WEBVTT - Bonus: The Disposable Camera 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:08.119 From My Heart Radio. This is missing on nine eleven, 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:10.879 the story of one woman who vanished on the eve 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:14.319 of history and my quest to find her. I'm your host, 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:53.159 John Wallzac. This is the sound of the lobby of 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:56.600 two World Trade Center, the South Tower, captured on August 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:01.560 one by sound engineer Benchia Ben, a film and TV 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.480 veteran whose credits include The Wire, Fargo and The Big Lebowski, 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:09.200 made twenty recordings that day. They stand out as high 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:13.839 quality audio artifacts. None have ever been published until now. 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:18.240 Close your eyes, listen. You're in the lobby of the 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:21.720 World Trade Center. You're in an elevator. Only two weeks 0:01:21.800 --> 0:02:47.079 before nine eleven. All right, m y y way. It 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:48.720 was the time when they have a tar event trying 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:54.840 to get thing. Only seventeen days later and again Darien 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.799 said that Will Trade said, yeah, you fellas have a 0:02:57.840 --> 0:02:59.840 tree one here you set up to where the building? 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.040 Can you go to pay that because we have injured 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:20.320 all over the place. Okay, all right, thank you, very 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:26.919 sick Billy want lobby getting up in the lobby of 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.000 two lobby and Bill okay, okay, we have like the 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.160 every big in fact, we have vengeance. Go over and 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:36.920 building four uh, billy everyday air grating, body works. They're 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:40.200 having numerous people were broken light who was the blood? 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:42.720 They want to know where we would pretty game in 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:46.240 the buildings so they can bring everybody down two World 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.720 in the lobby, the lobby. Okay, okay, all right, friend. 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.960 This recording was made at AM. By that point, thousands 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:58.840 of victims have been evacuated away from the towers, out 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.560 of the danger zone. But there was a triage area 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:04.240 set up in the South Tower lobby for victims who 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:11.280 couldn't walk. What snayha, they're helping. It's possible, but unlikely anyway. Yeah, 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.200 I'm looking to find out. I'm a Ragius kid nurse. 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.760 I'm currently working right now and I wanted to help out. 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.400 I know they have a triage place set up at 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.920 West Chamber. Yes, is there anything else? Uh? You know, 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.480 any you know path I could take to get there 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:29.000 at the help? Um, what are they doing? And they 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.400 calling in nurses or what? I don't think they're not 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:34.240 calling in nurses and das in here, right and it's 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:40.520 realized I haven't Yeah, no, now they're not calling us. 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:42.960 Who the dators into the site? You needed to stay 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.320 at the hospitals through all hospitals or want a hospital. Yeah, 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.520 they cure. You're working right now at Bassol. I'm working 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:52.280 in a in a hospital right now. I was going 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.480 to uh go there. Okay. Now they want over the 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.240 docks and right now they want all the dassors and 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:02.719 notions to stay at the Bassole. Okay, okay, right. First 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:06.440 responders wanted people out, not in, even if they were 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:12.360 well intentioned doctors or nurses. One more tape AM a 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:18.599 call from the south tower lobby the emergency two World 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.880 Trade Center. We have injured people in the lobby of 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.039 the building. They need medical attention. They're on the south 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.960 side of the building. However, they're not gonna be able 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:29.520 to come in that way. They have to figure away 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:31.320 into it because we've got the bree all over the 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:47.760 outside of the building. Okay, okay, uh that's two World 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:51.359 Trade Center, right, that's correct, Two World Trade Center, okay, okay. 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:53.400 And they're on the south side of the lobby. Actually 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.720 have more than one occupant engine, but we have looks 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.040 like serious injuries. They got the guy sitting up on 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.239 a chair. I don't know how that happened, but Jerry 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:19.400 reported hold up the mn SO, hold on paper. That's wow. No, 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:30.560 I don't mean why we've got any and you in 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:36.080 the lobby. Yes, we all first floor Loop Street. It's 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:50.920 between Liberty Street and Church Street, the building and West Street. Well, 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.520 it's it's already a job, man, it's it's E. M. 