1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: On Tuesday, July seventeenth, nineteen seventy three, a local chef 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: and father of two, Ting Fong Chan, walked home from 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: his night shift in Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada at around six am. 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: His body was found beaten and stabbed death near a 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: construction site. An eyewitness saw the assailants through the darkness 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: and described the group as four or five men with 7 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: long hair. The police asked if the assailants may have 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: been indigenous. The eyewitness couldn't say either way without a 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: definitive answer, investigators began canvassing the local indigenous population, and 10 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: a man named Adam Woodhouse told them about a recent 11 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: gathering at his home attended by Clarence and Russell Woodhouse 12 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: as well as their cousin Brian Anderson. However, this gathering 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: happened on Thursday night, not on Monday into Tuesday, the 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: night of the crime. Despite the confusion over the date, 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: as well as the uncertainty over the assailants ethnicity, Clarence 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: and Russell Woodhouse, Brian Anderson, as well as their younger 17 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: friend Allan Woodhouse underwent a series of coercive and in 18 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: some cases, violent interrogations, resulting in four false confessions written 19 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: in the language in which none of them were entirely fluent. 20 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 1: The trial consisted of the presentation of these alleged confessions 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: against four matching recantations, as well as alibi witnesses and 22 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: accusations of police misconduct and brutality. Fifty years later, Brian 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: Anderson and Alan Woodhouse share their harrowing story and the 24 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: struggle to clear their names. This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome 25 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: back to wrongful Conviction. This is an episode it's going 26 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: to take everyone who listens on a journey, not just 27 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: far away because this took place in the Great White North, 28 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: but also to a place of disbelief for how a system, 29 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: in this case, the system in Canada, can do what 30 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: it does to innocent civilians. Let me introduce our guests 31 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: and then we'll explain more about the case. With us, 32 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: we have two wrongfully convicted men. First of all, Brian Anderson, 33 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to wrongful Conviction. I'm sorry you're here under the circumces, 34 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: but I'm happy you're here. Thank you and with us 35 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: as well as Alan Woodhouse, so grateful for you being 36 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: here as well. 37 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me here today. 38 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: And joining us. Is an incredible woman named bob and Sody. 39 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: Bobbin is the attorney of record for these men. She 40 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: was the legal director at Innocence Canada at the time 41 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: that she got involved with this case, and she's currently 42 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: got one of the most amazing and interesting jobs I 43 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: think in the entire world of criminal justice. She is 44 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: the intake director at the Innocence Project of New York. 45 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: So Bobin, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 46 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having us, Jason, so. 47 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: Bobn I almost feel like I want to let you 48 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: set the stage here. I mean, this case is so nuts. 49 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: It involves lies from people in positions of power, false confessions. 50 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: At least one of the men didn't even speak the 51 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: language of the confession that he was signing, that he 52 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: didn't even know was a confession, Jason. 53 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 3: For me, this was one of the first cases I 54 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 3: worked on in my role as legal director at Innocence Canada, 55 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 3: and it's one of those cases that right off the 56 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 3: batch you know that something isn't right. You know. My 57 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 3: co counsel, Jerome Kennedy has always put it best. We 58 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 3: started off knowing that this was a nineteen seventy three case. 59 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 3: It involved the Winnipeg Police Service, four young Indigenous men 60 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 3: and George Dangerfield. And as far as innocence Canada was concerned, 61 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 3: that is a recipe for wrongful conviction. 62 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: And George Dangerfield just what a name for a guy 63 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: who has the dubious distinction of being the crown prosecutor 64 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: who is responsible for the most wrongful convictions in Canadian history. 65 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: And he was unfortunately the top prosecutor in Manitoba, Canada 66 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: for thirty years. And just to paint a picture of 67 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: the guys who ended up getting caught in this nightmare, 68 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: Brian Anderson, who's with us today, had seventh grade education 69 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: and no knowledge of the criminal legal system. He grew 70 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: up on the Fairford Indian Reserve between Lake Manitoba and 71 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: Lake Saint Mark, about two hundred and thirty kilometers or 72 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: one hundred and forty three miles north of Winnipeg. The 73 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: oldest had ten children. At eighteen, he moved to Winnipeg 74 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: to work and live with his grandparents. And his first 75 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: language was not English. He barely spoke English at all. 76 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: His first language was Ojibwe Salto. And he had no 77 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: criminal record whatsoever. This is important, that's important to know, 78 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: but it turned out not to matter in this case. 79 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: So Brian, tell me about your life growing up. Did 80 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: you have a happy childhood? 81 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 3: Yes? 82 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 4: I did, I think I did. You don't know anything 83 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 4: about life at that age. 84 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: So right, you're a kid, I mean, let's face it. 85 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: As a teenager you just said yeah, exactly, figuring it 86 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: out just like anybody else. And Alan, what about for you? 87 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: You lived on the Fairport Indian Reserve as well, with 88 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: English as a second language. You had a ninth grade 89 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: education there. You were seventeen years old, but also with 90 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: no criminal record and moved to Winnipeg two months before 91 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: this awful crime happened. So Alan, what was your life 92 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: like growing up in those times? 