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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Seger,

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Speaker 1: and hey audience. For this episode, we just want to

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Speaker 1: let you know up top that this is something that

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Speaker 1: you may not want to listen to with children in

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Speaker 1: the car or something like that, or you know, you

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Speaker 1: may want to discern when and where you actually listened

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Speaker 1: to the episode because the topic is controversial and a

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Speaker 1: little touchy. That's right. If you remember back to two

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Speaker 1: thousand fifteen, we published an episode titled the Science of Necrophilia,

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Speaker 1: in which we set out to explain and demystify a

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Speaker 1: taboo and disturbing practice, and I think we achieved that.

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Speaker 1: In this episode, we're going to explore the topic of

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Speaker 1: zoophilia with the same goals in mind. Now that being said, again,

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Speaker 1: we want to give listeners fair warning about the topic,

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Speaker 1: even though we'll be tackling it with the same level

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Speaker 1: of tact and a quorum that we apply to other

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Speaker 1: topics of this nature exactly. So, if you just are

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Speaker 1: a subscriber to our show and this is downloaded to

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Speaker 1: your feet and it's auto playing, or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Now is your opportunity to hit pause and wait until

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Speaker 1: you're in a more comfortable situation, or or skip to

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Speaker 1: the next episode if you want to. Uh So, here

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Speaker 1: we go. This is the zoophilia episode of Stuff to

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Speaker 1: Blow your mind. All right, now we have disclaimers out

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Speaker 1: of the way, let's jump right into it. Was just say,

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Speaker 1: a clinical definition. What are we talking about when we

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Speaker 1: talk about zoophilia? Okay? So, zoophilia is typically defined as recurrent,

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Speaker 1: intense sexual fantasies, urges, and sexual activities with non human animals.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes viewers and listeners don't like it when we use

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Speaker 1: the term non human animals, but here I think it's

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Speaker 1: especially appropriate. Uh. There are defined variations about this based

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Speaker 1: on species. There's a lot of variations on this. I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to like really like rattle everybody's heads with

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Speaker 1: all the various terminology, but suffice to say there's variations

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Speaker 1: based on dogs, cats, horses, pigs, birds, dolphins, lizards, and insects. Now,

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Speaker 1: the word zoo file is Greek for animal lover. But

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Speaker 1: today zoophilia is defined as a paraphilia. That means it's

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Speaker 1: an unusual sexual activity that deviates from what is considered

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Speaker 1: normal at a particular time in a particular society, and

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Speaker 1: these are currently classified as psychological disorders that become basically

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Speaker 1: the person's prime means of gratification. It displaces their sexual

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Speaker 1: content with a consenting adult partner. This can include anything

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Speaker 1: from fantasies to sexual urges to actual behaviors. But in

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Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen a paper was written by Ranger and

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Speaker 1: feder Off, and this was in the Journal of the

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Speaker 1: American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law about definitions in

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Speaker 1: regards to this. And I have to admit that until

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Speaker 1: we sat down in did the research for this episode,

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Speaker 1: I was a little murky on the terminology myself. So

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Speaker 1: zoophilia can be confusing, especially when you try to distinguish

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Speaker 1: it from the term beast. Reality, it's worth reminding ourselves

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Speaker 1: before we get too far into this. Humans are not

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Speaker 1: the only ones who risk misreading sexual interest in other species.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of evidence we've talked about on the

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Speaker 1: show before, whether it's chimpanzees, dogs, or horses. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean one of the issues here, of course, is that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we find plenty of examples of sexual violence and other

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Speaker 1: species as well as cases of interspecies sexual activity. But

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Speaker 1: but humans are the only practitioners who truly possess rationality

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Speaker 1: and consciousness in a in the human sense. Naturally, we've

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Speaker 1: discussed in past episodes, you know, to what degree to

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Speaker 1: other animals have consciousness? To what degree are other animals aware?

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Speaker 1: And you know, you can go back and forth, and

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Speaker 1: there's some tremendous research that's been done in those areas.

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Speaker 1: But even in cases where there is arguably consciousness, it

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Speaker 1: is a different consciousness, you know, they are just separate

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Speaker 1: mind states at work here. And on top of that,

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Speaker 1: we're the only species that has ethics and laws and

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Speaker 1: a very you know, written down and culturally enforced manner,

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Speaker 1: and we're the only ones to whom consent has a

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Speaker 1: human meaning, right, And this is super important to the topic.

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Speaker 1: But we're actually going to diverge here and we're gonna

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Speaker 1: sort of split the topics so that we can cover

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Speaker 1: this concisely today. So let's begin by using this distinction.

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Speaker 1: Going forward, for the rest of the episode, we're going

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Speaker 1: to refer to zoophilia as a psychological condition and a

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Speaker 1: psychological condition as well discuss that does not necessarily involve

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Speaker 1: contact with the animal exactly, whereas beast reality is a

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Speaker 1: legal term that is used to describe the act of Okay, Now,

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Speaker 1: if you look at the Diagnostic UH and Statistical Manual

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Speaker 1: of Mental Disorder is probably our favorite book on the

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Speaker 1: show to site UH. It includes zoophilia. It's been in

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Speaker 1: there since the third edition. The current edition defines it

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Speaker 1: as quote recurrent and intense sexual arousal involving animals, But

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Speaker 1: it doesn't differentiate between the sex, age or type of animals,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't specify what sex acts, if any, actually

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Speaker 1: occur with an animal, and what circumstances maybe, and what

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Speaker 1: the purpose maybe of this zoophilia. So Ranger and Federof

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Speaker 1: again I turned back to their paper. They make a

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Speaker 1: really good point in that when you compare all of

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Speaker 1: the studies of which we found out, there is a

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Speaker 1: lot of research with this, like so much way more

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Speaker 1: than there was when we did our necrophilia episode. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It turns out that because none of those distinctions are

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Speaker 1: made in the d s M, they aren't really made

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Speaker 1: in a lot of the papers either. So the terminology

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Speaker 1: that's used to compare and contrast this psychological condition as

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Speaker 1: it's to find is very loose and subsequently they find

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Speaker 1: it to be somewhat meaningless. Essentially that like we need

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Speaker 1: to come up with a better terminology or a better categorization, right,

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Speaker 1: and and that's something we'll get into as well. Somebody

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Speaker 1: has done that. Yeah. I think what one of the

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Speaker 1: interesting things to come out of the research here is

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Speaker 1: that there is a there is a lot of a

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Speaker 1: lot has been written about zoophilia, and yet there are

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Speaker 1: and so many questions that still remain. There's still there's

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Speaker 1: still so much room for additional research. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: most of the studies we looked at, they concentrate on

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Speaker 1: the act of beast reality, and we decided, okay, ground

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Speaker 1: rules for this episode. First of all, we're gonna try

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Speaker 1: to just stay away from just like sensationalized stories about

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Speaker 1: acts of beast reality, right, We're to focus on the

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Speaker 1: zoophiliac preference for a human to be attracted to another animal. Also,

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Speaker 1: there is so much conversation about legal issues surrounding zoophilia

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Speaker 1: that there's no way we could possibly put it all

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Speaker 1: into this episode as well, it would have to be

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Speaker 1: an entire other episode. So we're leaving out legal and

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Speaker 1: ethical questions out of our notes. For today's episode. We'll

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Speaker 1: probably circle back around and ask some of those questions

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Speaker 1: again at the end of the episode, and certainly we

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Speaker 1: want to hear from you the audience what comes up

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Speaker 1: for you. In fact, in our discussion module on Facebook,

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Speaker 1: we've already been talking about this and some interesting points

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Speaker 1: about legal and ethical issues have already been brought up.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, We've reached out just to see what

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Speaker 1: kind of initial questions and initial levels of understanding of

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Speaker 1: this topic might be there. And I think that's ultimately

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Speaker 1: what this episode is about, an attempt to understand zoophilia

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Speaker 1: to the extent that most of us can. Yeah, all right,

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Speaker 1: So now that we've got like a setup and a

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Speaker 1: framework for the episode, let's let's do this. Let's get

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Speaker 1: into this because there's a lot of interesting information here.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with the history and myth underpinning zoophilia. So

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Speaker 1: there is a long tradition of it being in mythology,

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Speaker 1: and it usually we chooses animals that have characteristics that

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Speaker 1: symbolize what our human ideals are, right, and if you look,

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Speaker 1: there's prehistoric depictions of zoophilia that have been found in Siberia, Italy, France,

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Speaker 1: and Sweden allegedly, also the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Hebrews, and

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Speaker 1: Romans took part in similar activities as well. Okay, there's

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Speaker 1: also evidence that during the Middle Ages, zoophilia was a

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Speaker 1: tolerated practice, and this was up until the sixteenth century.

