1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: And we're returning. We sure hope you like the episodes 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: investigating religious related subjects and conspiracies in the world of spirituality, 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: because guess what, there's another one. 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 2: And do you like death all of it? 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: Like metals, You're like, wait, what are those? 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 3: Oh? 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: Hee lung is A is a band that I really like. 8 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 4: Their kind of paganis Oh my gosh, I remember you 9 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 4: sent me one of those in right before recording an episode. 10 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 4: Maybe it was this episode. 11 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: No, no, it was because I think this one, this 12 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: one might be the one with just you two on it. 13 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: Oh maybe I think. 14 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 5: Oh, I don't know, call it's been a long time, 15 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 5: but I do remember I probably mentioned on this there's 16 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 5: a documentary called Before the Light Takes Us that addresses 17 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 5: a lot of the things we talk about in this 18 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 5: episode pertaining to Norway's black metal scene, a spate of 19 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 5: church burnings that captivated the media in the nineteen nineties. 20 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 5: I distinctly remember a Spin magazine feature in the nineties 21 00:00:58,240 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 5: when I was a kid, and I think I cut 22 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 5: some of these pictures out and pace them on my 23 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 5: wall of different Norwegian black metal singers, one of whom 24 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 5: I forget the name, kept a severed crow head and 25 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 5: a bag and he would sniff it at a time. 26 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 4: He would play. 27 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: Dad the former lead singer Mayhem possibly. 28 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, you're almost entirely right why there was a whole 29 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 5: feat because you wanted to smell that is fely mentally ill. 30 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: He wanted people to bury him before shows so he 31 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: could smell like the grave. 32 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 5: And there is also a dramatized account of the story 33 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 5: in the film Lords of Anarchy starring the Culcan that 34 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 5: nobody talks. 35 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 2: About that much. 36 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 4: Kieran, I love Kieren. 37 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 2: It's the younger one, Rory. I want r third. There's 38 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 2: a third Culkin. 39 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 4: Mcaulay will always the third heat. 40 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: You never see the third Culkin coming. 41 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 5: But anyway, movies apparently man, but I am interested in 42 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 5: checking it out. But yeah, this is obviously a pretty 43 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 5: interesting pet subject for all three of us, and it 44 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 5: wraps into the larger phenomenon of the Satanic panic. 45 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, the last thing, guys. Kieran Culkin was on 46 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 4: SmartLess recently and it was one of the best episodes 47 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 4: I've heard of. 48 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 5: He's one of the best interview He just is himself. 49 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 5: I absolutely love that guy. 50 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, did you know he didn't learn until after the 51 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: fact that the other people in succession were actors doing 52 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: a script. 53 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, he was just there. 54 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 3: He just apparently. 55 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:19,119 Speaker 4: Love that guy. 56 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 2: Hey, let's talk about some satanic black metal. 57 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 58 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 59 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 3: learn this stuff. They don't want you to know. A 60 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 3: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. 61 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. 62 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 4: My name is Nol, my name is Matt Had. 63 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: We had a stare off just as who is gonna start? 64 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 4: I really should have said, they call me Matt. Ben 65 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 4: is in a location far away, and yet we can 66 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,279 Speaker 4: still feel his ever present. 67 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: Influence because it's ever present. That's his very nature. That's correct, 68 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: omni present. He sort of hangs above us like some 69 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: sort of cosmic cloud. 70 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 4: Again, his presence is known. We are here with special 71 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 4: guest producer Seth He's out there, Seth Ory, He's doing 72 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 4: his thing. Wait, I'm looking at him and I'm seeing 73 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 4: hands moving. I can't tell what it is, but it 74 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 4: looks intricate and awesome. Wow. 75 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: Can we give him a nickname? Seth Death, Seth Metal, 76 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: Seth Metal. Yeah, you got it. 77 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 4: That's better Seth Metal Seth Super Producer Johnson. Is that okay? 78 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 4: I're we allowed to divulge your last day on the show, 79 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 4: all right? Cool? He said, it's fine, Seth Metal Superproducer Johnson. 80 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 4: That is your new title and it will be forever more. Hey, 81 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 4: we're gonna do a quick check in you guys because 82 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 4: something extremely exciting is coming to us in the future, 83 00:03:55,280 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 4: probably not next year, probably twenty twenty one. Matrix the 84 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 4: Fourth is happening now. 85 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 2: It's called that the working title. Yeah, Matrix the Fourth 86 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: Is that like a Highlander kind of situation? 87 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 4: Yeah? There can only be four? 88 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, don't a lot of people discount 89 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 2: two and three? Can't we just wipe the slate and 90 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: make this two? 91 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 4: Oh? How I wish we could nol Yeah, are. 92 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: You one of those naysayers of two and three? 93 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 4: I'm not a naysayer so much as a close close 94 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 4: You're right, it's close your eyes and like pretend it 95 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 4: didn't happen, gotcha, And not necessarily because there are there 96 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 4: are highlights, I should say in all three films. 97 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: But I just remember the guy on all the TVs, 98 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 2: the kind of Wizard of Oz character. 99 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, what was his name the Key Mask, No, the 100 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 4: Key Masters, the Commissioner, the Commissioner, Yeah, yeah, no, the 101 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 4: Architect Architect. 102 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 2: That was I was close. It was an official title 103 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 2: of some sort. 104 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 4: But you guys is coming officially. We're gonna get more Neo, 105 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 4: more Trinity, more everything. 106 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 2: Directed by Alone Washowski. 107 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, just Lana, that's okay. You think that's gonna be 108 00:04:59,279 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 4: a right? Who knows? 109 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 2: Oh, I have a theory. 