Speaker 1: The Library of Congress is the largest library in the world.
Speaker 1: It's led by Carla Hayden, the Librarian of Congress. She's
Speaker 1: unique because she's the first woman to be library in Congress,
Speaker 1: the first African American to be Library in Congress, and
Speaker 1: also one of the first librarians to be library in Congress.
Speaker 1: I had a chance to sit down with her recently
Speaker 1: to hear her story and how she's trying to open
Speaker 1: up the Library of Congress to all Americans. So why
Speaker 1: does Congress need a library? Can't they just use the
Speaker 1: regular library other people have. Why do they need their
Speaker 1: own library?
Speaker 2: Well, Congress, and think about this. In eighteen hundred, a
Speaker 2: new nation, a new legislative body, there was the thought
Speaker 2: that they needed some reference books, and they were mainly
Speaker 2: law books. The first books that were purchased about six
Speaker 2: hundred books. And that's how the Library of Congress really started.
Speaker 2: Think of the name the Library of Congress. So it
Speaker 2: is a reference and research tool for Congress. And they
Speaker 2: knew that because they have parliamentary libraries and they knew
Speaker 2: about those types of things, so they knew that as
Speaker 2: legislators they might have to refer.
Speaker 1: Now in twenty twenty four. The Library of Congress is
Speaker 1: much bigger than it was when we first started eighteen hundred.
Speaker 1: But is it really properly named the Library of Congress
Speaker 1: now because it isn't more than just a library for
Speaker 1: congressmen and women.
Speaker 2: Well, it's evolved, and over time it evolved into not
Speaker 2: only the reference tool for Congress. And there's still about
Speaker 2: five hundred experts in just about every field that are
Speaker 2: dedicated to being the researchers and nonpartisan experts for Congress.
Speaker 2: And that's still there, but the library has expanded to
Speaker 2: serve the people that Congress serves.
Speaker 3: So now it is.
Speaker 2: The largest library in the world, with one hundred and
Speaker 2: seventy eight million items, and it serves everyone.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: The only people who can actually check out materials in
Speaker 2: the traditional sense are members of Congress and their staff members.
Speaker 2: But members of the public, the general public, can come
Speaker 2: into the Library of Congress's facilities and use materials on site.
Speaker 1: Let's suppose I am a person who wants to use
Speaker 1: the Library Congress for research and I need some books
Speaker 1: I want to take home to read them at home.
Speaker 1: I cannot do that if I'm a regular, you.
Speaker 3: Could not do that.
Speaker 2: What you could do and what many libraries, public libraries,
Speaker 2: and university and college libraries throughout the United States and
Speaker 2: even in some international facilities. The Library of Congress will
Speaker 2: loan materials to another library and a patron could look
Speaker 2: at the materials right there, but they couldn't take them home,
Speaker 2: but they could look at them in their own library.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what does the Library Congress actually do?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: The Library and of Congress is basically the CEO of
Speaker 2: the entire enterprise, and that includes the US Copyright Office.
Speaker 2: The Library of Congress in eighteen seventy became the administrative
Speaker 2: operation and really the main manager of the US copyright system.
Speaker 2: That's also how the library collection grew because when you
Speaker 2: register for copyright whatever it is, you are required to
Speaker 2: deposit too copies of whatever it is now that could
Speaker 2: be wallpaper, video games, but books. And when the Library
Speaker 2: of Congress became the administrator of the copyright system, they
Speaker 2: were able to then select from deposits and the collection
Speaker 2: really grew.
Speaker 1: So we've had the Library of Congress who started in
Speaker 1: eighteen hundred. Many women have been librarians of Congress before you.
Speaker 2: I'm their first female Library of Congress since eighteen oh two.
Speaker 2: So the library itself was established the law books in
Speaker 2: eighteen hundred, and then in eighteen oh two there was
Speaker 2: a thought, well, we need somebody to manage this, and
Speaker 2: that's when the first Librarian of Congress was appointed.
Speaker 1: How many African Americans have been Library of Congress before you?
Speaker 2: That's also me and so I'm a twofer in terms
Speaker 2: of that. So there haven't been any people of color
Speaker 2: or females, And it's interesting the most one of the
Speaker 2: most unusual parts of being in the position is the
Speaker 2: fact that I'm a female, because librarianship is one of
Speaker 2: what they call the four feminized professions, where eighty five
Speaker 2: to ninety percent of the people who work in the
Speaker 2: institution are female, but the top management doesn't reflect that.
