1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, 2 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for 3 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: tuning in. This is part two two of our continuing 4 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: conversation with none other than Aaron Tracy, the award winning writer, 5 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: the founder of Parallax, a producer who's done pretty much everything, 6 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: including creating the new hit podcast The Secret World of 7 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: Roald Dahl. That is our super producer, Max the gob 8 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: Stopper Williams. Max, how are we doing. 9 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 2: Low, I'm doing well. I am excited for the second 10 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: half of this interview. It is absolutely amazing. It is 11 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 2: great to have Aaron on here with his excellent knowledge 12 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: and takes, and so yeah, excited for the second part. 13 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: And our Pale Nol is on an adventure currently, but 14 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: we'll be returning very soon. So in the meantime, if 15 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: you haven't checked out part one of this interview, do 16 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: that first. We'll wait, We'll still be right here on 17 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: your app or on your phone or whatever, and then 18 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: get back to us and join us. 19 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 3: We're going to dive right in. 20 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: We also know and is the story of the Irregulars 21 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: is something you explore pretty early on in the podcast. 22 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: We also know that we can prove he was in 23 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: the regulars. But as you have pointed out, in the 24 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: course of your extensive research, you found that Dall was 25 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: first and foremost a committed, immaculate storyteller who maybe maybe 26 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: shures things up a little bit. What he's talking about 27 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: is past. Could you tell us, I'm trying to think 28 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: of a diplomatic way to say this, so just to 29 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: put it bluntly, because rule Dall is not with us 30 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: on the show today, how much of how much of 31 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: what he said about his past escapades was true? At 32 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: how much of it was more like a good story. 33 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's a great question and impossible to answer, 34 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 4: of course, but we know a ton of it is true. 35 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 4: We know sort of the foundation is all true. I 36 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 4: think when you get past the foundation into the specific details, 37 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 4: you're right that some of it might have just been 38 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 4: Doll's story telling. If you look at his first couple 39 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 4: memoirs about his childhood, they're written very much in the 40 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 4: style of his children's books, and so there's almost like 41 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 4: a kind of a wink wink, I think that you 42 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 4: know these are so so whimsical, so fantastical. It's like, yes, 43 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 4: these are memoirs, these are autobiographies, but come on, it's 44 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 4: not like every detail is true. So there's a bunch 45 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 4: of examples of him exaggerating. Like in his memoir he 46 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 4: talks about his crash when he's flying for the RAF 47 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 4: and he talks about being alone and the circuitry malfunctioning 48 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 4: and crashing in the desert. In truth, what we know 49 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 4: is that there was another pilot with him, and it 50 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 4: wasn't just that the circuitry and the plane malfunctioned. It 51 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 4: was that Doll had run out of fuel. But he 52 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 4: he likes the story, you know, And we see that 53 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 4: sort of throughout his life that he's always sort of 54 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 4: he'll never pass up the opportunity for a really good 55 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 4: story when he can. 56 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: Okay, So not necessarily lying or making things up entirely 57 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: out of whole cloth, but kind of painting himself perhaps 58 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: says a bit more of a heroic figure. 59 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, okay, here's another example. As a spy, Dall 60 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 4: was getting close to the Roosevelts. Eleanor was a huge 61 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 4: fan of that story that I mentioned that Doll wrote 62 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 4: The Gremlins and she used to read it to her grandkids. 63 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 4: And she invited him over to the White House. And 64 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 4: because everyone of Doll you know, as I mentioned, he 65 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 4: was charming and handsome and dashing and a great storyteller, 66 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 4: and he charmed the Roosevelts, and they invited him up 67 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 4: to Hyde Park their weekend retreat, and he went up 68 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 4: several different times. So we know that that's all true. 69 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 4: What we do I don't know for sure is everything 70 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 4: that Dall put in his memoir and talked about on interviews, 71 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 4: which is that FDR would ask him to mix Martini's 72 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 4: and FDR took him for a joy ride and his 73 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 4: specially made car, and that they just became like incredibly 74 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 4: close friends. Hard to know, right, but Dall definitely did 75 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 4: spend time with the Roosevelts, and definitely did write a 76 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 4: twelve page report after the first weekend that he spent 77 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 4: with them over the July fourth weekend in nineteen forty 78 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 4: and sent back to Churchill about, you know, everything Churchill 79 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 4: was dying to know about FDR, namely, does FDR want 80 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 4: to help us, does he want to enter the war? 81 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 4: What's his current thinking on the situation. So all of 82 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 4: that is absolutely true. 83 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: Okay, So then we have we so we know at 84 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: the core that that kind of initiative is successful, which 85 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: is great to hear. So the important parts, at least 86 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: in that instance are true. But I've got to say it, 87 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: it reminds me of something that I've seen happen in 88 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: Los Angeles where you know, somebody is at a restaurant 89 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: and they cite a celebrity in this, you know, across 90 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: the dining room, and then later they go to their 91 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: friends and they say, oh, Robert de Niro, Yeah, I know, 92 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: we have dinner together sometimes. 