110 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 4: It's not. 111 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: It's very obvious theory. But you know, Keanu is like, 112 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 2: it's the key anaisance right now. He is on fire 113 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 2: blowing up the world with all these John Wick movies, 114 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 2: doing his own stunts, you know, just running around shooting stuff, 115 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: blowing things up all him and they're just like, you 116 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: know what, people need another matrix. 117 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 4: That's right. Well, you know those movies are such an 118 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 4: interesting comment on society, right, It's it's very much that 119 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 4: science fiction commentary of the future thing. Sure, So I'm 120 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 4: interested to see how it's manipulated or changed in some way. 121 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 2: I think I'm not as big of a matrix head 122 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: as you are, but I will say I think it's 123 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: a very important film because it did a really good 124 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 2: job of sort of pushing more heady science fiction like 125 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: Philip K. Dick kind of stuff into the forefront of 126 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: you know, culture, and so I will forever be grateful 127 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:56,679 Speaker 2: for that. I think if it wasn't for the Matrix, 128 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 2: we wouldn't have gotten things like Scanner Darkly and some 129 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: be weirder franchises that wouldn't have happened. I'm having a 130 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: hard time identifying any others. Can you think of any. 131 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 4: Four Bears to the Matrix? No, not necessarily. 132 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: All I know is that it four bears came before. 133 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, four bears I met. You can say a lot of. 134 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 2: Gosh, those are both the same word. What's the word 135 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 2: for the thing that comes after. 136 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 4: The cascade of science fiction? Hard science fiction? Right, that's 137 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 4: kind of what you're talking about. But the Matrix really 138 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 4: did popularize this kind of more heady science fiction. You're right, 139 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 4: and thank you for that, with Chowski's and Neo's and 140 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 4: trinities and morephesis. 141 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: What are we doing today, We're not talking We're not 142 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: doing a Matrix episode. 143 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 4: We're not talking about that today. We are officially exploring 144 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 4: music music because the music soundtrack, thinking about the soundtrack 145 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 4: of the Matrix. But anyway, okay, we'll get away from that, 146 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 4: how music can affect us both individually and collectively. And 147 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 4: you know, the three of us here today, both you 148 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 4: and Seth and I have a very personal connect to music, 149 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 4: and I thought we would start maybe by talking about that. 150 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 4: How is music affected you, Neil? 151 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I grew up playing violin, and I 152 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 2: sang in the church choir and all that stuff, and 153 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: it started kind of kind of like gave up violin 154 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: in favor of the electric guitar and started being in 155 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: rock bands, started doing early on kind of some metally 156 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: type stuff actually, and then got more into like Smashing 157 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: Pumpkins and indie rock, and then gradually graduated more towards 158 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: like pavement and that kind of that kind of stuff. 159 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: But I got definitely got my start in much heavier 160 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: music for sure. 161 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 4: Nice see For me, I grew up playing drums in 162 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 4: a praise band at a church, and that was all 163 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 4: music was for me for years and years and years. 164 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 4: And the connection that music had to religion was so 165 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 4: so close, The two were so intertwined that it was 166 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 4: difficult for me to even explore music outside of that 167 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 4: because I was kind of stuck in this one place 168 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 4: for so long at least mentally, but you know, as 169 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 4: your journey. I also found my way towards lots of 170 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 4: other genres and ended up really enjoying some of the 171 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 4: heavier things in life, including well, really classical heavy metal. 172 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 4: I really doubt it all Like Bach. When I say 173 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 4: classical heavy metal, I mean some of the classics from 174 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 4: the sixties, seventies, eighties. I was really enjoying learning about Sabbath. 175 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 4: Like some Sabbath, I very much did so. Again, today 176 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 4: we're talking about music. We're talking about how powerful and 177 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 4: highly connective music can be. 178 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the act of writing it, performing it. It 179 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 2: is a conduit between human beings people working together to 180 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: create music, and with that creation there is thought and 181 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: intention sometimes behind the actual material. The act of listening 182 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 2: to music connects people to those creators, and it's all 183 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: this kind of giant web of interconnectedness, of sharing and ideas. 184 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 2: It almost can become its own kind of I don't know, 185 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 2: religion might be a strong word, but it's definitely a 186 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 2: way of identifying with lots of different people that share 187 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 2: the same either values or the same kind of aesthetics 188 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 2: that you do. 189 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 4: No, you're absolutely right, listening to music connects us the 190 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 4: listener right to those those people who are creating it, 191 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 4: to the you know, the instrument choices they're making, the 192 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 4: words that they're saying. And in a lot of ways, 193 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 4: it can also connect us to ourselves because music can 194 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 4: help unlock or maybe enhance the way that we're really feeling, 195 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 4: the way, you know, what we're really thinking, stuff that 196 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 4: we're not allowing out into the world openly. A lot 197 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 4: of times music is that way to kind of have 198 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 4: us connect back to ourselves. And you know, a lot 199 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 4: of us get to choose the music that we hear. 200 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 4: Of course, that isn't true for all people in all situations, 201 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 4: but a lot of us get to decide which vibrations 202 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 4: and concepts stimulate our brains on a regular basis. Think 203 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 4: about it, our iHeart and Pandora stations or Spotify and 204 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 4: YouTube playlists, and these choices that we're making, they're all 205 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 4: influenced by a ton of factors, including our location in 206 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 4: the world, our background, you know, how we grew up, 207 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 4: the prevailing culture or wherever that is, and almost an 208 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 4: infinite number of other circumstances that lead to what we're 209 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 4: listening to at any given moment, especially regularly. 