93 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: From what you can remember, Well, my childhood is pretty rugged, 94 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: so to speak, of eight brothers and two sisters, as 95 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: I was a lot of people. Brian's younger brother I 96 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 2: have and I used to be my hindout buddy. We're 97 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 2: up at the same age. Brian were a bit of wolder, 98 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: so he hung out with you a wlder crowd. The 99 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: only reason I was in Winnipeg is because to look 100 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 2: for work. There's no work in a reserve, of course, 101 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 2: because I was over sixteen, so I just moved to 102 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 2: Winnipeg about a couple of months when I got arrested. 103 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: Right, and before you were arrested, the police picked up 104 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: Clarence Woodhouse, followed by Russell Woodhouse, then you allan Woodhouse, 105 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: and lastly Brian Anderson. And the whole thing started with 106 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: a statement from Woodhouse. First of all, that's a lot 107 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: of woodhouses. So just to keep things straight for our audience. 108 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: From what I gather, woodhouse must be a common name, Brian, 109 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: Are any of you guys related. 110 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 4: Yes, I am. They are my cousins, which is the Woodhouses. 111 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 4: Clarence and Russell. We had the same grandfather. We knew 112 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 4: each other right from the little kids. 113 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: I'm not related to any of them, actually not even 114 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: Adam Mudos So. 115 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: Clarence and Russell were related to you, Brian. But Adam 116 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: and Allen aren't related to any of you guys, right, yes, 117 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,679 Speaker 1: So the crime itself. July seventeenth, nineteen seventy three, forty 118 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: Oho men in ting Pung Chan was beaten and stabbed 119 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: to death near a downtown construction site in Manitoba, which 120 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: is Winnipeg. Mister Chan was a father of two and 121 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: a chef at a restaurant called the Beachcomber. He was 122 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: walking home from the night shift, and his body was 123 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: found at six am on the seventeenth. So then comes 124 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: this ridiculous quote unquote investigation. 125 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 3: For the first couple of days after Chan's body was found, 126 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 3: no investigation occurred. Essentially, they were doing a scan of 127 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 3: the neighborhood and they came across a witness named Daisy 128 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 3: Towel and Daisy, what's interesting about her is she didn't 129 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 3: really see much at all. What she claims to have 130 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 3: seen under the light of a lamp post in the 131 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 3: middle of the night without her glasses, and she indicated 132 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 3: that she had very poor vision was the outline of 133 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 3: four or five individuals that had long hair. And when 134 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 3: the officers put it to her whether she thought they 135 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 3: were indigenous, she said, well, yes, they could be. And 136 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 3: you know, the important point here is this was the seventies, 137 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 3: and so I'm presuming a lot of people had long hair. 138 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: I have fond memories of that era. I mean, long hair, 139 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: great music, and this witness could have easily and vaguely 140 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: stuck me into this group as well. I mean I 141 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: fit that much of the description. That's the only description 142 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: they had. So it's important to note that the police 143 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: offered this blurry cited eyewitness the suggestion that the assailants 144 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: were Indigenous, not the other way around. And Alan, I 145 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: know you eventually became a jail house lawyer. Does it 146 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: strike you as business as usual for the police in 147 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: that era with in doubt, just take an indigenous guy, right, 148 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: just start targeting Indigenous people. 149 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean I think goes wrong right away. 150 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 2: It's Native people even in the reserve. You know, something 151 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: happened outside the reserves. There's better community out there, right 152 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: there has just been Native people. There'd be police driving 153 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 2: around looking for so and sorry though probly that's the 154 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: reality of it. 155 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, the police ended up canvassing the neighborhood on the 156 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 3: lookout essentially for young Indigenous men. And that's how a 157 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 3: few days later they came upon Adam Woodhouse's house and 158 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 3: spoke to him. They also spoke to his common law 159 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 3: partner and his common law partner's daughter. And what I 160 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 3: will say is English wasn't even the first language of 161 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 3: these witnesses. So Adam was also someone who was struggling 162 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 3: to understand this context, wasn't provided an interpreter and was participating. 163 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 3: And so when they spoke to Adam on July twenty second, 164 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 3: he said, well, yes, on the night of the murderer, 165 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 3: I had a group of young Indigenous men with me, 166 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 3: including Brian Anderson, Clarence Woodhouse, and Russell Woodhouse. And he 167 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 3: distinctly didn't mention Alan. And what's interesting about the fact 168 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 3: that he said that is almost immediately following his common 169 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 3: law partner and his common law partner's daughter said yes, 170 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 3: these young men were at our house, but that actually 171 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 3: occurred Thursday and not on the night in question. And 172 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 3: the reason that's interesting is a lot of the information 173 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 3: that Adam was recalling from the evening actually related to 174 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 3: things that happened on Thursday. So, for example, he referenced 175 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 3: receiving his check he usually receives that on a Thursday night. 176 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 3: He referenced using that check in order to buy beer 177 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 3: again as a result of what happened on Thursday night. 178 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 3: But essentially, the police, ignoring what you know, his common 179 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 3: law partner and her daughter said, decided to venture out. 180 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 3: And this is when this web began to weave, and 181 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 3: within twenty four hours they managed to get you alleged 182 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 3: confessions from Clarence Woodhouse, Russell Woodhouse, Allan Woodhouse and Brian Anderson. 