WEBVTT - How Presidential Pardons Work 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.880 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.480 It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you should know 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:16.440 from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.680 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with me as always as 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:26.600 Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Pardon me, Josh, before we get down. Seriously, 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:28.840 I just had a flashback. I used to do the 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:33.000 show with Chris Pilette. Anybody who listens to tech Stuff. 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:35.920 If you don't, you should will know that he is 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:40.720 among the punniest people on the planet. Are you invoking 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:44.440 Pillette and my name in the same sentence? Wow? You 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:46.320 you shoot puns like that at me? You get the 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:48.800 you get the big guns. Alright, all right, pardon me 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.360 then before we get to this business, right, I just 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:57.920 want to say big welcome to a certain individual. All right, Um, 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:03.120 A little girl named um Sophia Milan Harris was born 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:09.120 today July h M. She's the daughter of my future 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.240 brother and sister in law, Josh Harris and Mika Harris. 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:14.399 People are probably like, Josh had a baby and didn't 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:16.800 even tell us, right, yeah, the other Josh you me 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.360 and her sister, both with Josh's so is that adorable? 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.520 And I met both of them right at your birthday party? Sure, yeah, yeah, 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.720 the one I was on a horse. That's awesome. So 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.760 welcome to the world, Sophia Milan, who's going to be 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.560 called Mila from now on. So thank you very much, 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:34.800 Chuck for indulging. Sure, and since you brought it up, 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.800 I should point out that at Josh's birthday party there 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:44.720 were a pony, horse, bunnies, and goats. Yeah, it was 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:47.039 like the farm was brought in for the party and 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:49.880 there weren't enough kids there to justify it, so we 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:52.520 all know what really was going on. Yeah, you mean 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:54.320 was like, you're so spoiled, I'm going to get you 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:56.360 a pony, and she got me a pony. Of course, 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.360 Emily spent like half the party in the goat create 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:00.600 so well, they were pretty cute goats. One looked like 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:04.080 pure Satanic evil, but the other one was just beyond adorable, 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.840 little pigmy goat because it was three months old, so 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.640 it was really little and cute. Yes, so baby goats, 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:13.400 human babies. So far, it's been like a minute and 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:16.240 a half and we're already like the cute factors through 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.640 the roof man well, we can take care of that. 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.240 Let's talk about pretty much the exact opposite of that, 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:27.480 shall we, Okay, buddy, I was um disheartened to hear 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.160 that July ten came and went and not a lot 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:34.280 of people marked it. But this day was the day 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:43.240 that Um Barack Obama, Mr Change, the president went past 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:50.760 John Adams presidency or administration neglect of clemency requests. So 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:55.639 he waited longer than the other president. It is very interesting. Um, 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.160 John Adams went five hundred and thirty six days, and um, 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:01.480 I should say, ly tenth is the day that Obama 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.160 tied him. You mean John Adams, the second uh, the 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:07.160 I'm sorry, the first vice president in the United States. Yes, 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:11.480 that that same John Adams. Yeah. Um, So anyway, it's 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.760 it's been several days since then. There's been no action 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:18.519 taken on any um requests for pardons from Obama, and 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:20.680 a lot of people are like, that's kind of weird. Um, 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:25.440 he's in third place right now to Clinton, M George W. Bush. 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:30.080 He's busy, Yeah, but as you'll find out, he really 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.560 doesn't have to do too terribly much. And the other 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.040 thing is what's what's odd is he's not doing anything. 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.040 He's not saying. They're just denying. I'm denying of denying him, right, 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:43.240 he's not doing anything with he He inherited a couple 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:48.440 of thousand requests for clemency um, and he I had 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.320 I think have had a few thousand more come up, um, 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:54.240 and he hasn't taken any action on any of them. 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:57.840 It's really puzzling, and it's not very talked about news story. 