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Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

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Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,

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Speaker 2: Enjoy the episode Campsite Media.

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Speaker 3: So you now it is really why I should started

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Speaker 3: real here Casscase dot claim right.

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Speaker 2: Up the hill. It took months of reporting on this

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Speaker 2: store before I had a good reason to return to

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Speaker 2: Atlanta's West End, to the leafy neighborhood of bungalows and

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Speaker 2: Victorian homes surrounding the mass hit the corner store and

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Speaker 2: the park the side of the shootout on March sixteenth,

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Speaker 2: two thousand. The community, the village, even founded and led

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Speaker 2: by Imam Jamille A Lamine, with its own school, its

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Speaker 2: own security force, even something like its own laws.

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Speaker 3: Make a right right and we'll come back in the back,

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Speaker 3: come out for what I did.

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Speaker 2: It was this man, Rodney Brown who brought me back here.

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Speaker 2: Rodney grew up in the West End and he was

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Speaker 2: a teenager when crack cocaine hit in the eighties. So

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Speaker 2: many people on his side of town got sucked into

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Speaker 2: a zombie like existence, traded their spirit for the little

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Speaker 2: white rocks, and Rodney he got sucked into the fast

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Speaker 2: cash started dealing. He said he can make three or

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Speaker 2: four thousand dollars a day when he started out, as

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Speaker 2: long as he was willing to risk standing out on

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Speaker 2: the corner. I remember those days. I was just a kid,

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Speaker 2: but I saw how older relatives got caught up in

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Speaker 2: and out of jail, on and off the streets. Drugs,

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Speaker 2: guns and violence were cornerstones of the life. My parents

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Speaker 2: steered me and my siblings clear of it. We even

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Speaker 2: kept a distance from some relatives. And Mam Jimial was

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Speaker 2: in the thick of it, though, and as a leader,

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Speaker 2: he had little choice but to confront the problem head on.

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Speaker 2: In time, he developed a reputation for a quote cleaning

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Speaker 2: up the West End, making it a safe place to

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Speaker 2: raise families, not just for Muslims in his community, but

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Speaker 2: also others who lived nearby. Rodney witnessed some of that

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Speaker 2: from his particular perspective.

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Speaker 3: Did rad Hill was a maid to Trout this happen?

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Speaker 3: This is what tim of got key you.

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Speaker 2: Rodney was still a teenager when he bought his first

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Speaker 2: eight K forty seven, so he saw some things more

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Speaker 2: than his share of violence in his younger days. He

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Speaker 2: might have had more acquaintances who were killed than I

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Speaker 2: had friends in all of high school. Driving through the

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Speaker 2: neighborhood with him, the specter of violence gave me a headache.

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Speaker 2: We were surrounded by places where people who Rodney knew

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Speaker 2: had been struck down. Back in the book, I told

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Speaker 2: you I wasn't selling drug until.

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Speaker 3: The girl got killed on the bridge, Tanya Natalia mine.

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Speaker 3: He got killed on the bread. I just got got

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Speaker 3: myself caught up in sound. I don't think they chopped

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Speaker 3: him up back though, but I know they are. This

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Speaker 3: is what they dunk about it at. This was black giants.

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Speaker 3: This was black giant trap house. This way he sold

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Speaker 3: his weight. He was right here, but he ain't get killed.

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Speaker 3: He got killed back up though. I should have showed

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Speaker 3: down that when I was up there.

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Speaker 2: These killings happened in and around the part of the

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Speaker 2: West End controlled by a man Jamil, the area he

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Speaker 2: had supposedly cleaned up. It's the roughly six or seven

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Speaker 2: mostly residential blocks, apartments and houses that surround the park.

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Speaker 2: Just to the south of the park was the mas

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Speaker 2: Jed and the man Jamil's corner store. That was Jamel's store.

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Speaker 2: Exactly we turned and drove over the place where Deputy

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Speaker 2: Kinchin and Deputy English were shot. The part of the

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Speaker 2: street that was littered with shellcasings that.

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Speaker 3: Night in two thousand. It's the mobs, this green and

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Speaker 3: white one. That's the mobs. Jamil Alami stayed all these

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Speaker 3: his house, each one of these houses. See all these

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Speaker 3: this community mobs. I's see up in here. Ain't nobody

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Speaker 3: never sold no drugs here.

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Speaker 2: And Man Jamil hated drugs and drug dealing. So Rodney

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Speaker 2: and the seasoned dealers in the West End they knew

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Speaker 2: better than posting up on the corners next to the

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Speaker 2: mass Jed, the park and the corner store, the spot

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Speaker 2: where a mam gmial could be found most days, shooting hoops,

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Speaker 2: tending to the store, or chilling outside at the picnic table.

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Speaker 2: It was considered holy land. Instead, Rodney and the other dealers.

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Speaker 2: They did their business on the edges of a mam

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Speaker 2: Jamil's community. Still, somehow many of them ended up shot

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Speaker 2: and dead. Rodney was one of the few who survived.

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Speaker 2: In the nineties, before the shootout in March two thousand,

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Speaker 2: dozens of people were allegedly murdered in the West End,

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Speaker 2: dozens with little accountability. And it wasn't just the typical

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Speaker 2: violence you might expect drug dealers to encounter. In my

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Speaker 2: reporting of this story, so many people described for me

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Speaker 2: the breezy way a mam gmial moved through the West End,

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Speaker 2: how he seemed to carelessly float past his though catching

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Speaker 2: the wind. But my question after hearing these stories was this.

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Speaker 2: Did a mam Jamil rest control from the dope dealers

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Speaker 2: with that kind of grace alone, or was there something else?

