Speaker 1: Hi, This is Milan Vervier and this is Kim Azarelli.
Speaker 1: We are co authors of the book Fast Forward, How
Speaker 1: Women Can Achieve Power and Purpose. And you're listening to
Speaker 1: Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose, brought to you
Speaker 1: by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Carolin Tastad is the Group President North America for PNG,
Speaker 1: and she also serves as the Executive Sponsor of Gender
Speaker 1: Equality for PNG Worldwide. Under her leadership, PNG has made
Speaker 1: significant strides in advancing equality in the workplace and in
Speaker 1: the world. Caroline sat down with Milan during the World
Speaker 1: Economic Forum in Davos to discuss the concrete steps companies
Speaker 1: can take to close the income gap between men and women,
Speaker 1: a simple technique anyone can use to disrupt bias, and
Speaker 1: her belief that accelerating progress on gender equality is truly possible.
Speaker 1: Listen to their conversation and stick around after for my
Speaker 1: top takeaways. We'll be back after this break. Caroline, we're
Speaker 1: here in Davos and we know that the World Economic
Speaker 1: Form puts out an annual gender gap report. The latest
Speaker 1: report estimates a staggering two hundred and fifty seven years
Speaker 1: that it will take to close the gap between men
Speaker 1: and women on economic participation. Does this surprise you, Well, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: it's not really a surprise because, as you and I
Speaker 1: have talked many times, one of the things that we
Speaker 1: still encounter is these false narrow atives about women, and
Speaker 1: they continue to be visible in our society, in our workplace,
Speaker 1: uh and frankly even here at Davos, and it really
Speaker 1: just illustrates how people still believe that women may lack ambition,
Speaker 1: or they lack confidence, that they have a responsibility to
Speaker 1: carry more of the load at home, or that they're
Speaker 1: opting out of big rules. And the truth is, as
Speaker 1: you and I know, men and women are different and
Speaker 1: we act differently because we've been socialized differently, we have
Speaker 1: different experiences. You know, men stereotypically amplify their capability and
Speaker 1: again I want to say this is a stereotype. It's
Speaker 1: not true of all men, of course, and women stereotypically
Speaker 1: understate their capability. That's all okay to understand. But when
Speaker 1: we shortcut that and we label it as men have
Speaker 1: confidence and women don't have confidence, that's when we take
Speaker 1: a misstep, and that's when we do damage for women.
Speaker 1: That's why we're going backwards. These false narratives about women
Speaker 1: cause us to focus on fick seeing the women versus
Speaker 1: fixing the systems, the norms that perpetuate that global gender gap. Well,
Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right, But what can we do
Speaker 1: about these false narratives. Well, I think, as we've said,
Speaker 1: it's time to acknowledge that gender inequality has to be fixed,
Speaker 1: but the women don't need to be So that mindset
Speaker 1: shift changes everything, and it really allows us to set
Speaker 1: a higher standard, to see a bigger picture and to
Speaker 1: recognize that there's a lot of things that have to
Speaker 1: change in our organizations, in our workplace, in our society
Speaker 1: in order for the world to see equal. So there's
Speaker 1: been so much awareness building in recent years about these issues,
Speaker 1: particularly in the private sector, and yet we have this sense,
Speaker 1: and we also have the evidence space case that we
Speaker 1: aren't moving forward faster. Why are we still seemingly stuck? Well,
Speaker 1: I think at the heart of it biases everywhere, and
Speaker 1: what we have to do is learn to enter up
Speaker 1: that bias. And most corporate leaders, most decision makers are
Speaker 1: recognizing that bias exists. We have to learn to interrupt
Speaker 1: the bias, and there are ways to do it. Lymp
Speaker 1: can give you an example from PNG. I was working
Speaker 1: with one of our marketing directors and he was excited
Speaker 1: to show me a new ad campaign for one of
Speaker 1: our shampoo brands. And he said, listen to this, I'm
Speaker 1: so excited. And he started reading the concept board and
Speaker 1: what the intention was, and at one point he came
Speaker 1: to a line where he said, because when she looks good,
Speaker 1: she can be her best. And I said, okay, hang
Speaker 1: on a minute. What I want you to do is
Speaker 1: just go back and read that again with the same enthusiasm,
Speaker 1: but substitute he for she. He said, okay, and he
Speaker 1: went back and he started going through it, and he
Speaker 1: read the board and then he said because when he
Speaker 1: looks good, and then he started laughing and he said,
Speaker 1: that's that just sounds ridiculous. And I said, exactly, So,
Speaker 1: if it really sound ridiculous when you say it for he,
Speaker 1: it's also sounding ridiculous when you say it for she.