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.960 But I I I don't have a good answer why 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:03.240 I haven't been able to find one. I've looked, I 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:06.080 mean I looked. Well, usually don't hear about clemency much 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:11.640 till the last part of the president's final term. Not 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.520 necessarily true. And I should say, well, that's when you 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:16.920 lest I should say, that's when you really hear about it, 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:18.880 because that's when they come flying in. Yeah, and they 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.600 come hard and fast, and the real dirty ones come 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:25.919 up around that, you know. Um, I should say that 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:32.920 Obama has pardoned two individuals. There are two turkeys. Oh yeah, yeah, 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.800 that he pardoned last Thanksgiving. Um. And seriously, those are 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.400 the only pardons that he's given so far. Who started that? 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.920 Do you have that info? We don't really know. No 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:45.440 one knows. They think it was a lot of people 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.039 say it was Lincoln, but people have turned up that 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.720 it was actually Harry Truman. But Truman came up with 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:54.080 the idea. Possibly. I think Lincoln made a joke about it. 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.120 Truman came up with the idea, and I think John F. 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:01.000 Kennedy was the first to actually ever follow through with interesting, 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:02.720 that's what I've heard. And I think we talked about 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.240 our Thanksgiving podcast, but I can't remember. So Lincoln made 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.560 a joke about it as he hatcheted off the head 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.040 of a turkey. Yeah, he said he was gonna pardon 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.880 Tad's turkey because mom's so crazy these days. I'm gonna 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.800 gotta do something for the kid. So then he cut 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.480 off the head and said, l O L just kidding, right, 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:21.520 all right, so let's get down to this show. We 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:23.800 presidential pardons. And you wrote this and this was an 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:27.080 awesome article, dude, Thank you. Well. It was one of 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.720 those interesting ones, like the topics just interesting, you know, 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:32.159 because I mean, you think about it, Chuck. We have 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:36.120 a government of that consists of checks and balances, right, 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:40.960 so I mean, well, the way it's set up, you know, 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:45.400 the the Senate has has final approval on the people 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:48.440 the president tries to appoint to the Supreme Court. That's 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:53.200 a check. Um. The Senate can come up with Bill's laws, 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.880 but the President has veto power over him and UM 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:00.200 with the Supreme Court, you can impeach a Supreme Court. This. 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.760 Did you know that? I did not, um, although it 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:05.320 was in the article, So I guess I knew it 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:07.240 at one point in time when I was reminded of it. 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:11.440 So there's always checks and balances, Um, except the presidential pardon. 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:14.760 It exists in this weird vacuum side of everything else, 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:19.000 totally unchecked. You can't do anything about it. Yeah, And I, 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.440 like you pointed out in the article that Congress spends 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:23.599 a lot of time when all the pardons come flying 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:25.160 in hard and fast towards the end, just kind of 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:29.680 like I can't do anything. But I noted that the 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.920 same congressman they want that pardon too, for when they're 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:37.360 in trouble. You know, there's a lot of disingenuous electioneering 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:42.400 or politic politicizing, I guess with pardoning. But originally that's 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:46.159 not what it was intentionally created for. Uh. It has 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.200 become a political tool, right, and as as a result, 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.560 it's really kind of generated this uh, this ire in 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:58.640 public perception. Um. Pretty famously, Gerald Ford took a hit 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.920 in the public sector, right, Yeah, he pardoned Nixon. Yeah, 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.560 that was not a very popular move. No, um, and 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.960 that was kind of sweeping because he pardoned Nixon before 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.960 any charges were ever formally filed, which is no, no 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:17.120 technically with pardons, but weird and hinky. Yeah, and he 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.760 he kind of you know, a lot of people thought 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.400 Ford was a dummy president, not not a smart guy. 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.880 Maybe football injury and they said on dating confused. Um, 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.400 But I remember when he died learning that a lot 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:33.920 of people considered him something of a hero because he 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:35.680 fell on his sword. He through he gave up the 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:39.240 presidency to heal the country and just get the Nixon 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.680 era over with by pardnering the guy right and just 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.520 doing it himself, taking the full ire of the American 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.520 public just said forget it, I'm out of here. Right. 