210 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it really can become its own kind of 211 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 2: microcosmic cultural experience. So many times over the year, specific 212 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 2: cultural movements within music have been associated with violence with 213 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: a particular eliciting a particular response, or at least sometimes 214 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 2: they're lumped in with that. Here are some examples across 215 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 2: the world, from la to Paris, to New York City 216 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 2: to Moscow, there have been several genres of hip hop 217 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 2: that have lyrically addressed the violent circumstances facing communities and individuals. 218 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 4: Then if you travel down to Mexico, Central America, you'll 219 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 4: encounter these things that are called narco corridos or drug ballads, 220 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 4: and in these there are explorations of people living on 221 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 4: the other side of the law, generally within the the 222 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 4: realm of the drug trade. Now today's episode, again those 223 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 4: are just two examples. There's been violence associated with music 224 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 4: across space and time. But in today's episode, we're heading 225 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 4: over to northern Europe and we're gonna check out a 226 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 4: place that's collectively known as Scandinavia, several different countries that 227 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 4: are beautiful, sometimes frigid just in temperature. But again, you know, 228 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 4: you can't let yourself be influenced by just what you 229 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 4: see on television in the way a place like Norway 230 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 4: is shown, because that is not everything within that country. 231 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 4: There are all kinds. There's so much diversity that occurs 232 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 4: over there, both natural and human made. 233 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, despite what you might see depicted in mass media, 234 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 2: kind of lazy depictions of this region as being one 235 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: particular thing. And today we're exploring some strange controversies, the 236 00:11:53,840 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 2: conspiracies surrounding the Scandinavian metal scene, the spates of church burning, 237 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 2: and allegations of Satanism. 238 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 4: That's right, Satanism. Every time we cover anything that touches 239 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 4: on this. I don't know there's an error about the 240 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 4: episode just coming into the studio. I was in here 241 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 4: earlier when Seth came in, and I was almost not startled, 242 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 4: but I was in my own world here researching this 243 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 4: stuff alone, and uh got spooked. You spook yourself, not 244 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 4: necessarily spooked, but it's it feels like I'm doing something wrong, 245 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 4: if that makes sense, just by even studying a word 246 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 4: like Satanism. 247 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 2: Well, I think a lot of that might have to 248 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 2: do with your background. 249 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 4: I think it's all connected. 250 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 2: Of very Christian upbringing, and this is sort of like 251 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: off limit stuff because at the end of the day, 252 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: I mean, there's different flavors of Satanism. Right, there's you know, 253 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: legitimate pagan kind of devil worship, and then there's Satanism 254 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 2: as more of a form of protest or like a 255 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 2: political movement. 256 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 4: Right. 257 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So let's just before we get into too much 258 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: of that, let's asked the quote, give the facts. Right, 259 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 2: here are the facts. What is metal? 260 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 4: Oh? Metal like the genre? 261 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: Oh boy, Now let's talk about the material. 262 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, so metal is pretty tough to define. There 263 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 4: are a lot of reasons for that. Music critics over 264 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 4: the years and historians. We try, we as in humans, 265 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 4: try very hard to categorize things like this and specifically music, 266 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 4: because we have industries like the radio industry, that in 267 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 4: the record industry that want to put things into categories 268 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 4: so that you can sell them and you can package 269 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 4: them and you can talk about them in a certain way. 270 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 4: Metal is one of those things that is it's so 271 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 4: spread out in what could be considered metal types of metal. 272 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 4: But there are a few people who have gone through 273 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 4: and said, Okay, this is how we are going to 274 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 4: define this genre. 275 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: It's pretty cool. The term have you metal? I don't 276 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 2: even know. This was first used in a way to 277 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 2: describe music in the sixties in the song Bond to 278 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 2: Be Work. 279 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 4: It's so weird to me that that was considered middle 280 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 4: by Steppenwolf. 281 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 2: The name of the band sounds more metal than the 282 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 2: actual song. Like, to me, that just sounds like old 283 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 2: school rock and roll kind of you know, But there's 284 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 2: a lyric specifically in that song that says. 285 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 4: Heavy metal thunder yeah, And that's according to you, Oh God, don't. 286 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: Actually oh right, we're big fans out No, we don't 287 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: have I think we're okay. 288 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 4: And also according to Chad Bauer, the gentleman who was 289 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 4: talking about Born to Be Wild, he notes that quote 290 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 4: most considered groups like Black Sabbath, led Zeppelin in Deep 291 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 4: Purple to be the first heavy metal bands. 292 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 2: I can totally get behind that, because, I mean, all 293 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 2: of those bands take the tradition of kind of blues 294 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 2: and like bar chords, but they kind of add a 295 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: little chug to it and have these riffs that sort 296 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 2: of have this like very shared aesthetic. Led Zeppelin, to me, 297 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: I would argue, is maybe less metal than Deep Purple 298 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 2: and Black Sabbath. Led Zeppelin's a little more like really 299 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 2: leaning on the blues side of it a little bit 300 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: heavier and almost making their own kind of subgenre. But 301 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: you know, these are the experts, so who are we 302 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: to judge? From there? The concept evolved and branched off 303 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 2: into an absurd number of subgenres and genres related to 304 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: the sound. While associated with or influenced by metal, you 305 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: couldn't really describe them in that specific way. Today. For 306 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: a fantastic look at the history of metal and its 307 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: various genres, we highly recommend checking out this site from 308 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 2: MI I T Yeah MIT in Boston and that was 309 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: metal dot MIT. 310 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 4: Dot e du. 311 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 2: It gives you a really cool kind of like what 312 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: do you say, like an interconnected kind of like chart 313 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: that tracks the evolution of metal. 314 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 4: Right, it's awesome, it's heavy metal, it's MIT heavy metal 315 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 4: one oh one, and it says shattering ear drums since 316 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 4: two thousand and six. And if you read through this, 317 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 4: it's fantastic. It gets into so many details. If you 318 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 4: really want to, you know, learn about that. There's got 319 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 4: to be a music show out there that you can 320 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 4: listen to that's gonna go over all this stuff, or 321 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 4: just go to this website cause it's a fantastic reed. 322 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 4: Today we're just you know, we're gonna drill down a 323 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 4: little bit further, just into one specific genre of metal. Again. 324 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 4: We talked about Scandinavian black metal, and that's really where 325 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 4: we're gonna remain for the rest of the episode. So 326 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 4: go learn about metal if you wish, come back, and 327 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 4: then we'll continue. We'll be right here. See, I told 328 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 4: you we were here the whole time. 329 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 2: We never really leave. 330 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 4: Hey, Seth, just checking in. How how are you feeling 331 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 4: about our discussion of metal thus far? Do you want 332 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 4: to bring up the trytone or the Devil's integer, the 333 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 4: Devil's chord change. I forget exactly what it's called. This 334 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 4: is like the flatted fifth. Oh man, you guys, familiar 335 00:16:58,440 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 4: flatted fifth. 336 00:16:59,040 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: Sounds pretty evil? 337 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 4: Well it again, it is. It does sound evil, and 338 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 4: it was it was coined the I think it was 339 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 4: the Devil's Oh. I can't remember exactly. I didn't actually 340 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 4: write this down. This is me pulling from old, old, 341 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 4: old knowledge that's deep in my head somewhere. It's a 342 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 4: musical interval, let's see, composed of three adjacent hole tones. 343 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 4: I don't really know what that means. I just know 344 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 4: that one of them is a flatted fifth of the three. 345 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 2: And this actually is this contained in metal music. 346 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, Black Sabbath in particular. If you go to that 347 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 4: MIT site we were talking about, it talks about them 348 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 4: using this to great effect because it's it almost feels 349 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 4: like a note that shouldn't be there. If you're writing 350 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 4: a traditional song with chord changes that are in the 351 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 4: same key or something, this flatted fifth is almost it's 352 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 4: eerie almost, or it throws you off a little. 353 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 2: Sort of like the blue note and blues or jazz. 354 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 2: It's the thing that makes it kind of sad. This 355 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: is the thing that makes it kind of evil. Metal 356 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 2: thrown up my horns when I say that. So yeah, 357 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 2: making no mistake though. What we're talking about is Scandinavia, 358 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 2: which is ground zero for heavy metal. In twenty thirteen, 359 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: the Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bilt tweeted quote Finland and 360 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 2: Sweden seem to be the global leaders in metal bands, 361 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 2: along with a map sourced from CIA dot gov a 362 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 2: metalarchives dot com showing just how many metal bands originate 363 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: in Sweden, Finland and Norway. This is very important to 364 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 2: remember for later and people have actually studied Swedish and 365 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 2: Finnish in an attempt to better understand some of their 366 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 2: favorite metal bands. 367 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, very much so. And you guys, we need 368 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 4: to take a quick break. Then we'll get right back 369 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 4: in and keep this rabbit hole going. And we're back 370 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 4: talking the Scandinavian black metal. Now, according to the metal 371 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 4: blog Invisible Oranges sounds interesting, right, it's by Cosmo Lee. 372 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 4: The popularity of metal in any given region can be 373 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 4: arguably reducible to a few factors. Now, there's a researcher 374 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 4: that was consulted here named Donald McGuire, and he wrote 375 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 4: a paper called Determinants of the Production of Heavy Metal Music. Now, 376 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 4: this guy, he went deep. He explored fifty five different 377 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 4: factors and found that the number of heavy metal that 378 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 4: is produced in any given area depends on seven things. 379 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 4: Are you ready for these? And seth, I'm gonna be 380 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 4: looking to you to see if you agree with any 381 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 4: of these, because it's it doesn't seem real to me, 382 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 4: But there's some sand to this. Number one, the percentage 383 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 4: of the population that is Catholic. 384 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 2: The percentage of the population with zero religion. 385 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 4: Okay, so those are two interesting, possibly opposing things. Number three, 386 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 4: the latitude of the country. 387 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 2: Whether the country has a Scandinavian legal history. 388 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 4: Number four, the number of years that that country was 389 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 4: under Marxist. 390 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 2: Rule, and the number of the population that are males 391 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: between the ages of fifteen and twenty four. 392 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 4: And finally the number of concert halls per one million persons. 393 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 2: So this isn't a perfect system by any stretch of imagination, 394 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 2: but attracts with what we know about Scandinavian history, demographics, 395 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: and culture. And you can read the full analysis over 396 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 2: there at Invisible Oranges as well as the paper published 397 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: in Metal Music Studies. 398 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 4: Really interesting, right, So if we break some of this 399 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 4: stuff down, if you have a percentage of a population 400 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 4: that identifies at least as Catholic, then another significant portion 401 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 4: of a population that identifies as having no religion, you 402 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 4: can see how there could be some people at odds 403 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 4: there when you throw in the latitude of the country 404 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 4: at least. This is what I'm inferring, is that you're 405 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 4: bringing in how warm generally and how humid the climate 406 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 4: is in any given country. And also you know, depending 407 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 4: on the elevation and in the area where people are located. 408 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 4: I wonder if elevation, I wonder if you should have 409 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 4: put elevation in there somewhere. That would have been fascinating. 410 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 4: But you know, then the other ideas of just literally 411 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 4: saying does it have a Scandinavian legal history fascinating, And 412 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 4: then the whole Marxist rule thing, I don't know. I 413 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 4: want to learn more about that, so I'm going to 414 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 4: go back and read some more about that later. But 415 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 4: for now, let's just keep going on here because we've 416 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 4: pretty much established what metal is a little bit at least, 417 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 4: and we also know that metal itself, several versions of it, 418 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 4: is supremely popular within the Scandinavian countries that we mentioned above, 419 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 4: you know, Sweden, Finland, Norway. 420 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: Yet in the States, the US and abroad, it's always 421 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 2: kind of had a bit of a controversial image, right. 422 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 2: So during the Great the Satanic Panic in the US, 423 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 2: heavy metal music, along with dungeons and dragons, were both 424 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,479 Speaker 2: sided its contributing factors and everything from violent assaults like 425 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 2: the murder the child murders at robin Hood Hill. Yeah, 426 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: those guys were all metal fans, and they were sort 427 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 2: of railroaded because of that that fact alone, and you know, 428 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 2: was implied that because they listened to heavy metal music, 429 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 2: they were participating in some sort of satanic rituals, which 430 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 2: brings us to another factor, the rise of devil worshiping, 431 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: or the perceived rise of devil worshiping during that period, 432 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 2: and property damage and more. 433 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 4: And it's crazy there because things range from annoyances like 434 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 4: property damage and riff raff coming around here listening to 435 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 4: their heavy metal music and messing up my garbage cans 436 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 4: to literally murder. That's that's at least the perceived stuff 437 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 4: going on here from portions of the US population. And 438 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 4: just to add to all that stuff, anything culturally that 439 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 4: becomes a little bit popular that is contrary to some 440 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 4: of the what I guess what the powers that be 441 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 4: would wish the established culture would be. I don't know 442 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 4: if that even tracks is making sense to anyone listening 443 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 4: out there. But anytime something is a little outside of 444 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 4: the regular thing, especially when it comes to religions in 445 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 4: or the popular religions in an established area, it can 446 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 4: be viewed I think that it's seen as anti establishment, 447 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 4: and a lot of times these movements are meant specifically 448 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 4: to be anti establishment or anti norm I guess. Now 449 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 4: in Scandinavia, particularly in Norway, there is a genre that 450 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 4: we've kind of mentioned here called black metal, and this 451 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 4: in particular was cited as the cause of an intense 452 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 4: anti Christian terrorist campaign. That's right, an anti Christian terrorism campaign, 453 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 4: and black metal was cited as being a part of 454 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 4: a conspiracy to protest the country's dominant religion through the 455 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 4: act of literally burning down the most sacred sites of 456 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 4: people's faith in Norway churches. Now here's a big question 457 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 4: was this true. Was black metal truly to blame for 458 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 4: this conspiracy to burn down churches across Norway. We're gonna 459 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 4: explore that, and we're gonna talk about reasons that it 460 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 4: may have just been a little bit of propaganda at 461 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 4: the hands of media in the vicinity in Norway to 462 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 4: fight back against some anti establishment movements. But we're gonna 463 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 4: find out. So let's move forward. Here's where it gets 464 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 4: crazy right here, right here, all right, I'm ready for it. 465 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 4: I feel like I just set up all that stuff 466 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 4: as in, like we're gonna find out, we're gonna do this, 467 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 4: We're gonna we're gonna check into it. Well, guess what, 468 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 4: we already researched it. We're in here recording it right now, 469 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 4: and it's absolutely true that black metal itself in some 470 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 4: way had to do with this conspiracy to burn down 471 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 4: churches in Norway. 472 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 2: Between nineteen ninety two and nineteen ninety six, no less 473 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 2: than fifty successful or attempted church burnings were attributed to 474 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 2: musicians and fans of the black metal scene in Norway. 475 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: So CNN describes black metal in this way, and this 476 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: is very very good description. Black metal is a subgenre 477 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 2: of heavy metal music that typically takes on anti Christian, satanic, 478 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 2: and paganistic themes. Black metal songs typically have a fast 479 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 2: tempo they called blast beats and featuring the feature shrieking. 480 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 2: I've always refer to them as kind of witchy vocals 481 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 2: like like that, yeah, yeah, and also heavily distorted guitars, 482 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 2: more so than just like your metal zone pedal, you know. Yeah, 483 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 2: any guitarists out there, a lot of the audience might 484 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 2: remember the boss metal zone. Yes, classic metal good distortion. 485 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 2: It's more of a wall of It's an absolute, distrustioning 486 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 2: wall of distortion, like like static almost like it's almost 487 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 2: bordering on atonal. But then there are shreddy rifts and 488 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 2: lead licks and everything like that, and unconventional song structures 489 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 2: so lots of weird time signatures, tempo changes, things like that, 490 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 2: and some of the big bands in that scene that 491 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: the term black metal actually comes from, the British group Venom. 492 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 2: It was one of the most influential black metal bands, 493 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 2: and there were other acts like Bathory, Mayhem, Barzoom, Immortal Emperor, 494 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 2: and my personal favorite Gorgoroth, whose lead singer plays a 495 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 2: big part in some of these stories. So it's important 496 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 2: to note that these acts of church burning or vandalism, 497 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: property damage, what have you, they could be actually considered 498 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: acts of domestic terrorism with one unified aim, and that 499 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: is to protest the very existence or you know, the 500 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: hegemony the kind of dominance of Christianity in Scandinavia, a 501 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: country that was founded on a pagan or Odinist kind 502 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 2: of set of beliefs and then sort of taken over 503 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 2: by Christian Christian beliefs, and these churches very much represent 504 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 2: that hegemony in that kind of you know, other force, 505 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 2: that kind of zen and maybe steers the history of 506 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 2: this part of the world away from their more you know, 507 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 2: kind of the Viking type roots. 