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Speaker 1: I've often said that good ideas when because they're good ideas,

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Speaker 1: when you're able to lay out the information in a

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Speaker 1: way that's easy to understand, easy to digest, then people

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Speaker 1: can change their mind. It's not about shutting people down.

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Speaker 1: It's about having open and intelligent conversation. And that's exactly

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Speaker 1: what we're going to dig into today. I am joined

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Speaker 1: by my friend VJ and he is going to explain

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Speaker 1: some concept to us in a very easy two way

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Speaker 1: understand UM. He has recently written a new book called

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Speaker 1: The Bullish Case for Bitcoin, and he is going to

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Speaker 1: talk about some of the biggest objections that people have

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Speaker 1: to Bitcoin in a very simple, easy to understand way

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Speaker 1: that I think is going to make a lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: Some of the biggest objections you might have heard are

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Speaker 1: actually very simple when you can understand them at a

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Speaker 1: different level. UM, So much to get into here. It's

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Speaker 1: a great conversation, one that I really enjoyed, so it's

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Speaker 1: going to just jump right into it. Hey, everyone, welcome

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Speaker 1: to another episode of The Market Disruptor Show. And today

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Speaker 1: I am joined by VJ. Boya Patti and he is

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Speaker 1: a former Google software engineer UM and more lately known

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Speaker 1: for talking about bitcoin and the book called The Bullish

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Speaker 1: Case for Bitcoin. It's actually been out for quite a while,

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Speaker 1: something that I've read. I know a lot of people have, UM,

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Speaker 1: and I'm super excited to talk to you today. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for joining. Thanks Mark, it's great to chat with you today. Yeah. So, UM,

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Speaker 1: I think the first time we met in person was

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Speaker 1: at Safety's dinner, and I think we got to sit

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Speaker 1: across from each other at Big Block Boom a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, and that was that was pretty fun.

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Speaker 1: I remember you asked me specifically what my journey was,

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Speaker 1: um into bitcoin, and so, um, why don't you tell

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Speaker 1: us what your journey was in from being a Google

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Speaker 1: software engineer, how you got in and then what led

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Speaker 1: to kind of writing this book, The Bullish Case for Bitcoin. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'll try and keep it a little bit compressed, but

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Speaker 1: I'll stop from the beginning. I'm gonna stray. And I

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Speaker 1: was born and raised in Australia. I came to the

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Speaker 1: US to do a PhD in computer science, but I

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Speaker 1: ended up taking a job and ended up at a

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Speaker 1: small startup which you know people probably know now called Google,

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Speaker 1: but it was much smaller when I joined. I worked

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Speaker 1: at Google until the end of two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 1: and I left because I wanted to campaign in the

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Speaker 1: presidential election, the two eight presidential election for Ron Paul,

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Speaker 1: and that was a great experience. I raised a lot

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Speaker 1: of money, I brought hundreds of people to New Hampshire

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Speaker 1: to UH to campaign and canvas for Ron. But I

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Speaker 1: actually became really disillusioned with the political process when I

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Speaker 1: went through this, and I started to learn that there

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Speaker 1: are much more powerful forces at work, and a grassroots

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Speaker 1: campaigning really does not compare to those forces. So, for instance,

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Speaker 1: Fox News decided they wouldn't let Ron in the debate,

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Speaker 1: and that really had a huge impact on his ability

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Speaker 1: to to do well in New Hampshire, and so I

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Speaker 1: was I was pretty cynical about the political process after

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Speaker 1: that for a few years, and a little bit depressed

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Speaker 1: about whether you know, the values that I hold, which

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Speaker 1: I think are American values human freedom, the ability to

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Speaker 1: pursue your happiness without other people interfering. I was a

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Speaker 1: little bit depressed that it would be hard to to

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Speaker 1: advance those ideas through the political process. UH. But then

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Speaker 1: I came across bitcoin in two thousand and eleven, and

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Speaker 1: it was really exciting because it's this new technology which

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Speaker 1: I think really promotes human freedom and promotes people's ability

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Speaker 1: to to keep the fruits of their labor without debasement

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Speaker 1: or confiscation. And I sort of recognize that we can

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Speaker 1: change the world through technology, we can change the political landscape. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I've just been so fascinated with bitcoin for the

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Speaker 1: last decade. And I had a background in Austrian economics

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Speaker 1: and I recognized when I came to bitcoin, this is

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Speaker 1: a monetary phenomena. And I've just been obsessed with this

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Speaker 1: question of how does this new monetary good which was created,

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Speaker 1: created out of thin air, How does it have any

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Speaker 1: economic value? Why does it have a price? Why why

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Speaker 1: do people value this thing? And so I've been obsessing

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Speaker 1: over this question for a decade, and you know, I've

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Speaker 1: come across so many misconceptions about bitcoin. In two thousand

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Speaker 1: and seventeen, I decided I want to write an article

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Speaker 1: to explain why I think bitcoin has an economic value

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Speaker 1: and provide an economic framework to think about bitcoin. And

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Speaker 1: you know, when I wrote the article, I was hoping

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Speaker 1: that it would be read by a few friends and

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Speaker 1: maybe a couple of people on Wall Street, but it

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Speaker 1: ended up getting read by about a million people around

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Speaker 1: the world. It was translated into twenty different languages. I

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Speaker 1: didn't pay for that. People just volunteered, which was so

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Speaker 1: humbling that people are were as excited about the article

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Speaker 1: and that you know that they wanted to talk about

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Speaker 1: bitcoin and use this as a resource to share with

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Speaker 1: their friends. Uh. So I wrote the article. It was

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Speaker 1: received much uh more than I expected it would be.

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Speaker 1: Um and then people start asking me turning into a book,

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Speaker 1: and I thought it was, you know, the right length.

