Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the
Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any
Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,
Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as
Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not
Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show
Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use
Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today we're gonna
Speaker 1: bring you a holiday bonus episode instead of our regular series.
Speaker 1: In this case, I'm being interviewed for someone else's podcast.
Speaker 1: It's a friend of mine, gian Carlo kind of s
Speaker 1: c O, who has a podcast called Mango dot tv. Uh.
Speaker 1: He asked me to be the first guest in a
Speaker 1: series he has started called Psychedelic Confessions, in which he
Speaker 1: interviews various people in the field. I think Dennis McKenna
Speaker 1: was on at some others who you may have heard
Speaker 1: on Psychoactive, and in it we reflect on our respective
Speaker 1: experiences with psychedelics, with with psilocybin, mushrooms, and LSD and ayahuasca,
Speaker 1: mescal and kennamine, d M T M, d M A,
Speaker 1: cannabis and others. So, as you can imagine, this was
Speaker 1: perhaps one of my most personal interviews. I really think
Speaker 1: you'll enjoy it. Now, before go taking you there, I
Speaker 1: just want to remind you that the second season of
Speaker 1: Psychoactive will come to an end in late January three.
Speaker 1: At that point I'll be looking for new sponsors so
Speaker 1: we can keep the podcast going and get it up
Speaker 1: and going again later in the year. So in the meantime,
Speaker 1: if you've enjoyed Psychoactive, please take this opportunity to spread
Speaker 1: the word to friends and colleagues, encourage them to listen
Speaker 1: to it, to download it, leave your comments Wherever you
Speaker 1: leave comments about podcast, uh, feel free to send me
Speaker 1: your own comments to either the Psychoactive email address or
Speaker 1: to Ethan at Nadelman dot net. I'll do my best
Speaker 1: to respond. And here you go with an episode of
Speaker 1: psychelic Confessions and Giancarlo kind of SCIO's Mango TV podcast.
Speaker 1: O God so Nata Nana go go so Nata So
Speaker 1: Nana go God, So Nata so not go Gods or
Speaker 1: Nata son go God or nota so not orient go god,
Speaker 1: so nata so not a. Hello guys, Welcome to the
Speaker 1: seventh episode of the Mango TV podcast. I'm here with
Speaker 1: another One. Very excited for this conversation, described by Rolling
Speaker 1: Stones as the point meant for drug policy reform efforts
Speaker 1: and the real drugs are Another Man is widely regarded
Speaker 1: as the outstanding proponent of drug policy reform, both in
Speaker 1: the United States and abroad. He founded and directed first
Speaker 1: the Linden Smith Center and then the Drug Policy Alliance,
Speaker 1: from during which time he and his colleagues were at
Speaker 1: the forefront of dozens of successful campaign to legal as
Speaker 1: marijuana and advanced other alternatives to the War on drugs.
Speaker 1: Ethan currently also the leading podcast on all things drugs
Speaker 1: called Psychoactive. Welcome with and It's a pleasure. So I
Speaker 1: would like to propose you something different. Rather than me
Speaker 1: asking questions on your expertise on on drug policy, I
Speaker 1: would like your help to educate our audience on a
Speaker 1: bunch of different psychoactive drugs. I want to premise that
Speaker 1: people listening don't do these drugs alone. Find a guide
Speaker 1: for the sitter, like you wouldn't go on top of
Speaker 1: a volcano. Alone, so be mindful. Some of the substances
Speaker 1: are illegal, some can be very can give very adverse reactions,
Speaker 1: so be educated and have a have a have an
Speaker 1: expert guide. So I choose twelve compounds, and we're gonna
Speaker 1: see if we can go through all of them and
Speaker 1: and just share our our experience. UM, I want to
Speaker 1: add two variables. So one thing people usually underestimated when
Speaker 1: they talk about psychedelic drug effect is the dosage. So
Speaker 1: some of this compound have a very different effect. So
Speaker 1: we're gonna try to be mindful of when we talk
Speaker 1: about the effect UM in in in being clear if
Speaker 1: it's low, medium or hideos. And then the other thing
Speaker 1: we have to be mindful when we talk about this
Speaker 1: UM this compound is the intention. So what are we
Speaker 1: looking to att eve? Do we want recreational or celebration outcome?
Speaker 1: Do we want a medical or sako therapetical session, or
Speaker 1: do we want a spiritual transcendental session? So UM, let
Speaker 1: me tell, let me tell you the compound I choose,
Speaker 1: and let me know if you think I should we
Speaker 1: should remove or at something. So I have for you
Speaker 1: to discuss today Cannabis, marijuana, mushroom, l S, d M,
Speaker 1: d M A ayahuasca, pot, some M katamine, cambo, and
Speaker 1: t C B. Huh okay, Well, I have never done peyote. Um,
Speaker 1: I've done escaland ones, but you know, I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's all that different from me than having done mushrooms,
Speaker 1: um tambo. I've been offered it to it, and I
Speaker 1: somehow the notion of purging in the way that tambo
Speaker 1: does I turned away from that. And I haven't done
Speaker 1: some pedro either, So I think the the other ones
Speaker 1: I have anything ranging from a single experience to half
Speaker 1: dozen many years ago to much more recent experience. Right,
Speaker 1: So let's start from the beginning. So marijuana, what's your
Speaker 1: favorite use? How tell us a little your your relationship
Speaker 1: with that plant. Well, I mean I'll tell you first
Speaker 1: of all, that has been marijuana has been basically my
Speaker 1: friend for many years. I didn't start until I was
Speaker 1: eighteen years old. I'm now sixty four, so you know,
Speaker 1: we've been friends for forty six years, and I say
Speaker 1: it's been an overwhelmingly positive relationship. I should preface that
Speaker 1: first by saying, I know people for who marijuana is
Speaker 1: a terrible relationship, People who not just become paranoid but
Speaker 1: become delusional. So, you know, people who become addicted to
Speaker 1: it in a way that's problematic in their lives. So
Speaker 1: I don't want to say marijuana's for everybody. I'm lucky
Speaker 1: and that virtually all my drug relationships have been generally
Speaker 1: or almost entirely positive. So but I understand that's not
Speaker 1: the case for everybody else but marijuana. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: never been a daily consumer. I mean, there might be
Speaker 1: moments when I'm at a festival or with a certain
Speaker 1: friends who gets high every day, and I might smoke
Speaker 1: multiple days in a row, but I almost have an
Speaker 1: anti addictive personality. So if I smoked three for days
Speaker 1: in a row, like, I don't want to even smoke
Speaker 1: the following day, you know, I just want to clear out.
Speaker 1: What I like is if I if I've not smoked
Speaker 1: marijuana for a week or two or more, the first
Speaker 1: time I do it, it's delicious, right, and especially good marijuana.
Speaker 1: And what happens to me is I start to stretch.
Speaker 1: I get this incredible desire to stretch and to be
Speaker 1: in my body. I remember it was funny when I
Speaker 1: was younger. I might be walking along my daughter down
Speaker 1: the streets in Manhattan, and she would be so embarrassed
Speaker 1: when I was in the middle of the road, I'd
Speaker 1: stop and stretch. You know. Now she's growing accustomed to it.
Speaker 1: But marijuana, it helps me get in my body. I
Speaker 1: love it with things like um uh, swimming, I mean that.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, we all know about marijuana and food.
Speaker 1: We know about marijuana, go in the movies. You know, marijuana,
Speaker 1: including edible form. For going to the symphony has been beautiful.
Speaker 1: Um for me the least developed of my sensibilities. You know,
Speaker 1: food tastes, sense and all that is my aesthetic sensibility.
Speaker 1: So for me, getting high before I go to a
Speaker 1: museum really significantly elevates the experience. I have a vivid
Speaker 1: memory of being in Prague and going to this house
Speaker 1: in Prague that was the museum of a famous turn
Speaker 1: of the century, you know, check artists who have done
Speaker 1: in all sorts of forms, and just being captivated in
Speaker 1: a way that I never would have without the marijuana.
Speaker 1: But when it comes to the present day, my typical
Speaker 1: use of marijuana now, my favorite juse is once a
Speaker 1: week when I'm home in New York, I take ten
Speaker 1: milligrams of edible marijuana, grab my headphones and head down
Speaker 1: to the corner where there's a Chinese massage place, and
Speaker 1: I have a multi hour massage and for very deep massage,
Speaker 1: you know, walking on the backs of my legs and
Speaker 1: my sides. And for me, I think that keeps me centered.
Speaker 1: It's my own basis, my closest thing I have to
Speaker 1: a real irritation in my life. My brain just floats.
Speaker 1: I come out of there feeling great, and I think
Speaker 1: of it as an integral part of my process of
Speaker 1: healthy aging. Amazing, amazing and and and for me it's complicated.
Speaker 1: You know, I had a problem of abuse. I end
Speaker 1: up being in a rehability. I went on a rehab
Speaker 1: for wheat. Yeah, they were there. Everybody was like why
Speaker 1: you here. Crystal met the heroine, crack, cocaine and alcohol,
Speaker 1: and I was like, kind of bit and you know
Speaker 1: it's for me. It was very difficult to use without abuse.
