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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

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Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five.

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Speaker 2: Or she had us an email at trust Me pod

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Speaker 2: at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, trust me, trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat purse.

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Speaker 1: I've never lived.

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Speaker 5: To you, I never have a live.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 1: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about colts, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and the abusive power from two mortals who've actually

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Speaker 1: experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth and

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Speaker 1: today our guests are Lauren and John Matthias, hosts of Hidden,

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Speaker 1: a true crime podcast. So Lauren is a journalist and

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Speaker 1: John is a forensic psychologist, and the two of them

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Speaker 1: are a bona fide true crime power couple. So, given

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Speaker 1: their expertise and the extensive research they've done on this

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Speaker 1: case in particular, we're going to be discussing the case

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Speaker 1: of Chad day Bell and Lauri Valo, the mother who

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Speaker 1: believed in Chad's teaching so strongly that she had two

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Speaker 1: of her own children killed in twenty nineteen, on top

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Speaker 1: of three other murders and or mysterious deaths of people

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Speaker 1: close to the couple. So in Part one this week,

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Speaker 1: we will start by diving in with Chad and Laurie's

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Speaker 1: separate lives as church going Mormons prior to meeting each other.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk about the LDS fiction novels that Chad wrote

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Speaker 2: and Laurie fangirled out about how he took on the

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Speaker 2: role of profit, the belief that Chad's followers shared that

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Speaker 2: certain people are zombies that must be dealt with, and

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Speaker 2: Laurie's questionable parenting history, including some possible Munchausen bi proxy.

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Speaker 2: Plus we'll get into lots more about Laurie's brother, the murders,

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Speaker 2: and the mini twists and turns in the story, and

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Speaker 2: Part two next week.

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Speaker 1: Stay tuned, y'all before we dive in. And I have

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Speaker 1: to say, I fucking love these guests, and now I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I want to be their best friends and with them

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Speaker 1: and also just listen to their podcast because they're so

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Speaker 1: interesting and engaging. But and you guys will hear me

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Speaker 1: nerd out about forensic psychology be prepared. But in the meantime, Megan,

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Speaker 1: please tell me what the culties thing that's happened to

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Speaker 1: you this week was.

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Speaker 2: Well, I just now that you mention it, I mean

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Speaker 2: probably going home for Thanksgiving?

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Speaker 1: Oh really?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: You know, so I was planning on going to church

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Speaker 2: with my family, but church while I was home was

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Speaker 2: in my house on Sunday. Excuse me, go on, right,

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Speaker 2: because the you know, the meetings take place and a home,

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Speaker 2: so it was in my actual home, which makes it

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Speaker 2: a little bit hard not to just walk up the

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Speaker 2: stairs and go.

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Speaker 1: To church.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I put on a long dress, I went upstairs,

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Speaker 2: and I did it.

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Speaker 1: Well, don't you correct me if I'm wrong. I was

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Speaker 1: under the impression that every time you go home you

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Speaker 1: go to church with your family.

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Speaker 2: Because they want you to absolutely do. But after this podcast,

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Speaker 2: I was like no more.

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Speaker 1: Oh interesting, you caved.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I have you know, now this like big

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Speaker 2: group chat with people who also used to be in

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Speaker 2: this religion, and they're like, don't do it. Don't go

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Speaker 2: go out to breakfast, go do this, and I was

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Speaker 2: like I will, And then cut to me sitting in

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Speaker 2: a long dress being.

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Speaker 1: Like Jesus saved us. Okay, unrelated this group chat of

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Speaker 1: former members. What a platform do you use? I'm so

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Speaker 1: curious Instagram? Oh that's nice. Yeah, okay, cool. So they

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Speaker 1: encourage you to resist in you to but you know what,

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Speaker 1: it's your own house. How are your parents gonna not notice?

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It was my boyfriend was like, we have to walk

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Speaker 2: up the stairs and just sit down, like it's too

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Speaker 2: crazy upstairs.

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Speaker 1: Church seems like it would be downstairs. No, I mean

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Speaker 1: we're in the basement. They're on the main floor. Like

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Speaker 1: when I'm fixating totally relevant details, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: that's okay. How did it feel? It felt fine.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't as passive aggressive as I normally interpret it

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Speaker 2: to be, you know, with people being like and we

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Speaker 2: just pray for people who've lost the way and blah

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: There wasn't much of that, so I felt chill. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: then good job, thank you. What about you? I was

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Speaker 1: trying to decide because I feel like there was so

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Speaker 1: there's so many news stories this week. Okay, so tempted

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Speaker 1: to talk about the Brittany Murphy doc, but also tempted

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Speaker 1: to talk about Elizabeth Holmes.

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Speaker 2: Let's do Elizabeth Holmes and talk about Brittany Murphy next

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Speaker 2: week because I want to talk about.

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Speaker 1: Her too, Okay, Okay, cool. Yeah, So Elizabeth Holmes, y'all

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Speaker 1: should know who she is by now. I'm sure we've

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Speaker 1: talked about her before. She's the founder of how do

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Speaker 1: you say it? Theranos, not Theranos, not Thanos. So she

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Speaker 1: founded that and it turned out to be like a

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Speaker 1: bullshit company for anyone who doesn't know. Do you remember

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Speaker 1: what the documentary is called. Okay, it's called The Inventor

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Speaker 1: Out for Blood in Silicon Valley. I knew Silicon Valley

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Speaker 1: was in the title. Well, we together, we almost have

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Speaker 1: the title. Sorry, y'all, we're sharing one mic today, so

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Speaker 1: we have to kind of delay our reactions. Okay. So

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Speaker 1: they're going through her trial, so basically overview, she founded

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Speaker 1: a company that claimed to be able to test your

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Speaker 1: blood so rapidly that you could do it at home

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Speaker 1: for like disease or whatever, and it turned out to

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Speaker 1: be basically total bullshit. It was not real. They scanned

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people. So now today I'm reading the

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Speaker 1: news that she is saying that her right hand man,

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Speaker 1: who was her romantic partner. That and they hid their

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Speaker 1: relationship for like ten years or whatever. Was abusive and

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Speaker 1: had total control over her life. So here are some quotes.

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Speaker 1: So she met him right after she'd been apparently raped

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Speaker 1: in college, and the quote is he said that I

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Speaker 1: was safe now that I had met him. They began

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Speaker 1: living together in two thousand and nine. And here's another quote.

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Speaker 1: He told me that I didn't know what I was

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Speaker 1: doing in business, that my convictions were wrong, that he

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Speaker 1: was astonished by my mediocrity, and that if I followed

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Speaker 1: my instincts, I was going to fail, she said, pausing

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Speaker 1: to wipe her nose as she teared up. Mister Balwani

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Speaker 1: is his name, frequently told her to kill her old

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Speaker 1: self and quote, become a new Elizabeth to be successful

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Speaker 1: in business. What do we think? Give me your thoughts.

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Speaker 2: I think this is complete and utter bullshit to the

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Speaker 2: ultimate degree. I've read a lot of their text messages.