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Speaker 2: When I looked into the killings all those folks who

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Speaker 2: Rodney knew who died, what I learned was disturbing, far

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Speaker 2: worse than I ever imagined. From Campside Media, Tenderfoot TV,

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Speaker 2: and iHeart podcasts, this is radical. I'm Mosey's Secret Episode

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Speaker 2: seven Sacrifices. We learned about the murders and the thousands

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Speaker 2: of pages of documents were received from the Fulton County

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Speaker 2: DA's office. The stuff we got in response to our

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Speaker 2: open records request. Reading those reports, what started out as

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Speaker 2: a quest to get to the bottom of the shootout

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Speaker 2: with the deputies and to figure out whether a Mam

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Speaker 2: Jamil was really capable of that kind of violence, suddenly

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Speaker 2: got this whole other layer because the documents described a

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Speaker 2: man who allegedly was way more than capable, who was

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Speaker 2: involved in a rash of killings in the West End

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Speaker 2: way before the shootout, who used a mafioso like ruthlessness

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Speaker 2: to get what he wanted. Figuring out whether the accusations

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Speaker 2: had any merit had every bearing on understanding who a

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Speaker 2: Maam Jamil was and just as importantly, who law enforcement

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Speaker 2: thought he was in the period leading up to the shootout.

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Speaker 2: The key document we got is called Synopsis of West

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Speaker 2: End Homicides. It's just eleven pages long, a list mostly

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Speaker 2: with quick summaries, dates and the names of victims, and

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Speaker 2: the section at the top law enforcement connects a Mamjmil

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Speaker 2: to see sixteen killings over about a decade nineteen eighty

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Speaker 2: six to nineteen ninety seven. Most of the victims were

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Speaker 2: drug dealers. Rodney knew many, if not all, the people

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Speaker 2: who were killed, and we looked over the list with him.

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Speaker 2: He's not in the streets anymore. He spent time in

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Speaker 2: prison and started fresh. So part of what he felt

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Speaker 2: was shocked at seeing the world he was so close

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Speaker 2: to with more perspective. He struggled to make sense of

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Speaker 2: the amount of killing.

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Speaker 3: I guess when they started happening, it was normal to man.

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Speaker 3: Think about you walk out the door and they have

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Speaker 3: shot his dude face off. When they shot Tome and

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Speaker 3: face off, and it was you know, it was always

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Speaker 3: violand in the West then but they shot his face

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Speaker 3: off a month not even a month later, shot n

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Speaker 3: them times in the face. Then everybody on your neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: You go to the globe, y'all killing there. Everybody.

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Speaker 3: They thought we was killing the motherfucker.

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Speaker 2: You know, we thought about it, so it was attached

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Speaker 2: to us.

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Speaker 3: Really they went or one for it because we won't over.

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Speaker 2: The synopsis of the Weston Homicides portrays a man Jamil

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Speaker 2: as some kind of kingpin heading up a group of

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Speaker 2: brothers from the mass jed An inner circle who ran

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Speaker 2: guns and extorted drug dealers, secretly killing the competition and

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Speaker 2: anyone else who knew too much about what they were doing.

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Speaker 2: Very strong allegations. In the earliest days of the West

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Speaker 2: End mass Jed, a mam Jamil set up a security team.

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Speaker 2: This I know it to be true. Nothing unusual there.

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Speaker 2: Most mass Jeds have them. Brothers would walk people home

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Speaker 2: from the mass Jed after prayer make sure nobody out

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Speaker 2: on the street caused any trouble. But the West End

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Speaker 2: seems to have taken their security further than most. A

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Speaker 2: member of the mass Jed told me how once some

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Speaker 2: guys started fighting during a basketball game at the park.

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Speaker 2: It was the West End versus a different neighborhood. The

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Speaker 2: outsiders left, but they were so pissed they came back

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Speaker 2: with guns before they could do any home though the

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Speaker 2: Muslim brothers fired. Even a mammaed Meal came out of

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Speaker 2: his little shop and let loose. As the outsiders fled,

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Speaker 2: they nearly flipped their car over, and when the cops

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Speaker 2: came by afterwards asking if everything was all right, the

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Speaker 2: Westend brothers said yeah, they had it under control. It

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Speaker 2: was frontier justice and guns were critical. On any given

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Speaker 2: day in the park, a good number of men had

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Speaker 2: rifles hanging on straps under their thobes. At night, they

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Speaker 2: rode around in cars or stood out on corners, also strapped,

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Speaker 2: they could hold their own behind the trigger too. The

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Speaker 2: brothers sometimes went to the shooting range together for target practice,

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Speaker 2: and the Mamas Meal would often join, just like he

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Speaker 2: used to in his earliest days in the movement. There

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Speaker 2: were many many guns flowing through the West End in

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Speaker 2: the late eighties and early nineties. Rodney he wasn't only

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Speaker 2: dealing in cracking weed. He sold guns too.

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Speaker 3: Yody who wanted guns in a lon did like they

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Speaker 3: want weed in Lona. They came to the West End.

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Speaker 3: They want a pistol. I said, okay, what kind won't.

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Speaker 2: Rodney's gun supplier was right around the corner. He was

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Speaker 2: buying from the Muslims.

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Speaker 3: I had Muslim knock on my door in the middle

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Speaker 3: of the night with boxes. Man, No, lie, I can't

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Speaker 3: count them. I'm talking about guns, rifles. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In the early nineties, two brothers from the mass Jed

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Speaker 2: were charged with running guns out of the storefront right

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Speaker 2: next to a man Jimill's corner store. They bought the

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Speaker 2: guns legally, but they were accused of selling them like

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Speaker 2: they might have done to Rodney without keeping the right

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Speaker 2: paperwork to track where they went. A federal agent testified

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Speaker 2: that a handful of guns went to the mass Jed's

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Speaker 2: security patrol, but more than two hundred were recovered in Philadelphia, Detroit,

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Speaker 2: New Haven, and New York City over three years. The

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Speaker 2: two accused men allegedly bought at least seventy three thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars worth of firearms, and they probably weren't just being

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Speaker 2: used for target practice. Many were Davis three eighties, a

