I haven't had a lot of it, um, 0:44:05.880 --> 0:44:09.040 but I will say um uh there were two uh 0:44:09.320 --> 0:44:12.760 one some years ago there was a fellow named Sean Haley. 0:44:12.960 --> 0:44:15.239 Did you know Sean Haley at all? Sean, I made 0:44:15.280 --> 0:44:18.440 a lot of money, um, you know Silicon Valley, an 0:44:18.520 --> 0:44:22.680 unusual guy. Um. And then he started experimenting with um 0:44:23.160 --> 0:44:25.600 sort of drug concoctions um. And he was trying to 0:44:25.680 --> 0:44:28.360 deal with his own lifelong depression. And he came up 0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:31.319 with a combination of high dose a Cademy high dose 0:44:31.680 --> 0:44:34.959 d MT low dos kedemine and he began going around 0:44:34.960 --> 0:44:38.399 administering these two friends. And so I did that once 0:44:39.080 --> 0:44:43.120 and that was like like a rocket, you know, and 0:44:43.200 --> 0:44:45.399 I mean for forty five minutes, but almost thought about 0:44:45.400 --> 0:44:47.360 it was almost like a cliff Notes version of a 0:44:47.719 --> 0:44:50.239 of of a of a mushroom experience or something clip. 0:44:50.360 --> 0:44:52.399 So what what what was that dose? It? I don't 0:44:52.440 --> 0:44:54.200 know the actual doors. All I know is the d 0:44:54.360 --> 0:44:57.000 m T was a high dose smoke. Actually it was 0:44:57.560 --> 0:45:00.800 with a needle where intramuscular why a little jab in 0:45:00.840 --> 0:45:02.920 the butt cheek um. And I had told him that 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:05.840 Sasha Shulguns called called said I was a hardhead. So 0:45:05.920 --> 0:45:08.360 I need an extra dose, so he gave me two shots. 0:45:08.440 --> 0:45:11.040 So it was like a rocket taken off. But then 0:45:11.080 --> 0:45:14.759 after forty five minutes, it was like parachute opens and 0:45:14.840 --> 0:45:16.719 I'm kind of come floating down to earth and I 0:45:16.800 --> 0:45:18.800 stand up. My legs are kind of wobbly from the 0:45:18.880 --> 0:45:21.080 kenemine And a few hours later, I'm going out to 0:45:21.160 --> 0:45:23.600 dinner in a movie, right, so you know, and I 0:45:23.640 --> 0:45:27.000 would say afterwards, for weeks afterwards, I felt like my 0:45:27.160 --> 0:45:31.719 mood was slightly elevated, my sexuality seemed slightly depressed, and 0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:35.000 there was this funny little humming feeling in my forehead 0:45:35.280 --> 0:45:37.919 which wasn't bothers him, but it was just kind of there. 0:45:38.520 --> 0:45:41.800 And so that was one experience. The other one was 0:45:42.040 --> 0:45:44.680 last year a friend of mine who is herself a 0:45:44.760 --> 0:45:48.560 kenemine therapist. UM I did it with her at her 0:45:48.600 --> 0:45:51.600 home and she was there taking here of the music 0:45:51.800 --> 0:45:54.040 and you know a little notebook in case any notes. 0:45:54.120 --> 0:45:56.560 And total was my first time doing a real blindfold, 0:45:57.239 --> 0:46:00.280 and I did it with dissolving a couple of abs 0:46:00.320 --> 0:46:03.800 under my tongue. I realized in retrospect it might have 0:46:03.840 --> 0:46:06.080 been a lot smoother just to do the intramuscular but 0:46:06.200 --> 0:46:10.800 she didn't have that available, and and I was surprised 0:46:11.680 --> 0:46:15.160 how how profound it was, you know, I mean it 0:46:15.360 --> 0:46:17.480 was first of all, I mean, I mean, there was 0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:19.879 I won't go into the longer story, but the key 0:46:20.000 --> 0:46:22.759 thing was there was one moment um where I had 0:46:22.880 --> 0:46:26.719 kind of turned over onto my belly and uh um 0:46:27.400 --> 0:46:30.880 and and and I was almost entering into almost like 0:46:30.960 --> 0:46:35.920 this avatar like environment. And I was underneath like in 0:46:36.040 --> 0:46:38.880 some water, like in a swamp or a lake, and 0:46:39.000 --> 0:46:42.759 it's dark, and I'm thinking, you know, I'm underwater, I 0:46:42.880 --> 0:46:46.600 can't breathe. And then I go, but I'm breathing. And 0:46:46.719 --> 0:46:49.520 then I'm going, it's dark. I can't see anything. This 0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:52.120 is this should be scary. There could be snakes, and 0:46:52.160 --> 0:46:56.120 I realized I'm not scared, and I just keep moving forward. 0:46:56.560 --> 0:46:58.839 And also I go, oh my god, I could pass 0:46:58.920 --> 0:47:01.560 through death like this. And it was the first and 0:47:01.719 --> 0:47:05.520 only time I've had that kind of sensation. And I 0:47:05.719 --> 0:47:08.320 was taking with how gentle it was and only lasted 0:47:08.400 --> 0:47:10.800 for an hour or something like that, but it was 0:47:11.120 --> 0:47:14.360 very gentle. It was even with the high dose mushrooms. 