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Speaker 1: It became religiously and culturally shamed because of a prohibition

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Speaker 1: against all nonreproductive sexual activities. So this is important when

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Speaker 1: we were talking about the definition of it earlier regarding

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Speaker 1: quote deviancy, right, that it entails the rest of society

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Speaker 1: agreeing upon what deviancy is. And apparently at this point

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Speaker 1: it was not. Uh So today, of course, there is

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Speaker 1: a taboo surrounding it because not just of you know,

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Speaker 1: religious reasons of nonreproductive sexual activities, but also because society

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Speaker 1: has a moral concern about cruelty to animals. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: that's that's definitely something we're going to come back to

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Speaker 1: again and again here. Now, when we mentioned mythology and zoophilia,

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Speaker 1: I imagine a few examples come to everyone's mind, particularly

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Speaker 1: as far as Western traditions are concerned. So the Greek

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Speaker 1: god Zeus, for instance, took the form of a bull,

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Speaker 1: a swan, an eagle, to seduce or kidnap or in

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Speaker 1: one case, copulate with a mortal woman. I totally remember

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Speaker 1: reading that as a kid, like reading about Greek myths

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Speaker 1: and being like, wait a minute, like that there was

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Speaker 1: like some it was like there was there was something

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Speaker 1: missing from the narrative explaining how that whole thing worked. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I definitely remember reading the myths as well and having

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Speaker 1: having some questions about what was really going on here.

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Speaker 1: Um and and certainly that you know, this is an

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Speaker 1: odd case in and on itself. Just to consider a

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Speaker 1: a humanoid entity such as Zeus taking the form of

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Speaker 1: an animal, uh and then engaging in the sex act

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Speaker 1: with a human. We again we have we have an

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Speaker 1: inhuman agent, but one that's essentially humanoid in nature, in

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Speaker 1: an original form, and it takes the form of a

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Speaker 1: beast to pursue and only in some tellings engaged sexually

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Speaker 1: with a human female. This is how you can tell

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Speaker 1: that it's taboo in our society now, right, Like imagine,

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Speaker 1: just try to imagine for Ragnarok. I just went and

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Speaker 1: saw that this weekend. It is about similar mythologies, right,

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Speaker 1: it's a different cultures mythology. But there would never in

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Speaker 1: a million years be a movie where Odin turns into

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Speaker 1: a bowl and goes to Earth and has sex with

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Speaker 1: a human woman that would probably not get past the

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Speaker 1: the sensors. Now, in other myths, it's important to know

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Speaker 1: we have many varieties of this tale. So in some cases, yes,

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Speaker 1: humans or humanoid entities take a page from the Zeus

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Speaker 1: playbook and they masquerade as an animal, and then sometimes

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Speaker 1: that masquerade results in in sex. But we also have

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Speaker 1: the reversal in which an animal masquerades as a human,

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Speaker 1: and in these cases, certainly the sex isn't physically human,

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Speaker 1: but it kind of presents fifty of the zoophilic essence.

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Speaker 1: I read. I read an article for this title, The

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Speaker 1: Mythology of Masquerading Animals or Best Reality, by Windy Donager

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Speaker 1: who published in the journal Social Research. In this and

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Speaker 1: she makes some some I think, very interesting points that

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Speaker 1: kind of help illuminate again the mythic underpinnings of what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about here today. So she says that animals,

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Speaker 1: first of all, often stand in as surrogates in our myths,

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Speaker 1: surrogate parents for a royal child, for example, a surrogan

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Speaker 1: victim for a child taken into the woods to be murdered.

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Speaker 1: We all remember some of the tellings of Snow White, correct,

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Speaker 1: with the UH taking the child into the woods to

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Speaker 1: a murder and bringing back an animal's heart instead. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so this gets back to the idea of the animal

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Speaker 1: being a symbol for human ethics, human culture, human beliefs. Now,

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Speaker 1: there there are two complementary animal paradigms here, she says,

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Speaker 1: lowly animals standing in for low social classes and regal

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Speaker 1: or high animals standing in for higher human classes or

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Speaker 1: even the gods. And she points out that some argue

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Speaker 1: that Christianity itself borrows from the Greek tale of Zeus

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Speaker 1: taking the form of a swan to impregnate Lata. The

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Speaker 1: argument here is that instead we get married, and the

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Speaker 1: symbol of the dove is a sort of mythological reverberation

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Speaker 1: of the Greek myth. In either case, we see humans

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Speaker 1: marrying above or beneath their stature. Interesting. Okay, I had

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Speaker 1: not thought of it that way, but yeah, that definitely

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Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, And in the the whole stature question,

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Speaker 1: it's going to come back again and again because I

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Speaker 1: think so much in the zoo zoophilia UH conundrum has

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Speaker 1: to do with what is the level of the human

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Speaker 1: and what is the level of the animal that Like,

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Speaker 1: So this idea is interesting because I think it's somewhat

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Speaker 1: ties into present day language as well. Class is something

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Speaker 1: that's very difficult to discuss even today, Like we have

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Speaker 1: a hard time talking about it in I guess public company, right.

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Speaker 1: Uh So it seems like in order to get around

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Speaker 1: that these myths used animals as like a substitute for

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Speaker 1: class affiliations. Yeah. Indeed. Now she argues that even non

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Speaker 1: religious stories with human animal sexual interaction have theological ramifications.

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Speaker 1: And I found this very interesting. She she points to

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Speaker 1: the trope of feet betraying the status of an entity.

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Speaker 1: So we've covered before. One of my favorite topics is

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Speaker 1: succubiny and incubie and uh and and there are stories

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Speaker 1: about how you can identify a succubus because her feet

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Speaker 1: will give her away. Yeah, so she may look like

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Speaker 1: a beautiful woman, but if you look at her feet,

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Speaker 1: they're like duck feet. Because I believe in the witchcraft

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Speaker 1: treaties that I was reading about this, the argument is

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Speaker 1: that that God would never present, uh you know, a

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Speaker 1: completely um unbeatable challenge that there be for the faithful

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Speaker 1: if you're faithful enough to doubt it and then look

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Speaker 1: at the feet, think it was a way out. And

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Speaker 1: somehow over the years that's turned more into like goat

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Speaker 1: hooves instead of duct feet. Yeah, there's been more more

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Speaker 1: monstrous version of the feet. But I see it come

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Speaker 1: up to time and time again. Uh. It even came

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Speaker 1: up recently on the Netflix series Big Mouth. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you're watching risque comedy about puberty, but there's

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Speaker 1: a demon that shows up and its nature is given

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Speaker 1: away by its feet. So, um, this is not only

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Speaker 1: the case with lesser beings, but even in the higher beings.

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Speaker 1: She appoints to the case in Hinduism where the feet

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Speaker 1: of mortals touched the ground while higher beings float quote

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Speaker 1: like a hovercraft, and then they're There are additional examples.