183 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: Wow. So no, I mean they didn't even pretend to 184 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: do a real investigation, just the assumption by the police 185 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: that the assailants were indigenous. And Adam Woodhouse told them 186 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: about gathering at his home with Clarence, Russell and Brian, 187 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 1: nothing about a murder or any conspiracy to commit murder 188 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: or any criminal activity at all. And it even turned 189 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: out to be the wrong night entirely Monday into Tuesday 190 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: was when it happened. This was Thursday, but that didn't matter. 191 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: And now the interrogations and false confessions began in a 192 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: language you guys didn't even. 193 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 3: I think a really important part of this is understanding 194 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 3: the sequence of the confessions, just to understand how they 195 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: utilized classic read technique despite the fact that everything pointed 196 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 3: against them. So yes, all four confessions, and this is important, 197 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 3: all four of the confessions that these boys are alleged 198 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 3: to have made start off with the exact same sentence. 199 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 3: All four of them say on Monday night, I was 200 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 3: and when I read that, I knew that something was amiss. 201 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 3: We have four men who are alleged to have written 202 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: these confessions in separate rooms, separate circumstances, varying understanding of English, 203 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 3: and yet all of their statements start the exact same way. 204 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 3: And so that's when I delved into the actual sequence, 205 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 3: like how did they obtain them? And what I saw 206 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 3: was classic retechnique. You know. They started off with Clarence. 207 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 3: They took him to the scene, brought him back to 208 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 3: the station, They asked him to mark up the body 209 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 3: and where it was that he had attacked, you know, 210 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 3: tingfong Chen, immediately assuming that he was the person responsible. Ultimately, 211 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 3: this allegedly led to his confession. And what's interesting about 212 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 3: the confession is it's a partial confession and the only 213 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 3: person that's mentioned in it is Russell. Then they go 214 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 3: to Russell and they go look at this confession that 215 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 3: Clarence gave you. And what's interesting about that is that 216 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 3: Russell didn't even have enough of an understanding of the 217 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 3: English language to be able to read the confession that 218 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 3: Clarence apparently made. So they brought Clarence into the room 219 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 3: with Russell to read to his brother this confession he's 220 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: alleged to have made. And so Russell apparently makes a 221 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 3: confession same thing on Monday night I was. And so 222 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 3: not only does he now mention Clarence himself, but he 223 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 3: also references Alan, and so that is how Alan is 224 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 3: brought into the story, and so then Alan is arrested. 225 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 3: He is also shown the confession that now Clarence has 226 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 3: made and subsequently Russell have made. And what's interesting about 227 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 3: Alan is he was subjected to physical abuse because he 228 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 3: refused to make this confession. 229 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: That night, in that particular, when I got picked up, 230 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: you know, there was a knock on the door, and 231 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: there's two people standing there in suits. I guess you 232 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: call them plaines calls. 233 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 4: Now. 234 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 2: He asked me what my name was, So I told 235 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: him who I was. So I said, sorry, grand them 236 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: my wrist. You're the one we're looking for it. So 237 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 2: I said, way wait, I said, what's going on? I 238 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: want to talk to you. I went downstairs with and 239 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 2: Mark carra On downstairs and they took me to the 240 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 2: police stas we're not were the police. I asked him 241 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 2: what news this about it? He said murder? I said murder. 242 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: I said, maybe they had found a dead body and 243 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: they wanted me to go and recognize some of the 244 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 2: body or see you know, what I mean when we got 245 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: to the police station and they said, Okay, where were 246 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 2: you on Tuesday night? So I tell at home? Who 247 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 2: else was there? There's nobody there. It's just me, my 248 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 2: mother and I lived there. She just had that little apartment, 249 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 2: and my mother, well, she went out a lot, she 250 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 2: drank a lot. But anyway, so I told him I 251 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 2: was at home and they said, oh, there's nobody there, said, 252 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: I know, you weren't there. You were at Adam's Wood Streets. 253 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 2: I said, no, I wasn't there. I was there on Thursday. 254 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. 255 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 2: They went back and forth for a while and they 256 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: got angrier and angrier, and they started getting physical. I 257 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: mean they were really rough. I mean they were they're 258 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: hitting me. I mean, I was all bloody. So after 259 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: four hours they rode up the statement, told me to 260 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: sign it and then you can go, I said, So 261 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: I signed it, I said, after they signed, their hand 262 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: covered me ultimately. 263 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 3: Again. Interesting, his confession starts off with on Monday night, 264 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 3: I was and the variation there was. Now this confession 265 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 3: includes Clarence, it includes Russell, it includes Alan, and there 266 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 3: is the first reference to Brian Anderson. And so then 267 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 3: they go to Brian and they speak to him, and 268 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 3: they take Brian to the scene. They show him alleged 269 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: weapons that were utilized, you know, and they show him 270 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 3: the confessions of the other three boys. Like on Monday night, 271 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 3: I was. 272 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 4: On the twenty third, I got picked up for murder. 273 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 4: Like I wasn't even a suspect. I was charged already. 274 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 4: They got me to sign a piece of paper, which 275 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 4: I did, and I didn't know that was the confession 276 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 4: that supposedly I had made. 277 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: The idea that you were signing a piece of paper 278 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: in a language you didn't speak with nobody there to 279 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: guide you or help you or advise you. I read 280 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: somewhere that you had thought that it might have been 281 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: just something related to your possessions that they were keeping 282 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: in storage for you while they arrested you. Is that accurate. 