1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine, Hey fam Today, on the bright side, we're 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: unlocking the secret superpowers of the mommy brain. You've heard 3 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: about the brain fog or over stimulation, but clinical psychologist 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: doctor Nicole Pensac is here to tell us why we 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: should be celebrating the cognitive benefits of the postpartum brain. 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, February twenty six. I'm Simone Boyce. 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright side from 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 2: Hello Sunshine. 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: Okay, Danielle, you know how much I love cool vocabulary. 10 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 2: Right of course, I have a whole list of your 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 2: vocab written down in my notes. 12 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 3: Fad verdant comes to mind. 13 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: Verdant is a good one. I have a new favorite. 14 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 3: Word, Okay, give it to me. 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: And this word is so important because it's often hard 16 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: to describe just how vast and transformative the physical and 17 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: physiological changes are that come with motherhood. So there is 18 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: the term called matrescence, and it literally means the physiological 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: changes that happen in our brain, happened in our bodies everything, 20 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: and encapsulates this huge life shift into motherhood goodness. And 21 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: that's exactly what doctor Nicole Pensack talks about in her book, 22 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: it's called Rattled, and honestly, it is one of these 23 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: books that I'm keeping in my arsenal whenever I have 24 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: a friend who is about to give birth, because I 25 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: just think it's essential reading for anyone who's about to 26 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: enter into that life stage. 27 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 28 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: And doctor Nicole Pensick is a clinical psychologist, and she's 29 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 2: someone who's both studied the postpartum experience and gone through 30 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: it herself. She's a mom. And you went through at 31 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: some moment. What was that period of time post earth 32 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: like for you? Well, for me, it varied so much 33 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 2: between the two kids. I think the first time I 34 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: went through postpartum, I was filled with this like euphoria 35 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: and bliss and I really just wanted to soak up 36 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: every moment. I think the second time, and the research 37 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: reflects this, postpartum hit me a lot harder and I 38 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: really wasn't prepared for that. I had heard about postpartum, 39 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: but it's almost it's so hard to recognize it in 40 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 2: yourself because you kind of you minimize your own experience 41 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: and you're like. 42 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: Oh, no, this wouldn't happen to me. Of course it 43 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: would happen to someone else, but this isn't. There's no 44 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: way this is actually happening to me, And it's actually 45 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: taken me years of reflection to look back and realize, Yeah, 46 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: I think that was my experience. I think I was 47 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: dealing with postpartum depression. 48 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 3: What were you feeling? 49 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: There is a heightened sense of depression that I experienced 50 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: in the first two weeks after giving birth to my 51 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: second child, so much so that I called a suicide 52 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: hotline because I didn't know who to talk to. I 53 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: was in a time of crisis and I just needed 54 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: to speak to a mental health professional immediately. So that's 55 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: like the extreme side of it. That extreme crisis situation 56 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: eventually faded away, and I think what it evolved into 57 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: was this very low grade postpartum depression. And so when 58 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: I say that, I it was hard for me to 59 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: recognize it in myself. I think I wasn't ready to 60 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: accept that. Postpartum depression can manifest in a lot of 61 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: different ways. You know, it can be those extreme feelings 62 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: of self harm, or it can be this kind of latent, 63 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: insidious depression that lingers. 64 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 3: I'm so sorry to hear that. That's that's incredible crisis, you. 65 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: Know, I think the conversation around postpartum depression has really 66 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: evolved and expanded in recent years, and I'm happy that 67 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: we are at a place where we feel like we 68 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: can talk about these things. But it's so complicated and layered. 69 00:03:59,440 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 4: Right. 70 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: Yes, there are the moments of crisis, which I experienced 71 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: at times in my own journey, but there's also this 72 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: other side of the postpartum brain that I think is 73 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: worthy of celebration, Like my capacity for thought, my capacity 74 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: for tasks expanded in miraculous ways when I became a parent, 75 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: and those are things that I still take with me 76 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: and carry with me into my life outside of my home. 77 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: And that's what doctor Niki Pensac's book Rattled is all about. 78 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: I mean, she's all about rebranding the mommy brain and 79 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: reminding us that there are so many cognitive benefits to 80 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: celebrate here. 81 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 2: Today's episode is definitely one you'll want to share with 82 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 2: a mother in your life, but it's not limited to 83 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 2: biological mothers. I think it's great for caregivers LGBTQ parents. 