Speaker 1: So is there a library that's bigger than the Library
Speaker 1: of Congress anywhere in the world? Does any country have
Speaker 1: a bigger collection of books than the Library of Congress.
Speaker 2: We've just been designated in the Guinness Book of World
Speaker 2: Records as the largest library in the world, and our
Speaker 2: closest competitor, and it's really not a competition, is the
Speaker 2: British Library. That's the National Library of Great Britain, and
Speaker 2: we have a friendly kind of rivalry, but in terms
Speaker 2: of number of items, and we definitely are the largest.
Speaker 1: So you have more than books. You have regular books,
Speaker 1: you have comic books, you have maps, you have manuscripts, so.
Speaker 2: Photographs, film, all types, any format.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you today, almost everything is digitized, it seems,
Speaker 1: so why do we really need libraries since you can
Speaker 1: just go on a computer and get everything. Do you
Speaker 1: really need to keep all these books? Why not just
Speaker 1: digitize them and then say thank you?
Speaker 2: There are so many items that have not been digitized
Speaker 2: and might not ever be digitized. When you think about
Speaker 2: the diaries of Theodore Roosevelt. The Library Congress has the
Speaker 2: papers of twenty three presidents from George Washington to Coolidge.
Speaker 2: There will still be analog materials that could be digitized,
Speaker 2: but will be in analog form and books. Even though
Speaker 2: you can get things in digital form, there are still
Speaker 2: people and there still will be an appetite for a
Speaker 2: physical item. But the future is definitely digital, and so
Speaker 2: libraries like the Library Congress, British Library, all libraries are
Speaker 2: making sure that they have the infrastructure to be able
Speaker 2: to get materials that are born digital. And so we
Speaker 2: have quite a bit of materials that are coming in.
Speaker 2: They never are in analog form. They're coming straight in
Speaker 2: digital film and we're able to circulate.
Speaker 1: Them as we talk. Now, what do you think you
Speaker 1: have done in your period of time eight years or
Speaker 1: so to open up the library to the average citizen
Speaker 1: more than was done before, specifically with respective children. What
Speaker 1: have you done well?
Speaker 2: We've started to be a card member to use the
Speaker 2: eighteen reading rooms of the library.
Speaker 3: Cards will have to be sixteen. It's a card.
Speaker 2: It's a reader's card to give you access to the materials,
Speaker 2: to say that you're responsible in that even though you
Speaker 2: can't check them out. It's to have a record of
Speaker 2: who's coming in and to do that. What we've done, though,
Speaker 2: is to expand the offerings that we have for young people.
Speaker 2: We have a Young People's Ambassador for Literature, We have
Speaker 2: literacy programs.
Speaker 3: And you've been involved in.
Speaker 2: Giving actual awards to literacy groups that help young people
Speaker 2: learn how to read. And so the offerings that we
Speaker 2: have for young people people have expanded greatly.
Speaker 1: Literacy is a big problem in the United States. I
Speaker 1: think fourteen percent of adults are functioning illiterate, which means
Speaker 1: they can't read past the fourth grade. Level, that's a
Speaker 1: large percentage of the population. Nothing the Library of Congress
Speaker 1: can do can completely solve that problem. But are you
Speaker 1: surprised at how many people still cannot read in this country?
Speaker 1: And how many people have another problem called illiteracy or
Speaker 1: literacy which means they can read, but they don't choose
Speaker 1: to read. They don't and is that a growing problem?
Speaker 2: And that's it's a challenge with the digital age because
Speaker 2: people are they're reading on tablet, so we do count
Speaker 2: that as reading. If you have an ebook, you're reading
Speaker 2: the book. And I've been often asked if I'm listening
Speaker 2: to a book, are you reading?
Speaker 3: Does that count?
Speaker 2: But there is a concern that the amount of reading
Speaker 2: actual texts that people are doing is diminishing. And so
Speaker 2: how do you work with other organizations? So the Library
Speaker 2: Congress connects to public library school libraries and we do
Speaker 2: joint programming with them because there is an opportunity for
Speaker 2: us to let people know and to make reading more interesting.
