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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: He's just one of these lost souls now in Malawi

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Speaker 2: whose life was made even worse because of his involvement

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Speaker 2: with a place and with people who are supposed to

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Speaker 2: help him.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. I've never interviewed someone about

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Speaker 1: wildlife trafficking, but journalist Rachel Knewer's story for The Economist

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Speaker 1: was so compelling that I wanted to explore it. It's

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Speaker 1: about an orphanage in Africa where kids are used as

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Speaker 1: foot soldiers in any illegal animal and ivory smuggling operation.

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Speaker 1: Rachel's article is called the School for Wildlife Traffickers. Let's

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Speaker 1: get started with how you found this story. I know

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Speaker 1: that you've already written a book you know, about poaching,

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Speaker 1: but tell me I specifically got into this story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So I've been reporting on wildlife issues, specifically illegal

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Speaker 2: wildlife trade for oh my gosh, fifteen plus years now.

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Speaker 2: So I just have a lot of sources that I've

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Speaker 2: cultivated over the year and built trust with. I first

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Speaker 2: heard about this particular story when I was reporting for

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Speaker 2: The New York Times about the prosecution of an ivory

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Speaker 2: and rhino horn kingpin in Southern Africa named Yon Hua Lin.

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Speaker 2: He's a Chinese national who was living in Malawi, and

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Speaker 2: at that time I had heard sort of whispers that

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Speaker 2: there was a bigger story here that potentially involved an orphanage.

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Speaker 2: At the time, I just didn't have the bandwidth to

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Speaker 2: look into it. There wasn't really enough there. But I

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Speaker 2: sort of put a pin in it in my mind

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Speaker 2: and thought, Okay, you know, that's going to be interesting

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Speaker 2: to come back to if opportunity presents itself.

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Speaker 1: This is quite a story. It's surprising to me. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about poaching or the wildlife

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Speaker 1: trade or anything like that in Africa, But the way

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Speaker 1: it integrated with children at this particular orphanage, it's just

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Speaker 1: like something in a movie. It sounds like a Hollywood movie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I wish it was a movie rather

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Speaker 2: than real life because I mean, just know, it's horrific

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Speaker 2: enough thinking about what people are doing to animals, let

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Speaker 2: alone the exploitation that these most vulnerable children in Malawi

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Speaker 2: have undergone as a result of these traffickers.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, why don't we start with Malawi and you

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Speaker 1: can kind of set the scene there and just sort

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Speaker 1: of briefly what the government's like where everything stands. I

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Speaker 1: have to say, I was shocked about the business from

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Speaker 1: China coming to well, starting with Taiwan and then you know,

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Speaker 1: moving to China in Malawi. So do you want to

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Speaker 1: kind of set the scene for what that's like.

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Speaker 2: Malawi is a pretty small nation in southern Africa. It's

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Speaker 2: terribly terribly poor. I mean, driving around there there, you

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Speaker 2: don't really see any trees because all of the trees

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Speaker 2: have been cut down to make charcoal and just to

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Speaker 2: try to you know, make any sort of living and survive.

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Speaker 2: Very impoverished. It is a democracy, so there's a president

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Speaker 2: who's elected. But it's also a country that is extremely

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Speaker 2: high on corruption, and you know, there's been attempts to

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Speaker 2: cut back on that here and there, but ultimately it's

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Speaker 2: a place that where if you have them to pay

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Speaker 2: for something, you can really buy your way out of anything.

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Speaker 2: You know, justice is something purchasable. You can bribe police officers,

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Speaker 2: you can bribe judges. And this is the situation that

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Speaker 2: foreign nationals, especially Chinese traffickers, have really started to exploit

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Speaker 2: over the last fifteen years or so. And this guy

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Speaker 2: that I mentioned earlier who was prosecuted, Yanhua lin He

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Speaker 2: was from Fujian Province and he was a pretty successful

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Speaker 2: businessman when he was over there. But he had some

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Speaker 2: buddies over in Malawi who were ivory traders working also

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Speaker 2: with local Malawians. They were Taiwanese, they were Chinese, and

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Speaker 2: they said, hey, Lynn, you know, come over, there's lots

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Speaker 2: of business opportunities for you here. And so Linn did.

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Speaker 2: He followed their advice. He moved to Malawi and he

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Speaker 2: started setting up his own empire, working with ivory, rhinohorns,

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Speaker 2: Penglin scales. Those are little creatures also called scaly anteaters,

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Speaker 2: really anything he could make a buck off of. And

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Speaker 2: it wasn't just wildlife that Linn was involved with. He

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Speaker 2: had his hand in legal and illegal logging, in mining,

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Speaker 2: in developments. You know, he's a real entrepreneur, like a

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Speaker 2: lot of these wildlife criminals that we see coming to

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Speaker 2: Africa from China.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the rules in Africa as far as

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Speaker 1: you know, what can be used from wildlife? Can anything

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Speaker 1: be used?

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Speaker 2: Well, Lowie has really strict laws for wildlife use. They

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Speaker 2: have a really you know, on paper, the legal system

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Speaker 2: is great trade of ivory, rhino horn, panglin skills, that

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Speaker 2: is strictly banned hunting of those species as well. So

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Speaker 2: everything he Linn was doing with regard to wildlife was

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Speaker 2: completely illegal. Now the issue, of course is whether those

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Speaker 2: laws are actually enforced, which for years they were not.

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Speaker 1: So you know, at its just base level. Tell me

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Speaker 1: about what happens with these animals, with the rhino horns

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Speaker 1: and with elephants. Do these animals have to die? What

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Speaker 1: happens to be able to take this stuff from them

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Speaker 1: to sell for a tremendous amount of money.

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Speaker 2: Great question. So, just to back up for a second,

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Speaker 2: wildlife trade is a multi billion dollar international enterprise. In

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Speaker 2: terms of the illegal part of that trade, it's ranked

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Speaker 2: only behind drugs and arms for profitability. And you know,

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Speaker 2: we hear a lot about things like elephants and rhinos

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Speaker 2: and tigers and the news, but this is illegal enterprise

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Speaker 2: that affects thousands of species, and it's really any species

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Speaker 2: that someone can make some money off of is exploited.

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Speaker 2: And you know, this can be things as small as

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Speaker 2: like seahorses or soft shelled turtles, but then up to

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Speaker 2: you know, your your rhinos and your elephants. So the

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Speaker 2: uses for these species are almost as variable as the

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Speaker 2: species themselves. So it really runs the gamut of exotic

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Speaker 2: pets to furs that people wear. In terms of rhinohorn,

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Speaker 2: it's really Chinese traditional medicine. So rhinohorn is what's known

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Speaker 2: as a cooling agent. It's something that a grandma would,

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Speaker 2: for example, give to her grandchild to bring their fever down,

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Speaker 2: even though scientifically there's been no efficacy proven for that use.