84 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 3: A lot of people can reap the benefits of this episode. 85 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: Go ahead and bring her in, doctor Nicki Panzac. Welcome 86 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: to the bright Side. 87 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 5: Thanks for having me welcome. 88 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 3: This is not the first time that we've met you. 89 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: We got to meet you at Shinaway last year, and 90 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 2: I really loved connecting with you. 91 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 3: You had such a bright spirit. 92 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 5: Oh, thank you. 93 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 4: It was so fun to be there and be at 94 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 4: your live recording and participate. I mean it was just 95 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 4: fantastic and the whole event was just amazing. 96 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: So so inspiring, right, and like I felt so hyped up. 97 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: I did. 98 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, I did as well, and just connected with so 99 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 4: many fabulous women like you two, and just excited to 100 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 4: be here. 101 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: Well, you gave us both a copy of your book 102 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: at Shinawa. I have it right here. It's called Rattled, 103 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: How to Calm New mom Anxiety with the Power of 104 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: the Postpartum Brain. And I read the book and I 105 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: just really appreciated the positive spin, like the rebrand of 106 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: the postpartum brain, because we've been we've been told how 107 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: negative it is and oh, you got to prepare for 108 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: how much your brain is going to change in such 109 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: a negative way. But you brought so much positivity to it. 110 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: And we're going to get into that, but first, let's 111 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: talk about your background a little bit. So, Nikki, you're 112 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist who specializes in treating postpartum. You were 113 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: trained at Yale and Harvard certified and perinatal mental health. 114 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: So your resume says that you should have been one 115 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: hundred percent prepared for everything that comes with motherhood. But 116 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: the reality is so much different, right, Like what surprised 117 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: you the most about that transition into motherhood that you 118 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: could have never prepared for? 119 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 4: Oh? I mean so many things, but I think my 120 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 4: story really began, you know, as all great stories begin, 121 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 4: on the floor crying in my closet, and I was 122 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 4: It was a real, you know, doctor becomes patient moment 123 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 4: where I was diagnosing myself in real time and calling 124 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 4: my doctor in tears, telling my doctor, I'm ready for 125 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 4: I need postpartum treatment. And that was just an incredibly 126 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 4: humbling moment for me where I felt like, if I 127 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 4: have all the resources at my fingertips, you know what's 128 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 4: going on out there. You know, I wasn't immune, and 129 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 4: so I got treatment very quickly because I did what 130 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 4: I instruct my patients to do, right. I set up 131 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 4: my proactive postpart of mental health care team and they 132 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 4: were ready to go so that I was able to 133 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 4: get treated very quickly. And then I went from really 134 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 4: rock bottom to thriving in a short period of time, 135 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 4: And as an academic researcher, I went back to the science. 136 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 4: I really wanted to understand how did I go from 137 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 4: rock bottom to this place of feeling better than ever 138 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 4: motivated in the world's worst circumstances. So COVID was going 139 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 4: on at the time as well, and I really uncovered 140 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 4: a story that's not being told but that everyone needs 141 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 4: to hear. 142 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're going to get more into your personal story 143 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 2: in a little bit, but I want to talk about 144 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: what's going on in our brains during this critical time, 145 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 2: because you write that the peripartum phase and transition to 146 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: motherhood is the single greatest amount of neurobiological change a 147 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: mother can go through in the shortest period of time. 148 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 2: That's so huge. So what's happening to our brains during 149 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 2: this period and how does that affect us? 150 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 4: So when a woman becomes a mother, your brain, your body, 151 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 4: your relationships, your psyche, everything changes in a short amount 152 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 4: of time. Your brain basically creates new neural networks, fine tunes, 153 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 4: and primes itself for taking care of a baby. And 154 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 4: so what mothers don't realize is that it's a complete 155 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 4: overhaul of your brain and things are running more efficiently, 156 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 4: but it sort of takes time to get there. So 157 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 4: Yale has now named this a neurocognitive developmental phase called matrescence. 158 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 4: And when you go through this phase, it's not just 159 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 4: like the mommy brain stigma, right, feeling foggy and forgetful. 160 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 4: That's a very small part of this, but really your 161 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 4: brain is on a path to brilliance. And what we 162 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 4: want to do is set up mothers for success, right, 163 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 4: so that they can sort of surf this tide of neuroplasticity. 164 00:08:55,520 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 4: So it's growing new neural networks and shedding useless ones printing. 165 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 4: So it's basically like Marie condoing the mind to give 166 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 4: moms a leg up and caregiving. That's the best way 167 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 4: I can say it. Honestly, That analogy is so good. 168 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: I love that. 169 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 2: How is our brain reorganizing and evolving itself to better 170 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: support a new baby. 171 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 4: So it's fine tuning and priming itself for new learning. 172 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 4: And basically, when you think about it, you when you 173 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 4: become a mom, there's so much new learning, and so 174 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 4: this is where it gets into mothers get you know, 175 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 4: feel defeated and like a failure if they don't know 176 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 4: how to do something. But it's like, wait, you've never 177 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 4: done this before, and so you're building a new neural network. 178 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 4: I give the example of like when you're changing a diaper, right, 179 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 4: you've never done that before, but now you're learning, Okay, 180 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 4: what diaper works best? What does coverage for blowouts? How 181 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 4: tight should it go? Oh, there's a rash, I got 182 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 4: a diaper cream, And like you're basically building a whole 183 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 4: neural network around this very simple task. But it's not 184 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 4: simple at all. So imagine a million of those you 185 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 4: know going on and you're just building neural networks in 186 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 4: your brain. 187 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: Does that explain like I've heard the phrase mommy brain 188 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: or like brain fog? Does that explain some of that? 189 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, so mommy brain really gets a bad rap and 190 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 4: it needs a rebrand. Right, So we think of mommy brain, 191 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 4: we think of the subjective experience of feeling foggy and forgetful. 192 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 4: It's the lapse in memory, and that subjective feeling is 193 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 4: very real. So I want to validate that you are 194 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 4: actually feeling that way and that's happening. But the thing 195 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 4: is is that when you look at the research, there's 196 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 4: very weak support for any differences in actual memory functioning 197 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 4: when you look at mothers compared to non mothers. Right, So, 198 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 4: and now we're seeing some studies that actually show some 199 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 4: cognitive boosts and mothers that are actually better at visual 200 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 4: memory and problem solving and efficiency and empathy, and so 201 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 4: having the subjective experience of mommy brain, the fogginess and 202 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 4: forgetfulness is actually just due to the increased mental load 203 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 4: and lack of sleep. 204 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 5: So that's why you're feeling that way. 205 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: Okay, I know you just said it, but I have 206 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: to ask because it's like it's hard for me to understand. 207 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: So there are cognitive benefits that are happening in our 208 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: brains during this MATRESCNS period, but when I'm living it, 209 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: it doesn't feel that way. I just feel like a 210 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: hot mess. 211 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 5: Of course. 212 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: Why why is that? 213 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 4: Because it's a complete overhaul of everything, your psyche, your brain, 214 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 4: your identity, your emotions. You have all these new experiences 215 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 4: and your brain needs time to catch up, and that's 216 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 4: why they call it an adaptation. So physically, you become 217 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 4: a mother overnight, but the actual psychological process takes longer, 218 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 4: and so we need to validate that even though you 219 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 4: feel this way, it's actually just on a path to 220 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 4: brilliance and you're developing new skills. You're rising to every 221 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 4: relentless challenge twenty four to seven because you don't have 222 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 4: a choice, mom, you know, and your kids are just 223 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 4: throwing things out you left and right, and you're just 224 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 4: figuring it out. Right, Yeah, you're figuring out how to 225 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 4: soothe them in the middle of the night. Right, a 226 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 4: baby crying? Is it going to be a bounce or 227 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 4: a rock? Are they hungry? 228 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 5: Is it colic? 229 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: Is it gas? 230 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 5: Is the mixed formula to concentrated? I mean these are 231 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 5: a lot. You know. Motherhood is more cerebral than ever. 232 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 5: We're like constantly problem solving. And as you're doing that, 233 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 5: because you've. 234 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 4: Never done it before, your brain is developing at an 235 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 4: exponential rate and actually in a prime state of neuroplasticity. 236 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 5: This means that it's primed for learning. 237 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: Right. 