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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today we're gonna

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Speaker 1: bring you a holiday bonus episode instead of our regular series.

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Speaker 1: In this case, I'm being interviewed for someone else's podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's a friend of mine, gian Carlo kind of s

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Speaker 1: c O, who has a podcast called Mango dot tv. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He asked me to be the first guest in a

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Speaker 1: series he has started called Psychedelic Confessions, in which he

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Speaker 1: interviews various people in the field. I think Dennis McKenna

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Speaker 1: was on at some others who you may have heard

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Speaker 1: on Psychoactive, and in it we reflect on our respective

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Speaker 1: experiences with psychedelics, with with psilocybin, mushrooms, and LSD and ayahuasca,

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Speaker 1: mescal and kennamine, d M T M, d M A,

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Speaker 1: cannabis and others. So, as you can imagine, this was

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Speaker 1: perhaps one of my most personal interviews. I really think

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Speaker 1: you'll enjoy it. Now, before go taking you there, I

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Speaker 1: just want to remind you that the second season of

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Speaker 1: Psychoactive will come to an end in late January three.

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Speaker 1: At that point I'll be looking for new sponsors so

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Speaker 1: we can keep the podcast going and get it up

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Speaker 1: and going again later in the year. So in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: if you've enjoyed Psychoactive, please take this opportunity to spread

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Speaker 1: the word to friends and colleagues, encourage them to listen

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Speaker 1: to it, to download it, leave your comments Wherever you

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Speaker 1: leave comments about podcast, uh, feel free to send me

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Speaker 1: your own comments to either the Psychoactive email address or

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Speaker 1: to Ethan at Nadelman dot net. I'll do my best

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Speaker 1: to respond. And here you go with an episode of

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Speaker 1: psychelic Confessions and Giancarlo kind of SCIO's Mango TV podcast.

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Speaker 1: O God so Nata Nana go go so Nata So

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Speaker 1: Nana go God, So Nata so not go Gods or

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Speaker 1: Nata son go God or nota so not orient go god,

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Speaker 1: so nata so not a. Hello guys, Welcome to the

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Speaker 1: seventh episode of the Mango TV podcast. I'm here with

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Speaker 1: another One. Very excited for this conversation, described by Rolling

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Speaker 1: Stones as the point meant for drug policy reform efforts

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Speaker 1: and the real drugs are Another Man is widely regarded

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Speaker 1: as the outstanding proponent of drug policy reform, both in

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Speaker 1: the United States and abroad. He founded and directed first

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Speaker 1: the Linden Smith Center and then the Drug Policy Alliance,

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Speaker 1: from during which time he and his colleagues were at

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Speaker 1: the forefront of dozens of successful campaign to legal as

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Speaker 1: marijuana and advanced other alternatives to the War on drugs.

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Speaker 1: Ethan currently also the leading podcast on all things drugs

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Speaker 1: called Psychoactive. Welcome with and It's a pleasure. So I

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Speaker 1: would like to propose you something different. Rather than me

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Speaker 1: asking questions on your expertise on on drug policy, I

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Speaker 1: would like your help to educate our audience on a

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Speaker 1: bunch of different psychoactive drugs. I want to premise that

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Speaker 1: people listening don't do these drugs alone. Find a guide

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Speaker 1: for the sitter, like you wouldn't go on top of

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Speaker 1: a volcano. Alone, so be mindful. Some of the substances

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Speaker 1: are illegal, some can be very can give very adverse reactions,

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Speaker 1: so be educated and have a have a have an

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Speaker 1: expert guide. So I choose twelve compounds, and we're gonna

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Speaker 1: see if we can go through all of them and

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Speaker 1: and just share our our experience. UM, I want to

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Speaker 1: add two variables. So one thing people usually underestimated when

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Speaker 1: they talk about psychedelic drug effect is the dosage. So

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Speaker 1: some of this compound have a very different effect. So

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Speaker 1: we're gonna try to be mindful of when we talk

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Speaker 1: about the effect UM in in in being clear if

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Speaker 1: it's low, medium or hideos. And then the other thing

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Speaker 1: we have to be mindful when we talk about this

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Speaker 1: UM this compound is the intention. So what are we

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Speaker 1: looking to att eve? Do we want recreational or celebration outcome?

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Speaker 1: Do we want a medical or sako therapetical session, or

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Speaker 1: do we want a spiritual transcendental session? So UM, let

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Speaker 1: me tell, let me tell you the compound I choose,

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Speaker 1: and let me know if you think I should we

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Speaker 1: should remove or at something. So I have for you

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Speaker 1: to discuss today Cannabis, marijuana, mushroom, l S, d M,

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Speaker 1: d M A ayahuasca, pot, some M katamine, cambo, and

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Speaker 1: t C B. Huh okay, Well, I have never done peyote. Um,

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Speaker 1: I've done escaland ones, but you know, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it's all that different from me than having done mushrooms,

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Speaker 1: um tambo. I've been offered it to it, and I

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Speaker 1: somehow the notion of purging in the way that tambo

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Speaker 1: does I turned away from that. And I haven't done

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Speaker 1: some pedro either, So I think the the other ones

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Speaker 1: I have anything ranging from a single experience to half

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Speaker 1: dozen many years ago to much more recent experience. Right,

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Speaker 1: So let's start from the beginning. So marijuana, what's your

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Speaker 1: favorite use? How tell us a little your your relationship

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Speaker 1: with that plant. Well, I mean I'll tell you first

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Speaker 1: of all, that has been marijuana has been basically my

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Speaker 1: friend for many years. I didn't start until I was

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Speaker 1: eighteen years old. I'm now sixty four, so you know,

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Speaker 1: we've been friends for forty six years, and I say

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Speaker 1: it's been an overwhelmingly positive relationship. I should preface that

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Speaker 1: first by saying, I know people for who marijuana is

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Speaker 1: a terrible relationship, People who not just become paranoid but

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Speaker 1: become delusional. So, you know, people who become addicted to

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Speaker 1: it in a way that's problematic in their lives. So

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say marijuana's for everybody. I'm lucky

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Speaker 1: and that virtually all my drug relationships have been generally

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Speaker 1: or almost entirely positive. So but I understand that's not

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Speaker 1: the case for everybody else but marijuana. I mean, I've

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Speaker 1: never been a daily consumer. I mean, there might be

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Speaker 1: moments when I'm at a festival or with a certain

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Speaker 1: friends who gets high every day, and I might smoke

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Speaker 1: multiple days in a row, but I almost have an

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Speaker 1: anti addictive personality. So if I smoked three for days

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Speaker 1: in a row, like, I don't want to even smoke

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Speaker 1: the following day, you know, I just want to clear out.

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Speaker 1: What I like is if I if I've not smoked

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Speaker 1: marijuana for a week or two or more, the first

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Speaker 1: time I do it, it's delicious, right, and especially good marijuana.

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Speaker 1: And what happens to me is I start to stretch.

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Speaker 1: I get this incredible desire to stretch and to be

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Speaker 1: in my body. I remember it was funny when I

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Speaker 1: was younger. I might be walking along my daughter down

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Speaker 1: the streets in Manhattan, and she would be so embarrassed

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Speaker 1: when I was in the middle of the road, I'd

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Speaker 1: stop and stretch. You know. Now she's growing accustomed to it.

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Speaker 1: But marijuana, it helps me get in my body. I

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Speaker 1: love it with things like um uh, swimming, I mean that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, we all know about marijuana and food.

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Speaker 1: We know about marijuana, go in the movies. You know, marijuana,

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Speaker 1: including edible form. For going to the symphony has been beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Um for me the least developed of my sensibilities. You know,

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Speaker 1: food tastes, sense and all that is my aesthetic sensibility.

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Speaker 1: So for me, getting high before I go to a

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Speaker 1: museum really significantly elevates the experience. I have a vivid

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Speaker 1: memory of being in Prague and going to this house

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Speaker 1: in Prague that was the museum of a famous turn

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Speaker 1: of the century, you know, check artists who have done

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Speaker 1: in all sorts of forms, and just being captivated in

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Speaker 1: a way that I never would have without the marijuana.

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Speaker 1: But when it comes to the present day, my typical

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Speaker 1: use of marijuana now, my favorite juse is once a

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Speaker 1: week when I'm home in New York, I take ten

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Speaker 1: milligrams of edible marijuana, grab my headphones and head down

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Speaker 1: to the corner where there's a Chinese massage place, and

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Speaker 1: I have a multi hour massage and for very deep massage,

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Speaker 1: you know, walking on the backs of my legs and

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Speaker 1: my sides. And for me, I think that keeps me centered.

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Speaker 1: It's my own basis, my closest thing I have to

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Speaker 1: a real irritation in my life. My brain just floats.

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Speaker 1: I come out of there feeling great, and I think

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Speaker 1: of it as an integral part of my process of

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Speaker 1: healthy aging. Amazing, amazing and and and for me it's complicated.

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Speaker 1: You know, I had a problem of abuse. I end

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Speaker 1: up being in a rehability. I went on a rehab

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Speaker 1: for wheat. Yeah, they were there. Everybody was like why

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Speaker 1: you here. Crystal met the heroine, crack, cocaine and alcohol,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, kind of bit and you know

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Speaker 1: it's for me. It was very difficult to use without abuse.

