WEBVTT - Orcs in the Deep 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:09.799 But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor, 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:13.040 little is known of a certainty, for who of the 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.600 living has descended into the pits of autumno or has 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:20.479 explored the darkness of the councils of Melkor. Yet this 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.080 is held true by the wise of Eressia, that all 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.720 those of the KINDI who came into the hands of 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:31.400 Melkor errotumno was broken, were put there in prison, and 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:35.639 by slow arts of cruelty, were corrupted and enslaved. And 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.840 thus did Melkor breathe the hideous race of the Orcs 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:42.400 in envy and mockery of the elves of whom they 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:46.200 were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.720 and multiplied after the manner of the children of Iluvatar, 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:52.600 And naught that had life of its own, nor the 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:56.400 semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:00.480 in the Aino Lundeli before the beginning, So say the wise, 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:03.960 and deep in their dark hearts, the Orcs loathed the 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.680 master whom they served, in fear the maker only of 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:15.680 their misery. Welcome to stuff to blow your mind. The 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:24.920 production of my heart radio hey welcome to stuff to 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:27.440 blow your mind. My name is Robert Land, and I'm 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:29.880 Joe McCormick. And man, I had to read that opening 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:31.959 part quite a few times. That, of course, is from 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:35.399 The Sill Marillion by j. R. R. Tolkien. Yeah, and 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.760 of course we're talking about Tolkien because today's publication date 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:43.560 is September, which also happens to be the credited birth 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:47.320 date of both Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, the Hobbits central 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.680 to J. R. Tolkien saga of Middle Earth. Uh. Thus 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.400 this has become known as Hobbit Day, which falls during 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.560 Tolkien Week, at least as proposed by the American Tolkien 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:00.760 Society in Night. So this TRD and is roughly a 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.880 month older than I am. That's funny. So it's a 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:07.200 week long festival then, yeah, yeah, apparently a week long 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:10.959 celebration of Middle Earth and all things token. I was 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:14.000 not aware of it until just like last month and 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.360 I realized the publication day lined up perfectly, and I'm like, oh, well, 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:20.560 we've already done an episode on the One Ring. We 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.760 did another one on Hobbits and how their their biology 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:30.000 works and how they relate to multiple meals per day 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:32.160 and to Sunlight, and so I thought, well, we got 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:33.959 to come with something else that we can talk about 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:37.960 on Hobbit Day itself. So you wanted to talk about orcs. 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:40.360 I guess you've had Token on the brain all year, right, 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:42.480 Are you still? Are you still reading it with the family? 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.800 No way, I haven't been reading it. We've been meaning 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:48.680 to come back around to Fellowship of the Rings, but 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.720 instead we just we just got into Star Wars this year, 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:54.280 so that's where we are. But I couldn't. I couldn't 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.920 let the stars seemed to align on this particular episode. 0:02:57.919 --> 0:02:59.800 So I thought, well, we've got to we gotta do something. 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.760 Started looking around, I thought, well, maybe it's orcs. Orcs 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.160 are such a central part of the work and something 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:10.919 that has been highly influential on fantasy in general, like 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:15.560 generally speaking, fantasy games, fantasy books, fantasy movies. They're just 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:19.360 lousy with orcs, you know. I was trying to think 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.760 when I first started, when I first became aware of orcs, 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.480 and I think before I ever read any Tolkien, I 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:31.040 played the warcraft games which which have orcs in them, 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:34.960 which are essentially the palace guards at Java's Palace from 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:39.200 Return of the Jedi. Yeah, they're green, and they've got tusks, 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.760 and they've got kind of like a bulldog faces. Yeah, 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:44.400 they have that. They look a lot like those Gamorian 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:48.520 guards from from Jedi Um. They also of course, of course, 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.400 um that whole gaming system I think has its roots 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:56.960 too and being inspired by the Warhammer games as well, 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.360 which yeah, which I'll touch base on that in a 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.280 little bit, because think they're very important to the history 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:06.640 of how we interpret orcs. Um. I I think I've 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:10.160 I have always pictured the Orcs of Middle Earth in 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:14.280 less detail, like, you know, more abstract, brutish creatures in 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:16.599 the you know, in the rough semblance of human beings. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.560 And part of that might be that I at a 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:21.599 very early age I saw at least parts of the 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:27.200 original UH animated version where all the animation is pretty 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:30.120 much like that. It's kind of like abstract shapes and 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.560 less detail, and the Orcs and other evil things are 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.560 often shown in kind of a silhouette. This is the 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.520 ralph back she one with the does have rhotoscoping in it. 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.360 Rotoscoping animation. I believe that's the technique they used. Yeah, 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:47.360 it was. It's it's interesting, it's a little bit different 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.720 from the Rank and bass uh animation that you saw 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:53.440 on The Hobbit and then saw on the Return of 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:58.440 the King, which you know basically finished what this film didn't. Oh, 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.120 this is the one where Sauma this Santa Claus, they 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.640 give him a red robe. It's been so long, I 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.599 don't even I don't even remember that honestly, but but 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:10.120 I I remember flashes of it. It had it had 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.920 some sort of an impact on me. Um, I'd say 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.240 that I think in hearing about Middle Earth and all um, 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:20.120 it probably also has a lot to do with like 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.839 the two earliest stories that I remember my dad telling 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.120 me were he would tell me about Beowulf and Grendel. 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:28.760 So had this like really early idea of Grendel in 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.679 my head, and then I remember him telling me about 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.320 the Battle of Hastings, so I have I think I 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:37.560 ended up sort of cobbling together this this Middle Earth 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.840 orc as being a combination of Norseman or Viking and 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:45.680 that figure of Grendel. M M. But that's just me personally, 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.719 just based on like where I came into learning about 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.200 the Hobbit and what I've been exposed to previously. UM. 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:54.640 And as as we're going to discuss here. There's there's 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:57.840 subsequently been so many different visions of orcs and what 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:01.200 orcs are, and we're still in the process us uh 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:05.360 of of defining and redefining what an orc is. For 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:07.800 some reason, I remember thinking that the orcs of the 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.880 Peter Jackson movies have a very dickensie and villain kind 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.080 of flare, like they've got this, you know, sinister Cockney 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:20.000 accent that you hear. Yeah, the Peter Jackson orcs are 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:24.400 are are very important in our our modern perceptions of them. 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.680 But but even those are are suitably very There are 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.400 a lot of different visions of what an orc is 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:34.799 in those films. They range from like big like dark 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:39.520 brutes to more goblin e forms. There's like one general 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:41.159 that shows up and I think Return of the King 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:45.760 that has this very like elephant man um tumorous appearance. 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:48.680 And then by the Hobbit films they seem to have 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.400 refined it a little bit to where you have either 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:53.839 refined the work in general or that, or just they've 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.480 decided to portray these sort of misty mountain orcs as 0:06:56.560 --> 0:07:00.719 being almost kind of nos Feratu in they kind of 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:02.840 look like big, beefy nos Feratus in a way, in 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:05.480 a way that I think really works more the classic 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:08.280 Max shrek nos Ferrat or the klass Kinski knows Ferra 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.560 to the Max shredded nos Ferratto. That's that's what they 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:16.000 are like. This is very just very beefy um je Max. 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:22.360 Now we mentioned mentioned um Warhammer just a second ago. 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:26.040 I've long been a fan of of Warhammer, and Warhammer 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.160 forty thousand one is like the fantasy version one is 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:31.840 essentially like a sci fi version of the same universe, 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.120 and it is evolved since then. And you have orcs 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:37.520 in both of them, and in both games orcs are 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:41.160 depicted as green skinned, almost bold, dog like in their 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:45.040 cranial structure. And even more to the point though, these 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:47.640 orcs are presented in a manner that I would I 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:52.880 would dare describe as fun. They If orcs are often, 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:55.520 you know, serving to to represent a kind of dark 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:59.600 savagery of humanity, I'd say that the the Orc Boys 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:03.040 as there sometimes called this with a z uh run 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.000 counter to that, embodying the spirit that kind of celebrates 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:10.080 the kind of goofy primal rebellion, especially in in Warham 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.360 or forty the futuristic version which is a very dark 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.400 and nihilistic, you know, grim dark kind of fictional setting. 