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.520 Another big one was Scooter Libby. Right. Yeah. Every president has, 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.320 you know, a slew of pardons, and every president has 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.120 some shady ones where they kind of get their buddies 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.320 out of trouble because when big money's involved in politics, 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:05.400 there's usually some malfeasants going on. So Scooter Libby was 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:09.920 pardoned by Bush. Yeah, he was j right right, and 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:14.200 he was a um well, he was convicted of obstructing 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:21.160 justice perjury lying to federal investigators. Yeah, exactly, except he 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.320 got really thrown under the bus. But it was for 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:27.640 the whole Valerie Plane thing, the CIA outing right right, 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:33.040 supposedly allegedly in retaliation for Plane's husband coming up with 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.680 analysis that saying like Iraq does not have weapons of 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:42.000 mass instruction, good times. Clinton was also under fire, of course, 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:48.520 for Mark Rich. Yeah not Mark Rick. Mark, No not, 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.280 you can't. You can't pin anything on Mark Rick. That 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:56.839 guy's so squeaky clean. Yeah. Mark Rich was the tax 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:01.600 famous tax evader whose wife x wife left a large 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:06.760 sum of money to the Clinton Library. And so Bill said, yeah, pardon. 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.400 I was hoping you're going to do that. But one 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:13.880 thing I thought was interesting was that it was a 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:17.240 conditional pardon, which we'll talk about. You noticed that as well, Yeah, 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.800 because he agreed basically he went to Switzerland to I 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.160 guess of aid charges initially. Yeah, he pled the country, yeah, 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:28.120 like Polansky style. And Clinton said, I'll pardon you if 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:32.480 you agree not to defend yourself against the civil suits 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:36.000 brought by the United States government. And so he said, yeah, 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.160 that's that's fine, Sure I'll do that. But they were 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:42.160 pretty substantial. It wasn't just text evasion. I uncovered this 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.040 when I was researching for this podcast. The guy was 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:50.240 also um indicted for selling or making oil deals with 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.760 Iran during the Iran hostage crisis, and there was a 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:58.440 full on embargo. Yeah that's light treason, right, Well, that's 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:00.840 that's the funny thing though, on that fun But he said, sure, 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:02.440 go ahead and pardon me, and I'll agree not to 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:04.679 defend myself when I come back to the US. And 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.320 you know, he never came back. Yeah, he's stayed in Switzerland. 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.559 He's like, thanks for the pardon. It's kind of nice here. 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:12.680 So I think when there's a couple of reasons, the 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.000 Mark Rich case stands out. The Mark Rich pardon stands 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:19.600 out so much as it seems so it's it's just 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:24.360 the worst kind of politics when some kind of elitist politician, 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.800 um pardons one of his or her own Yeah, well 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.880 so far one of his own, right, um. And then 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.960 also there were questions about whether Mark Rich bought that pardon, 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.800 whether that that endowment to the Clinton Library was in 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.240 exchange for a pardon. Right, I bought a lot of books. 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.080 I'm sure you know. The other interesting thing. You know 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:49.200 who was lead counsel for Rich William William Kunsler for 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:53.400 fifteen years. Scooter Libby. Oh wow, he was his lawyer. 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.480 And he defended him and said, oh, he didn't evade 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:00.120 any taxes. And Clinton used Scooter Libby and said, we 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:04.600 have a hardcore Republican lawyer that's defending this guy saying 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:06.800 that he didn't do it. So then it's just funny 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.160 how inbred it all this. I think it's funny that 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:15.800 people still differentiate between Democrats and Republicans. Yeah, that's a laugh. Um. Also, 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.960 what lastly, this Mark Rich case red hot. It came 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:24.640 back when Obama was trying to get um Eric Holder 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:28.640 appointed as his attorney general. Yeah, trying to get him 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.360 past the Senate. That was the big contentious issue. How 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.120 did you sign off on the Mark Rich pardon? It 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.160 was like arguably the worst pardon ever in the history 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:40.080 of presidents um and he almost didn't get nominated. I 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.560 remember they stretched it out for weeks. Yeah. So anyway, 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:45.719 let's talk about this and then when we we'll go 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.080 