Speaker 1: I've often said that good ideas when because they're good ideas,
Speaker 1: when you're able to lay out the information in a
Speaker 1: way that's easy to understand, easy to digest, then people
Speaker 1: can change their mind. It's not about shutting people down.
Speaker 1: It's about having open and intelligent conversation. And that's exactly
Speaker 1: what we're going to dig into today. I am joined
Speaker 1: by my friend VJ and he is going to explain
Speaker 1: some concept to us in a very easy two way
Speaker 1: understand UM. He has recently written a new book called
Speaker 1: The Bullish Case for Bitcoin, and he is going to
Speaker 1: talk about some of the biggest objections that people have
Speaker 1: to Bitcoin in a very simple, easy to understand way
Speaker 1: that I think is going to make a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: Some of the biggest objections you might have heard are
Speaker 1: actually very simple when you can understand them at a
Speaker 1: different level. UM, So much to get into here. It's
Speaker 1: a great conversation, one that I really enjoyed, so it's
Speaker 1: going to just jump right into it. Hey, everyone, welcome
Speaker 1: to another episode of The Market Disruptor Show. And today
Speaker 1: I am joined by VJ. Boya Patti and he is
Speaker 1: a former Google software engineer UM and more lately known
Speaker 1: for talking about bitcoin and the book called The Bullish
Speaker 1: Case for Bitcoin. It's actually been out for quite a while,
Speaker 1: something that I've read. I know a lot of people have, UM,
Speaker 1: and I'm super excited to talk to you today. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining. Thanks Mark, it's great to chat with you today. Yeah. So, UM,
Speaker 1: I think the first time we met in person was
Speaker 1: at Safety's dinner, and I think we got to sit
Speaker 1: across from each other at Big Block Boom a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago, and that was that was pretty fun.
Speaker 1: I remember you asked me specifically what my journey was,
Speaker 1: um into bitcoin, and so, um, why don't you tell
Speaker 1: us what your journey was in from being a Google
Speaker 1: software engineer, how you got in and then what led
Speaker 1: to kind of writing this book, The Bullish Case for Bitcoin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll try and keep it a little bit compressed, but
Speaker 1: I'll stop from the beginning. I'm gonna stray. And I
Speaker 1: was born and raised in Australia. I came to the
Speaker 1: US to do a PhD in computer science, but I
Speaker 1: ended up taking a job and ended up at a
Speaker 1: small startup which you know people probably know now called Google,
Speaker 1: but it was much smaller when I joined. I worked
Speaker 1: at Google until the end of two thousand and seven,
Speaker 1: and I left because I wanted to campaign in the
Speaker 1: presidential election, the two eight presidential election for Ron Paul,
Speaker 1: and that was a great experience. I raised a lot
Speaker 1: of money, I brought hundreds of people to New Hampshire
Speaker 1: to UH to campaign and canvas for Ron. But I
Speaker 1: actually became really disillusioned with the political process when I
Speaker 1: went through this, and I started to learn that there
Speaker 1: are much more powerful forces at work, and a grassroots
Speaker 1: campaigning really does not compare to those forces. So, for instance,
Speaker 1: Fox News decided they wouldn't let Ron in the debate,
Speaker 1: and that really had a huge impact on his ability
Speaker 1: to to do well in New Hampshire, and so I
Speaker 1: was I was pretty cynical about the political process after
Speaker 1: that for a few years, and a little bit depressed
Speaker 1: about whether you know, the values that I hold, which
Speaker 1: I think are American values human freedom, the ability to
Speaker 1: pursue your happiness without other people interfering. I was a
Speaker 1: little bit depressed that it would be hard to to
Speaker 1: advance those ideas through the political process. UH. But then
Speaker 1: I came across bitcoin in two thousand and eleven, and
Speaker 1: it was really exciting because it's this new technology which
Speaker 1: I think really promotes human freedom and promotes people's ability
Speaker 1: to to keep the fruits of their labor without debasement
Speaker 1: or confiscation. And I sort of recognize that we can
Speaker 1: change the world through technology, we can change the political landscape. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I've just been so fascinated with bitcoin for the
Speaker 1: last decade. And I had a background in Austrian economics
Speaker 1: and I recognized when I came to bitcoin, this is
Speaker 1: a monetary phenomena. And I've just been obsessed with this
Speaker 1: question of how does this new monetary good which was created,
Speaker 1: created out of thin air, How does it have any
Speaker 1: economic value? Why does it have a price? Why why
Speaker 1: do people value this thing? And so I've been obsessing
Speaker 1: over this question for a decade, and you know, I've
Speaker 1: come across so many misconceptions about bitcoin. In two thousand
Speaker 1: and seventeen, I decided I want to write an article
Speaker 1: to explain why I think bitcoin has an economic value
Speaker 1: and provide an economic framework to think about bitcoin. And
Speaker 1: you know, when I wrote the article, I was hoping
Speaker 1: that it would be read by a few friends and
Speaker 1: maybe a couple of people on Wall Street, but it
Speaker 1: ended up getting read by about a million people around
Speaker 1: the world. It was translated into twenty different languages. I
Speaker 1: didn't pay for that. People just volunteered, which was so
Speaker 1: humbling that people are were as excited about the article
Speaker 1: and that you know that they wanted to talk about
Speaker 1: bitcoin and use this as a resource to share with
Speaker 1: their friends. Uh. So I wrote the article. It was
Speaker 1: received much uh more than I expected it would be.
Speaker 1: Um and then people start asking me turning into a book,
Speaker 1: and I thought it was, you know, the right length.
Speaker 1: It was, you know, a long form article, but it
Speaker 1: wasn't as long as a book. Hey guys, let me
Speaker 1: just interrupt this interview real quick, just to plug the
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Speaker 1: most heavily regulated UM companies inside the United States, which
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Speaker 1: off bitcoin, and you can do that by leveraging debt
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Speaker 1: park it with him, or you can borrow against it. Now,
Speaker 1: as I broke down in that video, you can borrow
Speaker 1: against your bitcoin, and when you take debt against it,
Speaker 1: it's not taxable. It's not a taxable event. You can
Speaker 1: use that debt for anything that you want, including to
Speaker 1: live off of, to leverage up and buy more, or
Speaker 1: roll it into another asset. UM you can do something
Speaker 1: like I've done recently, like sell some real estate put
Speaker 1: that money into bitcoin. Now as that bitcoin price has risen,
Speaker 1: I'm able to borrow against it and go back and
Speaker 1: buy the same real estate or something similar. And I
Speaker 1: still own the bitcoin, and I also own the new
Speaker 1: asset as well. Lots of ways you can do this.