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Speaker 1: And the Graham Hackck says that every plant has a spirit,

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Speaker 1: and every spirit as a personality. So the myaska as

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Speaker 1: the loving grandmother, the or the boga is the stern grandfather,

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Speaker 1: and the marijuana is the trickster spirit. So it tricks

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Speaker 1: you in belief that you needed every day and and

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Speaker 1: so so it's a it's a it's a tricky one. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what about mushrooms. So just for our audience, a typical

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Speaker 1: load dose of mushrooms, I mean in the of those. Now,

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Speaker 1: there is also the micro dose, which is very popular,

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Speaker 1: which is the James Fatima protocol of zero twenties, zero

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Speaker 1: fifteen just pre perceptional, uh, one day every three days.

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Speaker 1: Um So this is becoming very popular now. But the

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Speaker 1: low dos is roughly I would say half a gram.

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Speaker 1: A medium dose also called museum those is like maybe

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Speaker 1: a two grams, and then high dose is when we

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Speaker 1: go into you know, five plus into full ego dissolution.

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Speaker 1: Um So, tell us about your relationship. I'll tell you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, for me, I've rarely done the low dos.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the first time I ever really did it. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there was a friend of mine having a fiftieth birthday

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Speaker 1: party whose name happens to be Gi and Carlo Canevstia.

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Speaker 1: And at that party, he he was making available to

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Speaker 1: his guests some chocolate, you know, mushrooms at about one

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Speaker 1: graham half a gram one graham, and I think some

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Speaker 1: other substances maybe chocolate cannabis as well, and I had

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Speaker 1: I just perfect dose. And I will say I danced

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Speaker 1: that night like I don't think I've ever danced in

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Speaker 1: my life. I had a spectacular time at your birthday party,

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Speaker 1: Jen Carle, and I came away going I didn't know

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Speaker 1: mushrooms could be so much fun in the low dose,

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Speaker 1: and so you know. But then, quite frankly, a few

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, I was in Europe um and uh I

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Speaker 1: actually it was, I'll say, in Scandinavia. I want to

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Speaker 1: see the exact city, and somebody was offering chocolate mushrooms

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Speaker 1: and I took it out about the same dose, thinking

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Speaker 1: I was going to go to a place with a

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Speaker 1: wonderful DJ and let loose and dance, and it turned

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Speaker 1: out to be a whole bunch of people standing around

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Speaker 1: an ugly looking bar type thing, and I just had

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Speaker 1: a you know, get through it finds, you know, somebody

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Speaker 1: I could talk to and focus on them and just

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Speaker 1: not be too bummed out about the whole thing. So

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Speaker 1: I'm increasingly intrigued by that, um, the lower dose use

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Speaker 1: of mushrooms, maybe combined with with some cannabis um for

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Speaker 1: you know, having fun. That said almost My entire experience

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Speaker 1: with mushrooms has been the high dos. It's been the

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Speaker 1: four or five six grams of mariana, of mushrooms, of

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Speaker 1: dry mushrooms. And I started when I was about twenty three.

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Speaker 1: I must have done them about ten times back then,

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Speaker 1: and they have played an incredibly important role in my life.

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Speaker 1: So blindfolded with the headson, I never have done them blindfold.

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Speaker 1: And I have friends who told me, if you haven't

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Speaker 1: done on blindfold, you haven't really done them. But I

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Speaker 1: would tend to do them, um, going out maybe in nature,

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Speaker 1: maybe at the beach, maybe going outside to come on

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Speaker 1: and then coming back to my apartment or my friend

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Speaker 1: a friend's place. Um. But I'll tell you if I

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Speaker 1: think about, let's say I've done mushrooms at a high

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Speaker 1: dose maybe twenty five times in my life. And then

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Speaker 1: if you take the the say, the four hours between

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Speaker 1: the time when you're peaking and then when the kind

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Speaker 1: of you start to come down. Um, in those hundred

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Speaker 1: hours of my life, I have had some of the

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Speaker 1: most important sort of uh intellectual insights of my life.

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Speaker 1: I used to be a professor that really made a

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Speaker 1: difference to me. I've had the most amazing culinary experience

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Speaker 1: of my life. I had what, in some respects was

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Speaker 1: the most extraordinary orgasm of my life. I saw the

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Speaker 1: most beautiful sunset of my life. And and the moment

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Speaker 1: um when I was thirty two and actually had to

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Speaker 1: tell your ride Mushroom conferencing in Colorado that Andrew Wild

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Speaker 1: used to organize with others. Um, you know, I had

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Speaker 1: a moment there which where my sort of vision of

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Speaker 1: what my life was going to be, this life in

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Speaker 1: drug policy reform sort of crystallized for me. You know.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't an epiphany, but it really crystallized in that way.

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Speaker 1: And so I'd say, mushrooms have just played this really

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Speaker 1: really powerful um uh, you know, spiritual, intellectual, psychological, social

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Speaker 1: role in my life. So that there was a there

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Speaker 1: was if you want, like an ARC on those twenty

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Speaker 1: five session, would you go back to where you left? Then?

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Speaker 1: Then on EA, what's funny you asked that? Because I

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Speaker 1: did it I think nine times between the age of

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Speaker 1: twenty three and and uh, And that was and then,

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Speaker 1: you know, very good experiences, overwhelmingly no bad, no bad ones,

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Speaker 1: although I do have two bad ones I could talk about.

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Speaker 1: But then what happened was the last one of these experiences.

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Speaker 1: I was twenty five. I was, you know, approaching the

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Speaker 1: end of a long term relationship that I've been in

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Speaker 1: was since the beginning of college. I was trying to

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Speaker 1: think through what my focus was going to be in life.

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Speaker 1: Was I going to become an activist or become an academic.

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Speaker 1: Was I going to keep studying what was in my

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Speaker 1: specialty Middle East politics or go into something news is

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Speaker 1: Right before I got into the drug thing, and at

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Speaker 1: the remember the mushrooms came on and I started muttering

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Speaker 1: like conflict, conflict. I was just muttering conflict. I was

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Speaker 1: soon this energy coursing through my body, but just feeling

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Speaker 1: conflict conflict. Anyway, my life changed quite a bit. I

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Speaker 1: shifted my focus, change relationships, met the woman was going

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Speaker 1: to become my wife. Did not do mushrooms for seven years,

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Speaker 1: and then until your right, for seven years. I take

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Speaker 1: them for the first time in seven years, and the

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Speaker 1: drug starts to come on fairly strong, and it's like

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Speaker 1: just jumping right back to her I had been seven

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Speaker 1: years earlier, like conflict gods like. But then the thing

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Speaker 1: I started to get up And sometimes when the emotional

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Speaker 1: energy is coming on very strong at that high dose.

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Speaker 1: I like to be very physical, so I started running

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Speaker 1: through this field. It was actually to tell your right

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Speaker 1: high school on a summer weekend, right, and and and running, running,

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Speaker 1: getting all the energy going. And then the constantly kind

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Speaker 1: of dissolved. And it was in that session that I

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Speaker 1: really reached the realization that, you know, that my life

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Speaker 1: was really going to be about teaching about drugs, about

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Speaker 1: psychoactive drugs, and then it did not matter whether I

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Speaker 1: stayed in the university or went into politics or journalism

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Speaker 1: or advocacy, but that this was going to be my

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Speaker 1: calling in life, and that teaching about drugs would be

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Speaker 1: a vehicle for speaking out about some of the broader

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Speaker 1: issues that we were confronting in our socim and use company.

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Speaker 1: For me, it was just it was just a settling.

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Speaker 1: It was a centering that was very beautiful and very calming.

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Speaker 1: A few weeks later, well a week later less than that,

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Speaker 1: I went into It was a TV show, Dan Rather

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Speaker 1: forty eight hours on Crack Street or whatever is one

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Speaker 1: of these, you know, in the height of the drug one,

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Speaker 1: and I walked in. I realized it's a set up.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's somebody who's been devastated by drugs and

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Speaker 1: a d agent and so you know, and there's all

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Speaker 1: set up, but I just centered right down. And for me,

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Speaker 1: you know, I've never looked back since that moment. I've

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Speaker 1: known that this was my calling in life. And I

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Speaker 1: feel quite blessed to have realized this. It's such a

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Speaker 1: young but because I think, you know, Michael Poland, compared

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Speaker 1: to the full moder network that we now know is

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Speaker 1: the neurocircuitry that gets subdued with the trip to means,

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Speaker 1: so including magic mushroom, and Michael Poland says, is the

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Speaker 1: closest thing to your egoic armor. And he says that

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Speaker 1: it's like the director of the orchestra of your brain

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Speaker 1: who then fall asleep. So for the first time, all

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Speaker 1: the different instruments are now free to be them now independent,

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Speaker 1: So there is not the the structure of your conditioning,

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Speaker 1: cultural conditioning, of your biography. So in that moment, you

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Speaker 1: are really allowed to see who you are without this

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Speaker 1: armor of of your ego. You know, it's interesting. I mean,

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Speaker 1: for me, I don't know that I ever achieve ego dissolution,

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Speaker 1: even with a very high dose mushrooms. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know I'm told that I look psychotic and I can't

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Speaker 1: be out in public. I'm sort of walking around. My

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Speaker 1: arms are flying and my eyes look demonic. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, so I have my my partner who's with me,

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Speaker 1: and she's you know, watching out for me. And in

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Speaker 1: this sort of stuff. Um, it's it's extremely intense, but

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Speaker 1: it's very in the body, and I sometimes think of mushrooms.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like putting a power pack on my back,

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Speaker 1: and that power pack like like you're gonna fly, like

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Speaker 1: you know those all things, you know, the cartoons or

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Speaker 1: whatever puts a power pack on their on their back

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Speaker 1: and they can go fly. And it's like I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: be out there flying in a way, but grounded. And

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Speaker 1: it can go into an intellectual, a spiritual, a sexual,

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Speaker 1: a physical direction and I can guide it a bit,

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Speaker 1: but I can't control it. And if I try to

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Speaker 1: assert my will too much, the mushrooms will funk with me.

