1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:18,676 --> 00:00:21,876 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to House Calls. I'm Vivik Morphy and 3 00:00:21,956 --> 00:00:24,396 Speaker 2: I have the honor of serving as US Surgeon General. 4 00:00:25,596 --> 00:00:28,676 Speaker 2: I'd like to introduce you to doctor Lorie Santos, Professor 5 00:00:28,796 --> 00:00:32,156 Speaker 2: at Yale University and the creator of the revolutionary class 6 00:00:32,476 --> 00:00:37,076 Speaker 2: Psychology and the Good Life, better known as the Happiness Class. Today, 7 00:00:37,076 --> 00:00:39,396 Speaker 2: we'll be talking about happiness in the context of the 8 00:00:39,436 --> 00:00:44,076 Speaker 2: mental health crisis among you. This episode includes lessons on stress, 9 00:00:44,236 --> 00:00:48,396 Speaker 2: burnout and the practice of happiness. Hi, Laurie, Welcome to 10 00:00:48,396 --> 00:00:49,076 Speaker 2: the podcast. 11 00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:50,916 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for having me on the show. 12 00:00:51,116 --> 00:00:52,476 Speaker 2: I have so much time want to talk to you 13 00:00:52,556 --> 00:00:55,636 Speaker 2: about today, but I first just want to ask just 14 00:00:55,676 --> 00:00:59,156 Speaker 2: about your personal story, which is I find so fascinating 15 00:00:59,156 --> 00:01:02,996 Speaker 2: that you went from working on non human primates to 16 00:01:03,076 --> 00:01:06,756 Speaker 2: becoming an expert unhappiness, and I'm wondering if you could 17 00:01:06,756 --> 00:01:09,036 Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about how that happened. 18 00:01:09,316 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a kind of strange path, and so yeah, 19 00:01:11,716 --> 00:01:15,676 Speaker 1: I've been an academic psychologist for a very, very embarrassingly 20 00:01:15,756 --> 00:01:18,276 Speaker 1: long time. Most of the time I was really interested 21 00:01:18,316 --> 00:01:20,476 Speaker 1: in this question of what makes humans unique, what makes 22 00:01:20,556 --> 00:01:22,476 Speaker 1: us special? What are some of the ways that we 23 00:01:22,516 --> 00:01:24,676 Speaker 1: make sense of the world that no other creature does. 24 00:01:24,956 --> 00:01:28,556 Speaker 1: And I studied that question using monkeys, using non human primates. 25 00:01:29,116 --> 00:01:31,116 Speaker 1: But it was around this time, like you know, about 26 00:01:31,116 --> 00:01:32,916 Speaker 1: ten years ago, that I started getting more and more 27 00:01:32,956 --> 00:01:35,636 Speaker 1: involved in undergraduate student life and I took on this 28 00:01:35,716 --> 00:01:37,876 Speaker 1: new role on campus. I became a head of college 29 00:01:38,196 --> 00:01:40,996 Speaker 1: on Yelle's campus, which is this position where faculty get 30 00:01:40,996 --> 00:01:43,716 Speaker 1: to live with students in one of these undergraduate houses. 31 00:01:43,956 --> 00:01:46,116 Speaker 1: And it was just an amazing opportunity, right, I get 32 00:01:46,156 --> 00:01:49,276 Speaker 1: to see student life up close and personal. But what 33 00:01:49,316 --> 00:01:51,516 Speaker 1: was surprising was that I didn't like what I was seeing. 34 00:01:51,596 --> 00:01:53,876 Speaker 1: You know. I assumed college student life was like what 35 00:01:53,996 --> 00:01:55,676 Speaker 1: college life was like back you know, when I went 36 00:01:55,676 --> 00:01:58,476 Speaker 1: to school in the nineties, and it was just completely different. 37 00:01:58,516 --> 00:02:01,276 Speaker 1: You know. So many students were reporting feeling depressed and 38 00:02:01,356 --> 00:02:04,116 Speaker 1: anxious and lonely, as you know so well from your work, 39 00:02:04,476 --> 00:02:06,556 Speaker 1: and it just kind of wasn't what I was expecting, 40 00:02:06,676 --> 00:02:09,596 Speaker 1: and so I kind of wanted to do something about it. Right, 41 00:02:09,636 --> 00:02:11,956 Speaker 1: I'm like, living in this community with my students, I'm 42 00:02:11,996 --> 00:02:14,436 Speaker 1: like this benevolent faculty aunt who's supposed to take care 43 00:02:14,476 --> 00:02:16,796 Speaker 1: of them. And I realized, like we weren't addressing this 44 00:02:16,876 --> 00:02:19,116 Speaker 1: crisis of student mental health. So I kind of did 45 00:02:19,156 --> 00:02:22,356 Speaker 1: this sort of retraining in positive psychology and sort of 46 00:02:22,356 --> 00:02:24,956 Speaker 1: science of well being, all these evidence based strategies you 47 00:02:24,956 --> 00:02:26,996 Speaker 1: can use to feel better, and so I kind of 48 00:02:26,996 --> 00:02:29,796 Speaker 1: packaged it all together to develop a new class for students. 49 00:02:29,836 --> 00:02:32,436 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, forty or so students would take it, 50 00:02:32,476 --> 00:02:35,756 Speaker 1: but the first time I taught it back in twenty eighteen, 51 00:02:36,316 --> 00:02:38,996 Speaker 1: a quarter of the entire Yale student body decided to 52 00:02:39,036 --> 00:02:41,476 Speaker 1: take the class. Over. Over a thousand students showed up, 53 00:02:42,516 --> 00:02:44,676 Speaker 1: and that was sort of, you know, a logistical nightmare, 54 00:02:44,676 --> 00:02:46,996 Speaker 1: but it was also kind of humbling and cool, and 55 00:02:47,516 --> 00:02:49,476 Speaker 1: it showed me that students were voting with their feet. 56 00:02:49,516 --> 00:02:52,196 Speaker 1: They don't like this culture of feeling lonely and stressed 57 00:02:52,236 --> 00:02:54,596 Speaker 1: and anxious, and I think they really wanted some evidence 58 00:02:54,636 --> 00:02:57,316 Speaker 1: based ways that they could address some of these problems. 59 00:02:57,356 --> 00:03:00,236 Speaker 1: They were looking for solutions, and they wanted those solutions 60 00:03:00,316 --> 00:03:02,156 Speaker 1: to come from science and public health. 61 00:03:02,676 --> 00:03:05,556 Speaker 2: Well, Laurie, you and I both I know, are deeply 62 00:03:05,596 --> 00:03:08,236 Speaker 2: concerned about what's happening with young people in their mental 63 00:03:08,276 --> 00:03:12,156 Speaker 2: health these days the country, and I'm curious, I think 64 00:03:12,196 --> 00:03:15,076 Speaker 2: for people out there who may have seen the headlines, 65 00:03:15,116 --> 00:03:18,716 Speaker 2: but for whom it's not quite tangible. Y're sure, like, 66 00:03:18,756 --> 00:03:21,036 Speaker 2: what does this actually look like for kids to being crisis? 67 00:03:21,636 --> 00:03:24,076 Speaker 2: Can you paint a picture of what you've been seeing 68 00:03:24,316 --> 00:03:27,516 Speaker 2: on the campus and what you're observing the lives of 69 00:03:27,956 --> 00:03:29,956 Speaker 2: students in terms of how this mental health crisis is 70 00:03:29,956 --> 00:03:31,036 Speaker 2: manifesting in their lives. 71 00:03:31,196 --> 00:03:33,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'll start with some of the statistics, 72 00:03:33,116 --> 00:03:36,116 Speaker 1: because I think the statistics are pretty dire, right, you know, 73 00:03:36,156 --> 00:03:38,796 Speaker 1: according to these national college health surveys. So these aren't 74 00:03:38,836 --> 00:03:41,356 Speaker 1: just students at ivy League schools like yea, These are 75 00:03:41,356 --> 00:03:43,676 Speaker 1: students around the country and all kinds of different schools. 76 00:03:44,116 --> 00:03:46,676 Speaker 1: Right now, or at least in twenty nineteen, which is 77 00:03:46,716 --> 00:03:48,996 Speaker 1: the last kind of pre COVID data we had, you know, 78 00:03:49,036 --> 00:03:51,756 Speaker 1: over forty percent of college students report being too depressed 79 00:03:51,756 --> 00:03:54,436 Speaker 1: to function most days, Over sixty percent say that they're 80 00:03:54,436 --> 00:03:57,836 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly anxious, more than fifty percent say that they're very 81 00:03:57,876 --> 00:04:00,396 Speaker 1: lonely most of the time, and more than one in 82 00:04:00,436 --> 00:04:03,596 Speaker 1: ten has seriously considered suicide in the last twelve months. 