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Speaker 1: It was, you know, a long form article, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't as long as a book. Hey guys, let me

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Speaker 1: just interrupt this interview real quick, just to plug the

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Speaker 1: show sponsor, and that is block Fi. Now. Block five

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Speaker 1: is doing amazing things in the bitcoin finance space. As

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, they've cracked some really big news

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Speaker 1: by bringing on the x cftc UM chair Chris gian

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Speaker 1: Carlo Um and they are one of the most transparent,

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Speaker 1: most heavily regulated UM companies inside the United States, which

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Speaker 1: gives me a lot of trust into what their services are. Now,

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Speaker 1: I've recently did a video talking about how to retire

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Speaker 1: off bitcoin, and you can do that by leveraging debt

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Speaker 1: and interest against bitcoin and block five is the number

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Speaker 1: one company in the United States or maybe in the

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Speaker 1: world to go to and use UM. They are leading

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Speaker 1: the charge their paying interest on your bitcoin if you

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Speaker 1: park it with him, or you can borrow against it. Now,

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Speaker 1: as I broke down in that video, you can borrow

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Speaker 1: against your bitcoin, and when you take debt against it,

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Speaker 1: it's not taxable. It's not a taxable event. You can

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Speaker 1: use that debt for anything that you want, including to

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Speaker 1: live off of, to leverage up and buy more, or

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Speaker 1: roll it into another asset. UM you can do something

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Speaker 1: like I've done recently, like sell some real estate put

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Speaker 1: that money into bitcoin. Now as that bitcoin price has risen,

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Speaker 1: I'm able to borrow against it and go back and

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Speaker 1: buy the same real estate or something similar. And I

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Speaker 1: still own the bitcoin, and I also own the new

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Speaker 1: asset as well. Lots of ways you can do this.

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Speaker 1: UM and block five is the company that I recommend.

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Speaker 1: Down in the description, I have a link that you

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Speaker 1: can click on. If you choose to use that link,

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Speaker 1: you can earn up the two d fifty dollars in

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Speaker 1: bitcoin just for using that link. So check out block

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Speaker 1: by now uh and so I sort of didn't do

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Speaker 1: anything about that until when you know, the pandemic happened

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Speaker 1: and the government responses around the world was so crazy.

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Speaker 1: In my opinion, the amount of money that was created

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Speaker 1: as just staggering trillions and trillions of dollars, and so

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Speaker 1: they gave a new context in which I thought it

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Speaker 1: was worth revisiting the article, and I thought there are

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Speaker 1: actually some things in the article I didn't cover that

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Speaker 1: are really important I wanted to put into a book,

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Speaker 1: and so I spent some of the later part of

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Speaker 1: the early part of one writing the book and I

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Speaker 1: just launched it. And I'm really excited that people can

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Speaker 1: can can get that book now. Well, I launched it

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Speaker 1: as a Kickstarter and and the kickstarter campaign has ended,

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Speaker 1: but it should be in stores in about a month.

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Speaker 1: So you took the article that got the million news

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Speaker 1: and was translated all the languages, and then you've taken

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Speaker 1: that and expanded on that and then turned it into

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Speaker 1: a book, so you goil deeper into the different subjects

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Speaker 1: and stuff. Exactly right. I updated it because some of

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Speaker 1: the things were tied to that time period in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seventeen when I wrote it, and I thought

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Speaker 1: there was definitely enough changes in the market that it

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Speaker 1: needed to be updated, and I significantly expanded it as well.

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Speaker 1: So there were pup of things that I thought were

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Speaker 1: incredibly important that I needed to to to discuss that

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Speaker 1: I didn't in the article. So what was the historical

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Speaker 1: context in which bitcoin came about? Uh, there would be.

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Speaker 1: There's been people working in the cipher punk community for

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Speaker 1: at least a decade before bitcoin came about, trying to

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Speaker 1: create digital money but actually having not succeeded, many of

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Speaker 1: them were skeptical something like this was possible. But so

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Speaker 1: I wanted to provide that historical context. I also really

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Speaker 1: wanted to tackle the question of what is bitcoin. There

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Speaker 1: was a huge debate in the bitcoin community in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seventeen about you know, it's bitcoin a payment system.

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Speaker 1: Is it kind of like PayPal, ex a bit decentralized

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Speaker 1: or is it kind of like goal? Is it more

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Speaker 1: like a digital you know gold where you keep your

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Speaker 1: savings in that um And that that question was so

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Speaker 1: important it resulted in a split of the bitcoin network

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Speaker 1: really very hostile, and there's a lot of contention and

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Speaker 1: people really upset with each other. And I have a

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Speaker 1: view on what bitcoin is, and I really wanted to

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Speaker 1: explain why I think bitcoin is the way it is,

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Speaker 1: why it can only be the way it is, uh,

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Speaker 1: and how that development played out. So there's a number

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Speaker 1: of things like that that weren't in the article that

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Speaker 1: I thought were really important that I should cover up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they sound like important things. Um, I wanted to dig

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Speaker 1: into some of that, But I would like to hear

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Speaker 1: just about the kickstarter piece itself, because that's kind of

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Speaker 1: an interesting thing. Um. Maybe there's people listening that have

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Speaker 1: thought about writing a book and I'm one of them.

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Speaker 1: I and honestly, I hadn't thought about doing a book

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Speaker 1: to a kickstarter. Um, I've talked to a couple of

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Speaker 1: different publishers. I've talked to some people that assist you

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Speaker 1: with self publishing things like that. Tell me how that

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Speaker 1: process went with the kickstarter and how it ended up. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I've never written a book before. And the first

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Speaker 1: thing I did was I contacted a number of people

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Speaker 1: in the bitcoin space who had written books and who

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Speaker 1: I respect a lot of people like Sayer Dean and

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Speaker 1: Yeah Pritzka and Nick Bartia who had written great books

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, have them all on my shelf. And

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Speaker 1: I said, should I what should I do here? Should

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Speaker 1: I just go find a public a share or should

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Speaker 1: I self published? And uniformly, every single one of them

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Speaker 1: said self published. Do not use a publisher, And they

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Speaker 1: gave you know a few reasons. One is you don't

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Speaker 1: control the rights, and that dramatically reduces your flexibility of

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Speaker 1: creating derivative works, whether you can do translations. There are

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Speaker 1: all sorts of issues around that where, uh, it makes

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Speaker 1: it harder for you to control your work, and publishers

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Speaker 1: tend to be very very slow in reacting to requests.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I want to release an excerpt from

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Speaker 1: my book, a chapter to promote, to promote the book,

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Speaker 1: it can take months to get approval for that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. So that was one reason. The other reason

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Speaker 1: is you don't actually don't get paid very much if

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Speaker 1: you if you use a publisher, they do, they do

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Speaker 1: pay you upfront, but if you sell a book for

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Speaker 1: twenty dollars, you're likely to get a dollar or a

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Speaker 1: dollar fifty per book, which is not a very good

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Speaker 1: renumeration because that the effort that goes into a book

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Speaker 1: is pretty significant. You know, there's months of work where

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Speaker 1: you're writing and you're sitting down a loan and having

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Speaker 1: writer's block and actually do this. Um so, so you know,

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Speaker 1: then I thought, okay, I'm going to self publish. And

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Speaker 1: I looked at doing that, and if you self published,

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Speaker 1: you've got to do things yourself. You gotta do the

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Speaker 1: type setting yourself, the editing, you've got to hire an editing.

