1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from House Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and we've talked about mental health a 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: number of times on Stuff I've Never Told You, and 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: we have received requests from a lot of listeners to 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: talk about what we're going to talk about today, which 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: is borderline personality disorder. And Caroline, I want to bounce 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: the ball to you first because you're the one who 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: you know, in addition to us getting these listener requests, 10 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: you also were interested in researching and talking about this. 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: Was there something in particular that sparked your desire to 12 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: learn more about it? Yeah, because when I have heard 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: about borderline personality disorder, traditionally, it's been and in relation 14 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: to women, traditionally, it has been along the lines of 15 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: that girl is crazy, um, or I dated this crazy girl, 16 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: or my friend dated this crazy girl, and you know, 17 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: I think she was like borderline or something, and so 18 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: people being very flip about it, the way that they 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: people in general are flip about so many mental health conditions. Um. 20 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: You know, we talked about that very same issue in 21 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: our in our episode on obsessive compulsive disorder that people 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: are are very not eager, but very ready to just 23 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: throw out a mental health term to describe something not serious, 24 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: when in reality you're mislabeling a set of behaviors. Yeah, 25 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: and also miss gendering it in a way, because, like 26 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: you said, a lot of times, when it is applied 27 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: more sarcastically, it's usually exclusively describing women. And even if 28 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: we look at pop culture and depictions of borderline personality disorder, 29 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: all of the characters we rounded up are women as well. 30 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: So for instance, Girl Interrupted starting one on a Writer 31 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: and Angelina Jolie One own a Writer's character is supposed 32 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: to have BPD, but she kind of shows little evidence 33 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 1: of it in the movie. Yeah, it's almost like Angelina 34 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: Jolie's character shows a little bit more of that traditional 35 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,119 Speaker 1: BPD behavior. Um there's also Glenn Close and fatal attraction 36 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: and before anyone gets upset, she is definitely a caricature 37 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: of someone with BP d um and and that's that's 38 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: another issue too. So not only do you have the 39 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: gendering of borderline personality disorder in pop culture and in 40 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: the media, but you do tend to see it as 41 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: a caricature, not as something real that someone is struggling with. UM. 42 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: Psychiatrist David m. Allen, who is a professor at the 43 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: University of Tennessee, also pointed out that Anne Hathaway in 44 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: the movie Rachel Getting Married UH portrays someone with borderline 45 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: personality disorder, but they don't actually delve deep into the 46 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: relationship between her and her mother, which uh in real life, 47 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: I r L could have triggered BPD in someone and 48 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: a movie that I actually had not heard of before, 49 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: but I'm now curious to say, partially because I love 50 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: this actress, Jessica Laying in the movie. Francis Um is also, 51 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: as Dr Allen points out, someone who is meant to 52 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: portray borderline personality disorder because of the way that she 53 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: manipulates her psychiatrists by exploiting his insecurities. And that is 54 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: something that you see with borderline where people do tend 55 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: to be master manipulators because they read people really, really, 56 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: really well. Yeah. And also he points out that the 57 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: tipping point in this character's life, well, actually it was 58 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: a character based on a woman who actually existed, an 59 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: actress named Francis Um. But she also has this controlling, 60 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: hostile mother who tried to live vicariously through her, and 61 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: so we will talk about more about these family connections. 62 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: Does this get a little mommy dearest? Yeah, that was 63 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: another one that commenters were like, Um, I have another 64 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: one suggestion. Yeah. Um. He also was really big on 65 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: the movie Third Team, which start Evan rachel Wood and 66 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,679 Speaker 1: Nicky Reid. He says that it should be subtitled how 67 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: to turn your teenager into a borderline without ever being abusive. Yeah. 68 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: I was trying to remember watching that. It's been so 69 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: long since I've seen thirteen, and I certainly was not 70 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: aware as I was watching that that that might have 71 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: been something going on with these characters. Well right, And 72 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: I think that when we look at kids, teens, young 73 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: people who are developing BPD, a lot of the times 74 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: they're just portrayed as like bad kids, bad seed. Wild. Yeah, 75 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: they're just wild and out of control, and you know, 76 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: maybe they should just be shipped off to boarding school 77 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: or you know, you're just gonna wind up in prison. 78 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: But there are very real things that are beginning to 79 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: manifest around that age. Because if borderline personality disorder and 80 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: it's accompanying symptoms aren't caught early on, and technically are 81 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: not supposed to diagnose a child with BPD. Um, you 82 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: can almost just watch the condition develop as kids get older. Well, 83 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: speaking of watching the condition develop, let's talk about what 84 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: this is. So according to the National Institutes of Health, 85 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: borderline personality disorder is defined as a serious mental illness 86 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,559 Speaker 1: marked by unstable moods, behaviors, and relationships, which does sound 87 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: like a very umbrella type of germ. I gotta be honest, yeah, absolutely, 88 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: and those unstable moods can be triggered by, honestly, really 89 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: what we would consider maybe mundane events or minor separations, 90 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: because people with BPD are terrified of abandonment and they 91 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: tend to lack a strong or stable sense of self 92 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: IDENTI and then um, as we mentioned talking about Jessica 93 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: Lang portraying Francis, people with borderline personality tend to be 94 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: hyper adept at reading people, and this was something explored 95 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: more in November two thousand and six study in the 96 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: journal Emotion, which found that quote an enhanced ability to 97 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: recognize expressions of happiness, sadness, anger, and fear might contribute 98 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: to the unstable relationships and intense emotions characteristic of the disorder. 