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.360 The Orcs are pretty much the only faction that actually 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.960 resonate with any lightness in Whimsy. Like you see are 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.360 the depictions of them or the way that the various 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:28.800 collectors have painted them up, and they often have bright 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.640 colors and kind of a fun goofy quality to them. 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:33.680 I ran across one. I think this is like a 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.160 current figure where it's like an Orc captain and he 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.720 has like a big pirate hat on and a bunch 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:41.920 of cool colorful iconography. They have this kind of slap 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.400 dash technology to them. Uh, they're they're a little bit 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:51.440 monstars in space Jam. I haven't seen space Sham, but 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.720 it's when the nerdy aliens get really big and good 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:58.439 at sports and then they become the mon stars. Okay, 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:02.079 well I'll take your word for it. Um yeah, I 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.439 guess I'm imagining from your telling of it, like sort 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:10.840 of lighthearted monstrosity, kind of cartoonish monstrosity. Yes, Okay. Space 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:15.280 Jam never gets too bleak, you know, they don't. Space 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:18.600 Jam doesn't go full grim dark. A grim dark Space 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:21.320 Jam reboot that would be That would be scot that'd 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:26.959 be so good. Now, this embracing of orc nature. You'll 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.840 find this elsewhere as well. Uh. In Dungeons and Dragons, 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.280 of course, one may play a half work or even 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.040 full blooded works, which allows room for that sort of thing, 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:37.440 and will come back to Dungeons and Dragons in a bit. 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.079 But one title, and this is one that our former 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.200 co host, Christian Uh turned me onto. Uh. There's a 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.559 comic artist by the name of James um stoke O 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.240 I believe that's s. T. O. Koe, and he has 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.800 this comic series called Orc Stain, and it presents a 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.640 delightfully crude and whimsical vision of a world just overrun 0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:00.720 with orcs. The protagonist himself is an Orc here and 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:04.120 it has this kind of I would say, you know, 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:10.040 the art that accompanies the British musical Um Act Guerrillas. 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:13.040 It has kind of that Guerrillas Tank Girl kind of 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.800 vibe to it. It has this very kind of punk 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.320 rock aesthetic, which I've I've I've seen I've seen that 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.640 with orcs elsewhere where. This is kind of convergence of 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:26.920 like punk art culture and the embracing of the Orc. Yeah, 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.160 punk monsters. I think is actually a pretty good tradition. 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:31.720 I don't know how it got started, but I think 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.079 of in the old the old teenage meeting Ninja turtles, 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:38.360 comics like the Bebop and rock Steadier. You're not actually 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:42.800 punk monsters exactly. Yeah, good point. So what does all 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.200 this mean? What are orcs and and why do they 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.640 resonate with us? So why don't we continue to tell 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:51.160 stories about orcs and involve works in our games and 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.520 our fiction, etcetera? Um? Can can we discuss science in 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.240 relation to Orcs? And are there problematic aspects here as well? 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.280 So that's where we're gonna be talking about in this episode. 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.040 But the first step, I imagine, is to discuss what 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:07.760 Tolkien says in universe about the creation of the Orcs, 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:11.240 coming back to our cold opening, and then also discuss 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:15.079 where he even got the name orc itself. All right, well, 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.480 let's enlist in the Orc army, all right? Okay, So 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:21.400 in Tolken's writing, the Orcs are the most common evil 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.760 foot soldier. They were like the ubiquitous enemy. Um In 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.200 the Hobbit we deal more with goblins, which are often 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.400 understood to be either lesser Orcs or a particular species 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:34.160 or subspecies of Mountain Orc and Tolkien apparently rolled out 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:38.320 a few different contradictory origin stories for the Orc in 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.480 his work. But according to the Tolkein Encyclopedia, which is 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.240 a book I typically turn into for such matters, uh, 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.640 they were twisted forms of life that Melk corps spawned 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.280 in the pits of Autumno. Uh. They served as the 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.760 bulk of his armies, and then after his defeat they 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:57.160 served as the bulk of Saron's armies as well. Now, 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:02.120 was melk Or the same person Saron in an earlier incarnation? 