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Speaker 1: There are all these costs. Uh. But the benefit is

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Speaker 1: if you sell through retailers when you're self published, instead

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Speaker 1: of a dollar or a dollar fifty, you're probably gonna

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Speaker 1: get maybe five or six dollars per per copy per book,

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Speaker 1: which is great. But then I thought about Kickstarter. I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe I can launch my book on Kickstarter. And the

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Speaker 1: great thing about Kickstarter is it's this website that helps

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Speaker 1: people launch projects that may not be fully finished and

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Speaker 1: helps them fund those projects to get them out there.

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Speaker 1: As typically used for gadgets and electronics and even board

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Speaker 1: games where people are dreaming up something they want to

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Speaker 1: create and they explain to people what their vision is

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Speaker 1: and people get excited and they fund it, but people

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Speaker 1: also use it for books, and so I thought, okay,

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Speaker 1: why don't I do this? If I if I do

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Speaker 1: a Kickstarter and people taught me on this. Instead of

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Speaker 1: you know, getting a dollar fifty or five dollars, if

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Speaker 1: I self published, I'm selling directly, I'm going to get

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Speaker 1: out of twenty dollars, I'm probably gonna get about eighteen dollars,

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Speaker 1: So it renumerates me a lot more. And the benefit

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Speaker 1: is I really want to get these ideas to as

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Speaker 1: many people as possible, So I would love to have

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Speaker 1: the funding to get pay for translations myself, to own

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Speaker 1: the copyright for those translations, to get this to spread

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Speaker 1: around the world, because in my view, when people are

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Speaker 1: presented with the reasons why bitcoin is valuable and why

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Speaker 1: it's important to the world, and why it's a good

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Speaker 1: idea to keep savings in bitcoin, they really get it.

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Speaker 1: They just need to have the ideas presented in a

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Speaker 1: sort of logical clear way and have some of the

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Speaker 1: risks explained to them in an open, honest way. Once

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Speaker 1: you do that, I find I haven't had an experience

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Speaker 1: where people like, well, I still don't believe in it.

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Speaker 1: Most people I found get it. Uh So I'm excited

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Speaker 1: to have the control over my work and to get

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Speaker 1: it out and to be compensated enough that I can

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Speaker 1: fund myself, translations and marketing and all of that stuff.

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Speaker 1: So I think Kickstarter is a great way to do this.

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Speaker 1: I encourage anyone who's thinking about writting a book to

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Speaker 1: to use Kickstarter. Safer Dean his new book, He's also

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Speaker 1: launched on Kickstarter, And I think this is going to

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Speaker 1: be a trend. Actually, I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: in this space are going to recognize this is a

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Speaker 1: good way to launch your book. Uh and it's a

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Speaker 1: good way to get compensated and keep control over over

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Speaker 1: your own work. So it was a success. Then you

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Speaker 1: were able to raise enough money up front on pre

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Speaker 1: ordered the book to give you the money you need

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Speaker 1: to get it written, translated, etcetera. Yeah, so it's sold

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Speaker 1: about a hundred fifty dollars worth of books, and that's

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Speaker 1: enough for me to start working on other stuff. And

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Speaker 1: that's that that that demand is coming from kind of

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Speaker 1: the early demanding people who are most excited about it.

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Speaker 1: And then eventually it's going to get into Amazon and

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Speaker 1: Bonds and Noble and that sort of thing. But it's

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Speaker 1: kind of tapping into that early excitement and demand for

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Speaker 1: the book, uh and and and monetizing that a little

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Speaker 1: bit more than you would through Amazon. Yeah, that's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for sharing that and maybe that I said, there's

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Speaker 1: probably a lot of people are interested, and I definitely was. Um,

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Speaker 1: so I want to dive into some of these subjects here.

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Speaker 1: So um you talked about Um one of the big

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Speaker 1: things was like this economic value and framework of bitcoin

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Speaker 1: and so, um, you know, why is their value there

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Speaker 1: in the first place. And of course that's one of

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Speaker 1: the big complaints or or arguments that we might hear,

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Speaker 1: which I'm sure what's why you tackled that. Um, there's

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Speaker 1: nothing back in it. It's just like fiat or whatever

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Speaker 1: it may be, right, So we hear that all the time. Um,

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Speaker 1: some people think that, you know, I think Peter Shift

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Speaker 1: tweeted today that you know, only it has to be

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Speaker 1: commodity money, only commodities or money. Um, So walk us

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Speaker 1: through kind of this economic value framework that you said

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Speaker 1: you kind of have if you will. Yeah, of course.

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Speaker 1: So money is really it's a really difficult object to understand.

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Speaker 1: Most people don't understand why money has any value, uh,

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Speaker 1: and they haven't really thought deeply about it. So that

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Speaker 1: that that's fine. But the thing that's really hard about

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Speaker 1: money is that with other sort of assets, financial assets, Uh,

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Speaker 1: they're they're almost always valued on their cash flow. And

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Speaker 1: that's that's fairly easy to understand. So stocks or bonds

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Speaker 1: or real estate. Stocks have dividends, bonds have interest, and

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Speaker 1: real estate has rental cash flow. And you could look

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Speaker 1: at a house and say, well, why is this house

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Speaker 1: worth a million dollars? Well, it produces seventy thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: of rent per year, so that justifies it a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Whereas money doesn't. Money doesn't produce cashflow. Gold doesn't produce

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Speaker 1: cash flow. Uh, bitcoin doesn't produce a cash flow. So

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Speaker 1: why why does something like gold have value? Well, the

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Speaker 1: reason is money serves this other purpose in society and

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Speaker 1: historically has always these purposes medium of exchange and store

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Speaker 1: a value and unit of account. And through history humans

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Speaker 1: have value use certain goods ah for their attributes that

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Speaker 1: make them good at these functions of money. And we

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Speaker 1: really need money in a society because money is this

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Speaker 1: incredibly important economic good that facilitates social coordination. If we

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Speaker 1: don't if we don't have money, then we don't have

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Speaker 1: a division of labor. And if we don't have a

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Speaker 1: division of labor, we have a primitive society. We don't

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Speaker 1: have civilization. We have a barter based society where people

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Speaker 1: are trading you know, sheep for bread or whatever, and

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Speaker 1: that really limits the scope in which trade can occur.