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Speaker 2: I do not think that she was submissive to him

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Speaker 2: in the least.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you've actually rather text sweeight like, okay, tell me

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Speaker 1: what kind of content it was in there, because I

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Speaker 1: haven't looked at them. A lot of her just being

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Speaker 1: like no, I'm not doing that. I think it should

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Speaker 1: be this way. No way, Okay, okay, this is great

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Speaker 1: to know. This is important content because the article I

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Speaker 1: was reading said there are some texts that corroborate X,

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Speaker 1: Y and Z, but it wasn't clear how much it

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Speaker 1: corroborated the overall picture, like she's crying in court, but

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Speaker 1: is she crying in court? Because it makes sense to

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Speaker 1: cry in court? I could feasibly see a scenario in

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Speaker 1: which it looks like someone is like in control and

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Speaker 1: being ruthless and doing this whole business, but there is

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Speaker 1: someone else who has control over her or him. So

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Speaker 1: upon first reading it, my instinct is like, that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if that's true. But you're saying she's like

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Speaker 1: openly defiant in their texts, and it's like, does not

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Speaker 1: read like someone who is submitting to someone in my

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Speaker 1: opinion from what I have seen so far. Now, so

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Speaker 1: maybe just just some classic psychopath shit, just some classic

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Speaker 1: psychopath shit will be more will be determined, hopefully. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I always wonder about relationships between two people who have

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Speaker 1: dark try it as we will discuss either in this

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Speaker 1: week or next week's episode. Personality disorders, Like how do

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Speaker 1: two narcissists. I'm aware of one couple that I have

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Speaker 1: in mind right now that I will not name, but

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Speaker 1: two musicians. How do they date each other? Like, how

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Speaker 1: do they what do they talk about? How do they

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Speaker 1: both of them are just like ruthlessly thinking about their

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Speaker 1: own well being?

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Speaker 2: Well, if they're both narcissistically complimenting the other, then it's

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Speaker 2: perfect until one of them starts dropping the ball. Those

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Speaker 2: relationships are usually pretty drama free.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the love bombing lasts like four dates though, right,

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Speaker 1: and then it's over, So like, what do you do

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Speaker 1: after that?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think the two nurses somehow just I've

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Speaker 2: known a couple myself new date and they somehow seem

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Speaker 2: to cancel each other out until until one of them

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Speaker 2: starts disappointing the other.

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Speaker 1: I actually can think of another musician couple who I

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Speaker 1: shall not name. I've been convinced she's a psychopath since

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Speaker 1: the day I met her. I've mentioned her in other episodes.

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Speaker 1: But she's dating a guy who seems to be very

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Speaker 1: very similar, and I think for them, they're both using

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Speaker 1: each other for status and credibility, so it almost doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter what the particulars of the relationship bar because as

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Speaker 1: long as they're both benefiting from that relationship, it works.

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Speaker 1: I guess if you're running a company and like making

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Speaker 1: money and getting the power that you want, it kind

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Speaker 1: of doesn't matter if you get along. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: what do you think. I think that's exactly what it does. Yeah, okay, great,

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Speaker 1: well you figured it out. Chime in everyone, let us

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Speaker 1: know what you think. All right. I think it's about

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Speaker 1: time to start talking too. Lauren and John do it okay?

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Speaker 5: Hi, I'm Caitlin Van Maull, host of I Survived. If

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Speaker 5: you enjoy I Survived, we are excited to announce a

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Speaker 5: new launch. Starting November fifteenth, will be reposting our classic

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Speaker 5: episodes from season one of I Survived. We hope to

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Speaker 5: reach a whole new audience with these important stories of survival,

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Speaker 5: and for those of you who have been with us

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Speaker 5: since the beginning, we think these powerful episodes weren't another listen.

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Speaker 5: Starting November fifteenth, look out for those episodes and more

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Speaker 5: news from I Survived.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Lauren and John Matthias to the show. Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for coming on.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, You're welcome.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 1: You guys both host a podcast called hidden a true

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Speaker 1: crime podcast. Can you tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: yourselves and your podcast and how you came to research

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Speaker 1: the case of Lori Vallo and Chad Dave Bell specifically.

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Speaker 4: Yes, Well, I am a journalist, I was a TV

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Speaker 4: reporter for ten years, and my husband is I'm.

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Speaker 7: A forensic psychologist. I'm assessing criminals for over twenty years

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Speaker 7: at least, let's just keep it in twenty years.

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Speaker 4: And we were set up on a blind date. We

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Speaker 4: were far apart, like we were long distance, I guess

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Speaker 4: that's the way to say it. Our first conversation was

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Speaker 4: like two or three hours along, and we like covered

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Speaker 4: like three murders.

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Speaker 7: So definitely, Yeah, nothing says romance more than murder discussions.

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Speaker 4: I agree, honestly, romance involving true crimes. So we felt

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Speaker 4: like it was only appropriate to cover true crime on

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Speaker 4: a podcast, and we picked for our first case, Da

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Speaker 4: Da Da, a very cultish case, the Lory and Chad

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Speaker 4: day Bell case.

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Speaker 6: And I think it was.

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Speaker 4: Because I just had so many questions for him, and

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Speaker 4: I kept bringing him questions over and over and over again,

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Speaker 4: at how does this happen? How could this be possible?

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Speaker 4: How could someone believe in these crazy things. How can

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Speaker 4: they create this cult? And so he would just help

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Speaker 4: me understand it, and we finally decided, you know what,

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Speaker 4: why don't we start recording these conversations at our dining

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Speaker 4: room table, And here we are.

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Speaker 7: We had talked about starting a true crime podcast early

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Speaker 7: on in our marriage, but we just never had the

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Speaker 7: time to get to it. And then the pandemic struck

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Speaker 7: and we were in quarantine, and guess what, all the

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Speaker 7: prisons in jails shut down, so I had no work

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Speaker 7: for many months. So that gave us the window to

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Speaker 7: do it. And I guess there was a certain amount

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Speaker 7: of courage involved, probably too, but we took that opportunity

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Speaker 7: to really express our passions for talking about true crime

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Speaker 7: and each in our different ways.

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Speaker 1: Quickly, John, what does your day to day job generally

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Speaker 1: look like?

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Speaker 7: The bulk of my job is actually report writing. I

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Speaker 7: think a lot of people probably wouldn't understand that. So

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Speaker 7: I'll go into prisons or jaws. I'll typically get a

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Speaker 7: referral from attorneys, either prosecutors or defense attorneys or DA's

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Speaker 7: to assess risk among criminals that have either committed sex

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Speaker 7: crimes or violent crimes, and in some cases murders, although

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Speaker 7: murders are less common because they're more likely to get

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Speaker 7: adjudicated without a psychological evaluation. So my job is to

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Speaker 7: go into prisons and jails and sit in front of

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Speaker 7: some of the highest risk inmates in the country and

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Speaker 7: assess their risk for recidivism or to develop a psychological

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Speaker 7: profile of their motivations for committing crimes. So if they

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Speaker 7: go to trial, for example, attorneys will often want to

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Speaker 7: know why something happened, So I do that, and then

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Speaker 7: I spend a lot of time doing research and reports.

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Speaker 7: I'll write the information up, which takes longer, actually takes

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Speaker 7: longer to do the reports and do the evaluations after

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Speaker 7: the fact. And that's for me, that's where the learning

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Speaker 7: process always really occurs, because I'm constantly having to dig

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Speaker 7: into new avenues for research and ideas, and so it's

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Speaker 7: been a real growth experience over the last twenty years.

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Speaker 1: For anyone who doesn't know, recidivism means just like going

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Speaker 1: back to jail after you've been in jail, right right.

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Speaker 7: It means let's say someone's accused of rape and then

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Speaker 7: they're in prison for five years and they get out

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Speaker 7: and they rape again. Recidivism is a reoffense, right right, right,

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Speaker 7: it's being arrested again.

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Speaker 3: And being probably charged again for another crime. Right.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, your job is the job that I wanted

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Speaker 1: to have when I was one, a te starling. I did, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did so badly. I was like when I was seventeen,

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know what, maybe music is impractical.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I should just join the FBI and profile serio killers.

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Speaker 1: And then I didn't do it. But you're doing it,

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Speaker 1: and that's great.

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Speaker 7: Well, it's one of our lessons from our podcast is

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Speaker 7: it's number too late, so the windows still open if

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Speaker 7: you want to.