99 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: So essentially, these people are able to read other people 100 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: and then sort of shapeshift in a way based on that. 101 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: But it's almost it's almost such a burden because they 102 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: are so adept at picking up on she's really happy 103 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: or she's really upset, or she's really angry. They tend 104 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: to experience this emotional roller coaster. And so basically in 105 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: this study, when they were shown faces, they were able 106 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: to pick up on an emotion, whether it was anger 107 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: or whether it was happy nous, so much earlier in 108 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: the emotions expression on the face than people without BPD. 109 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: So like, I might be having just like a flicker 110 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: of anger across my face, but somebody with BPD would 111 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: pick up on that end imagine that I'm just enraged 112 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: or so upset with them. Um. And it's the same 113 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,679 Speaker 1: thing with happiness, which leads to a lot of very 114 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: turbulent emotional connections because if if I'm looking at you 115 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: and I'm just like vaguely happy or you know, not 116 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,679 Speaker 1: looking upset, you might think like, oh, she she really 117 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: likes me, or you know, they tend to develop these 118 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: these really strong emotional connections and have turbulent romantic relationships 119 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: because there's almost too much of her reading into when 120 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: it comes to emotions, facial expressions, body language. Oh so 121 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: it's not it's not even just that they're correct in 122 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: assessing someone's emotions, but they tend to blow it out 123 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: of proportion. Yeah, okay. And on top of these kinds 124 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: of factors, there are also high rates of comorbid conditions 125 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: like anxiety, which is the most common. M BPD and 126 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: anxiety tend to go pretty hand in hand, as well 127 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: as things like depression, substance abuse, and eating disorders, as 128 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: well as self harm and suicide. And that self harm 129 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: and and self cutting behavior was something that came up 130 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: in a lot of the research that we read, especially 131 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: when it came to women with borderline personality disorder. Yeah. 132 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: And other common comorbid conditions include post traumatic stress disorder, 133 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: bipolar to disorders, and a d h D. And the 134 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: whole PTSD thing is interesting because there is a large 135 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: group of psychiatrists and people in the mental health community 136 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: who think that borderline personality disorder is just a type 137 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: of PTSD, and so we'll we'll talk about that a 138 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: little bit more in a minute. But the impulsiveness that 139 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: comes along with vp D lot of times can lead 140 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: to risky behavior things like spending, spreeze, unsafe sex substances 141 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: which we mentioned, reckless driving, and even binge eating. And 142 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: this risky behavior means that a lot of VPD people 143 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: are more likely to be victims of violence, including rape. 144 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: And continuing with the behavioral symptoms, there tend to be 145 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: lots of stormy relationships that swing on that pendulum from 146 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: I hate you, don't leave me, um intense and highly 147 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: changeable moves, fluctuating from confidence to despair, chronic feelings of 148 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: emptiness or boredom, having inappropriate or intense anger, or problems 149 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: controlling anger. Like you said earlier, Caroline, they are these 150 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: what we might consider to be mundane events that can 151 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 1: send someone kind of over the edge, and then also 152 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: stress related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms such as 153 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself outside of one's body, 154 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: or just losing touch with reality entirely. And that too 155 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: is where we will in a few minutes get into 156 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: why borderline is called borderline, right, But in terms of 157 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: that inappropriate or ill controlled anger, we see road rage 158 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: come up a lot in terms of things that are 159 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: associated with bp D, but then people like Judith Herman, 160 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: who will talk about in a little bit, also come 161 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: back and say, you know, there are things that are 162 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: associated with anger or masculinity that are okay. So it's 163 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: almost like it's more okay for certain symptoms of BPD 164 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: when it's a man showing them versus a woman. But well, 165 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: and this list of symptoms too, or behavioral manifestations sounds 166 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: like it could be so many different things. And also 167 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: there are a lot of things on this list that 168 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: I experienced from time or time too, So you can 169 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: see how borderline probably becomes so challenging, if anything, just 170 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: to get a diagnosis. Yeah, but it turns out that 171 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: it's twice as common as schizophrenia in the population, and 172 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: about two of the general population has borderline personality disorder, 173 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: and it is treatable to a degree. It takes pretty 174 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: intensive therapy. Um, but that means that therapists with traditional 175 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 1: analytic training aren't incredibly effective. They might view BPD patients 176 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: as manipulative and demanding of too much time. Uh, and 177 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: BPD patients do tend to sabotage their therapy and might 178 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: not trust their therapist. Nor is there any psychotherapeutic drug 179 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: developed to specifically treat borderline personality disorders, so drugs might 180 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,479 Speaker 1: be prescribed, but at the same time, se of borderline 181 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: patients drop out of traditional treatments. So as a result 182 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: of the chat olenges to addressing, treating, and managing borderline 183 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: personality disorder, eight percent of people with it have suicidal behaviors, 184 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:13,359 Speaker 1: with an estimated three attempts and about ten commit suicide. 