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Speaker 1: The person who had hired me told me I would

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Speaker 1: never work in journalism and that I was blacklisted, and

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Speaker 1: I was so traumatized and ashamed, and oh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was also told at one point that I

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Speaker 2: would never work in journalism again. I guess that's just

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Speaker 2: like a write of passage that at some point in

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Speaker 2: your career someone says to you, like, you're not going

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Speaker 2: to make it, and you just have to be like,

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Speaker 2: who are you to tell me what I can and

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Speaker 2: can't do.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Susie Bannacaram.

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Speaker 1: And this is in retrospect, where each week we revisit

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Speaker 1: a moment from the past that shaped.

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Speaker 3: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about.

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Speaker 1: Today, we're revisiting a few moments from the past, our

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Speaker 1: past that we've in fact tried to stop thinking about.

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Speaker 1: These are some of our most memorable and sometimes cringy

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Speaker 1: adventures in journalism, Susie. We've talked on an earlier episode

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Speaker 1: about some of our journalistic regrets. We have also talked

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Speaker 1: about our crazy some better or more crazy than others.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about hurdles, being women in leadership or climbing

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Speaker 1: the corporate ladder or whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 1: But I actually thought it would be fun to tell

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Speaker 1: people a little bit more about some of our reporting

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Speaker 1: adventures really go behind the scenes, to show people that

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Speaker 1: it's not always as glamorous as it might seem, or

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Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't seem glamorous at all.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, Yeah, I don't know if it's glamorous, but we'll

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Speaker 2: let others decide. I think for me personally, it has

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Speaker 2: not always felt glamorous. I know that I've been lucky

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Speaker 2: to interview some really famous people and we'll talk about that,

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Speaker 2: but often it just feels a little cringey. So we'll

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Speaker 2: see how people respond.

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Speaker 1: I actually started going down this drabbit hole and thinking

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Speaker 1: about this during our Wreckers episode because in that episode

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Speaker 1: we talk about don Imus, the shock jock who said

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Speaker 1: this terrible racist slur about the Wreckers basketball team, and

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Speaker 1: in my mind, don Imus had yelled at me when

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Speaker 1: I was a young reporter at the Boston Globe and

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Speaker 1: tried to get me fired. So I know you and

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Speaker 1: I chatted briefly about this, and I was like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, I have to look up the article.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I went and Nexus to look up this article.

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Speaker 1: That I was talking about, in which I remember Don

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Speaker 1: I was screwing at me, and it was actually a

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Speaker 1: totally different shock jock radio host one in Boston named

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Speaker 1: j Severn.

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Speaker 3: I mean, they're all the same guy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, right, It was around the same era. It

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Speaker 1: was a similar thing. He had said something offensive about

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Speaker 1: Muslim people. I had then called him up for comment

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Speaker 1: when I was working the night shift at the Boston

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Speaker 1: Globe and whatever wrote down what he said, we published it,

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Speaker 1: and then he called my boss to try to get

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Speaker 1: me fired over claiming that he hadn't really said this thing.

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Speaker 3: That sounds like a classic.

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Speaker 2: I've been yelled at so much in my career I

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Speaker 2: can't even remember most of the instances.

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Speaker 3: People just get upset about being covered.

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Speaker 2: They don't like the way they're covered, they don't like

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Speaker 2: us being honest about things they've said, and when it happens,

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Speaker 2: it always feels really scary. But then I think you

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Speaker 2: just kind of get used to putting him behind you,

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Speaker 2: and it's not actually that surprising to me that you

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Speaker 2: didn't even remember his name, or that you had to

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Speaker 2: go back into your own archives. I have to sometimes

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Speaker 2: google myself to find something about something I did or

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Speaker 2: look on my LinkedIn to be like what year did

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Speaker 2: I do that? It's really hard to remember your own career.

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Speaker 1: I find it is, and I think for me anyway,

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Speaker 1: some of the more uncomfortable memories I've tried to block out.

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Speaker 4: Perhaps, Yeah, so I think that's partially.

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Speaker 1: And especially when you're coming up, every little thing that

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Speaker 1: you get wrong, you think is going to mark you

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Speaker 1: forever and you'll never recover.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 2: Also, I can still remember like certain mistakes I made,

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Speaker 2: and like shame washes over me. Luckily, I did not

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Speaker 2: make a lot of mistakes, but there are a couple

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Speaker 2: where when I think about them, even so many years later,

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Speaker 2: I feel terrible. And I do think that's some thing

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Speaker 2: that people don't really realize. Like I think there's this

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Speaker 2: sort of casual notion about journalists being kind of callous

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Speaker 2: or making mistakes and moving on and not caring. But

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Speaker 2: all the journalists I know or I'm close to really

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Speaker 2: hate making mistakes. We recognize that it's a responsibility to

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Speaker 2: get things right. That shit stays with you, at least

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Speaker 2: it does for me. I mean, in some ways you

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Speaker 2: can't be that sensitive to do this job, but in

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Speaker 2: some other ways you can't help, but be a little sensitive.

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Speaker 4: Well, and you should be a little sensitive.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I mean that's true. You have to

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Speaker 2: be sensitive. That's what makes you a good reporter.

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Speaker 3: So what happened when he yelled at you? Were you scared?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny because I can picture exactly where I

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Speaker 1: was sitting in the newsroom at this little sad table

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Speaker 1: where all the student reporters, which is what I was,

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Speaker 1: sat around in the Boston Globe, which was in Dorchester.

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Speaker 1: I was a student at Boston University at the time,

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Speaker 1: but this was six month job, full time paid, and

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Speaker 1: I was working the night cops. So it's sort of

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Speaker 1: like in the movies when you see journalists having to

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Speaker 1: work their way up and cover crime. That's what I

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Speaker 1: was doing. I don't know if that's a thing that

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Speaker 1: still exists. It's very much a relic of a different era.

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Speaker 1: But he called the communal phone, asked for me, screamed

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Speaker 1: at me. I don't remember what was said, and I

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Speaker 1: just remember being like, oh fuck. But ultimately it was fine.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't misquoted him. He was being an asshole. But

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Speaker 1: what remembering this did do was led me to read

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Speaker 1: some of the other articles that I had written during

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Speaker 1: that period, all of which were pretty pretty depressing. I

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Speaker 1: started my shift at four pm and went to midnight.

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Speaker 1: My job was to show up, sit there, listen to

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Speaker 1: the police scanner, and when something happened, something terrible, inevitably

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Speaker 1: happened somewhere in the Greater Boston region, the editors who

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Speaker 1: were sitting at the city desk would shout pre slack.

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Speaker 1: They would scream across the newsroom to me and be like, Jessica,

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Speaker 1: get to Roxbury, get to Georgester, get to Southee, wherever

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Speaker 1: it was I needed to go. And I would grab

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Speaker 1: my map because this is pre so cute.

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Speaker 3: I love the idea of little Jessica in her map

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Speaker 3: and her little like notepad.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god. And you really had to get to

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Speaker 4: know the city because you were in a race.

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Speaker 1: You were racing all the other local reporters to get

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Speaker 1: to whatever stupid, sad, horrible thing had happened. And so

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Speaker 1: typically these things were like a water man had broken,

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Speaker 1: or there had been an accident on the four ninety

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Speaker 1: five highway, or let's see, I looked up a couple

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Speaker 1: of headlines, so let me just read you a few

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Speaker 1: of them. Missing woman found dead, street voltage electrocutes dog,

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Speaker 1: crash kills two on I four ninety five, man shocked

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Speaker 1: to death in Jamaica, plant like. These were the stories

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Speaker 1: that I was writing during this time.

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Speaker 2: And also just showing up at those scenes in a

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Speaker 2: little god like when you don't know the vibe. It's

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Speaker 2: really intense to show up to a police scene where

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Speaker 2: someone's just been killed.

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Speaker 4: It's so intense.

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Speaker 1: And at this time, you know, there were reporters from

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Speaker 1: all the local publications, of which there were a few.

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Speaker 4: Then it was winter and so.

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Speaker 1: Your pen would freeze, so you had to not to

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Speaker 1: bring a pencil for your notebook because otherwise you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be able to take notes.

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Speaker 3: It's an old reporter's notes.

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Speaker 4: And people didn't want to talk to you. Of course

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Speaker 4: they don't want to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: Something awful has just happened, and then your job is

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Speaker 1: to go knock on doors. So that's another experience of

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Speaker 1: being yelled at in one of those cases where it

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Speaker 1: wasn't like you could be defiant.

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Speaker 4: Because this is some asshole just trying to intimidate you.

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Speaker 1: These are grieving parents or people that have just had

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Speaker 1: a tragedy, and you're some dumb kid showing up at

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Speaker 1: the door me as a white person often in minority neighborhoods,

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Speaker 1: being like, can I get a quote for this stupid story.

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Speaker 1: I almost didn't become a journalist because of that job.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's such a different kind of journalism than

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Speaker 2: what you ended up doing.

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Speaker 4: It's such a different kind of journalism.

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Speaker 1: And we're finishing that my six month gig or whatever

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Speaker 1: it was, and I was also working at a restaurant

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Speaker 1: at the time and just being like, I don't know

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Speaker 1: that I can do this, But I guess some of

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Speaker 1: that is to say, like, the lows can be pretty low,

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Speaker 1: but the highst can also be pretty high.

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Speaker 4: Do you feel that what was your worst assignment?

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Speaker 2: Well, I've had a lot of crazy assignments, but this

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Speaker 2: reminds me that I too, worked an overnight shift. So

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Speaker 2: my first job in journalism was at NBC News and

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Speaker 2: I was part of this fellowship program and they would

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Speaker 2: rotate us through the shows. And one of the shows

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Speaker 2: at NBC News is obviously the Today Show.

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Speaker 3: So when I got to the Today Show, speaking.

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Speaker 2: Of sad cubicles, there weren't enough desks, so they had

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Speaker 2: me sit at an area that was actually designed to

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Speaker 2: hold a printer. And I had this friend who was

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Speaker 2: also doing the program with me, this woman Shoshana guy

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Speaker 2: who's amazing and has gone on to become a really

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Speaker 2: successful executive producer. She and I would literally just count

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Speaker 2: down the minutes until we could go to the cafeteria

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Speaker 2: and complain about our embarrassing jobs. I remember one of

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Speaker 2: the first things that happened. And I had had a

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Speaker 2: career before journalism, right, so I was an adult, and

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Speaker 2: I remember someone coming over to me and being like,

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Speaker 2: do you think you can make a photo copy of

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Speaker 2: this sheet of paper? And I was like, I think

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Speaker 2: I can't. Why are you speaking to me like I'm unwell.

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Speaker 2: He was so strange that experience, but also great. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I got to do so many things, but one of

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Speaker 2: the things I got to do that was not that

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Speaker 2: fun is work.

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Speaker 3: The overnight shift.

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Speaker 2: And basically, for a morning show like that, someone needs

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Speaker 2: to work. I think we would clock in at like ten,

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Speaker 2: and you need to work through the show the next morning,

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Speaker 2: and the show starts airing at seven, right, so maybe

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Speaker 2: even we got there a little earlier eight or nine

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Speaker 2: o'clock news breaks overnight, you have to book it or

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Speaker 2: find the guests, and you're just like polishing and finishing

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Speaker 2: things and then you go home afterwards.

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Speaker 3: You go home at ten o'clock a long night. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And one thing that happened that I have never forgotten

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Speaker 2: is that I actually did my first big booking during

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Speaker 2: the overnights. That's how I became a booker for a

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Speaker 2: time at the Today Show. And it was a story

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Speaker 2: about a nurse who was a serial killer, so he

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Speaker 2: was slowly killing his patients. They had discovered this, he

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Speaker 2: had been arraigned, and we were trying to figure out

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Speaker 2: what guests could lead the show the next morning to

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Speaker 2: talk about this. So somehow I track down his sister.

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Speaker 2: She says to me, I will come on tomorrow, but

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Speaker 2: I won't do it without the approval of my lawyer.

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Speaker 3: And I don't have a home number for him.

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Speaker 2: And this was before cell phone rate, I guess, or

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Speaker 2: before cell phones were.

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Speaker 3: Like so common.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I do this whole rigormarole, Like I basically

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Speaker 2: have to track down this man's home number by going

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Speaker 2: to the law firm's website, finding the person with the

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Speaker 2: most unusual sounding name, googling that, getting their phone number,

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Speaker 2: talking to them, convincing them to call the lawyer, and

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Speaker 2: it does end up that we get them for the

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Speaker 2: morning show.

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Speaker 3: The lawyer and the sister come on the.

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Speaker 2: Next morning, and you would think this is a triumphant

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Speaker 2: story right about how I booked this thing, But what

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Speaker 2: happens is in the morning, the executive producer shows up.

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Speaker 2: We've been there overnight, we've been scrambling all night to

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Speaker 2: get this arrange. And the first thing he does is

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Speaker 2: he's like, who is Susie. Why does the note say

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Speaker 2: Susie book?

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Speaker 3: I'm like, who is that? And I'm literally standing next

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Speaker 3: to him. I'm like, that'sy me and he's like oh.

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Speaker 2: And then the next thing he proceeded to do after

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Speaker 2: he found out who I was and that I had

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Speaker 2: booked the lead guest on the show, is to give

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Speaker 2: me some cash and tell me to go buy coffee

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Speaker 2: for the entire control room, so like twenty coffee orders, and.

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Speaker 3: That's what I did.

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Speaker 2: So it's like, even when you have wins in those

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Speaker 2: early years, they make sure you remember that you are nothing,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, They're like, go buy the coffee.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Well that just reminded me. And this

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Speaker 1: isn't a reporting assignment. But this is my first internship

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Speaker 1: when I moved to New York, which I quit in

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Speaker 1: the first week, which was at New York Magazine. I

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Speaker 1: had two internships at the time. This was after the

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Speaker 1: Boston Globe job.

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Speaker 4: I've been working in a.

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Speaker 1: Bar saving money to moved to New York, and I

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Speaker 1: had lined up two internships for myself. This was in

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Speaker 1: the time when everything was unpaid, so you also had

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Speaker 1: to line up a bartending world waitressing job. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: had a day job at the Village Voice, working for

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Speaker 1: this amazing investigative reporter, the late Wayne Barrett, who taught

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Speaker 1: me so much. And then two days a week I

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Speaker 1: would go to New York Magazine and I really wanted

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Speaker 1: to work in magazines.

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Speaker 4: And my first assignment there, my first.

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Speaker 1: And only assignment there was to travel across the city

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Speaker 1: in search of red velvet cupcakes.

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Speaker 3: And one of them.

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Speaker 4: I had to go to Bay Ridge, so as far as.

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Speaker 1: You can possibly go on the New York City subway

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Speaker 1: because there was one particular cupcake spot that they wanted

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Speaker 1: and it took me all day to get there, and

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Speaker 1: I was carrying like fifty cupcakes.

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Speaker 4: And then I return and I had brought.

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Speaker 1: The wrong red velvet cupcake, and so they were like,

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Speaker 1: you need to go back, and anyway, that's when I quit.

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Speaker 3: Wait, I have important questions.

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Speaker 2: Okay, were the red velvet cupcakes for a story or

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Speaker 2: were they just for someone's birthday.

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Speaker 1: I think they were for some sort of taste test

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Speaker 1: story or something along those lines. So like, fine, I

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Speaker 1: guess somebody has to get those cupcakes. But in my

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Speaker 1: other job, I was working for this investigative reporter, going

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Speaker 1: to the courthouse doing all this serious stuff, and then

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Speaker 1: for two days a week I would go get cupcakes.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, I quit, and the person who had hired

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Speaker 1: me told me I would never work in journalism and

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Speaker 1: that I was blacklisted. That's another one of those things

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Speaker 1: where I was so traumatized and ashamed and didn't know.

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Speaker 4: What to do with that that I really blocked it

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Speaker 4: out for a long time.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I was also told at one point that

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Speaker 2: I would never work in journalism.

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Speaker 3: Again. I guess that's just like a rite of passage

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Speaker 3: that at some.

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Speaker 2: Point in your career someone says to you like you're

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Speaker 2: not going to make it, and you just have to

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Speaker 2: be like, who are you to tell me what? I

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Speaker 2: can and can't do so at some point, if you're

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Speaker 2: not getting anything out of a free internship, it does

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Speaker 2: really feel like a waste of time. But I did

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Speaker 2: also have lots of internships where I really learned a

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Speaker 2: lot about the business, And even in some of my

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Speaker 2: early jobs when I failed at something, I still learned

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Speaker 2: a lot from it.

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Speaker 3: Do you have examples of that?

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Speaker 4: Oh, that's such a good question. I think I have

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Speaker 4: a lot of examples of that.

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Speaker 1: But there are often times when stories just won't work out,

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Speaker 1: Like you'll have spent months reporting something and it will

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Speaker 1: never see the light of day, or some boss will

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Speaker 1: give you a crazy assignment. I think one of my

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Speaker 1: crazier assignments, like a doomed to fail assignment, came from

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Speaker 1: our former boss, Tina Brown at Newsweek, and she sent

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Speaker 1: me to quote unquote, find Casey Anthony.

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Speaker 4: Do you remember the story.

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Speaker 3: Anthony, who everyone in America was looking for?

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Speaker 4: Remind our listeners who Casey Anthony was.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 2: Casey Anthony was a woman in Florida, because where else

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Speaker 2: would she be from, who became the subject of tabloid

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Speaker 2: fascination because her daughter went missing.

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Speaker 1: Kaylee Anthony disappeared in June two thousand and eight, but

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Speaker 1: her mother didn't report her missing for a month.

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Speaker 3: Her skeletal remains were found in two plastic bags dumped

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Speaker 3: in the woods.

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Speaker 1: Her mother told police and nanny had kidnapped her.

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Speaker 3: Now almost three years later that mother Casey faces the

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Speaker 3: death penalty.

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Speaker 1: Really not since the nineteen ninety five acquittal and murder

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Speaker 1: charges of OJ Simpson have we seen this kind of

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Speaker 1: drama in a courtroom as when this jury also said

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Speaker 1: not guilty.

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Speaker 2: She told like a bunch of wild stories about what

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Speaker 2: had happened to the child, and she was posting on

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Speaker 2: social media at the time about what a great life

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Speaker 2: she was living, So I think that made it also

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Speaker 2: a very fascinating story for people damning photos of her

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Speaker 2: dancing while her two year old decomposed in a swamp.

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Speaker 3: It's been a story that has captivated the media and

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Speaker 3: much of the nation.

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Speaker 2: But to be fair, everything I remember about the story

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Speaker 2: I remember from the Law and Order SBUD so any times,

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Speaker 2: but I'm pretty sure she spent some time in jail

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Speaker 2: and now she's out. She did some kind of docu series. Yes,

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Speaker 2: that was very controversial.

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Speaker 1: Well, so there was a period of time when it

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Speaker 1: was before the trial, but she was being held in

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Speaker 1: jail and then she was going to be released waiting

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Speaker 1: for the trial to happen. And like you said, this

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Speaker 1: was the tabloid story. Every news channel was covering it.

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Speaker 1: All of the television news. Every reporter was down in Florida,

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Speaker 1: camped outside of the jailhouse to try to, like I

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Speaker 1: don't know, follow her somewhere, to try to get an

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Speaker 1: interview or figure out where she was going. So Tina Brown,

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Speaker 1: our editor, was like, I am assigning you to go

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Speaker 1: find Casey Anthony.

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Speaker 4: Had I been covering this story?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 4: Did I have any special skills to find her?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 4: I got there.

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Speaker 1: I rented a car. I was with a photographer. We

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Speaker 1: had like some shitty, cheap rental vehicle. There were all

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Speaker 1: these black SUVs crowded around the jail. There were all

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Speaker 1: these and know, if you remember the time, they were

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Speaker 1: like weird, creepy male supporters who thought Casey Anthony was

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Speaker 1: this kind of ye pot.

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Speaker 4: And then there were.

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Speaker 1: People who thought she'd murdered her daughters. So there were

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Speaker 1: all these protesters and we were like.

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Speaker 4: What exactly are we supposed to be doing here?

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Speaker 1: And meanwhile, the tabloid stations and the news stations. This

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Speaker 1: was pre drones, I guess, so they had like helicopters

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Speaker 1: that were like hovering over the jail. So like when

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Speaker 1: her suv exited the jail, and I remember this happening

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Speaker 1: because it was streamed live on many channels and on

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Speaker 1: Court TV or whatever.

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Speaker 4: It was followed all through the city.

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Speaker 1: They went on this kind of chase through the city

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Speaker 1: and we are one of hundreds of vehicles trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out where she's going. We don't have a helicopter, like,

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Speaker 1: we're just like two random people in this car trying

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Speaker 1: to find her. And I remember there being so much

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Speaker 1: pressure to find Casey Anthony.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, we failed.

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Speaker 1: We didn't find her, We didn't know where the hell

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Speaker 1: she was going or how to get there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it makes sense that you wouldn't have succeeded

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Speaker 2: in doing this. You were up against profe bookers. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there is something that people don't always realize, which is

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Speaker 2: there are journalists.

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Speaker 3: And some people would argue that using the word journalist

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Speaker 3: here is.

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Speaker 2: Not applicable, but there are people who work in television

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Speaker 2: news primarily but sometimes other mediums, and their job is

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Speaker 2: literally to track people down when a story breaks right.

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Speaker 2: That is literally their only job. They track down contact

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Speaker 2: information for people they call, They fly to go there.

399
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Speaker 2: It's incredibly competitive on the morning shows especially. I don't

400
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Speaker 2: know what it's like now, but there used to be

401
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,760
Speaker 2: stories of people stealing guests from each other, showing up

402
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 2: and bribing the guest. You know, there's this whole underbelly

403
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Speaker 2: which obviously isn't legitimate.

404
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Speaker 3: You're not allowed to pay guests.

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Speaker 2: And I remember when I was at the Today Show

406
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Speaker 2: a producer got in a lot of trouble because she

407
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Speaker 2: bought a potential guest.

408
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Speaker 3: Some genes, and even that was considered foreboden.

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Speaker 2: So you know, they're not supposed to do this, but

410
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 2: there are lots of stories of underhanded booking Shenanigan. So

411
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Speaker 2: to send like a you know, a reporter.

412
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Speaker 4: I'm just like some twenty five year old idiot.

413
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, to compete against this group of sharks that

414
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,720
Speaker 2: have been camped out there for weeks, making contact with

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Speaker 2: every single person that Casey Anthony has.

416
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Speaker 3: Ever spoken to, trying to find a way in.

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Speaker 2: Like you were never going to compete, It's true, and

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00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,000
Speaker 2: a good editor would have actually assigned you a story

419
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Speaker 2: about that, about the circle around Casey Anthony instead of

420
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Speaker 2: being like, go find Casey.

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Speaker 1: Or like write some interesting thing about trying to find

422
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Speaker 1: her and not being able to write.

423
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Speaker 2: That's the story that actually would have been unique because

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Speaker 2: you weren't going to beat the Today Show for Casey Anthony,

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Speaker 2: you know, and I actually did booking for the Today Show, right.

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Speaker 2: The reason I know about this booking thing is that

427
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 2: after that overnight shift, they put me on booking, which

428
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,480
Speaker 2: was an assignment you would be put on separately.

429
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Speaker 3: You didn't produce segments.

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Speaker 1: Oh so you had done so well that they were like,

431
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:56,800
Speaker 1: all right, now you're on books.

432
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Speaker 2: Well well enough to be the coffee girl and to

433
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Speaker 2: be put on booking.

434
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, but this is perfect because I want to

435
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:09,399
Speaker 1: ask you about some of these bookings.

436
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:23,120
Speaker 3: So I have two stories. The first one is pretty sad.

437
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,680
Speaker 2: The first time I was ever actually sent on location

438
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 2: to do a booking. A lot of what I did

439
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 2: was finding contact information and reaching people by the phone.

440
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 2: But the first time I was sent out, a senior

441
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Speaker 2: producer who I really loved pulled me into her office

442
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,920
Speaker 2: and was like, listen, this girl was on spring break

443
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Speaker 2: with her friends and she fell off the balcony and

444
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Speaker 2: we would like her parents to come on to talk

445
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,440
Speaker 2: about this tomorrow. And I don't remember a lot of

446
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,199
Speaker 2: the other details. I'm not sure what the parents were

447
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:50,919
Speaker 2: supposed to tell us. I don't know if it was

448
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 2: because they thought there might have been foul play, like

449
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 2: there must have been a reason. And I was like,

450
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 2: what do you mean, and she was like, yeah, we

451
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 2: need you to go to this house in New Jersey,

452
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:03,680
Speaker 2: to where her parents live.

453
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:05,160
Speaker 3: Go downstairs.

454
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,919
Speaker 2: There's a flower shop, buy some flowers, get a card,

455
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,120
Speaker 2: write a nice note in it, put your phone number,

456
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 2: and drive out there. And I think they ordered me

457
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,399
Speaker 2: a car. And I was like, really dressed up that

458
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 2: day for some reason. I'm not someone who dresses up

459
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 2: that often, but for some reason, I felt so self

460
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 2: conscious being in this very fancy, like knee high boots

461
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 2: kind of outfit. And I drive out there, and of

462
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,680
Speaker 2: course there's a police officer stationed at the door because

463
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 2: people have been showing up all day.

464
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,200
Speaker 3: Reporters have been showing up all day.

465
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,919
Speaker 2: And I just remember being so embarrassed because the police

466
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 2: officer was so appalled by.

467
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 4: Me, despicable reporters.

468
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 3: She was just like, what are you doing here?

469
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 2: And I was like, listen, I just want to bring

470
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,360
Speaker 2: some flowers, and he was like, that's not why you're here,

471
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 2: Like yeah, whatever, And I was there for less than

472
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 2: ten minutes. I mean, there was nothing for me to do.

473
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 2: I left the flowers in the car, never heard from them.

474
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 2: And that was one of the first.

475
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 3: Times where I was like, oh, this is kind of shameful.

476
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 2: I have really complicated feelings about bookings like this isn't

477
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,479
Speaker 2: a great example because in this case, it's hard to

478
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,239
Speaker 2: justify yeah, showing up to these people's house. But I

479
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 2: do think part of the reason we go to people

480
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 2: right after tragedies is we do want to give people

481
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 2: the opportunity to tell their stories. And sometimes those stories

482
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 2: have real impact. Yeah, they are meaningful to the people

483
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 2: who hear them, but also it can feel really meaningful

484
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,919
Speaker 2: to share your story and to try and make meaning

485
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 2: out of this thing that's happened to you.

486
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 3: So I don't think.

487
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 2: That it's all just like vultures circling around people. I

488
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 2: know that that is a common perception. The next story

489
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell, though, it's not as sad.

490
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 3: So I was sent to Boston. There was a legal case.

491
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 2: I think it was one of the first legal cases

492
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,360
Speaker 2: between a former wife and husband over embryos, like who

493
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: was going to get the embryos?

494
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 3: Oh, that's interesting, this is still the Today Show.

495
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: So I get sent and that was still when there

496
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 2: was money slashing around. So I remember I was staying

497
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: in like a really fancy hotel and they were just like,

498
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,719
Speaker 2: you're going to stay until there's some kind of ruling.

499
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,479
Speaker 2: So I was there and one of the things I

500
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,400
Speaker 2: was doing was buttering up the doctors so that one

501
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 2: of them could come on the doctors who had actually

502
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 2: extracted and fertilized the embryos. So I go to the

503
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 2: doctor's office and one of them is like, we should

504
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,239
Speaker 2: all go to dinner tonight, and I'm like okay, and

505
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 2: I have a company card, like part of the thing

506
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 2: is you're allowed to pay for things. Yeah, so I'm

507
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 2: just like sure, I'm happy to take you guys to dinner,

508
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 2: let me know where. And we get to dinner and

509
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: they've all brought their wives. It's now a dinner with

510
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: six people and me. So it's seven people and it's

511
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 2: a fancy restaurant. But like, I'm not really paying attention

512
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 2: to what they're ordering, because you know, I'm just doing

513
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 2: my job.

514
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 3: And then the bill comes and I swear to god

515
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 3: it's eight hundred dollars.

516
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my god, it'd be great

517
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 1: because it's like you have a corporate credit card, but

518
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: there's rules and limits.

519
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not supposed to have been eight hundred dollars

520
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 2: on dinner. And also what was I supposed to do?

521
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: Like they were obviously taking advantage of my situation. They

522
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 2: knew that I wasn't supposed to do this. But so

523
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 2: then I remember, I was like, I'm gonna go to

524
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 2: the bathroom and I went outside and call it the

525
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 2: same senior producer I was working with, and I was like, Polly,

526
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 2: I just.

527
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 3: Spent eight hundred dollars on dinner, Please don't fire me.

528
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 3: And she was just dying. She was laughing so much.

529
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: She's like, Okay, not great. Yeah, she was like, are

530
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: they great? Don't do that again? But like, have you

531
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 2: booked them?

532
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 3: And we did? Oh you did it in the end,

533
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 3: Oh my god, yeah, But was it worth all that?

534
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 3: I don't know.

535
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: But sometimes these stories are really sad and sometimes they're hilarious.

536
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 3: You know, it just depends.

537
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 1: Oh my god, wait, this reminds me of a bill

538
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: story that I'll tell. So you're eight hundred dollars, Bill,

539
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: I can top that by a couple of thousand, because

540
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: in around twenty ten, by the time this are is

541
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: we probably will still be in this moment where everyone

542
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 1: seems to be talking about and having just discovered polyamory.

543
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 3: Everyone's obsessed with polyamory.

544
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 1: Now everyone is obsessed with polyamory. There's a new book

545
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: out right now there. It was the cover of New

546
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: York magazine.

547
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah.

548
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna go on the record here and say

549
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: that I am too lazy for polyamory, Like one relationship

550
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: is enough work.

551
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, definitely too. It's scheduling.

552
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: It's scheduling, Like it's not about sex, it's about scheduling,

553
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: which I know because in twenty ten I spent a

554
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: lot of time with a polyamorous family in my hometown

555
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: of Seattle, because obviously we've been poll out there, and

556
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: so part of this was we were producing this documentary

557
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: short on them, and I was also writing this feature story,

558
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 1: and it was based around a triad, as they called themselves.

559
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 1: Is one woman, Teresa, and then her two partners who

560
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: were men, but then each of them also had secondary

561
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: partner ships. The two men each had a girlfriend who

562
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: then had a husband or a boyfriend. I had to

563
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: map these people out to keep track of them all. Anyway,

564
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: I needed to take them all out to dinner because

565
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: we needed to do this photo shoot and I needed

566
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: to have them all in one place and blah blah blah,

567
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: And so we go to this restaurant. This was not

568
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: long after I had been working in restaurants in Seattle.

569
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: So I had a friend who was managing a restaurant.

570
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: He got us a good table, and the extended poly

571
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: members of the clan kept showing up. So the table

572
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And I,

573
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 1: similar to you, I had this corporate card. I had

574
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: to like fight really hard to get this corporate card.

575
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 4: It was very.

576
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: Controlled, and I left the dinner at one point to

577
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: go call my editor to be like, oh my god,

578
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: this bill is going to be so fucking big. I

579
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: think you're gonna have to get approval from finance and

580
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: is this okay? And oh my god, and what am

581
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: I going to do because it was like twenty five

582
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: hundred dollars or something, because oh my.

583
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 3: God, it's so manrifying. I would have been terrified.

584
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 4: But anyway, moral of the story, it all worked out.

585
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: We all ate our food, we put out the piece,

586
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: we put the mini documentary out.

587
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 4: Everyone was happy the.

588
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 3: End, and you got a great picture.

589
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 2: I'm sure, like I'm sure that was a great picture

590
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 2: of all those people together. Okay, so we've talked about

591
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: some of the more harrowing stories from our reporting. Let's

592
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 2: talk about a fun one, yes and expensive. Who would

593
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: you say is the most interesting or fun person you've

594
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: ever interviewed.

595
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's such a good question.

596
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 1: Often it's not the famous people who end up being

597
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: the most interesting, but it's certainly interesting to see how

598
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: famous people concoct their lives and their press interviews. So,

599
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: for instance, I interviewed Jennifer Aniston at one point, and

600
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: I got to go to her house and it was

601
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: all very fun, and her dogs were there and they

602
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: were super cute. But it was such a controlled environment

603
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: that it didn't really feel like you were getting into

604
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: a ton of death. But one person actually who was

605
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: just really complex and interesting to interview was Monica Lewinsky.

606
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: I've profiled her twice now, first was in twenty ten.

607
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: This was when she really hadn't been in the public eye.

608
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: This was before her ted talk in some years. Like

609
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: the last public thing she had done was she had

610
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 1: launched this failed handbag line and people kind of mocked

611
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: her for it. And she was super super wary of

612
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: talking publicly and of the media, as you can imagine

613
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: based on what happened with her. And so that was

614
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: a real exercise in trying to make somebody feel comfortable

615
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: but also recognizing that you had to be firm in

616
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: certain cases, because she was like in and then out,

617
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: and then in and out, and like months into the

618
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: profile process, she would pull out of the profile and

619
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: then I would have to call and I would call

620
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: her publicist and I'd be like.

621
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 4: Look, we're really not trying to screw her over. We

622
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 4: have to move this forward.

623
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: And at the same time she was so cautious and nervous,

624
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: she was also really open and raw. And she did

625
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: have a publicist, but the publicist was not with her

626
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: in New York when I was profailing her the first time,

627
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: and so it was just her living her life. We

628
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: went to a play together, she was doing a couple

629
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: of public speaking things. She would take me with her.

630
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: We would get in taxis. She at this time was

631
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: preparing to give her big ted talk that she would

632
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: do that would go viral about bullying and online shaming,

633
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: which would sort of catapult her into a new realm

634
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: as an anti bullying activist and advocate as opposed to

635
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: just the woman caught up in the scandal with Bill Clinton.

636
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: So she was.

637
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 4: Pretty raw and normal and like funny.

638
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: She has a really funny sense of humor and is

639
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: very self deprecating and like we would go sit in

640
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: a corner booth at a restaurant and order French fries

641
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: and it was pretty fun. It was fun to get

642
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: to know her, Yeah, and a challenge to convince her

643
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: that she, I guess could trust me.

644
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 2: I mean that makes sense, right, You can imagine and

645
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: why she was so wary of journalists given what she'd

646
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: been through. But I do think all of that came

647
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 2: through in your profiles of her. I really do think

648
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: I got to know her a little bit, which is

649
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 2: the best case scenario, after those profiles, and in a

650
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 2: way that felt really human and authentic. I've been thinking,

651
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 2: who is the most interesting person I interviewed? And I've

652
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: done a lot of celebrity interviews partially because I did

653
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: a celebrity segment for some period of time. For a year,

654
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: I worked randomly in Washington, but my job was to

655
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: interview celebrities about the causes they cared about. So every

656
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 2: week I would interview someone famous. It was kind of

657
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: an intense experience. And there were lots of amazing people.

658
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: Leonardo DiCaprio, Natalie Portman, Michael Douglas, all these wild people.

659
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 2: But the one that I remember the most, well, there's two.

660
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: One is Clare Dances, who I think I've talked about before,

661
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: who complimented me on my shoes and I will never forget,

662
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: and it's.

663
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 3: Really all a duck to win me over because I

664
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 3: was already such a fan.

665
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: And then the most memorable one is Loretta l Okay.

666
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: So Larelyn, for those who don't know, is this very

667
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 2: famous country singer. She was a bit older by the

668
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: time I interviewed her. I got to go down to

669
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: where she lived, and she had this museum on her property.

670
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: It was literally a double wide trailer that she had

671
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 2: turned into a museum of all of her costumes that

672
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: she made herself. She was so so famous, but she

673
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: had sewn all her own costumes for a long time,

674
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: and she took me by the hand and she walked

675
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: me through the museum and told me a story about

676
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: each item. It really was such a moving and beautiful experience,

677
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: and she was such a lovely person, and I just

678
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: felt really lucky that I got to have that experience

679
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: with her. I think it's an experience so few people

680
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: get to have. And you and I've talked about this.

681
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 2: I did interview and meet a lot of people who

682
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: I admired, like at one point I interviewed John Cusack,

683
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: who you know growing up, Say Anything was one of

684
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 2: my favorite movies. But part of the reason I think

685
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: a lot of these interviews don't stay with you is

686
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: what you're talking about in terms of how how control

687
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 2: the environments are. Like often I would meet this person,

688
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: talk to them for ten minutes, and then they would

689
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: be gone, and it would be in this very controlled

690
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 2: environment with a publicist. So while I think from the

691
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: outside it can feel like, oh, you've met so many

692
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: famous people, like I don't feel like I've.

693
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 4: Really met these people.

694
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm like I've been in the same

695
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: room as these people and they have spoken to me,

696
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 2: and I've spoken to them, But that's not the same

697
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: thing as what I'm describing with Loretta, where I feel

698
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 2: like we genuinely spent time together and shared herself with me. Right.

699
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: You know that feels really rare because for good reason,

700
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: celebrities are wary of sharing themselves with every person who

701
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: wants a piece of them. That makes sense to me.

702
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 2: I think you do have to protect yourself a little

703
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: bit when you're in the public eye.

704
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: Okay, I need you to talk about Jessicus Simpsons, Okay,

705
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: because I feel like we've talked about the Justicas Simpson

706
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: mom James moment. I discussed if we should do an

707
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: episode on that. Yes, and that was when she performed

708
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: and she was wearing these high waisted jans and looked

709
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: absolutely normal by.

710
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 3: Yes, by any measure.

711
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: For the measures of that time of the early two thousands,

712
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: when we thought that made someone look like a fat, mom.

713
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: Literally headlines four weeks like covers of magazines about how

714
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: she was fat, which really blows my mind. Jessicas Simpson

715
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 2: was never fat by any objective standard.

716
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: But you actually have a real experience with Jessica Simpson

717
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: to some degree.

718
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,239
Speaker 2: So in the same way that I was saying that

719
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: I have met and spoken to Jessica Simpson.

720
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 4: I don't mean like you are close.

721
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, I mean I wish because I think

722
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: Jessica Simpson is fascinating. A lot of people don't know that,

723
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: even though she has not done a lot of acting

724
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: or singing, Jessica Simpson is a bajillionaire and she's.

725
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 4: A wildly successful business.

726
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 3: She's a wildly successful business. It's a fashion business.

727
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: She is one of the most successful celebrities ever to

728
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: launch a fashion business. And another thing people might not

729
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: know is that she has an incredibly high Q score,

730
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 2: which is a way in which celebrity popularity is measured

731
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 2: formula that's basically like, how many people like this person,

732
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 2: how many people don't like this person? And to have

733
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: a high Q score, it's not just that a lot

734
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: of people like you, but there's not very many people

735
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: who dislike you, and Jessica Simpson is at the top

736
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 2: of those charts. People just love her. They don't have

737
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 2: a lot of negative impressions of her. I think partially

738
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 2: because she's gone on to live a pretty quiet life

739
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 2: by any celebrity measure. And when we launched Katie Kirk's

740
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: talk show, we spent weeks and weeks trying to figure

741
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 2: out who our first guest should be, right, because you

742
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 2: want to come out of the gate.

743
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 4: Strong, Remind me what era this was in.

744
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: So the show launched in twenty twelve. It launched in September.

745
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 2: We started working on it in March, So there were

746
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: many months of planning that went into the first four

747
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: or five episodes. I mean, they was planning that went

748
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 2: into all of them. But those first few episodes, you

749
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: know you're going to get a lot of scrutiny. One

750
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 2: and as I've said, I think before we genuinely thought

751
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 2: we were launching the next Oprah show, Like we thought

752
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 2: this was going to be a juggernaut that was on

753
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: television for years. So we felt a lot of pressure

754
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 2: just as a team, and I think Katie felt a

755
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 2: lot of pressure for good reasons, to come out.

756
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 3: Of the gate really strong.