238 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 4: So if you think about it in adolescence, those teen 239 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 4: experiences are like etched in our brains, right because there's 240 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 4: so much neuroplasticity going on, and so the same is 241 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 4: true for motherhood, right, And it's so like, what do 242 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 4: we want to etch in our brains. We want to 243 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 4: etch the skills that we're going to need to take 244 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 4: care of our baby. And as we're taking care of 245 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 4: our baby, our baby is teaching us how to take 246 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 4: care of them. And so we're learning. Our brain's evolving right, 247 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 4: and it's becoming better than ever, However, there are so 248 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 4: many landmines that get in the way. So one in 249 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 4: five mothers experience postpartum birth trauma. In becoming a mother 250 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 4: is its own normative trauma because it assaults every system 251 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 4: of your body in a very quick period of time. 252 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 4: And so I really think that society is not prepared 253 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 4: for mothers. And it's funny because I mean it's not funny, 254 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 4: but really the most unprepared are actual mothers, and we 255 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 4: can do so much better. We need to educate them 256 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 4: on the power that they have under the hood, what 257 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 4: they're working with, and that it takes time, and to 258 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 4: validate how challenging it is, but that it is evolving 259 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 4: and that they're doing it right. Right, This is how 260 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 4: it goes. Baby bonding takes longer than you think. Months actually, 261 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 4: but our social media feeds they show us pictures of 262 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 4: like we're supposed to love our baby overnight. Right, It's 263 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 4: just this majestic feeling, and I think we get moments 264 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 4: of bliss, but it's kind of hard to feel blissful 265 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 4: when you have spit up in your hair and you're 266 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 4: running on no sleep. 267 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 1: It's unrequited that in that early stage. You know, as 268 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: you were talking, my brain was drawing parallels between the 269 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: dis comfort of the MATRESSNS period psychologically with imposter syndrome, 270 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: because now the way I view imposter syndrome. And it's funny, 271 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: we talked about this at that panel at shine Away 272 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: when we first met. I view it as a gap 273 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: in my skill set and where I think I want 274 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: to be. And there's a period where you know, I'm 275 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: accepting a new opportunity and I'm learning new skills. But 276 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: that period is still uncomfortable because I feel a bit 277 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: out of my depths. But at the same time, there 278 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: is brilliance brewing and I am working towards a better 279 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: version of myself. And it almost sounds like that's like 280 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: what the brain is going through exactly. 281 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 4: I mean, neuroplasticity happens all the time, right, and so 282 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 4: therapy can change the brain. Life experiences can change the 283 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 4: brain exercise trauma, you know, So we have that to 284 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 4: work with. And as you're rising to every new challenge, 285 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 4: like what you're saying, you're building that neural network. You're 286 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 4: building lots of neural networks around this new experience and 287 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 4: you're learning and growing and the development is really like 288 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 4: an upward spiral, and so you're taking advantage of that 289 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 4: and moving forward and you're coming to each new situation 290 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 4: with more expertise, more coping skills, more neural power behind it. 291 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 4: That will just continue to propel you forward, even though 292 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 4: at times you probably hit the same emotions where it's 293 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 4: like you're having that feeling of imposter syndrome, right, but 294 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 4: you're actually not moving backwards. You're not back to that 295 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 4: beginner stage. You're moving forward. 296 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: We have to take a quick break, but we'll be 297 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: right back with doctor Nicole Pensack. And we're back with 298 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 2: doctor Nicole Pensack. 299 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: So how long does matrescence last? And you mentioned this 300 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: word before, but I'm just going to say the definition 301 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: that you have written in your book for Clarity, you 302 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: call matressens the process of becoming a mother, the physical, psychological, 303 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: and emotional changes you go through after the birth. Of 304 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: your child, which is largely unexported in the medical community. 305 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: How long does that period last? 306 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 4: I mean, I think it goes on for a very 307 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 4: long time, but I would say the height of the 308 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 4: neuroplastic changes occur within the. 309 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 5: First two years. 310 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: Got it. 311 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 4: But as you know, we as a field in research 312 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 4: don't have a lot of data studying pregnant women and mothers. 313 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 4: You know, only four percent of research funding goes to 314 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 4: women's health studies. And I think we'll do better and 315 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 4: understand more about it, but really the longest term follow 316 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 4: up we have for mothers is two years, right, So 317 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 4: that's what we say when we think of like how 318 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 4: long does it last or long term effects. But I'll 319 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 4: tell you I have a five and seven year old. 320 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 4: I'm still going through matrescin. Okay, I was going through 321 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 4: it last week when I was when my son woke 322 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 4: up in the middle of the night and he had 323 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 4: an allergy, and I was trying to figure out what 324 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 4: it was and doing the mental calculations and giving him 325 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 4: medicine and trying to make him feel better and soothe him. 326 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 5: So it just keeps going. 