83 00:04:04,316 --> 00:04:07,076 Speaker 1: You know. So this is what is happening nationally and 84 00:04:07,076 --> 00:04:08,436 Speaker 1: the way I would just see it on the ground 85 00:04:08,476 --> 00:04:11,676 Speaker 1: We're just students are just overwhelmed, you know, they're overwhelmed 86 00:04:11,676 --> 00:04:14,236 Speaker 1: by academics, they're overwhelmed by social stuff. I'd see a 87 00:04:14,316 --> 00:04:16,076 Speaker 1: student in the dining hall and be like, hey, how's 88 00:04:16,076 --> 00:04:18,036 Speaker 1: it going, and be like, Oh, if only I could 89 00:04:18,076 --> 00:04:19,676 Speaker 1: get to the end of the week, or if only 90 00:04:19,676 --> 00:04:21,356 Speaker 1: I could get to midterms. You know, they're kind of 91 00:04:21,356 --> 00:04:24,196 Speaker 1: fast forwarding this this rare and precious time they have 92 00:04:24,316 --> 00:04:26,876 Speaker 1: as young people. And those are the students who aren't 93 00:04:26,876 --> 00:04:29,516 Speaker 1: in crisis, right, you know, crisis really looks like students 94 00:04:29,516 --> 00:04:31,276 Speaker 1: who are unable to get out of bed because they 95 00:04:31,276 --> 00:04:34,876 Speaker 1: have panic attacks, or who are acutely suicidal, or who 96 00:04:34,956 --> 00:04:37,756 Speaker 1: have everything going, you know, especially in a school like Yale. 97 00:04:37,756 --> 00:04:41,036 Speaker 1: They're students who are academically achieving, but in terms of 98 00:04:41,076 --> 00:04:43,836 Speaker 1: their mental health, they're falling apart. And so I think, 99 00:04:43,916 --> 00:04:46,156 Speaker 1: you know, we really need to as you know all 100 00:04:46,196 --> 00:04:48,196 Speaker 1: and as you've discussed yourself, I mean, I think we 101 00:04:48,276 --> 00:04:50,916 Speaker 1: really need to think seriously about addressing this crisis, not 102 00:04:51,036 --> 00:04:55,036 Speaker 1: just because our young people's mental health matters, but as educators, 103 00:04:55,036 --> 00:04:57,916 Speaker 1: we're not really doing our job when these are the 104 00:04:57,916 --> 00:05:00,116 Speaker 1: statistics on the ground, Like as a college educator, if 105 00:05:00,116 --> 00:05:02,396 Speaker 1: I'm trying to teach a psychology class or you know, 106 00:05:02,436 --> 00:05:04,796 Speaker 1: some pre med class, Like, my students aren't learning if 107 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:07,396 Speaker 1: forty percent of them are too depressed to function most 108 00:05:07,476 --> 00:05:11,556 Speaker 1: days and sixty percent expence or experiencing overwhelming anxiety, Right, 109 00:05:11,556 --> 00:05:13,116 Speaker 1: they're just not learning in the way I think we 110 00:05:13,556 --> 00:05:15,556 Speaker 1: had assumed for a very long time that they were. 111 00:05:16,196 --> 00:05:19,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean those stats and stories are so powerful 112 00:05:19,876 --> 00:05:22,276 Speaker 2: and so disturbing, Laurie, I mean that tells I think 113 00:05:22,316 --> 00:05:24,756 Speaker 2: anyone out there who's listening is wonder it is this 114 00:05:24,836 --> 00:05:27,516 Speaker 2: more the exception or you know, only something that affects 115 00:05:27,556 --> 00:05:30,396 Speaker 2: a small group of people. The answer is no. I mean, 116 00:05:30,396 --> 00:05:33,996 Speaker 2: this is sadly becoming the norm, you know, if anything, 117 00:05:34,156 --> 00:05:37,356 Speaker 2: and affecting in some cases a majority of young people 118 00:05:37,356 --> 00:05:40,516 Speaker 2: out there. So this is a this is a profound crisis, 119 00:05:40,596 --> 00:05:43,996 Speaker 2: and it's affecting our kids. You know, as you think 120 00:05:44,036 --> 00:05:46,556 Speaker 2: about this journey, obviously weren't a bad place now, But 121 00:05:47,356 --> 00:05:49,276 Speaker 2: how did we get here? What's your sense of the 122 00:05:49,356 --> 00:05:51,236 Speaker 2: road that led to the current moment? 123 00:05:51,396 --> 00:05:53,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think there's no It'd be nice 124 00:05:53,196 --> 00:05:54,916 Speaker 1: if there was like a you know, a red herring 125 00:05:55,036 --> 00:05:56,756 Speaker 1: of one thing we could point to and be like, oh, 126 00:05:56,796 --> 00:05:58,476 Speaker 1: this is the factor, Like, let's get rid of it. 127 00:05:58,836 --> 00:06:00,636 Speaker 1: I think it's a variety of things. I mean, I think, 128 00:06:00,996 --> 00:06:04,116 Speaker 1: you know, we have a very different relationship with technology 129 00:06:04,236 --> 00:06:07,076 Speaker 1: than we did when you and I were in college. Right, 130 00:06:07,316 --> 00:06:10,636 Speaker 1: this is a generation of students who really can't shut off. 131 00:06:10,956 --> 00:06:12,916 Speaker 1: You know. I told this this funny story to students. 132 00:06:12,916 --> 00:06:14,996 Speaker 1: One of my students was in their dorm room and 133 00:06:14,996 --> 00:06:18,196 Speaker 1: they're like, you know, my title is hawk Santo's head 134 00:06:18,196 --> 00:06:19,836 Speaker 1: of college Santo's. They'd be like, hack Santo's. There's a 135 00:06:19,916 --> 00:06:22,276 Speaker 1: weird number on my wall, Like what is that? And 136 00:06:22,316 --> 00:06:24,356 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that's the phone number. You know, 137 00:06:24,356 --> 00:06:27,196 Speaker 1: people used to call your phone in your room. And 138 00:06:27,236 --> 00:06:28,956 Speaker 1: the students said, well, how could they call me when 139 00:06:28,956 --> 00:06:30,476 Speaker 1: I wasn't in the room. And I was like, well 140 00:06:31,276 --> 00:06:33,356 Speaker 1: they couldn't. Like you could just leave, like you could 141 00:06:33,396 --> 00:06:36,836 Speaker 1: walk away from your social expectations. And I think when 142 00:06:36,836 --> 00:06:40,036 Speaker 1: you think about that difference, that students feel like they're 143 00:06:40,116 --> 00:06:42,796 Speaker 1: on all the time, onto their friend group, onto the 144 00:06:42,796 --> 00:06:45,876 Speaker 1: people they're performing with on social media, onto just being 145 00:06:45,876 --> 00:06:48,156 Speaker 1: connected to all the scary stuff in the news all 146 00:06:48,196 --> 00:06:52,116 Speaker 1: the time. Right, that alone is a recipe for anxiety. 147 00:06:52,116 --> 00:06:54,276 Speaker 1: It's a recipe for kind of not feeling like you 148 00:06:54,276 --> 00:06:56,276 Speaker 1: can ever shut off right, And so I think I 149 00:06:56,276 --> 00:06:58,596 Speaker 1: think we really need to take a solid look at 150 00:06:59,036 --> 00:07:02,116 Speaker 1: our relationship with technology. And it's partly social media, but 151 00:07:02,196 --> 00:07:04,396 Speaker 1: I think it's broader than that. You know, even a 152 00:07:04,396 --> 00:07:07,676 Speaker 1: student who's not really on TikTok or on Instagram or 153 00:07:07,716 --> 00:07:09,996 Speaker 1: so on, you know, there can to their parents who 154 00:07:09,996 --> 00:07:12,076 Speaker 1: could text them at a moment's notice. They're connected to 155 00:07:12,116 --> 00:07:15,076 Speaker 1: WhatsApp when they're kind of connecting with your friend group 156 00:07:15,116 --> 00:07:18,356 Speaker 1: and things like that. So I think that's a big change. 157 00:07:18,356 --> 00:07:21,076 Speaker 1: And if you plot just the number of smartphones that 158 00:07:21,156 --> 00:07:25,076 Speaker 1: students tended to have alongside these you know, awful mental 159 00:07:25,116 --> 00:07:27,796 Speaker 1: health statistics, you see a really robust correlation. And we 160 00:07:27,876 --> 00:07:31,356 Speaker 1: know correlation isn't causation, but my sense is that there's 161 00:07:31,356 --> 00:07:34,076 Speaker 1: something there we need to analyze. I think there's also 162 00:07:34,196 --> 00:07:37,316 Speaker 1: been some interesting and important structural changes to the way 163 00:07:37,916 --> 00:07:41,076 Speaker 1: childhood and education works. You know, I think childhood has 164 00:07:41,116 --> 00:07:43,516 Speaker 1: become much more of an achievement culture. You know, in 165 00:07:43,556 --> 00:07:45,836 Speaker 1: the years since you and I were in college, where 166 00:07:46,436 --> 00:07:50,036 Speaker 1: even from grade school students are starting to worry about grades. 167 00:07:50,076 --> 00:07:52,436 Speaker 1: You know, we have words like college readiness and things 168 00:07:52,476 --> 00:07:54,596 Speaker 1: like that, and those things are important. You know, we 169 00:07:54,636 --> 00:07:57,276 Speaker 1: want students to learn, but I think we've moved much 170 00:07:57,316 --> 00:08:01,556 Speaker 1: more away from internal rewards like learning and the benefits 171 00:08:01,556 --> 00:08:04,636 Speaker 1: you get from education, to things like getting into a 172 00:08:04,636 --> 00:08:07,676 Speaker 1: perfect school and the scores you get on exams and 173 00:08:07,716 --> 00:08:10,756 Speaker 1: so on. And I think that focus on external rewards 174 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:13,556 Speaker 1: has set students up for, you know, competing in really 175 00:08:13,596 --> 00:08:16,876 Speaker 1: individualistic ways that lead them astray from the things that 176 00:08:16,956 --> 00:08:19,916 Speaker 1: really matter for their mental health, things like social connection, 177 00:08:20,116 --> 00:08:22,716 Speaker 1: things like helping others, things like having a sense of 178 00:08:22,756 --> 00:08:25,676 Speaker 1: meaning and purpose that's beyond yourself. And so I think 179 00:08:25,676 --> 00:08:28,516 Speaker 1: those structural changes in the way we think about education 180 00:08:29,156 --> 00:08:32,156 Speaker 1: and what students are trying to achieve, those things actually 181 00:08:32,156 --> 00:08:33,796 Speaker 1: matter a lot, and we need to look at those 182 00:08:33,876 --> 00:08:36,436 Speaker 1: really carefully if we're going to think about addressing this 183 00:08:36,476 --> 00:08:37,516 Speaker 1: mental health crisis. 184 00:08:38,116 --> 00:08:40,076 Speaker 2: So let's dig into that for a second, because I 185 00:08:40,156 --> 00:08:44,516 Speaker 2: like what you're talking about regarding internal versus external rewards, 186 00:08:44,676 --> 00:08:48,716 Speaker 2: or more so as priorities. You know that we ask 187 00:08:49,236 --> 00:08:51,116 Speaker 2: young people to train their minds on and then the 188 00:08:51,316 --> 00:08:53,436 Speaker 2: chase for years and years and years some cases the 189 00:08:53,476 --> 00:08:56,276 Speaker 2: rest of their life. And I think this is where 190 00:08:56,276 --> 00:08:58,116 Speaker 2: I think it's so interesting that. You know, people talk 191 00:08:58,156 --> 00:09:00,436 Speaker 2: about you as the happiness professor, and I know that 192 00:09:00,476 --> 00:09:02,996 Speaker 2: happiness has been your focus. But a lot of these 193 00:09:03,036 --> 00:09:06,716 Speaker 2: priorities are part of a narrative that tells us that 194 00:09:06,796 --> 00:09:10,796 Speaker 2: if you achieve those extra markers, right, whether it is, 195 00:09:10,996 --> 00:09:13,836 Speaker 2: you know, winning certain competitions, getting certain grades, getting to 196 00:09:13,836 --> 00:09:16,796 Speaker 2: certain school, getting fancy jobs, making a certain amount of money, 197 00:09:17,196 --> 00:09:21,716 Speaker 2: becoming famous, whatever the external markers are, the story goes 198 00:09:21,716 --> 00:09:24,396 Speaker 2: that if you achieve those, you will be happy. But 199 00:09:24,436 --> 00:09:28,116 Speaker 2: what is the data actually tell us about whether that's 200 00:09:28,156 --> 00:09:28,676 Speaker 2: true or not? 201 00:09:28,876 --> 00:09:31,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the data are really clear on this one, 202 00:09:31,596 --> 00:09:35,036 Speaker 1: which is that our circumstances don't necessarily make us happy. 203 00:09:35,236 --> 00:09:37,316 Speaker 1: I think the one caveat to that is that if 204 00:09:37,356 --> 00:09:39,876 Speaker 1: you're in really dire circumstances, right, if you don't have 205 00:09:39,996 --> 00:09:41,956 Speaker 1: enough money to put food on the table, if your 206 00:09:42,156 --> 00:09:45,556 Speaker 1: health is terrible, you know, those are circumstances that if 207 00:09:45,596 --> 00:09:48,436 Speaker 1: you change those, of course they'll positively affect your well being. 208 00:09:48,956 --> 00:09:51,796 Speaker 1: But you know, if you're not living in poverty, the 209 00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:54,356 Speaker 1: results seem to suggest that getting more money isn't necessarily 210 00:09:54,396 --> 00:09:55,796 Speaker 1: going to help you, or it's definitely not going to 211 00:09:55,836 --> 00:09:58,436 Speaker 1: help as much as we predict it well. The same 212 00:09:58,516 --> 00:10:01,396 Speaker 1: is true for grades and accolades. One of the statistics 213 00:10:01,436 --> 00:10:03,636 Speaker 1: I share with my students is that there is a 214 00:10:03,676 --> 00:10:07,036 Speaker 1: correlation between high school grade point average and well being, 215 00:10:07,356 --> 00:10:10,036 Speaker 1: but it's a negative correlation. That mean that means as 216 00:10:10,116 --> 00:10:13,196 Speaker 1: high school GPA goes up, your overall well being goes down. 217 00:10:13,876 --> 00:10:16,516 Speaker 1: You also see a negative correlation between high school GPA 218 00:10:16,756 --> 00:10:19,756 Speaker 1: and self esteem and high school GPA and optimism. Right, 219 00:10:19,796 --> 00:10:22,196 Speaker 1: it's not what we predict, but you know, they're just 220 00:10:22,556 --> 00:10:25,076 Speaker 1: student achievement is not leading to the kind of well 221 00:10:25,116 --> 00:10:28,396 Speaker 1: being effects we expect. And you might say, well, you 222 00:10:28,436 --> 00:10:30,436 Speaker 1: know that that might be true in school, but maybe 223 00:10:30,476 --> 00:10:32,596 Speaker 1: you know once they graduate from college, once they get 224 00:10:32,596 --> 00:10:34,436 Speaker 1: into the good school, you know in the future they'll 225 00:10:34,476 --> 00:10:36,916 Speaker 1: be much better off. But the data don't seem to 226 00:10:36,956 --> 00:10:39,796 Speaker 1: bear that out either. In cases where we have good data. Again, 227 00:10:40,036 --> 00:10:43,196 Speaker 1: people's great circumstances don't tend to lead to these well 228 00:10:43,196 --> 00:10:45,916 Speaker 1: being effects. The things that matter for well being are 229 00:10:45,956 --> 00:10:49,276 Speaker 1: the things that our students are often not prioritizing. They're 230 00:10:49,316 --> 00:10:50,996 Speaker 1: the kind of things that get lost in this sort 231 00:10:51,036 --> 00:10:54,236 Speaker 1: of opportunity cost struggle that we're sort of setting students 232 00:10:54,316 --> 00:10:57,356 Speaker 1: up for. They're things like social connection, things like just 233 00:10:57,356 --> 00:11:01,276 Speaker 1: getting enough sleep and healthy habits like exercise. They're things 234 00:11:01,316 --> 00:11:03,916 Speaker 1: like doing things for others and having a sense of purpose, 235 00:11:04,636 --> 00:11:07,316 Speaker 1: not just kind of individually competing for yourself, but really 236 00:11:07,356 --> 00:11:11,636 Speaker 1: having some bigger goal that you're doing something for your community. Again, 237 00:11:11,676 --> 00:11:14,116 Speaker 1: these I think are things that we've lost out on 238 00:11:14,196 --> 00:11:16,276 Speaker 1: in the norms that we set students up for today. 239 00:11:16,316 --> 00:11:17,956 Speaker 1: There are things that have kind of gone by the 240 00:11:17,996 --> 00:11:20,076 Speaker 1: wayside and the structures we've set up in our kind 241 00:11:20,076 --> 00:11:22,796 Speaker 1: of early educational system. But those are the things that 242 00:11:22,836 --> 00:11:24,876 Speaker 1: the research sug just really matter for happiness. 243 00:11:25,276 --> 00:11:27,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's incredibly powerful to hear because I do 244 00:11:27,796 --> 00:11:31,396 Speaker 2: think that young people, when I talked to them across 245 00:11:31,436 --> 00:11:34,276 Speaker 2: the country, a lot of them have actually really impressive 246 00:11:34,276 --> 00:11:38,316 Speaker 2: and profound insight into the structure in which they're operating 247 00:11:38,316 --> 00:11:40,556 Speaker 2: as structure and a culture that are asking them to 248 00:11:40,676 --> 00:11:45,356 Speaker 2: chase certain benchmarks, if you will, of achievement with the promise, 249 00:11:45,916 --> 00:11:48,276 Speaker 2: even if it's in the losory promise of happiness that 250 00:11:48,316 --> 00:11:52,156 Speaker 2: comes thereafter. But they're not happy necessarily doing that, And 251 00:11:52,236 --> 00:11:56,116 Speaker 2: so you know, I think about this from tube respects. 252 00:11:56,156 --> 00:11:57,916 Speaker 2: One is if they're not happy, they don't want it, 253 00:11:57,956 --> 00:12:01,836 Speaker 2: where's it coming from. Is it coming from parents, Is 254 00:12:01,876 --> 00:12:04,596 Speaker 2: it coming from media? Is it coming from you know, 255 00:12:04,956 --> 00:12:08,116 Speaker 2: some other you know, sort of messaging element in society 256 00:12:08,116 --> 00:12:09,556 Speaker 2: that's selling people this is which you have to do. 257 00:12:10,236 --> 00:12:12,596 Speaker 2: But what's your sense of what is driving that culture 258 00:12:13,276 --> 00:12:15,756 Speaker 2: of achievement, even if it's at the expense of happiness. 259 00:12:16,036 --> 00:12:17,796 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there are a couple of factors. 260 00:12:17,796 --> 00:12:21,436 Speaker 1: It's interesting to look at this historically. There's a former 261 00:12:21,476 --> 00:12:24,556 Speaker 1: Stanford gene Julie Lithcott Jims, who's looked at this in 262 00:12:24,876 --> 00:12:27,436 Speaker 1: a lot of detail, and what she talks about is 263 00:12:27,476 --> 00:12:29,836 Speaker 1: like a lot of changes that happened to education in 264 00:12:29,956 --> 00:12:32,396 Speaker 1: the in the kind of eighties and nineties that might 265 00:12:32,396 --> 00:12:34,076 Speaker 1: have led to this. One of the big ones was 266 00:12:34,436 --> 00:12:37,116 Speaker 1: that changes to this sort of US News and World 267 00:12:37,156 --> 00:12:40,236 Speaker 1: Report kind of scoring of different colleges. Right before, it 268 00:12:40,276 --> 00:12:42,396 Speaker 1: was kind of like, you know, go to college, that's great. 269 00:12:42,756 --> 00:12:44,876 Speaker 1: Now there's like rankings, you can kind of win or 270 00:12:44,996 --> 00:12:47,916 Speaker 1: lose the college game. And I think parents pick up 271 00:12:47,956 --> 00:12:49,836 Speaker 1: on that, students pick up on that. Right you know, 272 00:12:49,876 --> 00:12:52,516 Speaker 1: there's this idea that there are the kind of haves 273 00:12:52,516 --> 00:12:54,796 Speaker 1: and that have nots when it comes to education now, 274 00:12:55,196 --> 00:12:58,036 Speaker 1: and that feels really different. I think there's also been 275 00:12:58,116 --> 00:13:00,276 Speaker 1: changes in terms of who can go to college in 276 00:13:00,276 --> 00:13:04,276 Speaker 1: incredibly positive ways. Right you know, any amazing student you 277 00:13:04,276 --> 00:13:06,156 Speaker 1: know can go to Yale right now, you know, YO 278 00:13:06,236 --> 00:13:09,476 Speaker 1: will provide a massive financial aid package. It's just fantaststic, 279 00:13:10,116 --> 00:13:12,996 Speaker 1: But the meritocracy means that, like the spoils of the 280 00:13:13,036 --> 00:13:15,036 Speaker 1: war become large. You know, this is where I kind 281 00:13:15,036 --> 00:13:17,836 Speaker 1: of tie back to my roots studying animals. You see 282 00:13:17,836 --> 00:13:20,396 Speaker 1: in animals these impressive games that when you know, the 283 00:13:20,436 --> 00:13:23,116 Speaker 1: spoils go up, the competition rises. You see this kind 284 00:13:23,156 --> 00:13:25,636 Speaker 1: of arms race in terms of how they invest in, 285 00:13:25,636 --> 00:13:28,396 Speaker 1: how much they compete. And I think we've kind of 286 00:13:28,396 --> 00:13:31,516 Speaker 1: stuck our students into this arms race of competing for 287 00:13:31,556 --> 00:13:34,556 Speaker 1: these things, and the competition begins really early, and what 288 00:13:34,596 --> 00:13:38,116 Speaker 1: they're sacrificing is all the stuff that we know matters 289 00:13:38,116 --> 00:13:42,236 Speaker 