283 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 4: Yes. What they do is they make you empty your 284 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 4: pockets and that they put stuff aside and you have 285 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 4: to sign for them. And that's what I thought it was. 286 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 4: That's how crooked they were, you know, they didn't care 287 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 4: just because they had these witnesses. They were calling them. 288 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 4: That's where they based all their stuff from. 289 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 3: And so at the end of the day, as a 290 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 3: result of this sort of linear sequential experience. Now all 291 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 3: four boys are alleged to have participated. The statements that 292 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 3: start very much the same build on each other. So 293 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: first you have just Clarence, then you have Clarence and Russell, 294 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 3: then you have Clarence Russell and Alan, and finally the 295 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 3: final statement Clarence, Russell, Alan and Brian have participated. And 296 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 3: so essentially you have each of the young men pointing 297 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 3: the finger at each other and weaving this web for 298 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 3: the police. 299 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: Actually feels a little bit like a Canadian version of 300 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: New York City's own horror show known as The Central 301 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: Park five, currently known as Exonerated five because they use 302 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: some of the same techniques differently, but you know, using 303 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: everybody against each other and the physical abuse. And it's 304 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: very important for our audience to know that in twenty 305 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: nine percent of the DNA exonerations, the person who was 306 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: proven with absolute certainty scientific certainty to be innocent confessed 307 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: to the crime they didn't commit. Just like in this case, Bobin. 308 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 1: What about physical or forensic evidence? Did they collect any, 309 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: did they examine it? Was there any? Did they even 310 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: make a show out of trying to solve this case? 311 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,239 Speaker 3: So that is where this case gets interesting, Jason, They 312 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 3: actually did collect a lot of forensic evidence. The Winnipeg 313 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 3: Police Service collected fiber analysis here microscopy, So there was 314 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 3: three hairs that were grasped in Ting Fong Chan's hands. 315 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 3: They had fingerprints, they collected clothing, they undertook presumptive blood tests, 316 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 3: there was a series of knives that were collected, and 317 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 3: essentially they used a number of different you know, and 318 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 3: I used air coute sciences, sciences that have since been 319 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 3: dubbed junk science to these things. But what's amazing about 320 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,239 Speaker 3: this case is Brian Anderson, Alan Woodhouse and the other 321 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 3: two co accused were excluded from all of them. So 322 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 3: they engaged in this efforts to try and get something 323 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 3: beyond the confession undertaking these sciences again air quotes that 324 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 3: have contributed to a number of wrongful convictions, but in 325 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 3: this instance, remarkably, these four men were excluded. 326 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: So even when they were using these super subjective, absolute 327 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: junk sciences that are very useful for when you want 328 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: to conjure up corroborating evidence for a false confession or 329 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: misidentification or a jail house snitch testimony, even when they 330 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: tried to cheat they failed, where so many other unscrupulous 331 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: prosecutors and law enforcement officials have succeeded time and time again. 332 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: So I mean, I'm sure that there are a number 333 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 1: of people in the audience scratching their heads as I'm 334 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: doing right now and saying, wait, I thought she said 335 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: they were excluded. 336 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 3: That's the weirdest thing about this case. So in every 337 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 3: other case I've ever worked on, there's something more. You know, 338 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 3: there might be hair mark cross that was performed, there 339 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 3: may be fiber analysis that matches. There might be you know, 340 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 3: a smudge, fingerprint, or some kind of presumpted blood. But this, 341 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 3: this is that case that the only thing that ties 342 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 3: these individuals to the case are these confessions they're alleged 343 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 3: to have made. All of the air quotes. Science that 344 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 3: they tried to utilize excluded them. 345 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: But they marched right ahead as if it included them, right, exactly, 346 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: It just keeps piling up, right, So we have the 347 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: blind witness, right, we have the false confessions that might 348 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: as well have been written in Chinese or Greek Portuguese 349 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: because you didn't know what the hell you were signing, 350 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: And the physical and forensic evidence collected does match. So 351 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: it's already the pile of sculpatory evidence and factors is 352 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: growing and growing. But also you had an alibi. It 353 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: wasn't like you were by yourself that night, right. 354 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 4: That's right now, staying at my grandfather at the time, 355 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 4: That's where I was, and Clarence and Russell that was 356 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 4: their residence too. 357 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 2: Yes, I was at home and my mother can confirm 358 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 2: that the aster where I was on the guy got killed. 359 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 2: She said I was at home when she got home, 360 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: but then she said she was drunk. There's the bars 361 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: closed about twelve o'clock. Then she walked from the main 362 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 2: street to Isabel Street, the a'ster about fifteen minute to 363 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 2: twenty minute walk, So that would be about two o'clock 364 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: when I was at home, because she said I was 365 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: complaining to her about her becoming home late, because you know, 366 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 2: I had to get up in the morning. Hear this, 367 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 2: So I don't I be walking at two o'clock in 368 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 2: the morning and waking me up, And that's how she remembered. 