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Speaker 1: You have the idea of feet of clay, the bruised

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Speaker 1: heel of Eve Christ as quote, the hunted stag whose

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Speaker 1: foot is stained with blood. You have Achilles in his

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Speaker 1: heel as well, which she also points out that he

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Speaker 1: was the son of a goddess with equine qualities and

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Speaker 1: was raised by a centaur. So you get into this

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Speaker 1: this area where where you have to ask why Why

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Speaker 1: the feet? What is it about the feet that gives

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Speaker 1: us some clue to the stature of an animal or

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Speaker 1: or a being. Probably because they're incredibly vulnerable to write like, like,

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Speaker 1: in terms of human anatomy, I think of feet as being,

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Speaker 1: you know, especially before we built like steel toed boots,

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Speaker 1: they're incredibly vulnerable pieces of anatomy. Well, yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: that's a that's a huge part of it, because to

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Speaker 1: to wear shoes is an act of a sort of

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Speaker 1: a you know, a higher state of humanity. I guess,

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Speaker 1: I mean we we have more conflicted feelings about that today. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: an idea of like walking barefoot through the park has

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Speaker 1: a certain appeal now that it might not have had previously. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it is a way to pick up parasites or

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Speaker 1: get something stuck in your foot. Uh And And likewise,

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Speaker 1: we get into this area where we consider the legs

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Speaker 1: of an organism, how many legs does it have? And

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Speaker 1: this is often used to determine status. When we see

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Speaker 1: that in Leviticus, we see that with Aristotle. Uh And

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Speaker 1: the argument here is that a lot of this derives

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Speaker 1: from the fact that hands define humans, and therefore, if

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Speaker 1: you lack a pair of a feat that means that

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Speaker 1: you probably have hands. Uh. And also our ancestors were trackers,

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Speaker 1: they were hunters. This is how we identified other forms

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Speaker 1: of life, tracking their movements. And this is the strategy

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Speaker 1: we turned to when a strange creature must be identified. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's also the sphinx four ft two feet

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Speaker 1: three feet in the riddle of the sphinx, you know

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Speaker 1: the uh of being that is that has a different

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Speaker 1: number of legs in the morning and uh the afternoon

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Speaker 1: in the evening. And the argument here is that tales

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Speaker 1: of transformation, animals turning into people, people turning into animals.

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Speaker 1: It comes down to the same thing. She says, stories

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Speaker 1: about animal lovers present two variants of a single truth.

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Speaker 1: A human being is really an animal, but the weight

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Speaker 1: of reality is placed differently in different variants, so that

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Speaker 1: when the story ends and the masquerade is over, either

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Speaker 1: there is a human or there is an animal. It

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Speaker 1: does matter. Generally speaking, the forms are distributed as in

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Speaker 1: as in the motif marriage to beast by day man

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Speaker 1: by night, And of course the opposite is uh is

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Speaker 1: true in some cases where the entity is a man

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Speaker 1: by day and a beast by night, but it's going

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Speaker 1: to be one of these two. And you and I

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Speaker 1: were talking about this before we went into the studio

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Speaker 1: to this is sort of both the constant struggle but

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Speaker 1: also the desires sometimes to give into the feral animal

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Speaker 1: nature of humanity, right, And there's so many examples in

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Speaker 1: the episodes we've done of various cultures trying to attain

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Speaker 1: that state, yeah, without any kind of a zoophilic or

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Speaker 1: more sexual connotation as well, like animal transformations, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it goes back into prehistory. So Donator argues,

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Speaker 1: quote the key seems to be that the true form

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Speaker 1: is the one that appears at night, an interesting assertion

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Speaker 1: of the primacy of what is hidden the time of

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Speaker 1: dreaming over what is apparent the time of the workaday world.

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Speaker 1: So probably wondering, well, what are these myths saying? Well,

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Speaker 1: she argues that on one hand, ancient people live closely

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Speaker 1: with animals, so their forms and their behaviors were natural

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Speaker 1: metaphors for human sexuality, and they also may have employed

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Speaker 1: unconscious symbolism in identifying the animal aspects of themselves. But

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Speaker 1: we're also talking about sexual trickery here, both both the

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Speaker 1: with mythic animals and mythic humanoids. But this is this

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Speaker 1: is really quite in keeping with not only human sexuality,

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Speaker 1: but the reproductive strategies of countless species. So to what

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Speaker 1: extent are we just you know, using these animals as

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Speaker 1: metaphors to understand it all? And she also points out

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Speaker 1: that animals sometimes mistake us for their mates, uh, often

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Speaker 1: through the process of imprinting. She brings it all to

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Speaker 1: it to a head, I think with this this final

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Speaker 1: quote here, she says animals to have their sexual illusions,

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Speaker 1: Thus they provide us with both basic data and basic

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Speaker 1: metaphors with which to formulate our own sexual masquerades. For

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Speaker 1: we too are subject to the magic of imprinting when,

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Speaker 1: like those mocking birds, we use animals as mirrors in

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Speaker 1: the construction of our own self deceptive self images. So

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Speaker 1: this actually brings up something for me that is going

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Speaker 1: to come up in the research later, but I want

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Speaker 1: to just put a pin on it here, right. Uh,

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Speaker 1: Kinsey did some research into this, and we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: that data later, but it ties in very closely with

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Speaker 1: what she's saying about early humans living closely with animals, right,

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Speaker 1: and Kinsey's research touched upon that that. Uh. In fact,

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Speaker 1: according to his research, and it's been since been disputed

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Speaker 1: that rural farm communities are more likely to have instances

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Speaker 1: of zoophilia than like urban ones where there's less animals. Now,

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Speaker 1: I will say this, I think that one of the

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Speaker 1: tame comes from all this is that we can't just

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Speaker 1: look at myths and religious treatments as near literal invocations

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Speaker 1: of beast reality, Like can't say, well, zeus turn into

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Speaker 1: a swan and copulated with a woman. Therefore, this is

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Speaker 1: proof positive that that beast reality and zoophilia were were

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Speaker 1: common and accepted. But at the same time, I feel

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Speaker 1: like there's a there's a lot of truth in her

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Speaker 1: statement about quote we about us using animals as mirrors,

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Speaker 1: because I think I think it not only explains a

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Speaker 1: lot about what's going on in mythic zoophilia, but it

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Speaker 1: might just tie into some of the pathological aspects of

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Speaker 1: the topic that we're discussing here. Yeah, yeah, I tend

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Speaker 1: to agree. I think my position on this, after looking

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Speaker 1: at all the research, is somewhere around that we as

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Speaker 1: human beings are not very good at understanding feelings of

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Speaker 1: strong emotion and and like we sometimes confuse those. But

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Speaker 1: also there's lots of evidence to that this. There's no

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Speaker 1: confusion going on here right as we're going to discuss.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know, let's keep going. This is

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Speaker 1: a this is a weird one for us. It's hard

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Speaker 1: to come down on any particular add on this, but well,

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Speaker 1: I mean outside of saying outside of the law, right right, Um,

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Speaker 1: And I'd say it's hard to come down on a

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Speaker 1: position that that clearly explains exactly. Yeah, that's what I meant.

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Speaker 1: So why don't we take a break, will visit a sponsor,

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Speaker 1: and then when we come back, we're going to get

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Speaker 1: into who exactly zoo files are. Alright, we're back. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's one thing to talk about ancient people's and mythological tales,

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Speaker 1: but let's get into the into understanding exactly who zoo

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Speaker 1: files are. Right. So, as I mentioned earlier, and actually

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Speaker 1: I see this now in your note that you made

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Speaker 1: the same Uh made the same comment that I just

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Speaker 1: made earlier. In the nineteen fifties, Dr Alfred Kinsey, everybody

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Speaker 1: remembers that movie with Liam Neeson, right, Uh, published the

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Speaker 1: Kinsey Reports on the American Sexual Practice. And in that report,

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Speaker 1: it claimed that eight percent of males and four percent

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Speaker 1: of females had had at least one sexual experience with

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Speaker 1: an animal. There was also a high are prevalence for

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Speaker 1: these acts for people who worked on farms. There's according

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Speaker 1: to the that research, it was up to seventeen percent. Mail. Now,

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Speaker 1: Kinsey had a book that came out in nineteen and

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Speaker 1: this was with Wardell Pomeroy and Clyde Martin. It's called

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Speaker 1: The Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. That also reported

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Speaker 1: that fifty percent of the population of male Americans who

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Speaker 1: lived on rural farms claimed to have sexual contact with

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Speaker 1: other species. Subsequently, Kinsey advised clinicians to assure such men

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Speaker 1: if they came to them and you know, they were

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Speaker 1: having some kind of a crises about this, that this

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Speaker 1: was a normal part of being raised in a rural environment.