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Speaker 2: In Vietnam especially, it's also become a status symbol. So

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Speaker 2: if you're a wealthy businessman and you want to show

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Speaker 2: off to your friends at a party, you bring your

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Speaker 2: rhino horn along with you, and you grind a little

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Speaker 2: bit of that horn up and you mix it with

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Speaker 2: some water and you take it as a shot, and

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Speaker 2: it's supposed to prevent you from having a hangover the

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Speaker 2: next day. Of course, it does not work for that. Ivory,

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Speaker 2: on the other hand, is a desired for its beauty.

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Speaker 2: It's long been carved in China and other Asian countries

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Speaker 2: and other countries around the world. Indeed for decorations for jewelry,

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Speaker 2: still sought after for that just as a status symbol.

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Speaker 2: Hanglin scales, another thing that Linn dealt with, are also

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Speaker 2: highly sought after for traditional Chinese medicine, and the meat

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Speaker 2: of pangolins is also considered a delicacy. So there's evidence

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Speaker 2: that Linn would keep live panglins at his house, for example,

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Speaker 2: in Malawi, and sell them to local Chinese restaurants where

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Speaker 2: they would be served to patrons who paid top dollar

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Speaker 2: for them.

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Speaker 1: So these products, and I mean they're animals, but these

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Speaker 1: the ivory and the rhino horns and the penglon, So

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Speaker 1: are those mostly going to Chinese buyers or are these

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Speaker 1: shipped all over the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So China is the largest consumer of wildlife products

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Speaker 2: in the world, and that's really just a It's a

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Speaker 2: function of two things.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: For one, China is a huge country, so if even

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Speaker 2: a small part of the populace wants these things, that's

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Speaker 2: tremendous demand. There's also a deep history of wildlife being

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Speaker 2: used as medicinal products and as food. So in China

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Speaker 2: there's a saying that medicine and food are the same.

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Speaker 2: So you eat a snake, for example, if you have arthritis,

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Speaker 2: because you know snakes are twisty, so it'll hopefully make

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Speaker 2: your hands feel better. You had a tiger or drink

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Speaker 2: wine brewed from tiger bone wine to increase your might,

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Speaker 2: especially if you're a man and your virility. So China

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Speaker 2: is really a driver of demand. Vietnam is up there

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Speaker 2: as well, but truly, wildlife trade is an issue that

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Speaker 2: affects virtually every country on Earth. I mean, the United

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Speaker 2: States is a huge center for demand as well, for

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Speaker 2: exotic pets and things like this. But for the purpose

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Speaker 2: of our story today, I think it's easy to focus

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Speaker 2: on China.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me about the orphanages. I think you've

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Speaker 1: said that there are many of them, right, especially in Malawi.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So in the nineteen nineties, a monk from Taiwan

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Speaker 2: moved to South Africa to create the first Buddhist temple

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Speaker 2: on the entire continent, and he had aspirations to become

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Speaker 2: the father of Buddhism of Africa. He said that he

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Speaker 2: wants to be reincarnated as an African so he can

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Speaker 2: become like the first black Buddha. Essentially, in trying to

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Speaker 2: convert people in South Africa, he learned the hard lesson

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Speaker 2: that it's really difficult to get adults to convert to

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Speaker 2: your religion. He thought, okay, it would be easier to

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Speaker 2: get children, so partly to further that goal, he founded

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Speaker 2: a series of orphanages called Ami Tofo and I can't

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Speaker 2: remember the exact number. There's over half a dozen of them.

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Speaker 2: They're scattered throughout various countries in Southern Africa. The first

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Speaker 2: was in South Africa, but Malawi, where my investigation focused,

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Speaker 2: has two of these orphanages. One is in Lilongwe, which

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Speaker 2: is the capital of the country, and one is in Blantire,

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Speaker 2: which is the country sort of economics center. So there

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Speaker 2: are two of these centers in Malawi and they recruit

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Speaker 2: pretty much the most vulnerable children in the country. I

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Speaker 2: mean orphans, yes, but also children who are coming from

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Speaker 2: single parent households or households that are too impoverished to

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Speaker 2: support them anymore. And they take these children in with

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Speaker 2: the promise of giving them a quality education, setting them

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Speaker 2: up for a life of success, ensuring that they can

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Speaker 2: be the future that their country needs to just build

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Speaker 2: a stronger outlook. So the kids who go into these

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Speaker 2: orphanages are given an education like the normal things like

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Speaker 2: math or English, but they are also taught Mandarin, and

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Speaker 2: they have mandatory Buddhist prayer every day and kung Fu

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Speaker 2: lessons and other just ways of initiating them into Chinese culture.

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Speaker 2: And I say Chinese because Malawi, like many, if not all,

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Speaker 2: African countries at this point, cut ties with Taiwan in

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Speaker 2: order to curry favor with China. So as that happened,

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Speaker 2: a lot of the Taiwanese staff at these orphanages had

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Speaker 2: to be let go. Oh and they increasingly began recruiting

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Speaker 2: Chinese staff to help train these children.

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Speaker 1: So at the beginning these orphanages that were started by

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Speaker 1: you know, Taiwanese monk, this was not altruistic, but this

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Speaker 1: was this was not meant for trafficking obviously, absolutely not. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: shifted dramatically when the Chinese came.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good point you raised, and it's

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Speaker 2: one that I'd like to emphasize as well. It's it's

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Speaker 2: not that these orphanages at all were set up as

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Speaker 2: some kind of nefarious scheme. I mean, we can think

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Speaker 2: of them similarly to how Christian missionaries go in and

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Speaker 2: build a school. There's a little bit of quid pro

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Speaker 2: quo there. It's Okay, we're bringing you this goodwill, and

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Speaker 2: we also want to introduce you to our way of thinking.

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Speaker 2: And this the monk that I mentioned, he knew that

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Speaker 2: he wasn't going to convert every child. His idea was, Okay,

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Speaker 2: if I can get just a few who really get

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Speaker 2: it and believe, then that's a great start. So it

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Speaker 2: really did start as a more altruistic program, you know,

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Speaker 2: with children's best interest in mind. But I think over

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Speaker 2: the past twenty years, yeah, it's been infiltrated by bad

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Speaker 2: actors and eventually, as I found by this guy Jan

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Speaker 2: Hua Lin, this wildlife trafficking kingpin.