508 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 4: It's interesting to see it as almost cultural vengeance against 509 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 4: that kind of thing or you know, taking back the 510 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 4: power of the history in some way. It certainly doesn't 511 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 4: excuse the acts in any way, but it is interesting 512 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 4: to see it in that light. So let's jump to 513 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 4: the the documentary Satan Rear Media. Satan Rides the Media, okay, 514 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 4: and in it, prominent members of Norway's black metal scene 515 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 4: are asked. 516 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 2: Satan rear media means in English, Satan rides the media. 517 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 2: I got it. 518 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 4: That's not like abtitle. Apologies, Yeah, I should have specified that. Yeah, yeah, 519 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 4: it's we would call it here and Nolan, I would 520 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 4: call it Satan rides of the media. So they take 521 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 4: the Norway's black metal scene and they ask a bunch 522 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 4: of people about these instances of church arson and inside 523 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 4: it there's a guitarist named Jorn Ing Tunsberg and he 524 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 4: was convicted for a church arson and he answers or 525 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 4: at least considers this question by saying, quote, the reason 526 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 4: behind burning asy church was that Norway is always so 527 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 4: moral Christian morals, rules and regulations are always religious. The 528 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,959 Speaker 4: more Christian, the more you hate it. You understand that 529 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 4: Norway should not be Christian, as in, you understand who 530 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 4: he's speaking to. You understand that Norway should not be 531 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 4: Christian and then he says, and that is the reason 532 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 4: for burning asan church. It's asan e church. The point 533 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 4: is very symbolic really, so it kind of gets to 534 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,719 Speaker 4: what we're talking about. It's a reaction to something that 535 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 4: they view as improper. 536 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 2: So this other fellow named Varg Vikerns, who was imprisoned 537 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 2: for charges including the murder of a fellow black metal 538 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 2: musician named Eronymus. Uronymous was in a band called Mayhem 539 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 2: and Vickers was in a band called Barzoom. He was 540 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 2: also imprisoned for the charges of burning down three churches 541 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 2: and the attempted arson of a fourth. So this is 542 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: how he responds to this notion of what Christianity means 543 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 2: to him as a native Norwegian quote, the church has 544 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 2: behaved so disgracefully, basely and cruelly in Norway. It's incredible 545 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 2: when they talk about Satanism. When someone burns a church, 546 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 2: they ought to look to themselves and remember all the 547 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: sacred places they have burnt, they being the Christians, and 548 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 2: ruins on top of which they have built their churches. 549 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 4: Wow. Again, that whole thing just feels like metal lyrics. 550 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 4: They have a point there, right, when you think about 551 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 4: the Crusades, you think about the things that the most 552 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 4: popular religions in the world have done as a large group. 553 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 4: Certainly isn't to vilify any of the individuals, right, but 554 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 4: as institutions over time, for hundreds and hundreds of years, 555 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 4: many of them have don and some fairly horrific things. 556 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 4: So if you look to other documentaries and interviews, you'll 557 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 4: hear black metal musicians offer similar things. As a gentleman 558 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 4: named call gaa Hl his realname is Christian ivand Espittal, 559 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 4: he's the guy that's in Gorgorath, That's the dude. That's 560 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 4: the dude, and in Metal a Headbanger's Journey. This dude 561 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 4: unapologetically expresses his supportive church burnings, and it's kind of 562 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 4: unsettling because he also expresses his desire to see more 563 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 4: church burnings. Let's just burn them all. And here's his quote. 564 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 2: He says, church burnings and all of these things are, 565 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 2: of course things that I support one percent, and it 566 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 2: should have been done much more and will be done 567 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 2: much more in the future. We have to remove every 568 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 2: trace from what Christianity and the Semitic roots have to 569 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: offer this world. Satanism is freedom for the individual to 570 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 2: grow and to become superman. Every man who is born 571 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 2: to be king, because king, every man who was born 572 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 2: to be a slave doesn't know Satan whoa You kind 573 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 2: of get a pretty serious sense that he is literally 574 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 2: anti Semitic because he's talking about how the Semitic roots 575 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 2: and you know, religion and culture are inherently a bad thing. 576 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 2: And he's kind of espousing some like almost nichean kind 577 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 2: of like the same things that Hitler would have talked 578 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 2: about as far as like, you know, becoming the superman, 579 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 2: and there is very much a kind of Aryan flair 580 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 2: to what he's saying. 581 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, and here in you know, we've had several 582 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 4: examples here at this point of people either supporting or 583 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 4: at least lending a tiny bit of support to these 584 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 4: church burnings that were occurring in Norway in Scandinavia, and 585 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 4: it's easy to maybe think, oh, well, then everybody in 586 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 4: the black metal scene has this view the black metal 587 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 4: as a genre, as a music and as a culture 588 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 4: means that it's anti all of this stuff in church burnings. 589 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 4: They would view church burnings as a good thing. But 590 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 4: you have to remember that doesn't mean just because we 591 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 4: have three or four doesn't mean that the whole thing 592 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 4: is monolithic. It doesn't mean that all the musicians and 593 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 4: fans support this practice, but it is, you know, something 594 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 4: in the wheelhouse of what we were wanting to explore 595 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 4: when we set out to do this episode, which is, 596 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 4: can music itself or the culture surrounding and music influence 597 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 4: us and influence our actions? And when I say us, 598 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 4: I mean everybody. Anybody could it. And at least it 599 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 4: appears in this way that the shared outlook or in 600 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 4: motivation for a lot of this type of music does 601 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 4: seem to be steering at least quite a few of 602 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 4: the people involved in it in a certain direction. But again, 603 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 4: if you tried to say all of black metal is 604 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 4: doing this at all times, it would be like saying 605 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 4: all fans of hit pop or whatever. Anyone who's ever 606 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 4: attempted to freestyle of Verse are one hundred percent on 607 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 4: board with drive by shootings, which is like one of 608 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 4: the stupid stupidest things you could say. And I feel 609 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 4: dumber for even mentioning. It. 610 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 2: Don't feel that way, Matt, but it needed to be said. 611 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 4: It's an equivalency. 