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Speaker 1: Well, I get enough of I think that it just

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Speaker 1: scratched enough with the podcast.

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Speaker 6: Cold Now Andy music, So you've got to get that

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Speaker 6: once exactly.

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Speaker 7: Just a little disclaimer for those interested in my field,

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Speaker 7: criminal psychology. It seems like it would be kind of

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Speaker 7: romantic and interesting, and it is.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 7: It's a definite challenge and it's definitely pushed my you know,

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Speaker 7: my limits, and I've learned a tremendous amount from it.

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Speaker 7: But you know, there's a there's a dark side. It's

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Speaker 7: it's dealing with really sick people all the time and

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Speaker 7: having to process that and and I'm talking.

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Speaker 3: About not just murderers.

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Speaker 7: I've seen death row, innates, child rapists, right, I've worked

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Speaker 7: with everything, and so I think in that sense it

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Speaker 7: does take a toll. There's a lot of benefits and

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Speaker 7: it's it's super interesting, but it's also difficult work. And

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Speaker 7: the other thing that's difficult is no matter what side

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Speaker 7: I'm on, it's it's an adversarial process in the court system.

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Speaker 7: So if I write a report, say for a prosecutor,

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Speaker 7: the defense attorney, well hire their expert to dispute it.

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Speaker 7: So it's this constant process of whatever work you do

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Speaker 7: is going to be totally critique, don't undermined and right,

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Speaker 7: so you kind of have to have a thick skin

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Speaker 7: to deal with people attacking you a lot, or at

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Speaker 7: least critiquing you quite a bit. Right.

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Speaker 1: Wow, interesting, Well podcast power Couple really Okay, So I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty confident that most of our listeners know the like

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Speaker 1: general gist of this case, but can you kind of

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Speaker 1: describe the broad strokes as an overview before we start

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Speaker 1: really diving in.

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I hope they do know the basics, because you

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Speaker 4: need like a spreadsheet and a graph art to like

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Speaker 4: really jump into all everything, But I would say, in

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Speaker 4: general terms, a small cult was formed out of fringe

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Speaker 4: LDS offshoot. So within the LDS or Mormon Church, a

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Speaker 4: fringe offshoot was created and multiple people died, including spouses

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Speaker 4: and children. Is that a good summary or do you

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Speaker 4: want to see delve in even more?

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Speaker 7: No, you know, that's a real bare bones approach. But yeah,

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Speaker 7: I think I think that's the gist of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 7: that I mean, and I'm not even sure. I think

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Speaker 7: we still debate whether it was a cult.

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Speaker 3: Because it was.

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Speaker 7: It was not especially well organized. It wouldn't be considered

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Speaker 7: like a large cold and it would be unclear like

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Speaker 7: who was in and who was out, and you know,

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Speaker 7: it wasn't kind of your typical cult of like a

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Speaker 7: Korrash David Koresh type nature, you know, like a waygo

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Speaker 7: type cold.

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Speaker 4: Or it happened really quickly, and I think that the

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Speaker 4: I think though that had there not been arrest made

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Speaker 4: and people discovering what was happening, it would have grown

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Speaker 4: and it would have been worse and there would have

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Speaker 4: been more murders.

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Speaker 6: So I'll take it a step further. It's about Chad

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Speaker 6: and Lori day Bell.

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Speaker 4: I would call Chad Dave Bell, the cult leader, and

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Speaker 4: his now wife Lourie day Bell, was once Lori Valo.

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Speaker 4: Lori Valo had children, Chad had children, and they were

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Speaker 4: both happily married and active in their separate all the

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Speaker 4: Faith's Chad and Idaho Laurie in Arizona they met. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: soon Chad decided that Laurie Valo's husband, Charles, was a zombie,

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Speaker 4: and soon Charles Valo was killed in quote self defense.

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Speaker 4: Laurie is now charged in his murder. Soon Chad's wife

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Speaker 4: was also deemed a zombie and she was killed. And

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Speaker 4: then all of a sudden we discover that Lourie's two children,

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Speaker 4: sixteen year old Tylee Ryan and seven year old jj Vallo,

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Speaker 4: were missing and they were later discovered buried in Chad

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Speaker 4: day Bell's yard. Oh if that helps yes to understand

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Speaker 4: the basics.

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Speaker 1: And Chad day Bell used to be a grave digger.

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Speaker 7: Correct, Yeah, he started his own publishing company, but he

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Speaker 7: worked for the majority of his adult life in cemeteries.

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Speaker 7: So technically he was a cemetery sext and which means

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Speaker 7: he would oversee the cemetery operations, but he was involved

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Speaker 7: in digging graves, probably not himself. But I mean, I

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Speaker 7: guess I can imagine him like taking out a back

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Speaker 7: home right and digging a grave, a grave when you

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Speaker 7: know labor was short in his department or something.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, he was. He was around cemeteries and death

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Speaker 3: all the time.

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Speaker 1: So the zombie element. I just learned that today. I've

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Speaker 1: been hearing about this case for a long time. I

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Speaker 1: had no idea that that was what they believed. That

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Speaker 1: is fascinating. Okay, So can you just tell us, like,

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Speaker 1: who was Chad Daybell prior to this case. Did he

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Speaker 1: have a history of like having strange beliefs or like

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Speaker 1: getting people kind of in his inner circle to believe

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Speaker 1: in him? What was the deal?

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Speaker 4: Chad Daybell had no criminal history at all. In fact,

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Speaker 4: he would be a middle aged, almost fifty year old

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Speaker 4: man who went to church every week, lived in Rexburg, Idaho,

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Speaker 4: a small community where over ninety percent of the population

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Speaker 4: is LDS. He was respected, he was considered to be humble,

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Speaker 4: and then he wrote novels. He wrote doomsday LDS books

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Speaker 4: that were actually sold. They were actually sold in Deseret Book.

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Speaker 4: Oh wow, they were, Yes, they were sold in Desert Book.

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Speaker 6: You understand what that means.

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Speaker 4: I could tell you're like, wow, that makes an LDS bookstore.

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Speaker 4: The LDS bookstore, Yeah, owned by Bonneville communication, I believe,

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Speaker 4: and so not all of them, but many of them

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Speaker 4: were sold there.

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Speaker 6: He said his books were fiction.

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Speaker 4: Later we're learning that he believed them to be true

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Speaker 4: and many of them follow a similar path that these

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Speaker 4: murders take. So there's definitely some indoctrination and some belief

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Speaker 4: of his that was very odd. And John's read all

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Speaker 4: of his books. I don't know if we want to

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Speaker 4: delve into what his books are about.

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Speaker 2: And Laurie was a fan of his books, right, that's

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Speaker 2: how she met him. Okay, Yeah, so these books must

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Speaker 2: be quote unquote good to people who are drawn to this.

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Speaker 1: Kind of thing.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, in the sense that they're I think I would

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Speaker 7: call them prepper books or apocalyptic books. You know, they're

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Speaker 7: creating a fantasy of a future. They're they're creating this

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Speaker 7: fiction of the future that obviously hasn't come to pass

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Speaker 7: and probably.

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Speaker 3: Won't come to pass.

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Speaker 7: But yes, his books are I think, play a really

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Speaker 7: important role in this whole story.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And so that's who he is, and a father

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Speaker 4: of five and someone married nearly thirty years.

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Speaker 7: So just and just to add quickly to that, I

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Speaker 7: would add a little bit of a psychological profile. You know,

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Speaker 7: he grows up in a very typical Mormon home. By that,

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Speaker 7: I mean they're not super extreme, but they attend church regularly.

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Speaker 7: They there's not a lot of emotions that get processed

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Speaker 7: in the in the family. But within that context, I

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Speaker 7: think Chad feels like he's not getting enough in the acknowledgment.

