Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine, Hey fam Today, on the bright side, we're
Speaker 1: unlocking the secret superpowers of the mommy brain. You've heard
Speaker 1: about the brain fog or over stimulation, but clinical psychologist
Speaker 1: doctor Nicole Pensac is here to tell us why we
Speaker 1: should be celebrating the cognitive benefits of the postpartum brain.
Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, February twenty six. I'm Simone Boyce.
Speaker 2: I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright side from
Speaker 2: Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 1: Okay, Danielle, you know how much I love cool vocabulary.
Speaker 2: Right of course, I have a whole list of your
Speaker 2: vocab written down in my notes.
Speaker 3: Fad verdant comes to mind.
Speaker 1: Verdant is a good one. I have a new favorite.
Speaker 3: Word, Okay, give it to me.
Speaker 1: And this word is so important because it's often hard
Speaker 1: to describe just how vast and transformative the physical and
Speaker 1: physiological changes are that come with motherhood. So there is
Speaker 1: the term called matrescence, and it literally means the physiological
Speaker 1: changes that happen in our brain, happened in our bodies everything,
Speaker 1: and encapsulates this huge life shift into motherhood goodness. And
Speaker 1: that's exactly what doctor Nicole Pensack talks about in her book,
Speaker 1: it's called Rattled, and honestly, it is one of these
Speaker 1: books that I'm keeping in my arsenal whenever I have
Speaker 1: a friend who is about to give birth, because I
Speaker 1: just think it's essential reading for anyone who's about to
Speaker 1: enter into that life stage.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: And doctor Nicole Pensick is a clinical psychologist, and she's
Speaker 2: someone who's both studied the postpartum experience and gone through
Speaker 2: it herself. She's a mom. And you went through at
Speaker 2: some moment. What was that period of time post earth
Speaker 2: like for you? Well, for me, it varied so much
Speaker 2: between the two kids. I think the first time I
Speaker 2: went through postpartum, I was filled with this like euphoria
Speaker 2: and bliss and I really just wanted to soak up
Speaker 2: every moment. I think the second time, and the research
Speaker 2: reflects this, postpartum hit me a lot harder and I
Speaker 2: really wasn't prepared for that. I had heard about postpartum,
Speaker 2: but it's almost it's so hard to recognize it in
Speaker 2: yourself because you kind of you minimize your own experience
Speaker 2: and you're like.
Speaker 1: Oh, no, this wouldn't happen to me. Of course it
Speaker 1: would happen to someone else, but this isn't. There's no
Speaker 1: way this is actually happening to me, And it's actually
Speaker 1: taken me years of reflection to look back and realize, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that was my experience. I think I was
Speaker 1: dealing with postpartum depression.
Speaker 3: What were you feeling?
Speaker 1: There is a heightened sense of depression that I experienced
Speaker 1: in the first two weeks after giving birth to my
Speaker 1: second child, so much so that I called a suicide
Speaker 1: hotline because I didn't know who to talk to. I
Speaker 1: was in a time of crisis and I just needed
Speaker 1: to speak to a mental health professional immediately. So that's
Speaker 1: like the extreme side of it. That extreme crisis situation
Speaker 1: eventually faded away, and I think what it evolved into
Speaker 1: was this very low grade postpartum depression. And so when
Speaker 1: I say that, I it was hard for me to
Speaker 1: recognize it in myself. I think I wasn't ready to
Speaker 1: accept that. Postpartum depression can manifest in a lot of
Speaker 1: different ways. You know, it can be those extreme feelings
Speaker 1: of self harm, or it can be this kind of latent,
Speaker 1: insidious depression that lingers.
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry to hear that. That's that's incredible crisis, you.
Speaker 1: Know, I think the conversation around postpartum depression has really
Speaker 1: evolved and expanded in recent years, and I'm happy that
Speaker 1: we are at a place where we feel like we
Speaker 1: can talk about these things. But it's so complicated and layered.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: Yes, there are the moments of crisis, which I experienced
Speaker 1: at times in my own journey, but there's also this
Speaker 1: other side of the postpartum brain that I think is
Speaker 1: worthy of celebration, Like my capacity for thought, my capacity
Speaker 1: for tasks expanded in miraculous ways when I became a parent,
Speaker 1: and those are things that I still take with me
Speaker 1: and carry with me into my life outside of my home.
Speaker 1: And that's what doctor Niki Pensac's book Rattled is all about.
Speaker 1: I mean, she's all about rebranding the mommy brain and
Speaker 1: reminding us that there are so many cognitive benefits to
Speaker 1: celebrate here.