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Speaker 1: So you know, just a couple more questions about the

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Speaker 1: operation of the orphanage so how many kids were we

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Speaker 1: talking about? And I know it fluctuated from the time

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Speaker 1: it started until you know your investigation. Also, how many

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Speaker 1: children are we talking about? And also I'm curious about

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Speaker 1: how the people of Malawi were viewing this as the

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Speaker 1: years are going on. Are they supportive and think, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean my kids are getting an education or is

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Speaker 1: this a mostly Christian country or you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: give me that aspect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Malawi is very Christian. So the missionaries who came

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Speaker 2: before the Buddhist did a really good job of converting everyone.

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Speaker 2: So people are very Christian there. Oh and sorry, let

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Speaker 2: me back up. The orphanages themselves are extremely secretive. You

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Speaker 2: would think that nonprofit groups like this would welcome people

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Speaker 2: to visit, but they are like locked down. There's bit

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Speaker 2: there's these huge like brick gates around them. There's signs

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Speaker 2: about trespassers being prosecuted. I know that the Orphanage in

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Speaker 2: Blantyre has four hundred and fifty students. I think the

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Speaker 2: Orphanage in Li Longway has even more, but I can't

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Speaker 2: say for certain because I didn't get to interview anyone there.

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Speaker 2: In terms of how communities feel, because yeah, these orphanages

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Speaker 2: are taking up huge amounts of land, so the one

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Speaker 2: in La long Way, the capital. I interviewed two village

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Speaker 2: chiefs who live in the village surrounding it, and they

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Speaker 2: really were not fans of the Chinese. They essentially said

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Speaker 2: that their land had been stolen to make way for

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Speaker 2: this orphanage. Lynn, by the way, happens to have a

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Speaker 2: farm butting up against the orphanage, so we think that

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Speaker 2: that's how he perhaps became entangled with them. To begin with,

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Speaker 2: he was their neighbor. So Lynn wound up buying up

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Speaker 2: a bunch of land or taking it from villagers selling

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Speaker 2: it to the orphanage. The village had say, you know,

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Speaker 2: the Chinese are basically thieves and lie. They came in

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Speaker 2: promising all these good things like, oh, we're gonna give

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Speaker 2: you jobs, We're gonna invest into the community. None of

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Speaker 2: that has happened, according to these village chiefs. I've also

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Speaker 2: heard from staff working at these orphanages, black staff, that

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Speaker 2: their Chinese bosses treat them terribly. They call them all

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Speaker 2: sorts of names. They have no power to speak up

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Speaker 2: for themselves, let alone the students. In terms of the students,

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Speaker 2: I spoke to these are graduates, people who are now

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Speaker 2: in their twenties. They said that when they first had

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Speaker 2: the opportunity to go to the orphanage, they were very excited.

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Speaker 2: They thought, Okay, this is our ticket to success, where

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Speaker 2: you're like, this is our chance to be lifted up

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Speaker 2: out of poverty and to make something of our lives.

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Speaker 2: But very quickly after they arrived, they realized that was

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Speaker 2: not the case. I had several of them tell me

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Speaker 2: that their lives at the orphanage were actually worse than

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Speaker 2: they were outside of the orphanage. That they would have

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Speaker 2: rather stayed on the street or stayed in their impoverished

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Speaker 2: home than be taken into the care of these these orphanages,

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Speaker 2: which is just really heartbreaking and speaks to how far

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Speaker 2: from the original hope these facilities have come.

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Speaker 1: Now. It goes beyond that, right, there's physical is it

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Speaker 1: physical and emotional abuse? I know that we've talked about

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Speaker 1: name calling and stuff, but kind of what are the

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Speaker 1: depths of the abuse other than forcing these kids to

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Speaker 1: be traffickers?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So children or they aren't children now? Twenty year

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Speaker 2: olds who used to be children at these orphanages told

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Speaker 2: me about all kinds of abuse. I didn't get to

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Speaker 2: speak to any women, but I'd heard secondhand from former

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Speaker 2: students and staff current staff that some of the girls

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Speaker 2: there are raped by their instructors, sexually harassed and molested

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Speaker 2: by them. The boys especially are subject to physical discipline,

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Speaker 2: so if they're even a minute late to Buddhist prayers

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Speaker 2: at the crack of dawn, they're forced to kneel with

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Speaker 2: their hands above their head for an hour, sometimes while

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Speaker 2: the monks will hit them with sticks if they make

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Speaker 2: even the smallest mistake. In kung fu, they're whipped with

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Speaker 2: sticks as well. I spoke with one student former student

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Speaker 2: who told me that his leg had been fractured because

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Speaker 2: he was beaten so badly by one of the Malawian

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Speaker 2: staff members and was then denied care for over a month,

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Speaker 2: during which he was literally dragging himself around to have

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Speaker 2: to go to the bathroom and feed himself. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: just horrific physical abuse, you know, not to mention emotional abuse.

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Speaker 2: They told me that they would be told things like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you're an orphan, you have no power, you can't speak up.

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Speaker 2: One former student was actually suspended from the orphanage when

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Speaker 2: he tried to speak out about the conditions there. A

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Speaker 2: politician had come to visit the orphanage, and he managed

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Speaker 2: to get time alone with her and told her, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're suffering, we're being forced to pray to a god

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Speaker 2: that we don't believe in. We're being abused. And she

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Speaker 2: told him she would do something about it. But in fact,

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Speaker 2: this is a politician who seems to be in cahoots

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Speaker 2: with the orphanage. And she just turned right around, apparently

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Speaker 2: and told the staff what happened. And he got kicked

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Speaker 2: out days later because he was told he had revealed

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Speaker 2: their secrets.

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Speaker 1: So you open the piece for the Economist with just

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Speaker 1: a gripping story, an amazing story about a boy named

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Speaker 1: Francis who's at the orphanage. Will you kind of set

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Speaker 1: that up for us and tell us, you know, and

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Speaker 1: also why you started with this story? What does it

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Speaker 1: mean to you?