0:47:14.600 --> 0:47:18.760 I hadn't kind of had that, you know, UM escaped 0:47:18.760 --> 0:47:21.080 from the body. But with that ketemy, which I think 0:47:21.120 --> 0:47:22.800 relatively high dose. I don't know what it was, but 0:47:23.360 --> 0:47:25.879 I was told it was a relatively high dose. Yeah, 0:47:25.920 --> 0:47:28.640 I really felt like I kind of left my body 0:47:28.719 --> 0:47:30.560 in a way, or I was sort of in and 0:47:30.640 --> 0:47:34.320 out of it. But in this you know, avatar place 0:47:34.480 --> 0:47:37.000 that turned out to be scary but beautiful. Well, yeah, 0:47:37.200 --> 0:47:42.080 like I also had not very meaningful experience. I mean, 0:47:42.840 --> 0:47:45.320 probably not with the right set of set set and settings. 0:47:45.719 --> 0:47:48.040 But actually, yesterday I met a friend who did the 0:47:48.280 --> 0:47:51.480 full three injection in a cleaning here in New York, 0:47:52.120 --> 0:47:53.200 and he said it was the most a bit of 0:47:53.239 --> 0:47:56.320 experience with his life. It was like a heavenly experience. 0:47:56.360 --> 0:48:00.000 It felt it felt heaven. He felt it like abounded compassion, 0:48:00.000 --> 0:48:05.239 stion and and and and this incredible sense of of 0:48:05.640 --> 0:48:10.040 of of abundant compassion and love and sounds amazing. Well, 0:48:10.040 --> 0:48:11.520 I mean you also see him now that it's been 0:48:11.600 --> 0:48:16.120 approved for you know, management of intractable depression, I mean, 0:48:16.239 --> 0:48:19.479 that's very promising. And the fact that you know, until 0:48:19.520 --> 0:48:21.880 a few months ago, it was the only psychedelic that 0:48:22.000 --> 0:48:24.640 the National Student Drug Abuse would give any grants for 0:48:24.760 --> 0:48:28.360 it to research for treating addiction. UM. On my podcast, 0:48:28.480 --> 0:48:32.640 I interviewed a fellow alias Dakwar, professor of Columbia who's 0:48:32.680 --> 0:48:36.480 using a combination of ketamine and mindfulness meditation to treat 0:48:36.600 --> 0:48:39.759 addiction and depression. And so I just think it really 0:48:39.800 --> 0:48:44.120 has enormous potential, and I hope it doesn't get corrupted 0:48:44.160 --> 0:48:46.880 and get a bad reputation because of people being reckless 0:48:46.960 --> 0:48:50.120 and stupid with it. But why do you think I 0:48:50.200 --> 0:48:54.839 meany scheduled three and having scheduled one. Probably first of all, 0:48:54.960 --> 0:48:58.239 the fact that it already had extensive use both UM 0:48:58.360 --> 0:49:03.000 in emergency medicine and wartime medicine and veterinary medicine meant 0:49:03.040 --> 0:49:06.040 that people were already familiar with it. They've been administering 0:49:06.080 --> 0:49:08.759 it to human beings for a very long time. So 0:49:08.880 --> 0:49:12.080 I think that helped make people, you know, feel okay 0:49:12.120 --> 0:49:14.800 about it. I think secondly, the fact that it's relatively 0:49:14.880 --> 0:49:19.520 short acting UM maybe maybe a thing about it. Uh. Thirdly, 0:49:19.680 --> 0:49:21.439 maybe a lower people A lot of people are taking 0:49:21.560 --> 0:49:24.439 lower doses where the kind of psychedelic effect was seen 0:49:24.480 --> 0:49:27.239 as a kind of negative, you know, side effect or 0:49:27.280 --> 0:49:29.560 something like that. But you were dealing with people dealing 0:49:29.719 --> 0:49:32.919 you know, you know, emergency responders who were in parts 0:49:32.960 --> 0:49:34.720 of the kind of world where they don't have opioids 0:49:34.719 --> 0:49:38.120 available using ketamine, or people in the battlefield. So I 0:49:38.239 --> 0:49:40.080 think for all sorts of reasons it kind of got 0:49:40.160 --> 0:49:42.560 in there were tolerated with the psychedelic side was seen 0:49:42.600 --> 0:49:46.320 as just negative side effects, um, whereas these other things. 0:49:46.560 --> 0:49:49.000 And it also did not start off becoming popular in 0:49:49.040 --> 0:49:51.520 the underground. It wasn't It wasn't a creator. Yeah, I 0:49:51.560 --> 0:49:54.040 mean allstie. You know, I had a early history in 0:49:54.040 --> 0:49:56.840 the fifties early sixties before he got popularized by Timothy 0:49:56.920 --> 0:49:59.560 Leary and others. Um, But mushrooms have always had that 0:49:59.600 --> 0:50:03.520 REQUI anational side to it, so uh, you know. And 0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:05.600 I don't think there were really news reports the people 0:50:05.719 --> 0:50:08.960 jumping off balconies or you know, that kind of thing. 0:50:09.120 --> 0:50:11.520 So I think we're lucky in that regard that it 0:50:11.600 --> 0:50:14.360 actually was able to get get through. What about some pedro, 0:50:14.680 --> 0:50:16.960 did you have an experience? I've never done something pedro. 