Speaker 2: Today's episode is definitely one you'll want to share with
Speaker 2: a mother in your life, but it's not limited to
Speaker 2: biological mothers. I think it's great for caregivers LGBTQ parents.
Speaker 3: A lot of people can reap the benefits of this episode.
Speaker 1: Go ahead and bring her in, doctor Nicki Panzac. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the bright Side.
Speaker 5: Thanks for having me welcome.
Speaker 3: This is not the first time that we've met you.
Speaker 2: We got to meet you at Shinaway last year, and
Speaker 2: I really loved connecting with you.
Speaker 3: You had such a bright spirit.
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4: It was so fun to be there and be at
Speaker 4: your live recording and participate. I mean it was just
Speaker 4: fantastic and the whole event was just amazing.
Speaker 1: So so inspiring, right, and like I felt so hyped up.
Speaker 1: I did.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I did as well, and just connected with so
Speaker 4: many fabulous women like you two, and just excited to
Speaker 4: be here.
Speaker 1: Well, you gave us both a copy of your book
Speaker 1: at Shinawa. I have it right here. It's called Rattled,
Speaker 1: How to Calm New mom Anxiety with the Power of
Speaker 1: the Postpartum Brain. And I read the book and I
Speaker 1: just really appreciated the positive spin, like the rebrand of
Speaker 1: the postpartum brain, because we've been we've been told how
Speaker 1: negative it is and oh, you got to prepare for
Speaker 1: how much your brain is going to change in such
Speaker 1: a negative way. But you brought so much positivity to it.
Speaker 1: And we're going to get into that, but first, let's
Speaker 1: talk about your background a little bit. So, Nikki, you're
Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist who specializes in treating postpartum. You were
Speaker 1: trained at Yale and Harvard certified and perinatal mental health.
Speaker 1: So your resume says that you should have been one
Speaker 1: hundred percent prepared for everything that comes with motherhood. But
Speaker 1: the reality is so much different, right, Like what surprised
Speaker 1: you the most about that transition into motherhood that you
Speaker 1: could have never prepared for?
Speaker 4: Oh? I mean so many things, but I think my
Speaker 4: story really began, you know, as all great stories begin,
Speaker 4: on the floor crying in my closet, and I was
Speaker 4: It was a real, you know, doctor becomes patient moment
Speaker 4: where I was diagnosing myself in real time and calling
Speaker 4: my doctor in tears, telling my doctor, I'm ready for
Speaker 4: I need postpartum treatment. And that was just an incredibly
Speaker 4: humbling moment for me where I felt like, if I
Speaker 4: have all the resources at my fingertips, you know what's
Speaker 4: going on out there. You know, I wasn't immune, and
Speaker 4: so I got treatment very quickly because I did what
Speaker 4: I instruct my patients to do, right. I set up
Speaker 4: my proactive postpart of mental health care team and they
Speaker 4: were ready to go so that I was able to
Speaker 4: get treated very quickly. And then I went from really
Speaker 4: rock bottom to thriving in a short period of time,
Speaker 4: And as an academic researcher, I went back to the science.
Speaker 4: I really wanted to understand how did I go from
Speaker 4: rock bottom to this place of feeling better than ever
Speaker 4: motivated in the world's worst circumstances. So COVID was going
Speaker 4: on at the time as well, and I really uncovered
Speaker 4: a story that's not being told but that everyone needs
Speaker 4: to hear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're going to get more into your personal story
Speaker 2: in a little bit, but I want to talk about
Speaker 2: what's going on in our brains during this critical time,
Speaker 2: because you write that the peripartum phase and transition to
Speaker 2: motherhood is the single greatest amount of neurobiological change a
Speaker 2: mother can go through in the shortest period of time.
Speaker 2: That's so huge. So what's happening to our brains during
Speaker 2: this period and how does that affect us?
Speaker 4: So when a woman becomes a mother, your brain, your body,
Speaker 4: your relationships, your psyche, everything changes in a short amount
Speaker 4: of time. Your brain basically creates new neural networks, fine tunes,
Speaker 4: and primes itself for taking care of a baby. And
Speaker 4: so what mothers don't realize is that it's a complete
Speaker 4: overhaul of your brain and things are running more efficiently,
Speaker 4: but it sort of takes time to get there. So
Speaker 4: Yale has now named this a neurocognitive developmental phase called matrescence.
Speaker 4: And when you go through this phase, it's not just
Speaker 4: like the mommy brain stigma, right, feeling foggy and forgetful.
Speaker 4: That's a very small part of this, but really your
Speaker 4: brain is on a path to brilliance. And what we
Speaker 4: want to do is set up mothers for success, right,
Speaker 4: so that they can sort of surf this tide of neuroplasticity.