Speaker 1: And the Graham Hackck says that every plant has a spirit,
Speaker 1: and every spirit as a personality. So the myaska as
Speaker 1: the loving grandmother, the or the boga is the stern grandfather,
Speaker 1: and the marijuana is the trickster spirit. So it tricks
Speaker 1: you in belief that you needed every day and and
Speaker 1: so so it's a it's a it's a tricky one. Okay,
Speaker 1: what about mushrooms. So just for our audience, a typical
Speaker 1: load dose of mushrooms, I mean in the of those. Now,
Speaker 1: there is also the micro dose, which is very popular,
Speaker 1: which is the James Fatima protocol of zero twenties, zero
Speaker 1: fifteen just pre perceptional, uh, one day every three days.
Speaker 1: Um So this is becoming very popular now. But the
Speaker 1: low dos is roughly I would say half a gram.
Speaker 1: A medium dose also called museum those is like maybe
Speaker 1: a two grams, and then high dose is when we
Speaker 1: go into you know, five plus into full ego dissolution.
Speaker 1: Um So, tell us about your relationship. I'll tell you.
Speaker 1: I mean, for me, I've rarely done the low dos.
Speaker 1: In fact, the first time I ever really did it. Uh,
Speaker 1: there was a friend of mine having a fiftieth birthday
Speaker 1: party whose name happens to be Gi and Carlo Canevstia.
Speaker 1: And at that party, he he was making available to
Speaker 1: his guests some chocolate, you know, mushrooms at about one
Speaker 1: graham half a gram one graham, and I think some
Speaker 1: other substances maybe chocolate cannabis as well, and I had
Speaker 1: I just perfect dose. And I will say I danced
Speaker 1: that night like I don't think I've ever danced in
Speaker 1: my life. I had a spectacular time at your birthday party,
Speaker 1: Jen Carle, and I came away going I didn't know
Speaker 1: mushrooms could be so much fun in the low dose,
Speaker 1: and so you know. But then, quite frankly, a few
Speaker 1: weeks ago, I was in Europe um and uh I
Speaker 1: actually it was, I'll say, in Scandinavia. I want to
Speaker 1: see the exact city, and somebody was offering chocolate mushrooms
Speaker 1: and I took it out about the same dose, thinking
Speaker 1: I was going to go to a place with a
Speaker 1: wonderful DJ and let loose and dance, and it turned
Speaker 1: out to be a whole bunch of people standing around
Speaker 1: an ugly looking bar type thing, and I just had
Speaker 1: a you know, get through it finds, you know, somebody
Speaker 1: I could talk to and focus on them and just
Speaker 1: not be too bummed out about the whole thing. So
Speaker 1: I'm increasingly intrigued by that, um, the lower dose use
Speaker 1: of mushrooms, maybe combined with with some cannabis um for
Speaker 1: you know, having fun. That said almost My entire experience
Speaker 1: with mushrooms has been the high dos. It's been the
Speaker 1: four or five six grams of mariana, of mushrooms, of
Speaker 1: dry mushrooms. And I started when I was about twenty three.
Speaker 1: I must have done them about ten times back then,
Speaker 1: and they have played an incredibly important role in my life.
Speaker 1: So blindfolded with the headson, I never have done them blindfold.
Speaker 1: And I have friends who told me, if you haven't
Speaker 1: done on blindfold, you haven't really done them. But I
Speaker 1: would tend to do them, um, going out maybe in nature,
Speaker 1: maybe at the beach, maybe going outside to come on
Speaker 1: and then coming back to my apartment or my friend
Speaker 1: a friend's place. Um. But I'll tell you if I
Speaker 1: think about, let's say I've done mushrooms at a high
Speaker 1: dose maybe twenty five times in my life. And then
Speaker 1: if you take the the say, the four hours between
Speaker 1: the time when you're peaking and then when the kind
Speaker 1: of you start to come down. Um, in those hundred
Speaker 1: hours of my life, I have had some of the
Speaker 1: most important sort of uh intellectual insights of my life.
Speaker 1: I used to be a professor that really made a
Speaker 1: difference to me. I've had the most amazing culinary experience
Speaker 1: of my life. I had what, in some respects was
Speaker 1: the most extraordinary orgasm of my life. I saw the
Speaker 1: most beautiful sunset of my life. And and the moment
Speaker 1: um when I was thirty two and actually had to
Speaker 1: tell your ride Mushroom conferencing in Colorado that Andrew Wild
Speaker 1: used to organize with others. Um, you know, I had
Speaker 1: a moment there which where my sort of vision of
Speaker 1: what my life was going to be, this life in
Speaker 1: drug policy reform sort of crystallized for me. You know.
Speaker 1: It wasn't an epiphany, but it really crystallized in that way.
Speaker 1: And so I'd say, mushrooms have just played this really
Speaker 1: really powerful um uh, you know, spiritual, intellectual, psychological, social
Speaker 1: role in my life. So that there was a there
Speaker 1: was if you want, like an ARC on those twenty
Speaker 1: five session, would you go back to where you left? Then?
Speaker 1: Then on EA, what's funny you asked that? Because I
Speaker 1: did it I think nine times between the age of
Speaker 1: twenty three and and uh, And that was and then,
Speaker 1: you know, very good experiences, overwhelmingly no bad, no bad ones,
Speaker 1: although I do have two bad ones I could talk about.
Speaker 1: But then what happened was the last one of these experiences.
Speaker 1: I was twenty five. I was, you know, approaching the
Speaker 1: end of a long term relationship that I've been in
Speaker 1: was since the beginning of college. I was trying to
Speaker 1: think through what my focus was going to be in life.
Speaker 1: Was I going to become an activist or become an academic.
Speaker 1: Was I going to keep studying what was in my
Speaker 1: specialty Middle East politics or go into something news is
Speaker 1: Right before I got into the drug thing, and at
Speaker 1: the remember the mushrooms came on and I started muttering
Speaker 1: like conflict, conflict. I was just muttering conflict. I was
Speaker 1: soon this energy coursing through my body, but just feeling
Speaker 1: conflict conflict. Anyway, my life changed quite a bit. I
Speaker 1: shifted my focus, change relationships, met the woman was going
Speaker 1: to become my wife. Did not do mushrooms for seven years,
Speaker 1: and then until your right, for seven years. I take
Speaker 1: them for the first time in seven years, and the
Speaker 1: drug starts to come on fairly strong, and it's like
Speaker 1: just jumping right back to her I had been seven
Speaker 1: years earlier, like conflict gods like. But then the thing
Speaker 1: I started to get up And sometimes when the emotional
Speaker 1: energy is coming on very strong at that high dose.
Speaker 1: I like to be very physical, so I started running
Speaker 1: through this field. It was actually to tell your right
Speaker 1: high school on a summer weekend, right, and and and running, running,
Speaker 1: getting all the energy going. And then the constantly kind
Speaker 1: of dissolved. And it was in that session that I
Speaker 1: really reached the realization that, you know, that my life
Speaker 1: was really going to be about teaching about drugs, about
Speaker 1: psychoactive drugs, and then it did not matter whether I
Speaker 1: stayed in the university or went into politics or journalism
Speaker 1: or advocacy, but that this was going to be my
Speaker 1: calling in life, and that teaching about drugs would be
Speaker 1: a vehicle for speaking out about some of the broader
Speaker 1: issues that we were confronting in our socim and use company.
Speaker 1: For me, it was just it was just a settling.
Speaker 1: It was a centering that was very beautiful and very calming.
Speaker 1: A few weeks later, well a week later less than that,
Speaker 1: I went into It was a TV show, Dan Rather
Speaker 1: forty eight hours on Crack Street or whatever is one
Speaker 1: of these, you know, in the height of the drug one,
Speaker 1: and I walked in. I realized it's a set up.
Speaker 1: You know, there's somebody who's been devastated by drugs and
Speaker 1: a d agent and so you know, and there's all
Speaker 1: set up, but I just centered right down. And for me,
Speaker 1: you know, I've never looked back since that moment. I've
Speaker 1: known that this was my calling in life. And I
Speaker 1: feel quite blessed to have realized this. It's such a
Speaker 1: young but because I think, you know, Michael Poland, compared
Speaker 1: to the full moder network that we now know is
Speaker 1: the neurocircuitry that gets subdued with the trip to means,
Speaker 1: so including magic mushroom, and Michael Poland says, is the
Speaker 1: closest thing to your egoic armor. And he says that
Speaker 1: it's like the director of the orchestra of your brain
Speaker 1: who then fall asleep. So for the first time, all
Speaker 1: the different instruments are now free to be them now independent,
Speaker 1: So there is not the the structure of your conditioning,
Speaker 1: cultural conditioning, of your biography. So in that moment, you
Speaker 1: are really allowed to see who you are without this
Speaker 1: armor of of your ego. You know, it's interesting. I mean,
Speaker 1: for me, I don't know that I ever achieve ego dissolution,
Speaker 1: even with a very high dose mushrooms. I mean, I
Speaker 1: know I'm told that I look psychotic and I can't
Speaker 1: be out in public. I'm sort of walking around. My
Speaker 1: arms are flying and my eyes look demonic. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, so I have my my partner who's with me,
Speaker 1: and she's you know, watching out for me. And in
Speaker 1: this sort of stuff. Um, it's it's extremely intense, but
Speaker 1: it's very in the body, and I sometimes think of mushrooms.
Speaker 1: It's almost like putting a power pack on my back,
Speaker 1: and that power pack like like you're gonna fly, like
Speaker 1: you know those all things, you know, the cartoons or
Speaker 1: whatever puts a power pack on their on their back
Speaker 1: and they can go fly. And it's like I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be out there flying in a way, but grounded. And
Speaker 1: it can go into an intellectual, a spiritual, a sexual,
Speaker 1: a physical direction and I can guide it a bit,
Speaker 1: but I can't control it. And if I try to
Speaker 1: assert my will too much, the mushrooms will funk with me.