1: for happiness again, sleep, social connection, being present, you know, 290 00:13:42,356 --> 00:13:47,156 Speaker 1: being mindful, taking breaks, what social scientists call time affluence, 291 00:13:47,236 --> 00:13:49,436 Speaker 1: just the sense that you have some free time. You 292 00:13:49,556 --> 00:13:51,876 Speaker 1: think of our poor, overscheduled kids and just all the 293 00:13:51,916 --> 00:13:54,596 Speaker 1: stuff we pack in for them. And I think, you know, again, 294 00:13:54,636 --> 00:13:57,156 Speaker 1: I think parents did this. Parents kind of focused on 295 00:13:57,196 --> 00:13:59,996 Speaker 1: these things out of love for their children, right, they 296 00:14:00,036 --> 00:14:02,516 Speaker 1: want their children to succeed, They want their children ultimately 297 00:14:02,556 --> 00:14:05,276 Speaker 1: to be happy. But we have these misconceptions about the 298 00:14:05,396 --> 00:14:07,556 Speaker 1: kinds of things that really matter for happiness, and we 299 00:14:07,596 --> 00:14:10,716 Speaker 1: set up our structures using those misconceptions. And I think 300 00:14:11,076 --> 00:14:12,916 Speaker 1: now that we understand the signs of this stuff better, 301 00:14:12,956 --> 00:14:15,156 Speaker 1: I think we can start questioning some of those structures 302 00:14:15,156 --> 00:14:17,516 Speaker 1: and trying to think about whether there are some changes 303 00:14:17,556 --> 00:14:20,516 Speaker 1: we need to make. It's time to take a short break, 304 00:14:20,676 --> 00:14:22,796 Speaker 1: but there'll be more of my conversation with doctor V. 305 00:14:22,876 --> 00:14:31,276 Speaker 1: Big Marty in a moment. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, welcome 306 00:14:31,316 --> 00:14:33,916 Speaker 1: back to my chat with the US Surgeon General, doctor V. 307 00:14:33,996 --> 00:14:35,836 Speaker 1: Big Marty. 308 00:14:35,916 --> 00:14:38,196 Speaker 2: You know, in your course on happiness, I feel like 309 00:14:38,236 --> 00:14:41,116 Speaker 2: you're it seems like there are two elements of the course, right. 310 00:14:41,156 --> 00:14:43,476 Speaker 2: You're teaching people about the science of happiness, what leads 311 00:14:43,476 --> 00:14:46,396 Speaker 2: to and influences our happiness. But you're also teaching them 312 00:14:46,396 --> 00:14:48,756 Speaker 2: about the science and art of behavior change. Right, Like, 313 00:14:48,796 --> 00:14:51,676 Speaker 2: once we understand that, how would we actually change our behaviors? 314 00:14:51,956 --> 00:14:53,596 Speaker 2: Just gosh, one of the toughest things to do, right, 315 00:14:53,916 --> 00:14:57,076 Speaker 2: but so important. And I'm curious, Like for folks out 316 00:14:57,076 --> 00:14:59,476 Speaker 2: there who are listening who recognize that there may be 317 00:14:59,476 --> 00:15:01,796 Speaker 2: a happiness gap in their life, a gap that they 318 00:15:01,796 --> 00:15:05,956 Speaker 2: want to close, how should they think about what kind 319 00:15:05,956 --> 00:15:09,396 Speaker 2: of activities may in fact help them increase happiness, and 320 00:15:09,436 --> 00:15:12,036 Speaker 2: then how can they change your lives to actually make 321 00:15:12,436 --> 00:15:15,396 Speaker 2: those activities part of their life. Because from one thing 322 00:15:15,476 --> 00:15:17,996 Speaker 2: is everything you've written before and spoken before that I've 323 00:15:17,996 --> 00:15:21,996 Speaker 2: listened to. You're very realistic about telling people that this 324 00:15:22,116 --> 00:15:25,036 Speaker 2: isn't a simple, you know, flip of the switch. This 325 00:15:25,156 --> 00:15:27,796 Speaker 2: isn't just an app that you sign up for, It's 326 00:15:27,836 --> 00:15:31,236 Speaker 2: not a one time activity. But this is it's hard work, 327 00:15:31,316 --> 00:15:33,796 Speaker 2: you know, to build a life that truly contributes to 328 00:15:33,916 --> 00:15:34,956 Speaker 2: and supports happiness. 329 00:15:35,036 --> 00:15:37,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think I think the first important 330 00:15:37,116 --> 00:15:40,236 Speaker 1: insight is to recognize that it's possible. I mean, there's 331 00:15:40,316 --> 00:15:42,996 Speaker 1: there's just tons of data that if you can change 332 00:15:43,036 --> 00:15:45,916 Speaker 1: your behaviors, if you can change your mindsets, you will 333 00:15:45,956 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 1: see significant increases in happiness. Right, And again, I think 334 00:15:49,716 --> 00:15:52,116 Speaker 1: it's worth kind of qualifying that that doesn't mean you 335 00:15:52,156 --> 00:15:54,436 Speaker 1: go from like zero on a happiness scale to ten. 336 00:15:54,916 --> 00:15:58,076 Speaker 1: But if you really take seriously these kinds of strategies 337 00:15:58,076 --> 00:16:00,156 Speaker 1: and you engage with it, you know you can go 338 00:16:00,196 --> 00:16:02,556 Speaker 1: from a six to a seven. You know, on average, 339 00:16:02,556 --> 00:16:04,756 Speaker 1: students who take my course, for example, go up about 340 00:16:04,756 --> 00:16:07,516 Speaker 1: a point on a standard ten point well being scale. 341 00:16:07,956 --> 00:16:10,436 Speaker 1: And that's significant, right, Like that matters a lot. That 342 00:16:10,476 --> 00:16:12,196 Speaker 1: can get you out of a dark place if you're 343 00:16:12,196 --> 00:16:14,276 Speaker 1: feeling in a dark place. So I think that's thing 344 00:16:14,316 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 1: number one is to recognize that it works. The second 345 00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:19,676 Speaker 1: is to try to figure out the kinds of strategies 346 00:16:19,676 --> 00:16:22,556 Speaker 1: that really do positively affect your happiness. And again, it's 347 00:16:22,556 --> 00:16:24,716 Speaker 1: not what we think. We think we have to change 348 00:16:24,716 --> 00:16:26,876 Speaker 1: our job or you know, make some incredible change in 349 00:16:26,916 --> 00:16:29,556 Speaker 1: our finances or things like that, and for many people 350 00:16:29,596 --> 00:16:32,756 Speaker 1: it's not that. For many people, it's for example, getting 351 00:16:32,796 --> 00:16:34,836 Speaker 1: in more social connection, you know, something I know you've 352 00:16:34,876 --> 00:16:37,396 Speaker 1: talked about a lot. You know, I really wish that 353 00:16:37,676 --> 00:16:39,876 Speaker 1: you know, your office in addition to kind of having 354 00:16:39,916 --> 00:16:42,676 Speaker 1: the you know, recommendations for how much exercise people should 355 00:16:42,716 --> 00:16:44,356 Speaker 1: get in a day, and you know, how many whole 356 00:16:44,356 --> 00:16:48,036 Speaker 1: grains or whatever, like how many minutes of meaningful conversation 357 00:16:48,156 --> 00:16:50,516 Speaker 1: we should have you know, every single day, right, you 358 00:16:50,516 --> 00:16:52,556 Speaker 1: know how many people we should reach out to? Right, 359 00:16:52,716 --> 00:16:55,836 Speaker 1: just kind of like standard ways that we can in 360 00:16:56,116 --> 00:16:58,516 Speaker 1: really simple forms just get a little bit more connection 361 00:16:58,596 --> 00:17:01,356 Speaker 1: in our lives. That's I think, honestly, if you really 362 00:17:01,356 --> 00:17:03,236 Speaker 1: want to increase your happiness, that's like one of the 363 00:17:03,276 --> 00:17:05,156 Speaker 1: fastest ways to do it is just to reach out 364 00:17:05,156 --> 00:17:07,916 Speaker 1: to other people and connect. Another behavior that we know 365 00:17:07,996 --> 00:17:10,476 Speaker 1: matters for happiness, you know, of tails with our physical health, 366 00:17:10,476 --> 00:17:12,636 Speaker 1: which is just getting a little bit more asleep, right, 367 00:17:12,716 --> 00:17:14,276 Speaker 1: getting a little bit more sleep in a little bit 368 00:17:14,276 --> 00:17:16,796 Speaker 1: of exercise. I mean, one of my favorite studies that 369 00:17:16,836 --> 00:17:18,996 Speaker 1: I share with students shows that you get a half 370 00:17:19,036 --> 00:17:22,076 Speaker 1: hour of cardio exercise a day that's as effective at 371 00:17:22,076 --> 00:17:26,036 Speaker 1: treating depression as some antidepression medications. You know, just a 372 00:17:26,236 --> 00:17:28,476 Speaker 1: half hour every day of cardio, right, if you're not 373 00:17:28,516 --> 00:17:30,876 Speaker 1: doing that normally, And so I think we need to 374 00:17:30,916 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 1: just kind of remember that these behaviors are powerful. And 375 00:17:33,356 --> 00:17:35,676 Speaker 1: one of the behaviors that can be powerful for happiness 376 00:17:35,756 --> 00:17:38,556 Speaker 1: is also not doing anything. You know, this idea of 377 00:17:38,596 --> 00:17:41,636 Speaker 1: time affluence, right, like not scheduling actually getting rest in 378 00:17:42,396 --> 00:17:44,516 Speaker 1: it can be a powerful way to kind of free 379 00:17:44,556 --> 00:17:46,716 Speaker 1: our schedule and give ourselves a little bit of a break. 380 00:17:46,756 --> 00:17:50,116 Speaker 1: So those are behaviors we can engage in. What happiness 381 00:17:50,156 --> 00:17:53,276 Speaker 1: also can come from our mindsets, right, like literally shifting 382 00:17:53,276 --> 00:17:54,956 Speaker 1: our mindset. You know, we talked about this a little 383 00:17:54,956 --> 00:17:58,916 Speaker 1: bit about you know, maybe parents shifting their forms of anxiety. 384 00:17:59,076 --> 00:18:01,116 Speaker 1: I think you can also shift your mindset in terms 385 00:18:01,116 --> 00:18:03,916 Speaker 1: of paying attention to the positives out there lots of 386 00:18:03,956 --> 00:18:07,076 Speaker 1: evidence that paying attention to the things you're thankful for, 387 00:18:07,196 --> 00:18:10,236 Speaker 1: or getting a kind of mindset of gratitude matter hard 388 00:18:10,276 --> 00:18:12,356 Speaker 1: to do in this day and age where we have, 389 00:18:12,436 --> 00:18:15,396 Speaker 1: you know, twenty four seven news cycles and algorithms that 390 00:18:15,436 --> 00:18:18,676 Speaker 1: point us to the most outrageous, most negative thing. You know, 391 00:18:18,676 --> 00:18:21,156 Speaker 1: it's harder to train your brain towards things that are positive. 392 00:18:21,196 --> 00:18:24,276 Speaker 1: But the evidence suggests that gratitude can make us not 393 00:18:24,396 --> 00:18:27,796 Speaker 1: just improve our overall happiness levels, but it can also 394 00:18:27,836 --> 00:18:30,996 Speaker 1: improve our physical health. You know, there's evidence that grateful 395 00:18:30,996 --> 00:18:34,236 Speaker 1: people sleep better, for example, Right, and so a mindset 396 00:18:34,316 --> 00:18:36,556 Speaker 1: of gratitude are powerful, But then also a mindset of 397 00:18:36,716 --> 00:18:40,436 Speaker 1: I think compassion, right. I think we believe that the 398 00:18:40,596 --> 00:18:43,036 Speaker 1: right way to live a life is to push ourselves 399 00:18:43,036 --> 00:18:46,276 Speaker 1: and constantly be going for these external rewards and going 400 00:18:46,356 --> 00:18:48,836 Speaker 1: after these kinds of things. But there's lots of evidence 401 00:18:48,876 --> 00:18:52,196 Speaker 1: that giving yourself some grace, giving yourself a break not 402 00:18:52,236 --> 00:18:54,956 Speaker 1: only feels better in terms of happiness, but it might 403 00:18:54,996 --> 00:18:57,756 Speaker 1: be the path towards getting you towards those other goals 404 00:18:57,756 --> 00:19:00,276 Speaker 1: that you have otherwise, because it means you're not beating 405 00:19:00,316 --> 00:19:02,636 Speaker 1: yourself up as much. And so yeah, I think I 406 00:19:02,636 --> 00:19:05,116 Speaker 1: think finding ways to get in these behaviors and these 407 00:19:05,156 --> 00:19:08,316 Speaker 1: mindsets are important. The evidence suggests it really will improve 408 00:19:08,316 --> 00:19:11,436 Speaker 1: your happiness. But like all behavioral changes, it's going to 409 00:19:11,516 --> 00:19:14,876 Speaker 1: take you know, some work, right, and I think recognizing 410 00:19:14,916 --> 00:19:17,196 Speaker 1: that it's work, recognizing that it's the kind of thing 411 00:19:17,196 --> 00:19:20,516 Speaker 1: you need to do every day, you know, just like exercise, 412 00:19:20,676 --> 00:19:23,236 Speaker 1: just like eating healthy. I think that's the framing of 413 00:19:23,276 --> 00:19:26,276 Speaker 1: happiness that we need to sort of take on. I think, 414 00:19:26,356 --> 00:19:28,676 Speaker 1: you know, too often we fall for the maybe maybe 415 00:19:28,676 --> 00:19:30,996 Speaker 1: it's Disney messed us up, this notion of like happily 416 00:19:30,996 --> 00:19:32,796 Speaker 1: ever after that well, you know, get this one thing 417 00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:35,476 Speaker 1: and then we'll be happily ever after. But that's that's 418 00:19:35,556 --> 00:19:38,276 Speaker 1: not how it works. My Harvard colleague Dan Gilbert is 419 00:19:38,316 --> 00:19:40,996 Speaker 1: fond of saying happiness happily ever after only works if 420 00:19:41,036 --> 00:19:43,116 Speaker 1: you have three more minutes to live. You know, it's 421 00:19:43,196 --> 00:19:44,396 Speaker 1: just not how happiness works. 422 00:19:47,116 --> 00:19:50,116 Speaker 2: Well, it is a a constant effort, but as you mentioned, 423 00:19:50,116 --> 00:19:52,196 Speaker 2: it can be a fruitful effort and one that can 424 00:19:52,236 --> 00:19:55,556 Speaker 2: really return dividends. And what struck me about some of 425 00:19:55,596 --> 00:20:00,036 Speaker 2: the measures you were speaking to was the relative simplicity 426 00:20:00,156 --> 00:20:01,956 Speaker 2: of these measures. You didn't say go out and buy 427 00:20:01,996 --> 00:20:04,476 Speaker 2: an expensive service. You didn't say go out and buy 428 00:20:04,476 --> 00:20:07,756 Speaker 2: an expensive product. You talked about things that are within 429 00:20:08,316 --> 00:20:12,236 Speaker 2: our grasp, about sleep, about the empower of gratitude, about 430 00:20:12,996 --> 00:20:15,356 Speaker 2: even a short amount of physical activity on a given 431 00:20:15,436 --> 00:20:17,676 Speaker 2: day making an impact on our mood and how we feel. 432 00:20:18,076 --> 00:20:20,796 Speaker 2: Talked about social connection, about picking up the phone to 433 00:20:20,836 --> 00:20:23,236 Speaker 2: call a friend, or picking up the phone when someone calls, 434 00:20:23,276 --> 00:20:25,556 Speaker 2: even if it's for two minutes, but just to hear 435 00:20:25,556 --> 00:20:28,676 Speaker 2: their voice. These are incredibly powerful, and when you mentioned them, 436 00:20:29,156 --> 00:20:31,956 Speaker 2: it strikes me that these are kind of the original 437 00:20:31,956 --> 00:20:35,596 Speaker 2: building blocks of what allowed humans to thrive. Right, And 438 00:20:35,636 --> 00:20:38,076 Speaker 2: in some ways, what you're speaking to I think so 439 00:20:38,796 --> 00:20:40,916 Speaker 2: eloquently in what you've been modeling, I think in your 440 00:20:40,916 --> 00:20:43,716 Speaker 2: own life and your coursework, is that this is not 441 00:20:43,796 --> 00:20:46,996 Speaker 2: an effort to somehow transform us into something that's just 442 00:20:47,156 --> 00:20:50,836 Speaker 2: totally unfamiliar and foreign to us. This is a return 443 00:20:50,876 --> 00:20:54,476 Speaker 2: to who we've been for thousands of years. And we've 444 00:20:54,556 --> 00:20:57,236 Speaker 2: perhaps in recent history forgotten that as we've allowed other 445 00:20:57,276 --> 00:21:00,676 Speaker 2: influences to shift what we pursue and how we live. 446 00:21:00,796 --> 00:21:05,756 Speaker 2: But this is our chance, and I think our opportunity 447 00:21:05,756 --> 00:21:07,956 Speaker 2: to really get back to living a life that truly 448 00:21:08,236 --> 00:21:11,116 Speaker 2: nourishes us and how to thrive. There's one thing you 449 00:21:11,156 --> 00:21:14,156 Speaker 2: mentioned also that I that struck me too, you know, 450 00:21:14,196 --> 00:21:16,276 Speaker 2: when it made me think about my conversations I've had 451 00:21:16,316 --> 00:21:19,476 Speaker 2: with patients over the years about behavior change, often around 452 00:21:19,556 --> 00:21:22,596 Speaker 2: like diet and physical activity, which are you know, challenging 453 00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:24,316 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, if you are like me, you 454 00:21:24,396 --> 00:21:27,596 Speaker 2: probably started gym routines many times in your in your life, 455 00:21:27,676 --> 00:21:29,676 Speaker 2: or diets various times, and they have fallen off the 456 00:21:29,716 --> 00:21:32,796 Speaker 2: wagon somehow. And one thing I always found powerful with 457 00:21:32,916 --> 00:21:36,916 Speaker 2: patients was to recommend to them that they have somebody 458 00:21:36,916 --> 00:21:40,116 Speaker 2: else in their life that they can either pair up 459 00:21:40,116 --> 00:21:42,596 Speaker 2: with and make a commitment to do something together, whether 460 00:21:42,596 --> 00:21:44,516 Speaker 2: it's trut a new diet or a new exercise pattern, 461 00:21:44,796 --> 00:21:47,476 Speaker 2: or at least somebody who they can can hold them 462 00:21:47,476 --> 00:21:50,556 Speaker 2: accountable in a kind uh you know, but firm way. 463 00:21:50,636 --> 00:21:52,916 Speaker 2: You know, a good friend whom they may check in with, 464 00:21:52,996 --> 00:21:54,636 Speaker 2: you know, every couple of days to say hey, here's 465 00:21:54,636 --> 00:21:58,996 Speaker 2: how I'm doing on my diet, and that external partnership accountability. Uh, 466 00:21:59,516 --> 00:22:02,156 Speaker 2: it's felt. I've just noticed with patients with myself that 467 00:22:02,236 --> 00:22:05,236 Speaker 2: it helps, you know, make behavior change stick, it increases 468 00:22:05,276 --> 00:22:07,316 Speaker 2: the longevity. But I'm curious what you've seen in your 469 00:22:07,316 --> 00:22:08,076 Speaker 2: research as well. 470 00:22:08,236 --> 00:22:10,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean definitely. I think one of the reasons 471 00:22:10,316 --> 00:22:12,596 Speaker 1: that students do so well in my class, that we 472 00:22:12,636 --> 00:22:15,236 Speaker 1: do see these actual wellbeing gains when we measure before 473 00:22:15,276 --> 00:22:18,236 Speaker 1: and after, is that students are doing it in the 474 00:22:18,276 --> 00:22:20,116 Speaker 1: context of this big group. Right. You know, there's a 475 00:22:20,196 --> 00:22:22,596 Speaker 1: quarter of the entire Yale student body who's you know, 476 00:22:22,636 --> 00:22:24,876 Speaker 1: engaging with these things at the same time. For by 477 00:22:24,956 --> 00:22:27,916 Speaker 1: online class that we put online for free on Coursera, 478 00:22:27,996 --> 00:22:30,236 Speaker 1: you know, there's millions of learners who are doing the 479 00:22:30,276 --> 00:22:32,156 Speaker 1: same thing at the same time that you can connect 480 00:22:32,156 --> 00:22:34,276 Speaker 1: with on message boards and things like that. And you 481 00:22:34,316 --> 00:22:36,436 Speaker 1: know that's you know, a big extreme version. But I 482 00:22:36,436 --> 00:22:38,196 Speaker 1: think you know, just partner up with a friend and 483 00:22:38,756 --> 00:22:41,436 Speaker 1: and try to do these kinds of practices together. I 484 00:22:41,476 --> 00:22:43,556 Speaker 1: think this is a spot where parents can really get 485 00:22:43,556 --> 00:22:44,476 Speaker 1: something out of kids. 486 00:22:44,556 --> 00:22:44,676 Speaker 2: Right. 487 00:22:44,716 --> 00:22:47,036 Speaker 1: You know, all the practices we just talked about are 488 00:22:47,076 --> 00:22:49,116 Speaker 1: ones that you can explain, you know, to your six 489 00:22:49,196 --> 00:22:51,236 Speaker 1: year old, you know, in five minutes and they get it. 490 00:22:51,636 --> 00:22:53,556 Speaker 1: And they'll you know, if you commit to doing this 491 00:22:53,636 --> 00:22:56,316 Speaker 1: stuff together with your kids, they'll hold you accountable. You know. 492 00:22:56,356 --> 00:22:58,636 Speaker 1: If you're supposed to be getting time affluence and you're not, 493 00:22:58,636 --> 00:23:00,716 Speaker 1: your kid would like Dad, like, you know, like you 494 00:23:00,756 --> 00:23:02,836 Speaker 1: said we should get time affluence, you know, like you 495 00:23:02,876 --> 00:23:04,436 Speaker 1: said you should work out the day you didn't work 496 00:23:04,476 --> 00:23:06,916 Speaker 1: out today, Like they love calling you out on that stuff. 497 00:23:06,916 --> 00:23:09,956 Speaker 1: And so I think that that this idea of connecting 498 00:23:09,956 --> 00:23:12,316 Speaker 1: with other people allows you to have the social connection, 499 00:23:12,356 --> 00:23:14,556 Speaker 1: but it also allows you to have some social support. Right. 500 00:23:14,636 --> 00:23:17,076 Speaker 1: You feel worse if you're not engaging in these things 501 00:23:17,116 --> 00:23:20,356 Speaker 1: because you're letting somebody else down. So it's a powerful 502 00:23:20,396 --> 00:23:22,356 Speaker 1: way to do these things. But getting back to your 503 00:23:22,356 --> 00:23:23,676 Speaker 1: other point, I mean, I agree it's you know, in 504 00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:26,196 Speaker 1: some ways, when I give the list of all these 505 00:23:26,676 --> 00:23:28,996 Speaker 1: evidence based things that you know, like people are getting, know, 506 00:23:29,036 --> 00:23:31,156 Speaker 1: social scientists are getting money to study, and it's like, look, 507 00:23:31,196 --> 00:23:34,076 Speaker 1: the list is like social connection and exercise more and sleep. 508 00:23:34,356 --> 00:23:36,276 Speaker 1: Your people will say, you know, that's that's what my 509 00:23:36,316 --> 00:23:38,996 Speaker 1: grandmother told me. You know, like this is you know, 510 00:23:39,076 --> 00:23:41,916 Speaker 1: like this is common wisdom, and I think ironically it's 511 00:23:41,956 --> 00:23:44,436 Speaker 1: it's long been common wisdom, but at least in the 512 00:23:44,516 --> 00:23:47,516 Speaker 1: modern day, it's not common practice. Right. It's the kind 513 00:23:47,516 --> 00:23:50,036 Speaker 1: of thing we need to build into our lives to 514 00:23:50,356 --> 00:23:52,636 Speaker 1: live a healthy life. And so I think coming up 515 00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:55,516 Speaker 1: with structures, whether it's social support or you're putting it 516 00:23:55,516 --> 00:23:57,796 Speaker 1: in your calendar, anything you can do to build these 517 00:23:57,836 --> 00:24:01,356 Speaker 1: things in is important. The final caveat I'll say with that, though, 518 00:24:01,396 --> 00:24:03,876 Speaker 1: is that, you know, I think whenever we hear this stuff, 519 00:24:03,996 --> 00:24:05,956 Speaker 1: you know, we as humans, you know, being these like 520 00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:08,036 Speaker 1: reward driven, you know, especially my kind of type a 521 00:24:08,156 --> 00:24:11,116 Speaker 1: Yale students, Like, there can be this move where you're like, 522 00:24:11,316 --> 00:24:13,516 Speaker 1: all right, and now I will begin beating myself up 523 00:24:13,516 --> 00:24:15,916 Speaker 1: for not being this like perfectly happy creature or not 524 00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:18,876 Speaker 1: achieving all these behaviors and mindsets. And I think it's 525 00:24:18,876 --> 00:24:22,716 Speaker 1: important to remember the power of baby steps, right. You know, 526 00:24:23,036 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 1: if you're feeling really lonely and you're not getting in 527 00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:27,716 Speaker 1: any social connection, you know, just texting a friend wants 528 00:24:27,796 --> 00:24:29,996 Speaker 1: is going to do some work. You know, if you're 529 00:24:30,196 --> 00:24:32,876 Speaker 1: a really kind of person, that the type of person 530 00:24:32,876 --> 00:24:35,396 Speaker 1: that focuses on the negative, then you know, thinking of 531 00:24:35,476 --> 00:24:37,596 Speaker 1: one thing that you might be grateful for every night 532 00:24:37,796 --> 00:24:40,036 Speaker 1: could be a powerful shift in your attention. And so 533 00:24:40,396 --> 00:24:42,236 Speaker 1: I think if you're hearing these things, you're feeling like, 534 00:24:42,236 --> 00:24:44,476 Speaker 1: oh gosh, I got to do all of them, you know, 535 00:24:44,556 --> 00:24:46,756 Speaker 1: that's a moment to maybe take a step back, you 536 00:24:46,836 --> 00:24:49,196 Speaker 1: give yourself some grace, pick one thing to focus on, 537 00:24:49,716 --> 00:24:53,036 Speaker 1: and start small. We know behavior change works best if 538 00:24:53,036 --> 00:24:55,836 Speaker 1: people are picking small things to start with and giving 539 00:24:55,836 --> 00:24:58,196 Speaker 1: themselves grace when things don't work out perfectly. 540 00:24:59,316 --> 00:25:03,156 Speaker 2: Laurie, that makes great sense. And if I think if 541 00:25:03,196 --> 00:25:05,476 Speaker 2: we could pursue some of these pathways for action that 542 00:25:05,516 --> 00:25:08,876 Speaker 2: you're talking about, especially when we're feeling, you know, run 543 00:25:08,916 --> 00:25:11,236 Speaker 2: down or burned out, I think they may help a lot. 544 00:25:11,996 --> 00:25:14,636 Speaker 2: But I want to ask you about two technology related 545 00:25:14,676 --> 00:25:19,476 Speaker 2: pathways that many of us, myself included, sometimes feel ourselves 546 00:25:19,476 --> 00:25:22,476 Speaker 2: walking down when we're feeling tired or exhausted or burned out. 547 00:25:23,396 --> 00:25:26,316 Speaker 2: One is social media, you know, which you know, sometimes 548 00:25:26,516 --> 00:25:29,436 Speaker 2: we can feel like, gosh, if I from lonely, or 549 00:25:29,476 --> 00:25:31,236 Speaker 2: if I'm just not feeling connected to people, let me 550 00:25:31,316 --> 00:25:33,756 Speaker 2: just you know, log onto my social media app and 551 00:25:33,756 --> 00:25:35,036 Speaker 2: then I'll see what other folks are doing, and I'll 552 00:25:35,076 --> 00:25:37,556 Speaker 2: feel connected to them. But then there's the other tech 553 00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:39,716 Speaker 2: piece I want I talked to you about, which is 554 00:25:39,756 --> 00:25:43,036 Speaker 2: streaming TV shows and movies, right, which is you know 555 00:25:43,636 --> 00:25:45,796 Speaker 2: once you know, I remember growing up we had to 556 00:25:45,836 --> 00:25:47,516 Speaker 2: like wait a week, you know for the next you know, 557 00:25:47,676 --> 00:25:49,996 Speaker 2: show to come on, and it was like maddening, Like, oh, 558 00:25:49,996 --> 00:25:51,916 Speaker 2: I wonder what happens in the next episode. Now, of 559 00:25:51,916 --> 00:25:54,156 Speaker 2: course we can. You can binge watch you know, an 560 00:25:54,276 --> 00:25:56,596 Speaker 2: entire series, you know, like in a night or weekend 561 00:25:56,596 --> 00:26:00,556 Speaker 2: if you want. And I've certainly found myself at moments, 562 00:26:00,596 --> 00:26:02,916 Speaker 2: you know, over the years, you know, when I've felt 563 00:26:03,076 --> 00:26:04,796 Speaker 2: you know, just exhausted or burned out. But like, you know, 564 00:26:04,916 --> 00:26:06,476 Speaker 2: let me just sit down and watch a few episodes 565 00:26:06,476 --> 00:26:08,116 Speaker 2: of my favorite show. But tell me, how do you 566 00:26:08,156 --> 00:26:11,796 Speaker 2: think about these types of technology platforms? How can they 567 00:26:11,836 --> 00:26:14,756 Speaker 2: be helpful to us? When are they actually not helping us? 568 00:26:14,836 --> 00:26:16,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think the problem with some of 569 00:26:16,876 --> 00:26:18,996 Speaker 1: these technology platforms, I mean, there might be lots of 570 00:26:19,076 --> 00:26:21,796 Speaker 1: challenges with them, but I think one particular challenge comes 571 00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:24,356 Speaker 1: from yet another way that our mind lies to us, 572 00:26:24,356 --> 00:26:26,036 Speaker 1: which is that our mind really lies to us when 573 00:26:26,036 --> 00:26:28,036 Speaker 1: it comes to leisure. Right, you know, I have a 574 00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:30,596 Speaker 1: super busy week at work, you know, I finally get 575 00:26:30,636 --> 00:26:33,596 Speaker 1: some downtime. My instinct is that the best thing to 576 00:26:33,596 --> 00:26:35,436 Speaker 1: do will be to PLoP down and watch Netflix or 577 00:26:35,476 --> 00:26:38,476 Speaker 1: scroll through Reddit, or do something that feels like vegging out. 578 00:26:38,516 --> 00:26:41,796 Speaker 1: That's my instinct of what I'm motivated to do. But 579 00:26:41,876 --> 00:26:44,036 Speaker 1: in practice, if you look at the emotions that happen 580 00:26:44,076 --> 00:26:46,956 Speaker 1: when I do that, I kind of feel apathy. I'm 581 00:26:47,036 --> 00:26:49,556 Speaker 1: kind of bored, Like I'm kind of not challenged, right 582 00:26:49,996 --> 00:26:52,116 Speaker 1: Whereas if I did something that was a little bit 583 00:26:52,156 --> 00:26:54,316 Speaker 1: more challenging, right, like I had a little bit of 584 00:26:54,356 --> 00:26:57,436 Speaker 1: a startup cost, like call a friend or engage with something, 585 00:26:57,436 --> 00:26:59,596 Speaker 1: you know, learn a new hobby or something like that, right, 586 00:26:59,676 --> 00:27:02,836 Speaker 1: like that ultimately would be a better boost and happiness. 