Speaker 1: UM and block five is the company that I recommend.
Speaker 1: Down in the description, I have a link that you
Speaker 1: can click on. If you choose to use that link,
Speaker 1: you can earn up the two d fifty dollars in
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Speaker 1: by now uh and so I sort of didn't do
Speaker 1: anything about that until when you know, the pandemic happened
Speaker 1: and the government responses around the world was so crazy.
Speaker 1: In my opinion, the amount of money that was created
Speaker 1: as just staggering trillions and trillions of dollars, and so
Speaker 1: they gave a new context in which I thought it
Speaker 1: was worth revisiting the article, and I thought there are
Speaker 1: actually some things in the article I didn't cover that
Speaker 1: are really important I wanted to put into a book,
Speaker 1: and so I spent some of the later part of
Speaker 1: the early part of one writing the book and I
Speaker 1: just launched it. And I'm really excited that people can
Speaker 1: can can get that book now. Well, I launched it
Speaker 1: as a Kickstarter and and the kickstarter campaign has ended,
Speaker 1: but it should be in stores in about a month.
Speaker 1: So you took the article that got the million news
Speaker 1: and was translated all the languages, and then you've taken
Speaker 1: that and expanded on that and then turned it into
Speaker 1: a book, so you goil deeper into the different subjects
Speaker 1: and stuff. Exactly right. I updated it because some of
Speaker 1: the things were tied to that time period in two
Speaker 1: thousand and seventeen when I wrote it, and I thought
Speaker 1: there was definitely enough changes in the market that it
Speaker 1: needed to be updated, and I significantly expanded it as well.
Speaker 1: So there were pup of things that I thought were
Speaker 1: incredibly important that I needed to to to discuss that
Speaker 1: I didn't in the article. So what was the historical
Speaker 1: context in which bitcoin came about? Uh, there would be.
Speaker 1: There's been people working in the cipher punk community for
Speaker 1: at least a decade before bitcoin came about, trying to
Speaker 1: create digital money but actually having not succeeded, many of
Speaker 1: them were skeptical something like this was possible. But so
Speaker 1: I wanted to provide that historical context. I also really
Speaker 1: wanted to tackle the question of what is bitcoin. There
Speaker 1: was a huge debate in the bitcoin community in two
Speaker 1: thousand and seventeen about you know, it's bitcoin a payment system.
Speaker 1: Is it kind of like PayPal, ex a bit decentralized
Speaker 1: or is it kind of like goal? Is it more
Speaker 1: like a digital you know gold where you keep your
Speaker 1: savings in that um And that that question was so
Speaker 1: important it resulted in a split of the bitcoin network
Speaker 1: really very hostile, and there's a lot of contention and
Speaker 1: people really upset with each other. And I have a
Speaker 1: view on what bitcoin is, and I really wanted to
Speaker 1: explain why I think bitcoin is the way it is,
Speaker 1: why it can only be the way it is, uh,
Speaker 1: and how that development played out. So there's a number
Speaker 1: of things like that that weren't in the article that
Speaker 1: I thought were really important that I should cover up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they sound like important things. Um, I wanted to dig
Speaker 1: into some of that, But I would like to hear
Speaker 1: just about the kickstarter piece itself, because that's kind of
Speaker 1: an interesting thing. Um. Maybe there's people listening that have
Speaker 1: thought about writing a book and I'm one of them.
Speaker 1: I and honestly, I hadn't thought about doing a book
Speaker 1: to a kickstarter. Um, I've talked to a couple of
Speaker 1: different publishers. I've talked to some people that assist you
Speaker 1: with self publishing things like that. Tell me how that
Speaker 1: process went with the kickstarter and how it ended up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I've never written a book before. And the first
Speaker 1: thing I did was I contacted a number of people
Speaker 1: in the bitcoin space who had written books and who
Speaker 1: I respect a lot of people like Sayer Dean and
Speaker 1: Yeah Pritzka and Nick Bartia who had written great books
Speaker 1: in my opinion, have them all on my shelf. And
Speaker 1: I said, should I what should I do here? Should
Speaker 1: I just go find a public a share or should
Speaker 1: I self published? And uniformly, every single one of them
Speaker 1: said self published. Do not use a publisher, And they
Speaker 1: gave you know a few reasons. One is you don't
Speaker 1: control the rights, and that dramatically reduces your flexibility of
Speaker 1: creating derivative works, whether you can do translations. There are
Speaker 1: all sorts of issues around that where, uh, it makes
Speaker 1: it harder for you to control your work, and publishers
Speaker 1: tend to be very very slow in reacting to requests.
Speaker 1: So you know, I want to release an excerpt from
Speaker 1: my book, a chapter to promote, to promote the book,
Speaker 1: it can take months to get approval for that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. So that was one reason. The other reason
Speaker 1: is you don't actually don't get paid very much if
Speaker 1: you if you use a publisher, they do, they do
Speaker 1: pay you upfront, but if you sell a book for
Speaker 1: twenty dollars, you're likely to get a dollar or a
Speaker 1: dollar fifty per book, which is not a very good
Speaker 1: renumeration because that the effort that goes into a book
Speaker 1: is pretty significant. You know, there's months of work where
Speaker 1: you're writing and you're sitting down a loan and having
Speaker 1: writer's block and actually do this. Um so, so you know,
Speaker 1: then I thought, okay, I'm going to self publish. And
Speaker 1: I looked at doing that, and if you self published,
Speaker 1: you've got to do things yourself. You gotta do the
Speaker 1: type setting yourself, the editing, you've got to hire an editing.
Speaker 1: There are all these costs. Uh. But the benefit is
Speaker 1: if you sell through retailers when you're self published, instead
Speaker 1: of a dollar or a dollar fifty, you're probably gonna
Speaker 1: get maybe five or six dollars per per copy per book,
Speaker 1: which is great. But then I thought about Kickstarter. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe I can launch my book on Kickstarter. And the
Speaker 1: great thing about Kickstarter is it's this website that helps
Speaker 1: people launch projects that may not be fully finished and
Speaker 1: helps them fund those projects to get them out there.