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:58.200 S is not picking up. Okay, Well maybe you could 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.560 keep trying. I gave you my infrom and I kind 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:02.599 of gotta get gold. This was my job. Okay, Look, 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:10.680 we're sorry, Slarry, Bill, I S E. And what's the celephone? 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:21.360 Have you calling from? Seven? Okay? I supposed to be there. Okay, 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:28.200 you're welcome, bye, bye luck. Five minutes later, the tower collapsed. 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.960 Nine eleven may have been the most photographed event in history, 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.360 but nearly all footage was captured outside the towers. From inside, 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:43.040 we have nine one one calls, voicemail, dispatched tapes, oral histories, 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:47.160 and emails, but very few photos and videos. It's hard 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.600 to imagine now, but in two thousand one, no smartphones, 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:54.080 no social media. As it pertains to snay Ha. That's 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.640 critical because any image of her in the towers solves 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:02.080 this case. Surpri using Lee, there was no comprehensive list 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.200 of footage captured in the Towers on nine eleven, so 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:08.520 I made my own. In the end, I confirmed forty 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:12.920 five photos. Thirty three were taken by one man, John Labriola, 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.320 as he evacuated the North Tower, twelve were taken by 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:20.760 five other people, and two are unconfirmed. As for video, 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.080 we have dramatic footage from the North Tower captured by 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:28.400 French filmmaker Jewels not a plus one other short unconfirmed video. 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:34.640 So forty five confirmed photos, one confirmed video, to unconfirmed photos, 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:40.599 one unconfirmed video. That's it. The most complete account of 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:42.920 what it was like in the Towers on nine eleven 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.680 is a book called One and two Minutes by Jim 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.600 Dwyer and Kevin Flynn of the New York Times. It's 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.920 a remarkable work of narrative journalism. I read it twice. 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:55.600 Jim died last year. Kevin still works for the Times. 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.559 We focused on the floors that seem to have the 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:02.360 most substantial influence on the day, meaning the floors where 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.360 there are the planes that actually struck, and then the 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:09.559 floors above, and we split them up among the five reporters. 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.640 For example, I had the windows on the World, which 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.559 was the top of the of the North Tower, and 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:19.720 began to try to construct what had happened at Windows 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:23.120 on the World. I told you I located forty nine 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:26.800 photos and videos taken inside the towers during the attacks. 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.200 But there are two things I haven't told you. First, 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.199 at least one photo was taken out Windows on the 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.400 World on top of the North Tower, only fifteen minutes 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:39.560 before flight eleven hit the tower. It shows three men 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:43.360 at the risk Waters Financial Technology conference. It was taken 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.679 by a Bloomberg photographer who left right before the planehead 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.839 I don't know the photographer's name. Did they take any 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.880 other photos that morning, I don't know neither, just Kevin Flynn. 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.000 I never had the name of the photographer. Yeah, so 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.839 someone who took some pictures and then them developed. And 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.280 it may have been that Bloomberg just wanted to protect 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.680 the privacy of that person. Maybe they were upset about 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:09.640 having been there and escaped or whatever. But anyway, I 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.920 never got that name. Kevin and I also discussed snay 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.840 House case. The North Day footage is at least all 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:21.800 incompensing to the point where I think that she probably 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.960 would have reported in to the command desk had she arrived. 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.600 I mean, she sounds like she was a responsible person right, 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:31.839 And so I don't think she would just like have 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:36.160 freelance and gone up the stairs without talking to those people. 