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Speaker 2: Francis. I met him twice while I was in Malawi,

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Speaker 2: and I was really taken by you know, he's in

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Speaker 2: his twenties now, this happened to him when he was

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Speaker 2: a late teenager. But just how thoughtful he was, but

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Speaker 2: also how just sort of deeply crushed and broken he

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Speaker 2: seemed to be. He seemed to be just resigned to

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Speaker 2: the fact that his life is not going to go

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Speaker 2: anywhere because of his entanglement with this orphanage. This is

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Speaker 2: a man who wanted as a child to work in

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Speaker 2: healthcare because he said he loves to help people. He

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Speaker 2: thought the orphanage would be a stepping stone to get

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Speaker 2: him there. It wasn't, and the reason it wasn't primarily

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Speaker 2: is because of something that happened to him. On a

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Speaker 2: Saturday morning a few years ago. He was playing football

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Speaker 2: with his friends and someone told him that the head

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Speaker 2: of HR wanted to see him. Okay, so he goes

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Speaker 2: to this guy's office and he says, Hey, I need

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Speaker 2: you to do something for me. I need you to

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Speaker 2: take the bus to a village a few hours away

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Speaker 2: and collect a parcel for me and I'll pay you,

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Speaker 2: you know, about twenty dollars for this, which is a

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Speaker 2: huge amount of money in Malawi, more than most people

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Speaker 2: earn in a week. And this was a really weird request,

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Speaker 2: Like normally the children at these facilities aren't allowed to

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Speaker 2: eat so much as leave much less, you know, go

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Speaker 2: on errands that are paid for. But Francis felt like, okay,

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Speaker 2: I can't say no, and you know he also wanted

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Speaker 2: the money, and before he left, the HR guy said, oh,

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Speaker 2: by the way, if the police stop the van, which

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Speaker 2: is a common thing in Malawi, there's all these police

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Speaker 2: checks just to make sure nothing fishes going on, tell

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Speaker 2: the police that you're looking for work. Don't tell them

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Speaker 2: you're picking up a parcel, which you know set off

355
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Speaker 2: alarm bells for Francis. But he's like, okay, well, you

356
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Speaker 2: know whatever, I just have to do this thing.

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Speaker 1: So he did it.

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Speaker 2: He got this package from a guesthouse. A few men

359
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 2: were there, handed it over to him and told him

360
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Speaker 2: not to open it. He brought it back, he was paid.

361
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Speaker 2: He thought that would be the end of the story. Well,

362
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Speaker 2: a few weeks later, the HR guy asks him to

363
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Speaker 2: do the same thing again. So again he makes this journey.

364
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Speaker 2: He gets the package, but this time he overhears the

365
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Speaker 2: guy saying something about wildlife, and he's getting really nervous

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Speaker 2: about it. So on the bus ride back, he tore

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Speaker 2: open a little corner of the package and lo and

368
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Speaker 2: behold he saw ivory inside, and you know, his stomach

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Speaker 2: just sank. He was like, oh gosh, you know, I

370
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Speaker 2: cannot get involved in this. He'd seen news stories about

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Speaker 2: people getting put in prison for years and years for

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Speaker 2: trafficking in ivory. So he decided right then and there

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Speaker 2: that he would deliver this package and then he would

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Speaker 2: get out. And this ivory thing didn't come completely like

375
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Speaker 2: out of nowhere for Francis, because he had heard about

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Speaker 2: other students from the orphanage getting recruited to become wildlife traffickers.

377
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Speaker 2: This was kind of well known among the students there

378
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Speaker 2: that you know, certain select kids would be chosen and

379
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Speaker 2: groomed into this role and then they'd go on to

380
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 2: make a bunch of money. You know, they'd have their

381
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Speaker 2: own car, they'd get to have like flashy clothes, things

382
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Speaker 2: that normally a student who graduates from these orphanages would

383
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Speaker 2: never be able to afford or do you know. So

384
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Speaker 2: Francis knew that that opportunity was there for him, that

385
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Speaker 2: this was sort of a test to see if he

386
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Speaker 2: wanted to be one of those initiates, but he chose

387
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Speaker 2: not to do that. He did not want a life

388
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Speaker 2: of crime. He did not want to wind up in prison.

389
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Speaker 2: He did not want to risk his future. So after

390
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Speaker 2: he delivered that second package, he quietly packed his stuff

391
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Speaker 2: and he snuck out of the orphanage, never to return

392
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Speaker 2: and today you know when I met home, he has

393
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Speaker 2: no job, he said. Sometimes he goes literally a day

394
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Speaker 2: without eating anything. He doesn't have a house. He bounces

395
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Speaker 2: around place to place, and nobody wants to give him

396
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 2: a chance because he doesn't have a diploma and he

397
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 2: doesn't have any real skills. So he's just one of

398
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 2: these lost souls now in Malawi whose life was made

399
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 2: even worse because of his involvement with a place and

400
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Speaker 2: with people who are supposed to help him.

401
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Speaker 1: Now, there is an interesting quote from an expert you

402
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 1: have in there fairly early on, and she says, people

403
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: call it brainwashing, but I call it grooming, I think,

404
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 1: is what she says.

405
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Speaker 2: Is that right? Yes?

406
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Speaker 1: What's the difference? What do you think the differences? And

407
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 1: do you agree with that?

408
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I don't think the kids were brainwashed.

409
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Speaker 2: I mean I think brainwashed is you know, talking to

410
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Speaker 2: someone over and over and telling them, you know, this

411
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 2: is the way it is. I think it was more.

412
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: It's more a gradual situation in terms of the wildlife

413
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 2: trade stuff, where kids are kind of tested to see

414
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Speaker 2: if they would be trustworthy, to see if they would

415
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 2: be good at this in the way that Francis was.

416
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 2: The grooming comes in in terms of sort of their

417
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: indoctrination into Chinese culture. So you know, these are kids

418
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 2: who speak both the local language and now also Mandarin.

419
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: They're trained in Mandarin, so they're perfect go betweens. You know,

420
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 2: they've also been indoctrinated into Chinese culture. They're used to

421
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 2: how the Chinese do things because of all their schooling

422
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,479
Speaker 2: with their teachers. In terms of the ones who are

423
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 2: selected and groomed, they're given small opportunities at first, and

424
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 2: slowly those opportunities are built up with greater and greater

425
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 2: rewards monetary and also just security wise. You know, they're

426
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 2: taken into the fold of this this criminal organization with

427
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: great power, and you know, as they become trusted members

428
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 2: of this group, they too, in a way become untouchable

429
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 2: and above the law. And you know, that's got to

430
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:49,959
Speaker 2: be really enticing for kids who otherwise really have no option,

431
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 2: no future, nothing.

432
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: It sounds a little bit like in America, and of

433
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: course in other countries too, kids who don't have a

434
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,959
Speaker 1: lot of options, who live, you know, in rough areas

435
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 1: in the city, getting picked up by drug dealers and

436
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: recruited that way. Is that a good analogy?

437
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 2: One hundred percent? Yeah, I think that's a great analogy.

438
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 2: It's just it's people with power preying on the weakest

439
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 2: and the vulnerable among us and getting away with it.