369 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: So you guys both underwent preliminary hearings. Alan you were 370 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 1: discharged November nineteen seventy three after the preliminary hearing based 371 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: on the finding that the statement to police was involuntary 372 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 1: and thereby inadmissible, and you were discharged, but you were 373 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: mentioned in the other statements, and then they were still 374 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: able to put you on trial, and they had you 375 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: bumped up from juvenile court into adult court. It just 376 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: keeps getting worse to stand trial along with Brian and 377 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: your other two co defendants. 378 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 2: Right, that's right. 379 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: So now we get to the trial, and you got 380 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: George Dangerfield. We talked about the notorious prosecutor. This trial 381 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: took place February eighteenth through March fifth. Now, obviously you've 382 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: studied it in detail, Bob, and tell us about this trial. 383 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 3: The only thing here is the confessions the trial. Jidge 384 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 3: actually says that, and I'm going to read you a 385 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 3: quote from his instructions to the jury. The whole case 386 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 3: basically against these accused, each of them rests on his 387 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 3: own statement, and that sort of summarizes the trial. The 388 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 3: entire length of the trial focused on these statements, and 389 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 3: it was essentially a competition on who was telling the truth. 390 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 3: You know, you had these supposedly upstanding officers that were 391 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 3: presenting this case vouching for the fact that these individuals 392 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 3: had confessed to them. And on the opposite side you 393 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 3: had four young indigenous men who were sort of villified. 394 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 3: They didn't speak English, they weren't provided with interpreters, and 395 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 3: essentially it was their word against the police, the. 396 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: Word of the same police officers who had beaten Allen, 397 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: who was a child. They literally beat him to extract 398 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: the statement that was then, of course, later presented against 399 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: him at trial. 400 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well that's the only thing. That's the only 401 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: thing they had. I just said, oh yeah, you came 402 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 2: out and you confessed it. Of course that's what the 403 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 2: police said. They didn't say time with the beating, they 404 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,479 Speaker 2: unied it. Of course, even the statement wasn't true. For instance, 405 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 2: the statement said that I had started this person in 406 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 2: the stomach a couple of times, but there was no 407 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 2: stab wounds in the stomach at all. 408 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: It's a classic hallmark of a false confession when the 409 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: details of the statement don't match the physical evidence. And 410 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: there were also the alibi witnesses. But in reading about 411 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: the trial, it really made me sort of throw want 412 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: to throw up in my mouth to read that Brian's 413 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: grandfather was never even called to testify to his alibi. 414 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: It's insane. But then this part I don't know struck 415 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: me in a different sort of sickening type of way, 416 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: which is that Alan, your mother was called the trial, 417 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: which was appropriate, but from what I understand, the jury 418 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: didn't hear her full explanation because the judge freaking interrupted 419 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: her during a pivotal moment of questioning and then sent 420 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: her home without allowing her to answer the question like 421 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: what planet are we on? This is madness? 422 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, well today, I don't know why the judge was 423 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 2: sort of hostile toward her. Yeah, because you don't understand 424 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: what's going on here, go sit down. Yeah, let's say 425 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 2: it and sat down. It seems to me he just 426 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 2: didn't want to hear her say anything. I don't know why. 427 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: Maybe he didn't want to hear the truth. He didn't 428 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 2: want to hear any evidence contrary to what they believed. 429 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: I mean, as a parent, I think anyone who's listening, 430 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: who is a parent, father, mother, whatever, would feel a 431 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: sense of outrage that this is the mother with her 432 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: son's life at stake, and the judge is basically treating 433 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: her as if her life her son's life. No, none 434 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: of it. 435 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 3: Matters, honestly, Jason. It was the moment that I read 436 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 3: the sentencing decision. I want to read this passage to you. 437 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 3: So these are the comments of the trial judge. He says, 438 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 3: this is not a jungle where we live. It is 439 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 3: not a wild's land. We are not subduing this land 440 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 3: from anybody. We are not still taking it from wild 441 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 3: people in this community. We want to be able to 442 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 3: come and go freely, whether the lights are on in 443 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 3: the streets or whether they are out, whether the police 444 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 3: are patrolling the roads or whether they aren't. And you know, Jason, 445 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 3: extemporaneous comments about jungles and wildness not only add nothing 446 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 3: useful to the trial process, but they conjure up stereotypes 447 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 3: that can only do unfair damage to indigenous person Standing trial. 448 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: March fifth, nineteen seventy four, Brian, Allen and Clarence were 449 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: found guilty of murder and sentence to life in prison, 450 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: and Russell was found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced to 451 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: ten years. So, Brian and Alan, what was that like 452 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: when that fury came in and sends you to prison 453 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: for the rest of your life. 454 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 2: Oh, I was shock coming. I was just speitchless. It's 455 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 2: sort of I don't get it. I never thought of 456 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 2: killing anyone in my life. Ever, I have to just. 457 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 4: Take what was coming to me because like a I 458 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 4: guess you like a sheep and of slaughter house or whatever, 459 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 4: like you know, do whatever they want. 460 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: You have, No, you have nothing. 461 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 4: Once the door loss behind you, you're in that little 462 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 4: cell by yourself, and then that's all you do, you think. 463 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 4: I didn't know how to take it to begin with 464 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 4: a thing, and I thought, wows just do away with myself, 465 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 4: kill myself. 