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:37.880 And I feel like she would have been captured on 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:42.120 camera in the North Tower. So I think that looking 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:45.240 for her in the South tower makes more sense because 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.760 there's no footage of the South tower. Basically Kevin saying 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:51.880 that if ran into the North Tower, she likely would 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.760 have gone to the lobby command center. Then day footage 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:57.079 gives us a good view of the North Tower lobby 0:10:57.480 --> 0:10:59.800 and there's no sign of snay huh. So if she 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.319 in into the towers, it's likely she went to the 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.439 South tower. And there are zero photos and no video 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:09.679 taken in the South Tower lobby besides Labriola and the 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.200 nor Day Brothers. I don't think that there and there's 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:15.960 certainly some photographs from outside the building from taking from 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.640 the news photographers, but actually inside the building, I don't 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.360 think that there's much beyond that. Yeah, So I've been 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.480 able to document, well, the vast majority of what exists, 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.040 like you said, is the no Day Brothers and John 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:31.920 Labriola's photos. Past that, I've been able to document nine 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:37.719 other photographers and videographers, but all extremely limited many just 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:41.360 a single image from inside the building. From inside the building. 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.160 So I'm looking at it right now, and there are 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.520 three there's a videographer and two photographers. I haven't been 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:51.680 able to confirm, but what I have one picture from three, 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:57.839 from one from the one, five from to from the 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.559 sixty one, and then the Were you aware that the 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:06.319 FBI recovered a disposable camera at ground zero that included 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.599 images taken on the upper level of one of the 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:14.280 towers and developed the images after nine eleven. No, this 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.480 is the second thing I haven't told you. It's fascinated 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.559 me for eighteen years. Shortly after nine eleven, the FBI 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.240 located a disposable camera at ground zero in the pocket 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.199 of a man who jumped or fell from one of 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:32.280 the towers. No one I interviewed, authors, experts, curators knew 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.160 about these photos. I first heard about them in two 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:37.960 thousand three when I read a Baltimore Sun article by 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:43.240 Laura Sullivan profiling the FBI's Explosives Unit. Three paragraphs immediately 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.360 captivated me. I cut them out and saved them all 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:50.199 these years. Quote. There is one other piece of evidence 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:52.560 of the events leading to the collapse of the towers, 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:56.160 that few outside the unit. No of unit members found 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.679 a disposable camera and the pocket of a man who 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.439 jumped from one of the tower. When they developed the 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:05.480 film months later, investigators found a chilling chronology of the 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.840 man's experience that morning. The photos show the man, who 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.800 appears to be a construction worker, standing at the window 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:15.320 as the other tower burns behind him. The photos, which 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:17.880 include pictures he took as well it's a few taken 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:21.839 by someone else, also capture other jumpers falling. The man 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:25.800 looks stricken, his face one of shock and disbelief. His 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.040 family is aware of the photos, investigators said, but it's 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.439 not asked to see them. The units investigators were initially 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.280 confused by the film because the last pictures on the 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.360 roll show the man laughing among friends at a birthday party. 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:41.160 They took the film to a photo expert in the unit, 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:45.040 who explained that disposable camera film is developed in reverse. 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.920 Laura is now an award winning investigative journalist for NPR. 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:16.760 She wrote that article at the dawn of social media. 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:20.160 It was quickly forgotten, but it's stuck with me for 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.680 more than a decade. I've tried to get the photos 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:26.360 from the FBI. I failed, And I know what you're thinking, 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.200 Why do you need these photos? If they're graphic and upsetting, 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.840 If the man's family doesn't want to see them, why 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.960 should you to me? There there's a pruder film of 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:39.520 nine eleven, the only photos captured high in the towers, 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:43.160 presumably above the point of impact during the attacks before 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:47.200 the towers fell. Their singular and unique a point of view, 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:51.360 unlike any other documenting a monumental moment in American history. 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.040 There's an ethical debate to be had about which, if any, 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.640 should be published, but that's for a future date because 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.600 so far the FBI has refused to release them. In fact, 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.920 it appears the FBI lost the photos, raising critical questions 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:11.160 about how the bureau catalog and handled nine eleven evidence. 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:15.840 Since I filed multiple Foyer requests trying to get the photos, 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:20.560 every time the same answer no. First, the FBI said 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.320 it couldn't find any responsive records. Then it said that 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:27.000 I didn't reasonably describe them. I appealed the latest denial. 