Speaker 1: So I have to you know, I'm going there. I
Speaker 1: don't go in typically with a lot of intent. It's
Speaker 1: more like, let's see what's brewing inside me and what
Speaker 1: these mushrooms will bring out. And so it's in that,
Speaker 1: but I will say, you know, it's a very sometimes
Speaker 1: quite physical for me. I'm in my body in a
Speaker 1: deep and profound way. I'm feeling the energy coursing. I
Speaker 1: sometimes feel almost animalistic when I'm under the influence of
Speaker 1: these things. Um. I also will say, I'm not very
Speaker 1: good at listening if I'm with somebody. I I've learned,
Speaker 1: don't do hide those mushrooms with other people, like just
Speaker 1: be in my own trip and hopefully if somebody who
Speaker 1: can keep an eye on me to make sure I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, not chewing my arm off or something. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I had so I had a very interesting high those
Speaker 1: mushrooms when I was just start dating stuff. My wife
Speaker 1: and that we decided to do this to be together
Speaker 1: really seriously exclusively, and so she had closer apartment in
Speaker 1: Paris and all her staff would I had arrived in
Speaker 1: New York and it was also Christmas, and my mother
Speaker 1: and my father and her daughter, all the family was here.
Speaker 1: So the combination of the move in my subconscious created
Speaker 1: a sense of completely you know, I felt really disoriented
Speaker 1: and I didn't know what to do. So I did
Speaker 1: five grand of mush and and uh and that was
Speaker 1: a full on ego dissolution and it remains one of
Speaker 1: the one of the most beautiful but also terrifying experience.
Speaker 1: And in that moment of nothingness where your identity is
Speaker 1: gone and you feel part of nothing, it's really frightening.
Speaker 1: But then the me together, the real coagulation of your identity,
Speaker 1: then it's really beautiful because you realize that the key
Speaker 1: to rebuild yourself is your personal relation is love. You know,
Speaker 1: it's all about love. And the sixty I really understand
Speaker 1: what they meant because when you're completely gone and you
Speaker 1: you lost not just your body but your identity and
Speaker 1: you when you come back, you realize that the key
Speaker 1: to understand who you are, it's complete linked to the
Speaker 1: people you love around you. So to this day it's
Speaker 1: it's definitely sometimes says can you please dose five grandmom,
Speaker 1: because we had given this love declaration and then I
Speaker 1: came out and I have my mother. It was like
Speaker 1: like like a Ginsberg. Yeah, well you know how I'll
Speaker 1: tell you. I mean, for me, there have been two
Speaker 1: times when the mushrooms went in a very dark direction
Speaker 1: and and it was like where everything is just blacked,
Speaker 1: where you really I've never suffered from severe depression and
Speaker 1: I've only ever gone through a depressive episode once for
Speaker 1: a few months in my life. But it was like
Speaker 1: where everything has a black edge. Everything looks like you
Speaker 1: see the dead side right on the live side. And
Speaker 1: and and and I used two different approaches. One which
Speaker 1: felt a little like cheating, was I took some M
Speaker 1: D M A and that helped lift me out and
Speaker 1: make a softer, gentler experience. But the other one, which
Speaker 1: is the one I think is the one that one
Speaker 1: should aspire to, is I was on a beach actually
Speaker 1: in Montauk, New York, at the end of Long Island,
Speaker 1: and and just in a very dark place. I mean,
Speaker 1: the sand all looked like decaying um, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: skeletal matter. And there was some homes up top above
Speaker 1: the beach, and they looked oppressive, and the greens looked
Speaker 1: you know, ominous, and all of this, and I couldn't
Speaker 1: escape it. You can't run from a bad trip, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's the thing. And so then I and I conceived
Speaker 1: in a way of this trip as this big ominous wave.
Speaker 1: And for anybody who's ever gone swimming in the ocean,
Speaker 1: you know you can't run from a big way, which
Speaker 1: you need to do is to dive into it, dive
Speaker 1: under it. And so I kind of almost you know, figuratively,
Speaker 1: but even literally, I almost like died downward, like going
Speaker 1: into child's post position on the beach and into the thing.
Speaker 1: And I came out the other end of this thing
Speaker 1: in my consciousness, and the depression lifted, and every all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, those ominous looking trees now look like
Speaker 1: a beautiful jungle in four dimensions, and the homes were
Speaker 1: the most beautiful architecture I've ever seen, and the beach
Speaker 1: was gorgeous and I was and it just lifted. And
Speaker 1: so I think that understanding that when it's really bad,
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, people can just hold on and try
Speaker 1: it be you can't run, and if you can, if
Speaker 1: you can dive into the blackness, sometimes that's what actually
Speaker 1: brings you out the other side. How amazing, amazing um
Speaker 1: ell is the well I have to say, LSD, I've
Speaker 1: never done the quote unquote rowic dose. I'm a little
Speaker 1: embarrassed to say that, you know. I mean, I've done
Speaker 1: the kind of hundred microgram numerous times and and that's
Speaker 1: been good to me. It feels a bit like a
Speaker 1: mushroom experience, but it's got that kind of chugger chugger chugger,
Speaker 1: you know, stimulant side to it just keeps going and going,
Speaker 1: and it feels like it feels like at the hundred
Speaker 1: micram level. For me, it feels like doing a kind
Speaker 1: of three or four grams of mushrooms but with a
Speaker 1: strong amphetamine underneath it. And so it's been good. UM.
Speaker 1: More commonly, what I've done is to do and I
Speaker 1: don't know, I I you know, so I don't know
Speaker 1: what I call. I tend to think of micro docing
Speaker 1: as being you know, three five below ten micrograms, and
Speaker 1: what I would normally do would be between twenty and thirty,
Speaker 1: maybe forty. And I regard that as mini does. Now.
Speaker 1: I just came from this amazing psychedelics and business conference
Speaker 1: in Miami, the Wonderland Miami Conference, and there was somebody
Speaker 1: involved in the whole micro dose failed and he was like, no, Ethan,
Speaker 1: actually micro docing really is in the twenty area, you know.
Speaker 1: But I felt that when I did to that level, UM,
Speaker 1: I find I I like it. It's not you know,
Speaker 1: I've had some wonderful times sometimes combining it with a
Speaker 1: little cannabis. UM. I found that sexually. Sometimes that can
Speaker 1: be a wonderful combination. Low dose, you know, micro docing
Speaker 1: of say twenty micrograms grams for me to get a
Speaker 1: little bit of available cannabis um is a beautiful combination
Speaker 1: for that. So I've had wonderful times with friends, but
Speaker 1: I don't have that kind of spiritual connection to LSD.
Speaker 1: And I've never done, you know, as I said, the
Speaker 1: heroic dose, and i haven't ever pursued it, and I'm
Speaker 1: maybe a little scared, and I feel like I really
Speaker 1: should give it a go. But what about you? What's
Speaker 1: your experience there? Um? Similar? Similar? I never did the
Speaker 1: rug dose. I've done a bunch of hundred hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty you know. Amanda Nepath initiated me in and the
Speaker 1: that was that beautiful. I think it was more like
Speaker 1: fifth the microgram. UM. I had some difficult time. Um.
Speaker 1: You know. The thing with for me, the less this
Speaker 1: that I never did this ceremonially, so I never really
Speaker 1: feel safe. But like you, I'm intrigued. At some stage
Speaker 1: in one of my usually up and down I called
Speaker 1: Rick Dublin and he said, listen, I'm ready. I want
Speaker 1: to do a high dose. I want to you know
Speaker 1: that was it wasn't one of my many middle life crisis.
Speaker 1: And so we cooked me up with this guide in
Speaker 1: California somewhere um and they had a protocol of three
Speaker 1: days where the first day you just you know, get
Speaker 1: closer to disper to the guide and and then you
Speaker 1: do some breathing and so yoga. You get ready for
Speaker 1: day two, they give a little bit of the m
Speaker 1: DM A just too ease, and then you go for
Speaker 1: five anthrem and I was booked, and then something happened.
Speaker 1: So the universe thought that I wasn't ready. But I'm
Speaker 1: I'm curious, and I don't know. You're familiar with the
Speaker 1: Christopher Bash, this professor of theology. I know the name,
Speaker 1: but I haven't read or know him. He did seventy
Speaker 1: three high dose this session in the course of twenty years,
Speaker 1: so roughly every three or four months he would go
Speaker 1: from under micagram. And I was in a psychedelic conference
Speaker 1: in London and he was there and he says that,
Speaker 1: you know, twenty years every four months, that's a big commitment.
Speaker 1: And he said that at the beginning, you would you know,
Speaker 1: go in the LSD Real as a as a visitor,
Speaker 1: but then after so many times you become a resident
Speaker 1: and he's really so the future of humankind. He's really
Speaker 1: become part of this commist cosmic consciousness. And and yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it sounds like it's funny. You mentioned lady Amanda. And
Speaker 1: you know my one and only time in Burning Man
Speaker 1: about ten twelve years ago, and I was in Rick
Speaker 1: Doublin's maps camp and Alex Gray and Allison had their
Speaker 1: tent there. It was really wonderful and and Sasha Shogun
Speaker 1: and and later Amanda were just around the corner for me.