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Speaker 1: And the reasons why we're one that females were scarce

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Speaker 1: into that premarital relations were strictly forbidden. This is somewhat

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Speaker 1: unfortunate as we find the sort of the history of

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Speaker 1: studying zoophilia move forward to present day, because it caused

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Speaker 1: most people to assume that zoo files were male, woman deprived,

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Speaker 1: rural and poorly educated. So it going back to our

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Speaker 1: discussion of class I mean, it turns into a purely

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Speaker 1: class issue, like this is a a working class, lower

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Speaker 1: class conundrum. This is what essentially, this is what poor

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Speaker 1: uneducated people do. Yeah. And in fact, in some of

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Speaker 1: the later research that we'll talk about in here, you'll

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Speaker 1: find that one of the first qualifiers that's added to

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Speaker 1: any of the anonymous case studies is just so you know,

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Speaker 1: this person has like a real job, like this person

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Speaker 1: is a doctor, or this person is a lawyer. You know,

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Speaker 1: they they feel the need to qualify it somehow like that. Now,

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Speaker 1: along with zoophilia, psychologist John Money has studied paraphilia extensively,

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Speaker 1: and he claims to have identified about forty variant behaviors

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Speaker 1: of paraphilia. Money was actually world renowned in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventies and he claimed that zoophilic behavior was actually transitory

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Speaker 1: when there were no other sexual outlets available to people.

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Speaker 1: Uh In a n T study that found that males

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Speaker 1: ranked quote sexual expressiveness as the highest motivating factor for

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Speaker 1: their zoophilia and emotional involvement as the lowest, it subsequently

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Speaker 1: was reversed where female zoo files reported that emotional involvement

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Speaker 1: was their highest motivating factor and sexual expressiveness was their

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Speaker 1: lowest motivating factor. So okay, we're already beginning to see

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Speaker 1: why there needs to be categorization difference both between the

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Speaker 1: gender of the humans involved but also the gender of

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Speaker 1: the animals involved. Right then, in the two thousands, further

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Speaker 1: research found all that stuff to be false. While there

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Speaker 1: are case reports of individuals who seek treatment for this

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Speaker 1: as an unusual sexual preference, many like minded people are

428
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: coming together on the Internet in forums that are dedicated

429
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 1: to zoo file communities. This is something that came up

430
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 1: in our discussion module. People we're mentioning like there's certain

431
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: areas of Reddit, I guess or like um. They had

432
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: mentioned particular websites that you can go to if like

433
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: this is your interest, right right, And I think I

434
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: want to if anyone out there is already like god,

435
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can keep going to this world.

436
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: Right Well, bear in mind, we're going to talk about

437
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: some of the classifications for zoo files, and again, most

438
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: of these classifications do not involve contact with the animal

439
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: with or at least several of them do not. Yeah, yeah,

440
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: And I think that's an important like thing for trying

441
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: to understand this better too. And I saw this This

442
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: is probably important to mention that, like in the literature,

443
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 1: there is a lot of comparison to how this is

444
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 1: studied with how pedophilia is studied. And we've actually had

445
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: people right into us and say, oh, can you guys

446
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 1: do an episode on the paraphilia of pedophilia, and we

447
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 1: we have not done that yet. We we did get

448
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: into it a little bit on the the Robot sex spot.

449
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: You're right, I forgot about that, and one of the

450
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 1: take comes in that, as I recall, was that a

451
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: great deal of the research into pedophilia was based on

452
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: studies of criminals, and there was this theory that was

453
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: put forth that, well, what if there are two types

454
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: of individuals with these inclinations, those who act upon them

455
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: and those who have them under control, And it seems

456
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: that you could make a similar argument for for other

457
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: paraphilias as well. Yeah, this is especially interesting to me

458
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: that that's a similar thing that happened in zoophilia studies

459
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: at the beginning. But it's especially interesting to me because

460
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 1: I just binged Mine Hunter on Netflix, which is obviously

461
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 1: you have as well, and so it's about if you

462
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: haven't seen it, it's about the early days of the

463
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: FBI learning how to psychologically profile serial killers, and there's

464
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: a lot of similarities in how they studied for that

465
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: and the problems with their methodology that come into these

466
00:26:55,640 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: other psychological profiles for what are defined as criminal acts. Right, Okay,

467
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: So it should also be noted that most of the

468
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: published studies on zoophilia use non clinical samples for their data.

469
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: That means like a lot of it is anonymous data

470
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 1: or it's just you know, people that they're they're they're finding,

471
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: for instance, on these internet sites, the claims that they're making.

472
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: The studies find that the majority of self identified zoo

473
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: files actually don't have sex with animals because there's no

474
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: other sexual outlet, but because it is actually their sexual preference.

475
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: So then you get into a complicated thing. They're right

476
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 1: where it's it's the same thing as saying, well, if

477
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 1: heterosexuality is your sexual preference, then why isn't that defined

478
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: as a as a deviant disorder? Right? And once again

479
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: it comes down to society and ethics and culture. Uh. Now,

480
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: reasons here include a attraction to animals out of desire

481
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: and affection, but also be sexual attraction that's based on

482
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 1: love for animals. Now, This is a really crucial study

483
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: in zoophilia. Research came out in two thousand two. It's

484
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: Dr Hani Miletski, and they surveyed ninety three zoo files

485
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: for more information. She found the following statistics. Only twelve

486
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: percent of her sample engaged in sex with animals because

487
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: there were no human partners available. Okay, So that seems

488
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 1: to automatically disqualify that that idea that Kinsey presented us,

489
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: the idea of saying, a rural individual who does not

490
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: have contact with human females and then there four turns

491
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: to animals. Yeah, exactly seven percent said the reason why

492
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: was because they were too shy to have sex with humans.

493
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: So again, that is a very low percentage comparatively to

494
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: sort of I think the stereotypical understanding. This number is

495
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: going to blow you away. A hundred percent of the

496
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: women said it was because they were sexually attracted to animals.

497
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: So all of the women that she interviewed said that.

498
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: Six of the women said that it was because of

499
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: their love affection for the animals. Of the women also

500
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: said it was because the animal itself wanted to have

501
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: sex with them. Now, Letski's sample trended towards dogs and horses.

502
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: And this is something I think we were finding throughout

503
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: the literature, right that that those seem to be the

504
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: most common. Specially dolphins come up occasionally as well. But

505
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: let's be honest, how many of us have like ready

506
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: access to dolphins. Yeah. One of the things we see

507
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: time and time again is that it tends to concern

508
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: domesticated animals, and and you and you have to realize

509
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: that domesticated animals are in and of themselves a rather

510
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: perverse thing, you know. I mean, it's a very human thing.

511
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: It's what we've been doing for ages. It's a it's

512
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: a part of human civilization. But we subjugated animals and

513
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: transformed them and and use them as tools. We use

514
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: them as as you know, beasts of labor. We use

515
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: them as a as a as a ready food source,

516
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: we use them to fulfill our desires. And and that

517
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: is occasionally brought up as an argument in favor of zoophilia, saying, well, look,

518
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: this is how we use animals elsewhere in our world,

519
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: why not for this area as well. Yeah, you know,

520
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: as many of the listeners know, I'm an animal person

521
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: who've got two dogs and two cats, and Uh, I

522
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: think about this a lot, right that like that sort

523
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: of the negotiation, the deal between us is like they

524
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: get to live in comfortable domesticity where they're fed and

525
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: sheltered and everything, but the subsequent expectation is that they

526
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: need to follow the human rules of being right. And

527
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: with my my female pit bulldog that I recently acquired

528
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: in the last two years, she is uh, what's referred

529
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: to as a reactive dog. She's very difficult in terms

530
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: of how she relates to other dogs and like territorial right, uh,

531
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: And so that's been a challenge for us. We've had

532
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: to do a lot of training with her. But there's

533
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: a part of me inside that's like, why am I

534
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: uh forced her to try to behave in a way

535
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: that isn't natural for her? Oh? Yeah. We run into

536
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: that all the time with our with our cat Mochi,

537
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: because Mochi is an indoor cat and she's our first

538
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: purely indoor cat, and so she has all of these

539
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: natural inclinations to to hunt, mainly that are not met

540
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: by her indoor life, and so she has to take

541
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: those impulses out, usually on my feet while I'm trying

542
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: to walk around the house, he'll attack me. And I

543
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: feel like I can only get so mad about that

544
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: because on on one hand, yes, I my feet should

545
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: not be hunted for sport. But on the other hand,

546
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: we're the ones who took a wild creature or you know,

547
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: by we, I mean humans. We took this wild creature

548
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: and decided it should live inside of a of an

549
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: artificial environment. Right, And so then you get to this

550
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: point with zoophilia, and it's that is an extremeline to draw.