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Speaker 1: So I have to you know, I'm going there. I

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Speaker 1: don't go in typically with a lot of intent. It's

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Speaker 1: more like, let's see what's brewing inside me and what

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Speaker 1: these mushrooms will bring out. And so it's in that,

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Speaker 1: but I will say, you know, it's a very sometimes

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Speaker 1: quite physical for me. I'm in my body in a

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Speaker 1: deep and profound way. I'm feeling the energy coursing. I

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Speaker 1: sometimes feel almost animalistic when I'm under the influence of

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Speaker 1: these things. Um. I also will say, I'm not very

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Speaker 1: good at listening if I'm with somebody. I I've learned,

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Speaker 1: don't do hide those mushrooms with other people, like just

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Speaker 1: be in my own trip and hopefully if somebody who

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Speaker 1: can keep an eye on me to make sure I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you know, not chewing my arm off or something. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had so I had a very interesting high those

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Speaker 1: mushrooms when I was just start dating stuff. My wife

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Speaker 1: and that we decided to do this to be together

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Speaker 1: really seriously exclusively, and so she had closer apartment in

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Speaker 1: Paris and all her staff would I had arrived in

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Speaker 1: New York and it was also Christmas, and my mother

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Speaker 1: and my father and her daughter, all the family was here.

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Speaker 1: So the combination of the move in my subconscious created

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Speaker 1: a sense of completely you know, I felt really disoriented

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Speaker 1: and I didn't know what to do. So I did

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Speaker 1: five grand of mush and and uh and that was

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Speaker 1: a full on ego dissolution and it remains one of

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Speaker 1: the one of the most beautiful but also terrifying experience.

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Speaker 1: And in that moment of nothingness where your identity is

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Speaker 1: gone and you feel part of nothing, it's really frightening.

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Speaker 1: But then the me together, the real coagulation of your identity,

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Speaker 1: then it's really beautiful because you realize that the key

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Speaker 1: to rebuild yourself is your personal relation is love. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's all about love. And the sixty I really understand

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Speaker 1: what they meant because when you're completely gone and you

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Speaker 1: you lost not just your body but your identity and

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Speaker 1: you when you come back, you realize that the key

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Speaker 1: to understand who you are, it's complete linked to the

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Speaker 1: people you love around you. So to this day it's

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Speaker 1: it's definitely sometimes says can you please dose five grandmom,

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Speaker 1: because we had given this love declaration and then I

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Speaker 1: came out and I have my mother. It was like

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Speaker 1: like like a Ginsberg. Yeah, well you know how I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you. I mean, for me, there have been two

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Speaker 1: times when the mushrooms went in a very dark direction

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Speaker 1: and and it was like where everything is just blacked,

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Speaker 1: where you really I've never suffered from severe depression and

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Speaker 1: I've only ever gone through a depressive episode once for

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Speaker 1: a few months in my life. But it was like

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Speaker 1: where everything has a black edge. Everything looks like you

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Speaker 1: see the dead side right on the live side. And

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Speaker 1: and and and I used two different approaches. One which

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Speaker 1: felt a little like cheating, was I took some M

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Speaker 1: D M A and that helped lift me out and

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Speaker 1: make a softer, gentler experience. But the other one, which

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Speaker 1: is the one I think is the one that one

376
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Speaker 1: should aspire to, is I was on a beach actually

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Speaker 1: in Montauk, New York, at the end of Long Island,

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Speaker 1: and and just in a very dark place. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the sand all looked like decaying um, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: skeletal matter. And there was some homes up top above

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Speaker 1: the beach, and they looked oppressive, and the greens looked

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Speaker 1: you know, ominous, and all of this, and I couldn't

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Speaker 1: escape it. You can't run from a bad trip, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's the thing. And so then I and I conceived

385
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Speaker 1: in a way of this trip as this big ominous wave.

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Speaker 1: And for anybody who's ever gone swimming in the ocean,

387
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Speaker 1: you know you can't run from a big way, which

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Speaker 1: you need to do is to dive into it, dive

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Speaker 1: under it. And so I kind of almost you know, figuratively,

390
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 1: but even literally, I almost like died downward, like going

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Speaker 1: into child's post position on the beach and into the thing.

392
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Speaker 1: And I came out the other end of this thing

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Speaker 1: in my consciousness, and the depression lifted, and every all

394
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Speaker 1: of a sudden, those ominous looking trees now look like

395
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Speaker 1: a beautiful jungle in four dimensions, and the homes were

396
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 1: the most beautiful architecture I've ever seen, and the beach

397
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: was gorgeous and I was and it just lifted. And

398
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Speaker 1: so I think that understanding that when it's really bad,

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Speaker 1: I mean, yes, people can just hold on and try

400
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: it be you can't run, and if you can, if

401
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: you can dive into the blackness, sometimes that's what actually

402
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 1: brings you out the other side. How amazing, amazing um

403
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 1: ell is the well I have to say, LSD, I've

404
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Speaker 1: never done the quote unquote rowic dose. I'm a little

405
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: embarrassed to say that, you know. I mean, I've done

406
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Speaker 1: the kind of hundred microgram numerous times and and that's

407
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Speaker 1: been good to me. It feels a bit like a

408
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 1: mushroom experience, but it's got that kind of chugger chugger chugger,

409
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: you know, stimulant side to it just keeps going and going,

410
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Speaker 1: and it feels like it feels like at the hundred

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Speaker 1: micram level. For me, it feels like doing a kind

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Speaker 1: of three or four grams of mushrooms but with a

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Speaker 1: strong amphetamine underneath it. And so it's been good. UM.

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Speaker 1: More commonly, what I've done is to do and I

415
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Speaker 1: don't know, I I you know, so I don't know

416
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Speaker 1: what I call. I tend to think of micro docing

417
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 1: as being you know, three five below ten micrograms, and

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Speaker 1: what I would normally do would be between twenty and thirty,

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Speaker 1: maybe forty. And I regard that as mini does. Now.

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Speaker 1: I just came from this amazing psychedelics and business conference

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00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 1: in Miami, the Wonderland Miami Conference, and there was somebody

422
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Speaker 1: involved in the whole micro dose failed and he was like, no, Ethan,

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00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: actually micro docing really is in the twenty area, you know.

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Speaker 1: But I felt that when I did to that level, UM,

425
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: I find I I like it. It's not you know,

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00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: I've had some wonderful times sometimes combining it with a

427
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 1: little cannabis. UM. I found that sexually. Sometimes that can

428
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 1: be a wonderful combination. Low dose, you know, micro docing

429
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: of say twenty micrograms grams for me to get a

430
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 1: little bit of available cannabis um is a beautiful combination

431
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: for that. So I've had wonderful times with friends, but

432
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: I don't have that kind of spiritual connection to LSD.

433
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: And I've never done, you know, as I said, the

434
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: heroic dose, and i haven't ever pursued it, and I'm

435
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: maybe a little scared, and I feel like I really

436
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 1: should give it a go. But what about you? What's

437
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 1: your experience there? Um? Similar? Similar? I never did the

438
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: rug dose. I've done a bunch of hundred hundred and

439
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: fifty you know. Amanda Nepath initiated me in and the

440
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: that was that beautiful. I think it was more like

441
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,479
Speaker 1: fifth the microgram. UM. I had some difficult time. Um.

442
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: You know. The thing with for me, the less this

443
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: that I never did this ceremonially, so I never really

444
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: feel safe. But like you, I'm intrigued. At some stage

445
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: in one of my usually up and down I called

446
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: Rick Dublin and he said, listen, I'm ready. I want

447
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: to do a high dose. I want to you know

448
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: that was it wasn't one of my many middle life crisis.

449
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: And so we cooked me up with this guide in

450
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: California somewhere um and they had a protocol of three

451
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 1: days where the first day you just you know, get

452
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: closer to disper to the guide and and then you

453
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: do some breathing and so yoga. You get ready for

454
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: day two, they give a little bit of the m

455
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: DM A just too ease, and then you go for

456
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: five anthrem and I was booked, and then something happened.

457
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: So the universe thought that I wasn't ready. But I'm

458
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: I'm curious, and I don't know. You're familiar with the

459
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: Christopher Bash, this professor of theology. I know the name,

460
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: but I haven't read or know him. He did seventy

461
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: three high dose this session in the course of twenty years,

462
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: so roughly every three or four months he would go

463
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: from under micagram. And I was in a psychedelic conference

464
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: in London and he was there and he says that,

465
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 1: you know, twenty years every four months, that's a big commitment.