Speaker 4: So it's growing new neural networks and shedding useless ones printing.
Speaker 4: So it's basically like Marie condoing the mind to give
Speaker 4: moms a leg up and caregiving. That's the best way
Speaker 4: I can say it. Honestly, That analogy is so good.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: How is our brain reorganizing and evolving itself to better
Speaker 2: support a new baby.
Speaker 4: So it's fine tuning and priming itself for new learning.
Speaker 4: And basically, when you think about it, you when you
Speaker 4: become a mom, there's so much new learning, and so
Speaker 4: this is where it gets into mothers get you know,
Speaker 4: feel defeated and like a failure if they don't know
Speaker 4: how to do something. But it's like, wait, you've never
Speaker 4: done this before, and so you're building a new neural network.
Speaker 4: I give the example of like when you're changing a diaper, right,
Speaker 4: you've never done that before, but now you're learning, Okay,
Speaker 4: what diaper works best? What does coverage for blowouts? How
Speaker 4: tight should it go? Oh, there's a rash, I got
Speaker 4: a diaper cream, And like you're basically building a whole
Speaker 4: neural network around this very simple task. But it's not
Speaker 4: simple at all. So imagine a million of those you
Speaker 4: know going on and you're just building neural networks in
Speaker 4: your brain.
Speaker 2: Does that explain like I've heard the phrase mommy brain
Speaker 2: or like brain fog? Does that explain some of that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so mommy brain really gets a bad rap and
Speaker 4: it needs a rebrand. Right, So we think of mommy brain,
Speaker 4: we think of the subjective experience of feeling foggy and forgetful.
Speaker 4: It's the lapse in memory, and that subjective feeling is
Speaker 4: very real. So I want to validate that you are
Speaker 4: actually feeling that way and that's happening. But the thing
Speaker 4: is is that when you look at the research, there's
Speaker 4: very weak support for any differences in actual memory functioning
Speaker 4: when you look at mothers compared to non mothers. Right, So,
Speaker 4: and now we're seeing some studies that actually show some
Speaker 4: cognitive boosts and mothers that are actually better at visual
Speaker 4: memory and problem solving and efficiency and empathy, and so
Speaker 4: having the subjective experience of mommy brain, the fogginess and
Speaker 4: forgetfulness is actually just due to the increased mental load
Speaker 4: and lack of sleep.
Speaker 5: So that's why you're feeling that way.
Speaker 1: Okay, I know you just said it, but I have
Speaker 1: to ask because it's like it's hard for me to understand.
Speaker 1: So there are cognitive benefits that are happening in our
Speaker 1: brains during this MATRESCNS period, but when I'm living it,
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel that way. I just feel like a
Speaker 1: hot mess.
Speaker 5: Of course.
Speaker 1: Why why is that?
Speaker 4: Because it's a complete overhaul of everything, your psyche, your brain,
Speaker 4: your identity, your emotions. You have all these new experiences
Speaker 4: and your brain needs time to catch up, and that's
Speaker 4: why they call it an adaptation. So physically, you become
Speaker 4: a mother overnight, but the actual psychological process takes longer,
Speaker 4: and so we need to validate that even though you
Speaker 4: feel this way, it's actually just on a path to
Speaker 4: brilliance and you're developing new skills. You're rising to every
Speaker 4: relentless challenge twenty four to seven because you don't have
Speaker 4: a choice, mom, you know, and your kids are just
Speaker 4: throwing things out you left and right, and you're just
Speaker 4: figuring it out. Right, Yeah, you're figuring out how to
Speaker 4: soothe them in the middle of the night. Right, a
Speaker 4: baby crying? Is it going to be a bounce or
Speaker 4: a rock? Are they hungry?
Speaker 5: Is it colic?
Speaker 1: Is it gas?
Speaker 5: Is the mixed formula to concentrated? I mean these are
Speaker 5: a lot. You know. Motherhood is more cerebral than ever.
Speaker 5: We're like constantly problem solving. And as you're doing that,
Speaker 5: because you've.
Speaker 4: Never done it before, your brain is developing at an
Speaker 4: exponential rate and actually in a prime state of neuroplasticity.