Speaker 1: As typically used for gadgets and electronics and even board
Speaker 1: games where people are dreaming up something they want to
Speaker 1: create and they explain to people what their vision is
Speaker 1: and people get excited and they fund it, but people
Speaker 1: also use it for books, and so I thought, okay,
Speaker 1: why don't I do this? If I if I do
Speaker 1: a Kickstarter and people taught me on this. Instead of
Speaker 1: you know, getting a dollar fifty or five dollars, if
Speaker 1: I self published, I'm selling directly, I'm going to get
Speaker 1: out of twenty dollars, I'm probably gonna get about eighteen dollars,
Speaker 1: So it renumerates me a lot more. And the benefit
Speaker 1: is I really want to get these ideas to as
Speaker 1: many people as possible, So I would love to have
Speaker 1: the funding to get pay for translations myself, to own
Speaker 1: the copyright for those translations, to get this to spread
Speaker 1: around the world, because in my view, when people are
Speaker 1: presented with the reasons why bitcoin is valuable and why
Speaker 1: it's important to the world, and why it's a good
Speaker 1: idea to keep savings in bitcoin, they really get it.
Speaker 1: They just need to have the ideas presented in a
Speaker 1: sort of logical clear way and have some of the
Speaker 1: risks explained to them in an open, honest way. Once
Speaker 1: you do that, I find I haven't had an experience
Speaker 1: where people like, well, I still don't believe in it.
Speaker 1: Most people I found get it. Uh So I'm excited
Speaker 1: to have the control over my work and to get
Speaker 1: it out and to be compensated enough that I can
Speaker 1: fund myself, translations and marketing and all of that stuff.
Speaker 1: So I think Kickstarter is a great way to do this.
Speaker 1: I encourage anyone who's thinking about writting a book to
Speaker 1: to use Kickstarter. Safer Dean his new book, He's also
Speaker 1: launched on Kickstarter, And I think this is going to
Speaker 1: be a trend. Actually, I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: in this space are going to recognize this is a
Speaker 1: good way to launch your book. Uh and it's a
Speaker 1: good way to get compensated and keep control over over
Speaker 1: your own work. So it was a success. Then you
Speaker 1: were able to raise enough money up front on pre
Speaker 1: ordered the book to give you the money you need
Speaker 1: to get it written, translated, etcetera. Yeah, so it's sold
Speaker 1: about a hundred fifty dollars worth of books, and that's
Speaker 1: enough for me to start working on other stuff. And
Speaker 1: that's that that that demand is coming from kind of
Speaker 1: the early demanding people who are most excited about it.
Speaker 1: And then eventually it's going to get into Amazon and
Speaker 1: Bonds and Noble and that sort of thing. But it's
Speaker 1: kind of tapping into that early excitement and demand for
Speaker 1: the book, uh and and and monetizing that a little
Speaker 1: bit more than you would through Amazon. Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1: Thanks for sharing that and maybe that I said, there's
Speaker 1: probably a lot of people are interested, and I definitely was. Um,
Speaker 1: so I want to dive into some of these subjects here.
Speaker 1: So um you talked about Um one of the big
Speaker 1: things was like this economic value and framework of bitcoin
Speaker 1: and so, um, you know, why is their value there
Speaker 1: in the first place. And of course that's one of
Speaker 1: the big complaints or or arguments that we might hear,
Speaker 1: which I'm sure what's why you tackled that. Um, there's
Speaker 1: nothing back in it. It's just like fiat or whatever
Speaker 1: it may be, right, So we hear that all the time. Um,
Speaker 1: some people think that, you know, I think Peter Shift
Speaker 1: tweeted today that you know, only it has to be
Speaker 1: commodity money, only commodities or money. Um, So walk us
Speaker 1: through kind of this economic value framework that you said
Speaker 1: you kind of have if you will. Yeah, of course.
Speaker 1: So money is really it's a really difficult object to understand.
Speaker 1: Most people don't understand why money has any value, uh,
Speaker 1: and they haven't really thought deeply about it. So that
Speaker 1: that that's fine. But the thing that's really hard about
Speaker 1: money is that with other sort of assets, financial assets, Uh,
Speaker 1: they're they're almost always valued on their cash flow. And
Speaker 1: that's that's fairly easy to understand. So stocks or bonds
Speaker 1: or real estate. Stocks have dividends, bonds have interest, and
Speaker 1: real estate has rental cash flow. And you could look
Speaker 1: at a house and say, well, why is this house
Speaker 1: worth a million dollars? Well, it produces seventy thousand dollars
Speaker 1: of rent per year, so that justifies it a little bit.
Speaker 1: Whereas money doesn't. Money doesn't produce cashflow. Gold doesn't produce
Speaker 1: cash flow. Uh, bitcoin doesn't produce a cash flow. So
Speaker 1: why why does something like gold have value? Well, the
Speaker 1: reason is money serves this other purpose in society and
Speaker 1: historically has always these purposes medium of exchange and store
Speaker 1: a value and unit of account. And through history humans
Speaker 1: have value use certain goods ah for their attributes that
Speaker 1: make them good at these functions of money. And we
Speaker 1: really need money in a society because money is this
Speaker 1: incredibly important economic good that facilitates social coordination. If we
Speaker 1: don't if we don't have money, then we don't have
Speaker 1: a division of labor. And if we don't have a
Speaker 1: division of labor, we have a primitive society. We don't
Speaker 1: have civilization. We have a barter based society where people
Speaker 1: are trading you know, sheep for bread or whatever, and
Speaker 1: that really limits the scope in which trade can occur.
Speaker 1: So money is this fundamental innovation that society needs for civilization.
Speaker 1: So what are the attributes that make for a good money? Uh?
Speaker 1: These these attributes have been known for a long time,
Speaker 1: all the way back to Aristotle who wrote about these
Speaker 1: things like divisibility. You want to be able to divide
Speaker 1: the money that you have into small pieces to use
Speaker 1: in trade. Uh. Verifiability it should be easy to recognize
Speaker 1: that this is money, and it's not easy to fake it. Um.
Speaker 1: Fung Ability is another one. You want something which is
Speaker 1: essentially equivalent to any other piece or quantity of that thing.
Speaker 1: So gold is better as money than diamonds because diamonds
Speaker 1: are irregular in shape and quality, so they're not as
Speaker 1: good for trading. Uh. And probably the most important one
Speaker 1: of all the attributes to make for good money is scarcity.