327 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 2: They keep knowing how difficult postpartum can be. What do 328 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 2: you think new moms can do to prepare themselves for 329 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 2: this period. 330 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 4: So in order to do the most amount of good 331 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 4: for the greatest amount of people, I always recommend setting 332 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,479 Speaker 4: yourself up with a proactive postpartum mental health care team. 333 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 4: That means a therapist and prescriber that specialize in postpartum 334 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 4: mental health. And the reason being is that you have 335 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 4: your team waiting for you. You establish care with them, 336 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 4: so you know who you want to work with, you 337 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 4: know who you can trust, and even if you don't 338 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 4: need them, they're there for you. They understand your personal 339 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 4: risk factors that we know there are some for postpartum, 340 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 4: but even if you have no risk factors, you're still 341 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 4: at risk forgetting postpartum. And so what happens is mothers, 342 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 4: you know, no one thinks they're going to get postpartum. 343 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 4: I certainly was one of them, and having that team 344 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 4: on standby allowed me to not have to scramble last 345 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 4: minute to find a doctor, wait three months to get 346 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 4: an appointment, or you know, figure out who I want 347 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 4: to work with, or you know, trial and error that stuff. 348 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 4: And when you're in the heat or in the thick 349 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 4: of postpartum, you can't problem solve. And so I think 350 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 4: we would catch a lot more women if we had 351 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 4: that mental health care team in place, even if you 352 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 4: don't need it, because not to mention you're going through 353 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 4: so much. So even if you're not having a postpartum 354 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 4: crisis or postpartum mental health symptoms, you're still going through 355 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 4: this normative trauma, this huge adjustment, this huge developmental phase. 356 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 4: It's nice to have a thought partner to sort of 357 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 4: think about these things, not to mention all of the 358 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 4: new emotional experiences that you're having, like mom rage, mom shame, 359 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 4: mom guilt right in truth, absolutely intrusive thoughts. 360 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 5: Ninety percent people have them. 361 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 4: Back to work, transitions, marital changes, division of labor. 362 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 5: I mean, there's just so much going on. 363 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 4: And so I actually think the postpartum period is an 364 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 4: opportune time to go to therapy because your brain is 365 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 4: primed for new learning. So it's new learning for your 366 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 4: baby and how to take care of your baby. Like 367 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 4: your brain biologically is working with you, know, for you 368 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 4: to help you take care of your baby, but it's 369 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 4: working against you to take care of yourself, right, because 370 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 4: that's not biologically advantageous. Right, you have to keep that 371 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 4: baby alive, and that's very important. I'm saying. Let's you know, 372 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 4: we have a saying in neuroscience, it's like neurin's a 373 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 4: fire together, wire together. So if you're learning how to 374 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 4: take care of your baby, let's also get in there 375 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 4: some strategies and skills to take care of yourself. And 376 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 4: I do believe that my treatment went that much further. 377 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 4: This was another part of where I felt like I 378 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 4: was thriving because I was in a prime state of 379 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 4: new learning. 380 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 5: My brain was like a sponge. 381 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: That's such good advice to get the mental health team 382 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: in place beforehand. No one told me that I would 383 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: have hugely benefited from that. 384 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've actually never heard anybody say. 385 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: That, right, I haven't either, Danielle. 386 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 4: Honestly, that's the I mean, if nothing else, that's my mission, 387 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 4: right to get to catch more mothers because so many 388 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 4: mothers are silently suffering, and we know that one in 389 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 4: five experience postpartum. We have a maternal mental health crisis, 390 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 4: but we know in the field that it's such an 391 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 4: underrepresentation of what's actually going on because mothers are afraid 392 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 4: of reporting their symptoms for fear that they'll be viewed 393 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 4: as unfit right, or that they're doing it wrong or 394 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 4: something's wrong with them. They just think they're failing, and 395 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 4: it's like, really, your brain is just going through an 396 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 4: immense overhaul that while these neuroplastic changes are happening, you're 397 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 4: with every heightened neuroplastic phase, you're also much more vulnerable 398 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 4: to experience the risks that come along, and so your 399 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 4: brain is actually more vulnerable to experience postpartum. Right, it's 400 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 4: nothing that you did, so I want to validate that. 401 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 3: Where do you land on medication? 