WEBVTT - Michael Dillon: Trans Pioneer 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:03.520 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of five 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:12.400 Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:15.680 I'm Josh Clark. And there's Charles Chuck. Brian over there, 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:18.159 look at all stern and serious with his glasses on. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:20.720 Oh now he took him off. He's all good. And 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.960 then there's Jerry over there. He's not sure where she is. 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:27.400 Serie always sets her classes on. I know she looks 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:29.960 weird with her classes off. She is a four eyes 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:33.959 that's what they call him in sixth grade. That's right, Well, 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:35.520 that's what they used to. I don't know. Sixth grades 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:39.440 are probably way more mature than they were when we 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.479 were young, huh, or way more advanced in their digs 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:47.919 and insults. Yeah, just a lot smarter than four eyes. Right, 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.720 Like your mom gives you no screen time each tweet 0:00:53.479 --> 0:01:00.400 to you on that. That's a good one, is it? Sure? So, Chuck, 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:03.760 I'm glad we're here in the hot box. This was 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:07.880 a really good pick on your part. Thanks. You basically 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:12.440 yanked an unsung or probably sung now, but for many years, 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:18.319 unsung hero of UM the trans community. Yeah, give all 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.199 the credit to me. You really did a great job here, Chuck. 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:24.520 You did a good job finding this one because I 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:26.800 hadn't heard of Michael Dillon yet. But that's who we're 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:30.640 talking about today, that's right. Uh, and it's just the 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.560 most macro view. So you know what we're talking about 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.600 is Michael Dillon very much overlooked over the years as 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:43.200 a trailblazer in the trans community. Period. Yeah, that's enough 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:46.160 of an overview. Okay, you're like one of the first 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:48.920 people to undergo surgery, one of the first people to 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:52.400 like write about it and write books, but not not 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:55.160 necessarily even just one of They believe that Michael Dillon 0:01:55.320 --> 0:02:03.240 was the first female to male um gender confirmation surgery ever. Yeah, 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.120 and you know there are different terms in this article. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.919 We should say they call that gender confirmation surgery now. 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.760 They used to call it sexual reassignment. Before that, it 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:18.280 was sex change. Yeah for sure. And uh, the pronouns 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:20.800 in this are going to shift too, because I think 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:22.799 we're just going to follow the timeline of the story 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:27.040 pronoun wise, right, Yeah, yeah, that kind of makes sense. Yeah, 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:32.200 because for significant Porsche, well the first several years now 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:34.520 I'm trying to think, I don't know how old he was, 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:38.040 but yeah, he spent like a lot of his formative 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:43.000 life as a girl. UM. And there's a the waters 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.799 are a bit muddied, but they were kind of purposefully 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:51.079 muddied historically. UM. And it's not entirely clear whether Michael 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:55.320 Dillon born Laura Dilon, Laura Maude Dilon, um, whether Laura 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:59.360 Maud Dillon was born intersex um, or if that was 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:06.480 just kind of draped over the public um presentation of 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:10.600 this gender confirmation journey um, in order to kind of 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:12.920 gain public sympathy, which is something you had to do 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.120 back then for sure. Yeah. I mean it's the waters 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:20.680 were very throughout history and still are very much muddied. Um. 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.200 I mean you can go back and look at examples 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:27.200 in history of people that we don't know because the 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.880 world wasn't set up for recognition or acceptance of any 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:35.839 kind of alternative lifestyle or anything on the gender spectrum. 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.560 And so we don't know about Joan of arc or 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.640 we don't know for sure about uh emperor what is 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:46.200 his name, Alla Elagabulus, Like he he tried to get well, 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:48.360 I guess I don't even know what they called that 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:52.440 surgery back then in like Roman times, who knows, But 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:54.760 he tried to have the surgery way back then. Even 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.840 oh I didn't find anything like that. Okay, yeah, all right, Um, 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.000 well we just don't know, like you said, because history 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.480 didn't acknowledge this kind of thing, so it's hard to 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:07.920 sort of, uh categorize it today. Yeah, absolutely right. Um. 