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Speaker 2: handgun with a reputation as a Saturday Night special because

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Speaker 2: it's cheap and often used in crimes. At the gun

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Speaker 2: running trial, a member of the Masjid and the security

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Speaker 2: patrol testified for the prosecution. His name was Shahid ab

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Speaker 2: duur Rahman. He was in prison at the time for

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Speaker 2: shooting and killing a man. On the stand, he said

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Speaker 2: he bought guns from the accused men and then sent

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Speaker 2: them to New York, but he stopped short of saying

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Speaker 2: that the defendants knowingly sold gun to criminals planning to

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Speaker 2: commit crimes. Maybe that was because on the day he testified,

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Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil showed up the picture of menace he was

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Speaker 2: wearing an all black thobe and a black turban and

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Speaker 2: black charcoal around his eyes. If the FBI thought this

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Speaker 2: dude Shahid might implicate the AmAm, they better think again.

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Speaker 2: Not long after the gun running case wrapped up, Ma'am

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Speaker 2: Jamil got caught up in a case himself.

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Speaker 4: He was once the leader of the Student Non Violent

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Speaker 4: Coordinating Committee and part of the Black Power movement. Today,

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Speaker 4: h Rap Brown is known as Jamil Abdullah a La

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Speaker 4: Main and he appeared in court. He is charged with

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Speaker 4: aggravated assault and weapons violations after allegedly shooting a man

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Speaker 4: July twenty sixth.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety five, Atlanta police responded to a shooting

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Speaker 2: at West End Park of a man named William Miles.

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Speaker 2: One bullet entered and exited his leg without doing any

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Speaker 2: permanent damage. The responding officer said, Myles I d'ed to

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Speaker 2: Maam Jamil as the shooter. Then the next morning, AmAm

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Speaker 2: Jamil and another brother from the mass Jed went to

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Speaker 2: visit Miles at home. When an Atlanta police detective later

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Speaker 2: interviewed Myles, he did not identify a man Jamil as

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Speaker 2: the shooter, but a few days later that detective and

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Speaker 2: some federal agents pulled a Mam Jamil over in his

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Speaker 2: black Mercedes. They arrested him for aggravated assault and for

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Speaker 2: carrying a forty five caliber pistol without a license. We

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Speaker 2: found the recording of an interview a local television reporter

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Speaker 2: did with a Man Jamil a few days later after

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Speaker 2: he got out of jail on bond. He was in

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Speaker 2: his early fifties at the time. During the interview, he's

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Speaker 2: standing on the sidewalk outside his store wearing a black

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Speaker 2: thoat and a black knitted coofee. He has a thin

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Speaker 2: beard and oval glasses.

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Speaker 5: Do you know William Miles only from reading the paper

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Speaker 5: and seeing his name? You know this is my familiar

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Speaker 5: being familiar with him through that you never met with him?

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Speaker 2: And I went to his house. If he's the same

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Speaker 2: person who was shot?

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Speaker 5: I asked him, was it true that he was saying

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Speaker 5: that a Muslim shot him? He said that he saw

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Speaker 5: a tall person and the person had black on and

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Speaker 5: the person who shut him, you know, was tall and.

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Speaker 2: Had black on.

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Speaker 6: Was it you to do?

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Speaker 2: Do?

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Speaker 5: What to go see him, to talk to shot him?

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Speaker 2: To shoot him?

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Speaker 5: That's the allegation of police of made Well again. That's

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Speaker 5: the thing that has to be determined in court.

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Speaker 2: Man Then the reporter asked to Ma'am Jamil if he

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Speaker 2: still thinks violence is as an American as cherry pie.

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Speaker 5: I think it's evident, and I think that more people

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Speaker 5: realize what was being said. And I've always advocated self defense.

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Speaker 5: A loss is in the Qur'an tyranny and oppression is

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Speaker 5: worse than slaw. To fight them wherever you may find him.

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Speaker 5: So again, that whole sense of the right to self

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Speaker 5: defense as a human is a platform we've always stood on.

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Speaker 6: I guess then the obvious question is did you have

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Speaker 6: a forty five automatic pistol on you as a means

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Speaker 6: of self defense.

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Speaker 5: That's a part of the case again that has to

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Speaker 5: be litigated in court.

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Speaker 2: Imam Jamil didn't seem to be denying he was involved,

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Speaker 2: but William Miles, the victim of the shooting, he later

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Speaker 2: suggested that he was actually pressured by the police to

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Speaker 2: name a Maam Jamil as the shooter. Four national Islamic

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Speaker 2: groups urge the Department of Justice to investigate the arrest.

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Speaker 2: The charges were eventually dropped and the case went away.

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Speaker 2: So not counting the incident with the sheriff's deputies. That's

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Speaker 2: two shootings at the park that a Maam Jamil may

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Speaker 2: have been involved in, the one after the basketball game

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Speaker 2: and the shooting of William Miles. Nobody that we know

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Speaker 2: of was seriously hurt, and the shootings could be described

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Speaker 2: as part of protecting the community self defense in a way.

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Speaker 2: Like a Maam Jimil told the reporter in that interview,

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Speaker 2: it's a platform he's always stood on. But the a

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Speaker 2: Maam killing all those drug dealers, or even ordering them killed,

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Speaker 2: like the allegations we saw in the synopsis of Western homicides,

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Speaker 2: that would be on a whole other level. I don't

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Speaker 2: think a Mam Jmil was pulling the trigger in those murders,

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Speaker 2: but he didn't know the man who did much of

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Speaker 2: the killing, if not all of it, because he was

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Speaker 2: a well respected member of the Master JD and the

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Speaker 2: security patrol. Law enforcement knew this killer too, and not

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Speaker 2: just because they were trying to catch him. No, they

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Speaker 2: had a secret relationship with him, one that reveals just

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Speaker 2: how far they'd go to take down a man Jamil.