0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:19.360 I've never done peyote. You know, maybe that was in 0:50:19.440 --> 0:50:23.840 my future. Uh, what about you? So I've done it? 0:50:24.120 --> 0:50:26.719 Sometimes some shalman will give it to you in the 0:50:26.840 --> 0:50:30.000 morning after then Ayahuaska session to to open your heart 0:50:30.160 --> 0:50:32.160 to like too easy A little bit in the in 0:50:32.239 --> 0:50:36.600 the in the post ayahuasca um I never but but 0:50:36.880 --> 0:50:41.640 recently Nibiza, I did the full on two liters. They 0:50:41.719 --> 0:50:44.440 give you this this I can't remember which tradition is it, 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:47.800 but where you have the old plant, not just the 0:50:48.520 --> 0:50:52.000 not just the button. I think, no, that's that's anyway. 0:50:52.000 --> 0:50:54.759 It was a type of It was very diluted by 0:50:55.280 --> 0:50:57.440 a lot like you drink this like two litter. You 0:50:57.520 --> 0:51:00.200 keep on drink and drink and drinking. And and it 0:51:00.320 --> 0:51:03.400 was it was you know they always say that, you know, 0:51:03.520 --> 0:51:06.239 the first session is a bit disorienting, and then the 0:51:06.320 --> 0:51:09.839 second time you find your bearing. It was a combination 0:51:10.120 --> 0:51:16.759 of of of LSD and there was something really unusual 0:51:16.880 --> 0:51:21.640 about about it. Then the guy let us going free, 0:51:21.800 --> 0:51:24.800 actually encouraged us to go and walk around, and and 0:51:24.840 --> 0:51:27.439 I remember I was sitting there very confused. I would 0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:31.520 have had this image of of of of some big 0:51:31.719 --> 0:51:35.600 leadies from Louisiana. I don't know. I was really disoriented. 0:51:35.640 --> 0:51:37.839 And so this other person will come by and say, 0:51:37.960 --> 0:51:42.960 remember this is a cactus that it's very hard because 0:51:43.080 --> 0:51:44.840 it lives in the desert. But then there is a 0:51:44.920 --> 0:51:50.200 flower and so that that that comment turned my trip 0:51:50.280 --> 0:51:54.239 into something a little bit more beautiful. But I'm not 0:51:54.360 --> 0:51:57.560 friend with the San Pedro yet. Yeah, you know, I 0:51:57.760 --> 0:51:59.840 learned a lot. You know. I had Michael Power on 0:51:59.920 --> 0:52:02.919 my podcast a few months ago, and his latest book, 0:52:03.000 --> 0:52:05.920 one of the big chapters is on mescaline and and 0:52:06.360 --> 0:52:08.920 he finds it a very powerful experience. I think he 0:52:08.960 --> 0:52:11.719 also makes an important point that, you know, given how 0:52:11.840 --> 0:52:14.680 limited peyote is, and given that there's a really highly 0:52:14.760 --> 0:52:17.480 respected indigenous use of this in a Native American church, 0:52:17.880 --> 0:52:21.480 then unless somebody is specifically invited in by that community 0:52:21.480 --> 0:52:25.040 to do it, that buying large people outside that community 0:52:25.280 --> 0:52:28.400 should generally, you know, not take advantage of used peyote 0:52:28.480 --> 0:52:30.080 that you can get more or less the same thing 0:52:30.200 --> 0:52:33.600 from San Pedro. I mean, it is essentially mescalin as well, 0:52:34.239 --> 0:52:37.279 and do that. Um so I I think I will. 0:52:38.320 --> 0:52:41.480 I'm curious to try Son Pedro and to try mescalind 0:52:41.480 --> 0:52:45.200 I only I only did mescalind once. Um and uh, 0:52:45.600 --> 0:52:48.680 you know, but for me it was something between a 0:52:48.800 --> 0:52:51.080 mushroom and and LSD experience. I don't know if it 0:52:51.200 --> 0:52:55.120 was all that distinctive. Um, it was powerful, you know. Um, 0:52:55.760 --> 0:53:00.439 what about five d MT the toad from the Sonora Desert. Well, 0:53:00.680 --> 0:53:02.960 you know, I'll tell you a friend of mine said, 0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:04.560 I was kind of scared to do it. You know, 0:53:04.600 --> 0:53:06.680 where you smoke it in fifteen minutes, and you know, 0:53:06.800 --> 0:53:09.320 can seem like you know, you know ages and and 0:53:09.520 --> 0:53:11.799 people's you know, you know, with everything, you know, all 0:53:11.840 --> 0:53:13.640 the experiences you hear about the five m O d 0:53:13.760 --> 0:53:15.800 m T, whether it's the toad medicine or the synthetic. 0:53:15.960 --> 0:53:18.840 And you know, people you can argue about whether the 0:53:19.000 --> 0:53:21.400 you know the specialness of the toad medicine as opposed 0:53:21.440 --> 0:53:23.200 to the synthetic, and I get their point about it. 0:53:23.520 --> 0:53:26.560 But anyway, this friend of mine, um, you know, I said, okay, 0:53:26.560 --> 0:53:29.399 I'm ready, and he says, I actually think I'm sorry. 0:53:29.440 --> 0:53:33.920 I'm out of the smokable type. Um uh, all I 0:53:34.080 --> 0:53:36.719 have is some snortable five mm e O d m T. 0:53:36.880 --> 0:53:39.080 I don't know if it's toad from the toad or synthetic. 