440
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: Did we have a reaction? Did you find any kind

441
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: of reaction from the parents of some of these kids

442
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: who were recruited, or I don't know if you were

443
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: able to talk to Francis's family. I'm just wondering what

444
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: from from, you know, their point of view, Francis is

445
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 1: showing up with twenty bucks when that seems impossible, he

446
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: must be doing something wrong.

447
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, well, remember a lot of them are orphans.

448
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 2: You know, Francis's parents are dead. There's another guy who

449
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 2: really became like the right hand man of Lynn, a

450
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 2: student as well, who graduated a few years before Francis.

451
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 2: His parents were dead. He was a street kid, you know. Yeah,

452
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 2: I didn't talk to any of the still living parents.

453
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 2: I just get the feeling that a lot of these

454
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 2: kids don't really have a lot of contact with their

455
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 2: parents anymore, or or you know, I mean, what are

456
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 2: their parents going to do? They also have no money.

457
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 2: They're oftentimes single moms for example, you know, they're just

458
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: struggling to get to survive and get by as well.

459
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: And again, this is a criminal organization who has so

460
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 2: much power it's hard to overstate. You know. They Lynn

461
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 2: literally used to use the car of the chief of

462
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 2: police to drive around city the town so he wouldn't

463
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 2: get stopped. So you know, what are you going to

464
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 2: do about it? If that's the situation there, You're just

465
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 2: you don't have any options.

466
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 1: I also wonder a little bit. You know, this is

467
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: different than obviously the illegal drugs in the United States.

468
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: If there ever was away with an older kid like

469
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: Francis where you could have you know, the traffickers say

470
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: this is medicine. This is you know, some of the

471
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: stuff that you're you're collecting is actually save lives or

472
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: make people feel better, because that was the belief with

473
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,959
Speaker 1: at least some of this stuff. I'm just wondering if

474
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: there's any swim of justification that in the kids' heads

475
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: they can even though they know it's illegal, you know,

476
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 1: but probably money speaks more than anything.

477
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: So I only got to talk to one former AMITOFO

478
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 2: student who really got involved in wildlife trafficking. I visited

479
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: a prison in a town called Zomba to meet him.

480
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 2: That was like a whole interesting experience unto itself. His

481
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 2: name is Aaron Dyson, and he was this right hand

482
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,239
Speaker 2: guy that I mentioned before. He was one of what

483
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 2: everyone calls Lynn's boys, so the really select few that

484
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 2: Lynn led into his inner circle and trusted with everything.

485
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 2: And I asked Aaron Dyson about that, you know, why'd

486
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 2: you do it? And he really was just like, it's

487
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 2: just money. It's just business, Like I don't care, like

488
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 2: I don't feel bad for the animals. It's just a

489
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 2: way to make money. So I don't think there was

490
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: any need to justify what they were doing. It was

491
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 2: really just sheer, you know, greed, also desire to survive,

492
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 2: to make it to you know, like like any of us,

493
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: you know, you want to get ahead. And this was

494
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: an opportunity that some students were given and that some

495
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 2: students chose to seize.

496
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,239
Speaker 1: It's interesting I've let you know, I've asked you these

497
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: two questions that I think have been pretty far off

498
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 1: as far as like the parents and justification. And it's

499
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: just because I cannot put myself in that situation. It's

500
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: such a foreign world, it is, and to be abused

501
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: and to have no adult as an advocate at all.

502
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: I guess I just kept thinking, I don't know why

503
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: I ask those two questions. They should be obvious, but

504
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: I think it is. It's just so off the chart.

505
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 2: I think it's impossible for people like us to even

506
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: put ourselves in that mindset. It's you know, we can't like, yeah,

507
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 2: you know, we grew up with support and these kids

508
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: just have nothing. It does kind of remind me. This

509
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 2: didn't make it to the story, but I got into

510
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 2: one of these orphanages undercover, and they thought that I

511
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: was someone representing potential donors, which, to be honest, I

512
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: felt a little guilty about, Like I don't like to

513
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 2: deceive people unless they're worth deceiving, let's say. And they

514
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: introduced me to a teacher at the school, and I mean,

515
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: obviously her job was to like butter me up and

516
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: try to get donations out of me. But she was

517
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: I could tell she was so sincere. She was Malawian.

518
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: She said, you know, I could make a lot more

519
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 2: money like teaching at a different school, like a government school.

520
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 2: You know, this job is so hard because it's just

521
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 2: so much more demanding, because the kids don't have anybody

522
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: but us teachers. But at the same time, that was

523
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: the reason she stayed. She said, they literally don't have

524
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,479
Speaker 2: anyone and that's really hard on us, but she felt

525
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: like she had to stay for them, that they were

526
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 2: depending on her. She was the only adult in their

527
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 2: life really, and a few of the other teachers like

528
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: looking out for them. So I was really touched by

529
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: what she had to say, and it reminded me that,

530
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: you know, the orphanages aren't all bad. They're not completely rotten.

531
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 2: It's just like they've been infiltrated by some bad apples.

532
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 2: But they could do so much good if only good

533
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 2: management could be put in place and that rot could

534
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 2: be extracted and the good could be applified.

535
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: Now, I know this wasn't your first time going undercover

536
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: with you know, wildlife trafficking. I know from your book Poach,

537
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: you know that you had done that too. Can you

538
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: just tell me, just really briefly about that process. I mean,

539
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: how does one infiltrate that sort of a not even

540
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: an organization, but just you know, with the orphanage getting in,

541
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,959
Speaker 1: they don't just let anybody in. You have to know people,

542
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: right who can vouch for you.

543
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: Definitely, there's zero chance I would have made it into

544
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 2: that orphanage on my own. Fortunately, I was working with

545
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: an investigator. He goes by the code name Jack Anderson.

546
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: He's also done a lot of work for the US government,

547
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: so he's a real pro. Like he he mostly does

548
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 2: drug stuff. So for him, wildlife trafficking cases are sort

549
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 2: of like ad a vacation, but a relief because the

550
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: stakes tend to me much lower because governments and criminals

551
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: tend to take the crime less serious because it's wildlife. Anyway,

552
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 2: Jack Anderson had already done groundwork with this orphanage. He

553
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: had met the HR guy who sent France on his

554
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: ivory collecting mission, and really buttered this guy up, taking

555
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: him out to lunch, representing himself as someone who works

556
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 2: for wealthy sheikhs in Dubai who were looking for nonprofit

557
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 2: groups to fund so they could get tax breaks. So

558
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: Jack Anderson had actually even made some donations to the orphanage,

559
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: not monetary, but you know, he'd given them like a

560
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: fax machine and some uniforms for the kids. So he

561
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: had earned this HR guy's trust, and then he said, Hey,

562
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 2: one of my friends from Dubai is here. She's a socialite,

563
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: she knows a lot of rich people, you know, can

564
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 2: I bring her along? And because he had already established

565
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: this relationship, the answer was, oh, sure, of course, yeah,

566
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: bring her along. So that was my role. It was funny.