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Speaker 2: In the late eighties, when Ronnie got into the game

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Speaker 2: and started dealing, he had his disposal in the West

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Speaker 2: End to use the business school term a network. He

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Speaker 2: grew up about a block from West End Park and

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Speaker 2: the kids he played with, many of them were still around.

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Speaker 2: That included Muslim kids too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I hung with the smoked weeds and smoked cigarettes

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Speaker 3: and thrunk them. The ones that came to mind place

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Speaker 3: to shoot pool. But they still went and prayed every Friday,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 2: Just like Chris was just like all religions, all.

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Speaker 3: Of them not good, all of them not bad. He's

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Speaker 3: just like the ones that hung around me. Probably was

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Speaker 3: the bad seeds. I was a bad seed. So and

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Speaker 3: that's that's that relation.

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Speaker 2: I grew up with. How you gonna do?

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Speaker 3: People say they just killed God men? One of us did?

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Speaker 3: Why he knews since we was kids.

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Speaker 2: Shaheed abduer Rothman was maybe the Muslim who Rodney came

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Speaker 2: to know best in the West End. He had moved

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Speaker 2: to Atlanta from New York, where he'd lived through shattering trauma.

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Speaker 3: It was the Jamaicans that killed his mom. He stayed

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Speaker 3: in the house for like four days with a dead body.

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Speaker 2: When he was whole, he was really like a toxic

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Speaker 2: of self. I think he stayed in there.

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Speaker 3: He stayed in high with a dead by it like

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Speaker 3: four days and was his mom.

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Speaker 2: That's the story.

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Speaker 3: Tell people, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Shahid's passed is pretty mysterious. Other than that, but his

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Speaker 2: childhood seemed to have marked his destiny for darkness. Shahid

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Speaker 2: said that when he moved to Atlanta at seventeen or eighteen,

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Speaker 2: it was because he was flinging the aftermath of some shooting.

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Speaker 2: He joined the Master and the security team, and over

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Speaker 2: time built a reputation as a gentleman, a good Muslim,

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Speaker 2: and a family man. But he was secretly or not

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Speaker 2: so secretly, depending on whom you talk to, living a

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Speaker 2: double life, and the security team was his cover. If

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Speaker 2: most guys on the security patrol kept the defensive posture,

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Speaker 2: standing guard in the neighborhood or escorting families to their

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Speaker 2: houses at night, Shahid seemed to use his authority to

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Speaker 2: shake down the streets, going out sometimes with younger guys,

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Speaker 2: teenagers mostly, who went after drug dealers like they were cops,

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Speaker 2: busting into trap houses and confiscating dope, and that response

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Speaker 2: seemed to blow the lines between right and wrong. I

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Speaker 2: heard how these guys got rid of the drugs they

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Speaker 2: seized at first flushed them down the toilet, but after

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Speaker 2: a while they realized they were throwing money away, And

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Speaker 2: I wonder when dealers didn't back down what happened? Then

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Speaker 2: I got like Shahid, who seemed to have developed a

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Speaker 2: taste for blood. He thrived.

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Speaker 3: With Shahi, everybody knew he was a dangerous person, and

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Speaker 3: my friends said, hey, whatever you do, don't get in

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Speaker 3: the call with that motherfucker, because they know you'd come

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Speaker 3: at When murt came.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety, Shahied was involved in two killings. The

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Speaker 2: victims were in that document we got the synopsis of

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Speaker 2: Western homicides. Then about a year later, Shahied was involved

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Speaker 2: in another killing. People began to suspect he was doing

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Speaker 2: hit jobs, and to wonder who was calling the shots.

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Speaker 2: Shahid became a leader of the patrol and became close

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Speaker 2: to a man Jamil, but eventually he was charged with murder,

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Speaker 2: and with Shahied off the streets, the violence in the

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Speaker 2: West End seemed to taper off. Meanwhile, after Shahid got

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Speaker 2: locked up, Rodney said he was doing well for himself.

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Speaker 2: When things are really humming. He was moving hundreds of

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Speaker 2: thousands of dollars worth of drugs on a monthly basis.

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Speaker 2: Rodney stayed in touch with Shaheed while Shahid was in prison,

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00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 2: sent him weed. Shahid was his friend and Rodney, in

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Speaker 2: his criminal way at the time, was generous like that.

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Speaker 2: Around this time the FBI came offering Shahied some help too.

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Speaker 2: We know that while Shahied was incarcerated, he met with

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Speaker 2: an agent named Bill Gant. Not long after Shahid testified

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Speaker 2: for the prosecution in the gun running case against two

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Speaker 2: brothers from the weston mass Jed, when a man Jamil

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Speaker 2: showed up in all black then likely in exchange for

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Speaker 2: Shahid's cooperation, Gant the agent put in a word with

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Speaker 2: the Georgia Parole Board and by nineteen ninety five, Shahied

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Speaker 2: was back on the street and back in the mass Jed.

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Speaker 2: He had done approximately four years for killing and this

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Speaker 2: is when folks on the outside started wondering what the

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Speaker 2: fuck is going on here. When Shahid got out, Rodney

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Speaker 2: was surprised he didn't hear from him right away. I'm

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Speaker 2: a man, I'm mother, I'm the man. He know that,

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Speaker 2: he know he didn't her.

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Speaker 3: I'm taking care of his motherfuck in prison. I'm sending

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Speaker 3: weed to prison for free. Never ask for a penny.

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Speaker 3: So why when you come speak to me? Why?

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Speaker 2: And Ronnie didn't want to worry about Shahied walking up

380
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Speaker 2: behind him on the street with a pistol or a shotgun.

381
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Speaker 2: Rodney was starting to think Shahied was a rat his words,

382
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Speaker 2: not mine. So after three months of waiting, Rodney got

383
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Speaker 2: his address and stopped by.

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Speaker 3: I knocked on the door.

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Speaker 2: He looked at him.