Speaker 1: And so we call that flip the pronouns. And this
Speaker 1: notion of flipping the pronouns helps you see where there's bias.
Speaker 1: It's the same thing when we talk about the opportunity
Speaker 1: for gender equality versus the risk of homogeneity anytime we
Speaker 1: can flip the bias, it really makes such a difference,
Speaker 1: and so I think that's something that all companies have
Speaker 1: to learn, not only to recognize and acknowledge that bias
Speaker 1: exists within their workplace, but really learn how to interrupt
Speaker 1: that bias. So interesting and and really right on. So
Speaker 1: many companies are going through a bias training process, but
Speaker 1: it only goes so far. What else do we need
Speaker 1: to do to address bias when it comes to workplace policies?
Speaker 1: Because P and G has been in many ways very
Speaker 1: forward looking on these issues, what is it that you
Speaker 1: have found that can be done to address bias through
Speaker 1: workplace policies? For all of us as leaders in private industry,
Speaker 1: we have to set a higher standard for ourselves, and
Speaker 1: within workplace policies and practices, we have to reframe how
Speaker 1: we think about those. Again, if we go to the
Speaker 1: higher standard, we often think about workplace policies as we've
Speaker 1: got benefits that we must be competitive in. We have
Speaker 1: to look at the legal laws and the minimum requirements
Speaker 1: country by country, and we set that frame for our
Speaker 1: workplace policies. What we've tried to do within P and
Speaker 1: G is reframe that and think about not meeting this
Speaker 1: minimum standard of legal requirements or minimum standard of benchmark
Speaker 1: versus our competitive set, but rather what are those things
Speaker 1: that we have to think about as employment practices. And
Speaker 1: if you asked any of us as leaders for employment practices,
Speaker 1: we want to be best in class. I don't want
Speaker 1: to hire competitive leaders. I want the best leaders. I
Speaker 1: don't want to build policies and and individual and assignments
Speaker 1: that are pretty good. I want to build great experiences
Speaker 1: for my employees. So there's reframing from it's something I
Speaker 1: have to benchmark competitively or media legal standard is very
Speaker 1: different from framing it as I want best in class
Speaker 1: employment practices. And I think there's a couple that play
Speaker 1: into that. I think in terms of we call them
Speaker 1: equality based policies. It applies to parenting leave, it applies
Speaker 1: to pay equity. There's so many places that we can
Speaker 1: again set this higher standard and reframe something as a
Speaker 1: best in class employment practice. And I think as companies,
Speaker 1: we have the opportunity and the responsibility to set that standard. So, Caroline,
Speaker 1: there is such a need for more progressive parenting leaf policies,
Speaker 1: and yet there is something getting in the way of
Speaker 1: offering these progressive brant to leave policies. What is it
Speaker 1: that keeps companies, that keeps their society more generally, from
Speaker 1: moving in the right direction. One of the things that
Speaker 1: was interesting in the Gender Gap report this year from
Speaker 1: the World Economic Forum is that of the hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty three countries that were surveyed, there are no countries,
Speaker 1: literally zero countries where men do more of the unpaid
Speaker 1: care work at home and with family than women. In
Speaker 1: all of the hundred and fifty three countries, women do
Speaker 1: a disproportionate amount of that work. In the very best
Speaker 1: of those hundred and fifty three countries, the best, women
Speaker 1: do only two times more work than men. You know,
Speaker 1: it's still a very big issue that we have within
Speaker 1: our society that says women have a responsibility for home
Speaker 1: and family. What we believe at p AND is that
Speaker 1: both parents have a responsibility for home and family, both
Speaker 1: partners both supposes, and we have been very specific about
Speaker 1: setting a requirement not only for sufficient paid maternity leave,
Speaker 1: but for paternity leave as well. How do we make
Speaker 1: sure we offer both of those? If we only offer
Speaker 1: maternity leave, we somehow reinforce this myth that caring for
Speaker 1: home and family is only for women. If we offer
Speaker 1: maternity leave and paternity leave, we reinforce the reality that
Speaker 1: caring for home and for family has no gender. You know,
Speaker 1: we have paid paternity leave in every country in which