93 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 5: That's good. 94 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: So maybe that maybe there's a little bit of that 95 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: kind of showmanship. 96 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, he's also twenty six years old, right, So who 97 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 4: doesn't boast and exaggerate a little bit when they're twenty six, 98 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 4: especially when you're in these kinds of when you're running 99 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,239 Speaker 4: in these kinds of circles. There's a there's another story 100 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 4: where he he says that he went back to his 101 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 4: superiors after dating Claire Booflouos for a little while and 102 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 4: said he couldn't do it anymore, like she was just 103 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 4: too voracious, he couldn't take her anymore. And he makes 104 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 4: up this whole story about how the ambassador says to him. 105 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 5: You got to go back, you got to do it. 106 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 4: Remember that Charles Latton movie about Henry the Eighth where 107 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 4: Charles Ltton sort of turns the camera and says, the 108 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 4: things I've done for England, you know, you got to 109 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 4: suck it up. You've got to do that yourself. I 110 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 4: have no idea if that's Sue or not. It feels 111 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 4: a little bit like Dolls just boasting about, you know, 112 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 4: sort of Claire's appetite for him. He would later go 113 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 4: on to put the things I've done for England line 114 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 4: into Sean Connery's mouth and James Bond. So you know, 115 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 4: these guys they like exaggerating, they like a good story. 116 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think it's a it's necessarily a 117 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 4: coincidence that the irregulars that I mentioned that Dolls hanging 118 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 4: out with are all creators. They're all creatives. They're Ian Fleming, 119 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 4: the writer of James Bond, David Ogilvy, who would go 120 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 4: on to write, you know, to create a whole cloth 121 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 4: like original, the most influential advertising campaigns, Noel Coward, the playwright. 122 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 4: These are all creative writers who are somehow caught up 123 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 4: in the spy game. 124 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: And I love the I also love the idea of 125 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: of Rolled as a reluctant lithario, you know what I mean, 126 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: like like Casanova with regrets. He's just so beloved, is 127 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: the thing. So uh yeah, this takes us to This 128 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: takes us to another aspect of his wartime years that 129 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: we have to return to because it's something that I 130 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: know obviously profoundly disturbs us, and it disturbs everyone in 131 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: the audience as well, we know, or I hope, which 132 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: is a strange contradiction in his ideology and his perspective. 133 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: One of the biggest questions I had is, Okay, this 134 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: guy fought for the Allies in World War Two again 135 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: against the Axis Powers, against the Nazis. He has that 136 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: infamous a series of infamous interviews where later, despite putting 137 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: his life on the line for the Allied Powers and 138 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: to combat the horrors of the Axis Powers, he does 139 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: later just because there's no way around it. He's inarguably 140 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: unapologetically anti Semitic, and he doubles down on it like 141 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: throughout his later life. What is there some context that 142 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: could explain this apparent contradiction. How did he go from 143 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: fighting Nazis to agree with their horrific ideology. 144 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think you're right that they're connected. 145 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 4: He saw himself as well as everyone he was fighting 146 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 4: with the in the nineteen forties as sort of saving 147 00:09:55,160 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 4: the Jews of Europe. In later years, he he became 148 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 4: incredibly enraged at what Israel was doing, specifically what Israel 149 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 4: was doing in Lebanon. And so the most famous example 150 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 4: of Dolls bigotry coming out is this interview he gave 151 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 4: to the New Statesman in nineteen eighty three. And the 152 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 4: reason he gave that interview is because he had just 153 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 4: written a book review about the Lebanon War. And in 154 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 4: that book review he was really critical of Israel. But 155 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 4: what he did was this sort of classic anti Semitic trope. 