Speaker 5: This means that it's primed for learning.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: So if you think about it in adolescence, those teen
Speaker 4: experiences are like etched in our brains, right because there's
Speaker 4: so much neuroplasticity going on, and so the same is
Speaker 4: true for motherhood, right, And it's so like, what do
Speaker 4: we want to etch in our brains. We want to
Speaker 4: etch the skills that we're going to need to take
Speaker 4: care of our baby. And as we're taking care of
Speaker 4: our baby, our baby is teaching us how to take
Speaker 4: care of them. And so we're learning. Our brain's evolving right,
Speaker 4: and it's becoming better than ever, However, there are so
Speaker 4: many landmines that get in the way. So one in
Speaker 4: five mothers experience postpartum birth trauma. In becoming a mother
Speaker 4: is its own normative trauma because it assaults every system
Speaker 4: of your body in a very quick period of time.
Speaker 4: And so I really think that society is not prepared
Speaker 4: for mothers. And it's funny because I mean it's not funny,
Speaker 4: but really the most unprepared are actual mothers, and we
Speaker 4: can do so much better. We need to educate them
Speaker 4: on the power that they have under the hood, what
Speaker 4: they're working with, and that it takes time, and to
Speaker 4: validate how challenging it is, but that it is evolving
Speaker 4: and that they're doing it right. Right, This is how
Speaker 4: it goes. Baby bonding takes longer than you think. Months actually,
Speaker 4: but our social media feeds they show us pictures of
Speaker 4: like we're supposed to love our baby overnight. Right, It's
Speaker 4: just this majestic feeling, and I think we get moments
Speaker 4: of bliss, but it's kind of hard to feel blissful
Speaker 4: when you have spit up in your hair and you're
Speaker 4: running on no sleep.
Speaker 1: It's unrequited that in that early stage. You know, as
Speaker 1: you were talking, my brain was drawing parallels between the
Speaker 1: dis comfort of the MATRESSNS period psychologically with imposter syndrome,
Speaker 1: because now the way I view imposter syndrome. And it's funny,
Speaker 1: we talked about this at that panel at shine Away
Speaker 1: when we first met. I view it as a gap
Speaker 1: in my skill set and where I think I want
Speaker 1: to be. And there's a period where you know, I'm
Speaker 1: accepting a new opportunity and I'm learning new skills. But
Speaker 1: that period is still uncomfortable because I feel a bit
Speaker 1: out of my depths. But at the same time, there
Speaker 1: is brilliance brewing and I am working towards a better
Speaker 1: version of myself. And it almost sounds like that's like
Speaker 1: what the brain is going through exactly.
Speaker 4: I mean, neuroplasticity happens all the time, right, and so
Speaker 4: therapy can change the brain. Life experiences can change the
Speaker 4: brain exercise trauma, you know, So we have that to
Speaker 4: work with. And as you're rising to every new challenge,
Speaker 4: like what you're saying, you're building that neural network. You're
Speaker 4: building lots of neural networks around this new experience and
Speaker 4: you're learning and growing and the development is really like
Speaker 4: an upward spiral, and so you're taking advantage of that
Speaker 4: and moving forward and you're coming to each new situation
Speaker 4: with more expertise, more coping skills, more neural power behind it.
Speaker 4: That will just continue to propel you forward, even though
Speaker 4: at times you probably hit the same emotions where it's
Speaker 4: like you're having that feeling of imposter syndrome, right, but
Speaker 4: you're actually not moving backwards. You're not back to that
Speaker 4: beginner stage. You're moving forward.
Speaker 2: We have to take a quick break, but we'll be
Speaker 2: right back with doctor Nicole Pensack. And we're back with
Speaker 2: doctor Nicole Pensack.
Speaker 1: So how long does matrescence last? And you mentioned this
Speaker 1: word before, but I'm just going to say the definition
Speaker 1: that you have written in your book for Clarity, you
Speaker 1: call matressens the process of becoming a mother, the physical, psychological,
Speaker 1: and emotional changes you go through after the birth. Of
Speaker 1: your child, which is largely unexported in the medical community.
Speaker 1: How long does that period last?
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it goes on for a very
Speaker 4: long time, but I would say the height of the
Speaker 4: neuroplastic changes occur within the.
Speaker 5: First two years.
Speaker 1: Got it.
Speaker 4: But as you know, we as a field in research
Speaker 4: don't have a lot of data studying pregnant women and mothers.
Speaker 4: You know, only four percent of research funding goes to
Speaker 4: women's health studies. And I think we'll do better and
Speaker 4: understand more about it, but really the longest term follow
Speaker 4: up we have for mothers is two years, right, So
Speaker 4: that's what we say when we think of like how
Speaker 4: long does it last or long term effects. But I'll
Speaker 4: tell you I have a five and seven year old.
Speaker 4: I'm still going through matrescin. Okay, I was going through
Speaker 4: it last week when I was when my son woke
Speaker 4: up in the middle of the night and he had
Speaker 4: an allergy, and I was trying to figure out what
Speaker 4: it was and doing the mental calculations and giving him
Speaker 4: medicine and trying to make him feel better and soothe him.
Speaker 5: So it just keeps going.
Speaker 2: They keep knowing how difficult postpartum can be. What do
Speaker 2: you think new moms can do to prepare themselves for
Speaker 2: this period.
Speaker 4: So in order to do the most amount of good
Speaker 4: for the greatest amount of people, I always recommend setting
Speaker 4: yourself up with a proactive postpartum mental health care team.
Speaker 4: That means a therapist and prescriber that specialize in postpartum
Speaker 4: mental health. And the reason being is that you have
Speaker 4: your team waiting for you. You establish care with them,
Speaker 4: so you know who you want to work with, you
Speaker 4: know who you can trust, and even if you don't
Speaker 4: need them, they're there for you. They understand your personal
Speaker 4: risk factors that we know there are some for postpartum,
Speaker 4: but even if you have no risk factors, you're still
Speaker 4: at risk forgetting postpartum. And so what happens is mothers,
Speaker 4: you know, no one thinks they're going to get postpartum.
Speaker 4: I certainly was one of them, and having that team
Speaker 4: on standby allowed me to not have to scramble last
Speaker 4: minute to find a doctor, wait three months to get
Speaker 4: an appointment, or you know, figure out who I want
Speaker 4: to work with, or you know, trial and error that stuff.
Speaker 4: And when you're in the heat or in the thick
Speaker 4: of postpartum, you can't problem solve. And so I think
Speaker 4: we would catch a lot more women if we had
Speaker 4: that mental health care team in place, even if you
Speaker 4: don't need it, because not to mention you're going through
Speaker 4: so much. So even if you're not having a postpartum
Speaker 4: crisis or postpartum mental health symptoms, you're still going through
Speaker 4: this normative trauma, this huge adjustment, this huge developmental phase.
Speaker 4: It's nice to have a thought partner to sort of
Speaker 4: think about these things, not to mention all of the
Speaker 4: new emotional experiences that you're having, like mom rage, mom shame,
Speaker 4: mom guilt right in truth, absolutely intrusive thoughts.
Speaker 5: Ninety percent people have them.
Speaker 4: Back to work, transitions, marital changes, division of labor.
Speaker 5: I mean, there's just so much going on.
Speaker 4: And so I actually think the postpartum period is an
Speaker 4: opportune time to go to therapy because your brain is
Speaker 4: primed for new learning. So it's new learning for your
Speaker 4: baby and how to take care of your baby. Like
Speaker 4: your brain biologically is working with you, know, for you
Speaker 4: to help you take care of your baby, but it's
Speaker 4: working against you to take care of yourself, right, because
Speaker 4: that's not biologically advantageous. Right, you have to keep that
Speaker 4: baby alive, and that's very important. I'm saying. Let's you know,
Speaker 4: we have a saying in neuroscience, it's like neurin's a
Speaker 4: fire together, wire together. So if you're learning how to
Speaker 4: take care of your baby, let's also get in there
Speaker 4: some strategies and skills to take care of yourself. And
Speaker 4: I do believe that my treatment went that much further.
Speaker 4: This was another part of where I felt like I
Speaker 4: was thriving because I was in a prime state of
Speaker 4: new learning.
Speaker 5: My brain was like a sponge.
Speaker 1: That's such good advice to get the mental health team
Speaker 1: in place beforehand. No one told me that I would
Speaker 1: have hugely benefited from that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've actually never heard anybody say.
Speaker 1: That, right, I haven't either, Danielle.
Speaker 4: Honestly, that's the I mean, if nothing else, that's my mission,
Speaker 4: right to get to catch more mothers because so many
Speaker 4: mothers are silently suffering, and we know that one in
Speaker 4: five experience postpartum. We have a maternal mental health crisis,
Speaker 4: but we know in the field that it's such an
Speaker 4: underrepresentation of what's actually going on because mothers are afraid
Speaker 4: of reporting their symptoms for fear that they'll be viewed
Speaker 4: as unfit right, or that they're doing it wrong or
Speaker 4: something's wrong with them. They just think they're failing, and
Speaker 4: it's like, really, your brain is just going through an
Speaker 4: immense overhaul that while these neuroplastic changes are happening, you're
Speaker 4: with every heightened neuroplastic phase, you're also much more vulnerable
Speaker 4: to experience the risks that come along, and so your
Speaker 4: brain is actually more vulnerable to experience postpartum. Right, it's
Speaker 4: nothing that you did, so I want to validate that.
Speaker 3: Where do you land on medication?
Speaker 4: I think it can be life saving if you need it. Absolutely,
Speaker 4: was that part of your treatment plan. It was, you know,
Speaker 4: being an expert in doing therapy day and day out.
Speaker 4: I kind of knew what level I was at, and
Speaker 4: therapy worked with my first baby, Right, it was sort
Speaker 4: of a mild postpartum experience. It's a mild post part
Speaker 4: of most day. And then with the second one, I
Speaker 4: was actually in crisis and I was like, you know what,
Speaker 4: I need medication. I knew enough to know that I
Speaker 4: had kind of reached that threshold and I wasn't sleeping
Speaker 4: for five days, so I didn't know that was actually
Speaker 4: physically possible, but my brain I could not shut off
Speaker 4: because it was the height of COVID and my son
Speaker 4: was in the NICU for five weeks, and then two
Speaker 4: weeks later we were on lockdown. My husband is a physician,
Speaker 4: and so he was getting text from overseas, and so
Speaker 4: I was just terrified and mentally planning how I was
Speaker 4: going to keep everyone alive in the house, including myself.
Speaker 1: Does postpartum depression get worse the more babies you have?
Speaker 1: It can?
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're at a higher risk each subsequent pregnancy, but
Speaker 4: also pregnancies can be different, so it's not guaranteed, but
Speaker 4: I would say that there's a slightly higher risk.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I experienced that, my friend. Yeah, my first one was
Speaker 1: pretty mild. I was able to make it through that
Speaker 1: like baby blues period, but the second one, I was
Speaker 1: in crisis mode.
Speaker 4: How early on was that for you when you experience
Speaker 4: the crisis days? Days, okay, a week and then it
Speaker 4: just didn't stop.
Speaker 1: It It did subside, okay after So baby blues is
Speaker 1: this period of acute hormonal change and distress within like
Speaker 1: the first what two to four weeks after?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 4: No, no, no, absolutely not.
Speaker 1: So what is the timeframe days?
Speaker 4: If you have symptoms two weeks out or longer. That's postpartum.
Speaker 4: That's postpartum, got it.
Speaker 1: So so baby blues is just from birth till two weeks.
Speaker 4: Yes, I would say even like the first week, right,
Speaker 4: it really happens like in three days god after, and
Speaker 4: then it lasts for several days. If it's lasting more
Speaker 4: than a week or two, you're entering postpartum.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I felt like mine did subside. It
Speaker 1: peaked during that period, during that baby blues period, but
Speaker 1: then it did subside and it perhaps evolved into just
Speaker 1: like this low grade postpartum depression. Got it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that happens too.
Speaker 4: Well. There's a lot of hormonal changes that happen, like
Speaker 4: you said, and we see two upticks in postpartum. The
Speaker 4: first is right after the baby's born if you don't breastfeed,
Speaker 4: because it's really a sharp drop in And I don't
Speaker 4: know if this was your plan or not, but or
Speaker 4: what happened for you, but it's usually an uptick right
Speaker 4: after the baby's born if you don't breastfeed, and then
Speaker 4: also another uptick when you wean from breastfeeding. So that's
Speaker 4: why it's good to have a post part of mental
Speaker 4: health provider that knows what they're looking at, and can
Speaker 4: also time the follow up appointments at vulnerable times depending
Speaker 4: on what's going on developmental phase wise with the baby,
Speaker 4: but also for you know, the mom and breastfeeding.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really appreciated this part in your book when
Speaker 1: you address distorted thoughts and the times at which we
Speaker 1: are more susceptible to those, and you write that it's
Speaker 1: easy to think distorted thoughts when we're depressed to anxious
Speaker 1: or not feeling at home in our bodies. What are
Speaker 1: some of the most common cognitive distortions that you've come
Speaker 1: across with mothers in your work.
Speaker 5: That's a great question.
Speaker 4: I mean, I hear all the time, you know, I'm failing,
Speaker 4: I'm not cut out to be a mother. This isn't
Speaker 4: for me. It's you know, I'm no good at this.
Speaker 4: So it's a lot of black and white thinking. I
Speaker 4: hear a lot of you know, my brain is mush,
Speaker 4: I'm not functioning well. Meanwhile, you're functioning really well. You're
Speaker 4: just functioning differently, and we kind of have to reframe that.