Speaker 1: You want to have you want to keep your savings
Speaker 1: in something that is very difficult to produce. If it's
Speaker 1: easy to produce, then your savings are going to be
Speaker 1: sort of diminished, very quickly over time. So gold is
Speaker 1: much better as money than sand because if sand were money,
Speaker 1: you could take a bucket to the beach and you'd
Speaker 1: be rich. Right, So other people are not going to
Speaker 1: want to keep their savings in it. But gold is
Speaker 1: very difficult to produce. Uh So, if you look at
Speaker 1: those attributes that make for good monetary good, gold does
Speaker 1: really well over those attributes, and if you rank them,
Speaker 1: Bitcoin does even better. Uh And one of the attributes
Speaker 1: I failed to mention was portability. Bitcoin is so much
Speaker 1: more portable than gold. I can transmit bitcoin that I
Speaker 1: have to someone on the other end of the world
Speaker 1: almost instantly at very low cost. But if you're going
Speaker 1: to do that with gold, that would be very expensive.
Speaker 1: It would be risky. Um. So, if we rank monetary
Speaker 1: goods along these attributes that we know people demand for money,
Speaker 1: Bitcoin comes out really really well. It's superior to gold
Speaker 1: along almost every attribute except for established history. Gold has
Speaker 1: this very long established history, and I think Bitcoin is
Speaker 1: actually superior to feat moneys along every single one of
Speaker 1: these attributes. And in my article, I have a table
Speaker 1: where I list all of the attributes and I ranked
Speaker 1: them as if they're you know, taking a test in college, A, B, C, D,
Speaker 1: E F and I rank all of them. Uh, and
Speaker 1: you can go check out my article and see this ranking.
Speaker 1: Coin I think is superior to feat over all of
Speaker 1: the attributes and it's um that's the reason that bitcoin
Speaker 1: outcompetes these other monetary goods over time, because people slowly
Speaker 1: recognize that bitcoin has attributes that they want in money
Speaker 1: and that they need in money, and so they choose
Speaker 1: to keep their savings in bitcoin rather than these forms
Speaker 1: of money. And I think the thing is understanding. Knowledge
Speaker 1: can be sorry, information can be transmitted very quickly around
Speaker 1: the world, but understanding takes time. And so I've view
Speaker 1: this as like a process of the understanding of bitcoin
Speaker 1: superior superiority spreading around the world, um but inevitably growing,
Speaker 1: which is why Bitcoin's adoption is also growing, because people
Speaker 1: are coming to this understanding and realizing, Hey, it makes
Speaker 1: sense for me to keep some of my savings in bitcoin. Yeah.
Speaker 1: When you talk about the scarcity aspect um and how
Speaker 1: gold has been really good at app you know, one
Speaker 1: thing that I've always thought is I was a gold bug.
Speaker 1: After two thousand and eight, after that market crashed, I
Speaker 1: then found I became actually a sound money advocate, but um,
Speaker 1: you know, with gold, it was always kind of like, uh,
Speaker 1: money has to have a true cost of capital, so
Speaker 1: like you can't just create it from thin air. It
Speaker 1: must represent some form of energy um. And so with gold,
Speaker 1: for example, I have to buy the land and by
Speaker 1: the equipment and expend all the energy to get that gold.
Speaker 1: So there's like a true cost of that capital um
Speaker 1: and so um it's backed by energy, right and so
Speaker 1: um you can like look at bitcoin kind of the
Speaker 1: same way in a sense where it's also backed by
Speaker 1: capital because of the equipment and the energy that's used.
Speaker 1: So sometimes I thought, well, it's back the same as
Speaker 1: gold is backed right there, both backed by energy. Is
Speaker 1: that a good way to look at it? I think
Speaker 1: absolutely correcting. That's that's the way bitcoins it produces in
Speaker 1: this process of mining where the mine is a running
Speaker 1: software which has to expand real energy um to produce
Speaker 1: a new bitcoin. So and you can actually look that
Speaker 1: the real cost, it's it's perfectly measurable. Unlike gold is
Speaker 1: not always clear how much energy went into the production
Speaker 1: of goal, is very clear how much energy is expended
Speaker 1: to to go into a bitcoin, So there is a
Speaker 1: cost of capital. And so that means that when people
Speaker 1: have a bitcoin, they know that a real amount of
Speaker 1: energy was put into its production and then it was
Speaker 1: it's an incredibly large amount of energy. And that energy
Speaker 1: is what actually secures the bitcoin network, which makes it
Speaker 1: hard for people to fake transactions and to to create
Speaker 1: fake bitcoins, because to create a new bitcoin or to
Speaker 1: to do a transaction, a huge amount of energy has
Speaker 1: to to go into that. Uh, and that's what protects
Speaker 1: the integrity of bitcoins network. Yeah, yeah, that's good. It's
Speaker 1: and and then I guess the last piece would just
Speaker 1: be back to the commodity money. Right, So then of
Speaker 1: course back to shift not not not to bring him up,
Speaker 1: but you know what gold has intrinsic value. I can
Speaker 1: use it as cuff links, right. Um, I like to
Speaker 1: say that there's no such thing as intrinsic value, and
Speaker 1: all value is is, you know, based off of what
Speaker 1: we decide it's worth. Um, what would you say in
Speaker 1: regards to that? Right? So gold is something physical that
Speaker 1: there's actually a physical value there. Yes, So people get
Speaker 1: sort of caught up in the physicality of gold and
Speaker 1: the circled tone of intrinsic value to justify golts price.
Speaker 1: I think that's actually quite a big mistake, because if
Speaker 1: you look at any form of money, it's price level
Speaker 1: is determined by two factors. One is its utility, it's
Speaker 1: kind of industrial use or whatever, or it's used for jewelry.
Speaker 1: And the other part is the monetary premium. That is,
Speaker 1: people aren't using it for its industrial use. They're using
Speaker 1: it for its monetary role. They're using it as a
Speaker 1: store of value or a medium exchange. And a lot
Speaker 1: of the gold in the world, actually the majority of
Speaker 1: gold in the world, doesn't do anything. All that does
Speaker 1: is sit in vaults in banks and central banks around
Speaker 1: the world, and and that demand is the monetary premium.
Speaker 1: And in my in my article, i explained that different
Speaker 1: monetary goods have different monetary premiums. If you look at silver, uh,
Speaker 1: it has a fairly small monetary premium. Most of the
Speaker 1: price level of silver comes from its industrial use. Um.