402 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 4: I think it can be life saving if you need it. Absolutely, 403 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 4: was that part of your treatment plan. It was, you know, 404 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 4: being an expert in doing therapy day and day out. 405 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 4: I kind of knew what level I was at, and 406 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 4: therapy worked with my first baby, Right, it was sort 407 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,239 Speaker 4: of a mild postpartum experience. It's a mild post part 408 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 4: of most day. And then with the second one, I 409 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 4: was actually in crisis and I was like, you know what, 410 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 4: I need medication. I knew enough to know that I 411 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 4: had kind of reached that threshold and I wasn't sleeping 412 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 4: for five days, so I didn't know that was actually 413 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 4: physically possible, but my brain I could not shut off 414 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 4: because it was the height of COVID and my son 415 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 4: was in the NICU for five weeks, and then two 416 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 4: weeks later we were on lockdown. My husband is a physician, 417 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 4: and so he was getting text from overseas, and so 418 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 4: I was just terrified and mentally planning how I was 419 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 4: going to keep everyone alive in the house, including myself. 420 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: Does postpartum depression get worse the more babies you have? 421 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 1: It can? 422 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, you're at a higher risk each subsequent pregnancy, but 423 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 4: also pregnancies can be different, so it's not guaranteed, but 424 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 4: I would say that there's a slightly higher risk. 425 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 5: Yeah. 426 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: I experienced that, my friend. Yeah, my first one was 427 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: pretty mild. I was able to make it through that 428 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: like baby blues period, but the second one, I was 429 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: in crisis mode. 430 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 4: How early on was that for you when you experience 431 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 4: the crisis days? Days, okay, a week and then it 432 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 4: just didn't stop. 433 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: It It did subside, okay after So baby blues is 434 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: this period of acute hormonal change and distress within like 435 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: the first what two to four weeks after? 436 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 5: No? 437 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 4: No, no, no, absolutely not. 438 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: So what is the timeframe days? 439 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 4: If you have symptoms two weeks out or longer. That's postpartum. 440 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 4: That's postpartum, got it. 441 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: So so baby blues is just from birth till two weeks. 442 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 4: Yes, I would say even like the first week, right, 443 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 4: it really happens like in three days god after, and 444 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 4: then it lasts for several days. If it's lasting more 445 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 4: than a week or two, you're entering postpartum. 446 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I felt like mine did subside. It 447 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: peaked during that period, during that baby blues period, but 448 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: then it did subside and it perhaps evolved into just 449 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: like this low grade postpartum depression. Got it. 450 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, that happens too. 451 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 4: Well. There's a lot of hormonal changes that happen, like 452 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 4: you said, and we see two upticks in postpartum. The 453 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 4: first is right after the baby's born if you don't breastfeed, 454 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 4: because it's really a sharp drop in And I don't 455 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 4: know if this was your plan or not, but or 456 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 4: what happened for you, but it's usually an uptick right 457 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 4: after the baby's born if you don't breastfeed, and then 458 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 4: also another uptick when you wean from breastfeeding. So that's 459 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 4: why it's good to have a post part of mental 460 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,479 Speaker 4: health provider that knows what they're looking at, and can 461 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 4: also time the follow up appointments at vulnerable times depending 462 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 4: on what's going on developmental phase wise with the baby, 463 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 4: but also for you know, the mom and breastfeeding. 464 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I really appreciated this part in your book when 465 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: you address distorted thoughts and the times at which we 466 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: are more susceptible to those, and you write that it's 467 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: easy to think distorted thoughts when we're depressed to anxious 468 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: or not feeling at home in our bodies. What are 469 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: some of the most common cognitive distortions that you've come 470 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: across with mothers in your work. 471 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 5: That's a great question. 472 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 4: I mean, I hear all the time, you know, I'm failing, 473 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 4: I'm not cut out to be a mother. This isn't 474 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,959 Speaker 4: for me. It's you know, I'm no good at this. 475 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 4: So it's a lot of black and white thinking. I 476 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 4: hear a lot of you know, my brain is mush, 477 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 4: I'm not functioning well. Meanwhile, you're functioning really well. You're 478 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 4: just functioning differently, and we kind of have to reframe that. 479 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 4: But I think, you know, anxiety and depression and postpartum 480 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 4: can really distort our perception of things, and so there's 481 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 4: the black and white thinking, the all are nothing, the perfect, 482 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 4: the failure, feeling down on yourself. That really just so 483 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 4: many women are suffering with that, and especially I have 484 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 4: to say women that are very high functioning, they actually 485 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 