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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. Greig Lawson is a friend of a friend,

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Speaker 1: a friend of Dave Schrader, who's been on the show often.

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Speaker 1: The host of the show The Holdser Files and then

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Speaker 1: The Ghosts of Devil's Perch, which we had Dave on

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Speaker 1: talking about a couple of times. Greg has a long

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Speaker 1: history investigating and exploring and researching things which people considered

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Speaker 1: to be paranormal, and he discusses these topics when he

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Speaker 1: goes out in the lecture circuit. Glad he gave him

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Speaker 1: some time tonight, Greg, how are you this evening. I'm

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Speaker 1: doing great. Thanks for having me. Well, come on, we're

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Speaker 1: the ones who are lucky. You're just kind of the

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Speaker 1: perfect guy for this gig because I think that not

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Speaker 1: just with your background in in your investigations with Roswell,

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Speaker 1: but you've done other things. You've had other books where

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Speaker 1: you've you know, like the the I saw on your website,

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Speaker 1: The Haunted Hillhouse, was like totally cool. I love that

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Speaker 1: um and that you can lecture on all sorts of

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Speaker 1: various topics. So we may we may run the gamut

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Speaker 1: with you, but let's start here. So you've been following

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Speaker 1: the story of the balloons, these different shaped balloons. Some

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Speaker 1: were cigar shaped, some were this shape, some were big,

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Speaker 1: some were small. What were you hearing in that in

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Speaker 1: though all of those different admissions or re pivots by

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Speaker 1: the by the Pentagon over the last couple of weeks. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's it's funny because if you look back in the

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Speaker 1: last couple of years, Um, they've changed some laws and

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Speaker 1: they put some stuff in the National Defense Authorization Act

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Speaker 1: that opens up some of these investigations and makes it

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Speaker 1: very much more transparent. Before. You know, if if if

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Speaker 1: a Navy flyer saw something, he would think, I really

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Speaker 1: want to report this because they're going to make fun

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Speaker 1: of me, right and when he would that information stayed

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Speaker 1: within the Department of the Navy. It didn't it was

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Speaker 1: not shared, uh, you know, in the National Defense So

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Speaker 1: now the laws have changed and they have to play

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Speaker 1: well with others and everybody is sharing this information also,

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Speaker 1: you know, they they they've opened it up to where um,

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Speaker 1: it's our responsibility as the government to look at this

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Speaker 1: and to share annually our report on UAP. So you

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Speaker 1: have all these government agencies that are now sharing this

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Speaker 1: information working together and uh, and they're compelled to do it,

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Speaker 1: which makes it fairly interesting there. Yeah, that's a very

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Speaker 1: interesting observation to start with, because, as I mentioned last night,

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Speaker 1: there's a Hulu series out which is a like a

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Speaker 1: like a primer on the history of the subject. Didn't

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Speaker 1: this country and how it developed? And there was a

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Speaker 1: concerted effort made by the government, like an actual symposia

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Speaker 1: that they had across the country of different thought leaders

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Speaker 1: to make sure that everybody got in line with the

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Speaker 1: notion that people would be stigmatized if they spoke up.

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Speaker 1: And therefore anybody in the military, officers, pilots, they didn't

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Speaker 1: want that permanently in their jacket. Up until that point

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Speaker 1: sometime in the I think it was the nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 1: Up until that point, people were talking openly about it.

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Speaker 1: Then that shut down and they were they were basically

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Speaker 1: the rule came out that said let's label them all kuks,

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Speaker 1: and that will stop. That will stop everything. And then

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Speaker 1: it's taken a long time for that frost thought. So

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Speaker 1: now the emphasis is not prove you're not a kop.

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Speaker 1: It's it's the emphasis is the government to prove that

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Speaker 1: what people are reporting isn't true, right, Yeah, And it's

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Speaker 1: um when you're when you're talking about aerial phenomena, you're

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Speaker 1: talking about a whole bunch of stuff. When I was

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Speaker 1: a kid in nineteen seventy North Austin, Texas, every day

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Speaker 1: I saw a flying disc every day because we lived

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Speaker 1: very close to Berkstrom International or Berkstrom Air Force Base,

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Speaker 1: which was the Sack Command at the time. And so

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Speaker 1: they were launching weather balloons multiple times a day. And

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Speaker 1: once they got very very high, those those balloons that

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Speaker 1: look like an upside down tear drop to us there

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Speaker 1: on the ground, get very big, right, they get very

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Speaker 1: very wide. Sure, and so you see a boy around

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Speaker 1: four or five, six, seven o'clock, depending on what time

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Speaker 1: of the year. You get those long sun rays as

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Speaker 1: the coming up and they reflect off of that balloon

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Speaker 1: material and it looks like a giant, shiny silver disc

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Speaker 1: up there. Right. We had a lot of those. I

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Speaker 1: remember that crystal clear when I was a kid. So

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Speaker 1: you have things such you know, benign as that to

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Speaker 1: these other objects that apparently you know, maneuver very well

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Speaker 1: and are are hard to spot, but well, you know,