551
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: That is like, well, as part of the negotiation of domesticity,

552
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: we have sexual relationships. Um, so I think that that

553
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: is why a lot of people, ourselves included, have a

554
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: really difficult time talking about this. But hey, the show

555
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: is called Stuff to Blow your Mind. It's I think

556
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: we felt like we had to tackle this but also

557
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: do it in you know, a mature conversational way. Yeah,

558
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: I mean to to chan all the other words of

559
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: of the Timothy Leary, you know, putting ourselves in that

560
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: state of vulnerable open mindedness, and uh, it's it can

561
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: be a very uncomfortable state of open mind. Yeah. Yeah,

562
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: as long as we all know that we're all uncomfortable together,

563
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: I think we're good. Uh. Two more quotes from Honey

564
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: Militzky study, and these are related. I actually, only eight

565
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: percent of the males that she interviewed wanted to stop

566
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: their zoo philip behavior. None of the females that she

567
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: interviewed did so. Again, so a hundred percent of them

568
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: said they were a hundred percent of the females she

569
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: interviewed said they were sexually attracted to animals, and none

570
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: of them said they wanted to stop their behavior. Seventy

571
00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: one of all of her subjects considered themselves to be

572
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: totally well adjusted in their current lives, so the idea

573
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: of the of the paraphilia being a mental disorder was

574
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: sort of anathema to them. Huh. Now, I we don't

575
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,239
Speaker 1: have the data here for this, but I wonder how

576
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: that matches up with like just the public in general.

577
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: What percent of just humans consider think that they have

578
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: a you know, a well adjusted life. Man. That is

579
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: a really good question, and I bet it's changed with

580
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: our generation. Yeah, I mean since obviously, you know, uh

581
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: Madmen was basically about this. Since like the fifties, the

582
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: idea of psychological dysfunction in American society has become more

583
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: and more prevalent. But I feel like our generation is

584
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: the first one that's really kind of comfortable just sitting

585
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: in it and saying like, oh, yeah, we're screwed up. Yeah.

586
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: And then you know, to what extent are you more

587
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: likely to express contentment with your life if there is

588
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: this um, this, this this abnormal aspect to it. You know,

589
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: it's kind of like you're if you're willing to go

590
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: down this particular abnormal road far enough, then of course

591
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: you're going to be okay with it. You're going to

592
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: wrap it into your understanding of your personal reality. I

593
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: don't know, that's that's kind of an open question. I

594
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: can think of arguments on either side. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely,

595
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: I mean I guess you can see that. And just

596
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 1: like behaviors that aren't considered deviant but are just like

597
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: not necessarily popular. Right. Um, So there's other studies that

598
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: seem to indicate that zoo files are not suffering from

599
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: significant distress or impairment as a result of their behavior.

600
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: Malitsky's study said that most subjects reported being happy and

601
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: that they were not interested in altering their behavior. Then,

602
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 1: in two thousand two, Christopher Earls and Martin Lamier published

603
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: a study on a fifty four year old convict. So

604
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: again we're getting into this where you're you're talking with

605
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: people who are already imprisoned. But this was a person

606
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: who had strong sexual interest in horses. They hooked this

607
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: person up to a penile pleasmo graph and they showed

608
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: him nude pictures of a variety of humans in various ages,

609
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: and then they also showed him slides of cats, dogs, sheep, chickens,

610
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: and cows. It was only when they showed him images

611
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: of horses that he responded physically. This seems to suggest

612
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 1: that zoophilia, while extraordinarily rare, maybe a sexual orientation instead

613
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: of a disorder. But this is this is I think

614
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: like the huge questions surrounding all the research on this

615
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: right is how do you define that? And then how

616
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: do you how do you provide evidence for that? Yeah, yeah,

617
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: I have to have to say this was definitely a

618
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: stumbling point for me with this topic, like trying to

619
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: think about how zoophilia works as an orientation, for instance,

620
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: how would it be supported by natural selection? For instance,

621
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 1: if you take homosexual behavior that there are numerous evolutionary

622
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: mechanisms possibly involved there. But I'm I'm having a hard

623
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: time seeing what what those mechanisms might be. For spiel Leah,

624
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it might be as simple as they're just

625
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: being no adaptive benefits whatsoever. Uh. And again I wonder

626
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: if if you could chalk it up to being just

627
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: a complication of domestication in general, which again, is itself

628
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: a fairly unnatural act from a biological perspective. See. I

629
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 1: think that is a real interesting approach. And I didn't

630
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 1: see that in any of the literature so far, but

631
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: maybe it's out there. But you're right. I think the

632
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: idea of domestication in general and like the things that

633
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: go along with it, maybe so unnatural in and of

634
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: themselves that they promote this behavior. So Earls and lump Lalomier.

635
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: Sorry I'm butchering that name. I know, I am. They

636
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: revisited the topic again in two thousand nine. Uh. And

637
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: then this was published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior.

638
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: It's another case study. This time it was about a

639
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: forty seven year old man who was attracted to horses.

640
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: He described his attempts with women as quote, foreign, distasteful, repulsive, mechanical, forced,

641
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: and unsuccessful. Now this is the guy I was talking

642
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: about earlier. He obtained a medical degree. He married a

643
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: human woman and they had two children, but their sex

644
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 1: life relied on him imagining her to be a horse,

645
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: so obviously their marriage didn't last. So this is an

646
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: interesting study in the sense that okay, like again, it

647
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: seems to revisit the idea of orientation versus disorder. But

648
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: then also the way that they slip in the differences

649
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: between these two guys status is like one of them

650
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 1: is a prisoner and the other one is a doctor

651
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: who's anonymously living happily and has a family, well not

652
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,919
Speaker 1: happily apparently. So we see we see both the sort

653
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: of the the example of that would have been expected

654
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: by by the earlier model models. We had a lower class,

655
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: in fact incarcerated individual with criminal tendencies to engage in this,

656
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: but then also a successful, higher class individual who had

657
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: who was very wrapped up in this way of thinking

658
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: as well. So then along comes a familiar figure. This

659
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: is a guy that we first met, at least I

660
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: did in our necrophilia episode. Apparently his thing is taking

661
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: paraphilias and really trying to categorize them. This is Dr A.

662
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: Neil Aggrawall, and in two thousand and eleven, he published

663
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: a comprehensive typology of zoophilia in the Journal of Forensic

664
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: and Legal Medicine. And yet same guy he did the

665
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine study on necrophiles that we've previously covered.

666
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 1: In fact, we have an entire gallery on stuff to

667
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: Play your mind dot com based on his previous research

668
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: of necrophiles. And I think in both cases this is

669
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 1: super useful because it it basically breaks uh, this behavior,

670
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,399
Speaker 1: this admorramalavier down to a spectrum. And in doing that

671
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 1: you can you can see the different the different levels

672
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: of sort of commitment or interaction with it, and uh

673
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: and and and and you you were presented with examples

674
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: that in some cases are more sympathetic, like they're easier

675
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 1: for you to wrap your head around and say, okay,

676
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: well I could I could see how someone could could

677
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: think like this and potentially act like this, even if

678
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: this other place on the spectrum is just very difficult

679
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: to wrap my mind around. Yeah, and we're going to

680
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: go through his taxonomy. I guess you would call it um.

681
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: I think that you out there, may you know, listen

682
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: to it and go, well, wait a minute, that doesn't

683
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: exactly fit everything that I am imagining here, and both

684
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: of us I think as we're you know, going through

685
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: it like, well, this could be refined a little bit.

686
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 1: But he he's literally the only person of the other

687
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: than the DSM to provide any kind of classification, So

688
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: it seems like there should be more work done here.