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:06.400 Or was milk Or the god that Sauron served? My understanding, 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:08.520 and this is a good point for us to point 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:12.360 out that neither of us are Tolkien scholars or or 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:15.679 professed to be Tolkien experts. It's you're you keep wanting 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:17.560 to do these Tolken episodes, and then we get the 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:21.000 mail from people who are like, actually, I know, and 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.000 I I and I love it. I invited. I I 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:27.320 definitely want to hear from from people more knowledgeable in 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.040 the in Tolkien scholarship than I am, or just in 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:34.000 general you know, or or scholarship if you will. Uh. Now, 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:38.480 my understanding is that melk Or was the original fallen 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:43.680 god that rebelled against everything. Then he was defeated Saaron 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:48.240 being like a fallen Hephestus type forge god had served 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:51.640 melk Orp, but with milk Or destroyed or you know, 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.120 taken out of the picture permanently. Now it's time for 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:58.760 Saron to shine. Basically, Sawn was milk Or's VP. Okay, cool, 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:01.840 Now now we keep off the episode here with that 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.920 cold reading about the creation of the Orcs in the 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.559 in the pits of Autumn. No, you know, the idea 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:11.320 that they would have been created, you know, this sort 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:16.199 of blasphemous process that takes place in a fallen god's dungeons, 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.720 like it was sort of a mockery of life. Yeah, 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.959 the idea that they like captured els and twisted them 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.120 through torture into this new terrible form of life, and 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.920 that the Orcs therefore were products of pain and hate. 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.319 They lived only for pain and hate, and outwardly they 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.920 were quote and this is a from the token Encyclopedia, bent, 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.760 bow legged, and squat So they were apelike in many respects, 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.360 but cunning and cruel. Their skin looked as if burned 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.920 in their eyes were quote Crimson gashes like narrow slits 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.760 and black iron grates behind which hot coals burn. Now, 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.320 there are different varieties of orc, we're told in Middle Earth, 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:56.559 from the goblins of the Misty Mountains to standard works, 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.079 and then later you get these taller, more sun resistant 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.920 or a high orcs that were made by Sawing much later. 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:06.840 And it sounds as if the idea is that Sawin 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:09.560 ends up combining orc stock with human stock to create 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.200 a more human stature day tolerant trooper. Yeah, and I 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:14.760 think that ties into the idea that a lot of 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.120 creatures in Middle Earth or in Tolken's world, like if 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.040 you're a bad creature, you're often sort of confined to 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.680 a nighttime existence. You can't go out in the sun. 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.560 Trolls are this way, and the Hobbit trolls are turned 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:29.000 to stone when Gandalf Tricks came into staying up till 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:31.280 till the sun comes out. And I guess the the 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.080 idea is also that maybe the orcs or the goblins 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:38.760 just don't really like sunlight. Yeah. Now, the Token Encyclopedia 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:42.920 and other sources as well, it has you'll find lengthy 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.480 passages discussing the role of orcs to the history of 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:49.440 Middle Earth. There's there's no shortage of of of information 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:53.680 uh there. But basically the idea is that throughout their 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.360 history the numbers swell and shrink at times when dark 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.840 lord rise up and then fall away. Um. When they 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.080 dark Lords come back to power, the Orcs so there 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.400 to fill the ranks of the evil armies. But even 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:07.600 when they're defeated, they never completely go away. They kind 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.880 of shrink to the hidden corners of Middle Earth. Um. 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.880 And even with the defeat of Saron and Middle Earth's 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.840 transformation into a modern world, there's this idea that the 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.520 Orcs are out there somewhere. So that's the the in 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:24.120 universe explanation or as cannon and origin stories can be 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.200 cobbled together. But of course we know that J. R. 