185 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: And because of that huge link to suicidality and also 186 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: how common it is compared to something like schizophrenia, that 187 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: we tend to hear about a lot more, that tends 188 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: to get a lot more funding and research, um, a 189 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: lot of uh, you know, healthcare providers and researchers have 190 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: called for greater public awareness and attention to this. Yeah, 191 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: And in terms of the research that's been done, researchers 192 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: say that both genetic and environmental factors are at play 193 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: because studies have shown that it's inheritable and things like 194 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: mood disregulation and aggression could be related to low levels 195 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: of serotonin. But other researchers have asked whether we inherit 196 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: temperament and person a reality traits like compulsiveness and aggression, 197 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: and then environmental factors like abuse, neglect, and instability in 198 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: the home end up triggering the personality disorder. So it 199 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: sounds like there's some correlation causation that has to be 200 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: untangled going on. Um, And it should be said that 201 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: some people with borderline personality disorder come from stable homes, 202 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:28,959 Speaker 1: but deprivation and or instability and relationships are more likely 203 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: to promote it. So going back to David and Allen, 204 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: whom we said it earlier, UM, he says that it 205 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: doesn't require abuse. It could be more about receiving conflicting 206 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: messages as a kid. So the example that he paints 207 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: is of parents who might see their parental role as 208 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: the ultimate life goal, but deep down they kind of 209 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: hate being parents resent it might resent their children. So 210 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: the parent then vacillates between hostile over involvement and under involvement, 211 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: and so it creates this invalidating environment, which, honestly, Caroline, 212 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: when I first read the phrase invalidating environment, that sounded 213 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: very much like a helicopter parenting kind of term of like, oh, no, 214 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: we must give children trophies forever, little thing they do, 215 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: but it's not it's not that right, right, Yeah, invalidating 216 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: basically refers to a child experiencing cognitive dissonance, essentially getting 217 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: two messages maybe one spoken and one implied uh, and 218 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: not knowing what's real, not feeling safe, not feeling genuine 219 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: love and affection, And so as that child gets older, 220 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: she ends up turning around. David and Allen uses the 221 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: phrase a lot like they're giving as good as they 222 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: get in terms of BPD developing in a child, they 223 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: turn around and invalidate everything the parent does, filling the 224 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: role of the so called spoiler. Basically, as she gets older, 225 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: the child remains dependent on the parents to a agree, 226 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: even as a young adult or an adult, allowing the 227 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: parents to remain obsessed with her wow at the same 228 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: time belittling everything the parents try to do for her, 229 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: and the parents, you know, can't do anything right in 230 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: this situation. But the thing is, this is a learned behavior. 231 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: You've grown up in this invalidating environment. You strike out 232 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: by invalidating the invalidating parent, and then you end up 233 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: feeling that same quote spoiler role in other relationships, not 234 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: surprisingly your romantic relationships. Yeah, and which also reminded me 235 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: of pickup artistry terminology because it sounds a lot like 236 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: familial negging, like drawing someone in by continually belittling them, 237 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: and that becomes sort of the very unhealthy glue that binds. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, um, 238 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: And it's interesting the patterns that emerge that are pretty consistent. 239 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: This is coming from the National Institutes of Health as well. 240 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: People with BPD are significantly more likely to see their 241 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: mother as distant or overprotective in their relationship with her 242 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: full of conflict, while the father tends to be seen 243 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: as less involved and more distant. And so a caregiver's 244 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: emotional denial of a child's experiences becomes a huge predictor 245 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: of BPD. And that's what it means to say an 246 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: invalidating environment. It's the emotional denial of a child's experience. 247 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: So is it we should all blame our parents basically basically, 248 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: but they have to be neurological factors going on as 249 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: well that might um sort of predicate this sort of 250 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: reaction to emotional and sensitivity or emotional denial. I should say, 251 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: I mean yes, absolutely, and and I wish I knew 252 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: more about it, especially in terms of the amygdala and seratonin. Um, 253 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: but my my thinking just being a total lay person 254 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: podcast or having read a bunch of stuff about BPD, 255 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: would be like, um, well, what did their parents do 256 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: and what did their parents do? Because stuff does get 257 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: passed down, emotional baggage and the way that we treat 258 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: each other does get passed down. This is what frightens 259 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: my womb, Caroline, this is what does like sent my 260 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 1: uterus hysterical. This just bouncing around like pawing in there. 261 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: Um no, this is this is why I like legit. 262 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: This is why I say that everybody should go to therapy, 263 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,959 Speaker 1: because there are things like I will get in fights 264 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: with my boyfriend or whatever, and it brings up stuff 265 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: and it's like, oh I I have literally never dealt 266 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, it's amazing how often mom and dad 267 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: are in the room, whether you invited him there or not. Seriously, 268 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: I mean that sounds creepy, and it is. It is. 269 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: It is. But this kind of research that we're talking about, 270 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: this understanding of VPD, is relatively new, and when we 271 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: come back from a quick break, we're going to look 272 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: at how we came to this point, because it took 273 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: a little while for the medical community to identify and 274 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: begin to wrap their heads around what this really means. 