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.320 The Department of Justice denied my appeal. The d o 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:34.320 J said my request would quote require the FBI to 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.880 conduct an unreasonably burdensome search. Your request is not reasonably 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.840 described because you did not characterize the record SAW it 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.560 in such a way that they could be located without 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:50.080 individually pulling and reviewing thousands of files. End quote. That's 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:53.880 a crop of shit. We're talking about extremely unique, one 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:57.840 of a kind photos eleven evidence, but the FBI can't 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.760 find them without individually pulling and reviewing thousands of files. 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:06.880 So two possibilities here. Either the FBI is stonewalling or 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:11.040 the FBI lost them. Yes, lost. If I ask you 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:13.600 to find your car keys and you can't locate them 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.680 without digging through a thousand boxes, what would you call that? 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:21.360 Last year, I got fed up, so I emailed FBI 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.520 Director Christopher Ray. His office bounced me to the Public 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.480 Affairs office, which bounced me back to the FBI's in 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.920 transigent FOIA office. Here's what I wrote. Quote. I'm seeking 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.120 images developed from a disposable camera recovered as part of 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.800 a massive investigation of immense public interest. The images were 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.920 already shown to a reporter. I described them in detail. 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.280 They are extremely unique, and yet the FBI's response is 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:47.800 that the records SAW are not detailed enough to find 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:51.680 their location. How is that possible unless I'm missing something, 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.040 and I'm trying to give the bureau a fair chance 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:57.240 to respond here. I interpret that as either stonewalling my 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.560 request or that the bureaus system for story nine eleven 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.440 evidence is so disorganized it can't locate these images, in 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:08.240 which case, past these specific photos, this becomes a bigger story. 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:13.280 The FBI responded, quote, good afternoon. The records are not 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.480 detailed enough to find their location. As such, it would 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:20.560 be unduly burdensome to pull and review thousands of files, respectfully, 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:26.359 Public Information Officer, The FBI has consistently been a nightmare 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.000 to work with, and not just in this case. It's 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:33.119 been sued multiple times over its FOIA practices. Regardless of 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.840 your politics, you should care about this because nobody benefits 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.399 when the nation's premier law enforcement agency decides more or 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.040 less that it doesn't give a shit about FOIA requests. 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:46.880 To learn more about the disposable camera photos, I wrote 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:49.879 to Donald sac Laban in two thousand three. He was 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:53.160 the agent in charge of the FBI's explosives unit. He's 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:55.840 the person who showed the photos to Laura Sullivan, the 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:59.560 Baltimore Sun reporter. Sac Laban is now in prison in 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:03.200 twenty thirteen, he pleaded guilty to both child porn charges 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.800 and to leaking classified information. I mailed him a letter 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:10.840 in prison. He wrote back, quote, Mr Wallsac, I don't 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.080 think there's much I can add to your information about 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:16.280 those photos. As best I can recall, the film slash 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:19.520 camera was found at the w TC site and sent 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:22.040 to our lab for processing. I mentioned it in the 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.520 Baltimore Sun article, mostly because it was a unique item. 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.600 I do not recall the name of any person associated 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.720 with the camera. There were hundreds of thousands of photos 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.520 related to the nine eleven investigation. I imagine these images 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.399 are tucked away in some storage bin. Good luck with 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:43.840 your endeavors, sincerely, Donald suck Laban, I wrote again, pushing 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:48.760 for details. He responded, Dear Mr Wallzac, as you may know, 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.600 I'm currently serving a term of incarceration for disclosure of 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.080 national security information. While the items you seek may not 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.399 be classified, I still do not feel comfortable discussing them. 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.280 I the interview to the Baltimore Sun with the full 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.920 knowledge and authorization of the FBI. I no longer hold 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:10.919 that authority. Good luck with your endeavors, sincerely, Donald suck Lavin. 