466 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: And then. 467 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 4: After thinking about that, I thought, hey, I can't be 468 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 4: doing this. I'll be helping those buggers. That's what they 469 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 4: trying to do to me, you try to kill me. 470 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 4: Then I promised myself that I would keep going. Ye, 471 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 4: and I'm still here. 472 00:26:59,119 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 473 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 2: I think it helped me a lot of owned out 474 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 2: totally alone because there was Brian, there's Clarence and Russell, 475 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 2: so yeah, I had some some kind of support. Yeah. 476 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 2: When I got to prison, I never realized how many 477 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 2: Native people they were there. There's just full of Native 478 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: people there. There was hardly any white people there at all. 479 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 2: It seems I seemed like a big giant reserve. And 480 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: I joined the organization. Now in the Native Brotherhood, I 481 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 2: was quite active in prison politics. I was present for 482 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: the Brotherhood a few times. And not only that, I 483 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 2: became a jelouse lawyers of all things. Yes, so that 484 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 2: kept me occupied. I got pretty good in learning the system. 485 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: There was a time there I thought, well, now, I 486 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: don't know where this idea came from. I thought, you 487 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 2: can serve your time, or you can let the Times review. 488 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 2: I think, yeah. I started adopted that philosophy. 489 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 4: Pick up books or what I would try and distract 490 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 4: your mind. That kind of kept me sane, Like you know, 491 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 4: I didn't. I didn't go insane at all. I went 492 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 4: to school as well, try and learn something, like you know, 493 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 4: try and educate myself, to try and learn English. At 494 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 4: least I could try and speak for myself because my 495 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 4: lawyer wouldn't speak for me. 496 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 2: I finished my high school in prison. I took some 497 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 2: courses here, like auto mechanics I took. I taught electrician 498 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 2: and I work as electrician every time I'm out. I 499 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: thought schooling would be the best way to get out 500 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 2: as soon as possible as when Firstunately, they didn't turn 501 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 2: that away. Because I spent seventeen years in prison before 502 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 2: I got a full parole. 503 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: That's right, Alan, Despite both of you spending your time 504 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: so well behind the walls, as you both just described, 505 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: you were not granted parole until nineteen ninety, while Brian 506 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: was initially denied parl nineteen eighty because the par board 507 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: concluded that Brian had a quote unquote obsession to prove 508 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: his innocence. I mean, of course, but they said that 509 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: that could potentially result in his violating release conditions. Like what, okay, 510 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:09,959 Speaker 1: what are we through the looking glass here? I mean, 511 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: you can't win in that situation. An innocent man not 512 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: deserving a parole. It's just totally asked backwards. But there 513 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: was a man that I read about who was a 514 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: fierce advocate for you, Brian. And that guy's name was 515 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: Dick Skelding. 516 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 4: He was a school teacher. And then I asked him 517 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 4: to help me write a letter to my lawyer. He 518 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,719 Speaker 4: helped me out and then he says, oh, I'll send 519 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 4: him a letter to He said after that the lawyer, 520 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 4: I had tried to get him fired because he's trying 521 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 4: to help me. And then he was pissed off at that. 522 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 4: He said there's something going on here. He said, something wrong. 523 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 4: You're like a lawyer like that, like he's supposed to 524 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 4: be helping and he's against you. And then he says, 525 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 4: would you take a light at that? So I said okay, 526 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 4: and then I passed it, of course, and then after 527 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 4: that he contact the CTV News and then they came 528 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 4: and interviewed me over there. 529 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, he died in nineteen eighty two, but you carried on, 530 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, the CTV did its story on 531 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: your case, Brian called the Anderson Confession, and you know, 532 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: sometimes pressure breaks pipes. So you were ultimately released on 533 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: full parole in nineteen eighty three, ten years after your arrest. 534 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: But then Alan, you spent seventeen years in prison before 535 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: being granted parole in May twenty third, nineteen ninety. 536 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 2: Well, they wanted me to admit that kill somebody, and 537 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 2: I just couldn't bring miss out to tell you I 538 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: got I didn't kill anybody. Finally, I think this sort 539 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 2: of said they weren't going to get me to say 540 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 2: that I kill somebody. I think one of the members said, 541 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 2: you know, he said, we can't base our decision based 542 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: on what you say. We have to base this isn't 543 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,479 Speaker 2: based on the fact that you were convicted. Even if 544 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,959 Speaker 2: you are innocent. They granted me a parole I think 545 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 2: if I was in March, and then I said, okay, 546 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 2: you can get it on mid twenty three, nineteen ninety. 547 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 2: So I went to the halfway house, you know, which 548 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 2: is just another prison. So I stayed there another six months. 549 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 2: So sir, it's a gradual release. You know, you don't 550 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 2: just walk over there. Yeah, there's some parole officers RAVI 551 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 2: attitude and just trying to find excuses to send you 552 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 2: back to prison. The current one is actually pretty good 553 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 2: right now, So it's actually very good compared to the elevance. Oh, 554 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 2: I've had really bad parole officers. I've been suspended a 555 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: few times. I has been got out on habeas corpus 556 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 2: three times. My parole officers revoked my parole. I had 557 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 2: to take him to court to reinstad my parole took 558 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 2: him three times and they finally I told him that 559 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: the next time I caught him on hebeis corpus, I 560 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: will be filing civil suit. So so far there left 561 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: me alone. But like today, I could be suspended right now. 562 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 2: You know, I can't be in chill tomorrow. That's just 563 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 2: the way it is. 564 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: Brian. For you for was revolt to suspend it and 565 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: regranted numerous time. We've talked about this before, you and 566 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: I about sort of the prison outside of the prison, right. 