156 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 4: He instead of criticizing the leadership of the Israeli government 157 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 4: and the military, he criticized all Jews everywhere. So he 158 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 4: said in this interview, there is a trait in the 159 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 4: Jewish character that does provoke animosity. Even a stinker like 160 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 4: Hitler didn't just pick on them for no reason. He 161 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 4: did later say in an interview, I've become antisemitic. He 162 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 4: really he could not separate his hatred for what the 163 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 4: Israeli government was doing to the Lebanese with his his 164 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 4: feelings for Jews everywhere. 165 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: This is such a tremendously important point. You know, history 166 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: is always closer than it looks in the rear view mirror, 167 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: we like to say. And I think you're you're bringing 168 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: to light something important and powerful that the government of 169 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 1: a place is, more often than not, not the representative, 170 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: not the full picture of the people of the place. 171 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: You know, most most people around the planet, they want 172 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: to know that they're going to eat something later that day. 173 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: They want to have a safe place to sleep, they 174 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: want their kids to have a better life, and they 175 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: want to be successful. And I think it's something that, 176 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: especially in these devisive times, we all could do well 177 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: to remember. 178 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 5: You know. 179 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 3: It's it's it's. 180 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: A shame that it's a shame that doll fell so 181 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: so hard. But this I agree with you that, at 182 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: least in my limited experience, not being a scholar in 183 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: this regard, in my limited experience, I didn't clock stuff 184 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: like that. I'm prob I was probably a in his work. 185 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: When I'm reading it, I didn't like you, I didn't 186 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 1: clock anti semitism. But also I was kind of a 187 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: dirt bag kid. So all the times I saw somebody 188 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: called fat or ugly, I thought it was hilarious. You know, 189 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: so maybe not the best judge. 190 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I. 191 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: Guess there's something else we want to get to a 192 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: bit of a plot twist in our conversation here now, folks, 193 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: right now, you can check out the secret world of 194 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: Role Doll, available wherever you find your favorite shows. But 195 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: we don't want to end our conversation there. We have 196 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: been talking a lot about one writer, erin, but if 197 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: I could beg a little bit more of your time, 198 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: I'd like to ask you about another writer, a guy 199 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: named a guy named Aaron Tracy. 200 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 3: You is that okay? 201 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 5: Is that just imagine to talk about my writing? Yeah? 202 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 3: Of course, awesome, Okay, thank you so much. 203 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 5: So. 204 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: One of the questions that I know a lot of 205 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: current writers or budding writers in the audience tonight are 206 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: going to have is how did you become a writer? 207 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: What drew and what draws you to the written word. 208 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 4: So I've always been, I think, like you, a giant 209 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 4: movie buff and TV buff too, and so I wanted 210 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 4: to do that. It's not so much that I just 211 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 4: want to that, I just wanted to write. It's that 212 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 4: I wanted to be involved in movies and TV as 213 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 4: a kid, and so at first I thought I could 214 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 4: be an actor, and then, you know, quickly realized I 215 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 4: did not have the talent for that or the the 216 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 4: interest in that, and so the next best thing was 217 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 4: being the storyteller. So, just like just like Doll, just 218 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 4: like millions of other people, I moved to Los Angeles 219 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 4: after school and just sort of tried to make it. 220 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 4: And you know, there's no one way to do it, unfortunately, 221 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 4: It's it's not like a apprenticeship like in like in 222 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 4: the old days, or or even in a professional. 223 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 3: Like a trade. 224 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, there's no clear path, and so everybody just 225 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 4: finds their own way. And for me, I just wrote 226 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 4: a bunch of scripts until I had a couple that 227 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 4: I was, you know, willing to to show people at least, 228 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 4: and then just got my first job and kind of 229 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 4: moved up from there. 230 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: That's awesome and it's going to be inspiring for a 231 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: lot of our fellow ridiculous historians to hear about this journey. 