Speaker 1: Some people hold silver in volts, but not many. Gold
Speaker 1: is mostly monetary premium. Uh. There are some industrial uses,
Speaker 1: but they're actually quite small compared to the amount of
Speaker 1: demand that comes from just having your gold sit there
Speaker 1: and do absolutely nothing. Bitcoin is pure monetary premium. It's
Speaker 1: a pure form of money. Now, the mistake is that
Speaker 1: people say that that tiny amount of industrial demand for
Speaker 1: gold is the reason it has any value. No, it's
Speaker 1: completely wrong. The majority of gold's demand comes from its
Speaker 1: monetary uses. And actually, if gold were to stop having
Speaker 1: any industrial uses and people decided, well, this isn't really
Speaker 1: nice for jewelry anymore. There's something better that we can
Speaker 1: create more cheaply. Uh, old would still have a high
Speaker 1: price uh or another way of saying it, if you
Speaker 1: took away gold monetary demand, its price level wouldn't be
Speaker 1: an ounce It would probably be a hundred dollars announced.
Speaker 1: So most of that value comes from the monetary side,
Speaker 1: and Peter Shift kind of misses that, and he focused
Speaker 1: on this tiny fraction of demand for gold, and he
Speaker 1: thinks that's the explanation for the price level of gold. No,
Speaker 1: money is valued for its monetary uses, and bitcoin, being
Speaker 1: a pure form of money, has all of its value
Speaker 1: determined by that. And the last point I want to
Speaker 1: make about this is it's actually a big disadvantage for
Speaker 1: a monetary good to have industrial demand. The more industrial
Speaker 1: demand it has as a fraction of its price level,
Speaker 1: the worst it is as money, because you don't want
Speaker 1: the price level of your money to fluctuate all over
Speaker 1: the place if the industrial demand moves around, like one
Speaker 1: year there might be less demand, one year there might
Speaker 1: be more demand. You don't want moneys to behave that way.
Speaker 1: You want most of the value to be in that
Speaker 1: monetary premium. Yeah. I think also on top of that, um,
Speaker 1: we don't necessarily want those um, those materials to go
Speaker 1: up in price either because they need to be used.
Speaker 1: And so if I'm putting all my money into real
Speaker 1: estate because dollars is no good, well then it's pushing
Speaker 1: the price of real estate up. But now nobody can
Speaker 1: afford a home where I'm putting it all into goal
Speaker 1: but now pushing the price of gold up, and now
Speaker 1: we can't use it for conducting, which is what it
Speaker 1: should be used for for example. So there's actually maybe
Speaker 1: a case for why non commodity money is actually superior
Speaker 1: or better for better for society anyway. Yeah, absolutely right,
Speaker 1: that's a good point, the point that I hadn't mentioned it.
Speaker 1: It works in both directions. Yeah, hey, sorry to interrupt
Speaker 1: this video just one more time. I'm not running Google ads,
Speaker 1: so it's actually way less interruption than I normally would
Speaker 1: have on a video UM and that's because it's sponsored
Speaker 1: by block five UM. They are opening up the world
Speaker 1: of bitcoin and financial products offering to pay you interest
Speaker 1: on your bitcoin um better than own in a rental
Speaker 1: property that you have to manage and control and have
Speaker 1: the risks. You can or certain interest on it, or
Speaker 1: you can leverage against it. Now, I plan to hold
Speaker 1: my bitcoin forever and literally never sell my bitcoin. So
Speaker 1: how do you do that? Well, if I need money,
Speaker 1: I don't want to sell that bitcoin. I'm gonna pay
Speaker 1: tax on it, all right, I'm gonna end up with
Speaker 1: less and I don't have the bitcoin anymore. So a
Speaker 1: better way to do it is to borrow against the bitcoin.
Speaker 1: So I've put all my money into bitcoin. If I
Speaker 1: want to buy a car, or I want to buy
Speaker 1: a house, I can borrow against it at very very
Speaker 1: low competitive rates. Get my house, get my car, whatever
Speaker 1: that may be, and get to keep the bitcoin. I've
Speaker 1: done a whole video on this. You can find it.
Speaker 1: I'll link it down in the description below. How to
Speaker 1: retire off a bitcoin without paying taxes and you can
Speaker 1: do that with block fight services. I'll link to the
Speaker 1: video down below. I'm also going to put a link
Speaker 1: to block Fight. If you choose to click on that
Speaker 1: link to check them out, you can earn up to
Speaker 1: two fifty dollars in free bitcoin just for using that link.
Speaker 1: And that's it. Let's go ahead and get back to
Speaker 1: the interview. Yeah, um, if we if we jump to
Speaker 1: a different topic of something else that you had said
Speaker 1: that I think it is also pretty important, is that, um,
Speaker 1: bitcoin is old technology. I hear that one all the time, right,
Speaker 1: it's the old technology. It's slow, it's dumb. Um, it's
Speaker 1: the MySpace, the Google, you know, the Facebook's coming, blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. But to your kind of point you made earlier, Um,
Speaker 1: it had been tried for decades without succeeding. So this
Speaker 1: was not the first iteration. It has many generations. Maybe
Speaker 1: to walk us through kind of that, being a being
Speaker 1: a Google software engineer, maybe you can explain to us
Speaker 1: how technology kind of evolves and why maybe being a slow,
Speaker 1: dumb bas layer is actually the best option. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: bitcoin is this fundamental innovation in computer science. It's solved
Speaker 1: problem in computer science that a lot of people didn't
Speaker 1: think was solvable, which is it's called the Byzantine general's problem,
Speaker 1: and so Toshi Nakamoto, when he published his paper in
Speaker 1: two thousand eight, presented the first solution. And so he
Speaker 1: made something possible that had never been possible in the
Speaker 1: history of the world, which is to be able to
Speaker 1: transmit value from one end of the globe to the
Speaker 1: other end of the globe near instantly without having to
Speaker 1: have someone in between, a trusted intermediary like a government
Speaker 1: or a bank. And that's a that's a profound innovation
Speaker 1: when when you the other part of your question as well,
Speaker 1: other people can create these new cryptocurrencies. The thing is,
Speaker 1: these new cryptocurrencies aren't that they add technological bells and whistles,
Speaker 1: but they're not a fundamental innovation on top of Bitcoin.