275 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: So the term borderline personality disorder UH used to be 276 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: sort of a waste basket term. People actually called it 277 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: a waste basket term. How rude Stephanie Tanner would say, um, 278 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: because psychiatrists, psychologist researchers were sort of perplexed by the 279 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: set of behaviors that they were seeing. It was very 280 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: common and so anyway, let's let's look into the history 281 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: of the development of this diagnosis. In nineteen thirties, the 282 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: term borderline personality is coined, and it's called borderline as 283 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: a reference to being on the border between neurosis and psychosis, 284 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 1: and analysts at this time thought that people with neuroses 285 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: we're treatable, but people with psychosis were not. And to 286 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: clarify between neurosis and psychosis, because I needed to be clarified, 287 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: neuroses and psychoses. Neuroses are what I have. Means a 288 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: mild mental illness is not caused by organic disease involving 289 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: symptoms of stress, so things like depression, anxiety, obsessive behavior, hypochondria, 290 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: but not a radical loss of touch with reality, whereas 291 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: psychosis or psychosis used in the plural um. This is 292 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: a severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are 293 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: so impaired that you really lose touch with reality. Yeah, 294 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: and so this this idea of what borderline personality disorder 295 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: or what the borderline group of patients is is not 296 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: really an accurate description. But doctors just basically didn't know 297 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: what to do with these people. Um, so why did 298 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: they think that this is what borderline personality disorder or 299 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: at the time, just borderline patients were. It's because some 300 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: people with VPD have brief psychotic episodes, so experts thought 301 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: of it as just an atypical version of other existing conditions. 302 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: And then it's in ninety eight that we get American 303 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: psychoanalyst aid Off Stern who first describes the symptoms that 304 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: now make up borderline personality disorder. He said that this 305 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: quote borderline group of patients is extremely difficult to handle 306 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: effectively by any psychotherapeutic method, writing that these folks suffer 307 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: from effective narcissistic malnutrition. In other words, their parents didn't 308 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: give them that sense of security from being genuinely loved 309 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: when they were growing up. And the common view in 310 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: Stern's era was that BPD was a modified form of schizophrenia, 311 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: so they would point to certain patients tendencies to regress 312 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: into what they called borderline schizophrenia amid unstructured situations. Well so, 313 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: not too long after that, in the nineteen forties we 314 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: get a really interesting figure in Helen Deutsch. She left 315 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: Europe a mid World War two UH and was a 316 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: controversial figure. She still remains kind of a controversial figure, 317 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: but she contributed a lot to our understanding, or our 318 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: early understanding of what BPD was. And so Helen Deutsch 319 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: is a psychoanalyst. She was the first woman that Freud 320 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: ever analyzed, and ended up after that training under him 321 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: to become the first woman to lead a psycho analysis 322 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: clinic in Vienna, and in nineteen forty four she published 323 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: The Psychology of Women, in which she said that femininities 324 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,360 Speaker 1: three essential traits are narcissism, passivity, and masochism. And it's 325 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: because of this idea that Second Waivers called her a 326 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: traitor to her sex and Helen Deutsch was like, no, 327 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: I'm not listen. I'm just trying to call it like 328 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: I see it with Royden's psycho analysis, and listen, I'm 329 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: an outspoken advocate for legal abortion and also too in 330 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: Vienna she worked to organize women workers and protested the 331 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: University of Vienna law schools ban on women's students. So 332 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: she was like, wait, no, come on, come on, I'm 333 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: pro women. I'm just you know, it sounds like a 334 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: history episode waiting to happen. It is Deutsch might have 335 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: to stop by or some analysis. Wells moved back two 336 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: years before The Psychology of Women was published, and in 337 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: nine two Deutche pens an article that modern psychiatrist Michael 338 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: Ston says laid the foundation for the contemporary psycho analytic 339 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:05,239 Speaker 1: formulations of the borderline. Basically, she described a group of 340 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: women patients who seemed normal, like on the outside, they 341 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: seem normal, but lacked a depth and a warmth and 342 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: had an inner emptiness. She called them as if personalities. 343 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: Is this is this an early reference to Cluness? I 344 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: know that is the first thing I thought. Yeah, Share 345 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: Horowitz's portrait was on the front page of of this 346 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: this groundbreaking paper. And I like how she uh, and 347 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: I like how she acknowledges that as if is not 348 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: the most eloquent way to phrase it. But she essentially said, listen, 349 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: let's just this is the best we can do for this. 350 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: So what does as if mean well. She says that 351 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: the reason she used this quote unoriginal label for this woman, 352 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: specifically this woman, um, is that when you talk to her, 353 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: or look at her, or interact with her, you get 354 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: quote the inescapable impression that the individual's whole relationship to 355 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: life has something about it which is lacking in genuineness 356 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: and yet outwardly runs along as if it were complete. 357 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: And she says, anybody, not even a psychiatrist, would eventually 358 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: look at this person, having interacted with them for a while, 359 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: and and say like, what's wrong with you? Where? Where 360 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: is the depth? And she says that this, this question 361 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: of where is your depth? Where is the warmth? Is 362 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: that they have a quote highly plastic readiness to mold 363 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: themselves to their surrounding environment. And that hearkens back to 364 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: what we said from the National Institutes of Health about 365 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: not having that strong or stable sense of identity, about 366 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: being constantly ready to mold yourself to your situation, which 367 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: probably had a lot to do with living in an 368 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: invalidating environment with parents who might not be sending you 369 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: consistent messages, Caroline, all of which are themes of the 370 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: movie Clueless Perfect. It all comes together, um, but yeah, 371 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: she she thought that this group of people was pretty confusing, 372 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,479 Speaker 1: as did pretty much all psychiatrists at the time, and 373 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: she posited that the as if personality might be a 374 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: phase leading to schizophrenia. But she points out her patients 375 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: do not belong among the commonly accepted forms of neurosis 376 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: and they're too well adjusted to really be called psychotics. 