Speaker 1: And I won't say who exactly gave me the hundred
Speaker 1: micrograhams of LSD, but it was the last night averting
Speaker 1: Man and a friend and I just biked all around
Speaker 1: the player and it was a weird night because everybody's
Speaker 1: leaving and so your landmarks are disappearing, so you're tripping
Speaker 1: and landmarks are disappearing, and you know, but that was
Speaker 1: a very pleasurable experiences, incredible. The same thing happened to
Speaker 1: me because you know, the dome's gone, right, and so
Speaker 1: they take the name of the street down. So it
Speaker 1: was exactly so maybe maybe one day we'll go together
Speaker 1: and them. I liked the Humans California md A. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean M D m A played an important role
Speaker 1: in my life. Um. You know, there was a moment
Speaker 1: in my early thirties, uh, when I had never done
Speaker 1: it before, and my marriage was you know, not in
Speaker 1: a good place, really bad, and uh, you know, we're
Speaker 1: going to marriage counseling and it wasn't really looking very
Speaker 1: optimistic and my wife and I um did M D
Speaker 1: m A and it was, oh my god. It was
Speaker 1: like you know, chains peeling away, like things lifting, and
Speaker 1: the sense of love that we felt. And I remember
Speaker 1: we were thinking, what we can't do this all the time.
Speaker 1: So we you know, we sat down and thought, how
Speaker 1: do we come back to this space without the drug?
Speaker 1: And we agreed on certain things while we runder the
Speaker 1: influence that here's what we would do. I remember going
Speaker 1: to see the marriage counselor a few days later and
Speaker 1: she was blowing away. She had heard about this, but
Speaker 1: to see it. And in the end we still split up,
Speaker 1: but I think it helped us to a softer landing
Speaker 1: where my X and I have been good friends and
Speaker 1: very good co parents for our you know, wonderful daughter
Speaker 1: for you know, the last you know, three decades or whatever.
Speaker 1: So it was great in that respect, and I think
Speaker 1: it played a It's played an important role in my
Speaker 1: other relationships since then, really and being able to clear
Speaker 1: the air, being able to talk and hear in a
Speaker 1: very heartfelt way. And my great regret, Jan Carlo is
Speaker 1: it really hasn't worked for me for the last fifteen years.
Speaker 1: You know. I loved it in my thirties and forties,
Speaker 1: and now I don't get that much of the upside.
Speaker 1: I definitely get the downside, and my body's like telling
Speaker 1: me Ethan, don't, don't do it. You know. Friends suggested
Speaker 1: that I try m D A that which was kind
Speaker 1: of the predecessor M to m D m A, the
Speaker 1: popular one back in the seventies. And I tried that
Speaker 1: not long ago, and I got a little more of
Speaker 1: the M D m ash effect and it lasted a
Speaker 1: little longer, but it kicked a shed at me physically
Speaker 1: for a few days. So I think now I relish
Speaker 1: the experience that I had. Some of my most beautiful memories,
Speaker 1: especially in relationships with UH with women, have been with
Speaker 1: those times, and I think it helps sustain me in
Speaker 1: a longer relationship. Um. But I regret that you know,
Speaker 1: I have to say it's in my past. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Also for me for for a couple of therapy. For me,
Speaker 1: the magic happens because you can see from the other
Speaker 1: person points of view. I you know, with Stephanie, I
Speaker 1: you know, under this this influence, I would see how
Speaker 1: she sees me and that really helped. And we have
Speaker 1: a friend that they have this yearly tradition they go
Speaker 1: to a uh this couple they offer a couple of
Speaker 1: therapy in England and it's basically again three days affair.
Speaker 1: They have this questionnaire for the couple that you fill
Speaker 1: up before taking m d M A, during and after
Speaker 1: and it's you know, question geared towards you know, acknowledgement
Speaker 1: of what is the thing that don't work for you,
Speaker 1: which way your needs are not met and and you know,
Speaker 1: give you such a clear perspective. So I remember Sasha
Speaker 1: Shergin Burnia Man told me that you can do MBM
Speaker 1: A once a year. There was actually said yeah, because
Speaker 1: you need time for the serotonin in and and so
Speaker 1: so you know which I also wonder are men more
Speaker 1: likely to burn out on mdmad women? I mean, just anecdotally,
Speaker 1: I think I think you know, women seemed able to
Speaker 1: use it longer and so get the effect, and I
Speaker 1: seem to remember that Sasha's wife and continue to like
Speaker 1: m dm ay and maybe using more often, even as
Speaker 1: Sasha was becoming more reserved. Rick Rick once told me
Speaker 1: that you have the down when you try to cope
Speaker 1: too early. Basically, when you have the serratony in depletion,
Speaker 1: then you have to take the day off. You have
Speaker 1: to like, you know, the Tuesday blows. You need to like,
Speaker 1: you know, be in the countryside, not having your phone,
Speaker 1: not having to deal the moment you try to cope,
Speaker 1: then you have to down. So so you need to
Speaker 1: really even more than the preparation for the integration. You
Speaker 1: need a full day where you're not solicited intellectually. And
Speaker 1: then of course there is the seratonin in integrator f
Speaker 1: HTP that that helps. But it's true that with me too,
Speaker 1: with age, the recovery is harder. Well, I even find
Speaker 1: that the experience itself. And so somebody suggests I've been trying,
Speaker 1: like opping the dose. I think I might try. Somebody
Speaker 1: suggests try a much lower dose, one that I would
Speaker 1: think that I would barely feel it and see see
Speaker 1: what that's like. So I might try that, but I've
Speaker 1: literally only done it, I don't know, maybe four or
Speaker 1: five times in the last fifteen plus years, and and
Speaker 1: none of them have really been right. So I want
Speaker 1: to add one thing, because you know, America is very
Speaker 1: pure ton around the idea of the recreational, and so
Speaker 1: I like to, you know, instead of using the word recreation,
Speaker 1: if you call it like celebratory. I remember two years
Speaker 1: ago I did the next as the other party, and
Speaker 1: a little bit like your experience of my my birthday
Speaker 1: party with the mushroom, I had ten hours of dancing
Speaker 1: in an ecstatic celebration of life. And that also is
Speaker 1: um it's good. I seem to recall I may have
Speaker 1: taken a very low dose of M d M a
Speaker 1: your party in carl It together with the other stuff.
Speaker 1: It may have been the only time it's really worked
Speaker 1: for me in the last fifteen years. Now. This is
Speaker 1: my favorite, of course, ayowatcom Yeah, well, you know I've
Speaker 1: done it a couple of times, once in a Santo
Speaker 1: Dime ceremony in New York. Actually, um, I remember going
Speaker 1: into that when I was a little apprehensive, because you know,
Speaker 1: I'm fairly grounded in my Jewish tradition. I have a
Speaker 1: very strong Jewish identity. My father was a rabbi, you know,
Speaker 1: it's been part of my my life. And Santo Dime.
Speaker 1: You know, at the end of the ceremony, they're bringing
Speaker 1: up people you know who have you know, have been
Speaker 1: through a serious thing to put Jesus into their lives.
Speaker 1: And a friend of mine said, Ethan, just relaxed, see
Speaker 1: it as you're creating a vessel for you to enjoy
Speaker 1: this experience. And so that was really it was an
Speaker 1: interesting experience for me. I had met the shaman from
Speaker 1: Rio before. I liked them, you know. Um it was
Speaker 1: you know, fairly strict. You know, men and women separate
Speaker 1: and you have to sit in your chairs and you
Speaker 1: can't cross your legs or your arms. So that was unusual. Um.
Speaker 1: But it was interesting experience and I would shift back
Speaker 1: and forth like as a participant observer. The first time
Speaker 1: I did it, um, which was a years before that,
Speaker 1: maybe fifteen eighteen years ago, was with a friend um
Speaker 1: and in a Barbara who's led many people on their
Speaker 1: ayahuasca experiences. In fact, the way I met Darren Aronovski,
Speaker 1: the movie director who was the producer of my podcast,
Speaker 1: was this fellow Gongo White, was our mutual guide on
Speaker 1: our first trips, and that one that was really remarkable
Speaker 1: experience where I basically I had a sort of telepathic
Speaker 1: connection with somebody, you know, just I. It was actually,
Speaker 1: it's a strange thing you went think would think about
Speaker 1: this on Iowaski experience. But there was a billionaire who
Speaker 1: played a pivotal role in the kind of marijuana legalization movement,
Speaker 1: and I had a very kind of tempestuous relationship with him,
Speaker 1: and he had sort of ritten me off, told people
Speaker 1: he didn't you know, he didn't want to deal with
Speaker 1: me anymore. It was all just kind of a weird
Speaker 1: and a personal thing. But I knew in my heart
Speaker 1: of hearts that there was no way we're going to
Speaker 1: succeed in legalizing marijuana until unless he relaxed and we
Speaker 1: had a partnership. And during the course of that experience,
Speaker 1: I began communicating in a sort of telepathic way, doing
Speaker 1: this kind of emotional scans of him and drafting this
Speaker 1: letter to him in my mind about about love and
Speaker 1: letting go and fathers and sons and all this sort
Speaker 1: of stuff. And I wrote the letter, but nobody saw it,
Speaker 1: and a few days later, out of the blue, he
Speaker 1: calls me and says, Ethan, I'm going to give you
Speaker 1: the money you asked for, and I'm doing this to
Speaker 1: show you I love I love you. And he never
Speaker 1: used that word with me before. So could it be coincidence, sure,
Speaker 1: But the circumstantial, you know, elements of that was just remarkable.