Speaker 1: So literacy is a challenge for sure, But in the
Speaker 1: libraries around the country, our libraries being used more and
Speaker 1: more because people can't afford to buy books, or are
Speaker 1: they being used because it's a good place to gather
Speaker 1: where it's quiet. Why don't we actually have all these
Speaker 1: thousands of libraries anymore? When people are often doing things
Speaker 1: digitally and they don't need to go to a physical
Speaker 1: place to get a book.
Speaker 2: People are using public libraries as and someone is it
Speaker 2: as opportunity centers. They use the high speed computers to
Speaker 2: fill out job applications, to interact with government.
Speaker 3: They hold e government aspect.
Speaker 2: They are using libraries as places to register to vote, to.
Speaker 3: Vote and all types of things.
Speaker 2: And libraries are offering collections that are beyond books. So
Speaker 2: libraries are circulating and responding to communities in so many ways.
Speaker 1: So let's talk a bit about your background, how you
Speaker 1: became a librarian. So where were you born?
Speaker 2: I was born on the campus of Florida A and
Speaker 2: M University, historically Black college in Tallahassee, Florida.
Speaker 1: And were your parents' teachers there?
Speaker 2: Yes, My father had been recruited to start the string
Speaker 2: department at that school. He was a classically trained violinist
Speaker 2: and string instruments and so he was there. And then
Speaker 2: my mom was a pianist. She was as a companists
Speaker 2: many times, and so they went down there.
Speaker 3: They'd never been to Florida.
Speaker 2: They had never been to a historically back college and
Speaker 2: they were from Springfield, Illinois, my dad and Champagne or
Speaker 2: my mom, so it was just a totally different experience
Speaker 2: for them.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you how you got out of
Speaker 1: Florida because you were born there, you're raised there. But
Speaker 1: then where did you go to college?
Speaker 3: Well, there was a little byway there.
Speaker 2: My dad got bitten by the Jazz Book and we
Speaker 2: moved to New York City so we could pursue that
Speaker 2: parents got divorced because my mom did not get bitten
Speaker 2: by that book. So then we returned to their home
Speaker 2: states of Illinois. So I ended up going to high
Speaker 2: school and then college in Chicago.
Speaker 1: And you went to college ultimately.
Speaker 2: Where Roosevelt University and University of Chicago.
Speaker 1: Right, So you got a PhD in Library Sciences at
Speaker 1: the University Coago. Yes, So are there many library schools anymore?
Speaker 1: Because I thought some of them, that one of the
Speaker 1: U in Chicago no longer exists. But are there still
Speaker 1: a lot of library schools around the United States?
Speaker 2: They're about fifty six library schools, but now they're mainly
Speaker 2: called information science schools, Schools of information science or information management.
Speaker 2: The University of Chicago school closed and the Columbia University
Speaker 2: closed because their programs were deemed a little too academic.
Speaker 1: So after you got your PhD from the University of
Speaker 1: Chicago and library Sciences, what did you do well?
Speaker 2: I went off to teach at the Library School and
Speaker 2: University of Pittsburgh. And that school was really before its time.
Speaker 2: The dean there was Tony Carbel, really wanted to make
Speaker 2: sure that there was a merger with information science computer science.
Speaker 2: She brought in technology companies and it was really an
Speaker 2: innovative library school.
Speaker 1: And then did you go back to Chicago from there?
Speaker 2: I went back, and I went back because one of
Speaker 2: my students that I had sent off with all this
Speaker 2: knowledge is power and go and work in these libraries
Speaker 2: and help people and everything. He came back and said,
Speaker 2: I'm going to get a PhD and.
Speaker 3: I want to teach.
Speaker 2: And I said, but you were doing so well, I
Speaker 2: thought at this big urban library, and he said, well,
Speaker 2: you told me to bring my ideas up. And I
Speaker 2: saw the director of the library and I went up
Speaker 2: to him and he I was trying to tell him
Speaker 2: some of the things that I was interested in, and
Speaker 2: he blew me off, and I thought, oh, okay, this
Speaker 2: isn't and so I'm coming back to academ.
Speaker 1: So what did you do? You joined the Chicago.
Speaker 2: Chicago Public Library and you rose up to be the
Speaker 2: chief librarian. I went back to Chicago also did a
Speaker 2: stint at the Museum of Science and Industry, and that
Speaker 2: was really helpful because I worked more with the curators,
Speaker 2: but also opening up a public library in a museum.