689
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's take one more break and when

690
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: we come back, we will jump into these classifications. Thank alright,

691
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: we're back, so aggrawall, as we mentioned, his claims for

692
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: his classification system on zoophilia are based on scientific and

693
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 1: clinical literature along with his own theoretical speculation. So let's

694
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: get into it like he did with necrophilia. There are

695
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: ten classifications. We're gonna take some pauses along the way

696
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 1: because some of them I think have a little bit

697
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,479
Speaker 1: more relevance to our discussion here than others. So here

698
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: we go. The first one is human animal role players.

699
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 1: These are people who have never had sex with animals,

700
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: but they are sexually aroused through wanting to have sex

701
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: with humans who pretend to be animals. Um. The obvious

702
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: indication here, and maybe some of you aren't familiar with,

703
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 1: the subculture seems to include include furry fandom. But here's

704
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: what's interesting. A study was done on furries by a

705
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: guy named David J. Rust and he found that only

706
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: two percent of furries were zoo files. Now furries, for

707
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: anyone who's not familiarly, you can look up pictures of

708
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: furries fairly safely. Uh. And these are just a lot

709
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: of times they're just people interacting with each other in

710
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: big furry fake animal costumes. You know. It's it's like

711
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: like sports mascots and sense. And they have conventions that

712
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: they have a convention here in Atlanta every year they do.

713
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: In fact, I have an interesting story about that convention. So, uh,

714
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: my previous employer, we were doing a job search and

715
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: we were flying candidates in to interview for the job search,

716
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: and we had set them up at the local Marriott

717
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: here in town for them to spend the night and

718
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: then they would come in the next morning, they do

719
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: their job presentation and then go back home. Right. It

720
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: was turned out to be the same day that the

721
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: furry Convention was in town, and the Marriott wards where

722
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: the fairy convention was held. So this candidate was like

723
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: not traumatized, but like kind of like WHOA, what are

724
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 1: going on? Like why were there all these people dressed

725
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: up like stuffed animals. Now you have a more i

726
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: think clinical explanation of what a fury is in the

727
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: notes here. Yeah, so a furry is quote someone who

728
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: has an interest in fictional anthropomorphic animal characters that have

729
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: human characteristics and personalities and or mythological that goes back

730
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 1: to what we talked about beginning, or imaginary creatures that

731
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: is as human and or superhuman capabilities. Some furries are

732
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: not sexually motivated at all, right, but but some definitely are. Interesting. Fact,

733
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: I have many times over the past several years turned

734
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: to Devian Art, the website, which is not all Devian.

735
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 1: I don't really know about the history of the website,

736
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: but there are a lot that's where artists put up

737
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,919
Speaker 1: their work, and I find it it's a great place

738
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: to get in touch with an artist, find a particular

739
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 1: image and say, hey, we'd love to use this image

740
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 1: on our episode. Yeah, there's a lot of really cool

741
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: art on there. It's I guess like the best way

742
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: to describe d V and art if you're not familiar

743
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: with it, is it's like the Facebook for artists. Yeah,

744
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 1: Like it's like a social media platform that lets you

745
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 1: share a network and you see, you see a great

746
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: deal of ariet I mean they're they're professional artists that

747
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: have Deviant Art pages, and there are you know, very

748
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: amateur pages, and then you have I have a deviant

749
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 1: Art account just so I can contact people, even though

750
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 1: I do not create visual art myself. That but its

751
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 1: been anyway. It ties into a zippilia and more importantly,

752
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: I think into fury culture, because you do see a

753
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: lot of furry uh related art on that website, and

754
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: some of it's very innocent and some of it is

755
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: is more r rated. Yeah. I have to be honest that, like,

756
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: of all of the sort of subcultural fandoms, I have

757
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: the hardest time understanding furry culture. Um I I think

758
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: most listeners of the show note like, I really try

759
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: to be open minded about most things and flexible in

760
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 1: my beliefs, but that's one that's been tough for me

761
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: to wrap my head around. And the very first time

762
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: I encountered it was actually um a story about the

763
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: work environment, and it was back when I was doing

764
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: graphic design. Another graphic designer I knew worked at this

765
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 1: company where her coworker was apparently spending all of this

766
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: time in Adobe illustrator drawing uh, anthropomorphic donkeys and like

767
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 1: horse people having sexual relations with cat people, and it

768
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 1: was super confusing for them at the time. I don't

769
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 1: even think people defined furry as like as as a

770
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: subculture at that point. This is like very early two

771
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 1: thousand's and that was my first experience with it. I

772
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: was just like, this person's artwork is amazing, Like they were,

773
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: they were very good at what they did, but I

774
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: just couldn't quite wrap my head around it. Yeah, I mean,

775
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 1: I guess the important thing to drive them home about

776
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: about furries especially is that it is it's something that

777
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: takes place between adults, adult humans, adult consenting humans, and

778
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: it may not have a sexual dimension to it at all. Uh.

779
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: And then likewise, outside of furries, there are there are

780
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: other areas of of animal role play that that have,

781
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: you know, erotic dimensions to them that don't involve furry costumes,

782
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: people pretending to be ponies, people were pretending to be dogs,

783
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: Andrew Lloyd Webber's cats. Look, let's be honest, like, there's

784
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: plenty there's plenty of people out there who like fell

785
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: in love with Mr Musta Files or whatever, right or

786
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: or I think for a lot of us. We grew

787
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: up with superhero films. We watched what Batman? What was

788
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: the second Batman? Uh, the one that had the Catwoman

789
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: with the stitches. Yes, we saw Batman returns. And how

790
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: are you supposed to feel about this? Uh? This this

791
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: sex figure, this sex icon presented to you dressed and

792
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: kind of behaving like a cat. Totally fun fact that

793
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: I just learned. Apparently when they shot that film, Michelle

794
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 1: Peiffer really put a live burden her mouth. What yeah, crazy, Yeah,

795
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: that's that's a fun aside to shake things up here. Okay,

796
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: But before we move off of animal role play, I

797
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: didn't want to drive home again too that there is

798
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: an entire realm of animal role play that is non

799
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: sexual and is as old as human culture. Like just

800
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: the idea of engaging in a ritual where you become

801
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 1: an animal or you summon animistic forces. I mean you

802
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: find that in in in cultures around the world throughout history.

803
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: So I feel like this is a great starting place

804
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: for understanding these inclinations because I feel like this is

805
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 1: this is the realm that is that is closest to uh,

806
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: you know, I guess the quote unquote normal perspective. Yeah,

807
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: and I think what you said earlier to about consent

808
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: is what's really important with this particular identification to write

809
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: is that you know whether or not, like I can

810
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: wrap my head around it. I'm perfectly fine with two

811
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: consenting adults dressing up in these costumes and doing whatever

812
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,919
Speaker 1: they want to do, because hey, that's their life, right. Yeah,

813
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot there's a lot of stuff

814
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 1: that humans do that honestly, I would rather watch it

815
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: take place with animal costumes. Like what if we can

816
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: have all of our political debates take place, that would

817
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: be Yeah, I would enjoy you know what we just

818
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: voted here yesterday in the state of Georgia. It would

819
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: have been a lot nicer if people were wearing uh,

820
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: animal outfits. Yeah, Okay, let we we spent a lot

821
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 1: of time on that first definition. Let's get to the

822
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 1: second one. You want to take that, sure, this would

823
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: be the romantic zoo files, those who who keep animals

824
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,280
Speaker 1: as pets as a way to get psycho sexually stimulated

825
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: without actually having any kind of sexual contact with them.

826
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: This is what This is an area that seems to

827
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 1: me to fall under that area of like like impulse,

828
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: but no action like someone who's who is able to

829
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: to keep impulses under control, which would otherwise shoot them

830
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: into another category here. Then the third category is zoophilic

831
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 1: fantasize ers. These are people who fantasize about having sexual

832
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: intercourse with animals but never actually do so. Okay, so

833
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 1: this is this is even more so so in a

834
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: way Number two the romantic zoo files that I get

835
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: a sense that this is this might be something that's

836
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 1: almost subconscious, you know. But but with number three, with

837
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: zoophilic fantasizers, the fantasy is more overt. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

838
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: And then number four we have hactile zoo files of

839
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 1: those who get sexual excitement from touching, stroking, or fondling

840
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 1: the animals or their genitals, but do not actually have

841
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: sexual intercourse with animals. Okay, the best thing I can

842
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: come up with this this is a scene from a

843
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: bad movie. This is the only thing that comes to

844
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 1: mind with this. Uh, both Man Hunter and Red Dragon.