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Speaker 7: I think Chad feels like he's somewhat neglected, that he

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Speaker 7: really wants to stand out, and he really wants to

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Speaker 7: be special. And I think it begins in his family

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Speaker 7: in the sense that although there's no abuse or nothing,

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Speaker 7: you know, horrific going on in his family, that's not

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Speaker 7: how he feels.

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Speaker 3: He feels like he's not.

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Speaker 7: Getting enough attention, not getting enough love, not getting enough acknowledgment.

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Speaker 7: So I think one thing that's interesting about this case

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Speaker 7: is the fact that many people think, oh, you know,

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Speaker 7: the way to create a serial killer is to abuse

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Speaker 7: them right in childhood or they have some type of trauma,

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Speaker 7: and that turns out to be true for most serial killers.

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Speaker 7: But here this is a little bit of anomaly. You

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Speaker 7: have someone who doesn't kind of fit that profile. Of

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Speaker 7: someone who came from a very abusive background, but in

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Speaker 7: the sense that he feels neglected that from his perspective

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Speaker 7: and his worldview, he feels like he's much more deserving

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Speaker 7: of attention and he's much more special than his family

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Speaker 7: is acknowledging that.

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Speaker 6: More special Q narcissism.

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Speaker 1: It's so rare. I feel like that these guys have

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Speaker 1: no criminal history. Well that's what I do.

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Speaker 2: You think that they were like both benign, just kind

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Speaker 2: of strange people, and then they met in it that's

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Speaker 2: what got this whole thing rolling, because neither of them

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00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 2: really have a criminal history, and it seems like they're

440
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 2: the spark for each other.

441
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't you know, Yeah, it's an interesting question.

442
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 7: I mean, as a forensic psychologist, certainly, the first thing

443
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 7: I'm going to look at is criminal history. It's true

444
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 7: that the past predicts the future, so if someone has

445
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 7: a history of violence, they're much more likely to commit

446
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,439
Speaker 7: future violence. But there's little elements in Chad's past that

447
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 7: he talks about in his autobiography that sort of stand out.

448
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 7: One of those is when he was in the fifth grade,

449
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 7: he was walking home from school and he saw some

450
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 7: bees and he just thought it would be cool to

451
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 7: kill all the bees by stomping on them. Oh, and

452
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 7: then he talks about how he took delight in that, So, right,

453
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 7: there's a certain element of there's a sadistic quality to that.

454
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 3: Interesting.

455
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 7: Also, in the third or fourth grade, he writes a

456
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 7: book about murder and how somebody gets away with murder, which,

457
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 7: you know, I think that's pretty harmless for the most part.

458
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 7: But then when you look at it now, when you

459
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 7: look back, you have to think, this is someone who's

460
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 7: thinking about this. You know, this is this is on

461
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 7: his radar right as a kid, you know, so it is.

462
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 7: I think it is a little atypical. So I think

463
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 7: there doesn't always have to be a criminal history. I

464
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 7: think it's it's more about what's in the mind of

465
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 7: the murderer from an early age and kind of how

466
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 7: they see the world too. And also there's plenty of

467
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 7: psychopaths out there who don't get caught, right, true, so

468
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 7: you know, there could be all kinds of crimes going

469
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,959
Speaker 7: on with Laurie. In fact, we're pretty certain that there

470
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 7: are a lot of crimes with thora where she was

471
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 7: never caught.

472
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 3: Right.

473
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 4: So oddly, Chat is the cult leader, the mastermind, but

474
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 4: he essentially broke bad like he write, where Laurie day

475
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 4: Bell was the follower, but she was action oriented and

476
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 4: she might have this criminal past where she was never caught,

477
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 4: but so she wasn't necessarily breaking bad if that makes

478
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 4: sense right.

479
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 6: And yes, they came together.

480
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 7: And who although the narrative, interestingly, the narrative of the

481
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 7: Cox family, which is Laurie's family of origin, their narrative

482
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 7: is that she met Chad and then she broke bad.

483
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 7: But we're pretty convinced that that's not the case. That

484
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 7: there were a lot of criminal like activities going on

485
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 7: with Laurie way before.

486
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 3: She met Chad.

487
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: That's super interesting and that is going to be my

488
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: next question. Random side note, have you guys seen the

489
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 1: movie Heavenly Creatures? I have no, We have.

490
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 3: No, not yet. We'll put it on our list.

491
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 1: It's a very random parallel that I'm drawing. It's a

492
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 1: true story these two girls who met and were like

493
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: relatively normal and they sort of came obsessed with each

494
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: other and ended up stabbing one of their moms together

495
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: like they plotted to do that. And I just think

496
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: that that idea is really interesting of two people who

497
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: are just like when they come together, there's like an

498
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: explosion that happens.

499
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is an interesting question.

500
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 7: A lot of people have talked about, like the idea

501
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 7: of folly I Do, which is kind of a collective,

502
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 7: you know, a diadic type delusion.

503
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 3: But I don't.

504
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 7: I honestly don't think it's that. That's gotten a lot

505
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 7: of press. I don't think it's that because I think

506
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 7: their dynamic is a little different. You know, Chad is

507
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 7: clearly in charge, Chad is kind of running the show,

508
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 7: whereas the FOLLI I Do kind of implies that there's

509
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 7: some reciprocity between the two. I think there is a

510
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 7: little reciprocity in the sense that they're well. One of

511
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 7: the ways you can radicalize people is through love, and

512
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 7: I think Chad in particular, were so smitten with Laurie

513
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 7: that whatever his beliefs were, they.

514
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 3: Became much more extreme.

515
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 7: That he had kind of this excessive fantasy of his

516
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 7: ideal woman, and that ideal woman looked a lot like Laurie,

517
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 7: and once he kind of bought into that and found her,

518
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 7: I think he became much more radicalized.

519
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 3: He became much more extreme.

520
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,360
Speaker 7: He was willing to go to greater lengths to make

521
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 7: sure that she didn't leave him.

522
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: And what was when you say he had this fantasy

523
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: of a like, what what was that? Do we know

524
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:10,239
Speaker 1: what that was?

525
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 4: Well? Yeah, let me share with you a little bit

526
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 4: about Lori Valo. So raised, Mormon, blonde, cute, cheerleader in

527
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 4: high school, very skinny, thin. I think, Lola, you've had

528
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 4: experience with the LDS faith. I think this could be

529
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 4: considered a typical LDS beautiful Yeah, is that fair to

530
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 4: say totally?

531
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 6: Yeah?

532
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, she was fit, she was very petite. I think

533
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 4: that he always wanted this cheerleader homecoming queen. There was

534
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 4: almost something juvenile about it. She was almost fifty herself, but.

535
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 3: Not almost something there was, Yeah.

536
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 4: But it's something childlike about her, a little bit, you know,

537
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 4: like he was going back to some sort of high

538
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 4: school fantasy. Maybe when he was, you know, an LDS

539
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 4: he needed boy. But she also in addition to that,

540
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 4: I want to share that she was the primary president

541
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 4: even oh wow, that means in the LDS congregation, she

542
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 4: was in charge of all of the children. She would

543
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 4: and we've spoke to a counselor who was someone was

544
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,239
Speaker 4: a counselor with her in the primary presidency, and they

545
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 4: said she was a wonderful primary president and she would

546
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 4: bring the children gifts and help sing with them, and just.

547
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 6: Know how did you explain it? Yeah, that's super cultural cultural.

548
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 7: I think he had very he had very stereotypical visions

549
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 7: of success and kind of having the not quote hot

550
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 7: unquote blonde.

551
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:45,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was part of that.

552
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 7: This wasn't a guy who thought outside the box very much.