232 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: Next question on this subject, okay man, what is to 233 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: the degree that you're comfortable sharing on air, what is 234 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: the strangest project you ever found yourself in. Have you 235 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: ever had one of those moments where you looked around 236 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: and thought, Holy smokes, how did I get here? 237 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 5: Oh? My god? So many. I mean, anybody, anybody that. 238 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 4: Spent enough time writing TV and movies is going to 239 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 4: have just bananas stories. I mean, the first one that 240 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 4: comes to me is a writing partner and I my 241 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 4: friend Andrew. We were working with Lionsgate on a project 242 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 4: and then they teamed up with a toy company and 243 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 4: they brought us the board game Risk to try to 244 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 4: adapt into TV, which was I mean incredible, right, Like, 245 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 4: it's got so much name recognition, it's been around forever, 246 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 4: people really know it. But when you think about it 247 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 4: for a few seconds, you then remember that there's a 248 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 4: pretty big obstacle, which is that there are no characters 249 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 4: in Risk, so you have to make up everything. I mean, 250 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 4: it's completely nuts. It's like the new you know, it's 251 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 4: it's not so much new anymore, but for for a while, 252 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 4: and still to a large degree, ip is everything. Can 253 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 4: you get a cereal box? Can you get a board game? 254 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 4: Can you get a comic book? Like what can we do? 255 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 4: That's already in the public consciousness, what can we take 256 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 4: and turn into a show and so so risk was 257 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 4: a truly crazy one for me. We spent a lot 258 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 4: of time on that. I'll say another could just kind 259 00:16:54,920 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 4: of totally surreal moment in my career was I was 260 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 4: I wrote a pilot for the USA Network and we 261 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 4: ended up making it, which was great. We cast an 262 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 4: amazing writer who was also an actor to play one 263 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 4: of the essential roles in the pilot, and that was 264 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 4: Tom McCarthy. And Tom McCarthy had just come off winning 265 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 4: the Oscar for Best Screenplay and so here I am 266 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 4: writing for this guy. I'm like, you know, I'm so 267 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 4: insecure about my writing. All writers are insecure about their writing, right, 268 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 4: but like, this is my first big pilot to get made, 269 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 4: and here I am trying to write dialogue for the 270 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 4: reigning Oscar winner for Best Screenplay. 271 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 5: I was so humiliated. 272 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 4: I was just so insecure that that was a very 273 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 4: tough Hollywood experience for me. 274 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 5: But you know, he was. 275 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 4: He couldn't have been sweeter. And you know, he didn't 276 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 4: constantly tell me what an idiot or what a bad 277 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 4: writer I was. So I would check that up up 278 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 4: as a win. 279 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: Yes, I would agree I think you're being a little 280 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: hard on yourself, my friend. I also, my spidy sense 281 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: is telling me that you probably have war stories for 282 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: days in the trenches of writing so much for TV 283 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: and film and thank you for thank you for sharing those. 284 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 1: I'm between us. I am convinced that there are probably 285 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: a couple of stories that are probably better not for 286 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: the air. 287 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 4: Maybe we do it in the dark place, man. 288 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's tough out there. 289 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: We can hang out, we can hang out in the 290 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: future and talk about some of this stuff. But I 291 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: love I love picking the brains of writers, of people 292 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: who have successfully successfully. 293 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 3: Journeyed in this field. 294 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: Right, And with that, one of the questions we always 295 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,239 Speaker 1: like to ask when when we get together in these 296 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: kind of circles, is uh, who are some of your 297 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 1: favorite writers today? What are you reading? What are you 298 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: what are you digging? 299 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 3: Are you? 300 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: Are you at the point now after the Secret World 301 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: of Role Doll where you're saying I need a break 302 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: from this one author. 303 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 4: Yes, I'm definitely putting all of my roll Doll books 304 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 4: in the closet. I've got a stack of them in 305 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 4: front of me. But yeah, as soon as the show's 306 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 4: over there, they're all going away for a while. Yeah, 307 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 4: I mean I have so many favorite writers I've been reading. 308 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 4: In terms of fiction, I've been reading a lot of 309 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 4: mysteries lately. Patricia high Smith. I I recently discovered who's 310 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 4: just as extraordinary as everybody says. Uh, They're they're great 311 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 4: page turners and and and they make. 312 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 5: You think uh. 313 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 4: In in film and TV, I'm a giant Aaron Sorkin fan. 314 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 4: I love William Goldman, I love Nora Ephron. So many screenwriters, 315 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 4: but I love Marty Supreme. I love the screenplay there. 316 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 4: Noah Bombach is one of my all time favorite writers, 317 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 4: and he's got a new movie this year. 318 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 5: Richard G. Linkletter too, He's got two new movies. 319 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, basically too many to name. 320 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a that's a great spot to be 321 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: rights as a as a reader, as a as an 322 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: audience member. That's that's the kind of stuff we love. 323 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: I I got I recently because I was on some 324 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: long plane flights. I recently got back into the phenomenal 325 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: short story writer Edgar Carrott. Pretty pretty hard. 326 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 5: To me. 327 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: He's he's like the next or the new Kurt Vonnegut. 328 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: So it's yeah, it's cool, snappy, just on the edge 329 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: of approachable surreal. I guess we could call it. I 330 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: don't know if that's an aesthetic. We're just making up 331 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: on the air, Aaron. One other thing that stood out 332 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: that I saw you mentioned often in conversation was that 333 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: just as Roald Dahl had heroes, you have heroes of 334 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: your own, one of whom is the legendary Rob Reiner. 335 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: We were We were immensely fortunate on one of our 336 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: sister shows, Stuff they don't want you to know, to 337 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: interview mister Reiner for a podcast he did on the 338 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: controversy and conspiracy surrounding the jfk assassination, and for my money, 339 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: it comes the closest to answering some of those unanswered questions. 340 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: Just because I think it would be fun for Rob 341 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: to have heard us fanboy a little and embarrass him. 342 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: Could you could you tell us about why this, why 343 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: this guy in particular is such a hero of yours. 344 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, we could start the podcast over. 345 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 4: I could go another hour just talking about Rob. I 346 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 4: absolutely loved him. He was such a great mentor figure 347 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 4: for me. He produced a pilot that I wrote, and 348 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 4: so I got to work in his office at Castle Rock. 349 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 4: They put me in the in the room next door 350 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 4: to his office, and so I got to constantly hear 351 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 4: him on the phone in the next room and got 352 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 4: no work done, of course, But he was he was 353 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 4: just so caring. He would take me and my co 354 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 4: writer Andrew out to lunch all the time and just 355 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 4: regale us with stories because he had you know, he 356 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 4: had been in the business for decades and decades and 357 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 4: decades and knew everybody, and everybody loved him. He was 358 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 4: also besides being I think one of the great directors 359 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 4: of all time, he was a fantastic producer. He and 360 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 4: his company produced so many movies that that people probably 361 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 4: don't even think of in relation to him, like the 362 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 4: Shawshank Redemption comes to mind. But you know, when I 363 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 4: talk about when I talk about Doll's time in Hollywood 364 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 4: in the podcast, I talk a little bit about the 365 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 4: various runs by great directors because Dahl worked with Hitchcock, 366 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 4: not you know, during Hitchcock's great run, and a lot 367 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 4: of people think that that was maybe the greatest run 368 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 4: by a director of all time, Hitchcock leading up to Psycho. 369 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 5: But I think you could. 370 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 4: Argue that Rob Reiner in the late eighties to early 371 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 4: nineties actually had the greatest run of movies ever. I mean, 372 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 4: in this very brief period of time, in less than 373 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 4: a decade he made when Harry met Sally and a 374 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 4: few good men and the American President and stand by me, 375 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 4: the Princess Bride. It just the body of work is extraordinary, 376 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 4: and just how giving he was and how willing he 377 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 4: was to share his wisdom and encourage young writers. I 378 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 4: had him and the script that I wrote that he produced, 379 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 4: and it's one of my prized possessions, one of my 380 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 4: other prize possessions. And this says a lot about how 381 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 4: much doll or excuse me, how much Rhiner really appreciated writers. 382 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 4: In the basement of Castle Rock, where I used to 383 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 4: sneak down after after hours, he had a room that 384 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 4: was aligned with bookshelves from Florida ceiling, and on those 385 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 4: bookshelves he had every draft of every one of the 386 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 4: scripts he ever developed. And so there's like two shelves 387 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 4: that are just drafts of whin Harrimet Sally, for instance, 388 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 4: which is a movie I love all the way back 389 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 4: from what it was just called Words with Love that 390 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 4: was the original title, and I took that and I 391 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 4: went upstairs and I photo copied it, and I have 392 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 4: that in my drawer now too. I never told him 393 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 4: I did that, but it was Yeah, it was just 394 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 4: it was so nice to go down there and be 395 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 4: surrounded by the work of writers that Rob Shepherd did. 396 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 5: Wow, this is. 397 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: A story that I was totally unaware of. And I 398 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: think it speaks to this practice of lineage because it 399 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: sounds like you, in that process, you were encountering something 400 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: very like an apprenticeship to a journeyman position. And I 401 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: think we could also compare Rob Reiner to Rule Dall 402 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: in that in that he also Dall also inspired countless writers, 403 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: countless countless folks who would go on to maybe write 404 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: their own young adult novels, or people who were so 405 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: just had their minds so rocked by the worlds that 406 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: Dahl created that they went out and creatively fed off 407 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: of that energy, off of that vibe with that, and 408 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: thank you for being so generous with your time here 409 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: With that, what do we hope our listeners take away 410 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: from the Secret world of Rule Doll, Like, we haven't 411 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: heard all the episodes yet, and we're not gonna ask 412 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: you to spoil them. But when the curtains close and 413 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: the credits roll on the podcast and we're walking away 414 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: after we've heard the very last episode, the very last word, 415 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: what do we hope the audience has learned? 