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.720 There was one final person to interview the only civilian 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:19.440 to ever see these photos. I'm Laura Sullivan. I'm a 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.399 correspondent with NPR. I started out as a print reporter 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.840 and one of my first real jobs in journalism was 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.200 as a two year intern at the Baltimore Sun, and 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.840 that turned into a real job at the Baltimore Sun, 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.280 which is where I was on nine eleven. I was 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:39.520 a reporter in Baltimore. So I was covering. This is 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.199 back in the heyday of newspapers, and we had all 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.160 kinds of resources, and there was actually a beat where 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:48.320 you covered the National Security Agency in the Naval Academy, 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.920 which were like our local agencies in that area of 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.520 our of the Baltimore Sun readers, and so that was 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:57.639 my beat, and I remember the morning sort of hearing 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.720 it on the radio. Actually, I mean as print reporters, 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.040 you know, we sort of started day late and ended 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.840 it late, and I remember jumping in my car and 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.879 sort of driving down to Annapolis, not really sure what 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:11.360 I was going to be covering at all. The next 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.040 day they sent me to Washington and I never left 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.800 after that, And so I started covering the Justice Department, Homeline, 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:22.199 Security Department, and all kinds of terrorism and the FBI. 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:26.680 And it was crazy. It was every single day for 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:29.560 for months and months and months. It just never ended. 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:32.320 And so you know that brings us to this this article. 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:34.640 So I email you out of the blue this year 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:36.840 and I say, I want to talk to you about 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:38.959 an article you wrote eighteen years ago. Did you kind 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.159 of just wonder like, what what is this? What is this? 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.440 It's like, oh my god, what did I possibly right? 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:49.840 What did I do? Now? Been some who? I mean, 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:51.960 you're just you're saying, oh god, it must have I 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:57.720 must have just done something crazy twenty years ago. So 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:00.960 on December one, two thousand three, you wrote this article 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.520 for The Sun headlined FBI team puts together pieces from 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:07.400 scenes of terror bombings. When I asked you about the article, 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:09.200 did you remember it immediately or did you have to 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.520 go dig around for it? I had a sudden flash 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:19.359 of being in the FBI's evidence area, and I thought, 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:21.720 I think there was some sort I did some sort 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.040 of story about the thing that came to my mind 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:29.520 when you said something about the camera was picturing Mohammed 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.520 addas suitcase. I don't know. I was like, I don't 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.359 really remember this story at all. I'm not sure I 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:37.840 remember too much about it, but I had a flash 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:40.840 of Mohammed out as suitcase, and I was like, I 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:42.560 think there was some sort of story. And then I 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.040 went and looked for it. I couldn't find it. It 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:46.720 was like I didn't know what the search for. I 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.720 was like Laura Sullivan's son camera, Like it was like 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.320 there was no way to even find the story. So 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:56.800 then thankfully you sent it to me, So then it 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:59.640 and then it came sort of rushing back. I don't remember, 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:02.160 you know, it's like you you just have little pieces. 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:04.440 You know, you've done thousands of stories, and I just 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:07.880 have little pieces of that. After I read the story, 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.760 I remember the room, I remember that suitcase. I don't 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:13.040 know why that left such an impression on me. I 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:15.480 think because it was like, you know, this it was 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:17.960 like brand new because I never made it onto the flight, 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:21.240 and you know, it just was so creepy. Here was 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:25.600 Mohammadada's suitcase. And then I remember him showing me the photos. 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:28.320 So walk me into that evidence bay. What was the 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:30.840 big cavernous warehouse? What? What do you remember of this? 