567
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 2: I did not have clothes to be a socialite, which

568
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 2: I was very concerned about, and they were like, do

569
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: not worry about it. No one here knows what a

570
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: Dubai socialite would look like.

571
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: That's what I was wondering. I mean, would they recognize it.

572
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: No. I was very yeah, very shabby social lite. But

573
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: it worked.

574
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: So tell me about what what did you learn on

575
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: that visit? You were able to physically see thing, you know,

576
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: you were seeing things in person. What did you feel

577
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: like you picked up that was really helpful in the story?

578
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean just seeing it. Like you said, I

579
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: think it's so crucial because, as we talked about earlier,

580
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 2: it's really hard to imagine things without seeing them, especially

581
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: things that are so foreign. You know. I had my

582
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: own conceptions of what the orphanage would be like, but

583
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: to actually be on the ground and get to witness

584
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: at firsthand really brought a few things into relief for me.

585
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: One of those things was just how sort of dire

586
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: the situation is at this orphanage. I mean, this hr

587
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 2: guy who toured us around. His name is Branson Nunga.

588
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 2: By the way, Branson said that they have this huge

589
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 2: budget of like tens of thousands of dollars a month,

590
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: yet when he would take he took me to the

591
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: pharmacy and it was just like in complete disrepair, like

592
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,479
Speaker 2: filthy beds, like completely understocked. Likewise, for the library, there

593
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 2: were hardly any books there. I visited a classroom of

594
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: really young students, and I mean there were so many

595
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: kids crammed into that classroom, like from babies to probably

596
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: five year olds, and you know, I just thought, Okay,

597
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: what kind of learning could these children be getting? You know,

598
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: they're I'm sure the teacher is doing the best she can,

599
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: but you know, like this just doesn't seem like the

600
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: best of circumstances one could do with thousands of dollars.

601
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: The other thing that it really brought into relief for

602
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: me was, yeah, the fact that some, like not all

603
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 2: the staff there is quote unquote bad. There was this

604
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: teacher I met who I could tell just how truly

605
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: since shere she was. You know, it was just shining

606
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: through her eyes how much she cared about these students

607
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: and the students themselves. I didn't get to talk to

608
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: any of them there, but I met I got to

609
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: see some of the older ones in their classroom, and

610
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: you know, they seemed really enthusiastic at least to see me.

611
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 2: Who knows what's going on behind the scenes. But yeah,

612
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: I just think it was great to see the place

613
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 2: and how expansive it was for myself and get a

614
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: feel for some of these more subtle points.

615
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: Are they funded at all by African governments or the

616
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: country itself or is this totally self funded?

617
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 2: That's a really good point. I'm really happy you brought

618
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 2: that up. So they're an international charity. They have offices

619
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: here in the United States, so you know US donors

620
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: are giving money to this organization. They have offices in

621
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: Germany and Australia, obviously, Taiwan, China, all over the place.

622
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: Like I put together a spreadsheet at some point of

623
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: how many different countries have ami TOFO branches to raise funds,

624
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 2: and I think I get the impression that they're a

625
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 2: pretty big deal. In Taiwan, they're kind of like a

626
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: point of national pride. But I'm really hoping that the

627
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: message of the story especially gets back to these offices

628
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: and that you know, places like the Taiwanese government or

629
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: whoever it is that gives the nonprofit the go ahead

630
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: says hey, wait a minute, you know what are what

631
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: is actually going on here?

632
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: Well, that was my question. None of these schools you

633
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: know under this umbrella have been investigated by anybody.

634
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: Not that I am aware of. There was a documentary

635
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: film made about one of the schools in Malawi, but

636
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: it didn't get into this dark side of things. It

637
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 2: was more about like, oh, look at this interesting facility

638
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: where African students learn kung fu and then go to

639
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 2: China and perform kung fu.

640
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: Do you get the impression that all of these other

641
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: schools that you're talking about use kids for illegal activity

642
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: or is this Malawi specific?

643
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 2: So I definitely cannot say that for certain because I

644
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 2: didn't look into those schools. I also think the wildlife

645
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: trafficking issue is pretty specific to Malawi because of Lin's

646
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 2: involvement and home being centered in Malawi. That said, I

647
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: do know of Amitofo's staff who are like sort of

648
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 2: at the organizational level, who are involved in trafficking, so

649
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be surprised if there is some of this

650
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: happened at other schools. I did see news stories from Namibia,

651
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 2: for example, of parents, like you asked about the parents earlier,

652
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 2: demanding to see their children and being turned away, and

653
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 2: also of abuse, so I think there was a news

654
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 2: story I found of a young boy who had to

655
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 2: go to the hospital for a concussion after being hit

656
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: over the head for crying, for example.

657
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: That's awful.

658
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: I think abuse is certainly present at some, if not all,

659
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: the other facilities. Whether the wildlife trafficking issue is I

660
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 2: cannot say.

661
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: And what is your thought about why in the Lowi

662
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: government doesn't step in. I mean you were talking about

663
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: how police are pulling people over all the time, I

664
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: assume for poaching and other things. But is it just

665
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: you know, they're being paid off or just want to

666
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: ignore it because there's money coming in somehow or what

667
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: do you think?

668
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I mean, it's sheer corruption. So the fact

669
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 2: that Lynn was arrested at all was a huge deal

670
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: and just like a big surprise. It was hailed as

671
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 2: like Wow, this turning point from Malawi, are they finally

672
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,439
Speaker 2: getting serious? About investigating wildlife crime and actually cracking down

673
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 2: on it because he'd been paying the government off and

674
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 2: had been cozy with the government for years, and I

675
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: think it was a huge surprise to him, like he

676
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 2: couldn't believe that he was arrested. He's continued to brib

677
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 2: officials and get away with things that ordinary criminals wouldn't.

678
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 2: So while behind bars, he's actually been let out to

679
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: go check on his properties, to go visit brothels, to

680
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 2: go to the mall. He's allowed to have visitors, he's

681
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: allowed to have a cell phone. He's a prison official

682
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 2: I talked to, or not an official, I should say

683
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: a prison guard I talked to pretty low on the

684
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: Wrung had been at the prison where Lynn was and

685
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: said that he basically behaves almost like a free man.

686
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: He has so many privileges. So one of the reasons

687
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 2: that Lynn was actually finally arrested was because of international pressure.