845
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 1: There's the scene where the um the blind woman is

846
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: led by France's Dollar Hide to like a zoo or

847
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: something like that, and they have a tiger under anesthesia

848
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 1: and she starts stroking the tiger, and it's in this

849
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 1: weird kind of sexual way that is implied to be

850
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: sexual towards dollar hide. That's like the closest thing I

851
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 1: am coming to with any kind of sort of example this. Yeah,

852
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 1: I only vaguely remember that scene from the movie. Maybe

853
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: I just kind of you might have hacked it out honestly. Yeah. Uh,

854
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: they did it again in the Hannibal TV show too well. Actually, uh,

855
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: number five are fetishistic zoo files, those who keep various

856
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: animal parts, especially for that are used as erotic stimuli

857
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: as a crucial part of their sexual activity. Now that

858
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 1: this is essentially for fetishism, though, right, I mean, and

859
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: it's and that's not that different from weather fetishism, and

860
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 1: in in and in and and therefore is not really

861
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 1: that far I think out of the uh the understanding

862
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:34,720
Speaker 1: of most most humans. I guess um, the terminology various

863
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: animal parts makes me think though, even though he says,

864
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: especially for that, you've also got like I don't know,

865
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: feet and stuff like that in a freezer or something. Well, um,

866
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: this is another area where it comes down to like

867
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: my use of image databases, so I use Getty images

868
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: a lot for for work, finding images for our our

869
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 1: podcast episodes and other bits of content, and you run

870
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 1: across a lot of artsy shots of of of men

871
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: and women, and of course, yeah, you see people with fur,

872
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,320
Speaker 1: you see people with whether. You also see quite a

873
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: few images of people posing with antlers, especially women posing

874
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,320
Speaker 1: with antlers, so like that would count. That's that's definitely

875
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 1: part of an animal's body. Uh, you know, a detachable part.

876
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 1: But okay, all right, what's the next one? All right,

877
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: this is where we get into darker territory. For sure,

878
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: this is a sadistic be steels those who derive sexual

879
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: arousal from torturing animals. They're also this is known as

880
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,240
Speaker 1: a zoos sadism, but it does it does not involve

881
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,439
Speaker 1: sexual intercourse with the animals, right, And there's a lot

882
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 1: of distinction in the literature again with the terminology zoos

883
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: Sadism is brought up a lot by self professed zoos

884
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: sexuals or zoo files and they say, I am not that, Like,

885
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: I want to make it clear, I do not believe

886
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: myself to be hurting these animals, but there are people

887
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: and I think this is the one that like would

888
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: really solidly fall under the disorder right area, Uh, then

889
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: we've got opportunistic zoo sexuals. There was a similar one

890
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: of these for for necrophiles as well. These are the

891
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 1: people who have normal sexual encounters but would have sexual

892
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: intercourse with animals if the opportunity arose. All right, so

893
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 1: so far we haven't had anywhere the there's actual intercourse

894
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: with animals, Like it's just sort of what we're seeing

895
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: the spectrum intensify until we get there. That's the last three.

896
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: I guess. Okay, yeah, this is where with number eight,

897
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: this is where we get to regular zoo sexuals, those

898
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 1: who perfer sex with animals to sex with humans but

899
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 1: are capable of having sex with both, such as zoo files,

900
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: will engage in a wide variety of sexual activity with

901
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 1: animals and love animals on an emotional level. So I

902
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: guess you could say like that the example that I

903
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: listed earlier of the anonymous doctor who loved horses but

904
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,240
Speaker 1: also had a family, he would be a regular zoo sexual.

905
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:02,800
Speaker 1: Then this is this is super dark. I'm even uncomfortable

906
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: reading this, but we've got to do it. Homicidal beastials.

907
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: These are people who need to kill animals in order

908
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: to have sex with them. So this is like a

909
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: combination of zoophilia and necrophilia. Uh. And although they are

910
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: capable of having sex with living animals, they have an

911
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:25,959
Speaker 1: insatiable desire to have sex with dead animals. I don't

912
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 1: know what to add to that. It's just upsetting. And

913
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: then number ten again I need a reminder, right Like,

914
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: the spectrum here has to do with with with contact

915
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 1: like from just like very marginally um zoophilic to just

916
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: zoo feel like, so number ten is exclusive zoo sexuals,

917
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: those who only have sex with animals to the exclusion

918
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,760
Speaker 1: of human sexual partners and from from some of the data,

919
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: especially that survey that was conducted by Militzky, it seems

920
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: like there are quite a few people like that fall

921
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,239
Speaker 1: into that category. Now by quite a few, I mean

922
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 1: like when you interview the bad odd spectrum of zoo files,

923
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: within that there are a number of them. Okay, now

924
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 1: that we've gotten the really dark stuff out of the way.

925
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: Some studies have actually called zoophilia a risk factor for

926
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 1: future harm to humans. You would you would think that,

927
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: especially again, like based on mind Hunter and Serial Killers, right, like,

928
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 1: one of the predictors is harming animals when you're younger. Um,

929
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,240
Speaker 1: But there's a paper that refutes that and advocates actually

930
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:30,760
Speaker 1: for better diagnostic criteria. This is again Ranger and feder Off.

931
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: They discard zoophilia as a potential risk factor for future

932
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:40,359
Speaker 1: violence against humans because of how disparate the various definitions are.

933
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 1: So if we look back at at agra walls, you know,

934
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: out of the ten classifications, only one, two, two of

935
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 1: them were outright sadistic and homicidal. And then you get

936
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: into the consent issues with a couple of the other ones. Right,

937
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: So they say, the other problem here is that these

938
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 1: arguments don't use peer review evidence. Uh, and that the studies,

939
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 1: because they're difficult to conduct, lack control groups, and most

940
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: of them are correlational. So they use Kinsey's report Actually

941
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 1: that whole example of forty of males from farm communities

942
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: having sex with an animal at least once. They say,

943
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 1: this is an example of that, right, like we this

944
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 1: isn't peer reviewed, there isn't a control group, it's pretty correlational.

945
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 1: There's no evidence to support that a large proportion of

946
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: sex offenders come from farm communities, you know. Um. New

947
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 1: York Magazine ran an interview by Alexa Sulis ray well,

948
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,879
Speaker 1: a few years back with an unnamed zoo file uh

949
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 1: titled what It's Like to Data horse Um. I touched

950
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: on a lot it. It touches on a lot of

951
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 1: what we're talking about here, but I don't think it's

952
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,919
Speaker 1: necessarily content that we we want to discuss on the show.

953
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: But I'll make sure that we've link to it on

954
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 1: the landing page for this episode. Is stuff to blow

955
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: your mind for anyone who wants to essentially read a

956
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 1: self identifying zoo files account. Yeah. Again, like we're trying

957
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 1: to in the format of this episode stay away from

958
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: specific examples of beast reality. But I will say that

959
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: the article, though it presents about his sympathetic example of

960
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: of sexual zoo zoophilia as you can find, and yet

961
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 1: I still have severe problems with it. And I think

962
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 1: a lot of it comes down to what criminologists and

963
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: sociologists uh. Piers Burnet points out in the nine paper.

964
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: He makes three points. One human animal sexual relations almost

965
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 1: always involve coercion. That is a really good point. Yeah,

966
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 1: the coercion versus persuasion, right, I mean, you know, coercion

967
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,320
Speaker 1: is is kind of that's part and partial to so

968
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: much our interactions with the mesticated animals. Number two, He

969
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 1: points out such practices can often cause animals pain or

970
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 1: even death. Uh, and certainly more so in some of

971
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: these classifications that we looked at on the list, and

972
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 1: the other way around too should And then number three,

973
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:06,280
Speaker 1: and this one I think is a real sticking point

974
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 1: is animals are unable either to communicate consent to us

975
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 1: in a form that we can readily understand, or to

976
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 1: speak about their abuse. Yeah, so that number three is

977
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: a big one. We we simply exist in different mind states,

978
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 1: drastically different in some cases. And I feel like in

979
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 1: order to justify it, to justify the act, you have

980
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 1: to essentially see the animals having a human mind state

981
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 1: or convince yourself that you're thinking and acting via the

982
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 1: appropriate animal mind state. And the former is impossible. In

983
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: the later, I mean, it really seems to be an

984
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,720
Speaker 1: impossible exercise as well. I mean, you can talk about

985
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 1: putting yourself in the mind state of a of an animal,

986
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,799
Speaker 1: but I'm unconvinced you can you can do so in

987
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: a way that would would satisfy Uh. This this third

988
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 1: charge from Burnet, by the way, in uh in registering

989
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: our concerns about consent, here Uh, we're exhibiting what is

990
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 1: a tree And in the cultural treatment of zoophilia, so

991
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 1: past condemnations tended to center around what it did to

992
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 1: the status of the human being. You know, you're you're

993
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,879
Speaker 1: lowering yourself to this act. Uh, whereas we see an

994
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: increasing um uh amount of stress put on the animal itself. Uh.