466
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: And he said that at the beginning, you would you know,

467
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 1: go in the LSD Real as a as a visitor,

468
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: but then after so many times you become a resident

469
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: and he's really so the future of humankind. He's really

470
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: become part of this commist cosmic consciousness. And and yeah, yeah, no,

471
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 1: it sounds like it's funny. You mentioned lady Amanda. And

472
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: you know my one and only time in Burning Man

473
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: about ten twelve years ago, and I was in Rick

474
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: Doublin's maps camp and Alex Gray and Allison had their

475
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: tent there. It was really wonderful and and Sasha Shogun

476
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: and and later Amanda were just around the corner for me.

477
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: And I won't say who exactly gave me the hundred

478
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: micrograhams of LSD, but it was the last night averting

479
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: Man and a friend and I just biked all around

480
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: the player and it was a weird night because everybody's

481
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: leaving and so your landmarks are disappearing, so you're tripping

482
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: and landmarks are disappearing, and you know, but that was

483
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: a very pleasurable experiences, incredible. The same thing happened to

484
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: me because you know, the dome's gone, right, and so

485
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: they take the name of the street down. So it

486
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: was exactly so maybe maybe one day we'll go together

487
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: and them. I liked the Humans California md A. Yeah,

488
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: I mean M D m A played an important role

489
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: in my life. Um. You know, there was a moment

490
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 1: in my early thirties, uh, when I had never done

491
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: it before, and my marriage was you know, not in

492
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 1: a good place, really bad, and uh, you know, we're

493
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: going to marriage counseling and it wasn't really looking very

494
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: optimistic and my wife and I um did M D

495
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: m A and it was, oh my god. It was

496
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: like you know, chains peeling away, like things lifting, and

497
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: the sense of love that we felt. And I remember

498
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: we were thinking, what we can't do this all the time.

499
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: So we you know, we sat down and thought, how

500
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: do we come back to this space without the drug?

501
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: And we agreed on certain things while we runder the

502
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 1: influence that here's what we would do. I remember going

503
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: to see the marriage counselor a few days later and

504
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: she was blowing away. She had heard about this, but

505
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: to see it. And in the end we still split up,

506
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: but I think it helped us to a softer landing

507
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: where my X and I have been good friends and

508
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: very good co parents for our you know, wonderful daughter

509
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: for you know, the last you know, three decades or whatever.

510
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: So it was great in that respect, and I think

511
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: it played a It's played an important role in my

512
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: other relationships since then, really and being able to clear

513
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: the air, being able to talk and hear in a

514
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: very heartfelt way. And my great regret, Jan Carlo is

515
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: it really hasn't worked for me for the last fifteen years.

516
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: You know. I loved it in my thirties and forties,

517
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: and now I don't get that much of the upside.

518
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: I definitely get the downside, and my body's like telling

519
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: me Ethan, don't, don't do it. You know. Friends suggested

520
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: that I try m D A that which was kind

521
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: of the predecessor M to m D m A, the

522
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: popular one back in the seventies. And I tried that

523
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: not long ago, and I got a little more of

524
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: the M D m ash effect and it lasted a

525
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: little longer, but it kicked a shed at me physically

526
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: for a few days. So I think now I relish

527
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: the experience that I had. Some of my most beautiful memories,

528
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: especially in relationships with UH with women, have been with

529
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: those times, and I think it helps sustain me in

530
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: a longer relationship. Um. But I regret that you know,

531
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: I have to say it's in my past. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

532
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: Also for me for for a couple of therapy. For me,

533
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: the magic happens because you can see from the other

534
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: person points of view. I you know, with Stephanie, I

535
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: you know, under this this influence, I would see how

536
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: she sees me and that really helped. And we have

537
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: a friend that they have this yearly tradition they go

538
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: to a uh this couple they offer a couple of

539
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: therapy in England and it's basically again three days affair.

540
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: They have this questionnaire for the couple that you fill

541
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: up before taking m d M A, during and after

542
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: and it's you know, question geared towards you know, acknowledgement

543
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: of what is the thing that don't work for you,

544
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: which way your needs are not met and and you know,

545
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: give you such a clear perspective. So I remember Sasha

546
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: Shergin Burnia Man told me that you can do MBM

547
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: A once a year. There was actually said yeah, because

548
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: you need time for the serotonin in and and so

549
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: so you know which I also wonder are men more

550
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: likely to burn out on mdmad women? I mean, just anecdotally,

551
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: I think I think you know, women seemed able to

552
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: use it longer and so get the effect, and I

553
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: seem to remember that Sasha's wife and continue to like

554
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: m dm ay and maybe using more often, even as

555
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: Sasha was becoming more reserved. Rick Rick once told me

556
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: that you have the down when you try to cope

557
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: too early. Basically, when you have the serratony in depletion,

558
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: then you have to take the day off. You have

559
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: to like, you know, the Tuesday blows. You need to like,

560
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: you know, be in the countryside, not having your phone,

561
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: not having to deal the moment you try to cope,

562
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: then you have to down. So so you need to

563
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: really even more than the preparation for the integration. You

564
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: need a full day where you're not solicited intellectually. And

565
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: then of course there is the seratonin in integrator f

566
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: HTP that that helps. But it's true that with me too,

567
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: with age, the recovery is harder. Well, I even find

568
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: that the experience itself. And so somebody suggests I've been trying,

569
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: like opping the dose. I think I might try. Somebody

570
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: suggests try a much lower dose, one that I would

571
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: think that I would barely feel it and see see

572
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: what that's like. So I might try that, but I've

573
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: literally only done it, I don't know, maybe four or

574
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: five times in the last fifteen plus years, and and

575
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: none of them have really been right. So I want

576
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,719
Speaker 1: to add one thing, because you know, America is very

577
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: pure ton around the idea of the recreational, and so

578
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: I like to, you know, instead of using the word recreation,

579
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: if you call it like celebratory. I remember two years

580
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: ago I did the next as the other party, and

581
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: a little bit like your experience of my my birthday

582
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: party with the mushroom, I had ten hours of dancing

583
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: in an ecstatic celebration of life. And that also is

584
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: um it's good. I seem to recall I may have

585
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: taken a very low dose of M d M a

586
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: your party in carl It together with the other stuff.

587
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: It may have been the only time it's really worked

588
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: for me in the last fifteen years. Now. This is

589
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: my favorite, of course, ayowatcom Yeah, well, you know I've

590
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: done it a couple of times, once in a Santo

591
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: Dime ceremony in New York. Actually, um, I remember going

592
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: into that when I was a little apprehensive, because you know,

593
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: I'm fairly grounded in my Jewish tradition. I have a

594
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: very strong Jewish identity. My father was a rabbi, you know,

595
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: it's been part of my my life. And Santo Dime.

596
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: You know, at the end of the ceremony, they're bringing

597
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: up people you know who have you know, have been

598
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: through a serious thing to put Jesus into their lives.

599
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: And a friend of mine said, Ethan, just relaxed, see

600
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: it as you're creating a vessel for you to enjoy

601
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: this experience. And so that was really it was an

602
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: interesting experience for me. I had met the shaman from

603
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: Rio before. I liked them, you know. Um it was

604
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, fairly strict. You know, men and women separate

605
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: and you have to sit in your chairs and you

606
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: can't cross your legs or your arms. So that was unusual. Um.

607
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: But it was interesting experience and I would shift back

608
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: and forth like as a participant observer. The first time

609
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: I did it, um, which was a years before that,

610
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: maybe fifteen eighteen years ago, was with a friend um

611
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: and in a Barbara who's led many people on their

612
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: ayahuasca experiences. In fact, the way I met Darren Aronovski,

613
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,240
Speaker 1: the movie director who was the producer of my podcast,

614
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: was this fellow Gongo White, was our mutual guide on

615
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: our first trips, and that one that was really remarkable

616
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: experience where I basically I had a sort of telepathic

617
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: connection with somebody, you know, just I. It was actually,

618
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: it's a strange thing you went think would think about

619
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: this on Iowaski experience. But there was a billionaire who

620
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: played a pivotal role in the kind of marijuana legalization movement,

621
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: and I had a very kind of tempestuous relationship with him,

622
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: and he had sort of ritten me off, told people

623
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: he didn't you know, he didn't want to deal with

624
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: me anymore. It was all just kind of a weird

625
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: and a personal thing. But I knew in my heart

626
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: of hearts that there was no way we're going to

627
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: succeed in legalizing marijuana until unless he relaxed and we

628
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: had a partnership. And during the course of that experience,

629
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 1: I began communicating in a sort of telepathic way, doing

630
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: this kind of emotional scans of him and drafting this

631
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: letter to him in my mind about about love and

632
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,439
Speaker 1: letting go and fathers and sons and all this sort

633
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: of stuff. And I wrote the letter, but nobody saw it,

634
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: and a few days later, out of the blue, he

635
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: calls me and says, Ethan, I'm going to give you

636
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: the money you asked for, and I'm doing this to

637
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: show you I love I love you. And he never

638
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 1: used that word with me before. So could it be coincidence, sure,

639
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: But the circumstantial, you know, elements of that was just remarkable.

640
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: So so that was um that was a great, beautiful

641
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: experience and actually worked out quite well for my organization

642
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: because it ended up being a million dollars. He came

643
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: through with you. I sometimes joke about, you know, fundraising

644
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: through Ayahuaska, even though that was not my intention going in.