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Speaker 1: and that and that's well freeze that moment, because again,

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Speaker 1: there seemed to be a time when this country the

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Speaker 1: military needed to send up a lot more weather balloons.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that they don't do it on occasion.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying, but it's not. I mean the technology

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Speaker 1: has progressed since then, The climatology and meteorology and all

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Speaker 1: that has has progressed to a point where we don't

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Speaker 1: need to send up a balloon. I mean that's pretty

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Speaker 1: that's pretty primal in a way when you think about it, right, right, right,

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Speaker 1: So I guess it would be more along the lines

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Speaker 1: now as far as real test, because I mean using

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Speaker 1: using models and satellites, you can't actually get you know,

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Speaker 1: the real air. You can't write the real air, so

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Speaker 1: you still need uh, you know, air pressure and those

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Speaker 1: types of things that satellite is not going to give you. True,

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Speaker 1: but they also have we have a lot of different planes.

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Speaker 1: They have the a wax, we have a lot of

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Speaker 1: other we have other things that we can also do

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Speaker 1: other than weather balloons, at least if the pentagons to

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Speaker 1: be believed, and they said, and I believe them when

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Speaker 1: they say, we don't really fly balloons over other countries.

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Speaker 1: So that let's just go with the balloon theory for

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Speaker 1: a second, but that all of this is just balloons,

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Speaker 1: so like makes me wonder, what is it then that

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Speaker 1: China doesn't have that we have that a weather balloon

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Speaker 1: or a balloon of some sort, whether it's for weather

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Speaker 1: or not, I don't know. But if whatever a balloon

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Speaker 1: is that they feel like they have to float it

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Speaker 1: over the jet stream over the United States and Canada,

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Speaker 1: what is it that they could that they're gathering with

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Speaker 1: those balloons that they couldn't gather using other data Because

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Speaker 1: our country says, our satellites are so good, balloons are

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Speaker 1: kind of we don't we just wouldn't bother, right, So

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Speaker 1: where are you with that? Well? And so it depends

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Speaker 1: on how you look at it depends on the technology

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Speaker 1: we're talking about. You remember a few years ago we

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Speaker 1: were we were watching North Korea pretty close, and all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, they're burning everything and there's nothing but smoke,

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Speaker 1: right right right, Yeah, they were moving surface to air

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Speaker 1: missiles from one launch area to another. So the best

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Speaker 1: way to do that is to create smoke, because it's

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Speaker 1: really hard for us to see through smoke, and and

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Speaker 1: so that sort of archaic warfare kind of stuff was

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Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, Yeah, And here's the thing is, we're

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Speaker 1: assuming that this balloon was gathering data of some sort,

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Speaker 1: possibly espionaged kind of stuff, right, well, what if it

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Speaker 1: wasn't What if it was doing something else? And that

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Speaker 1: was one of the things that kind of perturbed me

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Speaker 1: a little bit is we can fabricate things pretty quick,

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Speaker 1: and we can control things in a lot of different ways.

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Speaker 1: And to bring a balloon down with a very high

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Speaker 1: dollar missile was just right. I'm just sitting at home.

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Speaker 1: Four hundred thousand dollars missile to knock down a balloon?

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Speaker 1: What are we doing? Who is in charge of this? Right?

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Speaker 1: If I was, if I had the authority and I

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Speaker 1: had the responsibility to for somebody to say, hey, I

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Speaker 1: need you to go get that balloon, that's not how

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it. No, And I want to protect

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Speaker 1: the payload of that balloon and keep it pristine so

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Speaker 1: I can get people that's a lot smarter than me

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Speaker 1: to take a look at it and figure out what

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Speaker 1: it's doing. But instead they shoot a missile at it

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Speaker 1: over the ocean and it's going to drop into salt water.

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Speaker 1: Whatever electronics is on it's done instantly done. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then how are you going to find it? And

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Speaker 1: how are you going to recover it? I don't know

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Speaker 1: how they're they're they're doing with that part of them.

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Speaker 1: I think it's it was all theater, I think at

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Speaker 1: some point, and it became, you know, it obviously became

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Speaker 1: very politicized, like we don't have the guts to to

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Speaker 1: shoot down a balloon, and then after we shot down

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Speaker 1: the balloon, they go, oh, what a stupid waste of

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Speaker 1: money to shoot down a balloon. It's like, pick up

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Speaker 1: your mind, you know what I mean, Like, what what

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Speaker 1: do you want? The government's gonna do whatever it thinks

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Speaker 1: the people think will make them look good. They're not

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Speaker 1: necessarily going to think it through. And you're a guy

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Speaker 1: who knows a little bit about this, because I mean,

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Speaker 1: you served about a decade in the Army, the Navy,

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Speaker 1: and the Air Force. Were those in successive events or

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Speaker 1: were you at the same time in all three of those?