Speaker 1: we operate, and we see that as more men experience
Speaker 1: that opportunity to be with their children when they first
Speaker 1: come into the home, it makes such a difference not
Speaker 1: only to them in their family life, but also in
Speaker 1: our work environment. It creates an empathy for women who
Speaker 1: are going out on maternity leave in thinking about how
Speaker 1: do you plan the time that you're away, how do
Speaker 1: you think about re entering the workforce after you've been
Speaker 1: gone for an extended time period. These are all important
Speaker 1: things for both men and women to understand. Another thing
Speaker 1: that's really important is having the conversation with men to
Speaker 1: ensure that we set the expectation that they then take
Speaker 1: paternity leave. I don't say to an expectant mother, are
Speaker 1: you taking maternity leave? But many times I say to
Speaker 1: an expectant father, are you taking paternity leave? Why would
Speaker 1: I ask one and not the other. It's sets a
Speaker 1: different standard, so I should expect both would want to
Speaker 1: be part of bringing a new child into the home.
Speaker 1: And I should set the expectation that we expect them
Speaker 1: to take that time. We want to offer the support
Speaker 1: so that they can have that time, because we know
Speaker 1: children who grow up with two very invested and involved
Speaker 1: parents do better. It's really good for everybody. Carolin, you
Speaker 1: make so much sense, and this is such an enlightened
Speaker 1: view of what we need to be doing and why
Speaker 1: we need to be doing it. So what about pay equity?
Speaker 1: Pay quality is another one of those areas where companies,
Speaker 1: I think often overlook this larger picture that you just
Speaker 1: described when it comes to print a leaf policies. Do
Speaker 1: you see it the same way when it comes to
Speaker 1: pay quality policies? Yeah, really, we absolutely do. I mean,
Speaker 1: over the past few years, we've had several companies that
Speaker 1: have been heralded for identifying and fixing pay gaps between
Speaker 1: women and men in the same roles. And one could
Speaker 1: argue whether fixing a problem that shouldn't have been there
Speaker 1: in the first place is something that deserves celebration, But regardless,
Speaker 1: it's still only the first step. We have to ensure
Speaker 1: pay equity same roles for men and women as a
Speaker 1: minimum standard. And what if instead of being satisfied with
Speaker 1: fixing pay and equality. Business made fair pay the minimum
Speaker 1: standard and income equality or wealth equality the top priority.
Speaker 1: That would be a great standard for us to set.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned income equality in the same sentence that
Speaker 1: you mentioned pay equality. What is the difference between pay
Speaker 1: quality and income equality and how can companies begin to
Speaker 1: close the income gap as well? Well. The pay gap
Speaker 1: is the gap between how women and men are paid
Speaker 1: in similar positions, and that's easy to spot and easy
Speaker 1: to fix in organizations that are really committed to fair pay.
Speaker 1: For example, at p ANDNG, we do audits, and we
Speaker 1: look at audits for men and women, for people of color,
Speaker 1: for different levels and experiences, different time in role, people
Speaker 1: with different experience. We look at all kinds of different
Speaker 1: diagnostics really to ensure we don't have bias in our
Speaker 1: system that pays somebody differently than another for the same
Speaker 1: level of performance in the same work. So this is
Speaker 1: equal pay for equal work. You've got it exactly. The
Speaker 1: income gap is really the difference in total wages earned
Speaker 1: by women and men. So when more men than women
Speaker 1: hold more of the senior roles in an organization, there's
Speaker 1: an income gap, and and so that can be calculated
Speaker 1: by taking all of the men in an organization and
Speaker 1: getting their average salary, all of the women in an
Speaker 1: organization and getting that average salary. If women are disproportionately
Speaker 1: at more junior or entry roles in the company, that
Speaker 1: becomes a lower number than men who may have a
Speaker 1: disproportionate share of the roles at the very top of
Speaker 1: the company. So the income gap, or we call it
Speaker 1: a wealth gap, happens by virtue of disproportionate representation, and
Speaker 1: the only way to address that is really to get
Speaker 1: to fifty fifty representation at every level of the organization,
Speaker 1: including the c suite and frankly including the board of directors.