Speaker 1: So we're in Chicago. You met two people. Did they
Speaker 1: borrow a lot of books of Barack and Michelle Obama?
Speaker 1: Where they did they ever have overdue fines or anything?
Speaker 2: Well, we could never tell if they did. But what
Speaker 2: happened was when I went back, the person that was
Speaker 2: the administrator for the city of Chicago that had in
Speaker 2: her portfolio the public library was Michelle Robinson, and I
Speaker 2: got to know her because she was responsible as a
Speaker 2: deputy mayor type of position. And then she got engaged
Speaker 2: to this gentleman who had an interesting name. And I
Speaker 2: was recruited to head up the Baltimore Library. And so
Speaker 2: in that July I missed the wedding.
Speaker 1: Oh whatever happened to him, he did well.
Speaker 2: It was so interesting too that years later I would
Speaker 2: be sitting almost like this in the Oval Office being
Speaker 2: interviewed by the President of the United States, because that's
Speaker 2: the person who nominates the library to Congress.
Speaker 3: And it's that.
Speaker 1: So you already knew them. But let's talk about Baltimore.
Speaker 1: You went to my hometown in Baltimore, where the library
Speaker 1: system is called the inocaprat Free Library System, and you
Speaker 1: became the head library and there for twenty two years.
Speaker 3: Twenty two years.
Speaker 1: Hey, so you're the head library for twenty two years
Speaker 1: in Baltimore. And then the President of the United States
Speaker 1: has the responsibility to nominate for Senate confirmation the Library
Speaker 1: of Congress. I went members of Congress nominate the Library
Speaker 1: of Congress since it's a Congress thing.
Speaker 2: Believe it started with Lincoln, and that it would be
Speaker 2: a position that the President would nominate similar to a
Speaker 2: Supreme Court justice, and that it was that type of position,
Speaker 2: and so you still have to be confirmed by the Senate.
Speaker 3: And I went through that process.
Speaker 1: So you interviewed with President Obama and he said, do
Speaker 1: you want to be Library of Congress? And I guess
Speaker 1: you said you were interested.
Speaker 2: I was concerned about what I could bring to the
Speaker 2: position because I had been so involved with public libraries
Speaker 2: public access all of that career, but I never thought
Speaker 2: of actually being part of the Library Congress because of
Speaker 2: what the perception was that it was mainly for scholars.
Speaker 2: It was that, And so what President Obama asked me
Speaker 2: was he started it out with telling me that he
Speaker 2: had seen the contents of Abraham Lincoln's pockets the night
Speaker 2: he was assassinated. He had seen the first the draft
Speaker 2: reading copy of the Gettysburg Address at lincoln Ton. But
Speaker 2: he said at the Library of Congress. But he said,
Speaker 2: I think that's because of my position, And he said,
Speaker 2: what could you do with your background to open up
Speaker 2: the Library of Congress to everyone? And that's what I
Speaker 2: thought and said to him, I think I can do that.
Speaker 1: So the government of the United States pays for the
Speaker 1: Library of Congress. But do you take donations or you
Speaker 1: do not interested in donations?
Speaker 2: Well, we have wonderful philanthropic support the James Madison Council.
Speaker 2: You've definitely have been the leader of that, and that's
Speaker 2: the philanthropic arm of the library. And so there are
Speaker 2: actual donations of cash that but also grants. The Mellon
Speaker 2: Foundation gave the library one of its largest grants ever
Speaker 2: to work with communities about their histories. And also we
Speaker 2: just started a friends group. The Library of Congress had
Speaker 2: never had a friends group. And so at a certain
Speaker 2: level you can be a friend of the Library of
Speaker 2: Congress and then people give actual collectictions and collection items,
Speaker 2: and that's truly wonderful because we wouldn't be able to
Speaker 2: purchase some of the things that people have given us.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you about the library itself today.
Speaker 1: How many employees do you have?
Speaker 2: Roughly thirty five hundred are They're not all librarians. Those
Speaker 2: are the people that you have, copyright lawyers, all types
Speaker 2: of people that work at the library.
Speaker 1: Car Now very often when I've seen Library of Congress employees,
Speaker 1: I asked them how long they've been here, and they
Speaker 1: sipicly say, oh, thirty five years. That's a long time.
Speaker 1: They say, no, somebody here is forty years. Somebody here
Speaker 1: is forty five years. Why don't people stay so long
Speaker 1: at the Library of Congress.