553
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 7: He wasn't a guy that challenged convention. So I think

554
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 7: he was very much stuck in kind of those cultural

555
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 7: cliches about who to be with and what they should

556
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 7: look like and what success meant.

557
00:27:59,520 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 3: Right.

558
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: It didn't challenge conventions except for when it came to

559
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: believing that living humans are zombies.

560
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 6: Right, including his mistress's children.

561
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: Right.

562
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: So when you said that Laurie had her own sort

563
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: of history, we now think of criminality or you know,

564
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: potential bad behavior. What does that look like? What does

565
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: that mean?

566
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 4: I speculate first off, that she might be a psychopath,

567
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 4: someone that doesn't feel distress emotions. When I say that,

568
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 4: I just mean someone that was damaged in childhood, that

569
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 4: clearly struggles with feeling things that normal humans feel. I

570
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 4: think she maybe tried to be normal and then in

571
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 4: her history, although no one can know for certain, we

572
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 4: speculate that there might be another death of an earlier husband,

573
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 4: her daughter's oh, her daughter's father. It would be a

574
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 4: separate thing, in a separate motive. She didn't like her

575
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 4: ex husband who was her daughter's father, but he did

576
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 4: die young.

577
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 6: There are no charges.

578
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 4: They say it's natural, but there's a lot of speculation

579
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 4: with some you know, interesting theories.

580
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 7: If the question is prior criminality. I think the most

581
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 7: interesting thing about Laurie is she tends to use drugs

582
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 7: and medication to control people. The more common way of

583
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 7: saying that would be that she poisons people. So so yeah,

584
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 7: and it's not you know, it's a part of this case.

585
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 7: It's it's a part of this case that I don't

586
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 7: think it's been discussed enough. We're actually going to be

587
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 7: doing a upcoming podcast where we talk about that. So

588
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 7: one manifestation of that is the old term is Munchausen's biproxy.

589
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 7: You know, where you typically you harm or poison or

590
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 7: hurt a child and then that child ends up in

591
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 7: the hospital a lot and they don't know why. So

592
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 7: a lot of it has to do with the parent,

593
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 7: often the mother seeking attention in that scenario, and Tylee

594
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 7: was in the hospital all the time.

595
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: Wow, I did not know that same. And Laurie had

596
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: one more one more kid who's still alive, right, correct.

597
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 6: Colby is her oldest and he is still alive.

598
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: And how old is he.

599
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 6: He's in his twenties and he's married, has one little girl,

600
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 6: and is expecting a second child.

601
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: Has he said anything about this case publicly?

602
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and doctor john Is sat with him for hours.

603
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know if you want to share that,

604
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 4: but yeah, he has talked publicly about it.

605
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, I've met with Colby. He's he's quite angry, you know,

606
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 7: he was. He was very very angry early on, which

607
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 7: is completely understandable. You know, his siblings were basically murdered

608
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 7: for no good reason, not that there would ever be

609
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 7: a good reason to murder a child, but.

610
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 3: A lot of anger.

611
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 7: I think he's been on his own journey to kind

612
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 7: of deal with that and come to terms with it,

613
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 7: and I think he's probably starting to see his mother

614
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 7: more along the lines that Lauren just mentioned as someone

615
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 7: who was not a good parent and created a lot

616
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 7: of problems for the children when they were growing.

617
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 4: Up, although he wouldn't have said that originally. If that

618
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 4: makes sense, that might be a part of his journey.

619
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 4: Is his original first statements, where my mother was a

620
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 4: great mom, we went to Disneyland.

621
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 6: Something's wrong.

622
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 4: So John speculates that that narrative in his brain might

623
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 4: be changing a bit.

624
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: Right, right, Okay, So tell us about the way that

625
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: they met. How did it happen? Laurie and Chad.

626
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 4: They met at what was called a Preparing a People conference,

627
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 4: And I think that that's important to talk about. Preparing

628
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 4: a People is not an LDS church sponsored group, but

629
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 4: it is a bunch of people who are LDS with

630
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 4: this like minded focus on prepping for the Second Coming.

631
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 4: You can call them preppers. A lot of them claim

632
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 4: visions and near death experiences, chatted, and a lot of

633
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 4: these people write books about their near death experiences and

634
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 4: their visions and all of the calamities that are going

635
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 4: to happen in the Second Coming. So Preparing to People

636
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 4: is sort of I feel like the vehicle or the

637
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 4: beginning of this offshoot LDS group. And they met at

638
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 4: a Preparing to People conference in Saint George, Utah, where

639
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 4: Chad was a speaker and Laurie attended.

640
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: So Laurie's like, oh, this author I love is speaking

641
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: at this conference, basically, let me go fangirl out.

642
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 4: Yes, and she definitely did. And we have the speech

643
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 4: she gave at the conference. Someone sent it to us.

644
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 4: They had recorded it on their phone, and he talks

645
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 4: about what's going to happen and all these disasters. And

646
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 4: then we hear later from Chad from police documents that

647
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 4: have come out out that Laurie came right to his

648
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 4: table after and helped him sell a bunch of his books,

649
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 4: and he knew right then and there that he had

650
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 4: been married to her in.

651
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 6: A past life.

652
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 4: Which is also an important part of this is this

653
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 4: group believed in reincarnation or essentially they called it multiple probations,

654
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 4: but it's living again and again as different people. And

655
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 4: so Chad would use that a lot. That would be

656
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 4: like a pickup line we learned to use with a

657
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 4: lot of women, Oh we were married in a past life.

658
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 4: They were married once, and and that gets really confusing

659
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,239
Speaker 4: with the whole eternal family thing too an lds.

660
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 6: Too right.

661
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 4: So there was there was Chad deciding the moment he

662
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 4: met her, Hey girl, we were married in a past life.

663
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 6: None of that. Laurie was like, really right, no.

664
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 7: None of their none of their past and none of

665
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 7: their past lives, by the way, where they ever homeless.

666
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 7: They were always kings and queens and royalty of course.

667
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, Chad with Jesus's brother, and you know, she was

668
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 4: a wife who had sex with him a lot back

669
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 4: in Jesus's time that year.

670
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think she went there to

671
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: do this.

672
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: I think she was like a groupie going to a

673
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: rock show, and she knew exactly what she was doing, right, Yeah.

674
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 3: For sure. It's interesting, Yeah, exactly. I agree.

675
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 7: She was totally fangirling, and she had read his books since.

676
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 7: So they met roughly in October of twenty eighteen, and

677
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 7: she had been reading his books since roughly we speculate

678
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 7: twenty fifteen. So that's years and years of reading his

679
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 7: books and getting to kind of create this fantasy of him.

680
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 7: So I think it's interesting to think that they both

681
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 7: created They both kind of met over this illusion of love, right, Like,

682
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 7: she had her fantasies of the perfect man who was

683
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 7: a prophet and wrote these was going to move us

684
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 7: into the apocalypse successfully, And he had this fantasy of

685
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 7: kind of the stereotypical Mormon woman. So they both kind

686
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 7: of met, they both kind of created this illusion of love,

687
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 7: and then they met over that and fell in love

688
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 7: over that, which is to me the same way as

689
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 7: saying that they didn't really fall in love at all

690
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 7: because they didn't really know each other.

691
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 2: Wow, this just like Magan Fox and Machine Gun Kelly.

692
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 3: Exactly, Zinging.

693
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: It's so fascinating to me that there's a group of

694
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: Mormon people, but they're talking about things that are not

695
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: anywhere in Mormon doctrine, like past lives is not a

696
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: part of the LDS faith, at least not when I

697
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: was growing up. No, there was like you'd be in

698
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: the pre existence and then you'd have your life and

699
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: then you'd go into whatever kingdom of heaven you go to.

