1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Continuing coverage. Now more family members associated with the Wagners 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: take the witness stand against George Wagner the fourth Can 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: you tell us what your relationship was like with the Angela? 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: I did not like her? And why was that she 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: was so judgmental? She would judge people when she had 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: more skeletons in her closet than anybody. Now, during cross examination, 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: Chris Newcomb told defense attorney John Parker that George Wagner 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: is like the brother he always wanted. He had far 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: less kind things to say about Jake. If I'd have 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: had Jake in front of me at the time, I'd 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: probably beat him, do an ens of his life. Why 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: something like that should have never been done? Ever? That 13 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: is a monstrous act in my opinion. Even Shakespeare compared 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: the trial to a grant stage that people kind of 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: present on. The only difference is is you know at 16 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: the end of play you're going to go home. But 17 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: with this born to death row, this is the Pike 18 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: Did Massacre Return to Pike County Season four, episode fifteen, 19 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: Just like the movies, I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer 20 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: at KAT Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. The 21 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: murder trial of George Wagner the Fourth, taking place in 22 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: the Little Red Courthouse in Waverley, Ohio, continues. A fall 23 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: chill is beginning to grip the small town, with overcast 24 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: guys and temperatures in the low fifties. There's a promise 25 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: of a much more abiding winter ahead. In the biggest 26 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: criminal proceeding in Ohio's history, Special Prosecutor Angie Kineppa is 27 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: seeking justice for the execution style murders of eight members 28 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: of the Rodin, Gilly, and Manly families in twenty sixteen. 29 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: It's been a profoundly emotional trial well, as the Rodent 30 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: family members and friends have been forced to relive the 31 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 1: earth shattering murders that left their family in ruins, murders 32 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: that George Wagner the Fourth's defense team claims he had 33 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: nothing to do with. George Wagner has pled not guilty 34 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: to all charges, as has his father, Billy Wagner, whose 35 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,679 Speaker 1: child is upcoming. George's brother Jake, and his mother Angela 36 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: have already pled guilty. While it's true that there's been 37 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: little hard evidence tying George Wagner to the actual crime scenes, 38 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: prosecutor Kneppa has mounted a strong argument that the Wagners 39 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 1: did everything as in inexetorable Unit Today. Usher's in several 40 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: critical new witnesses, including Angela Wagner's half brother, Chris Newcomb. 41 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: They share a mother, Rita Newcombe, but Chris is twenty 42 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: years Angela's junior. Technically he's Jake and George Wagner's uncle, 43 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: but they're so close in age they're more like brothers. 44 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: Newcomb wears a gray shirt, black sweatshirt and has a 45 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: thick huffed of hair on his chin. Here he is 46 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: being examined on the stand. Can you tell us the 47 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 1: dynamics between your sister Angela and her two sons, Jake 48 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: and George? How would you describe that relationship? On her part, 49 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: controlling is I'll get out? Okay? Tell me about that. 50 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: What do you mean by controlling as I'll get out? 51 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: Would she tell him to jump by jump? I think 52 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: that's plightest way I can put that. Did she also 53 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: try to exact control over you? I'll try to try 54 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: to several times, okay? And specifically, would she try to 55 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: exert control over you regarding your children or how you were? 56 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: She did a few times. So I told her certain things. Yeah, 57 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: I ain't gonna say exactly what I said to her, 58 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: but just respond to the question. Okay. So she attempted 59 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: to but she was not successful. It's W in that regard, Yeah, correct, okay, 60 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: And can you tell us w what her relationship was 61 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: like with Billy? Goat, give me a minute. Uh, dysfunctional 62 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: sounds alright? You take? And why do you say that? Well, 63 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: if you know Billy, you d pretty much know why 64 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: it was dysfunctional. Okay, And so so go ahead and 65 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: tell me about that. Tell me about your observations or 66 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: your experience with Billy. He's about it. Uselessness, that's on 67 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: the borehole. Okay, I'm sorry, man' I allowed to say that, Yes, 68 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. And and why I why do you say that? Specifically? 