Speaker 3: They love it. One of the joys.
Speaker 2: It's like being in a university. They're like faculty members,
Speaker 2: and there are subject experts in whatever subject you have.
Speaker 2: The Library of Congress there collects in four hundred and
Speaker 2: seventy languages. Half of the collection is in languages other
Speaker 2: than English, and so the Middle Eastern division, you're going
Speaker 2: to have experts from the region who are from the
Speaker 2: region and speak.
Speaker 1: So today you've got thirty five hundred employees. Where do
Speaker 1: you get your money from? To library finds? I assume
Speaker 1: are not that big a part of your business.
Speaker 2: And this is where the accessibility for everyone comes into play,
Speaker 2: because eighty five to ninety percent of the library's operating
Speaker 2: budget is from an appropriation from Congress, and that's taxpayer money.
Speaker 2: And so that's another reason why we're really just devoted
Speaker 2: to making sure people know that this is their library too.
Speaker 1: So it was a joint committee on the Library.
Speaker 2: For the library budget goes through the appropriations committees on
Speaker 2: both sides Senate and House, and then there are pol
Speaker 2: committees that help with the direction of the library itself,
Speaker 2: though budgeting gives you direction as well.
Speaker 1: What do you do when you're not being a library
Speaker 1: in a Congress?
Speaker 2: I always love to read, and so when I get
Speaker 2: some spare time, I can look at old New Yorkers
Speaker 2: and you know how they poll up. I could read
Speaker 2: a mystery. I love mysteries and biographies.
Speaker 1: But you don't go to any bookstores because you don't
Speaker 1: need to buy books too.
Speaker 2: You go to books to the Ivory Bookstore in Baltimore.
Speaker 2: And it's funny because now people are watching what I'm buying,
Speaker 2: so you have to be careful.
Speaker 1: So as we talk, this weekend is the National Book
Speaker 1: Festival Weekend. This has been going off for about twenty
Speaker 1: plus years or so. What actually happens at the National
Speaker 1: Book Festival.
Speaker 3: Oh, and it is a festival.
Speaker 2: It's a one day event with over ninety authors now
Speaker 2: and it was started by first Lady Laura Bush, when
Speaker 2: my predecessor, when she came to Washington, she had started
Speaker 2: the Texas Book Festival. That's one of still one of
Speaker 2: the largest book festivals in the country. And they started
Speaker 2: it about twenty four years ago. And it when you
Speaker 2: think about what we have for young people and what
Speaker 2: we do for young people. There's an entire section that
Speaker 2: is going to feature interactive activities and authors for young people.
Speaker 2: Famous authors that we all know, Doris Currents, Goodwin, James McBride,
Speaker 2: James Patterson will be there. You'll be there, and it's
Speaker 2: just heartening when you we've just talked about illiteracy, and
Speaker 2: when you see all of these book lovers that are gathered,
Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of people.
Speaker 1: Who presidents of the United States have will come up
Speaker 1: and borrow a book, or they don't they're too busy
Speaker 1: to do that. They don't call you and say do
Speaker 1: you have this book or something.
Speaker 2: Well, we have had some good relations with the White
Speaker 2: House in terms of putting books on display for certain things,
Speaker 2: and we've been doing more of that recently.
Speaker 1: So what kind of books do you like to read?
Speaker 1: Are you non fiction.
Speaker 3: Or I mentioned mysteries.
Speaker 2: A big mystery fan because you feel some sense of satisfaction.
Speaker 3: With it.
Speaker 2: Someone usually gets killed, nobody cares, but and then it's solved.
Speaker 3: So that's very reassuring.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the Library of Congress in the future.
Speaker 1: Let's say ten, twenty thirty years from now. Do you
Speaker 1: expect libraries like the Library Congress to be more relevant,
Speaker 1: less relevant, more technologically savvy, or about the same as now.
Speaker 2: They're going to be more technologically savvy, but they're also
Speaker 2: going to be and we're seeing it now. Even though
Speaker 2: there are some challenges in terms of what public libraries
Speaker 2: and school libraries offer They're going to be even more relevant.
Speaker 3: Because there's still trusted source of.
Speaker 2: Information and in the world of misinformation, who can you trust?
Speaker 2: What are those trusted sources? Libraries are still going to
Speaker 2: be places that people look to.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You
Speaker 1: can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen.