WEBVTT - The Brilliance of the Postpartum Brain 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:07.360 Hello Sunshine, Hey fam Today, on the bright side, we're 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:11.240 unlocking the secret superpowers of the mommy brain. You've heard 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:15.240 about the brain fog or over stimulation, but clinical psychologist 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:17.880 doctor Nicole Pensac is here to tell us why we 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.560 should be celebrating the cognitive benefits of the postpartum brain. 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:25.079 It's Wednesday, February twenty six. I'm Simone Boyce. 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:27.800 I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright side from 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:29.640 Hello Sunshine. 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.400 Okay, Danielle, you know how much I love cool vocabulary. 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:36.919 Right of course, I have a whole list of your 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:38.560 vocab written down in my notes. 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.640 Fad verdant comes to mind. 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:45.400 Verdant is a good one. I have a new favorite. 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:46.479 Word, Okay, give it to me. 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:50.400 And this word is so important because it's often hard 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:55.400 to describe just how vast and transformative the physical and 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:59.800 physiological changes are that come with motherhood. So there is 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:05.160 the term called matrescence, and it literally means the physiological 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.640 changes that happen in our brain, happened in our bodies everything, 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:13.759 and encapsulates this huge life shift into motherhood goodness. And 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:17.200 that's exactly what doctor Nicole Pensack talks about in her book, 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.000 it's called Rattled, and honestly, it is one of these 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:23.680 books that I'm keeping in my arsenal whenever I have 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:25.920 a friend who is about to give birth, because I 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:28.720 just think it's essential reading for anyone who's about to 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:30.160 enter into that life stage. 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:31.000 Absolutely. 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:35.360 And doctor Nicole Pensick is a clinical psychologist, and she's 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:39.000 someone who's both studied the postpartum experience and gone through 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:41.560 it herself. She's a mom. And you went through at 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.600 some moment. What was that period of time post earth 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.440 like for you? Well, for me, it varied so much 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.760 between the two kids. I think the first time I 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.000 went through postpartum, I was filled with this like euphoria 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.840 and bliss and I really just wanted to soak up 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:02.360 every moment. I think the second time, and the research 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:07.400 reflects this, postpartum hit me a lot harder and I 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:13.880 really wasn't prepared for that. I had heard about postpartum, 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:17.040 but it's almost it's so hard to recognize it in 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:19.959 yourself because you kind of you minimize your own experience 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:20.440 and you're like. 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:22.400 Oh, no, this wouldn't happen to me. Of course it 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:24.720 would happen to someone else, but this isn't. There's no 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:27.960 way this is actually happening to me, And it's actually 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:32.000 taken me years of reflection to look back and realize, Yeah, 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:34.320 I think that was my experience. I think I was 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:36.079 dealing with postpartum depression. 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:37.560 What were you feeling? 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:42.120 There is a heightened sense of depression that I experienced 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:44.480 in the first two weeks after giving birth to my 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:50.920 second child, so much so that I called a suicide 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:53.840 hotline because I didn't know who to talk to. I 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:57.720 was in a time of crisis and I just needed 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:01.560 to speak to a mental health professional immediately. So that's 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:06.680 like the extreme side of it. That extreme crisis situation 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:11.600 eventually faded away, and I think what it evolved into 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:17.240 was this very low grade postpartum depression. And so when 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.040 I say that, I it was hard for me to 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.720 recognize it in myself. I think I wasn't ready to 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:27.480 accept that. Postpartum depression can manifest in a lot of 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:31.160 different ways. You know, it can be those extreme feelings 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:36.680 of self harm, or it can be this kind of latent, 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.800 insidious depression that lingers. 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:47.360 I'm so sorry to hear that. That's that's incredible crisis, you. 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.240 Know, I think the conversation around postpartum depression has really 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:52.920 evolved and expanded in recent years, and I'm happy that 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:55.200 we are at a place where we feel like we 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:59.320 can talk about these things. But it's so complicated and layered. 0:03:59.440 --> 0:03:59.600 Right. 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:06.280 Yes, there are the moments of crisis, which I experienced 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:10.280 at times in my own journey, but there's also this 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:14.320 other side of the postpartum brain that I think is 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:22.400 worthy of celebration, Like my capacity for thought, my capacity 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:27.440 for tasks expanded in miraculous ways when I became a parent, 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:30.400 and those are things that I still take with me 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.280 and carry with me into my life outside of my home. 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.279 And that's what doctor Niki Pensac's book Rattled is all about. 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:42.120 I mean, she's all about rebranding the mommy brain and 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.479 reminding us that there are so many cognitive benefits to 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:46.320 celebrate here. 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.360 Today's episode is definitely one you'll want to share with 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:51.600 a mother in your life, but it's not limited to 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:56.720 biological mothers. I think it's great for caregivers LGBTQ parents. 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.640 A lot of people can reap the benefits of this episode. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.640 Go ahead and bring her in, doctor Nicki Panzac. Welcome 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:03.520 to the bright Side. 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:05.280 Thanks for having me welcome. 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:07.840 This is not the first time that we've met you. 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.720 We got to meet you at Shinaway last year, and 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:12.800 I really loved connecting with you. 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:14.159 You had such a bright spirit. 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:15.000 Oh, thank you. 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:16.480 It was so fun to be there and be at 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.479 your live recording and participate. I mean it was just 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.600 fantastic and the whole event was just amazing. 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.040 So so inspiring, right, and like I felt so hyped up. 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:25.600 I did. 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.240 Yeah, I did as well, and just connected with so 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.279 many fabulous women like you two, and just excited to 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:31.640 be here. 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:34.159 Well, you gave us both a copy of your book 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.839 at Shinawa. I have it right here. It's called Rattled, 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.719 How to Calm New mom Anxiety with the Power of 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:42.520 the Postpartum Brain. And I read the book and I 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.279 just really appreciated the positive spin, like the rebrand of 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.560 the postpartum brain, because we've been we've been told how 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:51.440 negative it is and oh, you got to prepare for 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.360 how much your brain is going to change in such 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.520 a negative way. But you brought so much positivity to it. 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:58.560 And we're going to get into that, but first, let's 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:00.960 talk about your background a little bit. So, Nikki, you're 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.360 a clinical psychologist who specializes in treating postpartum. You were 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:08.279 trained at Yale and Harvard certified and perinatal mental health. 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.400 So your resume says that you should have been one 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:15.640 hundred percent prepared for everything that comes with motherhood. But 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:19.839 the reality is so much different, right, Like what surprised 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:23.120 you the most about that transition into motherhood that you 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:24.360 could have never prepared for? 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:27.760 Oh? I mean so many things, but I think my 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:30.600 story really began, you know, as all great stories begin, 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:34.200 on the floor crying in my closet, and I was 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.960 It was a real, you know, doctor becomes patient moment 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:42.160 where I was diagnosing myself in real time and calling 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.640 my doctor in tears, telling my doctor, I'm ready for 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:51.360 I need postpartum treatment. And that was just an incredibly 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:55.039 humbling moment for me where I felt like, if I 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:57.320 have all the resources at my fingertips, you know what's 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:00.440 going on out there. You know, I wasn't immune, and 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:04.120 so I got treatment very quickly because I did what 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:06.719 I instruct my patients to do, right. I set up 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.240 my proactive postpart of mental health care team and they 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.280 were ready to go so that I was able to 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.080 get treated very quickly. And then I went from really 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.760 rock bottom to thriving in a short period of time, 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.480 And as an academic researcher, I went back to the science. 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:23.320 I really wanted to understand how did I go from 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:25.840 rock bottom to this place of feeling better than ever 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.480 motivated in the world's worst circumstances. So COVID was going 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.920 on at the time as well, and I really uncovered 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:35.880 a story that's not being told but that everyone needs 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:36.200 to hear. 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.360 Yeah, we're going to get more into your personal story 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.440 in a little bit, but I want to talk about 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:45.480 what's going on in our brains during this critical time, 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.920 because you write that the peripartum phase and transition to 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:52.920 motherhood is the single greatest amount of neurobiological change a 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.840 mother can go through in the shortest period of time. 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.600 That's so huge. So what's happening to our brains during 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:01.280 this period and how does that affect us? 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:08.120 So when a woman becomes a mother, your brain, your body, 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.400 your relationships, your psyche, everything changes in a short amount 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:15.760 of time. Your brain basically creates new neural networks, fine tunes, 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:20.440 and primes itself for taking care of a baby. And 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:24.040 so what mothers don't realize is that it's a complete 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:28.000 overhaul of your brain and things are running more efficiently, 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:29.760 but it sort of takes time to get there. So 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:34.680 Yale has now named this a neurocognitive developmental phase called matrescence. 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:38.600 And when you go through this phase, it's not just 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.280 like the mommy brain stigma, right, feeling foggy and forgetful. 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.000 That's a very small part of this, but really your 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:47.760 brain is on a path to brilliance. And what we 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:50.880 want to do is set up mothers for success, right, 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:55.400 so that they can sort of surf this tide of neuroplasticity. 0:08:55.520 --> 0:09:00.640 So it's growing new neural networks and shedding useless ones printing. 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.640 So it's basically like Marie condoing the mind to give 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.559 moms a leg up and caregiving. That's the best way 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:09.360 I can say it. Honestly, That analogy is so good. 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:09.920 I love that. 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:14.240 How is our brain reorganizing and evolving itself to better 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:15.400 support a new baby. 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.319 So it's fine tuning and priming itself for new learning. 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:22.080 And basically, when you think about it, you when you 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:24.520 become a mom, there's so much new learning, and so 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:28.080 this is where it gets into mothers get you know, 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:30.920 feel defeated and like a failure if they don't know 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:32.880 how to do something. But it's like, wait, you've never 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.240 done this before, and so you're building a new neural network. 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.760 I give the example of like when you're changing a diaper, right, 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.960 you've never done that before, but now you're learning, Okay, 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.480 what diaper works best? What does coverage for blowouts? How 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:48.560 tight should it go? Oh, there's a rash, I got 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:50.920 a diaper cream, And like you're basically building a whole 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:53.600 neural network around this very simple task. But it's not 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:58.080 simple at all. So imagine a million of those you 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:01.199 know going on and you're just building neural networks in 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:02.200 your brain. 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:06.120 Does that explain like I've heard the phrase mommy brain 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:09.400 or like brain fog? Does that explain some of that? 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.080 Yeah, so mommy brain really gets a bad rap and 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.960 it needs a rebrand. Right, So we think of mommy brain, 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:19.720 we think of the subjective experience of feeling foggy and forgetful. 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.000 It's the lapse in memory, and that subjective feeling is 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.640 very real. So I want to validate that you are 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.680 actually feeling that way and that's happening. But the thing 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:32.840 is is that when you look at the research, there's 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:36.880 very weak support for any differences in actual memory functioning 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.240 when you look at mothers compared to non mothers. Right, So, 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:42.800 and now we're seeing some studies that actually show some 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.680 cognitive boosts and mothers that are actually better at visual 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:49.440 memory and problem solving and efficiency and empathy, and so 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:53.040 having the subjective experience of mommy brain, the fogginess and 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.160 forgetfulness is actually just due to the increased mental load 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:57.160 and lack of sleep. 0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:58.920 So that's why you're feeling that way. 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.559 Okay, I know you just said it, but I have 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.680 to ask because it's like it's hard for me to understand. 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.800 So there are cognitive benefits that are happening in our 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:14.800 brains during this MATRESCNS period, but when I'm living it, 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:16.520 it doesn't feel that way. I just feel like a 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:17.160 hot mess. 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:17.600 Of course. 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:18.880 Why why is that? 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:25.080 Because it's a complete overhaul of everything, your psyche, your brain, 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:29.439 your identity, your emotions. You have all these new experiences 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:31.520 and your brain needs time to catch up, and that's 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.400 why they call it an adaptation. So physically, you become 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:38.320 a mother overnight, but the actual psychological process takes longer, 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.160 and so we need to validate that even though you 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:44.040 feel this way, it's actually just on a path to 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.360 brilliance and you're developing new skills. You're rising to every 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:49.959 relentless challenge twenty four to seven because you don't have 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:51.840 a choice, mom, you know, and your kids are just 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.680 throwing things out you left and right, and you're just 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.360 figuring it out. Right, Yeah, you're figuring out how to 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.600 soothe them in the middle of the night. Right, a 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:02.640 baby crying? Is it going to be a bounce or 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:04.000 a rock? Are they hungry? 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:04.840 Is it colic? 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:06.000 Is it gas? 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:08.960 Is the mixed formula to concentrated? I mean these are 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.320 a lot. You know. Motherhood is more cerebral than ever. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.600 We're like constantly problem solving. And as you're doing that, 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:16.319 because you've. 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:20.960 Never done it before, your brain is developing at an 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.800 exponential rate and actually in a prime state of neuroplasticity. 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:26.480 This means that it's primed for learning. 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:26.840 Right. 