645
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: I think if I had gone into iOS experience thinking

646
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: I want to focus on this, the ayahuasca would have

647
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: kicked the ship out of me. It's just that it

648
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: came up naturally in the way it did that. I

649
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: think it allowed that to happen. So my my mother

650
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: explanation of this phenomenon is that, you know, we have

651
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: this electromagnetic field, right, but they are regulated by the ego,

652
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 1: but by by this the full mode network. So when

653
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: d MT like Salo Sabin reduced the full mode network,

654
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: they need allow the electromoty field to expand and and

655
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: that's how do you explain why in Burning Man everybody

656
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: experiences incredible telepathic synchronicity. People you want to meet, people

657
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: don't want to meet that it's incredible. How you know?

658
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: My idea is that fifty people or sixty to eighty

659
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 1: people with reduced the full mode network create these energetic

660
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: highways where people can tap into and make things happen.

661
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: I mean, sounds reasonable to me. I will admit that

662
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 1: I sometimes spent a lot less time thinking about how

663
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: this actually happens or why, or the sciences. In all

664
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,479
Speaker 1: my studies and work on drug policy, I've typically looked

665
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: at the science or the explanations for what's going on

666
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: and the role the brain, and I say, okay, that's

667
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: for other people to kind of dumb down for me

668
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: and explain. But in terms of why, and then also why,

669
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: I awuaska, I mean, you know, it has more of

670
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: a reputation for the telepathic experience then does I think

671
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: most of the other psychedelics. I mean, the other ones

672
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: have their stories as well, but there seems to be

673
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: something special going on there and maybe it's what you

674
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: described in Carlisle. I don't I don't know. Yeah, I

675
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: mean for me i Awaska. Yeah, my wife and I

676
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: wed the seven Years practice where we drank it maybe

677
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: five hundred times. You know we where we I mean,

678
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: it's no secret we've been very public about our addictions

679
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 1: in the past, and you know, we definitely, definitely definitely

680
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: credit ayahuasca. If you know, if we're still together, and

681
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,439
Speaker 1: you know, it was like maybe two or three times

682
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: of years we will go to retreat. There was like

683
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: a couple of shamans we would work with and and

684
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: and you know, we had a lot of reconditioning to do.

685
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: We were both um you know, in the grip of

686
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: addiction and and it helps us a lot. So you know,

687
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 1: sometimes when you do this gratitude exercise when you have

688
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 1: to think about event that you know, they have to

689
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: think event when you're that you felt really grateful and

690
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: memory of the mornings after Nyawaska when you keep on

691
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: coming back, when you're really heart open and really connected

692
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: and you see this incredible sunrise and the nature and

693
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: it's it's incredible. Well, you know it's funny, I mean,

694
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: because this goes back to you and I'm meeting right

695
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: at the first World Ayahuaska Congress and I think it

696
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: was two thousand fourteen on the island of Vidisa, where

697
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: you're now living. And I remember you. I think you

698
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: were showing a film there and you and I kind

699
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: of hit it off. And I remember also seeing a

700
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: really interesting film there um with Gabor Mate, the Jungle Prescription. Yeah,

701
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: and I guess, but it's one where he was working

702
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: with people who were like engaged in the harmyduction program

703
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: or needle exchange program in Vancouver. So people think about, oh,

704
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: this is just for the wealthy or this and that,

705
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: but it's act he was. I think I thought it

706
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: might have been Aowaska if I remember correctly, with people

707
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 1: who were really had been struggling with serious addiction. You know. So,

708
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the potential I mean obviously not

709
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: just the Aawaska, but obviously it's still a cyber and

710
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: d m A and a whole range of others for

711
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: helping people have struggled with addiction and PTSD. I mean,

712
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: you know, well, I mean everybody's reading about what's going

713
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: on now in terms of scientific research. For me, it

714
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: makes sense. I know you're not that interested on the neuroscience,

715
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: but you know, when when the ego is reduced because

716
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: suffering comes from this idea of the ego. If if

717
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 1: you if the ego is subdued, you can associate the

718
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: painful memory, You can detach the painful memory with the emotion.

719
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: So so the addict too has in this loop of pain,

720
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: can as the opportunity of detaching the pain from the memory.

721
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: So the abusive parents, the childhood trauma becomes visible without

722
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: the pain, so you can transcend them. I mean, for sure,

723
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: these compounds are revolutionized in psychiatry. For sure. This is

724
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: this yeah. I mean, just being down at this conference

725
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: in Miami and just seeing the presentations and of course

726
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: following the literature, it's extraordinary was coming out. I mean,

727
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, whether it actually, you know, seriously

728
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: undermine some of the pharmaceutical industry with their daily medications

729
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 1: for depression and anxiety, all these other sorts of things,

730
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: it would be great. I mean, we have to be

731
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: careful because there will be abuses, there will be problems,

732
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: people are over selling and all this sort of stuff.

733
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: But I think we're starting off in mostly the right

734
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: place with people looking at this um, how do we

735
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: be responsible about this? And hopefully stupidity and greed will

736
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: not undermine the progress. So so let's talk about that

737
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: for a second. I wanted to keep it on the

738
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 1: personal experience, but but since we're talking about the medicalization.

739
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: So one of the risks of the of this big

740
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: company is that you know, you can't integration is not scalable.

741
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 1: So in a capital stic environment where psychedelic company will

742
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: compete for customers, the temptation to cut corners in things

743
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: like the integration. For example, if you you know it's

744
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 1: going to be cheaper if you have a psychedelic assists

745
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: psychotherapy just for two hours instead of six for the integration.

746
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's very difficult to you know, we'll

747
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 1: see how this thing plays out, but we do well.

748
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: I mean, look what's going on with Academy now right.

749
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: You have some very smart and responsible people who are

750
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: doing kedemy, providing kenemine and doing it with proper integration thereafter.

751
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: You know, I think people should look at the website

752
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: of Phil Wolfson, who is one of the godfathers of

753
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: the kenemine therapy, and I've bet a bunch of others

754
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: of late I see these popping all up. But then

755
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: he also run into people who are you know, some

756
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: anesthesiologists or something else who just sees an opportunity to

757
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: make more money and they can get paid a lot

758
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: of money for you know, administering the very expensive version

759
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: of Kenemine that the insurance companies will pay for, even

760
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: though ketteman actually is a very inexpensive drug, and they're

761
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 1: doing it in a kind of glary lights medical environment.

762
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: Maybe you put the ice shades on, but you come

763
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: out of it. There's not serious integration. So I mean,

764
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: Kennemane gives us and it's short acting, which fits the

765
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: kind of capitalist you know, short amount of time model,

766
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: but kenna means an opportunity to try to get this

767
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: thing right. Um, hopefully we can, uh you know the

768
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: other question, of course, I mean maybe this is just

769
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 1: perhaps too ambitious. But because the role of the importance

770
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: integration is so important after an experience, and because that

771
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: can also be done in a group setting, you know,

772
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: it begins to present the idea of this encouraging more

773
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: of a group model for this, and I know, you

774
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 1: know you think about Look one of the upsides of

775
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: the twelve Steps program. I mean, they don't have a

776
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: very high success rate. They have lots of problems but

777
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: they do offer a sense of community for people, which

778
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: is really pivotal. And just in the last week, I've

779
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: heard about three different people and organizations trying to do

780
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: online UM either integration of psycholic experiences or alternately working

781
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: with people struggling with addiction, where they're creating not just

782
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 1: one on one sessions, but also group sessions. You know,

783
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 1: one of the silver lines of COVID was it forced

784
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: so much of this stuff to move online where you

785
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: can dramatically reduce costs and it allows people to be

786
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: in a group environment to oftentimes maintain some degree of

787
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 1: anonymity and comfort UM, but where that community can be

788
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: you know, created, And if you then look at some

789
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: of the potentials around virtual reality of making a community

790
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, feel more intimate than it currently does over

791
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: the internet, but at a much lower cost in terms

792
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: of people having to travel to one place to be somewhere.

793
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: You know, there are some promising things on the horizon.

794
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of good stuff is going

795
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 1: to emerge, but there's no way to get rid of

796
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: all the scoundrels in this. But so since let's go

797
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: back to the personal experience the UM. What's your personal

798
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: experience with not I haven't had a lot of it, um,

799
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: but I will say um uh there were two uh

800
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 1: one some years ago there was a fellow named Sean Haley.

801
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: Did you know Sean Haley at all? Sean, I made

802
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 1: a lot of money, um, you know Silicon Valley, an

803
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: unusual guy. Um. And then he started experimenting with um

804
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: sort of drug concoctions um. And he was trying to

805
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: deal with his own lifelong depression. And he came up

806
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: with a combination of high dose a Cademy high dose

807
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,959
Speaker 1: d MT low dos kedemine and he began going around

808
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 1: administering these two friends. And so I did that once

809
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: and that was like like a rocket, you know, and

810
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 1: I mean for forty five minutes, but almost thought about

811
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: it was almost like a cliff Notes version of a

812
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 1: of of a of a mushroom experience or something clip.