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Speaker 1: So money is this fundamental innovation that society needs for civilization.

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Speaker 1: So what are the attributes that make for a good money? Uh?

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Speaker 1: These these attributes have been known for a long time,

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Speaker 1: all the way back to Aristotle who wrote about these

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Speaker 1: things like divisibility. You want to be able to divide

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Speaker 1: the money that you have into small pieces to use

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Speaker 1: in trade. Uh. Verifiability it should be easy to recognize

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Speaker 1: that this is money, and it's not easy to fake it. Um.

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Speaker 1: Fung Ability is another one. You want something which is

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Speaker 1: essentially equivalent to any other piece or quantity of that thing.

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Speaker 1: So gold is better as money than diamonds because diamonds

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Speaker 1: are irregular in shape and quality, so they're not as

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Speaker 1: good for trading. Uh. And probably the most important one

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Speaker 1: of all the attributes to make for good money is scarcity.

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Speaker 1: You want to have you want to keep your savings

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Speaker 1: in something that is very difficult to produce. If it's

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Speaker 1: easy to produce, then your savings are going to be

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Speaker 1: sort of diminished, very quickly over time. So gold is

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Speaker 1: much better as money than sand because if sand were money,

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Speaker 1: you could take a bucket to the beach and you'd

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Speaker 1: be rich. Right, So other people are not going to

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Speaker 1: want to keep their savings in it. But gold is

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Speaker 1: very difficult to produce. Uh So, if you look at

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Speaker 1: those attributes that make for good monetary good, gold does

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Speaker 1: really well over those attributes, and if you rank them,

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Speaker 1: Bitcoin does even better. Uh And one of the attributes

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Speaker 1: I failed to mention was portability. Bitcoin is so much

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Speaker 1: more portable than gold. I can transmit bitcoin that I

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Speaker 1: have to someone on the other end of the world

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Speaker 1: almost instantly at very low cost. But if you're going

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Speaker 1: to do that with gold, that would be very expensive.

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Speaker 1: It would be risky. Um. So, if we rank monetary

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Speaker 1: goods along these attributes that we know people demand for money,

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Speaker 1: Bitcoin comes out really really well. It's superior to gold

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Speaker 1: along almost every attribute except for established history. Gold has

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Speaker 1: this very long established history, and I think Bitcoin is

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Speaker 1: actually superior to feat moneys along every single one of

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Speaker 1: these attributes. And in my article, I have a table

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Speaker 1: where I list all of the attributes and I ranked

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Speaker 1: them as if they're you know, taking a test in college, A, B, C, D,

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Speaker 1: E F and I rank all of them. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: you can go check out my article and see this ranking.

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Speaker 1: Coin I think is superior to feat over all of

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Speaker 1: the attributes and it's um that's the reason that bitcoin

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Speaker 1: outcompetes these other monetary goods over time, because people slowly

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Speaker 1: recognize that bitcoin has attributes that they want in money

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Speaker 1: and that they need in money, and so they choose

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Speaker 1: to keep their savings in bitcoin rather than these forms

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Speaker 1: of money. And I think the thing is understanding. Knowledge

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Speaker 1: can be sorry, information can be transmitted very quickly around

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Speaker 1: the world, but understanding takes time. And so I've view

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Speaker 1: this as like a process of the understanding of bitcoin

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Speaker 1: superior superiority spreading around the world, um but inevitably growing,

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Speaker 1: which is why Bitcoin's adoption is also growing, because people

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Speaker 1: are coming to this understanding and realizing, Hey, it makes

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Speaker 1: sense for me to keep some of my savings in bitcoin. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: When you talk about the scarcity aspect um and how

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Speaker 1: gold has been really good at app you know, one

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Speaker 1: thing that I've always thought is I was a gold bug.

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Speaker 1: After two thousand and eight, after that market crashed, I

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Speaker 1: then found I became actually a sound money advocate, but um,

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Speaker 1: you know, with gold, it was always kind of like, uh,

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Speaker 1: money has to have a true cost of capital, so

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Speaker 1: like you can't just create it from thin air. It

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Speaker 1: must represent some form of energy um. And so with gold,

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Speaker 1: for example, I have to buy the land and by

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Speaker 1: the equipment and expend all the energy to get that gold.

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00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 1: So there's like a true cost of that capital um

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Speaker 1: and so um it's backed by energy, right and so

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00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:33,720
Speaker 1: um you can like look at bitcoin kind of the

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00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,479
Speaker 1: same way in a sense where it's also backed by

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Speaker 1: capital because of the equipment and the energy that's used.

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Speaker 1: So sometimes I thought, well, it's back the same as

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00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 1: gold is backed right there, both backed by energy. Is

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Speaker 1: that a good way to look at it? I think

398
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 1: absolutely correcting. That's that's the way bitcoins it produces in

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Speaker 1: this process of mining where the mine is a running

400
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:57,360
Speaker 1: software which has to expand real energy um to produce

401
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,080
Speaker 1: a new bitcoin. So and you can actually look that

402
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 1: the real cost, it's it's perfectly measurable. Unlike gold is

403
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 1: not always clear how much energy went into the production

404
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,119
Speaker 1: of goal, is very clear how much energy is expended

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00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,119
Speaker 1: to to go into a bitcoin, So there is a

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00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 1: cost of capital. And so that means that when people

407
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 1: have a bitcoin, they know that a real amount of

408
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 1: energy was put into its production and then it was

409
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 1: it's an incredibly large amount of energy. And that energy

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00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,399
Speaker 1: is what actually secures the bitcoin network, which makes it

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00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,879
Speaker 1: hard for people to fake transactions and to to create

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00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 1: fake bitcoins, because to create a new bitcoin or to

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00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 1: to do a transaction, a huge amount of energy has

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00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,679
Speaker 1: to to go into that. Uh, and that's what protects

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00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,160
Speaker 1: the integrity of bitcoins network. Yeah, yeah, that's good. It's

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00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 1: and and then I guess the last piece would just

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00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: be back to the commodity money. Right, So then of

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00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,199
Speaker 1: course back to shift not not not to bring him up,

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00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,719
Speaker 1: but you know what gold has intrinsic value. I can

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00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 1: use it as cuff links, right. Um, I like to

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Speaker 1: say that there's no such thing as intrinsic value, and

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00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,479
Speaker 1: all value is is, you know, based off of what

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Speaker 1: we decide it's worth. Um, what would you say in

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00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 1: regards to that? Right? So gold is something physical that

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00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 1: there's actually a physical value there. Yes, So people get

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00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 1: sort of caught up in the physicality of gold and

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00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 1: the circled tone of intrinsic value to justify golts price.