Speaker 1: So so that was um that was a great, beautiful
Speaker 1: experience and actually worked out quite well for my organization
Speaker 1: because it ended up being a million dollars. He came
Speaker 1: through with you. I sometimes joke about, you know, fundraising
Speaker 1: through Ayahuaska, even though that was not my intention going in.
Speaker 1: I think if I had gone into iOS experience thinking
Speaker 1: I want to focus on this, the ayahuasca would have
Speaker 1: kicked the ship out of me. It's just that it
Speaker 1: came up naturally in the way it did that. I
Speaker 1: think it allowed that to happen. So my my mother
Speaker 1: explanation of this phenomenon is that, you know, we have
Speaker 1: this electromagnetic field, right, but they are regulated by the ego,
Speaker 1: but by by this the full mode network. So when
Speaker 1: d MT like Salo Sabin reduced the full mode network,
Speaker 1: they need allow the electromoty field to expand and and
Speaker 1: that's how do you explain why in Burning Man everybody
Speaker 1: experiences incredible telepathic synchronicity. People you want to meet, people
Speaker 1: don't want to meet that it's incredible. How you know?
Speaker 1: My idea is that fifty people or sixty to eighty
Speaker 1: people with reduced the full mode network create these energetic
Speaker 1: highways where people can tap into and make things happen.
Speaker 1: I mean, sounds reasonable to me. I will admit that
Speaker 1: I sometimes spent a lot less time thinking about how
Speaker 1: this actually happens or why, or the sciences. In all
Speaker 1: my studies and work on drug policy, I've typically looked
Speaker 1: at the science or the explanations for what's going on
Speaker 1: and the role the brain, and I say, okay, that's
Speaker 1: for other people to kind of dumb down for me
Speaker 1: and explain. But in terms of why, and then also why,
Speaker 1: I awuaska, I mean, you know, it has more of
Speaker 1: a reputation for the telepathic experience then does I think
Speaker 1: most of the other psychedelics. I mean, the other ones
Speaker 1: have their stories as well, but there seems to be
Speaker 1: something special going on there and maybe it's what you
Speaker 1: described in Carlisle. I don't I don't know. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean for me i Awaska. Yeah, my wife and I
Speaker 1: wed the seven Years practice where we drank it maybe
Speaker 1: five hundred times. You know we where we I mean,
Speaker 1: it's no secret we've been very public about our addictions
Speaker 1: in the past, and you know, we definitely, definitely definitely
Speaker 1: credit ayahuasca. If you know, if we're still together, and
Speaker 1: you know, it was like maybe two or three times
Speaker 1: of years we will go to retreat. There was like
Speaker 1: a couple of shamans we would work with and and
Speaker 1: and you know, we had a lot of reconditioning to do.
Speaker 1: We were both um you know, in the grip of
Speaker 1: addiction and and it helps us a lot. So you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes when you do this gratitude exercise when you have
Speaker 1: to think about event that you know, they have to
Speaker 1: think event when you're that you felt really grateful and
Speaker 1: memory of the mornings after Nyawaska when you keep on
Speaker 1: coming back, when you're really heart open and really connected
Speaker 1: and you see this incredible sunrise and the nature and
Speaker 1: it's it's incredible. Well, you know it's funny, I mean,
Speaker 1: because this goes back to you and I'm meeting right
Speaker 1: at the first World Ayahuaska Congress and I think it
Speaker 1: was two thousand fourteen on the island of Vidisa, where
Speaker 1: you're now living. And I remember you. I think you
Speaker 1: were showing a film there and you and I kind
Speaker 1: of hit it off. And I remember also seeing a
Speaker 1: really interesting film there um with Gabor Mate, the Jungle Prescription. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I guess, but it's one where he was working
Speaker 1: with people who were like engaged in the harmyduction program
Speaker 1: or needle exchange program in Vancouver. So people think about, oh,
Speaker 1: this is just for the wealthy or this and that,
Speaker 1: but it's act he was. I think I thought it
Speaker 1: might have been Aowaska if I remember correctly, with people
Speaker 1: who were really had been struggling with serious addiction. You know. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the potential I mean obviously not
Speaker 1: just the Aawaska, but obviously it's still a cyber and
Speaker 1: d m A and a whole range of others for
Speaker 1: helping people have struggled with addiction and PTSD. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, well, I mean everybody's reading about what's going
Speaker 1: on now in terms of scientific research. For me, it
Speaker 1: makes sense. I know you're not that interested on the neuroscience,
Speaker 1: but you know, when when the ego is reduced because
Speaker 1: suffering comes from this idea of the ego. If if
Speaker 1: you if the ego is subdued, you can associate the
Speaker 1: painful memory, You can detach the painful memory with the emotion.
Speaker 1: So so the addict too has in this loop of pain,
Speaker 1: can as the opportunity of detaching the pain from the memory.
Speaker 1: So the abusive parents, the childhood trauma becomes visible without
Speaker 1: the pain, so you can transcend them. I mean, for sure,
Speaker 1: these compounds are revolutionized in psychiatry. For sure. This is
Speaker 1: this yeah. I mean, just being down at this conference
Speaker 1: in Miami and just seeing the presentations and of course
Speaker 1: following the literature, it's extraordinary was coming out. I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, whether it actually, you know, seriously
Speaker 1: undermine some of the pharmaceutical industry with their daily medications
Speaker 1: for depression and anxiety, all these other sorts of things,
Speaker 1: it would be great. I mean, we have to be
Speaker 1: careful because there will be abuses, there will be problems,
Speaker 1: people are over selling and all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: But I think we're starting off in mostly the right
Speaker 1: place with people looking at this um, how do we
Speaker 1: be responsible about this? And hopefully stupidity and greed will
Speaker 1: not undermine the progress. So so let's talk about that
Speaker 1: for a second. I wanted to keep it on the
Speaker 1: personal experience, but but since we're talking about the medicalization.
Speaker 1: So one of the risks of the of this big
Speaker 1: company is that you know, you can't integration is not scalable.
Speaker 1: So in a capital stic environment where psychedelic company will
Speaker 1: compete for customers, the temptation to cut corners in things
Speaker 1: like the integration. For example, if you you know it's
Speaker 1: going to be cheaper if you have a psychedelic assists
Speaker 1: psychotherapy just for two hours instead of six for the integration.
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's very difficult to you know, we'll
Speaker 1: see how this thing plays out, but we do well.
Speaker 1: I mean, look what's going on with Academy now right.
Speaker 1: You have some very smart and responsible people who are
Speaker 1: doing kedemy, providing kenemine and doing it with proper integration thereafter.
Speaker 1: You know, I think people should look at the website
Speaker 1: of Phil Wolfson, who is one of the godfathers of
Speaker 1: the kenemine therapy, and I've bet a bunch of others
Speaker 1: of late I see these popping all up. But then
Speaker 1: he also run into people who are you know, some
Speaker 1: anesthesiologists or something else who just sees an opportunity to
Speaker 1: make more money and they can get paid a lot
Speaker 1: of money for you know, administering the very expensive version
Speaker 1: of Kenemine that the insurance companies will pay for, even
Speaker 1: though ketteman actually is a very inexpensive drug, and they're
Speaker 1: doing it in a kind of glary lights medical environment.
Speaker 1: Maybe you put the ice shades on, but you come
Speaker 1: out of it. There's not serious integration. So I mean,
Speaker 1: Kennemane gives us and it's short acting, which fits the
Speaker 1: kind of capitalist you know, short amount of time model,
Speaker 1: but kenna means an opportunity to try to get this
Speaker 1: thing right. Um, hopefully we can, uh you know the
Speaker 1: other question, of course, I mean maybe this is just
Speaker 1: perhaps too ambitious. But because the role of the importance
Speaker 1: integration is so important after an experience, and because that
Speaker 1: can also be done in a group setting, you know,
Speaker 1: it begins to present the idea of this encouraging more
Speaker 1: of a group model for this, and I know, you
Speaker 1: know you think about Look one of the upsides of
Speaker 1: the twelve Steps program. I mean, they don't have a
Speaker 1: very high success rate. They have lots of problems but
Speaker 1: they do offer a sense of community for people, which
Speaker 1: is really pivotal. And just in the last week, I've
Speaker 1: heard about three different people and organizations trying to do
Speaker 1: online UM either integration of psycholic experiences or alternately working
Speaker 1: with people struggling with addiction, where they're creating not just
Speaker 1: one on one sessions, but also group sessions. You know,
Speaker 1: one of the silver lines of COVID was it forced
Speaker 1: so much of this stuff to move online where you
Speaker 1: can dramatically reduce costs and it allows people to be
Speaker 1: in a group environment to oftentimes maintain some degree of
Speaker 1: anonymity and comfort UM, but where that community can be
Speaker 1: you know, created, And if you then look at some
Speaker 1: of the potentials around virtual reality of making a community
Speaker 1: you know, feel more intimate than it currently does over
Speaker 1: the internet, but at a much lower cost in terms
Speaker 1: of people having to travel to one place to be somewhere.
Speaker 1: You know, there are some promising things on the horizon.
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of good stuff is going
Speaker 1: to emerge, but there's no way to get rid of
Speaker 1: all the scoundrels in this. But so since let's go
Speaker 1: back to the personal experience the UM. What's your personal
Speaker 1: experience with not I haven't had a lot of it, um,
Speaker 1: but I will say um uh there were two uh
Speaker 1: one some years ago there was a fellow named Sean Haley.