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Speaker 1: So out of high school, Army then I became a

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Speaker 1: cop when I got out of the Army, and I

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Speaker 1: was doing that for a little while, and I thought,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I'm gonna go do. The Navy a

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Speaker 1: buddy of mine called me up, said hey, let's go

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Speaker 1: do the Navy. So we went into the Navy. I

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Speaker 1: got out and went, I'm gonna be a cop again.

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Speaker 1: And then I was there for a couple of years,

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Speaker 1: and the Bosnia thing came up, and I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go do the Air Force and sod Yeah.

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Speaker 1: When were your jobs in each of those stints? So

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Speaker 1: when I was in the Army, I was an infantry parachutist.

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Speaker 1: I was a paratrooper with the eighty second Airborne Division.

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Speaker 1: I was in Alaska and the Middle East and North Africa,

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Speaker 1: and I had I had a really good, really good

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Speaker 1: tour with them. They traveled around right a lot, and

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Speaker 1: then the Navy, and then the Navy. I was an

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Speaker 1: operation specialist, And that's one of the things that makes

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Speaker 1: me more interested in these UAPs, UFOs and that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing, because as an operation specialist, it's one of

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Speaker 1: the very few jobs in the Navy that you don't

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Speaker 1: you're not a technician, you don't fix anything. Most jobs

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Speaker 1: in the Navy to fix something. Operations specialists don't fix anything.

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Speaker 1: We use a whole bunch of electronic means to gather information.

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Speaker 1: We analyze that information and disseminate it to the people

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Speaker 1: that have a need to know for the information. And

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Speaker 1: so that was one of the things. You know, I

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Speaker 1: worked air detection and tracking in one of the one

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Speaker 1: of the modules on mimits Air Detection and Tracking. This

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Speaker 1: was way before the UAP incident. I'm using air quotes

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Speaker 1: here on limits. But the equipment that we use there people,

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Speaker 1: I think people have a very basic and rudimentary idea

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Speaker 1: of how those things work. But let's say the electronic

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Speaker 1: counter measures and electronic counter counter measures and the radars

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Speaker 1: and things that we use our f energy for to

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Speaker 1: do things without having to touch things, those are frequencies,

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Speaker 1: and those frequencies can be adjusted. So for me and

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Speaker 1: for anybody that's work in air detection and tracking, as

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Speaker 1: we're going someplace and doing something, we're looking for objects

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Speaker 1: that are of interest to us, in other words, a

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Speaker 1: hazard and navigation or a direct threat. Right, And when

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Speaker 1: you run into flocks of birds, you adjust your frequency,

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Speaker 1: you tune your radar right so that they'll go away

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Speaker 1: on your radar screen so you don't see them and

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Speaker 1: you don't get distracted by them. Well, the same thing

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Speaker 1: would happen with a non rigid inflatable balloon type object.

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Speaker 1: You could pick that up if the payload was big enough,

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Speaker 1: like this particular payload on this Chinese balloon was apparently

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Speaker 1: a couple of school bus sizes. I mean that that's

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Speaker 1: a lot of equipment. I can't imagine how big this

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Speaker 1: thing was, but apparently it was pretty large. And you know,

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Speaker 1: something like that, you wouldn't necessarily tune it out. You

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Speaker 1: would automatically see that. Some of these others that they've

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Speaker 1: been talking about, the smaller ones, you would probably if

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Speaker 1: you couldn't get a signature off of that flying object,

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Speaker 1: whatever it is. In other words, you're you're looking for it,

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Speaker 1: and is it in a commercial air corridor? Is it

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Speaker 1: move at a certain speed at a certain altitude? Is

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Speaker 1: it squawking some sort of radar also or any other

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Speaker 1: RF energy for you know, transmitting whatever it might be.

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Speaker 1: You can identify that as a commercial aircraft or military aircraft.

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Speaker 1: But if something's moving very slow and it doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: to be doing anything, a lot of times you won't

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Speaker 1: even assign a tracking number to it, just because you

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Speaker 1: know it could be it could be some sort of

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Speaker 1: weather anomaly, squall, It could be you know, so when

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Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to be a threat to you, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you just don't pay that much attention to it. So

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Speaker 1: it's interesting after this, after these new laws came in

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Speaker 1: and they basically tapped on everybody's, you know, a military's

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Speaker 1: foreheads and said, hey, boys, start paying attention to this stuff.

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Speaker 1: Start logging this stuff. So everybody's tuning in the radars different.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh man, these things from popping up everywhere. Right,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, well, and then so the Air Force just

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Speaker 1: a round it out. I mean, which one was your

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Speaker 1: favorite branch that you served in? So I was indoctrinated

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Speaker 1: in the United States Army and that's the way I feel.

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Speaker 1: That's that's who tattooed on your soul. Yeah, it still

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Speaker 1: is right, exactly right. Yeah, I was a I was

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Speaker 1: actually a combat arms training and maintenance instructor for the

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Speaker 1: Air Force, So I was I was a rainmaster. I

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Speaker 1: did all the small arms stuff up to a Mark

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Speaker 1: nineteen and like eighty one millimeter mortars and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

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Speaker 1: one am Eastern and go to Coast to Coast am

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Speaker 1: dot com for more