567 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I had such a racist parole officer. Because 568 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 4: of him, I went back and forth. He told me 569 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 4: he was an ex cop. He was really after me 570 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 4: like any little thing. Even when he used to come 571 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 4: visit me. He put his phone or whatever tape recorder aside. 572 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 4: He said, well, I'm going to turn this off first 573 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 4: so it won't get interrupted, and he's recording me all 574 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 4: this time. You know I could see that. And then 575 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 4: he had said, well, like you know, what we say 576 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 4: and what the courts say are two different things. Don't 577 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 4: bet on it. He told me, like, you know, like 578 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 4: you're going to go back, like he made a decision 579 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 4: already that was going to get revoked, revoked my parole. 580 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 4: I was glad to get rid of him. Finally they 581 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 4: gave me another one, which is a woman after that, 582 00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 4: and then she was nice to me and I never 583 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 4: then went back after that. I'm still with it today. 584 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 4: Like you know, I have I have like a chain, 585 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 4: like a lease. I can only go so far, like 586 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 4: as radius, I can't go past eighty kilometers from where 587 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 4: I'm at, I can get thrown back in jail for that, 588 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 4: for being out of the boundary. 589 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all these years later. It's so crazy that 590 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: in Canada they do it much the same way we 591 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: do here, which is try to make their lives as 592 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: difficult as possible after their freed, whether they're innocent or guilty. 593 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: Of course, if you're declared actually innocent, then they don't 594 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: put you on parole here. But I always say we 595 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: should build ramps for people coming out of prison so 596 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: they can get back on their feet, join their community, 597 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: get back with their family, go to school, become contributing 598 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: members of society. Instead, we put up roadblocks every place 599 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: we can and put ice in the road and nail 600 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: so you get tripped up and you go right back 601 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: to prison. There's forty four hundred different restrictions in America 602 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: on parole and probation, over forty four hundred, some of 603 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: them make it virtually impossible for somebody to remain free. 604 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: And sad to hear that it's the same way in Canada. 605 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 4: Exactly, like you know, like what I didn't like about 606 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 4: this too, is that like somebody come from another part 607 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 4: of the world, like you're on the other side of 608 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 4: the world, for example, and come and tell me how 609 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 4: to live my life in my own country. You know 610 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 4: that pisces me off try to control my life, still 611 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,320 Speaker 4: do I don't like that. 612 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 2: I should be free. 613 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: So they have yet to declare you both actually in 614 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: list in all these decades later, while they continue to 615 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: keep their hooks into you, and as time has passed, 616 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: the fight to clear your names has remained constant, but 617 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: the process is maddeningly slow. In fact, the presence of 618 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: Bovin with us today starts a while back with a 619 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: legend in the innocence community who has since then passed. 620 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 4: Hurricane Carter's name came up. I was told to contact 621 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 4: Hurricane Carter. They were called Haidwick. Now they're called Innocence Canada. 622 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,879 Speaker 4: I didn't know anything about Innocence Canada. There was four 623 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 4: cases that came up, people that were convicted from George Landerfield. 624 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 4: Their cases were looked after they've been dealt with already, 625 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 4: and I believe my case was ahead of them, but 626 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 4: I have been looked at it all. 627 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: So Bobin, when did you and Jerome Kennedy get involved 628 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: and take us right up to the present to where 629 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: the case is at right now. 630 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 3: Jerome and I became involved in twenty seventeen, and that 631 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 3: was when Innocence Canada was going under a bit of 632 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 3: a shift. So what Jerome Kennedy did was review every 633 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 3: single file that was on our roster and evaluate it. 634 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 3: I think it was days into me starting my role 635 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 3: as legal director, we started working on this case and 636 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 3: so almost instantly, over the course of the next maybe year, 637 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 3: year and a half, we were pouring over every document, 638 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 3: calling every institution, trying to put together this file and 639 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 3: figure out a way in because I think the struggle 640 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 3: in this case was they were so obviously innocent. The 641 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 3: only thing here was the confession, and we just couldn't 642 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 3: figure out why it was they were convicted. And so 643 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 3: we submitted Brian's case at the beginning of twenty nineteen 644 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 3: to an organization known as the CCRG, So that's the 645 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 3: Criminal Convictions Review Group and essentially that is the sub 646 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 3: department of our Ministry of Justice. And in Canada, what 647 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 3: this processes involves is us filing what is known as 648 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 3: a Section ninety six point one application, and the Ministry 649 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 3: on their website provides you about three pages in order 650 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 3: to be able to make a person's claim of innocence. 651 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 3: But ultimately Brian and Allen's combined applications ended up being 652 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 3: three hundred pages of us noting everything we had found 653 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,399 Speaker 3: and was accompanied by I think almost five or six 654 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 3: banker's boxes of evidence we had collected over the years 655 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 3: what had initially only started off with the four confessions. 