back and talk about some more some more famous and 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:51.160 not so famous but interesting pardons. That sounds good, Josh, 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:53.240 Thanks chuckers Man. We are doing this on the fly 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:58.480 with the record button on what we usually go and 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:02.280 then talk about it and then edit that part out right. So, Chuck, 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.720 what does a pardon do? Why would Mark Rich even 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.880 be interested in having a pardon like this? Why would 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.840 somebody who's been convicted of a crime, sentenced to prison, 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:16.120 serve their time, and been out for several years be 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.920 interested in in getting a pardon? What's the point? Well, 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.520 first I would say, what are you kidding? But we'll 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:26.640 spell it out for you. A pardon, Uh. The main 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:28.440 thing it does is it gets you out of prison, 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.120 which is awesome. But the really awesome thing that it 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:35.440 does beyond that is it restores your civil rights as 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:40.640 a as a you know, free non uh federally incarcerated 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.760 individual or somebody who hasn't being convicted of a felony, 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.079 you know, as a felon, Chuck, you're not allowed to 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.240 own a firearm or right, which is why you couldn't 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:52.439 vote on Tuesday, um or Jerry Ditty, which is that's 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.560 kind of nice, but right, yeah, that one. I don't 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.280 know if that's it's a disability, but that's what they're 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.599 called collectively. When you lose those rights after being convicted 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:04.520 of a felony and that goes on your record, you 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.520 you lose these rights, and that's called civil disability, right, 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.439 and it restores every bit. It's it's almost like an annulmen. 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:12.920 It's as if nothing ever happened save for the fact 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.440 that it does stay on your record, right, and the 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:19.400 records remain that. It took several hundred years for them 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:21.800 to finally establish that. There's a Supreme Court case and 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:27.839 I think the nineties that said the records stay. There's 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:31.000 nice right off the top of your head too, um, 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.520 but there's no they don't have any effect on you 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:39.480 as a citizen and the longer. But that's just with 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.720 the federal government, and that's not even with all branches 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:47.120 of the federal government. Basically, the president. When the president 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.560 issues a pardon, the president is daddy of the country 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.000 right then and is saying, on behalf of the rest 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:57.080 of the American family, We're gonna forgive you for this 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:02.000 transfer transgression. I'm your dad, I'm everybody else's daddy. I'm 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.960 gonna make the decision and let's just move on passes. Now, 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:08.280 your brother, the I R S, your uncle, the I 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.719 R S, I should say, is probably still going to 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.720 sue your off your drunk uncle, right, but you are, Um, 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.960 I can't do anything about that. But you broke the laws, 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.560 and we're going to forgive you for breaking the laws. Right. 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:22.920 Should we talk about other forms of clemency, just so 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.240 everyone's squared away, Yeah, because of pardon. Clemency is the 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.800 umbrella term. Ye, pardon is one type of clemency. That's 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.840 the best point. Yeah, that's what you're gunning for. We 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.480 can we can draw the distinction, though, my friend with 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:43.000 um pardons, commutes, um remissions and what's the last one? Respite? 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:46.720 Respite commutation when you commute a sentence, that means you 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.800 just make it shorter, right, that's not used a whole lot. 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:52.720 You can also commute a sentence before it even starts. Yeah, 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.440 that's weird. That's what happened with Scooter Libby. Yeah, sure 0:14:55.440 --> 0:15:00.160 he got a commutation, but not a pardon. So he's 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.280 a blemished individual as a citizen, but he didn't have 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.080 to go to prisons. He can't vote no, or serve 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.560 on a jury, or own a handgun or own a handgun. 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.440 That's probably a good thing. Um. We already talked about 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:14.280 the full part in the Granddaddy of them all. There 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.960 is the conditional pardon, which we mentioned, which means, um, 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.680 I will do this for you if and the Clinton 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:25.360 example was one. Another good one you listed was Jimmy Haffa. 