377 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: So again, people still in the forties are like, I 378 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 1: don't know what to do with these people. And in 379 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: the fifties they're like, hey, the war is over and 380 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: this is a waste basket term. No, really that that 381 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: that is exactly what was happening. And it's not until 382 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies that borderline starts to become something 383 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: more than jess a colloquialism among psychoanalysts. It becomes clearer 384 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: and clearer that the disorder is not related to schizophrenia, 385 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: which seems like it's that's a huge development in this 386 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: and psychiatrists start to recognize borderline patients stable instability as 387 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: they call it, as well as abandonment fears, desperate need 388 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: to attach to others as transitional objects, as well as 389 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: unstable or distorted senses of self and others and the 390 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: reliance on splitting themselves UM between like good and bad qualities, 391 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: everything's either great or awful. It sounds like, I mean 392 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: the world and yourself are all in black and white terms. Yeah, 393 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: it goes back to that commonly repeated I think it's 394 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: actually a book title about borderline personality disorder that's I 395 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: hate you, don't leave me. It's you're either everyone in 396 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: your life is either like great and wonderful and a 397 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: goddess and you're you're my best friend, or just like, 398 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: I hate you, You're the skum of the earth. Get 399 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: away from me, and that that's basically what splitting is 400 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: UM And in nineteen sixty six, psychiatrists Richard Chessick notes 401 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: that borderline patients are on the periph free of psychology 402 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: and society. He's one of many UM researchers at the 403 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: time who are basically like still putting their hands up, 404 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: like I don't know, they're just sort of out there. 405 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: But he also divides men and women along lines of 406 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: VPDs manifestations that we still see today in research, and 407 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: he says that the borderline or quote unquote pan neurotic 408 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: group was mostly women, while the group struggling with addictions 409 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: was mostly men, and everyone that he looked at had 410 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: received treatment with with few results. And so this is 411 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: an observation that we will talk about more in terms 412 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: of like common manifestations today, that it's still kind of 413 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: divided along those lines, with women getting diagnosed with the quote, 414 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: you know, the more neurotic issues of anxiety and depression, 415 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: with men more often manifesting their BPD with substance abuse issues. 416 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: And it's not until nineteen eighty that it's first listed 417 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 1: as a diagnosable illness in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual 418 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: for Mental Disorders. Is this the d s M three, 419 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: And it included the qualifier that it's overwhelmingly more common 420 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: in women. Hello gender, But is it really because, as 421 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: we've learned so many times on the podcast, uh the 422 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,479 Speaker 1: even though the d s M is nicknamed the mental 423 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: health Bible, there have been a number of times that 424 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: it has been proven fallible. And that's something that we 425 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: learn more about in the nineteen nineties from psychiatrists Marcia 426 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: and Linum who starts to develop some therapy around this. Yeah, 427 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: she's another huge name in borderline personality research. She develops 428 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: dialectical behavioral therapy, which is a type of cognitive behavioral 429 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: therapy to treat chronically suicidal BPD patients. And this therapy 430 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: focuses on mindfulness, distressed tolerance, and emotional regulation. And we 431 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: were reading a first person account of living with the 432 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: p D over on cracked um. And so not only 433 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: was that really enlightening and very interesting to read, but 434 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: the comments under it, some of the comments under it 435 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: were heartbreaking. And I know, we say, you know, never 436 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: read the comments, but like these were actually very enlightening 437 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: as well. A lot of people who have either lived 438 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: with BPD or been related to, or dated or married 439 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: people with bp D really chimed in and had some 440 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: great things to say. One commenter, who describes him or 441 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: herself as very very lucky uh says that they found 442 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: a therapist who specialized in DBT dialectical behavior therapy, which 443 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: they describe as the closest thing the psychiatric community has 444 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: to a silver bullet for bp D UM. They go 445 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: on to describe it as having kind of a hand 446 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: holding approach to treatment that it says, hey, guys, you've 447 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: been poorly equipped in your mental toolbox to deal with 448 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: certain things in life in terms of relationships, reactions, emotions, 449 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: everything is a little bit dialed up to high. And 450 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: so you essentially take classes, so to speak, on working 451 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: through those extreme reactions to things and learn how to 452 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: interact with people in a healthy way. And so that 453 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: commoner goes on to say, you know, like we have 454 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: to take classes to learn how normal people act. But 455 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: that's just how it is, and DBT is, like this 456 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: commoner was saying a huge deal for people with borderline 457 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: personality disorder because just regular therapy or regular counseling doesn't 458 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: really dive deep enough to sort of get to the 459 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: root of those um dysfunctional relationships that may have sparked 460 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: the condition. And one thing too that jumped out to 461 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: me in that comment was how DVT also teaches alternatives 462 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: to destructive behaviors. And so the commenter wrote, quote read 463 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: cut back on the cutting, seriously, you aren't doing yourself 464 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: any favor. So these kinds of things that on the 465 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: outside we might be able to identify as oh course 466 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: that's self destructive and unhealthy and harmful. Those our behaviors 467 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: that have to be not only unlearned, but also probably 468 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: replaced with healthier alternatives. So it's it's really fascinating to 469 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: learn about, UM that different kind of therapeutic approach that 470 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: is starting to develop in the nineties and also happening 471 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: in the nineties UM is that finally we have a 472 