Speaker 1: Uh So, so the thing is here, Bitcoin is a
Speaker 1: monetary good and it's valued as a monetary good. For
Speaker 1: these new ones to to outcompete Bitcoin, they have to
Speaker 1: improve on the monetary attributes that Bitcoin has, and none
Speaker 1: of them, as far as I can see, have any
Speaker 1: superior monetary attributes to Bitcoin. For instance, scarcity, and whenever
Speaker 1: you have something, any product or service or good that
Speaker 1: has a network effect, it's really really hard to unseat
Speaker 1: that unless you are orders of magnitude better. UM. So, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the example of Facebook and MySpace is an
Speaker 1: interesting one. I think the only case in which, you know,
Speaker 1: something with the network effect can be outcompeted is in
Speaker 1: the very very early stages. Uh. You know, when my
Speaker 1: Space was still very young, when Facebook started competing with it. Uh.
Speaker 1: And Facebook was superior and managed to outcompete MySpace over
Speaker 1: the network effect. But it was early enough that that
Speaker 1: was possible. And I would say, actually, you know, Bitcoin
Speaker 1: could have been out competed if something much better had
Speaker 1: come along in two thousand twelve or thirteen when it
Speaker 1: was still early. The Bitcoin is so massive now has
Speaker 1: such a strong network effect. Um. And this encompasses many
Speaker 1: things that encompasses that. The brand, It's the strongest brand
Speaker 1: by far. No old coin is ever mentioned except in
Speaker 1: the context of bitcoin. The financial infrastructure, all of the
Speaker 1: companies that provide on ramps and off ramps to Bitcoin
Speaker 1: and and leverage on bitcoin. There Most of these other
Speaker 1: old coins don't have anything like that that. The community
Speaker 1: of developers that the best cryptographers and computer scientists in
Speaker 1: the world a committed to working on bitcoin. So there
Speaker 1: are a number of factors like that that add to
Speaker 1: bitcoins network effect, and it's at such a large scale
Speaker 1: now that I don't think it's possible for it to
Speaker 1: be out competed. Uh. And it's not about technology. It's
Speaker 1: not about adding like some cool new thing that sounds
Speaker 1: good on your altcoin. It's about did you provide a
Speaker 1: better monetary attribute? Uh that's better than the ones that
Speaker 1: bitcoin has, And I just looking at the attributes, I
Speaker 1: don't see how that's possible. Uh, there is, I should
Speaker 1: say there is one weakness. I think bitcoin does have.
Speaker 1: One weakness that I think will improve over time. Is
Speaker 1: it's fungibility. That is uh kind of the privacy aspect
Speaker 1: of bitcoin, like, is one bitcoin equivalent to any other bitcoin?
Speaker 1: And at the network layer that is true. Uh, any
Speaker 1: bitcoin can be transmitted on the network like any other.
Speaker 1: But because bitcoins blockchain is open and transparent, it is
Speaker 1: possible to trace bitcoins. And the disadvantage there is that
Speaker 1: a government could come along and say, well, this bitcoin
Speaker 1: is tainted. We don't want any business to actually accept
Speaker 1: this bitcoin. They'll go to exchanges and say here's the
Speaker 1: list of tainted bitcoins, and that kind of reduces Bitcoin's
Speaker 1: funge ability a little bit. Uh. Cash. You know, cash
Speaker 1: U S dollars doesn't have this problem because it's completely
Speaker 1: anonymous and you can't tell where it came from. So
Speaker 1: this is one area which Bitcoin has a weakness. But
Speaker 1: I am actually very optimistic that this is going to
Speaker 1: improve over time through technological developments. Uh. And for instance,
Speaker 1: there's been a protocol upgrade to Bitcoin recently that's been
Speaker 1: approved by the network called tap Route, which is going
Speaker 1: to improve the privacy of bitcoin. So you know, if
Speaker 1: a new old coin comes along and it's competing with Bitcoin,
Speaker 1: we shouldn't look at the technology. We should look at
Speaker 1: the monetary attributes. And Bitcoin only has, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: one weakness, and I think that is an area it's
Speaker 1: improving quickly over the time. Yeah, that's a that's a
Speaker 1: good point to bring up on that weakness. It's something
Speaker 1: that I've actually had to I've come under kind of
Speaker 1: quite a bit of fire on recently. As a matter
Speaker 1: of fact, I got invited and I accepted opportunity to
Speaker 1: go onto the Monaro talk show to discuss this exact
Speaker 1: topic with Monaro people. UM. I was more than happy
Speaker 1: to do that. Um. You know, in regards to that
Speaker 1: privacy problem, I mean we do have layer two technologies
Speaker 1: like lightning, which allow you to transact the bitcoin much
Speaker 1: more private. We also have coin joint applications where we
Speaker 1: can kind of obfuscate if not you know, kind of
Speaker 1: a race that history as well. So I think in
Speaker 1: that regard you have that you know their argument as well.
Speaker 1: You know, Monaro never had it in the first place. Um,
Speaker 1: but it seems like if a merchant, so as you said,
Speaker 1: like it's not done on the network level, the network
Speaker 1: doesn't know the difference. It would be a merchant that
Speaker 1: would be squeezed by the you know whatever regulators to
Speaker 1: not accept that bitcoin. And so if they, if they
Speaker 1: could accept the Monaro or whatever privacy coin you want
Speaker 1: to use that has no history, then why wouldn't they
Speaker 1: just set to accept the bitcoin? Then it doesn't have
Speaker 1: a street. I mean that's kind of that's the question,
Speaker 1: and I kind of keep going back to you. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that's a great point. I think it's
Speaker 1: also it's not is it not a question without trade offs?
Speaker 1: And and people who say narrow or ze cash have
Speaker 1: more privacy need to accept that there are trade offs.