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Speaker 3: I fucking seeing it with me, opened the door. I said,

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Speaker 3: what's up, man? How long you been out?

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Speaker 6: You know?

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Speaker 2: He was like, I've been a few coming out. Come

390
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Speaker 2: on in. Rodney asked Shahied straight up. How'd you get

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Speaker 2: out of jail? Shahid told Rodney that the brothers in

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Speaker 2: the mast and they wanted him back in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: They said, look, why don't you testify against one of

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Speaker 2: the accused in this gun running case so that you

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Speaker 2: can get your time cut. Just don't implicate the big man,

396
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: meaning a man Jimmy Rodney believed Shahied. But here's what's

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Speaker 2: weird about that story from my perspective. Anyway, the brothers

398
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 2: who Shahid testified against were members of the mass Jed

399
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Speaker 2: since the earliest days founding members. Really, why let them

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Speaker 2: take the fall so that Shahed, a much more dangerous

401
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 2: man by all accounts, could come home. Why would the

402
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Speaker 2: AmAm give that? The Okay people told me that Ammam

403
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 2: Jamil would not block anyone from practicing their religion, that

404
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil was close with everyone, including Shahed, a spiritual adviser,

405
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 2: always guiding people back to Islam. But that got messy.

406
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Speaker 2: Soon after Shahid got out of prison in March of

407
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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five, he killed a man in April. There

408
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 2: was another body later that year two more. Shahid was

409
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Speaker 2: linked to at least eight killings just in the West

410
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Speaker 2: End before the end of nineteen ninety five. Shahed, Rodney said,

411
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Speaker 2: would brag about what he was doing.

412
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Speaker 3: He's a serious killer.

413
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Speaker 2: I'm telling you he got the kill.

414
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Speaker 3: He gonna start some beef and it ain't gonna be

415
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Speaker 3: he gonna make up or reading to kill the mother fuck.

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Speaker 2: You might remember sister Jamila Jahad from the first episode

417
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Speaker 2: of the podcast. She converted to Islam, took the Shahada

418
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Speaker 2: from my Mam Jamil, and raised her family in the

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Speaker 2: West End. Sister Jamila ran a construction company and she

420
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Speaker 2: was having problems with an employee or a contractor someone

421
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Speaker 2: she was working with. Anyway, one day, Shahi came up

422
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Speaker 2: to hurt the message.

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Speaker 3: He said to me, you won't need to take care

424
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Speaker 3: of them, you know, for not not doing something, to

425
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Speaker 3: paying you or something like that.

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Speaker 2: I said, no, what you're talking about?

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Speaker 6: But do you take care of how?

428
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Speaker 2: You know?

429
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Speaker 5: But I had no idea.

430
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Speaker 3: Who you know, who he had become.

431
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Speaker 2: That's how he approached you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but he was a part you know, his friend

433
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Speaker 3: were working for me?

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Speaker 2: And now do you know what? You know what he

435
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 2: meant when he said that.

436
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm thinking.

437
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 2: Murder in a minute, you know, I think that's what

438
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 2: he was thinking too.

439
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 3: And I said, no, what's you talking about? What your

440
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 3: clients on, what you're doing.

441
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 2: It was so casual how Shahid asked her if he

442
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 2: should take somebody out. There's no doubt in my mind

443
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 2: that wasn't the first time that he asked that question

444
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 2: to a remember of the mass did. And there's little

445
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 2: doubt in my mind that after all the years he

446
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 2: spent in the community, that at least a few people

447
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 2: said yes. Why else would god fearing, family loving folks

448
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: keep a guy like him around if not for skeletons,

449
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 2: literally skeletons, what's worse And I'm sorry to drop this

450
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: bombshell on you. Shahik was grooming the more troubled boys

451
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: in the community to become killers, letting them touch his

452
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: guns at first, then taking them out shooting, and then

453
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: out on hits. I talked to one of these guys.

454
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: It took him decades to get his life on track.

455
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 2: For the life of me, I can't understand how a

456
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 2: person like Shaheed could fly under the radar in such

457
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: a small commute unity. AmAm Jamil would ultimately pay a

458
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 2: price because after Shahid got out of prison and returned

459
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: to the community, he was on the federal payroll as

460
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: an FBI and foreman. I don't know how anyone could

461
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 2: be surprised by that. Everyone knew Shahid had already cooperated once,

462
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 2: but he was secretly helping the FED to build another case.

463
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: In the nineties, long before September eleventh, the FBI was

464
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 2: targeting alleged Muslim extremists. There was a surveillance operation named

465
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 2: Vulgar Betrayal. We know from the documents obtained by Karema Alamin,

466
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: a Mam Jamil's wife, that the FBI suspected A Maam

467
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 2: Jamil was some kind of terrorists or maybe supporting Islamic

468
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 2: terrorists abroad. One report describes as Maam Jamil as a

469
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 2: leader of a network of master JITs with international connections

470
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 2: that are basically fronts for criminal activity. It's true that

471
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil had some relationships with Muslims abroad, but was

472
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 2: he a terrorist. We've seen zero evidence of that. Meanwhile,

473
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 2: people in the West End were still losing their lives,

474
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 2: people right there in a Maam Jamil's neighborhood. From what

475
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: we can see in the documents, the FBI wasn't so

476
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 2: concerned about that. Shahidz Handler was the FBI agent Bill Gant,

477
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 2: who appeared to surveil A Maam Jamil in the mass

478
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: Jed for most of the nineties. We don't know much

479
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: about Gan except that he started to work for the

480
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: FBI in the late eighties and he allegedly got into

481
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: it once with one of his supervisors for pursuing a

482
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: Mam Jamil even after he'd been ordered to stop while

483
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: he was under oath. Gant set his role in the

484
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 2: investigation of a man Jamil and the mass jed ended

485
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 2: at the beginning of ninety five, but months later, in

486
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 2: the summer of ninety five, he helped arrest of Maam

487
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 2: Jamil after he was accused of shooting that man in

488
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: West End Park William Miles, and then a year later

489
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: in ninety six. This was after Shahied was connected to

490
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 2: at least three killings over the previous year and a half.