995
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: You know, we're concerned with the welfare the animal, the

996
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: suffer the animal, the suffering the animal, the lack of

997
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 1: consent for the animal. Uh. So if I think it's

998
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 1: interesting to look at that, like, like how the cultural

999
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 1: attitude towards this has changed, and or at least how

1000
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: the the cultural objection to it has changed. Yeah, that

1001
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: is a huge shift in consciousness and understanding of our

1002
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: relationship with animals. I think, Wow, like maybe more than

1003
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: anything with zoophilia, just the historical trajectory that you're outlining,

1004
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 1: there is something that's kind of interesting, like what what

1005
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: is it about our present industrial state that's brought us

1006
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:00,040
Speaker 1: to the point where we do care more about the

1007
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 1: will Now it's fascinating. So let's talk briefly before we

1008
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 1: wrap up here about the future of zoophilia. This is

1009
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 1: where you know, we'll we'll discuss some of the things

1010
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 1: that were out sort of outside of the format for

1011
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 1: our discussion in this episode. So many zoo files believe

1012
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 1: in the future their sexual preference will be seen as

1013
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 1: a preference and not as a deviancy. Some individuals declare

1014
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: that their sexual attraction to animals is an orientation, and

1015
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 1: those are the ones that call themselves zoo sexuals instead

1016
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: of zoo files. Some also want to distinguish themselves, as

1017
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, from zoos sadists. They want to make

1018
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 1: it clear that they don't see their behavior as uh,

1019
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: taking any pleasure and harming animals. What about ethics here?

1020
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: There's so many questions here were purposely in this episode

1021
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: staying away from the legalities, but it's worth remembering as

1022
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: as Robert outlined, these animals can't give consent, ranger and

1023
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: federal off. In their paper, they argue that of the

1024
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 1: future research on zoophilia studies can't always use forensic or

1025
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 1: prison inmates as sampling of men that are arrested for

1026
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: crimes other than beast reality. We can't make generalized conclusions

1027
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: based on this data. Uh Now, I'm imagining like a

1028
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:19,919
Speaker 1: spinoff of mind Hunter that's like a whole another group

1029
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: of people that are trying to figure out the particularities

1030
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 1: of studying this phenomena. Now, Jesse Bearing had a really

1031
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 1: good right up on this topic in Scientific American in

1032
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 1: two thousand ten, and he points out that there are

1033
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 1: a lot of unanswered questions about zoophilia, even if we

1034
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: are to accept the idea of it being an orientation

1035
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: and not a disorder. So I will propose these here

1036
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 1: for all of us to think about. Okay, First, what

1037
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 1: makes some domestic species such as horses and dogs more

1038
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 1: common erotic targets for zoo files than others? Second? Do

1039
00:59:55,760 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 1: zoo files find particular members of their preferred species is

1040
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 1: to be more attractive than other individuals from that species?

1041
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: And how are their beauty cues such as facial symmetry? Like,

1042
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: what's going on there? What percentage of homosexual zoo files

1043
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 1: are there over heterosexual zoo files? So again, like if

1044
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:18,919
Speaker 1: you go back to the D s M, it has

1045
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: no classification based on the sex or gender of either

1046
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 1: the humans or the animals. Another question, how do zoo

1047
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 1: files differentiate between a consenting animal partner and one who isn't.

1048
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 1: Now that again obviously seems to be a line of

1049
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 1: legal boundaries, right, and then an important question too, why

1050
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: are men more likely to be zoo files than women?

1051
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 1: We know that at least from the research it's available

1052
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 1: to us, as flawed as it is, it seems like

1053
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 1: men are more likely to So what's going on there?

1054
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 1: All right? So we have a number of questions that

1055
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: still remain open, questions about just the nature zoophilia moving forward,

1056
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 1: and in you know, we also run into some of

1057
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 1: the same complications we've we've we discussed on our sex

1058
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 1: spots episode. When you consider, all right, well, we're getting

1059
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 1: increasingly into an age where robotic uh similacrums are possible.

1060
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 1: Virtual environments are more and more of an option, and

1061
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 1: you do see a fair amount of I mean, how

1062
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: many how many examples are there out right out there

1063
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 1: right now of people taking the form of an animal

1064
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 1: or uh an animal human hybrid in a virtual scenario?

1065
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: Oh totally? Like first example, I think of okay, Skyrim,

1066
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they have cat people in those yeah, And

1067
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, if I've got the option to be

1068
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:41,440
Speaker 1: like a cool cat person with claws and stuff, I'm

1069
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 1: gonna choose that person. Why do I want to role

1070
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 1: play as a human being. I am a human being, right,

1071
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 1: So yeah, obviously there's lots of avenues available. So as

1072
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 1: we as we move forward in the future, people with

1073
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: an inclination for the like a virtual or even perhaps

1074
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 1: robot assisted version and of zoophilia, how are we supposed

1075
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: to feel about that because and certainly in the case

1076
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 1: of of of pedophilia, you know, there's a lot of

1077
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 1: concern that well if you if you allow people an

1078
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 1: unreal avenue to explore these feelings, then you were embolding

1079
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 1: them towards a real life crimes um in in you know,

1080
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 1: a real life physical manifestation of their desires. So is

1081
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 1: it is there a similar case with zoophilia? So I

1082
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 1: hope that we have presented this to you in a

1083
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:35,160
Speaker 1: respectful manner. Obviously it was uncomfortable for us. I imagine

1084
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 1: the listening experience. Maybe it was a little more uncomfortable

1085
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 1: for you than some of our usual episodes. It was,

1086
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 1: it was more uncomfortable for us as well. Yeah, that's true.

1087
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, I hope that we were able to communicate

1088
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 1: this and that you know, it served the mission of

1089
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: our show and that we were bringing out different ideas

1090
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 1: and discussion of these topics. So if you're interested in

1091
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 1: more of this, let us know. Like I said, we

1092
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 1: we talked a lot of about our necrophilia episode here.

1093
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 1: You can find that on stuff to blow your Mind

1094
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 1: dot com. And also, I had previously made a gallery

1095
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: outlining AGRA walls necrophilia categorization. I don't think I'm going

1096
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 1: to do that with zoophilia here, but that you can

1097
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 1: find that unstuff to blow your Mind dot com as well. Yeah,

1098
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 1: and hey, if you want to reach out to us,

1099
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: you know, you know, most of the people reach out

1100
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: to us, they reach out is with the understanding that

1101
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 1: we may use what they say on a future listener mail, uh, etcetera.

1102
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 1: But if you have something you want to share with us,

1103
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 1: or just your feelings about the topic and you don't

1104
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,240
Speaker 1: want us to share it with people, uh, you know,

1105
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 1: feel free to do so and just mention that in

1106
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 1: the email. Though. Of course, we're we're not mental health

1107
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 1: professionals and we are not priest, so just bear that

1108
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:44,840
Speaker 1: in mind when need share content with us. And the

1109
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 1: ways that you can get in touch with us. We're

1110
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 1: all over social media. We're on Facebook, we're on Twitter,

1111
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 1: we're on tumbler, and we are on Instagram. But of course,

1112
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: if you just want to write us privately, as Robert mentioned,

1113
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: the way to do that is to type out an

1114
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: email to blow the mind. At how stuff works com

1115
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,439
Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does

1116
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:36,520
Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com