0:53:39.920 --> 0:53:41.759 And like, you know, I've never been a cocaine or 0:53:41.800 --> 0:53:43.640 only snort things. But he goes, yeah, and he put 0:53:43.680 --> 0:53:47.160 out too long white lines of this stuff, and I said, 0:53:47.200 --> 0:53:48.520 how long do you think it will last? He goes, why, 0:53:48.520 --> 0:53:50.120 don't have how much experience with it, but you know, 0:53:50.239 --> 0:53:54.120 maybe half hour or so. So I snort these two lines, right, 0:53:54.200 --> 0:53:56.000 And I trusted him because he's got a huge amount 0:53:56.000 --> 0:53:58.320 of experience as a guy. And first of all, it 0:53:58.600 --> 0:54:01.520 burned like hell, I mean really burned, like in my 0:54:02.040 --> 0:54:04.360 scientist you know, cavities and all that sort of stuff. 0:54:04.480 --> 0:54:07.840 And finally it's settled down. But I'll tell you five 0:54:08.040 --> 0:54:11.160 hours later, like I'm lying down there. I mean, I'm 0:54:11.200 --> 0:54:13.160 I'm sort of still in my body. I don't go 0:54:13.280 --> 0:54:15.320 through the ego dissolution or whatever that is, you know, 0:54:15.440 --> 0:54:17.759 but it was like a kind of different version of 0:54:17.840 --> 0:54:20.680 a mushroom trip. At one point, my energy is shooting 0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:23.120 out of my legs. I mean, I mean afterwards, you know, 0:54:23.239 --> 0:54:25.560 my host said, you know, were you doing candalini exercises? 0:54:25.600 --> 0:54:27.600 I said, like, what's contalini? You know, I don't what 0:54:28.000 --> 0:54:29.160 you may not know what it is, but you were 0:54:29.200 --> 0:54:31.239 looking like you were doing it right there. And then 0:54:31.480 --> 0:54:34.719 literally five hours later, I'm coming out of it and 0:54:34.800 --> 0:54:36.719 I get up to talk to my friends and I 0:54:36.840 --> 0:54:43.560 sound like what I could not I actually pronounced my words, 0:54:44.120 --> 0:54:46.319 and I was until the next morning that I could 0:54:46.400 --> 0:54:49.960 actually get out like talk normally again. And even then 0:54:50.040 --> 0:54:51.719 I felt like I had to drive back to another 0:54:51.760 --> 0:54:54.359 friend's house. I felt disoriented in terms of I could 0:54:54.400 --> 0:54:57.319 drive safely, but where I was was kind of been down. 0:54:57.800 --> 0:55:02.239 So it was a strange and u experience. And and 0:55:02.440 --> 0:55:06.440 I don't know that this is about about four years ago. Um, 0:55:07.400 --> 0:55:09.239 I don't know what to say about it. Really. I 0:55:09.400 --> 0:55:11.800 do think I need to try the fift you know, 0:55:11.880 --> 0:55:15.600 smokeable version and try to telling medicine. Um. That sounds 0:55:15.640 --> 0:55:18.120 like people have described wonderful things about it, but some 0:55:18.239 --> 0:55:20.920 people say it's taken them a good weeks or month 0:55:21.120 --> 0:55:24.080 to fully get back to some form of yes. Yes. 0:55:24.560 --> 0:55:26.520 For me, it was one of the most beautiful experience 0:55:26.600 --> 0:55:29.080 of my life. And I did it in the perfect 0:55:29.120 --> 0:55:33.080 condition because you know, we have a man group. It's 0:55:33.120 --> 0:55:36.360 ten of us. Every year we spent five days mostly 0:55:36.440 --> 0:55:40.640 during Ayahuaska during the day as a personal experience, but 0:55:40.719 --> 0:55:44.320 also as a collective. We would then share and and 0:55:44.520 --> 0:55:47.000 so at the end of day five, when we already 0:55:47.040 --> 0:55:50.840 have this strong morpho genetic field of of of you know, 0:55:51.000 --> 0:55:54.239 support of our friends, then we did we did this. 0:55:54.719 --> 0:55:57.920 We smoked the toad and and you feel very safe. 0:55:58.120 --> 0:56:00.680 It was like in a temple in England. Then it's 0:56:00.719 --> 0:56:02.360 like if I don't do it now, I don't know 0:56:02.440 --> 0:56:03.800 what I'm gonna do it. We were, you know, we 0:56:03.880 --> 0:56:05.960 were like five days working together. There was all this 0:56:06.160 --> 0:56:09.360 strong bond and it was it was it was like 0:56:10.440 --> 0:56:14.400 one of us says, touching the heart of God, you 0:56:14.600 --> 0:56:18.680 felt really catapulted in heaven, in this blue light where 0:56:19.280 --> 0:56:23.239 you have this sense of forgiveness and compassion and the 0:56:23.360 --> 0:56:27.920 closest thing to happen. Wow. Wow, I look forward to it. 0:56:28.080 --> 0:56:30.320 It's funny. At this conference and I was said in Miami, 0:56:30.440 --> 0:56:33.640 Mike Tyson was there and just singing the praises of 0:56:33.760 --> 0:56:36.360 the toad medicine. You know, I've heard other people just 0:56:36.440 --> 0:56:39.200 talking about how for them that's gonna they feel it's 0:56:39.200 --> 0:56:41.359 going to be their go to substance for the rest 0:56:41.400 --> 0:56:43.239 of their lives. We'll try the other ones and whatever, 0:56:43.320 --> 0:56:45.560 they'll do them, but that five m e oh is 0:56:45.640 --> 0:56:48.640 the one that really spoke to him. It's funny because 0:56:49.160 --> 0:56:55.200 I don't really feel the need to revisit that. It's interesting, 0:56:55.320 --> 0:56:57.320 you know, I would, I would do other things, but 0:56:57.440 --> 0:57:02.040 that's so precious. I don't know, So why don't we 0:57:02.200 --> 0:57:05.600 conclude with them with normal D empty except the couple 0:57:05.680 --> 0:57:07.840 of injection you had. Did you ever had the smoke? 