416 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 4: I mean, in the largest sense, I hope people just 417 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 4: get a sense for what an incredibly interesting, noisy life 418 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 4: this guy lived and how much he was searching for 419 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 4: his identity, And so I hope people will. You know, 420 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 4: they'll of course be somewhat turned off by the bigotry, 421 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 4: but I think that people will also have a lot 422 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 4: of sympathy for him. You know, what we didn't get 423 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 4: into today is all the tragedies that Doll experience, especially 424 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 4: with his family as an adult, which directly led to 425 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 4: him writing the children's books. So I hope people will 426 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 4: have some sympathy for him as well. But you brought 427 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 4: up something else as you were talking about Rob Reiner 428 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 4: that I hope people take away from this, which is 429 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 4: both Rob Reiner and Roald Dahl had great mentors. Rob 430 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 4: talks about Norman Lear, the creator and sho runner of 431 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 4: All in the Family, being his great mentor, giving him 432 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 4: his job on All in the Family, and then financially 433 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 4: supporting him when he made the Princess bride just like 434 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 4: absolutely essential to his life. And Roal Dall also had 435 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 4: a couple really important mentors. We talked about William Stevenson, 436 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 4: but Roaldall also had this guy named Charles Marsh, who 437 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 4: was an incredibly wealthy newspaper magnet who was instrumental in 438 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 4: Dall becoming a writer. After the war, when Dahl moved 439 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 4: back to England and moved into his mother's basement and 440 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 4: it looked like maybe that was going to be it 441 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 4: for Dall and nothing whatever, uh you know, come of him, 442 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 4: Charles Marsh said, no way. Charles Marsh had met him 443 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 4: in DC when he was a spy and brought Dall 444 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 4: back to New York, paid for Doll to be in 445 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 4: an apartment, and introduced Doll to Harold Ross, who was 446 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 4: the founding editor of The New Yorker, and really started 447 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 4: Doll's writing career in that way. And I bring these 448 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 4: up because you know, I teach. I'm on creative writing 449 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 4: faculty at Yale, and so this idea of mentorship is 450 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 4: super important to me. And I think right now this 451 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 4: idea of mentorship is more important than ever because we're 452 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 4: finally we're living in a period which you know, because 453 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 4: of AI, because of the chatbots, the barriers to becoming 454 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 4: a writer are fewer and fewer, Like we can actually 455 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 4: now just ask a chatbot to write a script for us, 456 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 4: and it won't be good right now, but at least 457 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 4: it will look like a script, and at least it 458 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 4: will have a lot of the elements of a script. 459 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 4: And so when you break down the barriers to what 460 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 4: it means to become a writer, mentorship becomes so much 461 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 4: more important. It becomes essential to help writers UH figure 462 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 4: out what their point of view is, to figure out 463 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 4: how to translate you know, their their their sensibilities into 464 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 4: UH into their words on the page. Because AI writing 465 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 4: can just be so flat and uninteresting, and so we 466 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 4: need mentors UH more than we ever have, I would argue, 467 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 4: And so I think, Doll and Ryner, are you know, 468 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 4: really good reminders about how important mentors are and that 469 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 4: you know, my hope, of course, is that people really 470 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 4: seek them out, and that people who are further along 471 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 4: in their career UH are more willing to to sort 472 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 4: of mentor younger writers. 473 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: Just what what a phenomenal way to bring everything together. 