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: recognition of the effects of childhood trauma and abuse, specifically 473 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: sexual abuse and even more specifically among girls and women. Yes, 474 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: psychiatrist Judith Herman in the interview said that sexual abuse 475 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: has been taboo re pressed for so long that it's 476 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: now entering our consciousness in a very dialectical, polarized way. 477 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: It has to if it threatens establishment views, it should 478 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: because therapists have really missed the boat in an important way, 479 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: one that was predictable in a male dominated profession with 480 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: a female patient population. So for Herman, this whole thing 481 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: is clearly more about external events triggering by borderline personality 482 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: disorder than an issue of character and personality defaults. She 483 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: is one of the doctors who thinks that it's a 484 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: form of PTSD and or an adaptation to trauma, and 485 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: she also has the interesting point that many of the 486 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: symptoms associated with the diagnoses received by women who were 487 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: victims of sexual abuse, including not only borderline but also 488 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: bipolar among other things, we're all once under the category 489 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: of hysteria. And so her theory is that here are 490 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: these women having normal reactions to abnormal situations in life, 491 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: and that we are living in a society that's hostile 492 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: to victims, and so we're essentially pathologizing victimhood. But it 493 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: should also be noted too that a lot of the 494 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: I mean, because she's talking about this, some of the 495 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: more contemporary studies we were reading underscored how um child 496 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: abuse or sexual abuse is not a necessary, you know, 497 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: qualifier for borderline personality disorders. So I mean, she arguing 498 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: that it doesn't she doesn't think it exists or in 499 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: the subset of this populous abused population, that maybe jumping 500 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: to the conclusion of borderline is misguided. As I understand it, 501 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: it's more along the lines of among women and girls 502 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: who have been abused, uh, the rush to diagnose them 503 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: with a mental health condition is perhaps rash, and instead 504 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: we need to look at the culture that creates abusers 505 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: and the culture that essentially is disgusted with victims and 506 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: blames victims. And so I think she goes on to 507 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: talk about the early days of psychoanalysis and that nobody 508 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: dealt with abuse of any kind really, and it was 509 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: all just like, what have you you done? You know, 510 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: why are you hysterical? What have you done to lead 511 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: yourself into this situation? Not what has happened around you 512 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: that might contribute to these symptoms. But moving away just 513 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: from looking at girls and expanding our view to both 514 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: men and women, we have to ask whether borderline personality 515 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: disorder manifests itself differently in men versus women. Yeah, because 516 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: earlier we mentioned how that first d s M definition, UM, 517 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: you know, specified it to women. But I mean, it 518 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: turns out that, you know, it also affects a lot 519 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: of men. It doesn't actually affect um more women than men. 520 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: But borderline personality disorder related impulses are different between men 521 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: and women. And this is coming from some research published 522 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: in the American Journal of Psychiatry as well as innovations 523 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: in Clinical Neuroscience UM, which highlighted how substance use disorders 524 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: were more common among male patient whereas eating disorders or 525 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: more common among female patients. But it's not black and white. 526 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: About half of those female patients had abuse substances at 527 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: some point, and about a fifth of the male patients 528 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: had a history of serious eating disorders, and men were 529 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: also likelier to have had an explosive temperament and more 530 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: novelty seeking behavior, which isn't terribly surprising when we think 531 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: about testosterone in the brain and risk taking behavior and 532 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: all that. Yeah, and some of the comorbidities differ as well. 533 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: Women are more likely to have mood, anxiety and post 534 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: traumatic stress disorders, whereas men are more likely to experience antisocial, statistic, narcissistic, paranoid, 535 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:44,240 Speaker 1: and passive aggressive personality disorders. And so as one might expect, 536 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: the treatment histories of men and women differ. Men are 537 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: more likely to have had a history of treatment for 538 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: substance abuse, whereas women's treatments have historically been characterized more 539 00:35:54,840 --> 00:36:00,720 Speaker 1: often by psychotherapy and medication. And to again us, probably 540 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: the biggest myth outfare about borderline is that recent research 541 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: has discounted any higher prevalence of it among women, And 542 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: again that's coming from innovations in clinical neuroscience. But why 543 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: did we used to think that more women had it? 544 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 1: Was it because of the whole hysteria kind of thing. Well, 545 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,720 Speaker 1: for a while, and and maybe even now to an extent, 546 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: there were more women simply getting diagnosed with that um 547 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 1: as we see in a lot of mental health conditions 548 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: psychological conditions where more women come forward and ask for help, 549 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: whereas more men maybe are ending up in those substance 550 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: abuse arenas. But according to that study that Christian just mentioned, 551 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 1: for a couple of decades now, investigators have found that 552 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: some clinicians have a subtle gender bias when it comes 553 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: to diagnosing bp D. So perhaps that psychiatrist or that 554 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: psychologist or therapist is more likely if you're a woman 555 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: exhibiting some of these behaviors to pinpoint bp D as 556 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: opposed to either looking deeper looking for something else, or 557 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: perhaps they're just not as ready to diagnose it in 558 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: men as they are in women. And there also seems 559 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: to be a sampling bias, which makes total sense when 560 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: you consider the traditional settings for prevalent studies. Which makes 561 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: sense when you consider how the traditional settings for prevalence 562 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: studies used to assess you know how common something is 563 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: among a population are psychiatric or mental health treatment facilities. 