69 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: Lazy didn't wanna do nothing, always running these mouths, always 70 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: scheming on some way or another, Kay, grinding his teeth 71 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: beyond recognition. That's a nupt in by crazy Chris Newcomb 72 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: was woven into the Wagner family fabric. He bought amphetamines 73 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: for Billy Wagner and guns for George. And specifically, did 74 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: you ever help George locate a forty caliber block. Yes, 75 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: tell me about that? What you would call from that? 76 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: He asked me to try to find him a forty 77 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: caliber block. He said it probably a hard one to find. 78 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: I ended up finding one. I had it, and I 79 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: wanting to say, live in the Hillsboro and I'm not 80 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: one hundred percent short on certain on that. Through a 81 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: Facebook mark place, I messaged in. Then I message George 82 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: told him what it was. Uh. He said, We'll try 83 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: to get it if you can. He said, if not, 84 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: don't worry about it. I tried to get it, and 85 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:47,559 Speaker 1: I end up getting it, and we end up meeting 86 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: in the truck stop right down there by the peoples. 87 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: As we'll learn, a glock magazine was found among the 88 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,799 Speaker 1: murder weapons that were discovered by investigators. It was hidden 89 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: in a concrete bucket the bottom of a pond at 90 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,119 Speaker 1: the Wagner's Flying w farm. When Chris Nucom first learned 91 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: of the Wagner's possible involvement in the homicides and the 92 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: Wagners asked him not to cooperate with the BCI, he 93 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: was devastated. Was there ever a time that Jake or 94 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: George or Angela told you not to talk to BCI. Yes, 95 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: and who told you that Angela Jake? George, you became 96 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: aware that Jake put guilty in this case? Correct? Yep? Okay? 97 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: Prior to that point, had you more or less defended them? Yes? 98 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: I did? And can you tell us how you felt 99 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: at that time? Enraged? Tell me about that. If I'd 100 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: have had Jake in front of me at the time, 101 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: I'd probably beat him doing that ship of his life. 102 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: I would have believed a thousand times my family had 103 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: nothing whatsoever to do with this. And then it just 104 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: made me look like the biggest city of coming and 105 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: going whenever Jake came out in capacity to it. And 106 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: I just felt, I can't think of a right word. 107 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: I want to say a certain word, but I can't 108 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: think of what it is. Trying to think of the 109 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: word I'm looking for, betrayed. But Newcomb took pains to 110 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: paint George Wagner in a more favorable light than the 111 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: rest of his family. According to Chris, George was fun 112 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: and laid back. He loved whipping around on his ATV 113 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: until he was covered head stone mud. Jake, on the 114 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,679 Speaker 1: other hand, was uptight and harascible about everything, particularly people. 115 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: Treading dirt onto his truck. Here's Stephanie and Jeff hearing 116 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: Chris Newcomb say the word betrayed. I mean, that's really 117 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: the word that probably sums it up best. Here, your 118 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: very best friend in all of the world, someone you 119 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: consider like a brother. You defend them to the death 120 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: again and again and again, and then you find out 121 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: that they were all lying to you. Yeah, And I 122 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: feel like Chris Newcomb's testimony really paints a good contrast 123 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: of the personality differences between Jake's controlling nature kind of 124 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: being similar to Angela in that way, and George being 125 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: so different from members of his family. He could seem 126 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: like a character witness for George Wagner because as we know, 127 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, he considered him a brother and was shocked 128 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: and an almost disbelief that he could be involved with 129 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: these murders and that they would actually do something that 130 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: in many ways harmed his own mother, Rita Newcomb, who's 131 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: also Angela's mother. He said it here in the podcast 132 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: last season that he'll never forgive his half sister, Angela 133 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: Wagner for what she did to his mother. I mean, 134 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: even just being in the courtroom and seeing George for 135 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: the very first time after all of these years, knowing 136 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: what he's standing accused of, knowing that his testimony is 137 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: also a part of that trial that's going to frankly 138 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: be used against him. That's a hard line to walk. Yes, 139 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: if there's been a few people that we've talked to 140 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: over the years that have kind of had to grapple 141 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: with what they knew about the Wagner's versus what they're 142 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: accused of doing. And I think Chris Newcombe really encapsulates this, 143 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: and we hear in his testimony, I mean, I think 144 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: he really wavers on his feelings toward the family. In 145 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: the cross examination, defense