Speaker 1: Did you know Sean Haley at all? Sean, I made
Speaker 1: a lot of money, um, you know Silicon Valley, an
Speaker 1: unusual guy. Um. And then he started experimenting with um
Speaker 1: sort of drug concoctions um. And he was trying to
Speaker 1: deal with his own lifelong depression. And he came up
Speaker 1: with a combination of high dose a Cademy high dose
Speaker 1: d MT low dos kedemine and he began going around
Speaker 1: administering these two friends. And so I did that once
Speaker 1: and that was like like a rocket, you know, and
Speaker 1: I mean for forty five minutes, but almost thought about
Speaker 1: it was almost like a cliff Notes version of a
Speaker 1: of of a of a mushroom experience or something clip.
Speaker 1: So what what what was that dose? It? I don't
Speaker 1: know the actual doors. All I know is the d
Speaker 1: m T was a high dose smoke. Actually it was
Speaker 1: with a needle where intramuscular why a little jab in
Speaker 1: the butt cheek um. And I had told him that
Speaker 1: Sasha Shulguns called called said I was a hardhead. So
Speaker 1: I need an extra dose, so he gave me two shots.
Speaker 1: So it was like a rocket taken off. But then
Speaker 1: after forty five minutes, it was like parachute opens and
Speaker 1: I'm kind of come floating down to earth and I
Speaker 1: stand up. My legs are kind of wobbly from the
Speaker 1: kenemine And a few hours later, I'm going out to
Speaker 1: dinner in a movie, right, so you know, and I
Speaker 1: would say afterwards, for weeks afterwards, I felt like my
Speaker 1: mood was slightly elevated, my sexuality seemed slightly depressed, and
Speaker 1: there was this funny little humming feeling in my forehead
Speaker 1: which wasn't bothers him, but it was just kind of there.
Speaker 1: And so that was one experience. The other one was
Speaker 1: last year a friend of mine who is herself a
Speaker 1: kenemine therapist. UM I did it with her at her
Speaker 1: home and she was there taking here of the music
Speaker 1: and you know a little notebook in case any notes.
Speaker 1: And total was my first time doing a real blindfold,
Speaker 1: and I did it with dissolving a couple of abs
Speaker 1: under my tongue. I realized in retrospect it might have
Speaker 1: been a lot smoother just to do the intramuscular but
Speaker 1: she didn't have that available, and and I was surprised
Speaker 1: how how profound it was, you know, I mean it
Speaker 1: was first of all, I mean, I mean, there was
Speaker 1: I won't go into the longer story, but the key
Speaker 1: thing was there was one moment um where I had
Speaker 1: kind of turned over onto my belly and uh um
Speaker 1: and and and I was almost entering into almost like
Speaker 1: this avatar like environment. And I was underneath like in
Speaker 1: some water, like in a swamp or a lake, and
Speaker 1: it's dark, and I'm thinking, you know, I'm underwater, I
Speaker 1: can't breathe. And then I go, but I'm breathing. And
Speaker 1: then I'm going, it's dark. I can't see anything. This
Speaker 1: is this should be scary. There could be snakes, and
Speaker 1: I realized I'm not scared, and I just keep moving forward.
Speaker 1: And also I go, oh my god, I could pass
Speaker 1: through death like this. And it was the first and
Speaker 1: only time I've had that kind of sensation. And I
Speaker 1: was taking with how gentle it was and only lasted
Speaker 1: for an hour or something like that, but it was
Speaker 1: very gentle. It was even with the high dose mushrooms.
Speaker 1: I hadn't kind of had that, you know, UM escaped
Speaker 1: from the body. But with that ketemy, which I think
Speaker 1: relatively high dose. I don't know what it was, but
Speaker 1: I was told it was a relatively high dose. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I really felt like I kind of left my body
Speaker 1: in a way, or I was sort of in and
Speaker 1: out of it. But in this you know, avatar place
Speaker 1: that turned out to be scary but beautiful. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: like I also had not very meaningful experience. I mean,
Speaker 1: probably not with the right set of set set and settings.
Speaker 1: But actually, yesterday I met a friend who did the
Speaker 1: full three injection in a cleaning here in New York,
Speaker 1: and he said it was the most a bit of
Speaker 1: experience with his life. It was like a heavenly experience.
Speaker 1: It felt it felt heaven. He felt it like abounded compassion,
Speaker 1: stion and and and and this incredible sense of of
Speaker 1: of of abundant compassion and love and sounds amazing. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean you also see him now that it's been
Speaker 1: approved for you know, management of intractable depression, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's very promising. And the fact that you know, until
Speaker 1: a few months ago, it was the only psychedelic that
Speaker 1: the National Student Drug Abuse would give any grants for
Speaker 1: it to research for treating addiction. UM. On my podcast,
Speaker 1: I interviewed a fellow alias Dakwar, professor of Columbia who's
Speaker 1: using a combination of ketamine and mindfulness meditation to treat
Speaker 1: addiction and depression. And so I just think it really
Speaker 1: has enormous potential, and I hope it doesn't get corrupted
Speaker 1: and get a bad reputation because of people being reckless
Speaker 1: and stupid with it. But why do you think I
Speaker 1: meany scheduled three and having scheduled one. Probably first of all,
Speaker 1: the fact that it already had extensive use both UM
Speaker 1: in emergency medicine and wartime medicine and veterinary medicine meant
Speaker 1: that people were already familiar with it. They've been administering
Speaker 1: it to human beings for a very long time. So
Speaker 1: I think that helped make people, you know, feel okay
Speaker 1: about it. I think secondly, the fact that it's relatively
Speaker 1: short acting UM maybe maybe a thing about it. Uh. Thirdly,
Speaker 1: maybe a lower people A lot of people are taking
Speaker 1: lower doses where the kind of psychedelic effect was seen
Speaker 1: as a kind of negative, you know, side effect or
Speaker 1: something like that. But you were dealing with people dealing
Speaker 1: you know, you know, emergency responders who were in parts
Speaker 1: of the kind of world where they don't have opioids
Speaker 1: available using ketamine, or people in the battlefield. So I
Speaker 1: think for all sorts of reasons it kind of got
Speaker 1: in there were tolerated with the psychedelic side was seen
Speaker 1: as just negative side effects, um, whereas these other things.
Speaker 1: And it also did not start off becoming popular in
Speaker 1: the underground. It wasn't It wasn't a creator. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean allstie. You know, I had a early history in
Speaker 1: the fifties early sixties before he got popularized by Timothy
Speaker 1: Leary and others. Um, But mushrooms have always had that
Speaker 1: REQUI anational side to it, so uh, you know. And
Speaker 1: I don't think there were really news reports the people
Speaker 1: jumping off balconies or you know, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So I think we're lucky in that regard that it
Speaker 1: actually was able to get get through. What about some pedro,
Speaker 1: did you have an experience? I've never done something pedro.
Speaker 1: I've never done peyote. You know, maybe that was in
Speaker 1: my future. Uh, what about you? So I've done it?
Speaker 1: Sometimes some shalman will give it to you in the
Speaker 1: morning after then Ayahuaska session to to open your heart
Speaker 1: to like too easy A little bit in the in
Speaker 1: the in the post ayahuasca um I never but but
Speaker 1: recently Nibiza, I did the full on two liters. They
Speaker 1: give you this this I can't remember which tradition is it,
Speaker 1: but where you have the old plant, not just the
Speaker 1: not just the button. I think, no, that's that's anyway.
Speaker 1: It was a type of It was very diluted by
Speaker 1: a lot like you drink this like two litter. You
Speaker 1: keep on drink and drink and drinking. And and it
Speaker 1: was it was you know they always say that, you know,
Speaker 1: the first session is a bit disorienting, and then the
Speaker 1: second time you find your bearing. It was a combination
Speaker 1: of of of LSD and there was something really unusual
Speaker 1: about about it. Then the guy let us going free,
Speaker 1: actually encouraged us to go and walk around, and and
Speaker 1: I remember I was sitting there very confused. I would
Speaker 1: have had this image of of of of some big
Speaker 1: leadies from Louisiana. I don't know. I was really disoriented.
Speaker 1: And so this other person will come by and say,
Speaker 1: remember this is a cactus that it's very hard because
Speaker 1: it lives in the desert. But then there is a
Speaker 1: flower and so that that that comment turned my trip
Speaker 1: into something a little bit more beautiful. But I'm not
Speaker 1: friend with the San Pedro yet. Yeah, you know, I
Speaker 1: learned a lot. You know. I had Michael Power on
Speaker 1: my podcast a few months ago, and his latest book,
Speaker 1: one of the big chapters is on mescaline and and
Speaker 1: he finds it a very powerful experience. I think he
Speaker 1: also makes an important point that, you know, given how
Speaker 1: limited peyote is, and given that there's a really highly
Speaker 1: respected indigenous use of this in a Native American church,
Speaker 1: then unless somebody is specifically invited in by that community
Speaker 1: to do it, that buying large people outside that community
Speaker 1: should generally, you know, not take advantage of used peyote
Speaker 1: that you can get more or less the same thing
Speaker 1: from San Pedro. I mean, it is essentially mescalin as well,
Speaker 1: and do that. Um so I I think I will.