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00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 1: I think that's actually quite a big mistake, because if

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00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 1: you look at any form of money, it's price level

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00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,400
Speaker 1: is determined by two factors. One is its utility, it's

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00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,120
Speaker 1: kind of industrial use or whatever, or it's used for jewelry.

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Speaker 1: And the other part is the monetary premium. That is,

433
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: people aren't using it for its industrial use. They're using

434
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 1: it for its monetary role. They're using it as a

435
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: store of value or a medium exchange. And a lot

436
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 1: of the gold in the world, actually the majority of

437
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 1: gold in the world, doesn't do anything. All that does

438
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 1: is sit in vaults in banks and central banks around

439
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 1: the world, and and that demand is the monetary premium.

440
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,880
Speaker 1: And in my in my article, i explained that different

441
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: monetary goods have different monetary premiums. If you look at silver, uh,

442
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 1: it has a fairly small monetary premium. Most of the

443
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: price level of silver comes from its industrial use. Um.

444
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 1: Some people hold silver in volts, but not many. Gold

445
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: is mostly monetary premium. Uh. There are some industrial uses,

446
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: but they're actually quite small compared to the amount of

447
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 1: demand that comes from just having your gold sit there

448
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:34,360
Speaker 1: and do absolutely nothing. Bitcoin is pure monetary premium. It's

449
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: a pure form of money. Now, the mistake is that

450
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 1: people say that that tiny amount of industrial demand for

451
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 1: gold is the reason it has any value. No, it's

452
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 1: completely wrong. The majority of gold's demand comes from its

453
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: monetary uses. And actually, if gold were to stop having

454
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: any industrial uses and people decided, well, this isn't really

455
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 1: nice for jewelry anymore. There's something better that we can

456
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: create more cheaply. Uh, old would still have a high

457
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: price uh or another way of saying it, if you

458
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 1: took away gold monetary demand, its price level wouldn't be

459
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: an ounce It would probably be a hundred dollars announced.

460
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: So most of that value comes from the monetary side,

461
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 1: and Peter Shift kind of misses that, and he focused

462
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 1: on this tiny fraction of demand for gold, and he

463
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 1: thinks that's the explanation for the price level of gold. No,

464
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: money is valued for its monetary uses, and bitcoin, being

465
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 1: a pure form of money, has all of its value

466
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: determined by that. And the last point I want to

467
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: make about this is it's actually a big disadvantage for

468
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 1: a monetary good to have industrial demand. The more industrial

469
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: demand it has as a fraction of its price level,

470
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 1: the worst it is as money, because you don't want

471
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: the price level of your money to fluctuate all over

472
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 1: the place if the industrial demand moves around, like one

473
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: year there might be less demand, one year there might

474
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: be more demand. You don't want moneys to behave that way.

475
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: You want most of the value to be in that

476
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: monetary premium. Yeah. I think also on top of that, um,

477
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: we don't necessarily want those um, those materials to go

478
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 1: up in price either because they need to be used.

479
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: And so if I'm putting all my money into real

480
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: estate because dollars is no good, well then it's pushing

481
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: the price of real estate up. But now nobody can

482
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: afford a home where I'm putting it all into goal

483
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: but now pushing the price of gold up, and now

484
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: we can't use it for conducting, which is what it

485
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: should be used for for example. So there's actually maybe

486
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: a case for why non commodity money is actually superior

487
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: or better for better for society anyway. Yeah, absolutely right,

488
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: that's a good point, the point that I hadn't mentioned it.

489
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: It works in both directions. Yeah, hey, sorry to interrupt

490
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: this video just one more time. I'm not running Google ads,

491
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 1: so it's actually way less interruption than I normally would

492
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 1: have on a video UM and that's because it's sponsored

493
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: by block five UM. They are opening up the world

494
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 1: of bitcoin and financial products offering to pay you interest

495
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: on your bitcoin um better than own in a rental

496
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: property that you have to manage and control and have

497
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: the risks. You can or certain interest on it, or

498
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: you can leverage against it. Now, I plan to hold

499
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: my bitcoin forever and literally never sell my bitcoin. So

500
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: how do you do that? Well, if I need money,

501
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 1: I don't want to sell that bitcoin. I'm gonna pay

502
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: tax on it, all right, I'm gonna end up with

503
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 1: less and I don't have the bitcoin anymore. So a

504
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 1: better way to do it is to borrow against the bitcoin.

505
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: So I've put all my money into bitcoin. If I

506
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 1: want to buy a car, or I want to buy

507
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: a house, I can borrow against it at very very

508
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: low competitive rates. Get my house, get my car, whatever

509
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: that may be, and get to keep the bitcoin. I've

510
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: done a whole video on this. You can find it.

511
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: I'll link it down in the description below. How to

512
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: retire off a bitcoin without paying taxes and you can

513
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: do that with block fight services. I'll link to the

514
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: video down below. I'm also going to put a link

515
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: to block Fight. If you choose to click on that

516
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: link to check them out, you can earn up to

517
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: two fifty dollars in free bitcoin just for using that link.