attorney John Parker drew a stark 146 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: dividing line between the Wagner brothers. It's George and Jake. 147 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: Are they the same? Nope? Explain it if you could, 148 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: and day, night and day. Can you give me some 149 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: more details how George is different than Jake. Me and him, 150 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: we vibed a lot better because we both like about 151 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: the same things. Okay, we had a lot of the 152 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: same enters. Uh, Jake not so much. All right, It's 153 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: we was all like brothers. Yes, he was like the 154 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: brother that always wanted. Jake was like the brother wish 155 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: I never had. And if you needed something in the 156 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 1: middle of the night, could you call George absolute he'd 157 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: show up in the middle of the night, absolutely, no questions. 158 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 1: Ask Angie Kinneppa, however, was quick to diffuse any notion 159 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: that George was all that different from the rest of 160 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: the Wagner clan. And you indicated that Jake would basically 161 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: fall into line pretty quickly with Angela. Correct, but George 162 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: might push back a little more. He would push back, okay, 163 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: in the end, would you still do what his mother 164 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: told him to do most of the time? Yeah, okay, 165 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: So he'd argue, but in the end he would do 166 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: what you said. Yeah, okay. And again, the first time 167 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: they went to Alaska, was that as a family? All 168 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 1: four of them? Yes, okay? And when they went back 169 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: to Alaska again, it was all four of them as 170 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: a family, correct, all four of them plusure the kids, 171 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:51,119 Speaker 1: you know, the two kids, right, okay? And during George's 172 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: adult life, have you ever known him not to live 173 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: with his mother and his brother? No one thing Jake 174 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: and George did see eye to I on was there 175 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: favorite movie and TV show? According to Chris Nukom, they 176 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: were Boondock Saints and The Walking Dead. And it was 177 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: both Jake and George who said that their favorite movie 178 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: was boon Dock Saints. Pretty sure, And can you tell 179 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: us generally what the theme of that movie is? Two 180 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: brothers and their idiot friend, uh kill a bunch of 181 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: mafia guys and it man and anybody had anything to 182 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: do with the mafia. And in one of this series, 183 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: does the father also join them? That's boon Dock Saints too. Yeah. 184 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: Can you tell us was there a time that you 185 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: saw both Jake and George with their hair dyed dark? Yes? Okay? 186 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: And can you tell him tell me how you remember that? 187 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: They just showed up at the house one day and 188 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: I told him it it looked stupid or dumb? And 189 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: was there any common made by either one of them 190 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: explaining why they had dyed their hair? Jake was laughing 191 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: and said, don't you think I looked like Darryl? And 192 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: I thought, not even close? And who is Darryl character 193 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: off The Walking Dead? Okay? And that character is played 194 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: by Norman Retis correct? Yes, And he also plays one 195 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: of the brothers in Boondock Saints. Correct, yes? And can 196 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: you remember when that was in relation to the homicides. 197 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: When you saw them with their hair died. I can't remember. 198 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 1: It was right before, right after, somewhere around in there. Okay, 199 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: we're going to take a break. We'll be back in 200 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: a moment. During her questioning, Kneppa showed a clip from 201 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: Boondock Saints to the jury. Law and Order crime reporter 202 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: Anjeannette Levy, who has been following the case in the 203 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: beginning and was in the courtroom, explains the boon Dog 204 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: Saint clip. We kind of knew a long time ago 205 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: from seeing some court records that that was somehow relevant 206 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: or the prosecution believed that was pertinent to the case 207 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: or had some something to do with the case. And 208 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: it's just like this clip of I guess a Mexican 209 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: man holding up to nineteen eleven twenty two calibers with 210 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: silencers on them and saying ding dong, mother efforts. So 211 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: there are two brothers in that movie who are twins 212 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: and they go out on this vigilante killing spree in 213 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: the name of religion. And Chris Newcom testified that this 214 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: was Jake and George's favorite movie. So we think that 215 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: the prosecution is going to say, hey, this is, you know, 216 00:13:54,160 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: something they liked, This is something that influenced them. Here again, 217 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: Stephanie and Jeff. These movie references, in the fact that 218 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: George and Jake both