700
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 4: Like that's it correct, And these people are creating this

701
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 4: sort of alternative fantasy using Mormon doctrine or maybe an

702
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 4: obscure talk.

703
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 3: You know.

704
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 4: Since covering this case, the one has pointed out, no,

705
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 4: once upon a time, Joseph Smith did mention multiple probations.

706
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 4: I'm like, okay, okay, you know, but as you pointed out,

707
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 4: that's not doctrine. In the mainstream church today, church has

708
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 4: changed the church, you know what I mean, And so

709
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 4: they're almost manipulating church history to kind of get what

710
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 4: they this kind of offshoot fringe group.

711
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it's important for most cults to create

712
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 7: their own identity right in their own language and their

713
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 7: own culture.

714
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 3: And Chad was.

715
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 7: Doing that through like you know, zombies and portals, and

716
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 7: so they kind of had their own language and way

717
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 7: of talking about things and seeing things. Because if you're

718
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 7: part of the mainstream, if they're just another Mormon group,

719
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 7: then that doesn't really have any significance and it's harder

720
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 7: to attract followers into that umbrella.

721
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 3: You know.

722
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 7: The old Church does a fine job of doing that

723
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 7: by themselves. They don't need Chad Dabel to help him

724
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 7: with that. But if he wants to, if he wants

725
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 7: to run his own cult, then he has to offer

726
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 7: something unique.

727
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 4: Well, they have to be special, right, you have to

728
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,240
Speaker 4: be better or special or know things that the rest

729
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 4: of the members don't know. You know, this sacred doctrine

730
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 4: of multiple probations that nobody else knows. But we know

731
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 4: that wonderful, we are that special. We are that you know, wonderful,

732
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 4: that we have been chosen to know this knowledge? Right?

733
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: Can you clarify? So there's Preparing a People, which is

734
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: this group of like Mormon people with their own unique beliefs,

735
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: and then there's Chad Dabell who's a part of it,

736
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: but he's not the leader of that right, correct.

737
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 6: He's not the leader.

738
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 4: He found a platform through that group, and the founders

739
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 4: of Preparing to People, Mike and Nancy James, definitely embraced

740
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 4: him and gave him a platform to spread his books

741
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 4: in his odd beliefs, but he did not. They They

742
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 4: they're definitely trying to distance themselves from Chad.

743
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: Now makes sense?

744
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, what happened?

745
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 4: I think that Chad was starting to get more and

746
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 4: more attention. There was Preparing a People, and then there's

747
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 4: also an organization called a Vow. A VOW is another

748
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 4: Voice of Warning that's a prepper group from East Idaho

749
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 4: area or a website run by a man named Christopher

750
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 4: Parrott who is also very close with Chad. Between a

751
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 4: Vow and Preparing to People, I think for the first

752
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 4: time in Chad's life, he was starting to get attention

753
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 4: and feel special. That had never happened to Chad before.

754
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 4: In fact, if you listen to him speak here, we

755
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 4: have this speech on our YouTube channel of the day

756
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 4: he met Lori Baalo and he's talking about the apocalypse

757
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 4: and all these crazy things, and we thought, John and

758
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 4: I thought, oh man, people are going to love to

759
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 4: hear this. People are going to want to know exactly

760
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 4: everything he said. Well, our listeners can't even get through

761
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 4: it because.

762
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 6: He's so boring, he's so dull, So he's putting me

763
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 6: to sleep.

764
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 4: So this is a man that's never you know, he

765
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 4: has not had attention for a reason. He's finally, for

766
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 4: the first time in his life, through this organization called

767
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 4: Preparing to People and this website called a Vow, feeling

768
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 4: really special and I think it really emboldened him to

769
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 4: keep going with his beliefs. And then enter Lori Valo

770
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 4: and he just felt, you know, that it was his

771
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 4: time right.

772
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 7: I think he's using those platforms to gain an audience,

773
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 7: but the real basis of his cult, if he has one,

774
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 7: revolves around his books. So in fact, one of his

775
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 7: followers would say later that she considered the books to

776
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 7: be scripture, and I think that Laurie saw the books

777
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 7: in the same vein so you know, I sometimes called

778
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 7: Chad the accidental cult leader because I don't think. I

779
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 7: don't think his initial intention was to create a cult

780
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 7: and have a bunch of followers and to do what

781
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,919
Speaker 7: he did. I think it evolved into that over time,

782
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 7: when he saw that people were gravitating towards his ideas

783
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 7: in his books, and when he saw that he could

784
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 7: attract people like Laurie. So I think in some ways,

785
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 7: it wasn't something he set out to do, right, it was.

786
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 7: It was something that sort of happened accidentally, which is strange,

787
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 7: but he embraced it once he was in that position.

788
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 4: I bet he has many qualities and we'll talk about

789
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 4: this later, but he has many qualities of a cult leader.

790
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 4: But he's right, it's like an accidental cult leader. So

791
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 4: although he has all these things that are very similar

792
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 4: in many cult leaders, right, it wasn't this purposeful waking

793
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 4: up one day and saying, I think it's time that

794
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 4: I form.

795
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: A Yeah, it feels like he has everything besides charisma, right.

796
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, Thank goodness, Thank goodness, he didn't have that.

797
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 4: Thank goodness, Chad Dabell wasn't sexier and didn't have charisma

798
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 4: or else for we're killing.

799
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

800
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 7: Well, and you know another irony is that people say

801
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 7: that he's soft spoken and humble and quiet, and that

802
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 7: wouldn't be.

803
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 3: Consistent with a cult leader, right.

804
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 7: You tend to think of cult leaders as being kind

805
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 7: of extroverted and as you said, charismatic. And but I

806
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 7: try to explain to people that, no, it's not like

807
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 7: your presentation to people isn't really what's defining it. You

808
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 7: know that there's a lot of journalists who did interviews

809
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 7: with hit Or prior to his ascendants, and one of

810
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 7: the things they observed about Hitler was he was very reserved.

811
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 7: He was very me he was very unassuming and reserved, right,

812
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 7: And so he wasn't that way in a public platform,

813
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 7: but he was in private. And so you can't make

814
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 7: assumptions that just because someone is laid back and quiet,

815
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 7: that they're not potentially devious or a threat to other people.

816
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think of Warren Jeff's the leader of

817
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: the FLDS church, so fucking boring. Like when you listen

818
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: to that guy talk, it is like immediately Snoozeville exactly.

819
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: That happens more often than you'd expect. You're expecting this,

820
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: like loud, charismatic, engaging personality, and like a lot of

821
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: them just aren't.

822
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 6: Like that, right, exactly right.

823
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: I also think the having written fiction, I mean we

824
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: have to point out that l Ron Hubbard parallel as well,

825
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: and even my own, you know, Prophet in quotes had

826
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: written a like, had had had some writing that he

827
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: had done creams to write a book.

828
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 2: Why are these people writing so many books but their secret?

829
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's it's like, maybe, don't trust someone

830
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: who wrote fiction as their main thing and then is

831
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: starting to now say that just so you know, now

832
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: my ideas are real, They're not fiction anymore. This is

833
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: actually real stuff, like maybe you read flag there.

834
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 4: It is kind of true that I'm always weary now

835
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 4: of the resumes of people when they start to get

836
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 4: a platform, and it's because they wrote books.

837
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 6: I'm like, what are these books?

838
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 1: Don't trust authors, that's what we're saying. That's not what

839
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: we're saying, you guys.

840
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 7: I think I think most excellent fiction writers stick with

841
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:50,720
Speaker 7: the fiction idea.

842
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: They don't write.

843
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 3: To change it.

844
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 7: It's not like you give Tony Morrison the Nobel Laureate

845
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 7: and fiction and she comes out years later and says, oh,

846
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 7: guess what this was real?