518
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: And that's it. Let's go ahead and get back to

519
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: the interview. Yeah, um, if we if we jump to

520
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: a different topic of something else that you had said

521
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: that I think it is also pretty important, is that, um,

522
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: bitcoin is old technology. I hear that one all the time, right,

523
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 1: it's the old technology. It's slow, it's dumb. Um, it's

524
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: the MySpace, the Google, you know, the Facebook's coming, blah

525
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: blah blah. But to your kind of point you made earlier, Um,

526
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: it had been tried for decades without succeeding. So this

527
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: was not the first iteration. It has many generations. Maybe

528
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: to walk us through kind of that, being a being

529
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,479
Speaker 1: a Google software engineer, maybe you can explain to us

530
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: how technology kind of evolves and why maybe being a slow,

531
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: dumb bas layer is actually the best option. Yeah. So

532
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: bitcoin is this fundamental innovation in computer science. It's solved

533
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: problem in computer science that a lot of people didn't

534
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 1: think was solvable, which is it's called the Byzantine general's problem,

535
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 1: and so Toshi Nakamoto, when he published his paper in

536
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: two thousand eight, presented the first solution. And so he

537
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: made something possible that had never been possible in the

538
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: history of the world, which is to be able to

539
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 1: transmit value from one end of the globe to the

540
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 1: other end of the globe near instantly without having to

541
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: have someone in between, a trusted intermediary like a government

542
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: or a bank. And that's a that's a profound innovation

543
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: when when you the other part of your question as well,

544
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 1: other people can create these new cryptocurrencies. The thing is,

545
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: these new cryptocurrencies aren't that they add technological bells and whistles,

546
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: but they're not a fundamental innovation on top of Bitcoin.

547
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: Uh So, so the thing is here, Bitcoin is a

548
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 1: monetary good and it's valued as a monetary good. For

549
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: these new ones to to outcompete Bitcoin, they have to

550
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: improve on the monetary attributes that Bitcoin has, and none

551
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: of them, as far as I can see, have any

552
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: superior monetary attributes to Bitcoin. For instance, scarcity, and whenever

553
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: you have something, any product or service or good that

554
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: has a network effect, it's really really hard to unseat

555
00:28:54,760 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: that unless you are orders of magnitude better. UM. So, uh,

556
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,479
Speaker 1: you know, the example of Facebook and MySpace is an

557
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: interesting one. I think the only case in which, you know,

558
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: something with the network effect can be outcompeted is in

559
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: the very very early stages. Uh. You know, when my

560
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: Space was still very young, when Facebook started competing with it. Uh.

561
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: And Facebook was superior and managed to outcompete MySpace over

562
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: the network effect. But it was early enough that that

563
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: was possible. And I would say, actually, you know, Bitcoin

564
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: could have been out competed if something much better had

565
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: come along in two thousand twelve or thirteen when it

566
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: was still early. The Bitcoin is so massive now has

567
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: such a strong network effect. Um. And this encompasses many

568
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: things that encompasses that. The brand, It's the strongest brand

569
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: by far. No old coin is ever mentioned except in

570
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: the context of bitcoin. The financial infrastructure, all of the

571
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: companies that provide on ramps and off ramps to Bitcoin

572
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: and and leverage on bitcoin. There Most of these other

573
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: old coins don't have anything like that that. The community

574
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: of developers that the best cryptographers and computer scientists in

575
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: the world a committed to working on bitcoin. So there

576
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: are a number of factors like that that add to

577
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: bitcoins network effect, and it's at such a large scale

578
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: now that I don't think it's possible for it to

579
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: be out competed. Uh. And it's not about technology. It's

580
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: not about adding like some cool new thing that sounds

581
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: good on your altcoin. It's about did you provide a

582
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: better monetary attribute? Uh that's better than the ones that

583
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: bitcoin has, And I just looking at the attributes, I

584
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: don't see how that's possible. Uh, there is, I should

585
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: say there is one weakness. I think bitcoin does have.

586
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: One weakness that I think will improve over time. Is

587
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: it's fungibility. That is uh kind of the privacy aspect

588
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: of bitcoin, like, is one bitcoin equivalent to any other bitcoin?

589
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: And at the network layer that is true. Uh, any

590
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: bitcoin can be transmitted on the network like any other.

591
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: But because bitcoins blockchain is open and transparent, it is

592
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: possible to trace bitcoins. And the disadvantage there is that

593
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: a government could come along and say, well, this bitcoin

594
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: is tainted. We don't want any business to actually accept

595
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: this bitcoin. They'll go to exchanges and say here's the

596
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: list of tainted bitcoins, and that kind of reduces Bitcoin's

597
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: funge ability a little bit. Uh. Cash. You know, cash

598
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: U S dollars doesn't have this problem because it's completely

599
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: anonymous and you can't tell where it came from. So

600
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: this is one area which Bitcoin has a weakness. But

601
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: I am actually very optimistic that this is going to

602
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: improve over time through technological developments. Uh. And for instance,

603
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: there's been a protocol upgrade to Bitcoin recently that's been

604
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,239
Speaker 1: approved by the network called tap Route, which is going

605
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: to improve the privacy of bitcoin. So you know, if

606
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: a new old coin comes along and it's competing with Bitcoin,

607
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: we shouldn't look at the technology. We should look at

608
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: the monetary attributes. And Bitcoin only has, in my opinion,

609
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: one weakness, and I think that is an area it's

610
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: improving quickly over the time. Yeah, that's a that's a

611
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: good point to bring up on that weakness. It's something

612
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: that I've actually had to I've come under kind of

613
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: quite a bit of fire on recently. As a matter

614
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: of fact, I got invited and I accepted opportunity to

615
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: go onto the Monaro talk show to discuss this exact

616
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: topic with Monaro people. UM. I was more than happy

617
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: to do that. Um. You know, in regards to that

618
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: privacy problem, I mean we do have layer two technologies

619
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: like lightning, which allow you to transact the bitcoin much

620
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: more private. We also have coin joint applications where we

621
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: can kind of obfuscate if not you know, kind of

622
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: a race that history as well. So I think in

623
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: that regard you have that you know their argument as well.

624
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: You know, Monaro never had it in the first place. Um,

625
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: but it seems like if a merchant, so as you said,

626
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: like it's not done on the network level, the network

627
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: doesn't know the difference. It would be a merchant that

628
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: would be squeezed by the you know whatever regulators to

629
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: not accept that bitcoin. And so if they, if they

630
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: could accept the Monaro or whatever privacy coin you want

631
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: to use that has no history, then why wouldn't they

632
00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: just set to accept the bitcoin? Then it doesn't have

633
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: a street. I mean that's kind of that's the question,

634
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: and I kind of keep going back to you. Yeah, yeah,

635
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: And I think that's a great point. I think it's

636
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: also it's not is it not a question without trade offs?