612 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, And furthermore, it seems that the supporters of church 613 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 2: bringings are themselves not a unite in front in the 614 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 2: first place. Some folks like Var Vickerns seem to argue 615 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 2: in favor of what they see as a culture war. 616 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 2: In his blog post, Vicarans argues that the conflict between 617 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 2: pre Christian Norway and modern Christianity is similar to the 618 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,479 Speaker 2: fear and conflict between some modern Europeans and Islamic culture. 619 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 2: Should also be noted that the core of vickerns beliefs 620 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 2: are rooted in racial ideology, which is also seems to 621 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 2: very much be the case for Gaul. 622 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, you definitely see the echoes there. Now, there are 623 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 4: others involved with this stuff who are not a part 624 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 4: of the black metal scene, lone actors outside of Norway 625 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 4: who may simply be disaffected, isolated people. Overwhelmingly the people 626 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 4: who took part in this were young men, and perhaps 627 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 4: they were just seeking an outlet for some inner rage, 628 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 4: some personal conflict, some conflict that they see as a 629 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 4: wider thing. But it doesn't necessarily have anything to do 630 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 4: with what we've been speaking about prior to this. 631 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 2: So it follows then that the original waves of church 632 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 2: burnings were based on this kind of religious fanaticism, the 633 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 2: idea that pre existing Norse mythological beliefs were the true 634 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 2: creed of the region, and that Christianity had to be 635 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 2: uprooted and driven from the land in its entirety. So 636 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 2: the association with a Christian Satan therefore doesn't make a 637 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 2: whole lot of sense in that context, right. Why would 638 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 2: a religious fanatic commit an act of violence in the 639 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 2: name of a supernatural being that his or her actual 640 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 2: religion doesn't even acknowledge. 641 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 4: That is pretty weird, right, We were talking about that 642 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 4: a little bit off, Mike, Just how in order to 643 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,919 Speaker 4: truly believe in some kind of religious satanism you would 644 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 4: have to essentially take the or be a Christian but 645 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 4: just an anti Christian, rather than have another view. It's 646 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 4: really strange. 647 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 2: So denying the idea of Christianity would also make it 648 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 2: where you would have to deny the existence of Christian 649 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 2: Satan or a Lucifer. So there'd be no reason whatsoever 650 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 2: in this frame of thought for Satan to exist, much 651 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 2: less to be supported by physical acts of violence. Fun fact, 652 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 2: how much of a cultural supremacist is Vickarans Well? He 653 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,800 Speaker 2: actually refers to Christianity as a quote immigrant religion. 654 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:35,720 Speaker 4: How racist is he? 655 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 2: He constantly complains that the character based on him in 656 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 2: the fictional film Lords of Chaos is a quote fat Jew. 657 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 2: This guy is kind of a hot garbage person. 658 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 4: That is unfortunate that that person has those beliefs and 659 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 4: says those thinks. Okay, so we're gonna take another quick 660 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 4: word from our sponsor, and then we're gonna come back 661 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 4: with our conclusions and what we've found here. We're back. 662 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,879 Speaker 4: So the question remains how much of the satanism that's 663 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 4: extolled in Black Metal, at least at the time that 664 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 4: the church burnings were happening, was genuine, how much of 665 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 4: it was ideological, or how much of it was true 666 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 4: theistic satanism that we've talked about before on the show, 667 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 4: and how much of it was more or less window 668 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 4: dressing or pr meant to provoke and garner attention. Because remember, 669 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 4: these are musicians. They have bands, they have obligations a 670 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 4: lot of times to sell a certain number of records, 671 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 4: and you need to get your name out there. This 672 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 4: is certainly one way to do it, but you could 673 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 4: also wind up in jail, which would probably be a 674 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 4: bad call. But we do know that there were true 675 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 4: believers in the Scandinavian black metal scene. Uronymous this guy 676 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 4: that we've talked about earlier. He was often credited as 677 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 4: one of the primary founders of the actual Satanic movement. 678 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 4: He described himself as a theistic Satanist. 679 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 2: Exactly in an interview by Asa Lafenpera for Kill Yourself 680 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,439 Speaker 2: magazine charmingly titled magazine, Uronymous put his beliefs in this 681 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 2: way quote, I believe in a horned devil, a personified Satan. 682 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 2: In my opinion, all the other forms of Satanism are 683 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 2: bullsh I hate that some people think up idiotic ways 684 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 2: of making eternal peace in the world and dare to 685 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 2: call it Satanism like so many do. Satanism comes from 686 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 2: religious Christianity, and therefore it shall stay. I'm a religious 687 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,879 Speaker 2: person and I will fight those who misuse his name. 688 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 2: People are not supposed to believe in themselves and be individuals, 689 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 2: be individualists. Rather, they are supposed to obey, to be 690 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 2: the slaves of religion. I think he's being tongue in 691 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 2: cheek here. I don't I know. 692 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 4: It seems like. 693 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 2: A smart alec. 694 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 4: It seems like so much of it is just a commentary, 695 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 4: it's cultural commentary. But again, in a way, these are 696 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 4: these are artists, right, These are people who are massively 697 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 4: creative when they when they make music, when they you know, 698 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 4: decide what their band's gonna look like, what the stage 699 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 4: is gonna be like, what the album cover is gonna 700 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 4: look like. It certainly isn't hard to imagine that there's 701 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 4: also some creativity happening here when you're speaking with a 702 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 4: magazine such as this. But you know, to this day, 703 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,280 Speaker 4: long after Uronymous is murder, remember this was a whole 704 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 4: other thing, right by varg Vickerns. Yeah, people argue about 705 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 4: how much of his image Uronymous, how much of it 706 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 4: was sincere, and how much of it was truly attention 707 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 4: seeking or you know, posturing or again kind of an 708 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,720 Speaker 4: act on purpose to be a part of the stage 709 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 4: show and a part of the version of himself that 710 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 4: exists within his music. 