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:28.280 Nixon pardon Haffa and said, I'll you know, I'll pardon 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:30.400 you as long as you don't take part in any 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:35.000 more labor organization, right And he was like, and go 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.160 sleep with the fishes. But that's all I do, right, Yeah, 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:40.120 And he had to go full on with the mob 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:44.640 after that. His inevitable course was set. With that agreement 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.760 remission we mentioned that is like when you say you 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.040 don't have to pay a fine, it releases you from 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.400 a legal obligation. Again, but that's just with like the 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.560 the federal government, and it's not necessarily with the I 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.760 r S. The I r S sees you in civil court. 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.240 It's it can't. It can't a civil obligation you owe 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.760 to a family for restitution, they can't. They can't remiss 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:12.240 that is that right, remiss remit, but you would be remissed. 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:18.000 Jerry's laughing in there. Respite is basically a temporary thing 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:20.160 where the president is like, you know what, let me 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:21.760 hold this off for a month or two while we 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:24.960 look at it, right, like an execution. Well, isn't that 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.400 a stay or is it the same thing? I don't know. 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.280 I don't know if a stay of execution is just 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:34.320 issued by the governor, or if a stay of execution 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.480 is a type of respite because this is only federal cases, 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:42.360 because the president can't touch state or local cases. Yeah, 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.000 so maybe that's a deaf does Yeah, the Feds. The 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:50.640 Feds execute people. The president could could keep somebody who 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.520 was sentenced to death through a court martial, they could, 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.720 they could give them respite. It's kind of like, hey, 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.000 here's a nice hot towel. Sit in the corner while 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:00.360 we figure out whether they we're going to kill you 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.360 or not, and you can you can polose on top 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:03.920 of each other. If you need more time, you can 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.160 issue them in succession and it's it doesn't interfere with 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.560 the trial or anything like that. Right, So you like 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.399 a lot of these kind of working conjunction like the 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:19.000 the the booyah combo that you want is the commutation 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.080 of sentence before it even starts, followed by or in 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.080 conjunction with, the full parton or a rest bit maybe 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:27.199 then the full part. Right. But I mean, if you 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.560 if you love a sense of drama, yeah go you 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:32.560 can tack the rest fit onto the beginning. I just 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:34.160 want to keep my butt out of jail. I don't 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:37.199 care if it's dramatic, right, just give me whatever puts me, 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.640 you know, back on the sidelines or back in the game. Sorry, 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.280 mixing sports metaphors that reminds me of a dream, Chuck 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.639 that I had. Um. I dreamt that I was at 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.240 a breakdancing championship, which I've actually been to you before. Um, 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.280 but I was sitting there like watching like all these 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:59.439 people break dance, you know, watching it. No, Actually, what 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:02.000 I figured out was I dreamt that I was watching 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.840 other people breakdance. I don't even have enough of an 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.359 opinion of myself to dream that I, myself is an 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:09.000 awesome break That's what I about to say, Dude, that 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.359 would be the master champion breakdancer in my dream. Right, 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:12.600 But you just said that you want to be out 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:14.400 of jail, so you can get back to the sideline. 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:18.640 That's what triggered that. Maybe we'll edit that out in post. 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:22.760 Huh no, so Chuck, what doesn't a pardon do? It 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.760 sounds like it's um basically the hand of God coming down, 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.320 touching you on the head and saying, go buy a 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:33.879 gun because you can uh one thing it does not 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.120 do and you cannot touch. And they were pretty smart 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.399 back when they wrote the constitution. Um, they made sure 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.680 that a you can impeach a president and be that 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:49.280 you cannot pardon an impeachment, right. Um. They they actually 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:53.360 didn't include presidential pardons in a couple of the plans 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:55.720 for the constitution. The New Jersey Plan and the Virginia 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.639 Plan both lacked presidential pardons, and Alexander Hamilton's was like, 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:04.640 I think Federal's paper number seventy four. Yes, yeah, Um. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:09.160 He argued that there are times when this could really 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.280 come in handy guys, So let's put it in, but 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:16.240 let's make sure it doesn't apply to impeachment, right, because 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.359 if the president can be impeached and if he can't 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:23.159 pardon himself while he's being impeached, then he won't become 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:28.840 this absolute authoritarian. He can't possibly right, So, um, that 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:30.680 was how it ended up in there. But actually that 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:33.800 went further back, and we'll talk about that in a minute. 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:36.399 But they almost left the whole thing out and then 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:38.520 they said, no, we'll just follow custom. What were you 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:40.480 going to say it came over from England? Yeah, say 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.399 it man, Well it's actually the whole the whole idea 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:47.280 is rooted in the prerogative of the king, the English king. Yeah, 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.960 we got a lot of our early ideas clearly since 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:53.040 we had just uh, you know, come from England. We're 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.480 based on good old England, right, English common law or 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.159 royal law, I guess is what this would be, um, 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:03.359 And I think that's probably why presidential pardons weren't included 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:07.080 in a couple of the really popular plans for the Constitution, 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.639 because it was kind of smacked of royal tyranny, right yeah. 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:13.719 But they Charles, the second, I think, is the one 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:17.960 who originally thought of the impeachment idea, right, Well, either 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.880 he thought of it and was a fan, or he 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.600 was one of the weaker kings or one of the 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:28.159 more benevolent kings. Because a parliament that was in session 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:32.000 while he was reigning managed to slip that onto the 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:35.119 custom of the prerogative of the English king. So you 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:39.720 can overturn any court case except cases of impeachment, right, yes, 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:42.840 which is you know, there's some other ways that the 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.240 courts over the years of sort of shaped. Um. I 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:50.640 guess you could say limited or defined how you can 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:53.159 pardon and how you can't. Um like we said, it's 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.920 only federal cases. You can't affect civil civil cases at all, 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:01.560 and um like we all I mentioned restitution to a family. 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:04.919 So let's say if O. J. Simpson, in a weird 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:08.120 alternate world, were convicted of cutting his wife's head off, 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.200 if he had done that, if he had really done that, 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:13.399 he could not have been he could have been pardoned 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:15.159 for that. But um it, let's say if the president 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.280 was a big fan of the juice, but he could 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.320 not have been relieved of paying a goldman all that 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.040 money that he lost, Which is weird because he was 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.000 found guilty or not guilty, But what do you call 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:30.480 it's libel for her death and his son's death in 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:33.920 a civil suit. Guilty in a court of law, criminally, Yeah, weird, 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:36.280 so strange how that can happen in this country. Yeah, 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.080 that was a really weird moment in this country's history. 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:43.359 Huh um, chuck. There's some other ways that the presidential 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:49.560 pardon has been shaped. Um, you can't force the well, 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.040 you the the idea used to be was that you 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:54.560 can't force a person to take a parton. That's my 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:57.280 favorite little nugget in this whole article. Right, So you 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:00.000 would think like, oh, yeah, here's your partner, especially if 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:02.840 it's like a commutation of sentence and you get out 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:06.119 of jail early. Um, not everybody's done with that. Some 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:09.560 people are what we called institutionalized, can't make it out 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:14.000 on the outside any longer. Yes, he was institutionalized. He 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:16.200 couldn't make it, and he hung himself in the little 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:19.560 halfway house sort of that they set him up with. Right. 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:21.680 It was one of the sadder moments of the Shaw 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:25.639 Shank redemption. There was another guy who, um that may 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:28.760 or may not happen have happened to His story kind 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:32.040 of ends slightly before that as far as we can tell, 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:37.479 as far as we know, Um, Calvin Coolidge, the cool 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:40.440 he uh he he gave a pardon to a guy 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:42.360 who was in jail, and the guy didn't want to leave, 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:45.480 so he directly ordered the warden to get the guy 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:48.680 out of prison and shut the cell behind him. Well, 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:51.680