Speaker 4: But I think, you know, anxiety and depression and postpartum
Speaker 4: can really distort our perception of things, and so there's
Speaker 4: the black and white thinking, the all are nothing, the perfect,
Speaker 4: the failure, feeling down on yourself. That really just so
Speaker 4: many women are suffering with that, and especially I have
Speaker 4: to say women that are very high functioning, they actually
Speaker 4: are more vulnerable to experience postpartum anxiety because they're the
Speaker 4: women that are like CEOs in their personal life, like
Speaker 4: they're in charge, you know, they've they've got everything set right,
Speaker 4: and so they fall harder in the postpart and period
Speaker 4: because they're like, wait a minute, I'm a beginner. I'm
Speaker 4: not comfortable being a beginner. You have to get comfortable
Speaker 4: with being a beginner at motherhood. You'd never done it before,
Speaker 4: and when you have another kid, you haven't done it
Speaker 4: with two kids, so it's like constantly knocking you back
Speaker 4: and you're like, wait a minute, Like when am I
Speaker 4: going to feel the competence that I feel in every
Speaker 4: other facet of my life?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's time for another short break, but don't go anywhere.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back to wellness Wednesday with doctor Nicole Pensack.
Speaker 1: And we're back with doctor Nicole Pensack. Well, what I
Speaker 1: found empowering about your writing is that you offer solutions,
Speaker 1: particularly about actions that we can take to really take
Speaker 1: advantage of the neuroplasticity of this stage. So, what are
Speaker 1: some examples of self directed neural plasticity. What are ways
Speaker 1: to stimulate the new neural pathways.
Speaker 4: So I think one of the most important ways, and
Speaker 4: sort of at baseline, is, you know, get postpart and
Speaker 4: mental health treatment right. So we want this process to
Speaker 4: go right if you have postpartum you know, So that's
Speaker 4: just like the tip of the iceberg. In general, you know,
Speaker 4: exercise and sleep and taking care of yourself, that's all
Speaker 4: going to promote neuroplasticity. These are good things for your brain.
Speaker 4: More specifically, when I talk about self directed neuroplasticity again,
Speaker 4: I'm talking about the neurons that fire together, wire together.
Speaker 4: And so when you're learning to take care of your baby,
Speaker 4: you're learning also how to take care of yourself.
Speaker 5: And I talk.
Speaker 4: About the power of positive emotions through the broaden and
Speaker 4: build theory. So I use this actually with mom guilt.
Speaker 4: So I get a lot of moms come to me
Speaker 4: with mom guilt and I help them kind of double
Speaker 4: down on that mom guilt. So mom guilt says, you know,
Speaker 4: I shouldn't go out and enjoy this dinner with the girls. Right,
Speaker 4: I'm going to check the baby monitor. I should be home.
Speaker 4: I feel bad leaving the baby. But if you do that,
Speaker 4: you're not getting the benefits of the positive emotional experiences
Speaker 4: that you would get when you're at dinner with your girlfriends, right,
Speaker 4: and the replenishment you're refilling the tank.
Speaker 5: This is good for you.
Speaker 4: The best predictor of childhood mental health is actually maternal
Speaker 4: mental health. So I wouldn't help my patient basically lean
Speaker 4: into that moment right and get into the present, Like,
Speaker 4: put your phone away. How do we make this bigger
Speaker 4: for you? How do we enhance your senses? Do you
Speaker 4: need to order your favorite dessert, your drink, You have
Speaker 4: to have something that you want to talk about that's
Speaker 4: really fun. But we need to get you into the
Speaker 4: moment so you're actually getting the positive emotional experiences that
Speaker 4: are going to help these neuroplastic changes move along. Right,
Speaker 4: And I talk about mom flow, So you're probably familiar
Speaker 4: with just the general concept of flow.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: When you're immersed in an activity, it's a transcendent state
Speaker 4: and you lose your time, right, you're just kind of
Speaker 4: immersed in it. And back when I was, you know,
Speaker 4: working in academia, I would enjoy hours at a time,
Speaker 4: you know, writing being uninterrupted, right, And then when I
Speaker 4: became a mom, I mean everything's interrupted and I missed flow,
Speaker 4: right because I was like really rewarding, you know, I
Speaker 4: felt really creative, like bursts of energy and just like
Speaker 4: being immersed in the task, like it's very healing. And
Speaker 4: so I had to teach myself how to get into
Speaker 4: mom flow. I call it mom flow. Just teaching myself
Speaker 4: how to get into flow more quickly, you know, like
Speaker 4: in a half hour, in short bursts.
Speaker 5: And it takes practice.
Speaker 4: But really, these positive emotional experiences are what's going to
Speaker 4: bring you, not just to survive, but to thrive. Right.
Speaker 4: And so when I have patients I work with them,
Speaker 4: I want them to feel better than ever. Right.