847
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,280
Speaker 6: Right the day we hear Stephen King come out and say.

848
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 4: Oh, by the way, you know, look out for Stephen King.

849
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: But honestly, I would, you know, maybe I would join

850
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: his cult though I know it's so likable.

851
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 6: Don't say that. Don't tell us it's real.

852
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

853
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Laurie goes to this thing, her husband ends

854
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: up dead, and then she we can obviously discuss that mare.

855
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: But then she moves next door to Chad. Is this correct?

856
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 6: Is correct?

857
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 4: Yeah too, So let's go back to the preparing the

858
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 4: people conference. They meet, they've decided they've been married in

859
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 4: a past life, and it is.

860
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 6: It only takes two.

861
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 4: Days for Chad after that conference for Chad to write

862
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 4: an email to Laurie saying, here's the family history that

863
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 4: you requested, and he sends her entire family tree, all

864
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 4: of her family, all of her siblings, all of her children,

865
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 4: and and rates them either light or dark, light or dark,

866
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 4: meaning what evil or good? His term is light or dark,

867
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 4: so that's what I'll use, but it means evil or

868
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 4: not evil. And he rates Laurie's daughter, Tylie, who's sixteen, as.

869
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 6: Dark as evil.

870
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 4: And that's two days after they met at the conference,

871
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 4: and you know, most people would hear that and think, Okay,

872
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 4: you're not the guy I'm looking for. If you don't,

873
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 4: you know, think my child is you know, light and nice.

874
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 6: But she was just like, okay, sure, so.

875
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,439
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, It's typically it would take like a long

876
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: period of time to indoctrinate someone like that. So it

877
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: speaks to Laurie's specific character that within two days she's

878
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: on board with this kind of crazy stuff exactly.

879
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 4: The two days thing is fascinating. And then they go

880
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 4: home and soon chat and at that point too just

881
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 4: you know, Charles was rated light still that that's Lurie's husband,

882
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 4: Charles Ballow, but that soon changed, and and Chad decided

883
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 4: to tell Lourie, who's in Arizona. They're also states apart.

884
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 4: Chad's in Idaho, Lourie's in Arizona, so they're not living

885
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 4: close to each other. But Chad tells Laurie that her

886
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 4: that Charles is now a zombie, so he's not really Charles,

887
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 4: he's a zombie and he's now Ned Schneider who's gone

888
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 4: into Charles's body.

889
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 6: And I think that's where the zombie thing comes from too, is.

890
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 4: Because he did rate Charles light originally, but wait, we

891
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 4: hold up, we need him to not be light anymore.

892
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 4: So what better way for them to then be a

893
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 4: zombie and be Ned Schneider and not really Charles. And

894
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 4: then Laurie took this and totally believed it.

895
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: Wait, Ned Schneider is who Charles Vallo?

896
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 4: So we don't know, we don't you know, there's a

897
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 4: lot of speculation as to who the real Ned Schneider is.

898
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 4: When you know, can the real Ned Schneider please stand up?

899
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 4: No idea, but that's the name. He said that Charles

900
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 4: Vala was now that he was no longer Charles but

901
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 4: a zombie inhabited by an evil spirit named Ned.

902
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 7: They that he took his names from the Simpsons, but you'll.

903
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 3: Have to you'll have to weigh.

904
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:21,399
Speaker 6: I really do.

905
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 4: And then he really did say in a blog that

906
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 4: he liked the Simpsons and I really researched all these

907
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 4: names and I think.

908
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 6: There's something to it. But another time for another podcast.

909
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:36,359
Speaker 1: Wow wow, So okay, so he says Ned Schneider has

910
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: now inhabited the body of Charles Lourie's husband. Okay, what

911
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 1: when did the talk of killing first begin? And also

912
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: was the zombie mythology in his novels.

913
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 4: Yes, did he ever use the term zombies in his

914
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 4: novel or was it evil spirits and possession?

915
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 7: Yeah, he used different terms. I think he changed the

916
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 7: term to zombies later. But he did talk about evil

917
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 7: and dark spirits a lot in his books. But as

918
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 7: far as I know, he never used the term zombie.

919
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 7: And he did mention portals. That's another part of his

920
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 7: as you say, is mythology.

921
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 6: Portals and zombies back.

922
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I've interviewed who I would consider a cult

923
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 4: member of Chad's. My interview, he wouldn't call himself that,

924
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 4: he would call himself a friend of Chad's, and that

925
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 4: Chad has some wonderful, you know, special gifts of seeing

926
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 4: beyond the veil. But I will consider this gentleman a

927
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 4: cult member. And he said, well, Chad took it too

928
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 4: far and he started to believe in zombies, and I

929
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 4: don't believe in zombies. And I pressed him and I said, well,

930
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 4: do you believe that an evil spirit can enter a

931
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 4: good person? And he said, yeah, yeah, that's possession. Yeah,

932
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 4: everyone believes that. So so it was a term change,

933
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 4: but he definitely talked about possession or evil spirits and

934
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 4: tring good spirits bodies in his books.

935
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 2: It's interesting because somebody possessed would be much harder, you know,

936
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 2: mentally to kill than somebody who's a zombie.

937
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: Because somebody's possessed, can you're like, maybe you can exercise.

938
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: So somebody's a zombie, it's done whatever, get rid of them.

939
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: It's a zombie.

940
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 4: So that's interesting you brought that up, because that's what

941
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 4: happened at first with Charles is there were all of

942
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 4: these LDS women who all believed that they were energy

943
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 4: healers and that once they heard Charles Valow was an

944
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 4: evil spirit or a zombie, they all try to do

945
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 4: that exorcism thing.

946
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 3: They called it a cast.

947
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 6: Off, but it didn't well.

948
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 4: But yeah, according to Chad, it didn't work, and then

949
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 4: there was only one option left.

950
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 6: And so that is where the murders began.

951
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, and they actually saw the murders like at least

952
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 7: with Charles, they saw it as an act of kindness

953
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 7: because they believed that the only way to help this

954
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 7: person was to kill them to get the zombie out.

955
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 4: So, oh my gosh, and she enough to tell Charles,

956
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 4: she said, I know you're not Charles, and he was

957
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:04,720
Speaker 4: going around asking for help for his wife, like something's

958
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 4: wrong with her.

959
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 6: She's saying, I'm not Charles. So she was so convinced.

960
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 4: She was telling Charles herself, I know you're not Charles.

961
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 4: Your ned and I'm not going to be tricked by you.

962
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: So she literally thinks she's like talking to the evil spirit, yes,

963
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: in her husband's body.

964
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 6: Wow.

965
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 1: So he tried to file for divorce initially in twenty nineteen. Right,

966
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: and what did he in the filings? He basically said,

967
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: like she's got these extreme beliefs, right, Yes.

968
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 7: And not only that, he said that if he dies,

969
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 7: point the finger at her because she's the one who

970
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 7: killed me.

971
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: Wow.

972
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 4: Cut to July him being killed. Yeah, July eleventh. July eleventh,

973
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen. There's another character to be brought into this cult,

974
00:49:54,719 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 4: Alex Cox. Alex Cox, that is Laurie's brother. Alex is

975
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:05,439
Speaker 4: now deceased. Autopsy says natural causes. How convenient. But before then,

976
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 4: Alex Cox considered himself Laurie's protector, and Chad gave Alex

977
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 4: a patriarchal blessing, meaning a blessing telling him who he

978
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 4: is and who he is meant to be and dubbed

979
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 4: him Laurie's protector, and he is the one who went

980
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 4: over to Laurie's house and when Charles came up to

981
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:34,240
Speaker 4: pick up their son JJ for school, Charles was shot

982
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 4: dead by Alex Cox, and both Laurie and Alex claimed

983
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 4: it was self defense, although Charles doesn't have a history

984
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 4: of violence in their relationship at all.