813
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 1: So what what what was that dose? It? I don't

814
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: know the actual doors. All I know is the d

815
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: m T was a high dose smoke. Actually it was

816
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: with a needle where intramuscular why a little jab in

817
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: the butt cheek um. And I had told him that

818
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 1: Sasha Shulguns called called said I was a hardhead. So

819
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 1: I need an extra dose, so he gave me two shots.

820
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: So it was like a rocket taken off. But then

821
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: after forty five minutes, it was like parachute opens and

822
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: I'm kind of come floating down to earth and I

823
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 1: stand up. My legs are kind of wobbly from the

824
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: kenemine And a few hours later, I'm going out to

825
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: dinner in a movie, right, so you know, and I

826
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: would say afterwards, for weeks afterwards, I felt like my

827
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 1: mood was slightly elevated, my sexuality seemed slightly depressed, and

828
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: there was this funny little humming feeling in my forehead

829
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,919
Speaker 1: which wasn't bothers him, but it was just kind of there.

830
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 1: And so that was one experience. The other one was

831
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: last year a friend of mine who is herself a

832
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: kenemine therapist. UM I did it with her at her

833
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: home and she was there taking here of the music

834
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: and you know a little notebook in case any notes.

835
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: And total was my first time doing a real blindfold,

836
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,280
Speaker 1: and I did it with dissolving a couple of abs

837
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 1: under my tongue. I realized in retrospect it might have

838
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: been a lot smoother just to do the intramuscular but

839
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 1: she didn't have that available, and and I was surprised

840
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: how how profound it was, you know, I mean it

841
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: was first of all, I mean, I mean, there was

842
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 1: I won't go into the longer story, but the key

843
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: thing was there was one moment um where I had

844
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: kind of turned over onto my belly and uh um

845
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: and and and I was almost entering into almost like

846
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: this avatar like environment. And I was underneath like in

847
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 1: some water, like in a swamp or a lake, and

848
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: it's dark, and I'm thinking, you know, I'm underwater, I

849
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: can't breathe. And then I go, but I'm breathing. And

850
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: then I'm going, it's dark. I can't see anything. This

851
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: is this should be scary. There could be snakes, and

852
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: I realized I'm not scared, and I just keep moving forward.

853
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 1: And also I go, oh my god, I could pass

854
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: through death like this. And it was the first and

855
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: only time I've had that kind of sensation. And I

856
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 1: was taking with how gentle it was and only lasted

857
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 1: for an hour or something like that, but it was

858
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: very gentle. It was even with the high dose mushrooms.

859
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 1: I hadn't kind of had that, you know, UM escaped

860
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: from the body. But with that ketemy, which I think

861
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 1: relatively high dose. I don't know what it was, but

862
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 1: I was told it was a relatively high dose. Yeah,

863
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: I really felt like I kind of left my body

864
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: in a way, or I was sort of in and

865
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 1: out of it. But in this you know, avatar place

866
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: that turned out to be scary but beautiful. Well, yeah,

867
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: like I also had not very meaningful experience. I mean,

868
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,320
Speaker 1: probably not with the right set of set set and settings.

869
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: But actually, yesterday I met a friend who did the

870
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: full three injection in a cleaning here in New York,

871
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: and he said it was the most a bit of

872
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 1: experience with his life. It was like a heavenly experience.

873
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: It felt it felt heaven. He felt it like abounded compassion,

874
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: stion and and and and this incredible sense of of

875
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: of of abundant compassion and love and sounds amazing. Well,

876
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: I mean you also see him now that it's been

877
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: approved for you know, management of intractable depression, I mean,

878
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,479
Speaker 1: that's very promising. And the fact that you know, until

879
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 1: a few months ago, it was the only psychedelic that

880
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: the National Student Drug Abuse would give any grants for

881
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: it to research for treating addiction. UM. On my podcast,

882
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: I interviewed a fellow alias Dakwar, professor of Columbia who's

883
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: using a combination of ketamine and mindfulness meditation to treat

884
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: addiction and depression. And so I just think it really

885
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: has enormous potential, and I hope it doesn't get corrupted

886
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 1: and get a bad reputation because of people being reckless

887
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: and stupid with it. But why do you think I

888
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 1: meany scheduled three and having scheduled one. Probably first of all,

889
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 1: the fact that it already had extensive use both UM

890
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: in emergency medicine and wartime medicine and veterinary medicine meant

891
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: that people were already familiar with it. They've been administering

892
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 1: it to human beings for a very long time. So

893
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: I think that helped make people, you know, feel okay

894
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 1: about it. I think secondly, the fact that it's relatively

895
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 1: short acting UM maybe maybe a thing about it. Uh. Thirdly,

896
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:21,439
Speaker 1: maybe a lower people A lot of people are taking

897
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,439
Speaker 1: lower doses where the kind of psychedelic effect was seen

898
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 1: as a kind of negative, you know, side effect or

899
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: something like that. But you were dealing with people dealing

900
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,919
Speaker 1: you know, you know, emergency responders who were in parts

901
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:34,720
Speaker 1: of the kind of world where they don't have opioids

902
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 1: available using ketamine, or people in the battlefield. So I

903
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: think for all sorts of reasons it kind of got

904
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: in there were tolerated with the psychedelic side was seen

905
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: as just negative side effects, um, whereas these other things.

906
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: And it also did not start off becoming popular in

907
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: the underground. It wasn't It wasn't a creator. Yeah, I

908
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: mean allstie. You know, I had a early history in

909
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 1: the fifties early sixties before he got popularized by Timothy

910
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: Leary and others. Um, But mushrooms have always had that

911
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 1: REQUI anational side to it, so uh, you know. And

912
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: I don't think there were really news reports the people

913
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: jumping off balconies or you know, that kind of thing.

914
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: So I think we're lucky in that regard that it

915
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: actually was able to get get through. What about some pedro,

916
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: did you have an experience? I've never done something pedro.

917
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 1: I've never done peyote. You know, maybe that was in

918
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 1: my future. Uh, what about you? So I've done it?

919
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: Sometimes some shalman will give it to you in the

920
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: morning after then Ayahuaska session to to open your heart

921
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: to like too easy A little bit in the in

922
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: the in the post ayahuasca um I never but but

923
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: recently Nibiza, I did the full on two liters. They

924
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: give you this this I can't remember which tradition is it,

925
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 1: but where you have the old plant, not just the

926
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 1: not just the button. I think, no, that's that's anyway.

927
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: It was a type of It was very diluted by

928
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 1: a lot like you drink this like two litter. You

929
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: keep on drink and drink and drinking. And and it

930
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: was it was you know they always say that, you know,

931
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: the first session is a bit disorienting, and then the

932
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,839
Speaker 1: second time you find your bearing. It was a combination

933
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 1: of of of LSD and there was something really unusual

934
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: about about it. Then the guy let us going free,

935
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 1: actually encouraged us to go and walk around, and and

936
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,439
Speaker 1: I remember I was sitting there very confused. I would

937
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: have had this image of of of of some big

938
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: leadies from Louisiana. I don't know. I was really disoriented.

939
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 1: And so this other person will come by and say,

940
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: remember this is a cactus that it's very hard because

941
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 1: it lives in the desert. But then there is a

942
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: flower and so that that that comment turned my trip

943
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: into something a little bit more beautiful. But I'm not

944
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: friend with the San Pedro yet. Yeah, you know, I

945
00:51:57,760 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: learned a lot. You know. I had Michael Power on

946
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:02,919
Speaker 1: my podcast a few months ago, and his latest book,

947
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: one of the big chapters is on mescaline and and

948
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 1: he finds it a very powerful experience. I think he

949
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 1: also makes an important point that, you know, given how

950
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: limited peyote is, and given that there's a really highly

951
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: respected indigenous use of this in a Native American church,

952
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: then unless somebody is specifically invited in by that community

953
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: to do it, that buying large people outside that community

954
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 1: should generally, you know, not take advantage of used peyote

955
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: that you can get more or less the same thing

956
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: from San Pedro. I mean, it is essentially mescalin as well,

957
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 1: and do that. Um so I I think I will.

958
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: I'm curious to try Son Pedro and to try mescalind

959
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 1: I only I only did mescalind once. Um and uh,

960
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: you know, but for me it was something between a

961
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: mushroom and and LSD experience. I don't know if it

962
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: was all that distinctive. Um, it was powerful, you know. Um,

963
00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:00,439
Speaker 1: what about five d MT the toad from the Sonora Desert. Well,

964
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: you know, I'll tell you a friend of mine said,

965
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: I was kind of scared to do it. You know,

966
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: where you smoke it in fifteen minutes, and you know,

967
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 1: can seem like you know, you know ages and and

968
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 1: people's you know, you know, with everything, you know, all

969
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: the experiences you hear about the five m O d

970
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,800
Speaker 1: m T, whether it's the toad medicine or the synthetic.

971
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: And you know, people you can argue about whether the

972
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 1: you know the specialness of the toad medicine as opposed

973
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: to the synthetic, and I get their point about it.

974
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: But anyway, this friend of mine, um, you know, I said, okay,

975
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 1: I'm ready, and he says, I actually think I'm sorry.

976
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: I'm out of the smokable type. Um uh, all I

977
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: have is some snortable five mm e O d m T.

978
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's toad from the toad or synthetic.

