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Speaker 4: Hey Daniel, do particle physicists ever make mistakes?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all the time. One time I ordered licorice ice cream,

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Speaker 1: big mistake.

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Speaker 4: I once had garlic ice cream. That was probably a

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Speaker 4: bigger mistake. Do you know't they make garlic ice cream?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? They have pretty experimental flavors, sometimes with ice creams.

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Speaker 4: What I mean is, have physicists ever written papers that,

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Speaker 4: like scientific papers, that turn out to be wrong?

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Speaker 1: You know, it does happen. The most famous example comes

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Speaker 1: from maybe the Opera experiment, which in twenty eleven claimed

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Speaker 1: to have measured neutrinos going faster than the speed of light.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Turns out they just had a cable loose, and when

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Speaker 1: they jiggled it, all the numbers got back into sink

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Speaker 1: and everything was traveling happily less than the speed of light.

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Speaker 4: Oh man, particles can't travel faster than light.

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Speaker 1: Probably not. But you know, if particles could travel faster

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Speaker 1: than the speed of light, physicists are already set up

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Speaker 1: with an awesome name for them.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they have a good name for this far

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Speaker 4: faster than light particle? Is it called the garlic kino.

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Speaker 1: Or the liquor ons.

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Speaker 4: Linker on? That's like a terrible pun, like a not

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Speaker 4: safer work pun. Hi am Porge and I'm Daniel, and

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Speaker 4: welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe,

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Speaker 4: a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we take the universe and explain everything in

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Speaker 1: it to you, including things which might not be possible.

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Speaker 4: That's right, things with that are tasteful and nice, and

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Speaker 4: things that are maybe a little.

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Speaker 1: Tacky, things which stretch the boundaries of understanding, things which

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Speaker 1: might even break the laws of physics themselves.

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Speaker 4: Today on the program, we're going to talk about tachions.

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Speaker 4: Are they real? What are they? Are they really? Taki?

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Speaker 1: What are they on?

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Speaker 4: Who taught them their sense of style?

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Speaker 1: Exactly? Tachions are a fascinating concept because, first of all,

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Speaker 1: theoret from a theoretical physics point of view, they're interesting.

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Speaker 1: Like the idea for a tachyon is a particle that

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Speaker 1: travels faster than the speed of light, and so that

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Speaker 1: already is like immediately arresting, like is it possible? How

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Speaker 1: would that work? What would it mean? Right? But they

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Speaker 1: also exist in science fiction.

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Speaker 4: So this is a particle that it exists in the

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Speaker 4: minds of physicists, but we don't know if it exists

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Speaker 4: in the real world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And it's the really interesting history sort of

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Speaker 1: the idea. There was a short story written by somebody

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Speaker 1: in which they had particles going faster than the speed

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Speaker 1: of light. So it started in science fiction, and then

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Speaker 1: there was a physicist that read that story and thought, hmm,

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Speaker 1: could you do that? Would that be possible? And sat

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Speaker 1: down sort of worked out the mathematics of it, and

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Speaker 1: then gave it a name, called it a tachyon. And

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Speaker 1: then more science fiction writers heard about that and thought, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: this must be a real thing now, And now it's

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Speaker 1: like everywhere in science fiction, and you heard tachions everywhere.

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Speaker 4: It's like a cosmic bad case of telephone.

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Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, just sort of an idea of bouncing around.

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Speaker 1: And you know there must be something really to it.

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Speaker 1: If it's really resonating in the minds of physicists and

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Speaker 1: science fiction authors, you know, it's something tantalizing, something exciting,

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Speaker 1: something people want to be true, Right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because it would expand our kind of what's possible

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Speaker 4: in the universe.

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Speaker 1: Right yeah. Or it would expand the plot options available

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Speaker 1: to science fiction authors.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: If you can send particles fast in the speed of

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Speaker 1: light and backwards in time and all sorts of stuff,

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Speaker 1: then there's lots of things you can do with your plots.

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Speaker 4: That's right. If you follow the laws of physics, all

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Speaker 4: science fiction would be pretty boring.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's right. You know everything in the first scene

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Speaker 1: you can predict the whole story, right. Actually, I feel

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Speaker 1: like a lot of science fiction is like that. You

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Speaker 1: read one chapter, you know the whole story.

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Speaker 4: You know the whole story. Yeah, did this writer come

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Speaker 4: up with a name for the takion or was it

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Speaker 4: the physicists who read the story?

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Speaker 1: No, it was the physicist. So the story was a

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Speaker 1: written by a guy named Blish and the story is

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Speaker 1: called beep involves like messages from aliens that come in.