985
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 6: Wow.

986
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: Do we know how Alex got involved?

987
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 6: I'd say Chad.

988
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 4: So there was a history of reading these near death

989
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:58,280
Speaker 4: experienced books in the Cox household for sure, not just Chad,

990
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 4: but Julie row is another big one. They are Julie

991
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 4: ros Now been excommunicated from the LS Church. Then there

992
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 4: was Denver Snuffer, and then there was John Pontius. These

993
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 4: are all Mormons or ex Mormons who started writing about

994
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 4: their near death experiences.

995
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 1: Wow.

996
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 6: Mike Stroud was.

997
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 4: Another one, and Alex was a big fan of Mike Stroud.

998
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 4: We have his nephew saying that Alex had I'll pay

999
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 4: you a hundred bucks if you just read this Mike stroudbook.

1000
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 4: So Alex was definitely getting into the near death experience.

1001
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 6: Genre. I guess you could call it.

1002
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 4: But Chad definitely made him feel special and told him

1003
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 4: that he was a big part of the second Coming.

1004
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 3: Wow.

1005
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 7: Okay, there's a lot of indications that Alex and Laurie

1006
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 7: may have had some type of inappropriate sexual relationship. Wow,

1007
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 7: going back to adolescence possibly. I mean, this is speculation.

1008
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 7: Let me make that clear. There's no definite evidence here.

1009
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 7: But Alex's ex wife essentially said that when they were together,

1010
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 7: when Alex and Laurie were together, in front of her,

1011
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 7: they would like he would like grab her and like

1012
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 7: straddle her and like go through these kind of specual

1013
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 7: motions in front of her.

1014
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 3: I mean, who does that, right? Like weird?

1015
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, So it certainly seems like there's peculiarities in their

1016
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 7: relationship going back to their childhoods.

1017
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 3: Right, So if that's true, I.

1018
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 7: Think there's definitely a lot of loyalty there that Alex,

1019
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 7: in many ways, I think felt like Laurie was his

1020
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 7: primary relationship.

1021
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 1: M right, Because I was going to say, like, if

1022
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: I started believing in some weird shit, I don't I

1023
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: have three brothers. I don't think any of them would

1024
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: be like I'm on board, right.

1025
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 3: Right, Well, that's great.

1026
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 7: So I think Alex, you know, Alex was a little

1027
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 7: bit beholden to Laurie when she asked him for certain favors.

1028
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 7: Probably she probably he probably felt like she was a

1029
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 7: primary relationship. And so I think when Chad enters the

1030
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 7: picture and they developed this master plan whenever that was,

1031
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 7: they probably saw Alex as an easy target for, you know,

1032
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 7: someone who would take the fall and maybe carry out

1033
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 7: their plan. You know, maybe he was the person that

1034
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 7: they could distance themselves from and he could do a

1035
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,280
Speaker 7: lot of bad things to a lot of people.

1036
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 1: Okay, and we're gonna leave it there for now. Come

1037
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:20,919
Speaker 1: back next week. There's so much more to talk about,

1038
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 1: including a tangent that I go on because I like

1039
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 1: to do that before next week. Mecan, what do you think?

1040
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 1: So would you be interested in a Chad Dabell type

1041
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: of man. Well, here's the deal.

1042
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,439
Speaker 2: There is a part of me, a very fearful part

1043
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 2: of me, where the prepper movement. I can see myself

1044
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 2: getting into it a little bit, just like, let's put

1045
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 2: all of our shit in a basement and save water

1046
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 2: and we're gonna live down here. I don't know, I

1047
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 2: can see myself feeling safe.

1048
00:53:58,000 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 6: I don't know.

1049
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: I know somebody doing that, and I'm glad I know them.

1050
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: I get that. I get that one piece of it.

1051
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 1: How extreme is the person that you know?

1052
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 2: I would say, on a scale of zero to Chad Dabel,

1053
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 2: they're a sixty.

1054
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: Okay, that's very extreme. What who It's just it's one

1055
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: of my friend's brothers. Okay, okay, Yeah. I get the

1056
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: appeal of prepping. I do. It always feels like the

1057
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: world is about to end, only exacerbated by all the

1058
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:35,720
Speaker 1: climate news that we've been hearing lately. Also the zombie

1059
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: stuff bad. But like I could see how it would

1060
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: be sort of exciting and like sort of an exciting

1061
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 1: thing to believe, you know, because you I'm sure I've

1062
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 1: talked about this before, but I always want my life

1063
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: to be more exciting. I want there to be magic.

1064
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: I want there to be evil that I have to fight.

1065
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 1: I want there to be you know, like I don't

1066
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: believe in any of that shit, but I kind of

1067
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: missed that from my child wildhood, Like I missed this

1068
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,839
Speaker 1: sort of larger than life, like fantastical way of looking

1069
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: at things, having a mission to save people, you know,

1070
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: Like I get the appeal of that very strongly.

1071
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 2: Outside of that, not so much, I mean, the religion

1072
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: the the bugs. I know none of it, but you

1073
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 2: know I get it.

1074
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah. I mean, it's just fascinating how quickly

1075
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: it all seemed to happen. That is the part. It's like,

1076
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: I know we talked about that already, but like normally

1077
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 1: this is an ongoing process of indoctrination, and this was

1078
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: like zero to sixty real fast. Yeah, yep, probably not

1079
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 1: the religion for us, but you are going to become

1080
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: a prepper. I also in my head, I'm like, I'm

1081
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: going to get the dopest earthquake kit. I'm gonna like

1082
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 1: have everything I need and then I never ever do it.

1083
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 2: I have bought so much earthquake water and drink it

1084
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 2: immediately that it's humiliating.

1085
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't a matt Like if I have good

1086
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: food and water and there, what am I not going

1087
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: to use it? I just don't understand. But my whole childhood,

1088
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 1: and tell me if the two by twos are like

1089
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: this Mormons, which I guess makes sense because they were

1090
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: both Mormon, but my whole, like regular mainstream Mormon childhood,

1091
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: it was there was very much an emphasis on having

1092
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 1: food storage, having a basement full of stuff that you

1093
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: could eat if the Second Coming happened or whatever, if

1094
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 1: Y two K happened.

1095
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 2: Oh no, the two by twos are so excited for

1096
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 2: the Second Coming because you just.

1097
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: Go straight with Jesus.

1098
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Okay, they don't want to prep and stay

1099
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 2: on earth for a second longer than necessary.

1100
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: Oh see, I think we're thinking, like, there's some shit's

1101
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 1: gonna go down before we all get saved, so we

1102
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 1: better be prepared. Yeah. So I kind of was thinking

1103
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: about like long term, like prepping a little bit my

1104
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 1: entire childhood. But it wasn't ever extreme. It was just like,

1105
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,359
Speaker 1: oh yeah, all the Mormons in the church would have

1106
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 1: like their basements full of dry goods and condensed milk

1107
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 1: and whatever else. That is no longer the case, although

1108
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 1: there was a out of it at the beginning of

1109
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,919
Speaker 1: COVID when lockdown happened and everyone was like, there will

1110
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: be no food left, go get everything from the store,

1111
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 1: and there was nothing left to Trader Joe's. I do

1112
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 1: have some stuff left over from that, So, you know,

1113
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: Preppers in our Hearts, Preppers in our Hearts.

1114
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 2: We talk more about it next week, which I think

1115
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 2: is just as interesting. We hope that you guys have

1116
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 2: a fabulous week. Remember to follow your.

1117
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 1: Gut, watch out for red flags, and never ever trust me.

1118
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 4: Bye.