4: are more vulnerable to experience postpartum anxiety because they're the 486 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 4: women that are like CEOs in their personal life, like 487 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 4: they're in charge, you know, they've they've got everything set right, 488 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 4: and so they fall harder in the postpart and period 489 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 4: because they're like, wait a minute, I'm a beginner. I'm 490 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 4: not comfortable being a beginner. You have to get comfortable 491 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,479 Speaker 4: with being a beginner at motherhood. You'd never done it before, 492 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 4: and when you have another kid, you haven't done it 493 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 4: with two kids, so it's like constantly knocking you back 494 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 4: and you're like, wait a minute, Like when am I 495 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 4: going to feel the competence that I feel in every 496 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 4: other facet of my life? 497 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's time for another short break, but don't go anywhere. 498 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: We'll be right back to wellness Wednesday with doctor Nicole Pensack. 499 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: And we're back with doctor Nicole Pensack. Well, what I 500 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: found empowering about your writing is that you offer solutions, 501 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: particularly about actions that we can take to really take 502 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: advantage of the neuroplasticity of this stage. So, what are 503 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: some examples of self directed neural plasticity. What are ways 504 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: to stimulate the new neural pathways. 505 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 4: So I think one of the most important ways, and 506 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 4: sort of at baseline, is, you know, get postpart and 507 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 4: mental health treatment right. So we want this process to 508 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 4: go right if you have postpartum you know, So that's 509 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 4: just like the tip of the iceberg. In general, you know, 510 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 4: exercise and sleep and taking care of yourself, that's all 511 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 4: going to promote neuroplasticity. These are good things for your brain. 512 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 4: More specifically, when I talk about self directed neuroplasticity again, 513 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 4: I'm talking about the neurons that fire together, wire together. 514 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 4: And so when you're learning to take care of your baby, 515 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 4: you're learning also how to take care of yourself. 516 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 5: And I talk. 517 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 4: About the power of positive emotions through the broaden and 518 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 4: build theory. So I use this actually with mom guilt. 519 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 4: So I get a lot of moms come to me 520 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 4: with mom guilt and I help them kind of double 521 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 4: down on that mom guilt. So mom guilt says, you know, 522 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 4: I shouldn't go out and enjoy this dinner with the girls. Right, 523 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 4: I'm going to check the baby monitor. I should be home. 524 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 4: I feel bad leaving the baby. But if you do that, 525 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 4: you're not getting the benefits of the positive emotional experiences 526 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 4: that you would get when you're at dinner with your girlfriends, right, 527 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 4: and the replenishment you're refilling the tank. 528 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 5: This is good for you. 529 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 4: The best predictor of childhood mental health is actually maternal 530 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 4: mental health. So I wouldn't help my patient basically lean 531 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 4: into that moment right and get into the present, Like, 532 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 4: put your phone away. How do we make this bigger 533 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 4: for you? How do we enhance your senses? Do you 534 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 4: need to order your favorite dessert, your drink, You have 535 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 4: to have something that you want to talk about that's 536 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 4: really fun. But we need to get you into the 537 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 4: moment so you're actually getting the positive emotional experiences that 538 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 4: are going to help these neuroplastic changes move along. Right, 539 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 4: And I talk about mom flow, So you're probably familiar 540 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 4: with just the general concept of flow. 541 00:27:58,440 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: Right. 542 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 4: When you're immersed in an activity, it's a transcendent state 543 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 4: and you lose your time, right, you're just kind of 544 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 4: immersed in it. And back when I was, you know, 545 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 4: working in academia, I would enjoy hours at a time, 546 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 4: you know, writing being uninterrupted, right, And then when I 547 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 4: became a mom, I mean everything's interrupted and I missed flow, 548 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 4: right because I was like really rewarding, you know, I 549 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 4: felt really creative, like bursts of energy and just like 550 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 4: being immersed in the task, like it's very healing. And 551 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 4: so I had to teach myself how to get into 552 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 4: mom flow. I call it mom flow. Just teaching myself 553 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 4: how to get into flow more quickly, you know, like 554 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 4: in a half hour, in short bursts. 555 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 5: And it takes practice. 556 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 4: But really, these positive emotional experiences are what's going to 557 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 4: bring you, not just to survive, but to thrive. Right. 558 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,959 Speaker 4: And so when I have patients I work with them, 559 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 4: I want them to feel better than ever. Right. 560 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 5: Post part of mental health care is like just the 561 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 5: tip of the iceberg. Right, there's so much more. 562 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 4: That's why I really want to educate mothers and society 563 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 4: and you know, partners that this is a profound developmental phase. 