491
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 2: Gant said he had contact with Shahied once a week,

492
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: and he had seen him in person two weeks earlier.

493
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 2: Gant was meeting with a killer on the regular. Atlanta

494
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: police were looking into all the bodies piling up in

495
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 2: the West End, and Shahid seemed to be telling the

496
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 2: cops that people other than himself were involved, possibly even

497
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: saying that a Maam Jamil was calling the shots. By

498
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 2: around ninety six, local police knew that Shahied was at

499
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: least connected to multiple killings. A detective in the Atlanta

500
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: Police Department was investigating, and he brought in Gant for

501
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: an interview. The detective wrote up a summary afterward. He

502
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: said that Gant appeared nervous. He did not volunteer information

503
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 2: unless specifically asked in investigand how much he was paying Shahied,

504
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: but Gan wouldn't say. When Gan asked which murders were

505
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 2: linked to Shahied, the detective said, all the homicides in

506
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: the West End area. Here's Rodney Brown again.

507
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 3: L beyond agent. The agent knew, maybe found out later on,

508
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 3: but he had to find out that boy was killing people.

509
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 2: He had to.

510
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 3: If you investigating Jamil, and I mean the West End

511
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 3: and all these boys coming up dead from the West End,

512
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 3: what the fuck while we're investigate Now we say, okay,

513
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 3: this guy got killed. This guy, Now the next question

514
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 3: who killed him? So that would have led him back

515
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 3: to Shahid, Right, come on, man, that is just no,

516
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 3: none of it really makes sense.

517
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: What if Shahied's telling them that Jamil is the one

518
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: who's doing it, do you think they would believe.

519
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 3: That that Jamil is committing to.

520
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: Miss Jamila is ordering it. And so this is you

521
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 2: talk about how Shahid's playing everybody. Maybe he was playing

522
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: them too, and he was.

523
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 3: That's a good fact. He deathinitely was telling him that.

524
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 3: But still of them or how many of us would

525
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: they want.

526
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: To sacrifice to bust it?

527
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 3: It ain't like they're selling bricks, man, We're dealing with

528
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 3: people's bodies. They want a drug deal?

529
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 2: How many of us, Rodney asked, would they be willing

530
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: to sacrifice to bust a man? Jamil to me, all

531
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: this clearly says some human lives were dispensable in whatever

532
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: grand calculation the FEDS were making. Black lives troubled lives.

533
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: At the time of the shootout involving the Fulton County

534
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: Sheriff's deputies in March of two thousand, Shahid was in

535
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 2: prison on a parole violation. After he got out, he

536
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: kept killing. In March of two thousand and two, he

537
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: shot someone in the back of the head and killed them.

538
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: Then he killed another person later that year and the

539
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: next year he was involved in at least two more murders.

540
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 2: In two thousand and four, narcotics detectives targeting a drug

541
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: house found Shahed with guns and drugs. They arrested him

542
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 2: with him off the streets. Another man from the West

543
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: End told law enforcement about at least one murder he

544
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 2: knew Shahid was responsible for. An Atlanta police detective went

545
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 2: to interview Shahed, and Shahid started confessing. By our count

546
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: he was involved in killing at least eleven people, but

547
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: he allegedly killed many more. There was a story about

548
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: his confession in Atlanta's biggest newspaper, the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

549
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: It had the following line, Police believed the death toll

550
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 2: may be as high as fifty fifty bodies. Rodney thinks

551
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 2: the number is even higher. Shahid is now serving a

552
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: life sentence in prison. Finally, he tried to appeal his conviction,

553
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: arguing that the recorded confession shouldn't be admissible, but the

554
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 2: Georgia Supreme Court rejected his appeal. We couldn't get an

555
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: interview with Shahied, but we got this recording that someone

556
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: made of him.

557
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: When you look at that article, like I don't have

558
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 3: to deal with that article a lot of times.

559
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 5: You know, I'm saying he's in here.

560
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 3: You got some niggas want to say I'm a rat.

561
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: You know that. Ain't that Ain't that ain't delayed when

562
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: you want to be having any prison, know what I mean.

563
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: In the recording, Shahid doesn't deny that he killed anyone.

564
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: He suggests that he confessed to make a point, basically

565
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 2: to brag about how many murders he committed. Shahid was

566
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 2: mad at the man who snitched on him to get

567
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: a deal. I'm gonna keep awading with you, I said.

568
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 3: I look, so y'all, let y'all don't even lock these

569
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 3: niggas up about one murder.

570
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 5: I tell you what I think about twenty murders? Do

571
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 5: you let the niggas out for one body?

572
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: That?

573
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 2: Basically, Shahid said, if you left this other guy off

574
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 2: because he gave you information on one murder, I'll show

575
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: you I can give you information on way more than

576
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 2: just one murder.

577
00:32:58,120 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 3: When he comes to the west hand, man, I look

578
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 3: at it like split up with your man.

579
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 5: It's like, you know, ain't nobody perfect?

580
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 4: Bro?

581
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 6: You don't We all got skeletons When.

582
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: It comes to the west end, Shahid said, we all

583
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: got skeletons. This one guy played a huge part in

584
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: who a mam Jamil came to be. In the eyes

585
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 2: of local and federal law enforcement built him up into

586
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,959
Speaker 2: parts mobster and terrorists. It's impossible for me to separate

587
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 2: fact from fiction here or again to really know why

588
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: mam Jamil kept a guy like Shaheed around. But shouldn't

589
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: there have been limits to a man Jamil's policy of

590
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: keeping the mass shed open for anyone to practice is

591
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 2: slam Limit's far short of turning a blind eye to

592
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: a serial killer. From where I stand, keeping Shahid around

593
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: was either a severe miscalculation on the Mam Jamil's part,

594
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: or he was okay with the violence, maybe even endorsed it.