Speaker 1: And this is actually a really difficult question. And the
Speaker 1: trade off is if you have perfect privacy, you lose
Speaker 1: some ability to have auditability in the supply. And z
Speaker 1: cash actually they found a bug in the way they
Speaker 1: have these shielded transactions. They found a bug where they
Speaker 1: weren't properly accounting for supply, and there was more supply
Speaker 1: than they thought. One of the great things about bitcoins
Speaker 1: blockchain being completely open is that we can order to
Speaker 1: know how much supply has been created and and and
Speaker 1: verify that it's you know, according to schedule. We know
Speaker 1: that no more than twenty one million bitcoins will ever
Speaker 1: be produced. So this is a technically difficult problem, and
Speaker 1: there are trade offs, and we shouldn't sort of h
Speaker 1: be too blase about those tradeoffs. I think some people
Speaker 1: when they talk about this, they're like, oh, yeah, this
Speaker 1: is easy just to use a different privacy coin, but
Speaker 1: you have to recognize that there are weaknesses that come
Speaker 1: from making that trade off as well. Yeah. So, UM
Speaker 1: as a software engineer, and I look at the way
Speaker 1: that bitcoin is done, and so we have that base layer,
Speaker 1: but it seems like we're seeing pretty rapidly now new
Speaker 1: technology is being built on layer two. UM, and then
Speaker 1: now there's layer three that we have being started as well,
Speaker 1: and so it seems like we kind of have this
Speaker 1: this base layer that gives you that hard censorship resistant,
Speaker 1: decentralized open, but then all the new technologies can be
Speaker 1: built on top which didn't have those trade offs that
Speaker 1: allow for those trade offs. Um, and it almost seems
Speaker 1: like all the other all coins that are out there
Speaker 1: that have all these bells and whistles will all probably
Speaker 1: eventually come back and beyond the main chain. As a
Speaker 1: software engineer, what do you think about that? Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a great point, and you you mentioned something earlier than
Speaker 1: I forgot to mention. I think is really important that
Speaker 1: Lightning is a privacy improving technology. It's a set and
Speaker 1: layer on top of bitcoin where people can trade bitcoins
Speaker 1: back and forth very quickly and very cheaply. That the
Speaker 1: base layer of bitcoin is more costly and isn't really
Speaker 1: meant for transactional use. I mean, people got confused in
Speaker 1: the early days because there were there wasn't much usage,
Speaker 1: and they thought, oh, bitcoins are payment system, a cheap
Speaker 1: payment system, But actually it's the settlement layer. It's really
Speaker 1: meant for a settlement, large settlement between large financial institutions
Speaker 1: or large holders of bitcoin who want to send, you know,
Speaker 1: a million dollars or something like that, that the smaller
Speaker 1: transaction should happen on higher layers. And this was actually
Speaker 1: anticipated from the very beginning. How Finny who was one
Speaker 1: of the people who helped develop bitcoin in the very
Speaker 1: earliest days, he recognized that all financial systems are built
Speaker 1: in layers, and and that's exactly exactly how Bitcoin is
Speaker 1: being built. And I like what you said about how
Speaker 1: this is going to suck in these extra layers are
Speaker 1: going to suck in the features from these other old coins.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, you know, to give an analogy,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like how cell phones sucked in all
Speaker 1: of these other features from all of these sort of
Speaker 1: peripheral products. Like think about the camera. In the early
Speaker 1: two thousand's, people had separate digital cameras that they take pictures.
Speaker 1: No one has that anymore. People used to buy gpss.
Speaker 1: You remember the tom toms that you'd attached to people
Speaker 1: that don't have that. All of these other things were
Speaker 1: sucked into the smartphone. And I think that's a really
Speaker 1: great way I hadn't thought about. A really great way
Speaker 1: of thinking about it is that these extra layers are
Speaker 1: going to pull in the feature set because it can
Speaker 1: be done much more cheaply and and economically at the
Speaker 1: high layers. And so that that parrative advantage that people
Speaker 1: claim all coins have is all going to be brought
Speaker 1: into Bitcoin. Yeah, and we even have now smart contracts
Speaker 1: being done on bitcoin. So why would you want to
Speaker 1: do a smart contract on a chain that's unsecure right
Speaker 1: or centralized on Amazon servers for example, when you could
Speaker 1: run smart contracts on bitcoin. Um, So it seems like
Speaker 1: that's the way that that it's going. And if you
Speaker 1: can do smart contracts and faster and cheaper and more
Speaker 1: private than those eight thousand other coins don't seem to
Speaker 1: have a whole lot of advantages that are kind of
Speaker 1: left over. The other thing is understanding how like progress
Speaker 1: is made. Um. I've been reading high x book The
Speaker 1: Constitution of Liberty, and he's talking about this concept of
Speaker 1: progress and the more people that you can get in
Speaker 1: and the more iterations and attempts you can have, the
Speaker 1: faster that can happen, the more progress that can happen.
Speaker 1: And so then like on a very slow, dumb basse
Speaker 1: layer if you want to call bitcoin that, it allows
Speaker 1: almost unlimited options on top of that, which means innovation
Speaker 1: could happen really fast. When you take a smarter we'll
Speaker 1: call it that whatever, a more featured blockchain, um, it
Speaker 1: limits the ability of things that you can build on
Speaker 1: top of it. Yeah, I think there are um there.
Speaker 1: This is a game where there are tradeoffs where Ethereum
Speaker 1: tried to pack all of this functionality into the base layer,
Speaker 1: and the tradeoff is that it becomes so complex that
Speaker 1: it it really hinders the decentral realization. That's that's the
Speaker 1: big trade off. Like if you want to run your
Speaker 1: own ethereum, notice pretty costly, and it's it's slow, and
Speaker 1: it's hard. It is actually pretty hard to people have
Speaker 1: tried this and have written their experience about how how
Speaker 1: difficult this is. And also like you really want that
Speaker 1: base layer, the settlement layer, to be simple and accountable
Speaker 1: and really really secure because that's where the majority of
Speaker 1: value transfer is going to happen. And I think it's
Speaker 1: something that most other old coins haven't appreciated and and
Speaker 1: when they were put to the test, if they were
Speaker 1: put to the test, they failed. So Ethereum is an
Speaker 1: example where uh, you want to trust the base lay.
Speaker 1: You don't want people to be able to, you know,
Speaker 1: governments to be able to come along and say, no,
Speaker 1: we don't like this transaction, we're gonna roll it back.
Speaker 1: And it actually happened on Atherorum in the early days,
Speaker 1: when the theory faced its most important test, it failed,
Speaker 1: which is this this Dow hack where people invested a
Speaker 1: bunch of money in this smart contract and it kind
Speaker 1: of failed. It was it wasn't programmed properly. Metallic Budaum
Speaker 1: came along and got the minus to roll it back.