Speaker 1: I'm curious to try Son Pedro and to try mescalind
Speaker 1: I only I only did mescalind once. Um and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, but for me it was something between a
Speaker 1: mushroom and and LSD experience. I don't know if it
Speaker 1: was all that distinctive. Um, it was powerful, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: what about five d MT the toad from the Sonora Desert. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll tell you a friend of mine said,
Speaker 1: I was kind of scared to do it. You know,
Speaker 1: where you smoke it in fifteen minutes, and you know,
Speaker 1: can seem like you know, you know ages and and
Speaker 1: people's you know, you know, with everything, you know, all
Speaker 1: the experiences you hear about the five m O d
Speaker 1: m T, whether it's the toad medicine or the synthetic.
Speaker 1: And you know, people you can argue about whether the
Speaker 1: you know the specialness of the toad medicine as opposed
Speaker 1: to the synthetic, and I get their point about it.
Speaker 1: But anyway, this friend of mine, um, you know, I said, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm ready, and he says, I actually think I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I'm out of the smokable type. Um uh, all I
Speaker 1: have is some snortable five mm e O d m T.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's toad from the toad or synthetic.
Speaker 1: And like, you know, I've never been a cocaine or
Speaker 1: only snort things. But he goes, yeah, and he put
Speaker 1: out too long white lines of this stuff, and I said,
Speaker 1: how long do you think it will last? He goes, why,
Speaker 1: don't have how much experience with it, but you know,
Speaker 1: maybe half hour or so. So I snort these two lines, right,
Speaker 1: And I trusted him because he's got a huge amount
Speaker 1: of experience as a guy. And first of all, it
Speaker 1: burned like hell, I mean really burned, like in my
Speaker 1: scientist you know, cavities and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: And finally it's settled down. But I'll tell you five
Speaker 1: hours later, like I'm lying down there. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm sort of still in my body. I don't go
Speaker 1: through the ego dissolution or whatever that is, you know,
Speaker 1: but it was like a kind of different version of
Speaker 1: a mushroom trip. At one point, my energy is shooting
Speaker 1: out of my legs. I mean, I mean afterwards, you know,
Speaker 1: my host said, you know, were you doing candalini exercises?
Speaker 1: I said, like, what's contalini? You know, I don't what
Speaker 1: you may not know what it is, but you were
Speaker 1: looking like you were doing it right there. And then
Speaker 1: literally five hours later, I'm coming out of it and
Speaker 1: I get up to talk to my friends and I
Speaker 1: sound like what I could not I actually pronounced my words,
Speaker 1: and I was until the next morning that I could
Speaker 1: actually get out like talk normally again. And even then
Speaker 1: I felt like I had to drive back to another
Speaker 1: friend's house. I felt disoriented in terms of I could
Speaker 1: drive safely, but where I was was kind of been down.
Speaker 1: So it was a strange and u experience. And and
Speaker 1: I don't know that this is about about four years ago. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say about it. Really. I
Speaker 1: do think I need to try the fift you know,
Speaker 1: smokeable version and try to telling medicine. Um. That sounds
Speaker 1: like people have described wonderful things about it, but some
Speaker 1: people say it's taken them a good weeks or month
Speaker 1: to fully get back to some form of yes. Yes.
Speaker 1: For me, it was one of the most beautiful experience
Speaker 1: of my life. And I did it in the perfect
Speaker 1: condition because you know, we have a man group. It's
Speaker 1: ten of us. Every year we spent five days mostly
Speaker 1: during Ayahuaska during the day as a personal experience, but
Speaker 1: also as a collective. We would then share and and
Speaker 1: so at the end of day five, when we already
Speaker 1: have this strong morpho genetic field of of of you know,
Speaker 1: support of our friends, then we did we did this.
Speaker 1: We smoked the toad and and you feel very safe.
Speaker 1: It was like in a temple in England. Then it's
Speaker 1: like if I don't do it now, I don't know
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do it. We were, you know, we
Speaker 1: were like five days working together. There was all this
Speaker 1: strong bond and it was it was it was like
Speaker 1: one of us says, touching the heart of God, you
Speaker 1: felt really catapulted in heaven, in this blue light where
Speaker 1: you have this sense of forgiveness and compassion and the
Speaker 1: closest thing to happen. Wow. Wow, I look forward to it.
Speaker 1: It's funny. At this conference and I was said in Miami,
Speaker 1: Mike Tyson was there and just singing the praises of
Speaker 1: the toad medicine. You know, I've heard other people just
Speaker 1: talking about how for them that's gonna they feel it's
Speaker 1: going to be their go to substance for the rest
Speaker 1: of their lives. We'll try the other ones and whatever,
Speaker 1: they'll do them, but that five m e oh is
Speaker 1: the one that really spoke to him. It's funny because
Speaker 1: I don't really feel the need to revisit that. It's interesting,
Speaker 1: you know, I would, I would do other things, but
Speaker 1: that's so precious. I don't know, So why don't we
Speaker 1: conclude with them with normal D empty except the couple
Speaker 1: of injection you had. Did you ever had the smoke?
Speaker 1: NORMALM No? I mean actually the one we could talk
Speaker 1: about is two C B. Yeah, because um, that was
Speaker 1: when I thought I was gonna do it a few
Speaker 1: weeks ago, but it turned out not to happen. But
Speaker 1: I did it a number of times about twenty years
Speaker 1: ago or so. Um and uh. The funny thing about
Speaker 1: about to ce bit is is the kind of um
Speaker 1: odd impact in terms of drugs set and setting that
Speaker 1: the book by Sasha and Shilgin Peakal. You know their books,
Speaker 1: Pet Peakal fin Athletes, I Don't in Love. There's a
Speaker 1: little section there about two C B and and describes
Speaker 1: the experience under whose pseudonym of taking the two C
Speaker 1: B and lapsing into the most devastating self critical ego
Speaker 1: wipe outing, horrible, feel terrible about yourself. I mean, just
Speaker 1: just a nightmarish experience and just wallowing and not knowing
Speaker 1: what to do. And then Sasha or pseudonym appears at
Speaker 1: the door and this beaming light emerges and the thing
Speaker 1: begins to transform. And the next thing that happens is
Speaker 1: she is having the most multi orgasmic experience with him
Speaker 1: that she that she's ever had. And and so you
Speaker 1: read that and you go, okay, like multi orgasmic experience,
Speaker 1: let's let's do it, right, um. But in point of fact,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll tell you, I mean this is actually
Speaker 1: after my marriage, I met this beautiful woman a journalists
Speaker 1: American journalists have grown up in Europe. It was in
Speaker 1: Paris in the early mid nineties. And I went back
Speaker 1: to visit her about a month later, and and we
Speaker 1: did M D M A together and it was beautiful.
Speaker 1: And she lived near the Plus Devotion in Paris and
Speaker 1: an old you know building the air that had been modernized.
Speaker 1: And but I remember we went out and everything was
Speaker 1: gorgeous and beautiful, and and we came back and we
Speaker 1: were in the vegetable of her apartment building, like you
Speaker 1: know how somebody want to stand on corners, like people
Speaker 1: won't go stand on a shell from me. I was
Speaker 1: doing this stuff, filling up the space, and then we
Speaker 1: went upstairs. It was just loving and beautiful and all this,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just great. Anyway, two days later, I said,
Speaker 1: let's try the two CV. So we do the two CB.
Speaker 1: We retrace our steps right and it's like, what's this?
Speaker 1: And God, that needs to be fixed and that's that.
Speaker 1: And it was this kind of critical mode and I
Speaker 1: realized it was this critical you know, like and then
Speaker 1: and then we finally come back and I look at
Speaker 1: the vegetable which looks so marvelous under you know, M
Speaker 1: D M A, and I'm going, who are designed it?
Speaker 1: You know? And then we go upstairs, um, and we
Speaker 1: started relaxing and we start making love. And I remember
Speaker 1: about the love making was that was that it was
Speaker 1: that that my tactile sense was didn't feel right, it
Speaker 1: felt almost clammy. But that the said, the different sensations
Speaker 1: of sex were almost colorized in a really and so
Speaker 1: there was some depth and specialness to the sexual encounter
Speaker 1: all of that. So that was But I mean, after that,
Speaker 1: I realized, Eathan, don't do two c B with your lover, right,
Speaker 1: this is the drug. Take it by yourself, right. It's
Speaker 1: like doing a lower dose mushroom for me. And when
Speaker 1: you want to kick the ship out of yourself, you know,
Speaker 1: do it that way. And so I did it. One time.
Speaker 1: I was in Venice and I was just broken up
Speaker 1: actually with this woman, and I was you know, I
Speaker 1: was a rainy February day in Venice, and I remember
Speaker 1: just going down, like walking around Venice by myself and
Speaker 1: going to the Jewish ghetto and feel having a very
Speaker 1: spiritual connection with it, the Jewish Ghetto in Venice. And
Speaker 1: then another time back home in New York. I've never
Speaker 1: liked the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and I decided I'm
Speaker 1: gonna examine my prejudices. So I took the two c
Speaker 1: b this girlfriend and given me a pigskin vest. Now
Speaker 1: I still keep kosher, right, so that it felt like
Speaker 1: a little passive aggressive or giving me a pigskin vessel,
Speaker 1: like technically Jews can wear pigskin, right, Um, I put
Speaker 1: the pigskin vest down, I can ready did something else.