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:12.120 It actually wasn't until about the early twentieth century, like 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:17.960 the first fifth of the twentieth century, that the medical establishment, 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:21.760 just tiny little pieces and dots here there of the 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:27.160 medical establishment, especially in the kind of newly burgeoning um 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:32.920 discipline of plastic surgery, began to see like, oh, wait 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:34.520 a minute, wait a minute, there are people out there 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:38.400 who feel like that they were born the wrong gender, 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.520 like their their their sense of self, their identity of 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:47.440 their gender doesn't match their biology, and we can do 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.839 something about that. Uh. And at first it was extremely 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:55.880 radical for the first several decades, Um, it was extremely radical. 0:04:55.920 --> 0:05:00.000 I mean now even it's it's definitely gained much more acceptance, 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:04.080 this idea that some people are born, um they identify 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:05.839 with a different gender than what they were born with. 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:10.000 Um that at the at the in the like nineteen twenties, 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.960 it was very very radical, but it did exist in 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.720 some parts of the medical community. Yeah, And I also 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:19.719 get the feeling that plastic surgeons, especially like a some 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.719 of them were probably out to like assist people, but 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.359 I think a lot of them were just like it 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.560 was such a new discipline period. They were they liked 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.360 the challenge. They were like nip tucking it. You remember 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.360 those renegades on that show. I forgot about that show. 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:37.240 It was a good show at first, Yeah, but I 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:39.479 got I never saw it. Oh, it was a good 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:42.360 show first. It went off the rails, maybe even more 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.840 than Dexter did, but it was a good show at 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.000 first for the first several seasons. No, but I get 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:50.839 the feeling that plastic surgeons back then we're just like, oh, well, 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:53.719 this like is probably the ultimate challenge, right, Yeah, I 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.400 have I have that feeling too for sure. So this 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:00.880 is just a means of setting up the world that um. 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:05.200 Laura Mall Dillon found herself born into in Ireland in 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:09.360 nineteen fifteen as a h and I've never heard this term, 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:14.880 but his family um had a title of baronet, which 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:18.320 is apparently the lowest hereditary titled order. It's a teeny baron. 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:22.120 So you're a you're a commoner, but you are required 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:26.279 to be called sir really yeah, okay, um, And even 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.039 if it wasn't like kind of the teency version of 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.640 the baron the um, the Dylan's were not like wealthy. 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:34.679 They had an estate, but it was kind of an old, 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:37.320 kind of crumbling estate. They weren't poor or anything, but 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:39.960 they were certainly not well off right. And then by 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.960 Downton Abbey times shin Fain came along and burned the 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.080 place to the ground, the estate to the ground, because 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.839 it was kind of a reminder of English intrusion into Ireland, 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.480 like you know, landed and gentry kind of thing. Um. 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.760 I'm rewatching Downton Abbey by the way, are you? Yeah? Uh? 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.000 How is it? It's comfort food, which is what I 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:02.720 need right now, so that's why we're watching it. Is 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:04.480 it better the first time or the second time around? 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:07.760 Well the first I don't know. Right now. It's just 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:09.640 like kind of what the doctor ordered. So it's kind 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.320 of great, just like all my old pals. Plus the 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:14.920 movies coming out this fall that's so neat, So maybe 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.600 this is a primer. I don't know what they're they're 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.960 making a movie. Yeah, has there let me ask you this? Sorry, everybody, 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.880 has there ever been a movie version of a TV 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.720 show that was better than the TV show. I'll have 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.160 to get back to you on Okay, I can't think 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:33.760 of one. A movie version of a TV show. I 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.040 cannot think of one. I think the Fresh Prince movie 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:39.320 was pretty great what they did. No, I'm just kidding. 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:41.560 I was like, we have to stop for two hours 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:45.920 called Independence Day, right, Yeah, I guess it kind of 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:50.600 was alright. So, Um, Laura mau Dylan, Um, the family, 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.600 like you said, the state was burned down. He had 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:57.160 gotten or I guess she see there we go. Um 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.880 at the time, she had gotten a um, an inheritance 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:03.200 a little bit, not a ton, yeah, because she was 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.000 young when she would have gotten this inheritance. Yeah. But 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:10.040 her brother got the actual you know, estate, which, as 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.200 it turned out, wasn't that great of a yet. So 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:16.280 he was burned down. He Robert, her brother, became the 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:20.280 eighth Baronet of Liz Mullen. And I guess when he 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.080 was handed the title he was like thanks, Yeah, I guess. 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:31.080 But young Laura knew very early on that she was different. Um. 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:34.240 She especially when she got to puberty. Um, she didn't 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:37.720 like wearing girl's clothing. She never thought of herself as 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:39.839 a female. Yeah. I think that's a good point, Like 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.080 that comes through and everything I've read about her for 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:47.600 him that he never thought, he never identified as female, 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:51.240 like basically his entire life. Yeah, And apparently there was 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.320 even a incident when she was a teenager where like 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.960 a boy held open the door for her, and that 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.760 just sort of it was a symbol I think of 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:04.719 all the confusion that she was feeling and really kind 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:08.280 of wrecked her identity, you know, in a lot of ways. Yeah, 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:10.760 I think it was the first time she was really 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:14.440 confronted with what people saw her as and it was 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:17.960 a girl. And she was like, I don't feel like 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:21.679 a girl. That's not me. I'm I'm a man. Um 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.520 that's a that's I. I didn't grow up that way. 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.160 But I can't imagine how rough it is to to 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:31.440 feel out of sync like that, and especially at a 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:33.760 time where what do you do You don't even have 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.200 words for it, let alone procedures to follow or people 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:40.720 whose footsteps who pioneered the way, which is one reason 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:46.000 why Michael Dillon was a pioneer. So she gets that inheritance, 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.360 which allows her to go to Oxford and this sort 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:54.000 of begins a trend of going somewhere else to try 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.800 and find herself and figure herself out. She tried at Oxford, 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:01.000 she joined the rowing team. Um, she was an award 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.280 winner for the women's boat club and was successful and 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:06.880 then and it's hard, well, I guess it's not too 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.640 hard to believe. But there was a photo of her 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:14.400 in a tabloid as a student rower that was titled 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:18.120 man or woman because she had like a boyish haircut. Yeah. 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.800 I just can't imagine back then, Like I mean, now 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.040 it's awful too, but they were doing this kind of 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:26.000 thing back then. Yeah, like outing college students. Yeah. I 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:30.360 think it was more like, um, the commoners poking at 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:35.560 the the titled people. Oh any chance they got That's 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.120 the impression I have, correct me if I'm wrong. In 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:43.520 Great Britain. Uh, And this is about the time where 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.400 we should mention a novel UH publishing night by Marguerite 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:52.120 Radcliffe Hall called The Well of Loneliness, which was a radical, 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:57.560 radical book because it depicted a lesbian and there wasn't 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.199 even a name for that at the time. Like you said, Yeah, 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:03.000 I looked that up and I was like, like, there 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.719 really wasn't like the word lesbian wasn't in use it 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.920 and there was no word whatsoever. And from what I 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:17.680 saw on etymology online, it just says, with zero explanation lesbian. Yeah, 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.080 but I can't find any other thing. I find no 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:22.760 other data or whatever. So it's possible that it was 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:25.640 in use right around this time, but I hadn't spread. 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:28.960 But from what I saw, I think I think the 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.760 point is there wasn't a concept, not just a word. 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:37.199 There wasn't a concept for women who were interested or 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:41.160 who were who were sexually oriented towards other women. That 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.520 was that kind of fell under an umbrella term as 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.360 far as society went for women who were sexually uninhibited, 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:49.800 like they would do that, but then they would also 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.120 have sex with guys and they would like walk around 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:54.120 parties naked or whatever. Is that kind of like it 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.200 all it was all one big personality. There wasn't like 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.679 the idea that there were there was a sexual orientation 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.560 of women who were oriented towards women. That just that 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.080 it was I think what really didn't exist, and that 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:09.760 what the the well of loneliness really kind of put 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:13.720 out there like hey, this does exist, and um, you 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:18.120 could say that it wasn't well received by British society. Yeah, 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:19.760 and it was I mean a lot of ways. It 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.439 was a great thing because it gave people uh like 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:27.600 uh young Laura, the you know, it's something to look 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.720 at and identify with. But it also put forward ideas 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.120 about um lesbians being very mannish and like they want 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.200 to be men and look like men and dress like men, 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:39.199 which is of course not the case, but it was 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:44.320 also right. And so the the British the British government 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.840 decided that this book was obscene and had a huge 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:51.600 trial over it and banned the book, and it had 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.480 a complete streisand effect. Everybody's like, wait, what book is this? 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:58.200 What what are you talking about? Everybody right, right exactly, 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.400 and so everybody wanted to know about it, and it 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.319 like made this huge impact. It is totally backfired by 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.800 banning it and going to the trouble of of taking 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:09.120 it to trial and everything. It became kind of a 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.959 big deal and so it kind of informed um, how 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:18.560 a lot of British lesbians viewed themselves. It gave them like, Okay, 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:20.400 I'm not the only one. This is a real thing. 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.520 It was, it was, It was helpful in a lot 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.120 of ways to well I mean one way it was 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:31.360 helpful to young Laura Dylan was realizing, well, wait a minute, 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:35.720 I'm not a lesbian either, so uh there, I have 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:37.840 no idea how to think about myself other than the 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:42.199 fact that I was born into the wrong gendered body. Right, 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.719 Because at first she was like, okay, maybe this is it. 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.840 And I supposedly she fell in love as a teenager, 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:53.880 so Air quotes um with two women who were straight 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:56.920 and they rejected her and it had a big impact 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:00.720 on her. But from that experience, and I think having 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.680 been guided by this book, like you said, she realized like, 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:05.800 I'm not a lesbian. That's not that's not what this 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:11.120 is about. She was a man, and what superseded all 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:15.560 other desires and what drove her more than anything else, 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:21.080 was to be the man that she felt she was physically, 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:25.720 so that she could be accepted into male society. That 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:27.880 was her goal. It wasn't to have sex with women. 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.040 If she could have had a kid with a woman, 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:33.440 she would have loved that, but inasmuch as it would 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:37.280 confirm her identity as a man, and so that's what 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:43.480 drove her to undertake um hormone procedures, surgery and basically 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:48.000 everything that that pushed her toward confirming her identity as 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.920 a man. It was the desire to be accepted as 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:54.240 a man. Yeah, and and that process kind of started 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:58.200 at Oxford when she started dressing as a man. Uh, 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.160 kind of presenting outwardly as a man, going to evince 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.880 as a man. And it was sort of a double 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:05.960 edged sword. There was a little bit of freedom to that, 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.240 um and a little bit of you know, work towards 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:14.840 self realization. But um, you know, she graduated as a woman, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.200 still had a female name on her birth certificates, still 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:20.200 still had to you know, got a job and had 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.920 to wear skirts and dresses a woman at work. So 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.200 it's sort of just still trapped between two worlds. Uh. 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:29.120 When she comes in contact with a man named Dr 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.960 George Fosse, I think we should take a break. I agree. Okay, 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:53.680 all right, Jim, sorry, all right, Chuck, you're setting everybody 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.960 up for the doctor Fosse bomb Drop. Let's hear about Fosse. 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:00.760 Not a bad band name, the doctor Boss bomb Drop. 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:06.280 That's like a doctor teeth in the electric what electric mayhem? 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.520 That's right, the right nice for work that foss was 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.280 speaking of, double edged swords. He was a doctor who 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:18.960 was experimenting with testosterone on patients, like the first yeah, 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.960 and injections. Uh. Then this was in like the nineteen thirties, 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:28.600 and what this was to help reduce unpleasant heavy periods 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:31.600 for women. But it had the side effect, the obvious 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.800 side effects that would happen when a woman takes testosterone. 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:39.360 And Laura Dillon gets word of this and volunteers and says, 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.120 I'm kind of interested in the side effects, if you 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:43.960 know what I mean. Right. He's like that, I don't know, 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:47.400 since this is I have no idea what you're talking about, right, 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.280 So he's like, oh, okay, all right, Well you would 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.880 be the absolute first as far as anybody knows, since 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:57.080 synthetic hormones were very, very new. Um, Laura Dillon was 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:01.720 the first to try to undergo hermone therapy UM for 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.920 gender confirmation. No one had ever tried that before. I 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.280 did even call it hormone therapy. But Foss was like, 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:10.639 all right, I'm not quite sure about this. How about 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:13.320 I've heard of people like you. You go see a 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.200 shrink and talk to a shrink first, and then come 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.960 back afterwards, and then I'll talk about treating you or whatever, 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:25.000 and so Laura UM went to a shrink and they 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:26.919 didn't call them shrinks back then either. No, they call 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:30.600 them psycho words for anything, psychotherapists. That guy over there, 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.640 I think that's what they said. Um and then came 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:37.840 back and said, Hey, the shrink said whatever, and how 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:40.639 about we do this hormone therapy. Fause said, you know what, 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:46.359 I've changed my mind. But here's a bottle of testosterone tablets. 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:49.040 Good luck. I'm just gonna leave them on this table 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.240 and walk out of the room. I was thinking we 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.440 should fully in the sound effect of a bottle of 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.800 pills being tossed from one person. Who I know, what 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:01.440 does that sound like? It's kind of a silent act, 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.280 A little yeah, Well these are really good mis thof 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.800 so um. And we should also point out that that's 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:13.560 uh psychiatrist or psychologists who spoke with Laura then gossiped 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.200 about this to other people, and that got back to 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.200 the research facility where Laura worked. So just one of 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.159 many betrayals in her life, and such a betrayal that 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:24.879 that she said I'm out of here. She had to 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:29.159 actually leave work this this research lab because the the 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.720 heat had been turned up on her, And yeah, that's 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.679 a There are a string of betrayals that that popped 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.800 up throughout his Michael Dillon's life. Um and and this 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.600 is one of the first significant ones. But also um, 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.520 he was also a very lonely person and just because 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:48.639 of his situation and because there there was no community 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.760 for him. And he had some like real friends here 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:55.280 and there, but they were kind of random, surprising people. 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.080 Like one of the big influences on his life was 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:01.159 the town vicar from him where he grew up as 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:05.880 a girl, really kind of connected and understood him. Um. 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.200 And he his family was not very supportive. His brother 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.840 Robert disowned him at one point. His aunt Toto. Have 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.040 you ever seen a picture of aunt Toto. If there's 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:20.359 ever been a woman named aunt Toto that looked like 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:24.120 an aunt Toto, it's this lady. Um. She was obviously 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.159 supportive because in the picture she's walking around with Michael Dillon, 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:31.520 full full dress, beard and everything. Um. But aunt Toto 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:36.400 was supportive. She was inasmuch as she would be out 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.480 in public pictured with him. But I don't have the 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:43.480 impression that she was like supportive supportive. I think maybe 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.000 she tolerated it. That's the impression that I have or 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:51.200 it probably chided him, who knows, but um, he he 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.080 didn't have a lot of friends, but the ones that 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:56.280 he did have really helped him in some profound ways 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.280 and helped kind of. He