Speaker 1: So if you're on the ethereum and you have value
Speaker 1: you want to transact a large amount, you can't necessarily
Speaker 1: trust that that's gonna uh, that transaction can't be rolled back,
Speaker 1: whereas Bitcoin you have a very high degree of trust
Speaker 1: that you can't roll back those transactions. And even if
Speaker 1: a nation state came along and said, look, we don't
Speaker 1: want bitcoin to have this transaction, we're gonna precious some
Speaker 1: developers and miners, it's very hard because of bitcoin's decentralization
Speaker 1: to do anything like that. Yeah, and then more recently,
Speaker 1: one of the big things that bitcoin add back to
Speaker 1: your monetary principles is scarcity. And so Bitcoin, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: ethereum has an unlimited supply cap and was it two
Speaker 1: months ago or so? Vitalic and and and boys got
Speaker 1: together and they decided to give it a fixed monetary supply.
Speaker 1: But the fact that a group of people can get
Speaker 1: together and change the monetary supply of the network is
Speaker 1: exactly the problem we're trying to get away from. Its
Speaker 1: sounds like the money system, absolutely right. It's not the
Speaker 1: supply schedule that matters. It's the credibility of the supply schedule.
Speaker 1: Do you actually believe that um ethereum has a limited
Speaker 1: supply or could it? Could it be changed? So so
Speaker 1: gold has an inflation that goes forever. Two is added
Speaker 1: to the supply of gold. But the thing about gold
Speaker 1: supply schedule was we really trust it, We really believe
Speaker 1: that it isn't going to explode. Bitcoin has an even
Speaker 1: better supply schedule. It's ultimate scarcity. No more than twenty
Speaker 1: one million bitcoins will ever be produced. And the good
Speaker 1: thing about bitcoin, as opposed to its competitors, uh, is
Speaker 1: that we trust that supply schedule. We know, because it's decentralized,
Speaker 1: no one can come along and change it. And that's
Speaker 1: incredibly important, And that's one of the biggest I think
Speaker 1: comparative advantages of bitcoin over all of its competitors that
Speaker 1: none of its competitors have. Yeah, yeah, I look, I
Speaker 1: look at it. I worked on this new thesis I've
Speaker 1: been presenting on these just three revolutionaries, say, those that
Speaker 1: are converging and so, um, there's like a political social
Speaker 1: cultural converging with the technological and converging with the financial,
Speaker 1: and like um, problems or solutions come to problems. So
Speaker 1: if you look at like the problems we have and
Speaker 1: like political social cultural, like we have obviously unlimited money printing, Um,
Speaker 1: we have censorship. But one of the big problems we
Speaker 1: have is like we're ruled. We should be ruled by law,
Speaker 1: but now we're ruled by men. So the Constitution was
Speaker 1: supposed to limit the power, and everybody knew what those
Speaker 1: rules were in advance and we could all plan our lives.
Speaker 1: But today we have men that just change the rules
Speaker 1: on us all the time. No, you can't eat inside anymore. Okay,
Speaker 1: now you can't eat outside. Okay. Now if people a
Speaker 1: plexiglass up at okay, now it's it's like that we
Speaker 1: we can't we can't do that. And so if you
Speaker 1: understand what the problems are. Then the solutions would be
Speaker 1: censorship resistant, immutable law right, UM, no, not governance. UM.
Speaker 1: Since there's all these things, and then when you when
Speaker 1: you understand the problems and solutions, I mean it very
Speaker 1: quickly narrows it down to like only one option or that. So, UM,
Speaker 1: I love the way that you put all this together. UM.
Speaker 1: As you said, there's a lot of other good books.
Speaker 1: You mentioned Layered Money, and of course next book on
Speaker 1: that is great. There's so much good information, um you
Speaker 1: said earlier. UM, you know you kind of put this
Speaker 1: together to relay information in a good, smooth way, and
Speaker 1: I think that's so important today. UM. And so I'm
Speaker 1: encouraged by it, and and hopefully other people are. UM.
Speaker 1: I think that the ideas, good ideas win because they're
Speaker 1: good ideas and if you can and if you can
Speaker 1: share that information in the right way, then it wins. UM.
Speaker 1: Right now, we kind of have this problem. Uh. We
Speaker 1: don't need to dive into much, but you know, toxic uh,
Speaker 1: toxic stuff in the in the space where it's kind
Speaker 1: of like this cancel culture where it's like have fun
Speaker 1: stained poor kind of a thing, and it's like there
Speaker 1: could be a really good response that was given intelligently
Speaker 1: that could actually change that person's mind as opposed to
Speaker 1: kind of pushing them back and maybe digging their their
Speaker 1: hills and even more. Yeah, I mean I agree with
Speaker 1: what you say about truth prevailing. There's actually a Latin
Speaker 1: phrase and trying to remember it's something like magnet es
Speaker 1: veritas it preval a bit, which means truth is the
Speaker 1: truth is great and it will prevail. And I agree
Speaker 1: with that because if you present people with the truth
Speaker 1: and you give them the reasons so that they can
Speaker 1: reason about its, reason about it themselves, it's almost inevitable.
Speaker 1: Because when you when you talk to someone or when
Speaker 1: you present a book to them, for instance, and they're
Speaker 1: reading your book, you're rewiring their brain. They're they're processing
Speaker 1: the information that you present and if it makes sense
Speaker 1: and you provide the correct reasons, you are rewiring their
Speaker 1: brain to recognize something as truth. Which is why I
Speaker 1: think we have an advantage when we present true ideas,
Speaker 1: when we present them compelling lee and simply uh people,
Speaker 1: people want to accept them and they see their importance.
Speaker 1: And that's in my experience uh talking about bitcoin with people,
Speaker 1: that when when these ideas are presented simply, people get
Speaker 1: really excited about them. Yeah awesome. Well we're gonna gohead
Speaker 1: and wrap it up with that. I know you gotta
Speaker 1: get going and I appreciate you sharing that. UM. We'll
Speaker 1: make sure UM to link to I guess I don't
Speaker 1: know what we're linking to. Your books not available yet?
Speaker 1: But where should people follow? Twitter? I guess is probably
Speaker 1: the best. Yeah, you get you follow follow me at Twitter.
Speaker 1: That's the best place. So I'll keep updating people on
Speaker 1: Twitter about when the book will be in stores. I'm
Speaker 1: hoping it's within a month. My kickstarted campaign has ended,
Speaker 1: and I want to get the books out to the
Speaker 1: people who supported me, and then I want to get
Speaker 1: them out in stores so the wider population can get them.
Speaker 1: But yet Twitter, I'm real underscore of VJ at Twitter.
Speaker 1: Yeah awesome. All right, Well with that, we'll go ahead
Speaker 1: and sign out. Thanks so much for joining. Thanks man,
Speaker 1: all right four assssssssssss