564 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 5: There's it's a missed opportunity here. 565 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 4: It's brilliant in the making, but we need to nurture it, 566 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 4: we need to help it go right. 567 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 2: That short burst of creativity or energy that you call 568 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: mom flow is so awesome. I feel like even non 569 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 2: moms can prepare and try to learn how to do that. 570 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 3: It feels so efficient to me. 571 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 4: Nikki, thank you for saying that. I mean, that was 572 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 4: very intentional in the book. I tried to make this 573 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 4: book really life advice, right. So even though it says, 574 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 4: you know, harness the power of the postpartum brain, it's 575 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 4: really for moms, dads, partners, you know. I get contacted 576 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 4: from you know, grandmothers that are like, I wish I 577 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 4: had this book, but actually it's just good life skills, right, 578 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 4: And so that was really intentional to make it general 579 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 4: enough so that everyone could benefit, because I do believe 580 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 4: everyone needs to understand and it's you know, backed by science, 581 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 4: and I bring in a lot of cognitive behavioral therapeutic 582 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 4: techniques that are evidence based. This is our gold standard 583 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 4: treatment for things like anxiety depression management and really just 584 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 4: good strategies to have one hand. 585 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: Well, speaking of everybody, something I found so interesting was 586 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: that some of these brain changes can occur in fathers 587 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: and non biological caregivers. 588 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 3: Also. That is so fascinating. How does that happen, that's right. 589 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 4: So what happens is there's a great researcher in New York, 590 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 4: Ruth Feldman, and she identified the caregiver network in the brain. 591 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 4: And so what happens for fathers and non biological caregivers 592 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 4: is that it's a top down approach where they're learning 593 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 4: and actually better at social learning. So fathers are better 594 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 4: at social learning with their kids because they're learning how 595 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 4: to take care of their kids through experience, right where mothers. 596 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 5: They get more of a biological push. 597 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 4: And so it's a bottom up approach, right, So you 598 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 4: get the biological basis, the hormone changes and everything, but 599 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 4: fathers and non biological caregivers get this as well. And actually, 600 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 4: the more immersed you are in taking care of the 601 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 4: baby or the children, the more neuroplastic changes that you have. 602 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 4: So it really does change your brain. And this is 603 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 4: why I'm talking about like neuroplastic changes can happen just 604 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 4: from experiences as well. It just so occurs that mothers 605 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 4: have this developmental phase where it's just like, you know, 606 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 4: an overflow of neuroplasticity. 607 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: Well, to wrap up this incredibly insightful conversation, Nikki, you've 608 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: said that mommy brain needs a rebrand, so you have 609 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: the floor. What is your vision for the mommy brain rebrand? 610 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: Is there a new name that you think it deserves. 611 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 4: Well, you know, I'm trying to get mothers to you know, 612 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 4: when they do something fabulous, right, like when they figure 613 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 4: out how to soothe their baby, when they problem solve 614 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 4: in a way that makes them feel powerful, when they 615 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 4: nail that first back to work meeting, when they you know, 616 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 4: are able to get their toddler and baby out the 617 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 4: door at the same time and make that appointment on time. 618 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 4: That like they turn to themselves and they're like, that's 619 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 4: my mom brain. Like, my mom brain is helping me 620 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 4: do that. Like when they have successes, that's their mom brain. 621 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 4: That's the brilliance of it. And it's not just this 622 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 4: derogatory stigma of the fogginess and forgetfulness. I think that 623 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 4: that it gets a bad rap and it's like, no, 624 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 4: you're when you're doing brilliant things, like that's your mom brain. 625 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: Maybe it should be mom brilliance. I love it. 626 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 5: Let's do it. 627 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: Oh. 628 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 3: I like that, Doctor Nikki, thank you so much for 629 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 3: joining us. 630 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 5: Thanks for having me. 631 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: Doctor Nicole Pensac is a clinical psychologist and the author 632 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: of rattlet How to Calm New mom Anxiety with the 633 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: Power of the Postpartum Brain. 634 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we've got another edition 635 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 2: of shelf Life. We're joined by author Alegra Goodman to 636 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 2: talk about her new novel, Isla, which is the February 637 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 2: pick for Reese's Book Club. 638 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect 639 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram 640 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok Oh, and 641 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: feel free to tag us at Simone Voice and at 642 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: Danielle Robe. 643 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 2: Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app, 644 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 645 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.