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.920 Tolkien did not create Middle Earth out of nothing. He 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:33.320 forged it out of existing mythological, folkloric and historic motifs. 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:36.360 And I would say, actually maybe more than anything out 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:40.720 of linguistic motifs. You know, the Tolkien loved language, and 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.120 you often get the sense that his story came out 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.440 of having a word for something, you know, like you'd 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.040 find you'd find a word for something an old Norse 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.800 that's just a great word. And and it almost feels 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.720 as if the character springs from the sound of the name. 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.120 Sorry that that makes sense, I know, no, absolutely, I 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:04.120 mean that you you really you can't discuss Tolkien creating 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:07.680 anything without without bringing in language, like clearly, like that 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:12.320 was his his his primary um scholarly interest, and everything 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.320 else kind of like springs out of that. And then 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.840 thus that's where a lot of these characters and species 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:19.520 come from as well. Yeah, so it seems that Tolkien 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.920 actually derived the term orc from a usage in Beowulf. 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.200 Beowulf is of course the great epic of Anglo Saxon. 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.360 It's an epic poem from the early Middle Ages. We 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:32.840 don't know exactly when it was composed. It was written 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:36.040 in Old English, which is the ancestor to modern English, 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.440 but also which is you know, it's so unlike Modern 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:41.680 English that you can't just read it, you know, it's 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.000 basically like another language. You need you need a glossary 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.680 or translation basically to understand it. Uh. And so the 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:53.000 term specifically that appears in Beowulf is or cane us 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:56.560 or cane Us. It is a creature that's mentioned during 0:16:56.600 --> 0:17:00.200 the introduction of the monster Grendel, you know, the real 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.920 first big bad that that Beowulf has to fight. Beowulf 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:07.320 arrives at at Rothgar's meat hall, and the meat hall 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:11.760 is being terrorized by attacks from this monster Grendel. And 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:13.880 so I'm going to read from the J. Leslie Hall 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:17.879 translation of Beowulf. In the part that mentions orcs uh 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:22.120 so or the word or knaos at least Hall translates 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:27.040 for that bitter murder, the killing of able all ruling father, 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.880 the kindred of Cain crushed with his vengeance in the 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.400 feud he rejoiced, not but far away drove him from 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:39.480 kindred and kind that crime to atone for meter of justice. 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:45.480 Thence Ill favored creatures, elves and giants, monsters of ocean 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:49.560 came into being. And the giants that long time grappled 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:53.880 with God, he gave them requital. Now in the Hall 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.399 translation here there are a couple of different words that 0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:00.960 get translated as giants. One is the old English gigantis, 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.880 and the other is a yoton s, which I think 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.240 is where we also get the word yoton like the 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:10.119 Norse mythology giant a couple of different kinds of monsters. 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.440 So in the line that mentions orknas it's a yotanus 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:18.439 and ilfa giants and elves and or canas, which I 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:22.440 think here is translated as monsters of ocean, but other 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:26.480 translations have have chosen different terms for it, sometimes calling 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:30.840 it a a demon or a goblin or something like that. Uh. 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.040 There's also an interesting translation note in the J. Leslie 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:38.080 Hall version of Beowulf which notes that when Grindel himself 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:42.159 is introduced, the word used to describe him could be 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:46.080 translated as demon and often is or could be translated 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:51.880 as stranger. Uh. Literary and linguistic conflation of the unfamiliar 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:55.360 person with the monster of hell, and J. Leslie Hall 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:59.639 actually chooses stranger in in this translation, making for an 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.440 interest set of lines. A foe in the whole building. 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:08.600 This horrible stranger was Grendel, entitled the march Stepper, famous 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:12.960 who dwelt in the moor, fins, the marsh and the Fastness. Oh. 