474 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: At the end of the conversation, uh this. Uh. I 475 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: paused for a second and hopefully Max cut out that 476 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: slight silence because I was just hypnotized, you know, when 477 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: you're making these points, and then I forgot for a 478 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: second that we are on Aaron supposed to be. But 479 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: this leads us all to our very last question. Where 480 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: can people learn more about your work outside of the 481 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: secret world of Rule Doll? And if your game for it, 482 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: could you give us a little teaser about an upcoming 483 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: audio novel called The Honeymoon Period. No. 484 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm writing a novel for McMillan. It's actually 485 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 4: going to be my first novel, so I'm excited about that. 486 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 4: And yeah, it'll never be available in print. It is 487 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 4: for audio only, so I'm writing it as a novel, 488 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 4: but we're going to have a full cast and record 489 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 4: it and so you'll be able to listen to that 490 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 4: wherever you. 491 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 5: Get audio books. And that's very nice. 492 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 4: If any he wants to know about my other work, 493 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 4: they can go to my website, which is my company 494 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 4: is called Parallax, and so it simply listened to parallax 495 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 4: dot com and people can see all of the audio 496 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 4: dramas that I've written with lots of different actors over 497 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 4: the years, for Audible and for iHeart and my novel 498 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 4: will Be will be up there too. 499 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: And there you have it, folks, the Secret World of 500 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: Rule Doll with Aaron Tracy. This is available now wherever 501 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: you find your favorite shows. We would love for you 502 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: to check it out. We are on the edge of 503 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,479 Speaker 1: our seats actually because we came in. I'll confess we 504 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: came in like some other folks, doubtlessly who thought we 505 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: knew a lot about Rule Doll. It's spoiler folks. You're 506 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: going to be astonished by how much you don't know 507 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: just yet, so tune in let us know your thoughts ed. Aaron, 508 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: thank you so much much for joining us. 509 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 4: Thank you so much. This has been truly a pleasure. 510 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 4: That's been great. 511 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: And there you have it, folks, friends, neighbors, countrymen. 512 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 3: Max. 513 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: There's so much we didn't get to, and there is 514 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: so much that I think you and I and the 515 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: audience alike learned just from talking to Erin. 516 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, there was so much to get to. 517 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 2: I mean, it would be you know, amazing if there 518 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 2: was another podcast for people to you know, go listen to, 519 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: or a guy like Aaron Tracy would break down these 520 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 2: details and much greater and you know, robust ideas. What 521 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 2: do you think about that? Wouldn't that be something you'd 522 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 2: want to listen to? 523 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing. That's an amazing point, Max. It would 524 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: almost be like a secret world all its own, a 525 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: secret world of Role Doll. We should text Aaron with that, 526 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: we should pitch that name to him. 527 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 6: I guess we'll just be wanting until until somebody doesn't. 528 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: Right it is available now. This is the kind of 529 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: show where you don't have to pay for the whole seat, 530 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: because you're only going to need the edge. 531 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 3: We're excited to. 532 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: Hear about your favorite Role Dull books. Please hit us 533 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: up on our Facebook group Ridiculous Historians, et cetera, et cetera. 534 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: In the meantime, big big thanks to our super producer, 535 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: mister Max Williams, and tune in soon. The very next 536 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: week after this, we are going to bust some myths 537 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: about ancient history and the shape of the planet. 538 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 6: Turns out this Earth is actually just flat. 539 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 540 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 6: The conspiracy is that it's round. 541 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 3: No, no, no, that we're. 542 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: Talking about especial shout out to my actual facts quote 543 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 2: Lauren Volbelbaum, brother Alex Williams for this slapping baby you 544 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 2: are listening to right now. 545 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: And big big thanks to doctor Rachel Big Spinach, Lance 546 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: aj Bahama is Jacobs. 547 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 6: And oh do we have to thank him? 548 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 2: The omnipresent villain of our podcast, mister Jonathan doesn't want 549 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 2: to ride the glass elevator, Strickland. 550 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: He's our very own bond villain and actually just off Mike. 551 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 3: He's the nicest guy. 552 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 5: I know. 553 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: We roast him at the end, but sometimes I feel 554 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: a little bad and I sent him a text to 555 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: check it. 556 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 2: Last time I saw him, we sat in the office 557 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 2: and we talked about video games. 558 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 6: For an hour straight. 559 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: Yes, well, every conversation with him is about an hour 560 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: street and between the. 561 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 6: Two of us we have about twenty four inches of hair. 562 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: So there's a reason that is hilarious. Folks will tell you. 563 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: We'll tell you when the Quizzer appears on the show 564 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 1: again in the near future. In the meantime, thanks so 565 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. As Noel Brown, my brother in 566 00:34:53,840 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: podcast combat, always says, we'll see you next time, Folks. 567 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 568 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,