979
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: And like, you know, I've never been a cocaine or

980
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: only snort things. But he goes, yeah, and he put

981
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: out too long white lines of this stuff, and I said,

982
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: how long do you think it will last? He goes, why,

983
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: don't have how much experience with it, but you know,

984
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: maybe half hour or so. So I snort these two lines, right,

985
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: And I trusted him because he's got a huge amount

986
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: of experience as a guy. And first of all, it

987
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: burned like hell, I mean really burned, like in my

988
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 1: scientist you know, cavities and all that sort of stuff.

989
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 1: And finally it's settled down. But I'll tell you five

990
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: hours later, like I'm lying down there. I mean, I'm

991
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: I'm sort of still in my body. I don't go

992
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 1: through the ego dissolution or whatever that is, you know,

993
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: but it was like a kind of different version of

994
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: a mushroom trip. At one point, my energy is shooting

995
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: out of my legs. I mean, I mean afterwards, you know,

996
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 1: my host said, you know, were you doing candalini exercises?

997
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: I said, like, what's contalini? You know, I don't what

998
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: you may not know what it is, but you were

999
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 1: looking like you were doing it right there. And then

1000
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 1: literally five hours later, I'm coming out of it and

1001
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 1: I get up to talk to my friends and I

1002
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: sound like what I could not I actually pronounced my words,

1003
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 1: and I was until the next morning that I could

1004
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: actually get out like talk normally again. And even then

1005
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: I felt like I had to drive back to another

1006
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 1: friend's house. I felt disoriented in terms of I could

1007
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,319
Speaker 1: drive safely, but where I was was kind of been down.

1008
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 1: So it was a strange and u experience. And and

1009
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 1: I don't know that this is about about four years ago. Um,

1010
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say about it. Really. I

1011
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 1: do think I need to try the fift you know,

1012
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: smokeable version and try to telling medicine. Um. That sounds

1013
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: like people have described wonderful things about it, but some

1014
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 1: people say it's taken them a good weeks or month

1015
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: to fully get back to some form of yes. Yes.

1016
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: For me, it was one of the most beautiful experience

1017
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: of my life. And I did it in the perfect

1018
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: condition because you know, we have a man group. It's

1019
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 1: ten of us. Every year we spent five days mostly

1020
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: during Ayahuaska during the day as a personal experience, but

1021
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:44,320
Speaker 1: also as a collective. We would then share and and

1022
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: so at the end of day five, when we already

1023
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 1: have this strong morpho genetic field of of of you know,

1024
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 1: support of our friends, then we did we did this.

1025
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: We smoked the toad and and you feel very safe.

1026
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: It was like in a temple in England. Then it's

1027
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 1: like if I don't do it now, I don't know

1028
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do it. We were, you know, we

1029
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: were like five days working together. There was all this

1030
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 1: strong bond and it was it was it was like

1031
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: one of us says, touching the heart of God, you

1032
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: felt really catapulted in heaven, in this blue light where

1033
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 1: you have this sense of forgiveness and compassion and the

1034
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: closest thing to happen. Wow. Wow, I look forward to it.

1035
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 1: It's funny. At this conference and I was said in Miami,

1036
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 1: Mike Tyson was there and just singing the praises of

1037
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 1: the toad medicine. You know, I've heard other people just

1038
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 1: talking about how for them that's gonna they feel it's

1039
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,359
Speaker 1: going to be their go to substance for the rest

1040
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 1: of their lives. We'll try the other ones and whatever,

1041
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: they'll do them, but that five m e oh is

1042
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: the one that really spoke to him. It's funny because

1043
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: I don't really feel the need to revisit that. It's interesting,

1044
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 1: you know, I would, I would do other things, but

1045
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: that's so precious. I don't know, So why don't we

1046
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 1: conclude with them with normal D empty except the couple

1047
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 1: of injection you had. Did you ever had the smoke?

1048
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 1: NORMALM No? I mean actually the one we could talk

1049
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: about is two C B. Yeah, because um, that was

1050
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 1: when I thought I was gonna do it a few

1051
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: weeks ago, but it turned out not to happen. But

1052
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 1: I did it a number of times about twenty years

1053
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: ago or so. Um and uh. The funny thing about

1054
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 1: about to ce bit is is the kind of um

1055
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: odd impact in terms of drugs set and setting that

1056
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: the book by Sasha and Shilgin Peakal. You know their books,

1057
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 1: Pet Peakal fin Athletes, I Don't in Love. There's a

1058
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: little section there about two C B and and describes

1059
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: the experience under whose pseudonym of taking the two C

1060
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: B and lapsing into the most devastating self critical ego

1061
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: wipe outing, horrible, feel terrible about yourself. I mean, just

1062
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 1: just a nightmarish experience and just wallowing and not knowing

1063
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: what to do. And then Sasha or pseudonym appears at

1064
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: the door and this beaming light emerges and the thing

1065
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: begins to transform. And the next thing that happens is

1066
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 1: she is having the most multi orgasmic experience with him

1067
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 1: that she that she's ever had. And and so you

1068
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: read that and you go, okay, like multi orgasmic experience,

1069
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:36,640
Speaker 1: let's let's do it, right, um. But in point of fact,

1070
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll tell you, I mean this is actually

1071
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 1: after my marriage, I met this beautiful woman a journalists

1072
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 1: American journalists have grown up in Europe. It was in

1073
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 1: Paris in the early mid nineties. And I went back

1074
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 1: to visit her about a month later, and and we

1075
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,720
Speaker 1: did M D M A together and it was beautiful.

1076
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: And she lived near the Plus Devotion in Paris and

1077
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: an old you know building the air that had been modernized.

1078
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 1: And but I remember we went out and everything was

1079
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: gorgeous and beautiful, and and we came back and we

1080
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: were in the vegetable of her apartment building, like you

1081
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: know how somebody want to stand on corners, like people

1082
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 1: won't go stand on a shell from me. I was

1083
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 1: doing this stuff, filling up the space, and then we

1084
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 1: went upstairs. It was just loving and beautiful and all this,

1085
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's just great. Anyway, two days later, I said,

1086
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 1: let's try the two CV. So we do the two CB.

1087
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 1: We retrace our steps right and it's like, what's this?

1088
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: And God, that needs to be fixed and that's that.

1089
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 1: And it was this kind of critical mode and I

1090
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:37,920
Speaker 1: realized it was this critical you know, like and then

1091
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 1: and then we finally come back and I look at

1092
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 1: the vegetable which looks so marvelous under you know, M

1093
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: D M A, and I'm going, who are designed it?

1094
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: You know? And then we go upstairs, um, and we

1095
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 1: started relaxing and we start making love. And I remember

1096
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 1: about the love making was that was that it was

1097
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: that that my tactile sense was didn't feel right, it

1098
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 1: felt almost clammy. But that the said, the different sensations

1099
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: of sex were almost colorized in a really and so

1100
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 1: there was some depth and specialness to the sexual encounter

1101
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: all of that. So that was But I mean, after that,

1102
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: I realized, Eathan, don't do two c B with your lover, right,

1103
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 1: this is the drug. Take it by yourself, right. It's

1104
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 1: like doing a lower dose mushroom for me. And when

1105
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 1: you want to kick the ship out of yourself, you know,

1106
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 1: do it that way. And so I did it. One time.

1107
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 1: I was in Venice and I was just broken up

1108
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: actually with this woman, and I was you know, I

1109
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 1: was a rainy February day in Venice, and I remember

1110
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 1: just going down, like walking around Venice by myself and

1111
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: going to the Jewish ghetto and feel having a very

1112
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: spiritual connection with it, the Jewish Ghetto in Venice. And

1113
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 1: then another time back home in New York. I've never

1114
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 1: liked the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and I decided I'm

1115
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 1: gonna examine my prejudices. So I took the two c

1116
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 1: b this girlfriend and given me a pigskin vest. Now

1117
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 1: I still keep kosher, right, so that it felt like

1118
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:59,479
Speaker 1: a little passive aggressive or giving me a pigskin vessel,

1119
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:03,240
Speaker 1: like technically Jews can wear pigskin, right, Um, I put

1120
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 1: the pigskin vest down, I can ready did something else.