Speaker 5: Post part of mental health care is like just the
Speaker 5: tip of the iceberg. Right, there's so much more.
Speaker 4: That's why I really want to educate mothers and society
Speaker 4: and you know, partners that this is a profound developmental phase.
Speaker 5: There's it's a missed opportunity here.
Speaker 4: It's brilliant in the making, but we need to nurture it,
Speaker 4: we need to help it go right.
Speaker 2: That short burst of creativity or energy that you call
Speaker 2: mom flow is so awesome. I feel like even non
Speaker 2: moms can prepare and try to learn how to do that.
Speaker 3: It feels so efficient to me.
Speaker 4: Nikki, thank you for saying that. I mean, that was
Speaker 4: very intentional in the book. I tried to make this
Speaker 4: book really life advice, right. So even though it says,
Speaker 4: you know, harness the power of the postpartum brain, it's
Speaker 4: really for moms, dads, partners, you know. I get contacted
Speaker 4: from you know, grandmothers that are like, I wish I
Speaker 4: had this book, but actually it's just good life skills, right,
Speaker 4: And so that was really intentional to make it general
Speaker 4: enough so that everyone could benefit, because I do believe
Speaker 4: everyone needs to understand and it's you know, backed by science,
Speaker 4: and I bring in a lot of cognitive behavioral therapeutic
Speaker 4: techniques that are evidence based. This is our gold standard
Speaker 4: treatment for things like anxiety depression management and really just
Speaker 4: good strategies to have one hand.
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of everybody, something I found so interesting was
Speaker 2: that some of these brain changes can occur in fathers
Speaker 2: and non biological caregivers.
Speaker 3: Also. That is so fascinating. How does that happen, that's right.
Speaker 4: So what happens is there's a great researcher in New York,
Speaker 4: Ruth Feldman, and she identified the caregiver network in the brain.
Speaker 4: And so what happens for fathers and non biological caregivers
Speaker 4: is that it's a top down approach where they're learning
Speaker 4: and actually better at social learning. So fathers are better
Speaker 4: at social learning with their kids because they're learning how
Speaker 4: to take care of their kids through experience, right where mothers.
Speaker 5: They get more of a biological push.
Speaker 4: And so it's a bottom up approach, right, So you
Speaker 4: get the biological basis, the hormone changes and everything, but
Speaker 4: fathers and non biological caregivers get this as well. And actually,
Speaker 4: the more immersed you are in taking care of the
Speaker 4: baby or the children, the more neuroplastic changes that you have.
Speaker 4: So it really does change your brain. And this is
Speaker 4: why I'm talking about like neuroplastic changes can happen just
Speaker 4: from experiences as well. It just so occurs that mothers
Speaker 4: have this developmental phase where it's just like, you know,
Speaker 4: an overflow of neuroplasticity.
Speaker 1: Well, to wrap up this incredibly insightful conversation, Nikki, you've
Speaker 1: said that mommy brain needs a rebrand, so you have
Speaker 1: the floor. What is your vision for the mommy brain rebrand?
Speaker 1: Is there a new name that you think it deserves.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I'm trying to get mothers to you know,
Speaker 4: when they do something fabulous, right, like when they figure
Speaker 4: out how to soothe their baby, when they problem solve
Speaker 4: in a way that makes them feel powerful, when they
Speaker 4: nail that first back to work meeting, when they you know,
Speaker 4: are able to get their toddler and baby out the
Speaker 4: door at the same time and make that appointment on time.
Speaker 4: That like they turn to themselves and they're like, that's
Speaker 4: my mom brain. Like, my mom brain is helping me
Speaker 4: do that. Like when they have successes, that's their mom brain.
Speaker 4: That's the brilliance of it. And it's not just this
Speaker 4: derogatory stigma of the fogginess and forgetfulness. I think that
Speaker 4: that it gets a bad rap and it's like, no,
Speaker 4: you're when you're doing brilliant things, like that's your mom brain.
Speaker 1: Maybe it should be mom brilliance. I love it.
Speaker 5: Let's do it.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 3: I like that, Doctor Nikki, thank you so much for
Speaker 3: joining us.
Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Doctor Nicole Pensac is a clinical psychologist and the author
Speaker 1: of rattlet How to Calm New mom Anxiety with the
Speaker 1: Power of the Postpartum Brain.
Speaker 2: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we've got another edition
Speaker 2: of shelf Life. We're joined by author Alegra Goodman to
Speaker 2: talk about her new novel, Isla, which is the February
Speaker 2: pick for Reese's Book Club.
Speaker 1: Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
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