688
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: It was just becoming too embarrassing for Malawi to let

689
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 2: this criminal run around do what whatever he wants, and

690
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: a team of dedicated, non corrupt police officers quietly put

691
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 2: together a case tracking him and then caught him like

692
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,919
Speaker 2: red handed, with so much evidence that it just would

693
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: have been like almost impossible from Malawi to just dismiss

694
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,439
Speaker 2: it and not have the international community come down on them.

695
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 2: So that's how Linn wound up in prison. However, last

696
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 2: summer he was given a surprise presidential pardon by the

697
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 2: outgoing president. Linn and his wife were given this pardon,

698
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: and it's obviously because this president's term is coming to

699
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 2: an end. He no longer has to deal with constituents

700
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: or the international community. He can just let Linn out

701
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 2: and then reap the rewards himself afterwards. That's what everybody thinks.

702
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 2: Lin's wife has already gone back to China, but Lynn

703
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: is still in prison because he's facing two additional charges

704
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 2: now of trying to bribe a judge and a prison official.

705
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: So he's still at it with this and that's really

706
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: why he's been allowed to act like this. Why crime

707
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 2: continues on this scale, because it just the impunity. Criminals

708
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 2: can get away with anything they want as virtually anything

709
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 2: they want, as long as they have enough money to

710
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: pay off those in power.

711
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: What are the sentences normally like, Is it like drugs

712
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: where it's you know, for poaching, where it's based on

713
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: the sheer amount and whether it's used for distribution or

714
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: illegal hunting. You know, I mean, is this like executionable

715
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: sort of offense in Africa?

716
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: No executions in Malawi for this Lynn Got I can't

717
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 2: remember the exact amount. I think it was fifteen years

718
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 2: in prison. He was put away before his prosecution in

719
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. But you know, he served like a fraction

720
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: of his sentence. Essentially none of it or most of

721
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 2: his assets weren't seized either. Some of them were, but

722
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 2: you know, Malawi didn't really get serious about going after

723
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 2: you know, his bank accounts and things like that that

724
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 2: were really tied to all this criminal engagement and would

725
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 2: have really crippled him and prevented him from continuing operations

726
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 2: behind bars in the way he has with access to

727
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 2: all of his money.

728
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: Well, let's go back and talk about Lin's involvement to

729
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: begin with. So I know that he was sort of

730
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: a jack of all illegal trades coming into Malawi and

731
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: he owned this land next to the orphanage. Was the

732
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: orphanage on the up and up before Linn got involved?

733
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: Or has this been a slow deterioration as the Chinese

734
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: come in more and more?

735
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: Really hard to say. You know, I wish I had

736
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 2: more information about that time, but you know, I didn't

737
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 2: get to interview Lynn. I didn't get to interview like

738
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 2: the head orphanage people. All we know is that at

739
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: some point after he moved to Lilongway, he sold the

740
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: orphanage land. He lived next to the orphanage and orphanage

741
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: people began associating with him. He was also he had

742
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 2: close ties to a casino in the Long Way where

743
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 2: the Chinese like to hang out, and that casino is

744
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: also somewhere where the monk who founded the Orphanages often

745
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 2: hangs out out. So we don't know if that monk

746
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 2: has ties to Lynn directly or not, but we do

747
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 2: know that, you know, at some point they probably cross paths.

748
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: And had Linn expanded throughout Malawe or another country in

749
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: Africa or was he really centered here.

750
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 2: Lynn's really a Southern Africa trafficking kingpinn. So he was

751
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: sending Aaron Dyson, that former student, to Namibia to collect

752
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: rhino horn for him. We know that he was working

753
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 2: with traffickers in Mozambique, South Africa, Zambia especially. There's rumors

754
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 2: now that Zambia traders are recruiting directly from Ami tofo

755
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: for help in the field. There's some evidence that he

756
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: perhaps also sourced products from as far away as Tanzania

757
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: or Kenya.

758
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: Why not get into something that to me seems much

759
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: easier to hide into export, Like why not get into

760
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: diamonds If you're going to do that, are these folks

761
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: you know who are doing illegal things also stretched into

762
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: diamonds too?

763
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 2: Lynn was definitely involved in both legal and illegal mining

764
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 2: of like rare metals. I think it was gold he

765
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: mostly dealt with. But these traders are really opportunistic, and

766
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 2: this is something you see coming up with wildlife trade

767
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: over and over again. You'll see like drugs and panglin

768
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 2: skills mixed together, you know, ivory mixed in with guns.

769
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 2: It's just anything you can do to make more money.

770
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 2: It's all about greed and finding sort of the path

771
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 2: of least resistance. So if you already have the means

772
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 2: to smuggle whatever thing to whatever country, why not throw

773
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: in you know whatever, you know, some lion bones or

774
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 2: whatever else wildlife product can just make you a few

775
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 2: more bucks.

776
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: Do you see any countries like the United States or

777
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: Europe or wherever, you know, some of these products go.

778
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: Do you see them cracking down on this sort of

779
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: exploitation coming from Africa or really from anywhere, or do

780
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: you think it's not a priority because you know, drugs

781
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: coming in from other countries is a bigger priority for them.

782
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 2: Well, human related crime like drugs always takes precedent for

783
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 2: governments in terms of cracking down. That's just the way

784
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: it is. People see wildlife crime as some kind of

785
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 2: secondary issue that isn't taken seriously, even though it contributes

786
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 2: to corruption. It you know, undermines countries' natural resources. So

787
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 2: there's just all kinds of reasons why wildlife crime is

788
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 2: a serious crime, but it's not taken that way. That said,

789
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: there has been a push, especially about ten years ago,

790
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: like around twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, wildlife trafficking finally started

791
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 2: to get a lot more recognition. There was like tons

792
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 2: of news stories about it. This is because rhino poaching

793
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 2: for their horns was surging in South Africa. You know,

794
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 2: there was like a thousand rhinos being killed a year

795
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 2: out of a total global population of just thirty thousand.

796
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 2: Elephants were being mowed down across the continent for their ivory.

797
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 2: Millions and millions of panguins are being killed and trafficked.

798
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: The problem was really just reaching like astronomical levels. So

799
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 2: it started to get attention, and governments started paying more attention,

800
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,919
Speaker 2: and places like the UK especially stepped up. We saw

801
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,959
Speaker 2: Prince William talking at lots of high profile conferences about

802
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: this issue. The US stepped up in a serious way

803
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 2: with funding and sending Fish and Wildlife Service officials like

804
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: attaches to be placed in key places like Kenya where

805
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 2: they could combat wildlife trade from the ground. Then President

806
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 2: Obama decided to close domestic trade of ivory here in

807
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 2: the US. That meant ivory could no longer be legally

808
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 2: sold like just between American American and American on American soil.