0:57:08.200 --> 0:57:10.640 NORMALM No? I mean actually the one we could talk 0:57:10.640 --> 0:57:15.239 about is two C B. Yeah, because um, that was 0:57:15.320 --> 0:57:16.440 when I thought I was gonna do it a few 0:57:16.440 --> 0:57:18.160 weeks ago, but it turned out not to happen. But 0:57:19.120 --> 0:57:24.160 I did it a number of times about twenty years 0:57:24.200 --> 0:57:28.880 ago or so. Um and uh. The funny thing about 0:57:29.080 --> 0:57:33.200 about to ce bit is is the kind of um 0:57:33.480 --> 0:57:37.120 odd impact in terms of drugs set and setting that 0:57:37.440 --> 0:57:40.880 the book by Sasha and Shilgin Peakal. You know their books, 0:57:40.880 --> 0:57:43.280 Pet Peakal fin Athletes, I Don't in Love. There's a 0:57:43.360 --> 0:57:47.840 little section there about two C B and and describes 0:57:48.000 --> 0:57:51.200 the experience under whose pseudonym of taking the two C 0:57:51.400 --> 0:57:58.560 B and lapsing into the most devastating self critical ego 0:57:58.800 --> 0:58:03.400 wipe outing, horrible, feel terrible about yourself. I mean, just 0:58:04.000 --> 0:58:08.560 just a nightmarish experience and just wallowing and not knowing 0:58:08.720 --> 0:58:13.680 what to do. And then Sasha or pseudonym appears at 0:58:13.720 --> 0:58:18.880 the door and this beaming light emerges and the thing 0:58:19.000 --> 0:58:22.040 begins to transform. And the next thing that happens is 0:58:22.160 --> 0:58:25.960 she is having the most multi orgasmic experience with him 0:58:26.280 --> 0:58:29.440 that she that she's ever had. And and so you 0:58:29.560 --> 0:58:33.120 read that and you go, okay, like multi orgasmic experience, 0:58:33.200 --> 0:58:36.640 let's let's do it, right, um. But in point of fact, 0:58:36.880 --> 0:58:39.440 I mean, I'll tell you, I mean this is actually 0:58:39.960 --> 0:58:43.400 after my marriage, I met this beautiful woman a journalists 0:58:43.400 --> 0:58:45.480 American journalists have grown up in Europe. It was in 0:58:45.600 --> 0:58:50.240 Paris in the early mid nineties. And I went back 0:58:50.280 --> 0:58:52.880 to visit her about a month later, and and we 0:58:53.000 --> 0:58:55.720 did M D M A together and it was beautiful. 0:58:55.760 --> 0:58:57.840 And she lived near the Plus Devotion in Paris and 0:58:58.000 --> 0:59:01.360 an old you know building the air that had been modernized. 0:59:01.400 --> 0:59:03.040 And but I remember we went out and everything was 0:59:03.200 --> 0:59:06.360 gorgeous and beautiful, and and we came back and we 0:59:06.400 --> 0:59:08.840 were in the vegetable of her apartment building, like you 0:59:08.880 --> 0:59:11.080 know how somebody want to stand on corners, like people 0:59:11.160 --> 0:59:13.000 won't go stand on a shell from me. I was 0:59:13.080 --> 0:59:15.400 doing this stuff, filling up the space, and then we 0:59:15.440 --> 0:59:18.200 went upstairs. It was just loving and beautiful and all this, 0:59:18.440 --> 0:59:20.960 you know, it's just great. Anyway, two days later, I said, 0:59:21.040 --> 0:59:23.920 let's try the two CV. So we do the two CB. 0:59:24.480 --> 0:59:28.160 We retrace our steps right and it's like, what's this? 0:59:28.680 --> 0:59:31.720 And God, that needs to be fixed and that's that. 0:59:32.120 --> 0:59:34.680 And it was this kind of critical mode and I 0:59:34.840 --> 0:59:37.920 realized it was this critical you know, like and then 0:59:38.080 --> 0:59:39.640 and then we finally come back and I look at 0:59:39.680 --> 0:59:42.600 the vegetable which looks so marvelous under you know, M 0:59:42.640 --> 0:59:44.200 D M A, and I'm going, who are designed it? 0:59:44.280 --> 0:59:46.800 You know? And then we go upstairs, um, and we 0:59:46.920 --> 0:59:50.040 started relaxing and we start making love. And I remember 0:59:50.080 --> 0:59:53.400 about the love making was that was that it was 0:59:54.040 --> 0:59:57.160 that that my tactile sense was didn't feel right, it 0:59:57.240 --> 1:00:01.440 felt almost clammy. But that the said, the different sensations 1:00:01.480 --> 1:00:04.240 of sex were almost colorized in a really and so 1:00:04.320 --> 1:00:07.720 there was some depth and specialness to the sexual encounter 1:00:07.840 --> 1:00:11.200 all of that. So that was But I mean, after