Speaker 1: I walked across the park from my where I live
Speaker 1: on the airports side to the museum. I went to
Speaker 1: the museum, which I you know, I don't generally like
Speaker 1: when I would see an exhibit like twelve century medieval tapestries,
Speaker 1: which I would never go to. I go to it, right,
Speaker 1: and it was a little more interesting because the tapestries
Speaker 1: were kind of going up and down the ceiling because
Speaker 1: I was loosening a little bit. But I actually had
Speaker 1: a chance to spend the whole afternoon in the museum
Speaker 1: at the quote unquote Sasha museum level dose, you know,
Speaker 1: beginning to get a feeling about what why did I
Speaker 1: like this place? And what might I like? And and
Speaker 1: with my aesthetic sensibilities were enhanced and so for me
Speaker 1: to see b was really the one for intensive, you know,
Speaker 1: pretty hard nosed, you know, critical self examination. And then
Speaker 1: I kind of lost my source to it, and uh,
Speaker 1: haven't done it in the last couple of decades, but
Speaker 1: I'm definitely keen to try it again. Interesting. Interesting, So
Speaker 1: let me ask you the reason why I was asking
Speaker 1: you d MT s because do you remember ricks Trust
Speaker 1: money in the in the in the eighties, they did
Speaker 1: this clinical trial injecting the MT to a bunch of
Speaker 1: a healthy volunteer I think, and and and basically they
Speaker 1: find some similarities in terms of the entities that the
Speaker 1: volunteer would encounter. And so now the Imperial College accountant
Speaker 1: too much because it's it's still under under. It's it's
Speaker 1: still under They just they just started administrating the trial
Speaker 1: those but they're basing using a I V machine to
Speaker 1: put the volunteer into d MT dose for much longer
Speaker 1: than the ten minutes. And so this idea of of
Speaker 1: the sponsor is that you know, maybe that compound would
Speaker 1: allow access to these beings, that they might be independent
Speaker 1: and sent an independent center, beings that we more time
Speaker 1: you can develop a relationship. And what do you think
Speaker 1: about this? I don't know. I mean, look for me,
Speaker 1: you know the notion of this, you know, as witnessed
Speaker 1: by my experience with very high dose mushrooms or the
Speaker 1: high dose d MT, I don't seem to go through
Speaker 1: this ego dissolution stuff. I seem to retain my sense
Speaker 1: of being present in my body with the exception of
Speaker 1: that brief academy and experience last year. Um. And it
Speaker 1: may be because I haven't really done it with the
Speaker 1: blindfold on, and maybe that might make the difference. Um.
Speaker 1: No entities, not that I can recall. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: not seeing jaguars. I'm not seeing entities. I'm not doing
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. I'm not going through horrifying loss
Speaker 1: of dissolution of identity. UM. I seem to me, it's
Speaker 1: it's this, it's a way of of of of doing
Speaker 1: things to my mind and my body that are just
Speaker 1: just creating new connections and thoughts and things and all
Speaker 1: of this that that that that just feels kind of
Speaker 1: life affirming and once in a while scary and hard. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, I wonder about that because I hear
Speaker 1: about people go through the e and you know, and
Speaker 1: part of this I think I've always I don't think
Speaker 1: I've lived with much trauma in my life. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's been a few things, you know, but uh, but
Speaker 1: I don't know why that is. And maybe I'm just
Speaker 1: I'm a very grounded person. And so I wonder if
Speaker 1: the day will come when I do high dose hiahuasca
Speaker 1: or d m T in the more pure form or
Speaker 1: something where I actually go through that we'll see. And
Speaker 1: we've been together an hour. You've been so generous with
Speaker 1: your personal story and sharing your your intimate situation. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. I should also just say, I mean,
Speaker 1: what I also love is the fact that here it
Speaker 1: is in late the world appears to be going in
Speaker 1: some very dangerous and scary places. But one of the
Speaker 1: nice things that's happening is that you and I can
Speaker 1: talk openly about this and do it for other people,
Speaker 1: for strangers to listen to, and to do it without
Speaker 1: real fear, you know, I mean the willing the ability
Speaker 1: of people to be in talking first about their own
Speaker 1: cannabis use a few years ago and now about psychedelic use.
Speaker 1: It's really represents, you know, a transformation or society. There's
Speaker 1: a coming out, not unlike what happened with gay people
Speaker 1: being able to come out over time. And you know,
Speaker 1: I live. I realized there's always the possibility that the
Speaker 1: forces of repression will try to shove this genie back
Speaker 1: in the bottle and try to hurt some of us
Speaker 1: who have spoken out and come out, because we know
Speaker 1: historically those things, these things do go in waves and
Speaker 1: things can go backwards. Um, so I think we need
Speaker 1: to be careful. But you know, I'm you and I
Speaker 1: are both out there speaking openly about these things, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, none of us. We're all talking about our
Speaker 1: own personal consumption. We're not talking about selling these things
Speaker 1: or making money from them illegally or things like that.
Speaker 1: For me, the podcast has just been a blast because
Speaker 1: I'm having all these wonderful people on. You know, it
Speaker 1: might be Andrew Wild and Michael Pollen, it might be
Speaker 1: the academic doing a cannemine research. It was former you know,
Speaker 1: the U. S. Senator Chuck Schumer, you know, who's the
Speaker 1: majority leader, talking to him about his marijuana legalization bill.
Speaker 1: I had the former president of Colombia, the country Wamali
Speaker 1: Ol Santos, who won the Nobel Peace Prize five years ago.
Speaker 1: I had the head of National Student on Drug Abuse,
Speaker 1: Nora Vocal, who used to run away from me and
Speaker 1: now she's willing to be on my podcast. I've had
Speaker 1: some activists and some brilliant journalists and you know, so
Speaker 1: it's everything from talking having conversations like the one you
Speaker 1: and I are having here too, talking to politicians, talking
Speaker 1: to I had the District Attorney of Philadelphia, who's a
Speaker 1: progressive DA. So it's really spanning the spectrum. And the
Speaker 1: question for me is whether there will be an audience
Speaker 1: of people who want to hear one day about ketamine
Speaker 1: therapy and the next day about the politics of marijuana bill,
Speaker 1: the next day about the overdose crisis in America, and
Speaker 1: the next day about how New York legalized marijuana, the
Speaker 1: next day about the head of the U. S. Government's
Speaker 1: you know, drug Research funding Agency. But I think I'm
Speaker 1: I'm meeting more and more people strangers coming up to
Speaker 1: me not just in the US, but in Europe and elsewhere, saying, wow,
Speaker 1: I listen to your podcast, and so I'm I'm feeling
Speaker 1: optimistic that there's going to be an audience. And you know,
Speaker 1: I'm very grateful that Darren Aronovski, the movie director, reached
Speaker 1: out to me. I knew him a little bit from
Speaker 1: the Drug Policy Alliance days. He said, you want to
Speaker 1: do a podcast in the psychedelics. I said, no, I
Speaker 1: want to do one in all drugs. He said, let's
Speaker 1: do it, and then he had teamed up with My Heart.
Speaker 1: So he's made a lot of famous movies, but this
Speaker 1: is his first podcast venture. So it's a good team.
Speaker 1: It's professional. It means there's commercials on it, which I
Speaker 1: don't like, but that's the model. Um and uh. I
Speaker 1: can see I can see him behind the scene, because
Speaker 1: you're always looking a little bit for the conflicts. You know,
Speaker 1: you'll find a way to disagree with your guests. I
Speaker 1: see dar and behind saying you know you need the coach. No,
Speaker 1: actually he didn't need. He never said anything like that.
Speaker 1: As I say in the opening episode, I am a
Speaker 1: contrarian deep down, and I think also that to have
Speaker 1: a podcast where you I mostly had people on there
Speaker 1: who I'm who I've learned from, who I generally agree with.
Speaker 1: But he can get boring if you were just agree
Speaker 1: And therefore I see it's my role to play Devil's advocate.
Speaker 1: It's my role to challenge them, um even if I
Speaker 1: agree with them, and to say, how do you respond
Speaker 1: to the critics who say this, um so. I think
Speaker 1: that's part of what makes it more interesting amazing. Thank
Speaker 1: you very much. What's the name of the podcast and
Speaker 1: where they can find it again? It's called Psychoactive and
Speaker 1: it is on all the major platforms. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Was a pleasure to chat with you. Good luck with
Speaker 1: this podcast as well, and I look forward to seeing
Speaker 1: you one of these days and visa for sure, come
Speaker 1: and visit. Thank you very much. Focus so natas so
Speaker 1: no noond cock so nata so nana irond go god
Speaker 1: so nata sona go God so Nata so nat go
Speaker 1: god so not so not go God so na son.
Speaker 1: Next week I'll be talking with Professor Neil Carrier at
Speaker 1: the University of Bristol in the UK about cut the
Speaker 1: fascinating drug plant from the Horn of Africa and Yemen.
Speaker 1: A friend of mine actually had a really really nice
Speaker 1: way of describing the effects of CAT as being something
Speaker 1: that if you sit down in an armchair and you're
Speaker 1: not quite comfortable, but then suddenly you just shift your
Speaker 1: body and you find that place where you know your
Speaker 1: body is completely comfortable. CAT seems to be a little
Speaker 1: bit like that. It is quite a quite a subtle effect.
Speaker 1: You know that, the way it makes you makes you feel,
Speaker 1: but it you know it. It is quite a quite
Speaker 1: a pleasant substance. Subscribe to Psychoactive now see it all,
Speaker 1: miss it