587 00:27:02,876 --> 00:27:04,876 Speaker 1: Even something like you know, doing like a quick yoga 588 00:27:05,076 --> 00:27:07,316 Speaker 1: you know, like you know class, or like a little 589 00:27:07,316 --> 00:27:10,316 Speaker 1: pilates or just like a couple jumping, I'd feel better. 590 00:27:10,796 --> 00:27:13,516 Speaker 1: But my instinct is that I wouldn't. And and this 591 00:27:13,596 --> 00:27:15,836 Speaker 1: is is something that I think I see with leisure 592 00:27:15,876 --> 00:27:18,356 Speaker 1: a lot, Like, you know, companies aren't you know, making 593 00:27:18,436 --> 00:27:21,036 Speaker 1: things these things to hurt us. They're giving us what 594 00:27:21,076 --> 00:27:23,836 Speaker 1: we want, you know, we want these quick dopamine hits 595 00:27:23,876 --> 00:27:26,756 Speaker 1: that feel kind of relaxing, but once we get them, 596 00:27:26,756 --> 00:27:29,756 Speaker 1: it means it becomes easier and easier to avoid the 597 00:27:29,796 --> 00:27:31,676 Speaker 1: thing that has a little bit of startup costs, but 598 00:27:31,796 --> 00:27:35,156 Speaker 1: ultimately for our happiness would feel better. And so for me, 599 00:27:35,276 --> 00:27:38,436 Speaker 1: what helps with that is just recognizing that that's true, right, 600 00:27:38,476 --> 00:27:41,396 Speaker 1: like knowing the science of that. Because even though I'm like, 601 00:27:41,436 --> 00:27:43,596 Speaker 1: you know, like I teach this class at Yale and 602 00:27:43,636 --> 00:27:45,596 Speaker 1: I've become, you know, an expert on some of these things, 603 00:27:45,876 --> 00:27:48,196 Speaker 1: I still fall prey to all these intuitions, right. You know, 604 00:27:48,236 --> 00:27:50,276 Speaker 1: tonight we'll have this conversation. I'll have a very busy 605 00:27:50,356 --> 00:27:52,636 Speaker 1: day with all these zoom calls, and I will immediately 606 00:27:52,636 --> 00:27:54,196 Speaker 1: be like, whoa, I'm going to pick up my phone 607 00:27:54,196 --> 00:27:55,716 Speaker 1: and scroll read it. I won't be like, oh, let 608 00:27:55,756 --> 00:27:57,516 Speaker 1: me call a friend who I haven't talked to, or 609 00:27:57,596 --> 00:27:59,156 Speaker 1: let me like pull out my yoga mat and do 610 00:27:59,236 --> 00:28:01,916 Speaker 1: a hard plates Like I know that I'm supposed to 611 00:28:01,916 --> 00:28:04,876 Speaker 1: do that, but my instinct is like anything but right. 612 00:28:05,356 --> 00:28:07,836 Speaker 1: But I think sometimes knowing the stuff can can allow 613 00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:10,356 Speaker 1: you to recognize it right. It can help you mindfully 614 00:28:10,636 --> 00:28:13,836 Speaker 1: realize that engaging in those activities isn't going to give 615 00:28:13,836 --> 00:28:15,676 Speaker 1: you the fun that you expect. 616 00:28:15,916 --> 00:28:17,836 Speaker 2: We talked a lot, you and I about the culture 617 00:28:17,876 --> 00:28:19,996 Speaker 2: piece here, about how part of what we need to 618 00:28:20,036 --> 00:28:23,316 Speaker 2: do is is shift our culture from the kind of 619 00:28:23,356 --> 00:28:26,076 Speaker 2: hustle culture that's leading young people to pursue and chase 620 00:28:27,036 --> 00:28:29,476 Speaker 2: the kind of achievement that doesn't always lead to happiness, 621 00:28:29,516 --> 00:28:33,916 Speaker 2: to refocusing on the things that truly do bring us happiness, 622 00:28:33,996 --> 00:28:38,356 Speaker 2: enjoy our relationships, our physical health, our sleep, to focusing 623 00:28:38,356 --> 00:28:42,716 Speaker 2: on what we're grateful for. How does that culture shift, Like, 624 00:28:42,796 --> 00:28:45,436 Speaker 2: what do you see as necessary to happen that's going 625 00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:49,756 Speaker 2: to ensure that our kids in future generations are guided 626 00:28:49,796 --> 00:28:53,436 Speaker 2: by a set of incentives that actually truly maximize their happiness. 627 00:28:53,516 --> 00:28:54,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think there are a couple of 628 00:28:55,036 --> 00:28:58,316 Speaker 1: spots to shift. I mean, one is changing the kinds 629 00:28:58,316 --> 00:29:00,876 Speaker 1: of structures that are making that difficult. You know. Whether 630 00:29:00,916 --> 00:29:04,196 Speaker 1: that looks like tech companies realizing that you know, they 631 00:29:04,196 --> 00:29:06,196 Speaker 1: don't want to be cigarettes and they should, you know, 632 00:29:06,276 --> 00:29:10,196 Speaker 1: fix themselves before regulators decide to regulate them. One possibility. 633 00:29:10,636 --> 00:29:13,316 Speaker 1: I think universities need to do the same thing. I mean, 634 00:29:13,356 --> 00:29:15,436 Speaker 1: I think, you know, in some ways I worry the 635 00:29:15,476 --> 00:29:18,356 Speaker 1: admissions office is that big universities like mine are like 636 00:29:18,396 --> 00:29:21,796 Speaker 1: cigarette pushers that are setting up structures that they need 637 00:29:21,836 --> 00:29:24,876 Speaker 1: to worry that they're, you know, dismantling the very generation 638 00:29:25,076 --> 00:29:27,196 Speaker 1: that they want to be educating and want to be 639 00:29:27,276 --> 00:29:30,396 Speaker 1: bringing up. And I think, you know, careful decisions and 640 00:29:30,436 --> 00:29:34,236 Speaker 1: maybe kind of coordinated decisions across universities about what counts 641 00:29:34,236 --> 00:29:38,156 Speaker 1: as admissions kind of stuff will matter a lot. I'm 642 00:29:38,196 --> 00:29:40,276 Speaker 1: not sure universities will get there, who knows, but I 643 00:29:40,276 --> 00:29:43,196 Speaker 1: think that that helps a lot. But I actually think 644 00:29:43,236 --> 00:29:45,436 Speaker 1: and one of the reasons I'm so excited to teach 645 00:29:45,516 --> 00:29:47,636 Speaker 1: young people and to try to get this content out 646 00:29:47,636 --> 00:29:50,316 Speaker 1: to even younger learners is I actually think a lot 647 00:29:50,316 --> 00:29:52,196 Speaker 1: of the change is going to come from our young people. 648 00:29:52,276 --> 00:29:54,516 Speaker 1: You know. I look at the kinds of things that 649 00:29:54,556 --> 00:29:57,276 Speaker 1: students and young people are doing well with social media, 650 00:29:57,476 --> 00:29:59,436 Speaker 1: you know, look at the kind of outreach that happened 651 00:29:59,436 --> 00:30:01,876 Speaker 1: after an awful incident like Parkland, right, Like look at 652 00:30:01,916 --> 00:30:04,916 Speaker 1: the kind of social justice movements that students are engaging 653 00:30:04,956 --> 00:30:08,356 Speaker 1: in online. Right they are able to use these tools 654 00:30:08,396 --> 00:30:11,916 Speaker 1: for powerful collective action. And what we'll need to do 655 00:30:11,996 --> 00:30:14,356 Speaker 1: to fight this kind of arms race of hustle culture 656 00:30:14,356 --> 00:30:17,436 Speaker 1: that's emerged among our young people is to de escalate, 657 00:30:17,636 --> 00:30:21,036 Speaker 1: and that takes a kind of coordinated action that these 658 00:30:21,076 --> 00:30:24,476 Speaker 1: tools might, ironically like allow our young people to do. So. 659 00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:26,956 Speaker 1: I think as young people learn more that you know, 660 00:30:27,396 --> 00:30:29,476 Speaker 1: we promised you a bill of goods that's just kind 661 00:30:29,516 --> 00:30:32,036 Speaker 1: of not going to deliver, you know, they may take 662 00:30:32,076 --> 00:30:34,596 Speaker 1: collective action to shift these things around. And you know, 663 00:30:34,636 --> 00:30:37,236 Speaker 1: as I teach more and more young people in middle 664 00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:38,876 Speaker 1: school and high school, as they hear some of these 665 00:30:38,916 --> 00:30:40,596 Speaker 1: results and they're like, wait a minute, hang on, that's 666 00:30:40,596 --> 00:30:43,076 Speaker 1: not what I was promised from all this hustle, I 667 00:30:43,196 --> 00:30:46,036 Speaker 1: kind of watch them scaling back, and I'm hopeful that 668 00:30:46,116 --> 00:30:48,796 Speaker 1: they really will use the tools that they have that 669 00:30:48,836 --> 00:30:52,236 Speaker 1: their generation is kind of uniquely good at to do that. Well. 670 00:30:52,236 --> 00:30:53,956 Speaker 2: I was going to ask you what makes you hopeful 671 00:30:53,996 --> 00:30:56,996 Speaker 2: about the future, and you just told me in your 672 00:30:57,076 --> 00:31:00,076 Speaker 2: prescient way. But I think that in my mind makes 673 00:31:00,156 --> 00:31:05,036 Speaker 2: courses like yours, Lori all the more important, because I 674 00:31:05,076 --> 00:31:07,316 Speaker 2: do agree with you. Our greatest chance of shifting culture 675 00:31:07,356 --> 00:31:10,596 Speaker 2: is going to come from the rising generation of young 676 00:31:10,636 --> 00:31:13,356 Speaker 2: people who decide that they want to live a different life. 677 00:31:15,556 --> 00:31:17,436 Speaker 2: But we need to encourage them. We need to support 678 00:31:17,476 --> 00:31:19,556 Speaker 2: them as they do it, because it's not always going 679 00:31:19,596 --> 00:31:21,116 Speaker 2: to be easy to do. And I think you're giving 680 00:31:21,156 --> 00:31:24,356 Speaker 2: people the permission, the vocabulary of the structure through which 681 00:31:24,356 --> 00:31:26,876 Speaker 2: to think about that through your course, which I think 682 00:31:26,916 --> 00:31:28,716 Speaker 2: is so valuable. I want to end just with a 683 00:31:28,756 --> 00:31:32,956 Speaker 2: couple of fun questions for you. You recently staged a funtervention, 684 00:31:33,516 --> 00:31:36,636 Speaker 2: which I love the term, but an intervention to bring 685 00:31:36,676 --> 00:31:38,596 Speaker 2: fun into your life at a time where you realize 686 00:31:38,796 --> 00:31:41,076 Speaker 2: you needed to be having more fun. But I'm curious, 687 00:31:41,116 --> 00:31:43,996 Speaker 2: what did you do in your funtervention and do you 688 00:31:44,036 --> 00:31:45,996 Speaker 2: recommend that other people stage fundervention. 689 00:31:46,116 --> 00:31:49,276 Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, ten out of ten recommend the funtervention. I mean, so, 690 00:31:49,516 --> 00:31:51,676 Speaker 1: the fund prevention was just an attempt to get a 691 00:31:51,716 --> 00:31:55,876 Speaker 1: little bit more socially connected play into my life, and 692 00:31:55,956 --> 00:31:58,676 Speaker 1: it started. Step one was a kind of attitude shift. 693 00:31:58,676 --> 00:32:00,836 Speaker 1: I went around trying to find delights in the world, 694 00:32:00,876 --> 00:32:03,036 Speaker 1: sort of trained my brain to notice things that were 695 00:32:03,036 --> 00:32:05,876 Speaker 1: delightful and then shared them with friends of mine. But 696 00:32:05,876 --> 00:32:07,956 Speaker 1: then it was trying to do something that was social 697 00:32:07,996 --> 00:32:10,836 Speaker 1: and fun that I had no external reward for that 698 00:32:10,876 --> 00:32:12,476 Speaker 1: I knew I'd just be bad at. And so I 699 00:32:12,556 --> 00:32:17,156 Speaker 1: tried surfing, which you've met me. I'm like a a 700 00:32:17,196 --> 00:32:20,036 Speaker 1: forty something, very uncordated person with no athletic skill, and 701 00:32:20,076 --> 00:32:22,036 Speaker 1: so surfing was going to be I'm never going to 702 00:32:22,076 --> 00:32:24,636 Speaker 1: be a surfer, and so I had to embrace it 703 00:32:24,716 --> 00:32:27,756 Speaker 1: in a fun way, just like as something goofy and 704 00:32:27,836 --> 00:32:29,836 Speaker 1: kind of stupid, and I wasn't really trying to get 705 00:32:29,836 --> 00:32:32,956 Speaker 1: some external reward out of it. And it was fantastic. 706 00:32:32,996 --> 00:32:34,836 Speaker 1: It was as predicted, super fun. 707 00:32:35,196 --> 00:32:38,476 Speaker 2: I love that. Okay, well, I'm taking away doctor Santos's 708 00:32:38,516 --> 00:32:40,996 Speaker 2: prescription for everyone is a funtervention at some point in 709 00:32:41,036 --> 00:32:44,356 Speaker 2: their life. I'm certainly going to do that. And then finally, 710 00:32:44,476 --> 00:32:47,716 Speaker 2: you've spent year study monkeys. Is there something that you've 711 00:32:47,796 --> 00:32:51,276 Speaker 2: learned from monkeys that we can learn from as human Yeah? 712 00:32:51,316 --> 00:32:53,636 Speaker 1: I think you know. One of the ironies is that 713 00:32:53,676 --> 00:32:56,516 Speaker 1: if you touch to people who are really interested in 714 00:32:56,516 --> 00:32:59,876 Speaker 1: in developing a mindset of mindfulness, right, a mindset of presence, 715 00:33:00,276 --> 00:33:02,916 Speaker 1: they often curse what's called the monkey mind, this idea 716 00:33:02,956 --> 00:33:04,796 Speaker 1: that our mind, you know, jumps from things to things 717 00:33:04,836 --> 00:33:06,876 Speaker 1: and so on. But having spent a lot of time 718 00:33:06,916 --> 00:33:10,076 Speaker 1: with monkeys, I think this is an unnecessary, an unfair 719 00:33:10,116 --> 00:33:12,836 Speaker 1: insult to monkeys, Like if you look in the monkey mind, 720 00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:15,196 Speaker 1: they're just present all the time. When they're eating something, 721 00:33:15,196 --> 00:33:17,596 Speaker 1: they're just eating something. When they're grooming another monkey, they're 722 00:33:17,636 --> 00:33:20,676 Speaker 1: just grooming. And you know, I often, ironically wish I 723 00:33:20,676 --> 00:33:22,876 Speaker 1: could get back to my monkey mind. I think that's 724 00:33:22,916 --> 00:33:25,156 Speaker 1: a big happiness insight that I've gotten from monkeys. 725 00:33:25,516 --> 00:33:29,516 Speaker 2: That presence is so important, and I think we easily 726 00:33:29,556 --> 00:33:31,676 Speaker 2: get robbed of that by the distractions in our life, 727 00:33:31,716 --> 00:33:34,876 Speaker 2: whether it's our phone or our email inbox or other 728 00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:39,236 Speaker 2: things that are constantly banging and generating alerts in our life. 729 00:33:39,556 --> 00:33:42,916 Speaker 2: You've shared so much wisdom today. I was been taking 730 00:33:43,396 --> 00:33:46,676 Speaker 2: notes as we were talking, but just so many beautiful things. 731 00:33:46,676 --> 00:33:50,396 Speaker 2: I think about one you've helped. I think me and 732 00:33:50,596 --> 00:33:53,676 Speaker 2: our listeners just understand that happiness is in fact within 733 00:33:53,716 --> 00:33:56,756 Speaker 2: our grasp, but it's not something we can tay for granted. 734 00:33:56,876 --> 00:33:59,956 Speaker 2: We actually have to work to build the activities that 735 00:34:00,036 --> 00:34:05,156 Speaker 2: generate happiness into our life, whether that's gratitude, social connections, sleep, exercise, 736 00:34:06,236 --> 00:34:09,516 Speaker 2: or time affluence. As you said, and that's point I 737 00:34:09,836 --> 00:34:13,036 Speaker 2: want to underscore as well, is that free time, unstructured 738 00:34:13,076 --> 00:34:15,876 Speaker 2: on scheduled time, is a very very good thing. It 739 00:34:15,916 --> 00:34:17,636 Speaker 2: is not a bad thing, and it's not evidence that 740 00:34:17,676 --> 00:34:21,516 Speaker 2: you are lazy or unproductive or that you're somehow leaving 741 00:34:21,876 --> 00:34:24,276 Speaker 2: something on the field. That is actually what we all 742 00:34:24,316 --> 00:34:27,756 Speaker 2: need to thrive, and we've squeezed ourselves too much in 743 00:34:27,796 --> 00:34:31,116 Speaker 2: that regard. And of the many other lessons you shared, 744 00:34:31,196 --> 00:34:34,316 Speaker 2: I think the importance of being kind to ourselves and 745 00:34:34,356 --> 00:34:36,676 Speaker 2: each other really stands out too, you know that, not 746 00:34:36,756 --> 00:34:40,516 Speaker 2: beating ourselves up, recognizing that we're in a challenging time 747 00:34:40,596 --> 00:34:42,436 Speaker 2: right now, not just because of the pandemic, but because 748 00:34:42,436 --> 00:34:45,396 Speaker 2: of the broader culture that we're growing up then living 749 00:34:45,396 --> 00:34:49,116 Speaker 2: in and the demands it's placing on us. But that 750 00:34:49,276 --> 00:34:51,876 Speaker 2: is all made a bit better whenever we're able to 751 00:34:51,916 --> 00:34:54,396 Speaker 2: be just a bit more kind to one another as well. 752 00:34:54,436 --> 00:34:56,436 Speaker 2: And in a world where so many things seem to 753 00:34:56,436 --> 00:34:58,836 Speaker 2: be pushing us to be more angry at one another 754 00:34:58,916 --> 00:35:02,876 Speaker 2: or to demonize one another, being kind can be an active, 755 00:35:03,796 --> 00:35:06,756 Speaker 2: you know, of radical opposition, if you will, to those 756 00:35:07,516 --> 00:35:11,156 Speaker 2: types of cultural elements that are and technology pieces that 757 00:35:11,236 --> 00:35:13,756 Speaker 2: are constantly trying to make us angry at one another 758 00:35:13,876 --> 00:35:17,316 Speaker 2: or turn us against one another. So thank you just 759 00:35:17,436 --> 00:35:20,356 Speaker 2: for joining LORI, thank you for this wonderful conversation for 760 00:35:20,396 --> 00:35:23,476 Speaker 2: inspiring me as you always do, and teaching me, but 761 00:35:23,676 --> 00:35:25,516 Speaker 2: most importantly, thank you for the work you do in 762 00:35:25,556 --> 00:35:29,956 Speaker 2: the world to help create a happier, more fulfilled society. 763 00:35:29,956 --> 00:35:32,156 Speaker 2: That's what we need and we certainly need you out 764 00:35:32,196 --> 00:35:34,836 Speaker 2: there doing the incredible work that you're doing, so I 765 00:35:34,956 --> 00:35:35,676 Speaker 2: really appreciate you. 766 00:35:35,756 --> 00:35:38,156 Speaker 1: Laurie, ditto, and thanks for helping me share the message. 767 00:35:38,716 --> 00:35:42,316 Speaker 2: This concludes our conversation with Lorie Santos. Join me for 768 00:35:42,356 --> 00:35:44,916 Speaker 2: the next episode of House Calls with doctor Vivik Morphy, 769 00:35:45,516 --> 00:35:47,596 Speaker 2: wishing you all health and happiness.