that, 1:00:11.320 --> 1:00:15.160 I realized, Eathan, don't do two c B with your lover, right, 1:00:15.680 --> 1:00:19.480 this is the drug. Take it by yourself, right. It's 1:00:19.520 --> 1:00:22.040 like doing a lower dose mushroom for me. And when 1:00:22.080 --> 1:00:24.320 you want to kick the ship out of yourself, you know, 1:00:24.720 --> 1:00:27.200 do it that way. And so I did it. One time. 1:00:27.200 --> 1:00:29.160 I was in Venice and I was just broken up 1:00:29.160 --> 1:00:30.840 actually with this woman, and I was you know, I 1:00:30.920 --> 1:00:33.120 was a rainy February day in Venice, and I remember 1:00:33.280 --> 1:00:36.200 just going down, like walking around Venice by myself and 1:00:36.280 --> 1:00:38.240 going to the Jewish ghetto and feel having a very 1:00:38.320 --> 1:00:41.360 spiritual connection with it, the Jewish Ghetto in Venice. And 1:00:41.400 --> 1:00:44.480 then another time back home in New York. I've never 1:00:44.640 --> 1:00:47.520 liked the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and I decided I'm 1:00:47.520 --> 1:00:51.000 gonna examine my prejudices. So I took the two c 1:00:51.200 --> 1:00:54.920 b this girlfriend and given me a pigskin vest. Now 1:00:55.000 --> 1:00:57.040 I still keep kosher, right, so that it felt like 1:00:57.040 --> 1:00:59.479 a little passive aggressive or giving me a pigskin vessel, 1:00:59.760 --> 1:01:03.240 like technically Jews can wear pigskin, right, Um, I put 1:01:03.320 --> 1:01:05.120 the pigskin vest down, I can ready did something else. 1:01:05.160 --> 1:01:07.120 I walked across the park from my where I live 1:01:07.160 --> 1:01:09.120 on the airports side to the museum. I went to 1:01:09.120 --> 1:01:11.800 the museum, which I you know, I don't generally like 1:01:12.800 --> 1:01:16.160 when I would see an exhibit like twelve century medieval tapestries, 1:01:16.200 --> 1:01:18.920 which I would never go to. I go to it, right, 1:01:19.120 --> 1:01:20.920 and it was a little more interesting because the tapestries 1:01:20.960 --> 1:01:22.640 were kind of going up and down the ceiling because 1:01:22.680 --> 1:01:24.920 I was loosening a little bit. But I actually had 1:01:24.960 --> 1:01:27.880 a chance to spend the whole afternoon in the museum 1:01:28.040 --> 1:01:31.480 at the quote unquote Sasha museum level dose, you know, 1:01:31.720 --> 1:01:34.600 beginning to get a feeling about what why did I 1:01:34.720 --> 1:01:37.040 like this place? And what might I like? And and 1:01:37.400 --> 1:01:40.960 with my aesthetic sensibilities were enhanced and so for me 1:01:41.200 --> 1:01:44.800 to see b was really the one for intensive, you know, 1:01:45.000 --> 1:01:49.280 pretty hard nosed, you know, critical self examination. And then 1:01:49.320 --> 1:01:51.760 I kind of lost my source to it, and uh, 1:01:52.120 --> 1:01:54.160 haven't done it in the last couple of decades, but 1:01:54.320 --> 1:01:57.560 I'm definitely keen to try it again. Interesting. Interesting, So 1:01:57.720 --> 1:01:59.479 let me ask you the reason why I was asking 1:01:59.560 --> 1:02:04.240 you d MT s because do you remember ricks Trust 1:02:04.320 --> 1:02:06.160 money in the in the in the eighties, they did 1:02:06.560 --> 1:02:09.720 this clinical trial injecting the MT to a bunch of 1:02:09.800 --> 1:02:13.400 a healthy volunteer I think, and and and basically they 1:02:13.600 --> 1:02:16.760 find some similarities in terms of the entities that the 1:02:16.840 --> 1:02:22.760 volunteer would encounter. And so now the Imperial College accountant 1:02:22.800 --> 1:02:27.040 too much because it's it's still under under. It's it's 1:02:27.040 --> 1:02:32.840 still under They just they just started administrating the trial 1:02:32.960 --> 1:02:36.720 those but they're basing using a I V machine to 1:02:36.880 --> 1:02:40.560 put the volunteer into d MT dose for much longer 1:02:40.640 --> 1:02:44.200 than the ten minutes. And so this idea of of 1:02:44.400 --> 1:02:48.680 the sponsor is that you know, maybe that compound would 1:02:48.720 --> 1:02:55.560 allow access to these beings, that they might be independent 1:02:56.560 --> 1:03:01.160 and sent an independent center, beings that we more time 1:03:01.400 --> 1:03:06.600 you can develop a relationship. And what do you think 1:03:06.600 --> 1:03:09.040 about this? I don't know. I mean, look for me, 1:03:09.480 --> 1:03:12.680 you know the notion of this, you know, as witnessed 1:03:12.680 --> 1:03:14.960 by my experience with very high dose mushrooms or the 1:03:15.040 --> 1:03:18.439 high dose d MT, I don't seem to go through 1:03:18.520 --> 1:03:22.280 this ego dissolution stuff. I seem to retain my sense 1:03:22.400 --> 1:03:24.760 of being present in my body with the exception of 1:03:24.840 --> 1:03:28.040 that brief academy and experience last year. Um. And it 1:03:28.120 --> 1:03:29.360 may be because I haven't really done it with the 1:03:29.360 --> 1:03:33.040 blindfold on, and maybe that might make the difference. Um. 1:03:33.120 --> 1:03:36.520 No entities, not that I can recall. You know, I'm 1:03:36.520 --> 1:03:39.320 not seeing jaguars. I'm not seeing entities. I'm not doing 1:03:39.360 --> 1:03:43.600 that sort of thing. I'm not going through horrifying loss 1:03:43.680 --> 1:03:48.280 of dissolution of identity. UM. I seem to me, it's 1:03:48.440 --> 1:03:52.600 it's this, it's a way of of of of doing 1:03:52.720 --> 1:03:55.720 things to my mind and my body that are just 1:03:56.520 --> 1:03:59.720 just creating new connections and thoughts and things and all 1:03:59.800 --> 1:04:02.600 of this that that that that just feels kind of 1:04:02.800 --> 1:04:06.680 life affirming and once in a while scary and hard. Um. 1:04:07.120 --> 1:04:09.080 But you know, I wonder about that because I hear 1:04:09.080 --> 1:04:10.440 about people go through the e and you know, and 1:04:10.480 --> 1:04:12.520 part of this I think I've always I don't think 1:04:12.600 --> 1:04:14.760 I've lived with much trauma in my life. I mean, 1:04:14.800 --> 1:04:17.040 there's been a few things, you know, but uh, but 1:04:17.280 --> 1:04:19.800 I don't know why that is. And maybe I'm just 1:04:19.920 --> 1:04:23.720 I'm a very grounded person. And so I wonder if 1:04:23.760 --> 1:04:26.600 the day will come when I do high dose hiahuasca 1:04:27.000 --> 1:04:28.840 or d m T in the more pure form or 1:04:28.920 --> 1:04:32.520 something where I actually go through that we'll see. And 1:04:32.680 --> 1:04:35.000 we've been together an hour. You've been so generous with 1:04:35.080 --> 1:04:39.320 your personal story and sharing your your intimate situation. Thank 1:04:39.360 --> 1:04:41.600 you so much. I should also just say, I mean, 1:04:41.640 --> 1:04:43.400 what I also love is the fact that here it 1:04:43.520 --> 1:04:47.280 is in late the world appears to be going in 1:04:47.400 --> 1:04:50.640 some very dangerous and scary places. But one of the 1:04:50.760 --> 1:04:52.680 nice things that's happening is that you and I can 1:04:52.720 --> 1:04:55.560 talk openly about this and do it for other people, 1:04:55.680 --> 1:04:58.240 for strangers to listen to, and to do it without 1:04:58.280 --> 1:05:00.840 real fear, you know, I mean the willing the ability 1:05:00.880 --> 1:05:02.640 of people to be in talking first about their own 1:05:02.640 --> 1:05:05.560 cannabis use a few years ago and now about psychedelic use. 1:05:06.080 --> 1:05:09.600 It's really represents, you know, a transformation or society. There's 1:05:09.640 --> 1:05:12.120 a coming out, not unlike what happened with gay people 1:05:12.240 --> 1:05:15.440 being able to come out over time. And you know, 1:05:15.600 --> 1:05:19.040 I live. I realized there's always the possibility that the 1:05:19.160 --> 1:05:21.760 forces of repression will try to shove this genie back 1:05:21.800 --> 1:05:23.760 in the bottle and try to hurt some of us 1:05:23.840 --> 1:05:25.840 who have spoken out and come out, because we know 1:05:26.000 --> 1:05:29.040 historically those things, these things do go in waves and 1:05:29.160 --> 1:05:32.160 things can go backwards. Um, so I think we need 1:05:32.200 --> 1:05:34.440 to be careful. But you know, I'm you and I 1:05:34.560 --> 1:05:38.080 are both out there speaking openly about these things, and uh, 1:05:38.200 --> 1:05:40.560 you know, none of us. We're all talking about our 1:05:40.600 --> 1:05:43.240 own personal consumption. We're not talking about selling these things 1:05:43.400 --> 1:05:46.000 or making money from them illegally or things like that. 1:05:46.800 --> 1:05:49.600 For me, the podcast has just been a blast because 1:05:49.960 --> 1:05:51.800 I'm having all these wonderful people on. You know, it 1:05:51.880 --> 1:05:54.080 might be Andrew Wild and Michael Pollen, it might be 1:05:54.120 --> 1:05:57.000 the academic doing a cannemine research. It was former you know, 1:05:57.200 --> 1:05:59.520 the U. S. Senator Chuck Schumer, you know, who's the 1:05:59.560 --> 1:06:02.600 majority leader, talking to him about his marijuana legalization bill. 1:06:03.040 --> 1:06:06.240 I had the former president of Colombia, the country Wamali 1:06:06.320 --> 1:06:09.160 Ol Santos, who won the Nobel Peace Prize five years ago. 1:06:09.600 --> 1:06:11.360 I had the head of National Student on Drug Abuse, 1:06:11.480 --> 1:06:13.280 Nora Vocal, who used to run away from me and 1:06:13.320 --> 1:06:16.000 now she's willing to be on my podcast. I've had 1:06:16.080 --> 1:06:20.080 some activists and some brilliant journalists and you know, so 1:06:20.200 --> 1:06:23.160 it's everything from talking having conversations like the one you 1:06:23.240 --> 1:06:26.400 and I are having here too, talking to politicians, talking 1:06:26.480 --> 