564 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: So if women with BPD perform more self harm behavior 565 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: and wind up in mental health treatment facilities more often 566 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: than men, then the studies will find a higher population 567 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: of women. Meanwhile, you have more men suffering from substance 568 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: abuse and antisocial features, which leads them often to treatment 569 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: program ms or jail. So you have guys being under 570 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: reported in those mental health settings. Essentially, the dudes just 571 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: weren't being counted for a while, and I think that's unfortunate. 572 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: I mean, to make a general statement, I mean, I 573 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: just think it's so sad that anybody would possibly receive 574 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: the wrong diagnosis or not enough attention for the condition 575 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,760 Speaker 1: that they're suffering from, simply because it's misunderstood or stigmatized, 576 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: or the the way a person is acting based on 577 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 1: what's going on in their brains and their bodies and 578 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,919 Speaker 1: their chemistry. It's it's making them act a certain way, 579 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: and so perhaps they're going to jail instead of getting 580 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,280 Speaker 1: proper mental health treatment that they need. But speaking of treatment, 581 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: treatment does exist. People with BPD can get better. We 582 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: already talked about dialectical behavior therapy, and and that is 583 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: a big deal talk therapy, especially therapy that falls under 584 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: that cognitive behavioral therapy umbrella helps people identify and change 585 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: the core beliefs and behaviors underla ing their inaccurate perceptions 586 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: about themselves and others. So in addition to DBT, there's 587 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: also something called schema focus therapy that helps people reframe 588 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: the way they see themselves, overcoming those negative self images 589 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: that were instilled in childhood. And we mentioned earlier that 590 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 1: there isn't any specific medication to target BPD alone. Um, 591 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 1: But there are medications obviously to address symptoms like anxiety, aggression, 592 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: or depression, but they might not be effective overall. But 593 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,720 Speaker 1: there was one interesting dietary finding. Um, there's a study 594 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: on thirty women with borderline personality disorder which showed that 595 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 1: Omega three fatty assets may help reduce symptoms of aggression 596 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 1: and depression. So so fish, oil supplements and lots of salmon, 597 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,879 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna eat. Yeah, well, we should be eating 598 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 1: fish all the time anyway for its self benefits in general, 599 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: except for sea bass being overfished right now. Really stay 600 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,240 Speaker 1: away from sea bath. I have sea baths in the freezer. 601 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 1: That these are Mega three fatty acids. CAROLINEA did seems 602 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: highly effective. The study found that it was as well 603 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 1: tolerated as commonly prescribed mood stabilizers and not surprisingly had 604 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: a few side effects. I mean, that's so fascinating, and 605 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: I would love to hear from someone in the medical 606 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: community who could potentially enlighten us a little bit more 607 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: on that, because the there's a skeptical part of me 608 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: that's just going like, is that some weird pseudoscience thing? 609 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,800 Speaker 1: But oh and it's thirty people, very very small sample size, 610 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: so who knows what else could have been at work there. Um, 611 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: But I mean, I think it just goes to show 612 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: that if indeed that was accurate, and this is something 613 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: that could be extrapolated to more people. It's just so 614 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,720 Speaker 1: fascinating to think about those very delicate connections between nature 615 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: and nurture and things that were born with things that 616 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: we inherit from our parents, and then the way that 617 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,839 Speaker 1: those things can be set off and develop as we grow. Um. 618 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 1: And I think it's so important to stress how much 619 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: talk therapy, especially that intensive talk therapy, can help people 620 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:19,320 Speaker 1: really root out they're sort of dysfunctional, damaging behaviors, damaging 621 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: to themselves, but also their relationships. Yeah, and and we 622 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 1: hope that this podcast Primer has often offered, you know, 623 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,760 Speaker 1: a little bit of clarity on something that it seems 624 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 1: like a lot of people misunderstand. I know, that I 625 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,760 Speaker 1: had a lot of preconceived notions about going into the research, 626 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: which turned out to be just based on pure stereotype. Really, um, So, 627 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: we're so curious to hear from listeners on this who 628 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,439 Speaker 1: might deal with this in their lives and in any 629 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: type of way. If you would like to share your experience, 630 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,240 Speaker 1: you can email us mom Stuff at how stuff Works 631 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 1: dot com. Um. You can also tweet us at mom 632 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast or message us on Facebook. And we got 633 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you. So I 634 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Katrina on our podcast a 635 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: while back on Women in Construction um, and she writes, 636 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 1: I apologize that I'm just not getting around to writing 637 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: this email in response to her Women in Construction podcast, 638 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: but I often listen to them weeks behind, and I 639 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 1: also listened to two other podcasts from housewark dot com. 640 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: And side note, Katrina, no need to apologize it is 641 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: it's hard for me to keep up with my podcast, 642 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: que um. So she goes on to say, I just 643 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: wanted to say that I think you did a fabulous 644 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: job really covering what women go through in a highly 645 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: male dominated field. I am an entertainment rigger in Las Vegas, 646 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: which is an extremely male dominated field due to the 647 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,359 Speaker 1: nature of the work. I've only ever met four other 648 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: ladies who rig and only two of them are on 649 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 1: the same level of capability, certification, or general knowledge as 650 00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,920 Speaker 1: I am. I did want to say that I know 651 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 1: of one thing. It's been very difficult for me. Although 652 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: I can personally say I have never experienced sexual harassment, 653 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,320 Speaker 1: my boyfriend has at my expense. See, my boyfriend and 654 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: I met while working the same place rigging and went 655 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 1: on to work in multiple venues for multiple companies together 656 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 1: with the understanding between us that it was easier for 657 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,760 Speaker 1: me to be respected and garner respect for my physical 658 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 1: capabilities by not letting our coworkers know we were a 659 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,799 Speaker 1: couple at work. We were just two co workers and 660 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: were able to keep this up for over a year. 661 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: The entire link of that year, however, my boyfriend often 662 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,359 Speaker 1: came home upset and telling me he had to put 663 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,759 Speaker 1: up with listening to our coworkers talk about trying to 664 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,840 Speaker 1: hit on me, sleep with me my breast, et cetera. 