did have a the kind 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:07.399 of mountain mountain chain of support throughout his life, but 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.359 never a bunch of people at once, gotcha, you know 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.200 what I mean, So mediocre support dabbled here and there 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.000 throughout his life. He had to do it on his own, 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:20.080 I guess. So this is where, uh, you know, the 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:24.359 pronoun definitely shifts at this point because, um, Laura fully 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:29.399 starts using testosterone, fully starts living life as a man, 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.679 took on the name Michael, became Michael, grew a beard, 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.000 his voice, you know, because the hormone treatments worked, like 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.800 his voice dropped and became lower pitched. He got a 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:43.879 job as a mechanic. Of course, he got made fun 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:48.320 of their some, but um, it was working well enough 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:52.000 to where like customers started to um, he started to 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.080 kind of pass as a man among people that didn't 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.280 know who he was very much. So as long as 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:00.359 he was clothed, he was a man. It's just what 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:02.600 he looked like to everybody is, like you said, the 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.359 voice of the beard, UM, the demeanor. He was a 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:08.399 very he was a large man, UM, very well built 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.560 from all those years of rowing. UM. And then you know, 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:14.800 a decade of testosterone pills are coming, you know, half 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:18.600 a decade. By this point, UM had really taken effect. 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:20.760 And this is in Bristol. I don't think we mentioned 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:25.200 another like move to try and start over, right because 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:29.480 of that gossipy headshrinker who basically got him driven out 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.080 of his job at the research lab. Right. So, Um, 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.080 he's working at the garage and he's he's there is 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:43.440 a certain bitter suite UM confirmation or affirmation from interacting 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:46.680 with customers who leave thinking that they just interacted with 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:50.280 the man, making him feel like himself, the person he's 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:52.439 always wanting to be. UM. But like you said, he's 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:55.680 getting mocked by coworkers. UM. But one of the things 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:59.239 that he does is he takes on extra work as 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:03.040 a firewak. True because this is during the Second World 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:06.919 War and Um, Britain was getting bombed during the Blitz 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:11.119 by the Germans and Michael Dylan would sit up and 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:14.680 watch for fires that broke out and would you know, 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:17.399 call the fire brigade, you know, tell him where to 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:19.760 go because the bomb had just set some building on fire, 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:22.680 which meant very long hours awake in the dark, sitting 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.840 around doing nothing. And he took this time to write 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:30.840 a book called Self, and Self was a really interesting 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:35.000 tone from what I can tell, where there was kind 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:41.840 of a scientific treatise on endocrinology, psychological treatise on UM 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:47.040 basically what would come to later be known as trans identity, 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:51.360 well and everything, gender identity, homosexuality. Like he was kind 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:54.960 of tackling it all, except not saying like this is 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:57.640 who I am, right, He was approaching it like I'm 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:02.000 a scientist and this is this is what's what. Yeah, 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:05.480 And it got published in ninety six. It was obviously 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:10.119 not some huge bestseller because it was n UM. I 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:13.879 would say it was probably tucked away in certain corners 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:17.280 of certain bookstores, but not widely you know, acknowledged and 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:20.280 available at the time now looked upon as a landmark, 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:24.439 sure piece of work. But in and the people who 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:28.199 were in this you know UM scattered trans community at 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:31.080 the time who were lucky enough to find it, found 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:33.159 a lot of solace in it because it argued on 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.000 their behalf at the time, there was a the medical 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:41.760 community was like, if you're born intersex, where it's unclear 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:46.320 what your gender is, you are you're morally in the clear, 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:48.920 Like we can feel bad for you, there's things we 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:52.400 can do, We'll do surgeries. No one's going to really 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:57.240 judge you if you're If you're born biologically one gender 0:23:57.359 --> 0:24:00.080 but you want to be the other gender, you're what 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:02.840 everybody considered back then, a freak like that was the 0:24:02.880 --> 0:24:05.879