757
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 2: So eventually we landed on Jessica Simpson and Cheryl Crow,

758
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 2: and I produced the Jessica Simpson section and someone else

759
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 2: produced Cheryl Crow.

760
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 3: The thing about this that's relevant to.

761
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 2: The Mom Jeans part of the story is that Jessica

762
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 2: Simpson was coming on in her capacity as a representative

763
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 2: of Weight Watchers, which she had just signed on too,

764
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: so we were negotiating with her people but also the

765
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: weight Watchers people.

766
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 1: Had she signed on with weight Watchers in the wake

767
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: of the Mom Jeans incident or whatever you call it.

768
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if it was right after

769
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 2: the Mom Jeans, but that picture was in two thousand

770
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: and nine and.

771
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,399
Speaker 3: This was twenty twelve, right, so it was that long after.

772
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 3: I'm guessing that it was part of it.

773
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't imagine what she went through being

774
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 2: fat shamed in this incredibly public way. I just remember

775
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: it being on tabloid covers for months. So how we

776
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: were going to do this segment. She was going to

777
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: do a weight life reveal. Oh, so she was going

778
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 2: to come on the show. We were planning this for months,

779
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: and she was going to be in a bathing suit

780
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: and she was gonna wear a jacket, and then she

781
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 2: was gonna take off the jacket and there she was going.

782
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 3: To be slim Jessica Simmons.

783
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: Okay, but as we get closer and closer to the recording,

784
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 2: it becomes clear that she has not lost the weight.

785
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 2: And I don't know how much you know about weight

786
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 2: watcher's contracts. I happen to know a lot because of this.

787
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 3: They are paid.

788
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 2: To be a spokesperson, but then there are milestones they

789
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: have to hit to continue to make money. There's goals

790
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: they have to make for continued payments. So they are

791
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 2: really hopeful she's going to make the goal. But ultimately

792
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: she doesn't lose the amount of weight that was expected

793
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 2: of her to be able to do this reveal. So

794
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 2: they break this to us.

795
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 3: It's like a.

796
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: Crisis, Like I just remember wearing like, oh no, Jessica

797
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 2: Simpson hasn't lost enough weight to imagine people talking about

798
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 2: you in this way.

799
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 3: It's so crazy.

800
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 2: And finally they tell us, listen, she's gonna be able

801
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 2: to do a bathing suit. She just doesn't feel comfortable,

802
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: and so instead she comes and she's in this black dress.

803
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 2: That was when peplams were really popular, so it's like

804
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 2: this black dress with a little peplam at the skirt.

805
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 3: Honestly, she's dressed for like a funeral. I'm like, what's happening?

806
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 3: And she shows up and they're like, she's not in

807
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 3: a good headspace. Nobody talked to her, so like, I

808
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 3: have to tell the team that, like no one but me.

809
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 4: As well to wonder her.

810
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: And she comes in and you know, she's lovely and

811
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: she does a great job, but her weight loss reveal

812
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 2: is obviously like a little anti climactic.

813
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 3: In the end, she didn't lead the show. We led

814
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,479
Speaker 3: with Cheryl Crow from Studio one in New York. It's

815
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 3: the premiere of.

816
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: Katie Please Welcome, my dear friend Cheryl Crow, and.

817
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 2: She was the second segment, I think because of this shift,

818
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: and that was my Jessica Simpson story. I mean, it

819
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: really made me feel for her because I feel like

820
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 2: there's so much pressure, as we've talked about, to be thin,

821
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 2: but to have all these people fixating on whether or

822
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 2: not you've lost enough weight by like a certain timeframe, right.

823
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 2: And then this is the craziest part is we find

824
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: out not long after that the reason she didn't lose

825
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 2: the weight is because she was pregnant. A couple weeks later,

826
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 2: Oh my god, she was pregnant and.

827
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 3: Basically she had to pause her Weight Watchers deal while

828
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 3: she had a baby.

829
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

830
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 3: So, I mean, that is probably one of the wildest

831
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 3: stories I have.

832
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: Really is honestly so crazy and also maybe a good

833
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: place to end it.

834
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like we've gone through a lot today,

835
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,280
Speaker 2: and if people really love this, I'm sure we're willing

836
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 2: to do this again. But I don't know. These might

837
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 2: be my best stories. I don't know what else I

838
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 2: have for you.

839
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: We might have to just bury them away now and

840
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:54,280
Speaker 1: never repeat them again, Susie. Next week's episode was inspired

841
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: by a social media rabbit hole.

842
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 4: Can you tell us about it?

843
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 3: Yeah?

844
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 2: For the past few years, there's been this growing movement

845
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: on social media and support of the Menendez Brothers, who,

846
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 2: as you know, are the two Beverly Hills brothers convicted

847
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 2: of killing their parents in a case that was really

848
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: huge in the early nineties, and now there are a

849
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 2: bunch of fan accounts dedicated to them and their story

850
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 2: and arguing that they deserve a new trial. So I

851
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,919
Speaker 2: wanted to look into how that's happened, even though they've

852
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,479
Speaker 2: been in prison for thirty four years. It's a fascinating case,

853
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 2: so there's a lot to discuss.

854
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 3: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening.

855
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,919
Speaker 2: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking

856
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 2: about and want us to explore in a future episode?

857
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com or find

858
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 2: us on Instagram at in retropod.

859
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us

860
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you

861
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram,

862
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: which we may or may not delete.

863
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett

864
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 2: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books Feminist,

865
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 2: Fike Club, and This Is eighteen.

866
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media.

867
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our

868
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharan

869
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: Atia is our researcher and associate producer.

870
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 2: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our

871
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel.

872
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 2: Our artwork is from pentagraem Our mixing engineer is Amanda

873
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 2: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We are

874
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: your hosts Susie Bannaccarum.

875
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 1: And Jessica Bennett. We are also executive producers.

876
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 3: For even more.

877
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: Check out inretropod dot com.

878
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 4: See you next week.