dye their hair black, has gotten 219 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 1: a lot of play throughout this trial. And on the 220 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: one hand, yeah, of course it's very interesting and strange 221 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: and scary. On the flip of that, does that really 222 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: count as major evidence. We've heard a lot over the 223 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: years about various criminals being influenced by the media, whether 224 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: it be a violent video game or a scary movie, 225 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: and I think this is a perfect example of the 226 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: prosecution really making a meal of that and whether or 227 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: not it actually was an influence. It's, like you said, 228 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: stuff very hard to prove in court, and there's a 229 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: million holes you could poke in it. Again, it does 230 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: make it interesting. You could see the movie. You can 231 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: see this playing out like a movie, but this is 232 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: real life. The stakes are so high. I had a 233 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: conversation with Jason Flomm, founding board member of The Innocence Project, 234 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: host of the hit podcast Wrongful Conviction, and producer of 235 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: the podcasts Bone Valley and the newly released War on Drugs. 236 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: I asked him first about his connection to the movie 237 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: Boondock Saints. I think I was working at Atlantic Records 238 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: at the time, but I don't remember which label it was, 239 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: to be fair, because you know, my day job is 240 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: and has been as a music executive. Now it seems 241 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: like a more well known for criminal justice reform work. 242 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: But I have been in the music business since I 243 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: was eighteen years old, and that's a lot of years anyway, 244 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: So I was working at a label and Boondock Saints 245 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: came to my attention. The singer Troy had written this 246 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: script that had become the object of a huge bidding 247 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: war in Hollywood. I learned that he had a band 248 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: by the same name as the movie and the script, 249 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: which was called the Boondock Saints. So naturally I was 250 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: curious because this seemed like such an almost too good 251 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: to be true story, bartender bidding war, you know, the 252 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: whole thing. So I don't remember how I first got 253 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: in touch with them, but somehow and ended up meeting 254 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: with the guys. I think I may have seen them 255 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: play and I was impressed and the music was good, 256 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: so I signed them to a record deal. Can you 257 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the cultural relevancy of the movie. 258 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it was a phenomenon that's obviously still talked 259 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: about today. Yeah, the movie you know became this I 260 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: guess you could call it a cult classic. I don't 261 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: know how else to refer to it. I think in 262 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: terms of its impact relative to its commercial success, you 263 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: put it at the top of that sort of matrix 264 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: right where. It's been talked about and continues to be 265 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: talked about in shows like yours for the most random 266 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: of reasons. And it's such a crazy coincidence that I 267 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: have the connection to the Boondock scenes, and because I've 268 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: always been a, you know, a rock guy, I've always 269 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: liked rock and roll music, as I've signed rock and 270 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: roll music throughout my career. It's amazing that this movie 271 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: has resonated when how many tens of thousands of movies 272 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: have been made since then, and many of them are, 273 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: you know, have lots of guns and lots of shootings 274 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: and lots of violence and lots of everything that The 275 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: Bundak Saints has, But this one, for some reason, has 276 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: really stuck in this eitgeist. What are your thoughts about 277 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: the fact that the prosecution in a murder trial is 278 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: playing a clip of the movie specifically they play the 279 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: ding dong motherfucker portion of it. And also, you know 280 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: what they're saying is that the Wagner's the family that 281 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: specifically Jake, who admitted to murdering five of the eight murderers, 282 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 1: that he watched it right before to get psyched up 283 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: quote for the murders. I mean that is a sort 284 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: of dirty trick that's used, you know. Now, I guess 285 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: it's a hot topic because it's used in these trials 286 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: where they're actually almost trying hip hop artists on their lyrics. Right, 287 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: they're using those as like evidence when it's art. You know, 288 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: it's like, it's not it's not an affid David Like 289 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: David Bolways sang a song about being an astronaut, but 290 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: he wasn't an astronaut, right, nobody's confused about that. The 291 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: idea that these things can or should be used in 292 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: a court of law strikes me as absurd. And maybe 293 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: that's too kind of a word. You know, you look 294 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 1: back on cases like the West Memphis three, right, where 295 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: the idea that they liked heavy metal music was a 296 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: big they had no evidence against them. It's hard for 297 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: me to see how that's relevant. To me, it seems 298 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: whether it happened or not, just so besides the point 299 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: and the relevancy in a court of law seems insane 300 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: to me. I think it's a very cynical way of 301 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: prosecutors trying to manipulate juries into believing what they want 302 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: them to believe, and not in this case necessarily, but 303 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: in many cases often because they have no evidence against 304 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: the person, like the West Memphis three, but more recently, 305 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: you know, we did a podcast on my show, Wrongful Conviction. 306 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: We covered the case of Patty prew At. Maggie Feeling 307 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: hosted that episode, and Patty Prewitt was and is an 308 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: innocent woman in Missouri who's been in prison for thirty 309 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: six years, and the only evidence they really had against 310 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: her was the fact that she liked to read crime novels. 311 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what people read. They read romance novels, 312 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: they read crime novels. It doesn't mean anything, it just 313 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: means that's what they like to read. So, you know, 314 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: the idea that they were able to weaponize the fact 315 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: that she enjoyed books by whether it's Scott Patterson or 316 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: Scott Turo or John Grisham, is so you know, it 317 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: would be laughable if it wasn't so sinister. And I 318 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: think there's a line. It's not the same, but there's 319 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: a line between these things. And I hope that people 320 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: that are listening to us now when they serve on jury, 321 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: will remember this and discount any sort of nonsense that's 322 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: thrown their way along these lines. Again, much has been 323 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: made in court about the fact that Jake and George 324 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: dyed their hair black, allegedly to look like Norman Ritis 325 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: not Saints. You know, do you think that should be 326 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: a topic of conversation in a murder trial? Or and 327 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: let's say they dyed their hair blonde to look like 328 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: the guy in Fast Times at Richmond High, right, I mean, like, 329 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: you know, does that mean that they didn't do it? 330 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: Because if one is true, then shouldn't the other be true? 331 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: I mean, what what does that have to do with anything? 332 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: It all comes back to the same thing, which is that, 333 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, one of the reasons why I do this 334 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: work and why I think this platform is so important, 335 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: and the podcasting platform is so important, is because we 336 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: need to have a more educated and more skeptical pool 337 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 1: of jurors who will look at howctual evidence instead of 338 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: hyperbole in situation and other sorts of nonsense like I said, 339 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: that's thrown their way, and then make judgments on the facts. 340 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: And if I could encourage people that are listening, serve 341 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: on juries. Number one, don't throw out that jury doing 342 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: serve on juries. It's it's not just a responsibility, it 343 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: should be an honor. And second of all, when you do, 344 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: remember the standard is and must be beyond a reasonable doubt. 345 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 1: And the other phrase to remember is innocent until proven guilty, 346 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: not the other way around. Just because somebody's sitting in 347 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: a defendant's chair, and just because there's people in uniforms 348 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: or in suits and ties or in lab coats that 349 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: are saying, yep, you know Courtney did it because we 350 00:21:54,720 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: say so, And that's not that's not it. Unfortunately, it 351 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: seems like the situation has gotten it certainly doesn't feel 352 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: like it's getting better, but it almost feels like it's 353 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: just at a very low bar. What happens in our courtrooms, 354 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: we should expect that our elected prosecutors or judges or 355 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: appointed or whatever they may be, would adhere to a 356 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: standard that is, you know, the ideal that you know, 357 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: the justice with the scales and the blindfold, and that's 358 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: the standard. I hope I live long enough to see 359 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: it where we have a system that really does it, 360 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: at least does its best to get it right. Following 361 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: testimony about the Boondock Saints and potential relevancy of the 362 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: hair dye, there was also discussion of the profile picture 363 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: George Wagner began to use after the murders. It was 364 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,959 Speaker 1: a depiction of a one eyed wolf, whether or not 365 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: George Wagner was aware of it. Wolves are native symbols 366 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: of loyalty and close family ties. And was there also 367 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: something that you saw on Facebook that looking back? Uh, 368 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: there was a profile picture on Facebook? And what was 369 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: that wolf? Missing and eye? And why did that? When 370 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: looking back? What significance did that have to you? Just 371 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: kind of ironic, I guess you could call it? And 372 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: why was it ironic because it was a wolf shot 373 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: in the face? And were you aware of one of 374 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: the victims being shot in the eyes? Okay? And whose 375 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: profile was that? Georgios I hope you know the questions. 