595
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: I do know that a Mam Jamil traded on fear.

596
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 2: Many people in the West End were scared of him.

597
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,959
Speaker 2: That's part of the way he brought the neighborhood under control.

598
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: How he cleaned it up one of the accusations in

599
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 2: the synopsis of Western homicides I haven't told you about yet.

600
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 2: It's a case that could be helpful in determining where

601
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 2: Shahid's stories end and the Maam Jamil's own actions begin.

602
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 2: The very first victim listed in the dossier was a

603
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: man whose name was Clive Hunter, though he also went

604
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: by a Muslim name. Clive served prison time with the

605
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 2: Maam Jamil in New York. By some accounts, he taught

606
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 2: a man Jamil slam after he converted, and a Maam

607
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 2: Jamil pledged loyalty to him, and Mam Jamil left prison

608
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 2: first moved to Atlanta and established the Weston MASSTJD. When

609
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: Clive got out later, he figured that Maschd was his

610
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 2: to take over since a Maam Jamil had pledged loyalty.

611
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 2: Long story short, A rivalry developed that ended in nineteen

612
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 2: eighty when Clive was shot to death by assailants who

613
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 2: were never identified. Some folks in the community thought of

614
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 2: Maam Jimiale was behind it, and this was before Shahid

615
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: ever got to town. It places a body at the

616
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 2: foundation of everything that came afterward. These are the names

617
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: of the people in the West End who lost their lives,

618
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 2: the ones we know about Kennedy Keller, Clive Hunter, James Farrell,

619
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 2: Tommy Jones, Quantavius Kelly, Carlon Wilson, Jamie Lee, James, Sammy

620
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: Lee Sawyer, Roderick Fulton, Damon Brown, Clarence Poon, Andre Lane,

621
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: Jacqueline Johnson, Marlins, Antonio Wyatt, James, Gary Jones, Cornelius, James Nelson,

622
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 2: Perry Miller, Tommy Warren, Corey Dunn, Corey Whitehead, Shannon Frasier,

623
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: and Calvin Battle. Many people Rodney knew from the West

624
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 2: End were killed over about a decade, most of them

625
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: by Shahid ab du Rahman, a man who was paid

626
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: by the federal government. Remember, someone in the Atlanta Police

627
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 2: Department said Shahid may have killed as many as fifty people.

628
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: That would rank him along the top three most prolific

629
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 2: known serial killers in modern American history. Rodney has become

630
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 2: obsessed with all these cases. He wrote a book from

631
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 2: the West End to Loyal Pakistan. He called it about

632
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 2: Muslims moving into the neighborhood, and he's about to publish

633
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 2: the sequel, looking more closely at Shahida. He's working on

634
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: a documentary too. But the murder that Rodney seems to

635
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 2: think about the most is the one of his partner,

636
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 2: Lee Sawyer.

637
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 3: Me and Lee was like brothers, the best of brothers.

638
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, we was.

639
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 3: Lee was a wild guy. He was a guy. H

640
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 3: He's the hardest guy. He wasn't he wasn't afraid of anything,

641
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 3: and that's kind of dangerous, you know. But he was

642
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 3: the coolest person, give you anything, real good host, a

643
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 3: ladies man, you know, you get him mad. He was

644
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 3: just he he could beat you to death with his hand.

645
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 3: He was that type of guy. But he was everybody.

646
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 3: If you ask anybody else, they'll say he was a

647
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 3: night always smile. That's how I say. He was always

648
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 3: big smile.

649
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: Lee's mom visits Rodney sometimes.

650
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 3: And with her she she ain't never gonna recover from it.

651
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 2: There are mothers and fathers and children connected to all

652
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 2: the people killed in the West End, and Rodney thinks

653
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 2: about them.

654
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 3: People that was in charge. They need an answer to

655
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 3: these people. The victim they need answer to. It's a

656
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 3: victim impact behind this. They need some answers man, because

657
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 3: it is too much. It's just it's so much, and

658
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 3: you know, I'm just stretching the surface on this man.

659
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: Maybe most of all, Rodney wants more attention on the

660
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: whole mess.

661
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 3: That ain't news. I think it's ridiculous. I I just

662
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 3: look at it like every day, like if this ain't

663
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 3: world news, what is what we're watching now?

664
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: You know, we tried our best to put Rodney's questions

665
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: in our questions to the people in charge. I'll start

666
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 2: at the bottom. The Atlanta detective who investigated some of

667
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 2: the killings in the mid nineties, he did an agree

668
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: to an interview. Really, it seems like he did his

669
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 2: best to make something happen with these cases. He interviewed

670
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: the FBI agent Agan, and he took the evidence he

671
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 2: had to prosecutors.

672
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 6: I did have presented to me a collection of investigations

673
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 6: into these deaths.

674
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: When Robert McBurney, the prosecutor, was with the Fulton County DA,

675
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: he reviewed some materials about the killing of drug dealers

676
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 2: in the West End. It was years before he was

677
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 2: assigned to a man Jamial's murder trial.

678
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 6: Some leads and theories as to how they might be

679
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,479
Speaker 6: connected and who might connect them, but it never got

680
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 6: to the level where I or anyone I talked with,

681
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 6: was comfortable saying, that's a case we could bring get

682
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 6: past a grand jury.

683
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 2: That's less difficult.

684
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 6: But ultimately, were we confident that we could prove something

685
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 6: beyond a reasonable doubt. If you don't have that confidence,

686
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 6: you really shouldn't then say, great, we're going to indict you. Anyway,

687
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 6: there was nothing. There was zero on the forensic side.

688
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 6: But there were people who said things, but not necessarily

689
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 6: people who would come to court to say these things.

690
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: Maybe Shahid was good at killing people and not getting caught.