711 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 2: And yet none of this stuff, none of these realizations 712 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 2: are gonna unburn any churches. 713 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 4: So there it is. 714 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 2: There was in fact, an active conspiracy to burn churches 715 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 2: in Norway in the nineteen nineth But however coordinated these 716 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 2: attacks might have seemed outsiders, the reality is they were 717 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:10,280 Speaker 2: motivated by a number of different, at times completely contradictory reasons. 718 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, you're talking about religious fanaticism led some people 719 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 4: to set fire. Others appeared to be attention seeking. They 720 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 4: seem to be displaying provocative behavior on purpose for a 721 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 4: different reason. 722 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 2: Yes, some acceptance seeking or proving themselves to be part 723 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 2: of a group of isolated loners, which is really interesting 724 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,720 Speaker 2: to write, I'm part of this group of isolated people. 725 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 2: Well it's the counterintuitive, right. 726 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, but again it makes sense in another way. And 727 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 4: you know they're also cultural and ideological and sometimes racial 728 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 4: supremacists that were in play there, as we saw at 729 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 4: the end. But as for a true you know, shadow 730 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 4: of Satanism that's looming over Scandinavia, we still have to 731 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 4: ask ourselves in the end how much was true satanism 732 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 4: on the part of the individuals involved. There were some, 733 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 4: but we can't prove much more than that. How much 734 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 4: of this whole thing was influenced by the media coverage, 735 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 4: by a bit of hysteria. I mean, there are a 736 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 4: lot of churches burning around in a fairly short period 737 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,439 Speaker 4: of time. That could be pretty scary, and it would 738 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 4: also cause people to turn on their TVs and watch 739 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 4: a news station and buy newspapers. 740 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and how many of these incidents were just attempts 741 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 2: to get attention. More than twenty years later, these questions 742 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 2: kind of still remain, and. 743 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 4: I don't know how we're truly gonna get rid of 744 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 4: all of them, but we do know there's more to 745 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 4: look at here, and perhaps we'll continue down this rabbit 746 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 4: hole a little bit, you know, at a later date, 747 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 4: but for now, we're gonna leave it at that. Churches 748 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,800 Speaker 4: were burned, for sure, and enough people within the black 749 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 4: metal scene in Norway and the rest of Scandinavia, enough 750 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 4: people seem to be in on it and happy about. 751 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 2: It, yeah, willing to talk about it. There's a really 752 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 2: interesting documentary called Before the Light Takes Us that is 753 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 2: about all of this stuff. Really interesting, goes into great 754 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 2: detail about the feud between bar Zoom and Mayhem and 755 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 2: that murder and how that kind of fed into this 756 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 2: scene and a lot of the kind of I don't know, 757 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 2: for lack of a better term, identity politics behind this stuff, 758 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 2: because it was these kind of factions about like who 759 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 2: could be more evil and who, you know, was more 760 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 2: a true believer. But even within that there is a 761 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 2: lot of posturing. And I mean, you know, these we 762 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 2: haven't even talked about this. These these black metal artists, 763 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 2: they wear corpse paint and I have a very which 764 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 2: is white makeup and you know kind of runny black 765 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 2: eye like liners around their eyes, sort of looking almost 766 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 2: like a king diamond that that the artist or whatever 767 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 2: or like sting the wrestler. Yeah, I have a very 768 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 2: distinct memory of a really great article because a lot 769 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 2: of this happened when I was a kid who was 770 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 2: in Spin magazine and an interviewed a handful of like 771 00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 2: kind of like big figures in the Scandinavian black metal scene. 772 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 2: And I remember one of them like had a decaying 773 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,359 Speaker 2: crow that he kept in a bag and every time 774 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 2: he would like perform, he would like sniff the decaying 775 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 2: crow in the bag so that he had the set 776 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 2: the smell of death in his nostrils. So, I mean, 777 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 2: there's definitely a drive among some of these folks to 778 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 2: be very authentic and to absolutely i don't know, for 779 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 2: lack of a better term, practice what they preached, and 780 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,320 Speaker 2: some of that involved burning down churches. 781 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, and sniff and crows. That is just that's a 782 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,280 Speaker 4: way to win me over. 783 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,919 Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't 784 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts. 785 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,399 Speaker 2: It's right let us know what you think you could reach. 786 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 2: You to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on 787 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 2: Facebook X and YouTube on Instagram and TikTok or Conspiracy 788 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 2: Stuff Show. 789 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 4: If you want to call us dial one eight three 790 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:57,280 Speaker 4: three std WYTK. That's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes. 791 00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 4: Give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if 792 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 4: we can use your name and message on the air. 793 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 4: If you got more to say they can fit in 794 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,359 Speaker 4: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old 795 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 4: fashioned email. 796 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 1: We are the entities that read every single piece of 797 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 1: correspondence we receive. Be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the 798 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 799 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 4: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production 800 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 4: of iHeartRadio. 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