376 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: At this time, Yonner, we're going to take a break. 377 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. Joseph Morgan has doubts 378 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: about whether Chris Newcomb's testimony bolstered the prosecution's case. You know, 379 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: you think, well, when they got back to their office, 380 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 1: prosecution look at one another and say, yeah, I don't 381 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: necessarily know if mister Newton is the best best witness 382 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: for us in this case, because you know, when you're 383 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: you know, you began to paint George per the scuy's 384 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: testimony as not the monster that perhaps prosecution warned him painted, 385 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: as I don't know that he necessarily helped the prosecution's case. 386 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: More on that next time. I continued my conversation with 387 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: Jason Flomm, specifically his thoughts on people who have been 388 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted. The only thing I'll add is that for 389 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: the audience, you have such an awesome audience, and you know, 390 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: for them, I'll say, if you don't think this can 391 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: happen to you, this can happen to you. And if 392 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: you don't believe me, listen to wrongful Conviction. You'll see 393 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: it's like these stories are just absolutely mind blow. By 394 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: the way, if I start with the Patti Pruman episode, 395 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 1: your your head will explode and you'll want to literally 396 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: jump on a turnpike and drive to Missouri and protest, like, 397 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: what is this woman doing in prison? It doesn't make 398 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: any freaking sense. And that's true of every episode that 399 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: we covered. I can sincerely say I love your shows. 400 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: They're beautifully done, and as a listener, I really appreciate 401 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: everything you do. We're all in this together, and you know, 402 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: I'm very proud of where we're at. And you know, 403 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: with Bone Valley being such a big hit, and I'm 404 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 1: sure a lot of the fans of Pike and Massacre 405 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: probably fans of Bone Valley as well, and now we 406 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: have our new show, The War on Drugs that just 407 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: brought today. Though very excited about this twenty twenty three, 408 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: we're going to We're to continue to influence hearts and minds. 409 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because your show is sort of the 410 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: almost like a counterpoint. But at the same time, even 411 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: though it seems overwhelmingly likely that they got the right 412 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: people here in your show, it's still an incredible expose 413 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: of how busted up the system is in Ohio and elsewhere. 414 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: So I'm really proud of the work that you guys do. 415 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Jason, and really for more information 416 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram 417 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: at Kati Underscore Studios. The piked In Maskers produced by 418 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Alan Wieter, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo 419 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff 420 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: Ti Music by Jared Aston. The Pikedon Masker is a 421 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio and Katy Studios. For more podcasts 422 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 423 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please welcome 424 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: Markite County Domed Festival. Queen Lord, I just thank you 425 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: for bringing us all together as a community. Okay, I'm 426 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: all sad all over the house. Who could have killed 427 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: eight family members in one by I lost my best 428 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: friends and I will never be the same because of 429 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. The 430 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: killer left those children laying in their mother's blood. The 431 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: word that comes to mind is overkilled. Who was the 432 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: master mind? I'm having you is a crimer. I'm not 433 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: fitting in prison. One thing I learned. The smaller the town, 434 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: the bigger the sacreds. Be sure to watch our upcoming documentary, 435 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: The Pike County Murders, a Family Massacre, premiering on NBC 436 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: Universal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on Peacock this Thanksgiving 437 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 1: Day weekend November twenty fourth and November twenty fifth. Please 438 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: check your local listings and our hearts are with the 439 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: Rodents and the Gilly families.