637
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: And and people who say narrow or ze cash have

638
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: more privacy need to accept that there are trade offs.

639
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: And this is actually a really difficult question. And the

640
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: trade off is if you have perfect privacy, you lose

641
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: some ability to have auditability in the supply. And z

642
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: cash actually they found a bug in the way they

643
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: have these shielded transactions. They found a bug where they

644
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: weren't properly accounting for supply, and there was more supply

645
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: than they thought. One of the great things about bitcoins

646
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: blockchain being completely open is that we can order to

647
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: know how much supply has been created and and and

648
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: verify that it's you know, according to schedule. We know

649
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: that no more than twenty one million bitcoins will ever

650
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: be produced. So this is a technically difficult problem, and

651
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: there are trade offs, and we shouldn't sort of h

652
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: be too blase about those tradeoffs. I think some people

653
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: when they talk about this, they're like, oh, yeah, this

654
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: is easy just to use a different privacy coin, but

655
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: you have to recognize that there are weaknesses that come

656
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: from making that trade off as well. Yeah. So, UM

657
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: as a software engineer, and I look at the way

658
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: that bitcoin is done, and so we have that base layer,

659
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: but it seems like we're seeing pretty rapidly now new

660
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: technology is being built on layer two. UM, and then

661
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: now there's layer three that we have being started as well,

662
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: and so it seems like we kind of have this

663
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: this base layer that gives you that hard censorship resistant,

664
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: decentralized open, but then all the new technologies can be

665
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: built on top which didn't have those trade offs that

666
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 1: allow for those trade offs. Um, and it almost seems

667
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: like all the other all coins that are out there

668
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: that have all these bells and whistles will all probably

669
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: eventually come back and beyond the main chain. As a

670
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: software engineer, what do you think about that? Yeah, that's

671
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: a great point, and you you mentioned something earlier than

672
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: I forgot to mention. I think is really important that

673
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 1: Lightning is a privacy improving technology. It's a set and

674
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: layer on top of bitcoin where people can trade bitcoins

675
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: back and forth very quickly and very cheaply. That the

676
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 1: base layer of bitcoin is more costly and isn't really

677
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: meant for transactional use. I mean, people got confused in

678
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: the early days because there were there wasn't much usage,

679
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 1: and they thought, oh, bitcoins are payment system, a cheap

680
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,479
Speaker 1: payment system, But actually it's the settlement layer. It's really

681
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: meant for a settlement, large settlement between large financial institutions

682
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: or large holders of bitcoin who want to send, you know,

683
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: a million dollars or something like that, that the smaller

684
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: transaction should happen on higher layers. And this was actually

685
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: anticipated from the very beginning. How Finny who was one

686
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: of the people who helped develop bitcoin in the very

687
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: earliest days, he recognized that all financial systems are built

688
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: in layers, and and that's exactly exactly how Bitcoin is

689
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: being built. And I like what you said about how

690
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: this is going to suck in these extra layers are

691
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: going to suck in the features from these other old coins.

692
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, you know, to give an analogy,

693
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: it's kind of like how cell phones sucked in all

694
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: of these other features from all of these sort of

695
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 1: peripheral products. Like think about the camera. In the early

696
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: two thousand's, people had separate digital cameras that they take pictures.

697
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,919
Speaker 1: No one has that anymore. People used to buy gpss.

698
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: You remember the tom toms that you'd attached to people

699
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: that don't have that. All of these other things were

700
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: sucked into the smartphone. And I think that's a really

701
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 1: great way I hadn't thought about. A really great way

702
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 1: of thinking about it is that these extra layers are

703
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: going to pull in the feature set because it can

704
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: be done much more cheaply and and economically at the

705
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 1: high layers. And so that that parrative advantage that people

706
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: claim all coins have is all going to be brought

707
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: into Bitcoin. Yeah, and we even have now smart contracts

708
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: being done on bitcoin. So why would you want to

709
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: do a smart contract on a chain that's unsecure right

710
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: or centralized on Amazon servers for example, when you could

711
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: run smart contracts on bitcoin. Um, So it seems like

712
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: that's the way that that it's going. And if you

713
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: can do smart contracts and faster and cheaper and more

714
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: private than those eight thousand other coins don't seem to

715
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: have a whole lot of advantages that are kind of

716
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: left over. The other thing is understanding how like progress

717
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: is made. Um. I've been reading high x book The

718
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: Constitution of Liberty, and he's talking about this concept of

719
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: progress and the more people that you can get in

720
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: and the more iterations and attempts you can have, the

721
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: faster that can happen, the more progress that can happen.

722
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: And so then like on a very slow, dumb basse

723
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: layer if you want to call bitcoin that, it allows

724
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: almost unlimited options on top of that, which means innovation

725
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: could happen really fast. When you take a smarter we'll

726
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: call it that whatever, a more featured blockchain, um, it

727
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: limits the ability of things that you can build on

728
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: top of it. Yeah, I think there are um there.

729
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: This is a game where there are tradeoffs where Ethereum

730
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: tried to pack all of this functionality into the base layer,

731
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: and the tradeoff is that it becomes so complex that

732
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: it it really hinders the decentral realization. That's that's the

733
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: big trade off. Like if you want to run your

734
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: own ethereum, notice pretty costly, and it's it's slow, and

735
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: it's hard. It is actually pretty hard to people have

736
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: tried this and have written their experience about how how

737
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: difficult this is. And also like you really want that

738
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: base layer, the settlement layer, to be simple and accountable

739
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: and really really secure because that's where the majority of

740
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: value transfer is going to happen. And I think it's

741
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: something that most other old coins haven't appreciated and and

742
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 1: when they were put to the test, if they were

743
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: put to the test, they failed. So Ethereum is an

744
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: example where uh, you want to trust the base lay.

745
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: You don't want people to be able to, you know,

746
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: governments to be able to come along and say, no,

747
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: we don't like this transaction, we're gonna roll it back.

748
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 1: And it actually happened on Atherorum in the early days,

749
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: when the theory faced its most important test, it failed,

750
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 1: which is this this Dow hack where people invested a

751
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: bunch of money in this smart contract and it kind

752
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: of failed. It was it wasn't programmed properly. Metallic Budaum

753
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: came along and got the minus to roll it back.