656 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 3: So presently Brian's was filed in twenty nineteen. The CCRG 657 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 3: actually approached us and asked us to file Allen's in 658 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 3: twenty twenty, and so we filed his application in February, 659 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 3: sort of as a supplement to the two. And now 660 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 3: it's still before the CCRG being considered and it's a 661 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 3: long process. We've been waiting for a while and we're 662 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 3: really hoping that the Minister makes a decision soon. 663 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. It really just pisses me off how easy it 664 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: is to throw a few good men's lives away, but 665 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 1: then to of course to undo that dirty work is it? 666 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: You know? Well, now we know it's a fifty year 667 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: uphill struggle with banker's boxes of material that takes years 668 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: to a mass, and of course many more years to 669 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: get in front of anybody who's in a position to 670 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: do anything about it. 671 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 3: That's the thing about wrongful convictions. It is so easy 672 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 3: to convict someone. And here we are, fifty years later, 673 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 3: still trying to undo it. You know, I started on 674 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 3: it twenty seventeen. It is now twenty twenty two, just 675 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 3: to get an idea of how long this process takes. 676 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 3: And I am just on the tail end of Alan 677 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 3: and Brian's efforts to sort of undo what happened to them. 678 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,240 Speaker 1: And if any of our listeners want to support your efforts, 679 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: is there a website they can go to. 680 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 3: So the ask for us is supporting organizations like an 681 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,760 Speaker 3: since Canada, we have so little resources, and to Brian's point, 682 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 3: it takes us years to even get to the point 683 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 3: that we have enough resources to be able to review 684 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 3: and evaluate a case. And in the absence of us 685 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 3: doing so, there is no one else. There is no 686 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,240 Speaker 3: one else that is doing this work. And so people 687 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 3: like Brian are forced to wait in the queue until 688 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 3: we have enough resources ability to reach that file. And 689 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 3: this is a human being that is waiting for us, 690 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 3: that is waiting for us to review their case. And 691 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 3: so all i'd ask, you know, the pitch to the 692 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 3: audience would be to support your local wrongful conviction organization. 693 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 3: Make sure that you're able to contribute to them in 694 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 3: that way. And when there are policy matters that are 695 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 3: coming up or opportunities to support, please do, please. 696 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: Do, amen, So keep your ear to the ground. People 697 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: support your local innocence organizations as well as larger ones 698 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: like Innocence Canada. I mean the money a long way 699 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: with Innocence Canada, believe me, and we'll have their site 700 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: linked in the bio. So now we come, of course 701 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: to my favorite part of the show, Closing Arguments is 702 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 1: the section of the show where first of all, I 703 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 1: thank you all of you for being here and sharing 704 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: this unreal story. I'm gonna turn my microphone off, kick 705 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 1: back in my chair with my headphones on, if I 706 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,839 Speaker 1: close my eyes and just zone in on whatever else 707 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: you want to share, Bob, and please start us off, 708 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 1: and then I'll leave it up to you to hand 709 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 1: the mic off to whoever you want to have go next, 710 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: and then the other guy will take us off into 711 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: the sunset. 712 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 3: The only thing I will say is, for almost fifty years, 713 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 3: Brian and Allen have maintained their innocence. They have spent 714 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 3: the majority of their life marked as murderers, and yet 715 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,319 Speaker 3: every day both of them wake up continue to fight 716 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 3: to clear their name. And you know, as Jason mentioned 717 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 3: in one of the parole reports that I read, they 718 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 3: talk about Brian's session with his innocence, and in both 719 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 3: Brian and Allen's case, their obsession with proving their innocence 720 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 3: has never wavered. Their story is one of enduring strength, determination, 721 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 3: and perseverance. 722 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 4: Yes, well, I got to keep crying. I can't give up. 723 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 4: I need but I need help. I there's nothing I 724 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 4: can do by myself. Whoever's out there we can help. Well, 725 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 4: even better, that's what I need. 726 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you very much for having me here. There 727 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,800 Speaker 2: was a great privilege to be here. I would like 728 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 2: the audience and all that. You know, we we always 729 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 2: think about justice, but justice has to come soon. Can't 730 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 2: just say it happened and nothing nothing happens. So he 731 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 2: has to make a decision. This review has to come 732 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 2: to an end at some point. I just wish they'd 733 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 2: make a decision quickly because just think also stressful the 734 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 2: fact that this is hanging over you. Well, when am 735 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 2: I getting out? You know why am I getting out? Day? 736 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 2: In and day out. You know it, just where's the 737 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 2: oat psychologically dreaming? Please be aware of that there's a 738 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 2: lot of injustice in this world, and it's people, and 739 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 2: we always think it will never happen to me, but 740 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 2: it does happen. I certainly never told you what happened 741 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 2: to me. 742 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 743 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis, 744 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production 745 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. 746 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 747 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,960 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 748 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 749 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 750 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason flam Ravel. Conviction is 751 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with 752 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one