Speaker 1: So it's not enough to look at pay equality, but
Speaker 1: income equality is also important and companies need to be
Speaker 1: moving in making progress in both of these categories. So
Speaker 1: we started Caroline by talking about the World Economic Forums
Speaker 1: Gender Gap report, and the gap clearly is still cavernists
Speaker 1: in many ways. And I wonder what will it take
Speaker 1: to get to fifty fifty. Well, I think it takes.
Speaker 1: The word I like to use is intentionality. I think
Speaker 1: we have to be very intentional in what we do.
Speaker 1: I think for companies, it takes commitment, it takes accountability.
Speaker 1: But again many companies may have that without the intentional
Speaker 1: plans to address it. How do we think about giving
Speaker 1: women experiences that they need? How do I think about
Speaker 1: doing the simple math to determine how many roles I
Speaker 1: need to ensure that I advance women into in order
Speaker 1: to get to fifty fifty. It really requires a commitment
Speaker 1: from the top of the organization, talent planning and accountability
Speaker 1: throughout the organization, and again these plans, but it can
Speaker 1: be done. You know, at PNG, our CEO is a
Speaker 1: committed to this. He's visibly leading the work. We talk
Speaker 1: about this all the time. We are all held accountable
Speaker 1: to delivering our targets and ensuring we are creating the
Speaker 1: very best talent pool for PNG and for our future.
Speaker 1: Today of all of our managers are women, and we
Speaker 1: are on our way to forty eight percent. I think
Speaker 1: by the end of this year. That's up from fort
Speaker 1: when we started. And that's a broad base of employees
Speaker 1: at the very top of our organization. I'm very proud
Speaker 1: of this. Our global c suite, so the very top
Speaker 1: leaders in the company representation has gone from to four
Speaker 1: d percent, the major major jump, but again through intentionality,
Speaker 1: simple math, What are the numbers translating it to very
Speaker 1: specific numbers, developing plans? Who is the talent pool we're
Speaker 1: looking at, what are the experiences that they need? How
Speaker 1: do we get people in line to take on those roles?
Speaker 1: And very intentional planning accomplishes tremendous things. Our board of
Speaker 1: directors has gone from thirty women's representation to forty two.
Speaker 1: So progress is possible in a very short period of time,
Speaker 1: but we have to develop the very specific plans to
Speaker 1: get there. So Caroline, let's tease that out a little bit. Clearly,
Speaker 1: what you're talking about is leadership, commitment, and responsibility. So
Speaker 1: how did you make this progress? And perhaps more importantly,
Speaker 1: how can others learn from your approach? So we started
Speaker 1: very much with intentional talent planning, and as you know,
Speaker 1: and we've talked so many times, simple math. So let's
Speaker 1: say you have an organization of two hundred people, it's men,
Speaker 1: it's women. Typically we'd say I've got to double the
Speaker 1: percentage of women from to get to equal and to
Speaker 1: get to fifty fifty. Well, doubling the percentage of women
Speaker 1: sounds like wow, I've been a company in place for
Speaker 1: maybe decades. How do I double my population in a
Speaker 1: short period of time. It just sounds overwhelming, and so
Speaker 1: we might just accept that it would take that time
Speaker 1: unless we do the simple math. The simple math says,
Speaker 1: if I want to get to fifty fifty with an
Speaker 1: organization of two hundred people, I need fifty roles. I
Speaker 1: need fifty more women. I need a balance that fifty
Speaker 1: is the number that I have to develop plans for,
Speaker 1: and within those plans, I need assignment planning. I need
Speaker 1: to find the talent with the greatest potential men and women.