754
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: So if you're on the ethereum and you have value

755
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: you want to transact a large amount, you can't necessarily

756
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: trust that that's gonna uh, that transaction can't be rolled back,

757
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 1: whereas Bitcoin you have a very high degree of trust

758
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: that you can't roll back those transactions. And even if

759
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: a nation state came along and said, look, we don't

760
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 1: want bitcoin to have this transaction, we're gonna precious some

761
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: developers and miners, it's very hard because of bitcoin's decentralization

762
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: to do anything like that. Yeah, and then more recently,

763
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: one of the big things that bitcoin add back to

764
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 1: your monetary principles is scarcity. And so Bitcoin, I'm sorry,

765
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: ethereum has an unlimited supply cap and was it two

766
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: months ago or so? Vitalic and and and boys got

767
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: together and they decided to give it a fixed monetary supply.

768
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: But the fact that a group of people can get

769
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: together and change the monetary supply of the network is

770
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: exactly the problem we're trying to get away from. Its

771
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: sounds like the money system, absolutely right. It's not the

772
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: supply schedule that matters. It's the credibility of the supply schedule.

773
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 1: Do you actually believe that um ethereum has a limited

774
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 1: supply or could it? Could it be changed? So so

775
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: gold has an inflation that goes forever. Two is added

776
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: to the supply of gold. But the thing about gold

777
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: supply schedule was we really trust it, We really believe

778
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: that it isn't going to explode. Bitcoin has an even

779
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 1: better supply schedule. It's ultimate scarcity. No more than twenty

780
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: one million bitcoins will ever be produced. And the good

781
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: thing about bitcoin, as opposed to its competitors, uh, is

782
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: that we trust that supply schedule. We know, because it's decentralized,

783
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: no one can come along and change it. And that's

784
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: incredibly important, And that's one of the biggest I think

785
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: comparative advantages of bitcoin over all of its competitors that

786
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: none of its competitors have. Yeah, yeah, I look, I

787
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: look at it. I worked on this new thesis I've

788
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: been presenting on these just three revolutionaries, say, those that

789
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: are converging and so, um, there's like a political social

790
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: cultural converging with the technological and converging with the financial,

791
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: and like um, problems or solutions come to problems. So

792
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: if you look at like the problems we have and

793
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: like political social cultural, like we have obviously unlimited money printing, Um,

794
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: we have censorship. But one of the big problems we

795
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: have is like we're ruled. We should be ruled by law,

796
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: but now we're ruled by men. So the Constitution was

797
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: supposed to limit the power, and everybody knew what those

798
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: rules were in advance and we could all plan our lives.

799
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 1: But today we have men that just change the rules

800
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 1: on us all the time. No, you can't eat inside anymore. Okay,

801
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: now you can't eat outside. Okay. Now if people a

802
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: plexiglass up at okay, now it's it's like that we

803
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: we can't we can't do that. And so if you

804
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: understand what the problems are. Then the solutions would be

805
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 1: censorship resistant, immutable law right, UM, no, not governance. UM.

806
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: Since there's all these things, and then when you when

807
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: you understand the problems and solutions, I mean it very

808
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: quickly narrows it down to like only one option or that. So, UM,

809
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: I love the way that you put all this together. UM.

810
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: As you said, there's a lot of other good books.

811
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: You mentioned Layered Money, and of course next book on

812
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: that is great. There's so much good information, um you

813
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: said earlier. UM, you know you kind of put this

814
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: together to relay information in a good, smooth way, and

815
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: I think that's so important today. UM. And so I'm

816
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: encouraged by it, and and hopefully other people are. UM.

817
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: I think that the ideas, good ideas win because they're

818
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: good ideas and if you can and if you can

819
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: share that information in the right way, then it wins. UM.

820
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: Right now, we kind of have this problem. Uh. We

821
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: don't need to dive into much, but you know, toxic uh,

822
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: toxic stuff in the in the space where it's kind

823
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: of like this cancel culture where it's like have fun

824
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 1: stained poor kind of a thing, and it's like there

825
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: could be a really good response that was given intelligently

826
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: that could actually change that person's mind as opposed to

827
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: kind of pushing them back and maybe digging their their

828
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: hills and even more. Yeah, I mean I agree with

829
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 1: what you say about truth prevailing. There's actually a Latin

830
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: phrase and trying to remember it's something like magnet es

831
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: veritas it preval a bit, which means truth is the

832
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: truth is great and it will prevail. And I agree

833
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: with that because if you present people with the truth

834
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: and you give them the reasons so that they can

835
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: reason about its, reason about it themselves, it's almost inevitable.

836
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 1: Because when you when you talk to someone or when

837
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: you present a book to them, for instance, and they're

838
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: reading your book, you're rewiring their brain. They're they're processing

839
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 1: the information that you present and if it makes sense

840
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: and you provide the correct reasons, you are rewiring their

841
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: brain to recognize something as truth. Which is why I

842
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: think we have an advantage when we present true ideas,

843
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: when we present them compelling lee and simply uh people,

844
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: people want to accept them and they see their importance.

845
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: And that's in my experience uh talking about bitcoin with people,

846
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: that when when these ideas are presented simply, people get

847
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: really excited about them. Yeah awesome. Well we're gonna gohead

848
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 1: and wrap it up with that. I know you gotta

849
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: get going and I appreciate you sharing that. UM. We'll

850
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: make sure UM to link to I guess I don't

851
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: know what we're linking to. Your books not available yet?

852
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: But where should people follow? Twitter? I guess is probably

853
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: the best. Yeah, you get you follow follow me at Twitter.

854
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: That's the best place. So I'll keep updating people on

855
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 1: Twitter about when the book will be in stores. I'm

856
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 1: hoping it's within a month. My kickstarted campaign has ended,

857
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: and I want to get the books out to the

858
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: people who supported me, and then I want to get

859
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: them out in stores so the wider population can get them.

860
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: But yet Twitter, I'm real underscore of VJ at Twitter.

861
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: Yeah awesome. All right, Well with that, we'll go ahead

862
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: and sign out. Thanks so much for joining. Thanks man,

863
00:44:49,040 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: all right four assssssssssss