1121
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 1: I walked across the park from my where I live

1122
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 1: on the airports side to the museum. I went to

1123
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 1: the museum, which I you know, I don't generally like

1124
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 1: when I would see an exhibit like twelve century medieval tapestries,

1125
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 1: which I would never go to. I go to it, right,

1126
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 1: and it was a little more interesting because the tapestries

1127
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: were kind of going up and down the ceiling because

1128
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 1: I was loosening a little bit. But I actually had

1129
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: a chance to spend the whole afternoon in the museum

1130
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 1: at the quote unquote Sasha museum level dose, you know,

1131
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 1: beginning to get a feeling about what why did I

1132
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: like this place? And what might I like? And and

1133
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 1: with my aesthetic sensibilities were enhanced and so for me

1134
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 1: to see b was really the one for intensive, you know,

1135
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: pretty hard nosed, you know, critical self examination. And then

1136
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 1: I kind of lost my source to it, and uh,

1137
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 1: haven't done it in the last couple of decades, but

1138
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: I'm definitely keen to try it again. Interesting. Interesting, So

1139
01:01:57,720 --> 01:01:59,479
Speaker 1: let me ask you the reason why I was asking

1140
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 1: you d MT s because do you remember ricks Trust

1141
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: money in the in the in the eighties, they did

1142
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 1: this clinical trial injecting the MT to a bunch of

1143
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 1: a healthy volunteer I think, and and and basically they

1144
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 1: find some similarities in terms of the entities that the

1145
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 1: volunteer would encounter. And so now the Imperial College accountant

1146
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 1: too much because it's it's still under under. It's it's

1147
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 1: still under They just they just started administrating the trial

1148
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 1: those but they're basing using a I V machine to

1149
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 1: put the volunteer into d MT dose for much longer

1150
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:44,200
Speaker 1: than the ten minutes. And so this idea of of

1151
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 1: the sponsor is that you know, maybe that compound would

1152
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: allow access to these beings, that they might be independent

1153
01:02:56,560 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 1: and sent an independent center, beings that we more time

1154
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 1: you can develop a relationship. And what do you think

1155
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:09,040
Speaker 1: about this? I don't know. I mean, look for me,

1156
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:12,680
Speaker 1: you know the notion of this, you know, as witnessed

1157
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:14,960
Speaker 1: by my experience with very high dose mushrooms or the

1158
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:18,439
Speaker 1: high dose d MT, I don't seem to go through

1159
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 1: this ego dissolution stuff. I seem to retain my sense

1160
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 1: of being present in my body with the exception of

1161
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 1: that brief academy and experience last year. Um. And it

1162
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: may be because I haven't really done it with the

1163
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 1: blindfold on, and maybe that might make the difference. Um.

1164
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 1: No entities, not that I can recall. You know, I'm

1165
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: not seeing jaguars. I'm not seeing entities. I'm not doing

1166
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:43,600
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. I'm not going through horrifying loss

1167
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 1: of dissolution of identity. UM. I seem to me, it's

1168
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 1: it's this, it's a way of of of of doing

1169
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: things to my mind and my body that are just

1170
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:59,720
Speaker 1: just creating new connections and thoughts and things and all

1171
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 1: of this that that that that just feels kind of

1172
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: life affirming and once in a while scary and hard. Um.

1173
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 1: But you know, I wonder about that because I hear

1174
01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:10,440
Speaker 1: about people go through the e and you know, and

1175
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 1: part of this I think I've always I don't think

1176
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 1: I've lived with much trauma in my life. I mean,

1177
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 1: there's been a few things, you know, but uh, but

1178
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 1: I don't know why that is. And maybe I'm just

1179
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:23,720
Speaker 1: I'm a very grounded person. And so I wonder if

1180
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 1: the day will come when I do high dose hiahuasca

1181
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 1: or d m T in the more pure form or

1182
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 1: something where I actually go through that we'll see. And

1183
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 1: we've been together an hour. You've been so generous with

1184
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 1: your personal story and sharing your your intimate situation. Thank

1185
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: you so much. I should also just say, I mean,

1186
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 1: what I also love is the fact that here it

1187
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: is in late the world appears to be going in

1188
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 1: some very dangerous and scary places. But one of the

1189
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 1: nice things that's happening is that you and I can

1190
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 1: talk openly about this and do it for other people,

1191
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 1: for strangers to listen to, and to do it without

1192
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 1: real fear, you know, I mean the willing the ability

1193
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 1: of people to be in talking first about their own

1194
01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: cannabis use a few years ago and now about psychedelic use.

1195
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 1: It's really represents, you know, a transformation or society. There's

1196
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: a coming out, not unlike what happened with gay people

1197
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:15,440
Speaker 1: being able to come out over time. And you know,

1198
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 1: I live. I realized there's always the possibility that the

1199
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 1: forces of repression will try to shove this genie back

1200
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:23,760
Speaker 1: in the bottle and try to hurt some of us

1201
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 1: who have spoken out and come out, because we know

1202
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 1: historically those things, these things do go in waves and

1203
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 1: things can go backwards. Um, so I think we need

1204
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 1: to be careful. But you know, I'm you and I

1205
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 1: are both out there speaking openly about these things, and uh,

1206
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 1: you know, none of us. We're all talking about our

1207
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 1: own personal consumption. We're not talking about selling these things

1208
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 1: or making money from them illegally or things like that.

1209
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: For me, the podcast has just been a blast because

1210
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 1: I'm having all these wonderful people on. You know, it

1211
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 1: might be Andrew Wild and Michael Pollen, it might be

1212
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 1: the academic doing a cannemine research. It was former you know,

1213
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 1: the U. S. Senator Chuck Schumer, you know, who's the

1214
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 1: majority leader, talking to him about his marijuana legalization bill.

1215
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: I had the former president of Colombia, the country Wamali

1216
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 1: Ol Santos, who won the Nobel Peace Prize five years ago.

1217
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 1: I had the head of National Student on Drug Abuse,

1218
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 1: Nora Vocal, who used to run away from me and

1219
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 1: now she's willing to be on my podcast. I've had

1220
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 1: some activists and some brilliant journalists and you know, so

1221
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 1: it's everything from talking having conversations like the one you

1222
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 1: and I are having here too, talking to politicians, talking

1223
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:29,360
Speaker 1: to I had the District Attorney of Philadelphia, who's a

1224
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:32,920
Speaker 1: progressive DA. So it's really spanning the spectrum. And the

1225
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 1: question for me is whether there will be an audience

1226
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 1: of people who want to hear one day about ketamine

1227
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 1: therapy and the next day about the politics of marijuana bill,

1228
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:44,440
Speaker 1: the next day about the overdose crisis in America, and

1229
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 1: the next day about how New York legalized marijuana, the

1230
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 1: next day about the head of the U. S. Government's

1231
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:53,360
Speaker 1: you know, drug Research funding Agency. But I think I'm

1232
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 1: I'm meeting more and more people strangers coming up to

1233
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: me not just in the US, but in Europe and elsewhere, saying, wow,

1234
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 1: I listen to your podcast, and so I'm I'm feeling

1235
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:06,120
Speaker 1: optimistic that there's going to be an audience. And you know,

1236
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:10,040
Speaker 1: I'm very grateful that Darren Aronovski, the movie director, reached

1237
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:11,520
Speaker 1: out to me. I knew him a little bit from

1238
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,040
Speaker 1: the Drug Policy Alliance days. He said, you want to

1239
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 1: do a podcast in the psychedelics. I said, no, I

1240
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 1: want to do one in all drugs. He said, let's

1241
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:20,320
Speaker 1: do it, and then he had teamed up with My Heart.

1242
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:22,800
Speaker 1: So he's made a lot of famous movies, but this

1243
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:25,959
Speaker 1: is his first podcast venture. So it's a good team.

1244
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 1: It's professional. It means there's commercials on it, which I

1245
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 1: don't like, but that's the model. Um and uh. I

1246
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:34,600
Speaker 1: can see I can see him behind the scene, because

1247
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 1: you're always looking a little bit for the conflicts. You know,

1248
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 1: you'll find a way to disagree with your guests. I

1249
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 1: see dar and behind saying you know you need the coach. No,

1250
01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:47,240
Speaker 1: actually he didn't need. He never said anything like that.

1251
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:49,520
Speaker 1: As I say in the opening episode, I am a

1252
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 1: contrarian deep down, and I think also that to have

1253
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 1: a podcast where you I mostly had people on there

1254
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 1: who I'm who I've learned from, who I generally agree with.

1255
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 1: But he can get boring if you were just agree

1256
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 1: And therefore I see it's my role to play Devil's advocate.

1257
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:07,760
Speaker 1: It's my role to challenge them, um even if I

1258
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 1: agree with them, and to say, how do you respond

1259
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:12,720
Speaker 1: to the critics who say this, um so. I think

1260
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 1: that's part of what makes it more interesting amazing. Thank

1261
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 1: you very much. What's the name of the podcast and

1262
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,680
Speaker 1: where they can find it again? It's called Psychoactive and

1263
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:23,439
Speaker 1: it is on all the major platforms. Thank you very much.

1264
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 1: Was a pleasure to chat with you. Good luck with

1265
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 1: this podcast as well, and I look forward to seeing

1266
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 1: you one of these days and visa for sure, come

1267
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 1: and visit. Thank you very much. Focus so natas so

1268
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:41,160
Speaker 1: no noond cock so nata so nana irond go god

1269
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:48,720
Speaker 1: so nata sona go God so Nata so nat go

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Speaker 1: god so not so not go God so na son.

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Speaker 1: Next week I'll be talking with Professor Neil Carrier at

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Speaker 1: the University of Bristol in the UK about cut the

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Speaker 1: fascinating drug plant from the Horn of Africa and Yemen.

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Speaker 1: A friend of mine actually had a really really nice

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Speaker 1: way of describing the effects of CAT as being something

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01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,840
Speaker 1: that if you sit down in an armchair and you're

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01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 1: not quite comfortable, but then suddenly you just shift your

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Speaker 1: body and you find that place where you know your

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01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:34,920
Speaker 1: body is completely comfortable. CAT seems to be a little

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01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:37,719
Speaker 1: bit like that. It is quite a quite a subtle effect.

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Speaker 1: You know that, the way it makes you makes you feel,

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01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:42,639
Speaker 1: but it you know it. It is quite a quite

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01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:46,720
Speaker 1: a pleasant substance. Subscribe to Psychoactive now see it all,

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Speaker 1: miss it