691
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: That seems legit, And it's not mcburnie's job or the

692
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: job of other prosecutors to gather evidence for a case.

693
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:21,399
Speaker 2: Still McBurnie or other prosecutors the DA, maybe they could

694
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: have pushed for more attention within law enforcement on these murders.

695
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 2: We know there were meetings, but we don't see any

696
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 2: evidence of an elevated level of concern like you might

697
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 2: expect for a potential serial killer on the loose. On

698
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,240
Speaker 2: the federal side of things, let's consider the biggest potential

699
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: allegation against AmAm Jamil during the nineties, that he was

700
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 2: an the Islamic terrorist. Again, to be clear here, we

701
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: know that AmAm Jamil has some connections with Muslim leaders abroad,

702
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 2: but we have seen no evidence of any terrorist activity.

703
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: But for argument's sake, let's say the FBI knew something

704
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 2: that we don't know. Maybe that would in their minds

705
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 2: justifies I'm going to say radical steps by the federal government,

706
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 2: like using a murderer as an informant. Maybe they would

707
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: consider it worth it to allow some harm in order

708
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 2: to prevent even greater harm, like a big terrorist attack

709
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 2: or something. But when I asked Bernie about this, who

710
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 2: by the way, was hired as a federal prosecutor after

711
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 2: AmAm Dmil's trial, he said, building a case based on

712
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 2: information from a guy like Shaheed u dur Rahman, it

713
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 2: would have been shoddy police work.

714
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 6: This was an area and a climate and a community

715
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 6: where it advanced people's interests to say they were involved

716
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 6: or they weren't. They did these things and they didn't.

717
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 6: But the scenario you described would be yet another reason

718
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,399
Speaker 6: why I think it didn't make sense to if that's

719
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 6: going to be your source of information. Is like one

720
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 6: of these mob cases where yeah, I killed twenty people,

721
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 6: but let me tell you who the real bad guy is. Well,

722
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 6: what do you mean the fact.

723
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 2: That you pulled the trigger?

724
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 6: Who where's your credibility? Even if your answer is well,

725
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 6: but did it on the direction of so and so,

726
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 6: I do know that federal agents would not be permitted

727
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 6: to continue to use a source if that source engaged

728
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 6: in unauthorized activity, and certainly killing someone would be unauthorized.

729
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 6: And certainly, had there been any evidence that he did

730
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 6: these things, not only would he be pursued and prosecuted,

731
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 6: but there would have been no more relationship between him

732
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 6: and his handlers.

733
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 2: Right. But in either case, if he did these things

734
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 2: while on informant, that would be a violation of some sort.

735
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 6: Oh, I'd agree, it's a violation of the law.

736
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,280
Speaker 2: He's a murderer, and.

737
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 6: I am confident that if a federal handler had any

738
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 6: inkling that abdur Rockman was doing anything along the lines

739
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 6: of what you're describing and what he's describing, that would

740
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 6: have been the end of it for Abdurachman. He'd be

741
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 6: off the streets and in custody.

742
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 2: So baced on mcburnie's criteria here, I think it's fair

743
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 2: to say the FBI messed up, maybe even broke its

744
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 2: own rules for the law in the years after Gant

745
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 2: helped Shahid get out of prison, he should have known

746
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 2: that Shahied was killing people. Sure, maybe it was more

747
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 2: of a problem for Atlanta police to handle. It was

748
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 2: their jurisdiction. Maybe this is an issue of failed oversight

749
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 2: in communication, but we know Gant was at least still

750
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 2: close to an investigation of a man, Jamil. How could

751
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: all these killings in the same neighborhood not come up?

752
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 2: Hi looking for a mister Gant. Yeah, my name is

753
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 2: Mostly's secret. I'm here with Johnny Coffin. We're producers working

754
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 2: on a podcast about Jamille Alami.

755
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 4: Okay, are you familiar with him?

756
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 2: All we got from Gant through the door of his

757
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: apartment was a not interested and a thank you. We

758
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 2: left him a letter, but we never heard back. We

759
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 2: also emailed the FBI a list of questions. Nothing back

760
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 2: from them either. Despite all the death and destruction, the

761
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 2: FBI still didn't make a case against a man Jamil,

762
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 2: but the bureau persisted in the West End even after

763
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,879
Speaker 2: Shahid was locked up in the late nineties. They had

764
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 2: other informants there and they were surveilling the mass right

765
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 2: up to the time of the shootout, and so it

766
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 2: seems possible on the night of March sixteen to two thousand,

767
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 2: someone with the FBI, maybe an informant, maybe an agent,

768
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 2: would end up with blood on their hands too. He

769
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 2: was very irritable and upset about what was going on,

770
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 2: and I had never seen him like that before that

771
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 2: on the next and final episode of Radical. Radical is

772
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 2: a production of Campside Media, Tenderfoot TV, and iHeart Podcasts.

773
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 2: Radical was reported and written by Johnny Kaufman and me

774
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 2: Mossey's Secret Johnny Kaufman is our senior producer. Sheba Joseph

775
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 2: is our associate producer. Editing by Eric Benson. Johnny Kaufman,

776
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 2: Emily Martinez and Matt Cher. Fact checking by Sophie Hurwitz,

777
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: Kayln Lynch and Layla Dos. Original music by Kyle Murdoch

778
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 2: and by Ray Murray of Organized Noise. Sound design and

779
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: mixing by Kevin Seaman. Recording by Ewan Le trem Ewen

780
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 2: and Sheba Joseph. Campside Media's operations team is Doug Slaywan,

781
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 2: Ashley Warren, Alijah Papes, Destiny Dingle, and Sabina Mera. The

782
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: executive producers at Campside Media are Josh Dean Vanessa, Gregoriatis,

783
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 2: Adam Hoff, and Matt Cher. For Tenderfoot TV, executive producers

784
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. The executive producers at

785
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts are Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, with additional

786
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 2: support from Trevor Young,