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.720 So if you think about it in adolescence, those teen 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.400 experiences are like etched in our brains, right because there's 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.280 so much neuroplasticity going on, and so the same is 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.360 true for motherhood, right, And it's so like, what do 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:41.520 we want to etch in our brains. We want to 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:43.920 etch the skills that we're going to need to take 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:45.640 care of our baby. And as we're taking care of 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:47.480 our baby, our baby is teaching us how to take 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.400 care of them. And so we're learning. Our brain's evolving right, 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.080 and it's becoming better than ever, However, there are so 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.120 many landmines that get in the way. So one in 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:59.960 five mothers experience postpartum birth trauma. In becoming a mother 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.160 is its own normative trauma because it assaults every system 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.400 of your body in a very quick period of time. 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:10.200 And so I really think that society is not prepared 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.840 for mothers. And it's funny because I mean it's not funny, 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:17.200 but really the most unprepared are actual mothers, and we 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.400 can do so much better. We need to educate them 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:21.640 on the power that they have under the hood, what 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.120 they're working with, and that it takes time, and to 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.280 validate how challenging it is, but that it is evolving 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:30.920 and that they're doing it right. Right, This is how 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.680 it goes. Baby bonding takes longer than you think. Months actually, 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:38.960 but our social media feeds they show us pictures of 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.920 like we're supposed to love our baby overnight. Right, It's 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.480 just this majestic feeling, and I think we get moments 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:49.200 of bliss, but it's kind of hard to feel blissful 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:51.000 when you have spit up in your hair and you're 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:52.400 running on no sleep. 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:55.839 It's unrequited that in that early stage. You know, as 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:59.640 you were talking, my brain was drawing parallels between the 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:05.160 dis comfort of the MATRESSNS period psychologically with imposter syndrome, 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:10.680 because now the way I view imposter syndrome. And it's funny, 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.120 we talked about this at that panel at shine Away 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.600 when we first met. I view it as a gap 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.200 in my skill set and where I think I want 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.400 to be. And there's a period where you know, I'm 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:27.320 accepting a new opportunity and I'm learning new skills. But 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:30.400 that period is still uncomfortable because I feel a bit 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.040 out of my depths. But at the same time, there 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:38.040 is brilliance brewing and I am working towards a better 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.480 version of myself. And it almost sounds like that's like 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:42.880 what the brain is going through exactly. 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.360 I mean, neuroplasticity happens all the time, right, and so 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.360 therapy can change the brain. Life experiences can change the 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:53.720 brain exercise trauma, you know, So we have that to 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.360 work with. And as you're rising to every new challenge, 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.400 like what you're saying, you're building that neural network. You're 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:02.040 building lots of neural networks around this new experience and 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.400 you're learning and growing and the development is really like 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:08.800 an upward spiral, and so you're taking advantage of that 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:12.360 and moving forward and you're coming to each new situation 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:18.640 with more expertise, more coping skills, more neural power behind it. 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.120 That will just continue to propel you forward, even though 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.920 at times you probably hit the same emotions where it's 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.720 like you're having that feeling of imposter syndrome, right, but 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:30.680 you're actually not moving backwards. You're not back to that 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:32.440 beginner stage. You're moving forward. 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.040 We have to take a quick break, but we'll be 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:48.680 right back with doctor Nicole Pensack. And we're back with 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:49.920 doctor Nicole Pensack. 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:55.440 So how long does matrescence last? And you mentioned this 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:57.840 word before, but I'm just going to say the definition 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.080 that you have written in your book for Clarity, you 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.520 call matressens the process of becoming a mother, the physical, psychological, 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:05.640 and emotional changes you go through after the birth. Of 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.760 your child, which is largely unexported in the medical community. 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:10.760 How long does that period last? 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:13.040 I mean, I think it goes on for a very 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:14.600 long time, but I would say the height of the 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:16.600 neuroplastic changes occur within the. 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:17.680 First two years. 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:18.280 Got it. 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:23.000 But as you know, we as a field in research 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.640 don't have a lot of data studying pregnant women and mothers. 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:28.800 You know, only four percent of research funding goes to 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:31.200 women's health studies. And I think we'll do better and 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.520 understand more about it, but really the longest term follow 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:38.520 up we have for mothers is two years, right, So 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:40.360 that's what we say when we think of like how 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:42.840 long does it last or long term effects. But I'll 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:44.840 tell you I have a five and seven year old. 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:48.320 I'm still going through matrescin. Okay, I was going through 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:50.120 it last week when I was when my son woke 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:51.600 up in the middle of the night and he had 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:53.760 an allergy, and I was trying to figure out what 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.160 it was and doing the mental calculations and giving him 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.160 medicine and trying to make him feel better and soothe him. 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:01.240 So it just keeps going. 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.919 They keep knowing how difficult postpartum can be. What do 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.280 you think new moms can do to prepare themselves for 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:09.800 this period. 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.120 So in order to do the most amount of good 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.040 for the greatest amount of people, I always recommend setting 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.479 yourself up with a proactive postpartum mental health care team. 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:23.280 That means a therapist and prescriber that specialize in postpartum 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.760 mental health. And the reason being is that you have 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:30.560 your team waiting for you. You establish care with them, 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.399 so you know who you want to work with, you 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.200 know who you can trust, and even if you don't 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.400 need them, they're there for you. They understand your personal 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:42.080 risk factors that we know there are some for postpartum, 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:44.680 but even if you have no risk factors, you're still 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:48.480 at risk forgetting postpartum. And so what happens is mothers, 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:50.560 you know, no one thinks they're going to get postpartum. 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:53.680 I certainly was one of them, and having that team 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.800 on standby allowed me to not have to scramble last 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:58.680 minute to find a doctor, wait three months to get 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.240 an appointment, or you know, figure out who I want 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.119 to work with, or you know, trial and error that stuff. 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:06.280 And when you're in the heat or in the thick 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.720 of postpartum, you can't problem solve. And so I think 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:11.800 we would catch a lot more women if we had 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:14.480 that mental health care team in place, even if you 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.680 don't need it, because not to mention you're going through 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:19.679 so much. So even if you're not having a postpartum 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.640 crisis or postpartum mental health symptoms, you're still going through 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:26.639 this normative trauma, this huge adjustment, this huge developmental phase. 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:28.439 It's nice to have a thought partner to sort of 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.159 think about these things, not to mention all of the 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.600 new emotional experiences that you're having, like mom rage, mom shame, 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:38.800 mom guilt right in truth, absolutely intrusive thoughts. 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:40.680 Ninety percent people have them. 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:46.359 Back to work, transitions, marital changes, division of labor. 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:48.560 I mean, there's just so much going on. 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:52.399 And so I actually think the postpartum period is an 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.320 opportune time to go to therapy because your brain is 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.400 primed for new learning. So it's new learning for your 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:00.280 baby and how to take care of your baby. Like 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.520 your brain biologically is working with you, know, for you 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:05.480 to help you take care of your baby, but it's 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.240 working against you to take care of yourself, right, because 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:11.159 that's not biologically advantageous. Right, you have to keep that 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:15.760 baby alive, and that's very important. I'm saying. Let's you know, 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.320 we have a saying in neuroscience, it's like neurin's a 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.000 fire together, wire together. So if you're learning how to 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.320 take care of your baby, let's also get in there 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.199 some strategies and skills to take care of yourself. And 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:31.080 I do believe that my treatment went that much further. 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:33.399 This was another part of where I felt like I 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:36.000 was thriving because I was in a prime state of 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:36.560 new learning. 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:38.000 My brain was like a sponge. 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:40.800 That's such good advice to get the mental health team 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:43.880 in place beforehand. No one told me that I would 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:45.399 have hugely benefited from that. 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:48.000 Yeah, I've actually never heard anybody say. 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:49.679 That, right, I haven't either, Danielle. 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.720 Honestly, that's the I mean, if nothing else, that's my mission, 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:56.960 right to get to catch more mothers because so many 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:00.879 mothers are silently suffering, and we know that one in 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:04.200 five experience postpartum. We have a maternal mental health crisis, 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.480 but we know in the field that it's such an 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.720 underrepresentation of what's actually going on because mothers are afraid 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.200 of reporting their symptoms for fear that they'll be viewed 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:15.480 as unfit right, or that they're doing it wrong or 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:17.960 something's wrong with them. They just think they're failing, and 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:19.919 it's like, really, your brain is just going through an 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:25.080 immense overhaul that while these neuroplastic changes are happening, you're 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:30.640 with every heightened neuroplastic phase, you're also much more vulnerable 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.520 to experience the risks that come along, and so your 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:37.240 brain is actually more vulnerable to experience postpartum. Right, it's 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.520 nothing that you did, so I want to validate that. 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:41.800