1:06:29.360 to I had the District Attorney of Philadelphia, who's a 1:06:29.440 --> 1:06:32.920 progressive DA. So it's really spanning the spectrum. And the 1:06:33.040 --> 1:06:35.360 question for me is whether there will be an audience 1:06:35.760 --> 1:06:38.240 of people who want to hear one day about ketamine 1:06:38.600 --> 1:06:41.280 therapy and the next day about the politics of marijuana bill, 1:06:41.320 --> 1:06:44.440 the next day about the overdose crisis in America, and 1:06:44.560 --> 1:06:47.040 the next day about how New York legalized marijuana, the 1:06:47.080 --> 1:06:49.120 next day about the head of the U. S. Government's 1:06:49.240 --> 1:06:53.360 you know, drug Research funding Agency. But I think I'm 1:06:53.560 --> 1:06:56.000 I'm meeting more and more people strangers coming up to 1:06:56.120 --> 1:06:59.880 me not just in the US, but in Europe and elsewhere, saying, wow, 1:07:00.000 --> 1:07:03.160 I listen to your podcast, and so I'm I'm feeling 1:07:03.200 --> 1:07:06.120 optimistic that there's going to be an audience. And you know, 1:07:06.200 --> 1:07:10.040 I'm very grateful that Darren Aronovski, the movie director, reached 1:07:10.040 --> 1:07:11.520 out to me. I knew him a little bit from 1:07:11.520 --> 1:07:14.040 the Drug Policy Alliance days. He said, you want to 1:07:14.080 --> 1:07:15.840 do a podcast in the psychedelics. I said, no, I 1:07:15.880 --> 1:07:17.640 want to do one in all drugs. He said, let's 1:07:17.640 --> 1:07:20.320 do it, and then he had teamed up with My Heart. 1:07:20.440 --> 1:07:22.800 So he's made a lot of famous movies, but this 1:07:23.000 --> 1:07:25.959 is his first podcast venture. So it's a good team. 1:07:26.040 --> 1:07:28.680 It's professional. It means there's commercials on it, which I 1:07:28.720 --> 1:07:32.280 don't like, but that's the model. Um and uh. I 1:07:32.360 --> 1:07:34.600 can see I can see him behind the scene, because 1:07:35.720 --> 1:07:38.480 you're always looking a little bit for the conflicts. You know, 1:07:38.600 --> 1:07:40.960 you'll find a way to disagree with your guests. I 1:07:41.120 --> 1:07:44.320 see dar and behind saying you know you need the coach. No, 1:07:45.280 --> 1:07:47.240 actually he didn't need. He never said anything like that. 1:07:47.680 --> 1:07:49.520 As I say in the opening episode, I am a 1:07:49.640 --> 1:07:53.280 contrarian deep down, and I think also that to have 1:07:53.400 --> 1:07:55.840 a podcast where you I mostly had people on there 1:07:55.880 --> 1:07:58.360 who I'm who I've learned from, who I generally agree with. 1:07:58.800 --> 1:08:00.800 But he can get boring if you were just agree 1:08:01.080 --> 1:08:04.360 And therefore I see it's my role to play Devil's advocate. 1:08:04.760 --> 1:08:07.760 It's my role to challenge them, um even if I 1:08:07.760 --> 1:08:09.640 agree with them, and to say, how do you respond 1:08:09.800 --> 1:08:12.720 to the critics who say this, um so. I think 1:08:12.800 --> 1:08:15.280 that's part of what makes it more interesting amazing. Thank 1:08:15.320 --> 1:08:17.200 you very much. What's the name of the podcast and 1:08:17.240 --> 1:08:20.680 where they can find it again? It's called Psychoactive and 1:08:20.880 --> 1:08:23.439 it is on all the major platforms. Thank you very much. 1:08:23.520 --> 1:08:26.120 Was a pleasure to chat with you. Good luck with 1:08:26.160 --> 1:08:28.040 this podcast as well, and I look forward to seeing 1:08:28.040 --> 1:08:29.920 you one of these days and visa for sure, come 1:08:29.960 --> 1:08:34.320 and visit. Thank you very much. Focus so natas so 1:08:34.600 --> 1:08:41.160 no noond cock so nata so nana irond go god 1:08:41.439 --> 1:08:48.720 so nata sona go God so Nata so nat go 1:08:49.280 --> 1:08:55.599 god so not so not go God so na son. 1:09:03.200 --> 1:09:07.880 Next week I'll be talking with Professor Neil Carrier at 1:09:07.880 --> 1:09:11.720 the University of Bristol in the UK about cut the 1:09:11.920 --> 1:09:15.719 fascinating drug plant from the Horn of Africa and Yemen. 1:09:16.120 --> 1:09:19.320 A friend of mine actually had a really really nice 1:09:19.360 --> 1:09:22.599 way of describing the effects of CAT as being something 1:09:22.720 --> 1:09:25.840 that if you sit down in an armchair and you're 1:09:25.880 --> 1:09:29.200 not quite comfortable, but then suddenly you just shift your 1:09:29.240 --> 1:09:31.720 body and you find that place where you know your 1:09:31.760 --> 1:09:34.920 body is completely comfortable. CAT seems to be a little 1:09:34.960 --> 1:09:37.719 bit like that. It is quite a quite a subtle effect. 1:09:37.840 --> 1:09:40.240 You know that, the way it makes you makes you feel, 1:09:40.320 --> 1:09:42.639 but it you know it. It is quite a quite 1:09:42.680 --> 1:09:46.720 a pleasant substance. Subscribe to Psychoactive now see it all, 1:09:46.760 --> 1:09:47.000 miss it