665 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: And he felt he couldn't say anything without jeopardizing the 666 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: respect I had worked so hard for, and without hurting 667 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,279 Speaker 1: his own job. For reacting. I always thanked him. It 668 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: made sure he knew how much I loved and appreciate 669 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 1: the sacrifice from him. And when we moved, we were 670 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: finally able to be in a work environment that allows 671 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: us to be a couple publicly and let our work 672 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 1: stand for itself individually. That being said, as women are 673 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: so from the targets of such behavior and sexual harassment 674 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,719 Speaker 1: and how it affects a woman is so typically the 675 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: topic discussed. I just wonder how many other loving boyfriends 676 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 1: and husbands are out there suffering the expense of trying 677 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 1: not to hurt the respect and career paths of the 678 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 1: women they love who may be in the same line 679 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: of work. And I will say that with that like, 680 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,320 Speaker 1: kudos to your boyfriend for for dealing with that, absolutely, 681 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,399 Speaker 1: But I think I think that guys, whether they are 682 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 1: romantically in relationships with women on the job or not, 683 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,400 Speaker 1: have it like so much power, arguably even more power 684 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: than women on those job sites to say, hey, that's nonsense, 685 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 1: let's shut it down, because as we all know, guys 686 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:51,880 Speaker 1: can and do lead by example as well. So curious 687 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 1: to hear from fellas about that, because I'm sure that 688 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,440 Speaker 1: there can be risks associated with being the one calling 689 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: out that kind of inappropriate behavior too, So let us 690 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: know your thoughts. But thanks so much Katrina for writing 691 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 1: in and and Rigging, which sounds like quite a job. Well, 692 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Ariel who says I 693 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,399 Speaker 1: absolutely love the podcast, though I don't get to listen 694 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,240 Speaker 1: as often as I like. As such, I am currently 695 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 1: catching up on past episodes and just finished enjoying your 696 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: interview with Nina McLaughlin, which made me think about my 697 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 1: self image as something of a handywoman. Though my husband 698 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,719 Speaker 1: and I do fall into stereotypical gender roles and that 699 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: he is the breadwinner and I am the main caregiver, 700 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 1: we also have something of a role reversal and that 701 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: he is the main man in the kitchen while I 702 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,720 Speaker 1: do most of the household repair work. As a fiercely 703 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: independent person, I've never been one to wait on another, 704 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,320 Speaker 1: whether it be male or female person, to do something 705 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,919 Speaker 1: for me, and so have enjoyed learning how to take 706 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,759 Speaker 1: on handy type projects myself. I even have my own 707 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: toolbox set apart from the general toolbox that houses the 708 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: basic hammers and screwdrivers, and if the threatened the men 709 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,319 Speaker 1: in my house broken fingers should I ever go looking 710 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: from one of my tools and find it missing. I 711 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,360 Speaker 1: love my husband dearly, but the man has lost the 712 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: power word for drill, the drill bits, and more than 713 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: a few other odd tools. Over the years, as a 714 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,360 Speaker 1: young driver, my father taught me basic car maintenance and 715 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,960 Speaker 1: I often helped with minor repairs when he would work 716 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,360 Speaker 1: on my car. Now, I am usually the first to 717 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,800 Speaker 1: notice something amiss in our vehicles, and with the Haynes 718 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: Manual a k a. Mechanics Bible as my dad called it, 719 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,400 Speaker 1: can often troubleshoot the problem even before I call the 720 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: auto shop. My mechanic loves the fact that he can 721 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,360 Speaker 1: talk to me about my vehicle and technical terms and 722 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,560 Speaker 1: doesn't have to sugarcoat the problem. I love hearing from 723 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: women who live and work in a man's world while 724 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 1: retaining their sense of femininity, bucking against perceived gender norms, 725 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: will still proudly holding true to the ones they hold. Dear, 726 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,720 Speaker 1: thanks for another amazing podcast, and thanks to you, Ariel. 727 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,359 Speaker 1: I read this email and was immediately like I have 728 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,879 Speaker 1: to do some learning, Like I need to learn how 729 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,279 Speaker 1: to do things that are technical and mechanical, and I 730 00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,840 Speaker 1: don't know anything about my car. And here at my 731 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 1: way friend changes his oil aerial and he can like 732 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 1: fix his brake pads. I don't even know where your 733 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 1: brake pads. You know what, Caroline. I bet he'll teach you. 734 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,640 Speaker 1: He's offered, so you just have to say yes. Just 735 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 1: say yes to the dress. Wait, no, that's different, So 736 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:19,879 Speaker 1: yes to the brake pads, Caroline, Yes to the brake 737 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: pads in the oil change and I will just have 738 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,960 Speaker 1: to wear raggedy clothes when I do it because he 739 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,800 Speaker 1: always gets the dirty. But where is this is nice? Genie? 740 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 1: You get some cover rolls. I knew, I know you know. 741 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 1: I get some fancy cover alls. So basically, arial, what 742 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: I'm trying to tell you is that you're an inspiration 743 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,080 Speaker 1: and I appreciate your letter, and we appreciate all of 744 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: your letters. Mom. Stuff at how stuff works dot com 745 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,319 Speaker 1: is where you can send them and for a links 746 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: to all of our social media as well as all 747 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,960 Speaker 1: of our blogs, videos and podcasts. With our links to 748 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 1: our sources, you know where to go. It's stuff Mom 749 00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:03,520 Speaker 1: Never told You dot com For more on this and 750 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot 751 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:14,279 Speaker 1: com