Speaker 1: I need great experiences for them. I need sponsorship for
Speaker 1: that top talent, and everywhere along the way. We have
Speaker 1: to be intentional, and we have to make sure that
Speaker 1: we're not falling into the bias that exists everywhere. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of times that we have said we really
Speaker 1: want to advance women, but we have to ensure they're
Speaker 1: qualified women well. In the company I'm part of, we
Speaker 1: have about representation at the entra level of our company.
Speaker 1: They go through the same qualifications, they go through the
Speaker 1: same criteria. So I've had equally qualified people coming into
Speaker 1: the company. What happens that they lose their qualification as
Speaker 1: they move up in the organization. The logic doesn't work.
Speaker 1: So I have to ensure that I test for that bias.
Speaker 1: I have to make sure that I'm looking at my
Speaker 1: talent holistically. I'm looking at all of the potential talent,
Speaker 1: giving all of that talent the opportunity for those great experiences,
Speaker 1: that great skill building, the opportunity to expand and build
Speaker 1: their leadership capability, so that I can get the very
Speaker 1: best talent in the organization all the way through. And
Speaker 1: in doing that, I'll get to fifty. I'm confident of it.
Speaker 1: You know, Caroline, as you talk, I hear the power
Speaker 1: of that word intention quity, because clearly that's what you're
Speaker 1: operating on. You You are really thinking about where you
Speaker 1: want to get and committed to getting there by having
Speaker 1: the proper intentionality, if you will, to achieve those goals. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I think there's a lesson in that for all
Speaker 1: of us. But there's another area where PNG is truly
Speaker 1: cutting edge, and I think that's the work that you're
Speaker 1: doing to change mindsets, which may be the hardest work
Speaker 1: there is to do in this space, because moving from bias,
Speaker 1: whether it's intentional bias or conscious bias, to unconscious bias
Speaker 1: it really means changing mindsets, seeing things differently, and you're
Speaker 1: doing so much of that through advertising. Tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about that, because it's just fascinating. Well, thanks
Speaker 1: for your tremendous compliments. And we know that advertising has
Speaker 1: the opportunity to shape how people see the world and
Speaker 1: it has the power to spark conversations that can change mindset.
Speaker 1: You know, we're the world's largest advertiser. We call it
Speaker 1: one of our superpowers because we have the opportunity then
Speaker 1: to really harness that superpower and change the world. And
Speaker 1: we really see that as the opportunity to be a
Speaker 1: force for good. But we all know advertising is also
Speaker 1: a force for growth. It's really important to build our brands,
Speaker 1: and so when it comes to tackling bias, when it
Speaker 1: comes to shaping mindset, we see advertising as a great
Speaker 1: tool in a vehicle, and we look for opportunities for
Speaker 1: our brands to speak out on issues that are important
Speaker 1: to them. When we do that, when we find an
Speaker 1: issue that really is important to our brand team and
Speaker 1: we can find a way to connect that in a
Speaker 1: way that's very authentic to the brand voice, authentic to
Speaker 1: what the brand does, how the brand works, then we
Speaker 1: really find a way to integrate that, and that's when
Speaker 1: we have really powerful messaging. So the work that our
Speaker 1: Secret team has been doing on pay equality, the work
Speaker 1: that they've done with the national women's soccer team donating
Speaker 1: half a million dollars to really ensure that players can
Speaker 1: get paid equally, the amplification of those voices of the
Speaker 1: National women's soccer team, the voices of strong independent women
Speaker 1: everywhere through Secrets All Strength, No Sweat campaign. We have
Speaker 1: great campaigns like Always for decades decades has really stood
Speaker 1: for how to really enable girls to thrive. One out
Speaker 1: of two girls loses confidence as they go through puberty,
Speaker 1: and so are Always Team launched their like a Girl
Speaker 1: campaign to really inspire girls to stand in their strength
Speaker 1: and their uniqueness and really feel amazing at all that
Speaker 1: they have to offer the world, and that campaign has
Speaker 1: run for many many years. Our aerial brand or Share
Speaker 1: the Load campaign is striving to redefine gender roles at home,
Speaker 1: and r s K two skincare brand is questioning stereotypes
Speaker 1: with changed Destiny. So there's so many examples. I'm so