809
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 2: And then crucially China followed suit and closed its domestic

810
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 2: ivory market. Unfortunately, so that happened in I think it

811
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: was twenty nineteen, and after the pandemic hit, things really

812
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: kind of derailed in terms of considering this to be

813
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: such an important prioritize problem, which is sort of ironic

814
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 2: because the latest evidence really suggests that the pandemic was

815
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 2: caused by wildlife trade, that it emerged from that wet

816
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 2: market in Wuhan. So you know, we're talking about an

817
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 2: enterprise and a legal enterprise, sometimes legal that can trigger

818
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 2: the next pandemic, but we're just not taking it seriously

819
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 2: at all. And I think the reasons for that are

820
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: just like people got tired of talking about this, like

821
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 2: attention focus to more human needs and also just what's

822
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: going on currently in our country. You know, there's a

823
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 2: lot more things to be focused on, you know, the

824
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 2: war in Ukraine, Gaza, all of these things are just

825
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 2: taking attention away from wildlife.

826
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: You know what's interesting is I had not thought about

827
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 1: the trafficking part of it, or you know, animals who

828
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: shouldn't be here. And it's strangely, as much as I

829
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: am critical of Tiger King, that was the first time

830
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 1: I really felt like we have read articles and stuff

831
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: where I could actually just really spend time actually seeing

832
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 1: some of the animals that were clearly not meant to

833
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: be here. And I know that's a little different than

834
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: what we were talking about, but that's just sort of

835
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 1: you know, the impact of hurting animals and killing animals

836
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: for no good reason because it's not a convenient business

837
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: definitely for somebody. And I wonder if that is kind

838
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: of the way to have a movement is that kind

839
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: of a broad appeal. Not quite as you know, exploitative

840
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: as I think that was, but still, I mean, I

841
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: think it caught a lot of people's attention, especially for

842
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: the pandemic.

843
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a great point. We haven't even

844
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 2: talked about like the animal welfare side of things. But yeah, no,

845
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 2: Tiger King. Gotta admit I'm not a fan of documentary.

846
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 2: I wrote a sort of takedown piece about it for

847
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: the New York Times because I also had reported a

848
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 2: story about like Joe Exotic and tiger trafficking here in

849
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 2: the US, so I knew what was really going on.

850
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 2: But you know, for all the flaws of that production,

851
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: it made a real difference. It caught people's attention, and

852
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 2: it resulted in actual policy change. A law passed that

853
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 2: forbid tiger and lion cub petting, and these places, these

854
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 2: roadside zoos like Joe Exotics had made all their money,

855
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 2: you know, giving people the opportunity to play with these

856
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,720
Speaker 2: cuddly little creatures, and now that that money is taken away,

857
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 2: these places are slowly closing down because they can't make

858
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 2: ends meet. So you know, pulling at people's heartstrings. Making

859
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 2: them aware of these problems is a first step to

860
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 2: finding solutions. You can't fix a problem if you don't

861
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 2: even know it exists.

862
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: So, you know, as we're wrapping up here, the international

863
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: organization that started this school, you know, in Taiwan, and

864
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: now it's spread out. Where do you think the state

865
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: of things is now with these orphanages? Do you think

866
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: they're holding steady or do you think they're expanding or

867
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 1: slowly shutting down or what?

868
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 2: Well, I can't say if they're expanding or I don't. Yeah,

869
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 2: I'm just not privy to that information. I don't think

870
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 2: they're shutting down. What I can tell you is that

871
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 2: I don't think my story landed in the way that

872
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: I guess I would have wished, but also would probably

873
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 2: be pretty naive to hope for, which is that it's

874
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: not like they are now undertaking some kind of internal review.

875
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: I've heard from sources on the ground that, for example,

876
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 2: the woman who runs the orphanage inl long Way has

877
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,720
Speaker 2: been calling politicians she knows, saying who is behind this story?

878
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 2: You know, I want to find them and punish them

879
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 2: and shut this down. They're on a hunt to try

880
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: to find out, like how it is that I got

881
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 2: access to this and managed to bring this to international readers.

882
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: They're not saying, huh, what is it about our processes

883
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: that led to this? Or oh my gosh, this is terrible,

884
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: let's fix it. My story also got coverage in Malawi,

885
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: so it was picked up by the local news there,

886
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: and I know that the editor of one of these

887
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 2: newspapers received a phone call from this woman saying, essentially,

888
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: what is it that I can do for you to

889
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: pull this story? Essentially how much money do I have

890
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: to pay you to not run this story?

891
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: Let's how you know you've got a good story, right.

892
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they're on the total defense. But unless

893
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 2: the Malawi government steps in, I don't really see anything changing,

894
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 2: or unless there's you know, international pressure exerted on the

895
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 2: Malawi government to change this, or perhaps it could come

896
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 2: from the taiwan side. You know, if the Taiwanese government

897
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 2: would pay attention to this issue and start their investigation,

898
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 2: maybe they could exert control. But that would just be

899
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 2: on the nonprofit side of things, not on the operational side.

900
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: I mean, these are very powerful people, and I know

901
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: as a journalist you've done lots of different things. You've

902
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: written books and everything. You know that you've dealt with

903
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: these sorts of people before, but you know the amount

904
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: of money that they're making. Do you ever worry about

905
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 1: things a little more dangerous than just someone calling and

906
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 1: you know, somebody at the magazine and saying, hey, can

907
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: you stop the story? Do you worry about that for

908
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: yourself ever? Because you're going to assume continue to do this.

909
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely want to continue this work. If I

910
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: lived in Malawi, the case would be completely different. But

911
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 2: you know, I have the privilege to be able to

912
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: just parachute in and report the story and then get out.

913
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 2: That's not the case for you know, the sources I

914
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: interviewed who trusted me with their stories and you know,

915
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 2: could get into deep trouble if their anonymity is revealed,

916
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 2: or you know, the interpreters I worked with. Yeah, it's

917
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: a privilege to be able to tell their stories, and

918
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: I'm very much aware that for them it is a

919
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 2: potential issue of life or death.

920
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

921
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners, All About the

922
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923
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,040
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924
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: crime podcast, tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

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Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a if you haven't already.

926
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927
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This

928
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer.

929
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 1: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

930
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,279
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Speaker 1: More and if you know of a historical crime that

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Speaker 1: could use some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked,

934
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Speaker 1: email us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also

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Speaker 1: take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words