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.119 I love that. So if you think of Grendel as 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.320 a stranger, it gets into some interesting territory about what 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:22.119 monstrosity means, and that a lot of times are our 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:28.119 mythical monsters are sort of ways of mentally metabolizing concepts 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.680 of people who are unfamiliar or who you worry might 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:36.240 be threatening to you somehow. Yeah. Absolutely, But then also 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:38.360 just from a surely like in that on the other hand, 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.159 like just from an imaginative perspective, like I hear that, 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:43.879 and I just love the idea of Grendel as this 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.320 as as the stranger, as this you know, this being 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:51.520 that is um that is almost from another world, you know, 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:54.960 because in many many respects he is well and much 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.280 like the Orc that we were just talking about. Grendel 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.680 here has given an unholy origin story. Right. They say 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.280 that he has descended from Caine, who in the biblical 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.399 story murdered his brother Abel. Caine was you know, the 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:10.080 third human to exist, and Able was the fourth. And Caine, 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.880 I guess, got jealous of Able having having good offerings 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:15.879 to God that God was very pleased with, and so 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.600 Kane murdered him. And then God comes to Caine saying, hey, 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.320 where's your brother? And Kane says, am I my brother's keeper. 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.320 So God curses Kine and sends him off wandering in 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.399 the wilderness to the land of not and Caine's offspring 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:32.200 apparently become the monster Grendel. So it's like there there's 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:35.720 a sort of there's a generational curse that has passed 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:39.600 down for that original crime. Now, in a nineteenth century 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:43.760 glossary of Anglo Saxon terms, the scholar Thomas Wright notes 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:50.120 that Orc means possibly hell, devil, or specter or goblin. Uh, 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:53.200 and he notes that it is phonetically similar to Orcus, 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.360 which was a Roman god of the underworld I think 0:20:56.480 --> 0:21:03.120 somewhat regularly conflated with Satan during times of Christian syncratism. Yeah. Yeah, 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.040 Orcus of course has come up on the podcast before. 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.440 And this also brings to mind that that line from 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:13.760 William Blake, uh that of course is um is adapted 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.760 and switched around a little bit most more probably more 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.560 famously to most listeners in Blade Runner. But that line fiery, 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:24.600 the angels rose as they rose deep thunder rolled around 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:28.480 their shores, indignant, burning with the fires of Orc. Oh, yeah, 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:30.680 that's come up before. I know you like that one, 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:32.600 and that's great. I mean, Blake is always great, but 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:36.360 Orc there is different. Orc is not so much a monster. 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:38.600 There is kind of, like I don't recall exactly, some 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.480 kind of character. Yeah, yeah, you you're dealing with the 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:46.280 Blake um Um cinematic universe there as opposed to any 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.760 of these others. Um. I should add add one thing. 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.120 It's it's interesting that we don't have to really discuss 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.840 what a goblin is in any of this um. There's 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:01.800 something about the goblin in particular that I think you'll 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:05.840 find just about everywhere, Like we've discussed um various Chinese 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:10.240 folklore's and in mythologies before that involve something that is 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.400 translated as a goblin, And it does seem to suggest 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:18.120 that there is just sort of an intrinsic goblin nous 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:22.440 to the human imagination, like there is a space preserved 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:25.040 for the goblin that we we don't even really need 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:27.920 to even expand on too much. Well, yeah, I mean, 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:30.640 I think it's just there's a general fear of something 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:34.520 that is evil, that is roughly shaped like a human 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.560 and has human capabilities in a way, but cannot be 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:41.760 reasoned with and has no and has no like mercy 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:44.879 or morality, and is just sort of like meanness and 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:49.000 cruelty and human form or human form, Yeah, or you know, 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:51.240 kind of I guess sometimes with the goblin, I get 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:54.760 a sense of like the diminutive nature of the goblin's 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:59.280 suggested like a hidden supernatural element to it. And even 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:02.480 though the the the idea of Tolkien's orcs, they kind 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:04.800 of evolve out of an idea of a goblin, they 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:07.720 become something different, They become something more like a human 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:12.040 and therefore kind of divorced from like the supernatural world 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:15.040 of pure fairies, in the same way that Tolken's elves 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:18.800