Speaker 1: proud of all of our brand teams and they're doing
Speaker 1: amazing work worldwide. Uh, and frankly, many of these brand
Speaker 1: campaigns become some of our best advertising, our best opportunity
Speaker 1: to build our brands. Caroline, this is so exciting. When
Speaker 1: I said cutting edge, it's hard to really comprehend just
Speaker 1: how cutting edge this work is through advertising because we
Speaker 1: all look at those ads. The ads clearly are building brand,
Speaker 1: but they are also doing so much good for society
Speaker 1: and really changing mindsets along the way. With everything you
Speaker 1: have done and the company has purposefully done with this intentionality,
Speaker 1: we've been talking about what is your call to action
Speaker 1: for other business leaders? What can they learn? You've learned
Speaker 1: a lot about what makes the difference, and it would
Speaker 1: be really interesting to hear you as we can fluid
Speaker 1: this conversation about what other business leaders can learn from
Speaker 1: the PNG experience. Well, I'll start where you started that said,
Speaker 1: you know, two and fifty seven years to economic equality
Speaker 1: for women. I mean, that's simply unacceptable. We can do
Speaker 1: better than that. We must do better than that, and
Speaker 1: so reversing that and accelerating equality. It requires commitment at
Speaker 1: the very top. It requires intentionality and accountability throughout the
Speaker 1: organization and as companies and leaders. I believe that we're
Speaker 1: in a very unique position to make change. We don't
Speaker 1: have to wait for anyone in business. I don't have
Speaker 1: to wait for legislation. I don't have to wait for
Speaker 1: somebody to give me permission as a business leader, as CEOs,
Speaker 1: for businesses, for private sector, we have the ability to
Speaker 1: act now. So my ask for all of the business
Speaker 1: community and for private sector is go find your superpower.
Speaker 1: Go identify where you can make a unique impact. Find
Speaker 1: that place in your company, that part of your business model,
Speaker 1: that part of your strategy to reach consumers, that part
Speaker 1: of your workplace environment where you believe you can have
Speaker 1: the greatest impact, and then commit to it, do it,
Speaker 1: and then importantly start now. We as Seneca women talk
Speaker 1: a lot about power and purpose. You are an example
Speaker 1: of using your power and the company as a whole
Speaker 1: using its power for the kind of purpose we've been
Speaker 1: discussing here in Davos. I hope you keep going in
Speaker 1: this space because you are leading by example, and I
Speaker 1: can't thank you enough for your leadership, for your commitment,
Speaker 1: for the purposeful way that you go forward every day
Speaker 1: in leading the way. So thank you so much, Caroline.
Speaker 1: Thank you, and the same to you and all of
Speaker 1: the work you do with Seneca women. We are old
Speaker 1: to work with you. You inspire us all every day.
Speaker 1: Thanks Carolin, stay tuned for our takeaways after this break.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Carol and tastad.
Speaker 1: To learn more about PNG's work in this space, go
Speaker 1: to PG dot com slash gender equality our top takeaways. First,
Speaker 1: to solve gender inequality, we don't need to fix the women.
Speaker 1: We need to fix the system. As Caroline says, it's
Speaker 1: time to challenge the false narratives about women, to debunk
Speaker 1: the notion that they lack ambition or confidence. Women lead
Speaker 1: differently than men, and that's okay. Second, try a simple
Speaker 1: technique that can help you see things in a whole
Speaker 1: new light. When you hear or read a statement, substitute
Speaker 1: he for sheet or vice versa. An example, when she
Speaker 1: looks her best, she can do her best. Now try
Speaker 1: when he looks his best, he can do his best.
Speaker 1: Sounds silly when you change that heat to a sheet,
Speaker 1: doesn't it flip the pronoun says Caroline, and you'll flip
Speaker 1: the bias. Lastly, the World Economic Forum estimates will have
Speaker 1: to wait over two hundred years to attain economic gender equality.
Speaker 1: And we just can't wait that long. Companies can help
Speaker 1: close the income gap by ensuring that women have representation
Speaker 1: at every level, including the c suite and the boardroom.
Speaker 1: How to get there, According to Caroline, the best tool
Speaker 1: is the power of intentionality accompanied by commitment and accountability.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose,
Speaker 1: brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and
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