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:33.560 The weirdest thing is I can't remember where I was 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:36.000 was I in Virginia. Was I in Maryland. I'm sure 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:37.600 I didn't get on a plane for this story. They 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:40.640 would have never paid for that. So it was somewhere 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:44.000 in the vicinity of d C. And I do remember 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:46.879 it took a long time to get these sort of 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:49.200 this sort of access to these interviews. But this was 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:51.960 my be, you know, covering the FBI. And I was 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.000 always asking to do features, especially when you're sort of 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.840 at the sun. You gotta fight against the big dogs 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:00.239 at the Times and the Post and and they're right, 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:02.680 always trampling all over your So the more features you do, 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:04.440 the more people you get to know. And so I 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:07.320 was always asking for things like this, And I was 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:09.959 always like taking random tours of things. Whenever they had 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:12.240 a tour, I was like, I'll go, and uh, you know, 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:14.680 blood Drive, I'll go. This is the kind of stuff 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:16.240 I did a lot of. And I remember it was 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:19.000 a giant room. It was very clean, and it was 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:22.280 very gray, that's my memory of it. I remember walking downstairs. 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:26.720 It was just like concrete and metal and big and 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:32.760 gray and open. And uh, I barely remember the the 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:36.399 guy Satchel Ben at all. And he comes across like 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:40.440 a really great character in my story. Sort of tragic 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:43.600 the way that ended. But then he just went through 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:46.920 the stuff. There was just piles of stuff, like like 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:52.000 plastic tubs, like labeled plastic tubs of stuff that they had, 0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:54.520 which I found riveting, just sort of like the little 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:57.879 details of the day. And then I remember him showing 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:02.560 me these photographs, which really struck me. The photographs themselves 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:06.760 weren't that these were not professional photos. These were just 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:10.320 sort of like they they weren't in an of them. 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:12.760 It was like a man in sort of a beige 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:15.639 outfit standing by a window. That's like my memory of 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:18.840 these photos. I remember the birthday party thing too, but 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:22.200 it wasn't like a dramatic photo. It was just sort 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:25.040 of the emotional pull of them that they were taken 0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:29.800 in this moment of just tragedy. And so I just 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:33.440 I don't know, they just always they that they resonated 0:24:33.520 --> 0:24:37.440 with me. It's interesting because so I've read this article 0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:40.000 when I was fifteen. I was on a Christmas vacation 0:24:40.160 --> 0:24:42.280 with my family and I saw it in the newspaper. 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:45.239 I'm so impressed you were reading the newspaper fifteen. Can 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:48.000 I just say, well, that's what I was gonna say 0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:50.120 it dates me too, because I actually cut it out 0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:52.720 of the paper. Um, I still have it somewhere. And 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:54.960 then all these years later I had to go figure 0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:57.399 out why I had these three paragraphs like who wrote this? 0:24:57.520 --> 0:25:01.040 Where did this come from? You know? But uh, and 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:03.119 that that was the light reading I was doing around 0:25:03.200 --> 0:25:05.960 Christmas in two thousand three. I mean, yeah, do you 0:25:06.080 --> 0:25:11.480 were in some kind of a dark place like terrible thing? 0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:15.879 It's stuck with me, I mean it. You know, all 0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:18.480 these years, I've saved that little piece of paper, so 0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:20.200 I wanted to talk to you more or less for 0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:22.800 the last eighteen years. You know what I find so 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:26.000 frustrating and reading this article now is the sentence that 0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:28.600 I wrote, apparently where I said his family is aware 0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:30.960 of the photos but has not asked to see them. 0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:33.840 I'm like, what, Like, I want to go back and 0:25:33.920 --> 0:25:36.040 inquire more about that. What do you mean they don't 0:25:36.040 --> 0:25:38.000 want to see them? Are you sure you've showed them? 0:25:38.040 --> 0:25:40.679 How you sure you've talked to them? Who was this family? 0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:44.600 I just I'm frustrated with myself that I didn't follow 0:25:44.720 --> 0:25:47.000 up with that a little bit more like, you know, 0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:49.800 I just took his word for when he said, well, well, 0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:52.080 we let the family know that we had these, but 0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:53.800 they have not asked to see that. I don't know. 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:56.760 I don't know why that. It's something about it doesn't 0:25:56.760 --> 0:25:58.959 sit with me, right. You know, It's interesting all these 0:25:59.040 --> 0:26:02.199 years I had to actually go back and find the articles, 0:26:02.240 --> 0:26:04.040 so I didn't remember who wrote it. I just knew 0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:06.200 I had this little piece of paper that described the 0:26:06.520 --> 0:26:09.480 disposable camera. But I always wondered, like, why didn't this 0:26:09.600 --> 0:26:12.960 reporter follow up? Like it's such a fascinating little tidbit. 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:16.600