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Speaker 1: At the end of every message, there's a beep and

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Speaker 1: it turns out of the beep and codes like all

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Speaker 1: future messages or whatever. Oops, I just spoiled the story

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Speaker 1: for everybody anyway, because parts of the message travel fast

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Speaker 1: than the speed of light. And so then the physicists

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Speaker 1: read the story and came up with it in a

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven paper. This physicist named Gerald Feinberg, and

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Speaker 1: so he coined the name takeion as far as I

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Speaker 1: unders did. But you know now it's everywhere. It's in

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Speaker 1: nim pop culture, everywhere you turn.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he should have named after the author the bleishy on.

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Speaker 1: I think catch on quite as much, or the beepies.

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Speaker 4: No, but you know, I read about tacons because they're

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Speaker 4: part of the integral part of the plot of one

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Speaker 4: of my favorite coming books and in fact, one of

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Speaker 4: the most fast comic books of all time.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, what is Jorge's favorite comic book? I'm dying

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Speaker 1: to know.

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Speaker 4: It's one of my favorites, is it? Man?

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Speaker 1: It's you can throw banana peels from the tips of

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Speaker 1: his fingers and make anybody slip.

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Speaker 4: It's a liquorice lady, liquors lady.

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Speaker 1: Wow, there's so many not safe for work jokes that

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Speaker 1: can make about the liquorse lady.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they'll need to be beeped out.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. So tell me what is your favorite comic book?

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Speaker 4: One of my favorite comic books, and that is one

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Speaker 4: of the most famous comic books of all time is Watchmen?

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Speaker 4: Have have you seen the comic book or the graphic

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Speaker 4: novel or the movie.

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Speaker 1: I have read the graphic novel, and I have seen

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Speaker 1: all eleven hours of the movie.

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Speaker 4: All different versions except all the slow motion scenes that

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Speaker 4: Zack Snyder added.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I love what is it? Mister Atomic

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Speaker 1: who can basically do anything at the end of the movie,

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Speaker 1: so all plots can just be resolved by mister Atomic

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Speaker 1: if necessary. Doctor Manhattan, What's his name document Professor Atomic.

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Speaker 4: I like your version better, mister Atomic. That sounds that

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Speaker 4: sounds better. No, it's a doctor Manhattan or mister Manhattan.

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Speaker 4: I think doctor Manhatten. And yeah, so he can see tachyons,

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Speaker 4: so that that's kind of how he can and he

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Speaker 4: sort of exists in this kind of quantum you know,

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Speaker 4: uncertainty space time kind of mindset, so he can see

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Speaker 4: the future, see the past, he sees it all sort

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Speaker 4: of at the same time. And so that's how the

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Speaker 4: villain in the comic book I'm not going to spoil it,

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Speaker 4: kind of gets around this. He confuses doctor Manhattan by

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Speaker 4: adding a lot of tachyon interference, and so he can't

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Speaker 4: predict the future and he doesn't know what's going to happen.

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Speaker 1: M very clever, Yes, yeah, very clever. You also see

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Speaker 1: tacions a lot in Star Trek. I noticed It's like

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Speaker 1: tachyonic pulses and tactyonic fields and all sorts of stuff.

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Speaker 1: Anytime they need to go back in time or send

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Speaker 1: messages back in time or whatever, they're always using tachions, right.

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Speaker 4: They just always sort of forget to say that these

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Speaker 4: things are not real.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, they're real. In the Star Trek universe.

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Speaker 1: I suppose they don't really play with all the consequences.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you really did have tachyons, a lot

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Speaker 1: of things would break about modern physics, right, you know.

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Speaker 1: I had a bit of a tachionic experience today. Actually,

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Speaker 1: that just reminds me. I went to file some paperwork

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Speaker 1: for my student who just defended his PhD, and he

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Speaker 1: wasn't in town, so we couldn't file it himself. So

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Speaker 1: I went to this office in the basement and turned

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Speaker 1: in these forms, and the woman at the desk must

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Speaker 1: have thought that it was my PhD, because when I

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Speaker 1: turned the forum, she reached out she said congratulations, as

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Speaker 1: if I was getting my PhD. At this moment, I thought, wow,

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Speaker 1: all right, maybe I went back in time and now

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Speaker 1: I look like I'm twenty seven again.

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Speaker 4: Or maybe she wasn't wearing her glasses.

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Speaker 1: That's another It was a pretty dark basement, so I

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Speaker 1: can excuse her.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, always in the basement.

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Speaker 1: It's in the basement. But his thesis was not on

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Speaker 1: tachions though.

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Speaker 4: But actually we don't know if they're real or not, right, Like,

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Speaker 4: it's a theoretical possibility, but we have no confirmation. Do

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Speaker 4: we have confirmation that they can exist.

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Speaker 1: We do not know that they cannot exist. Right, But

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Speaker 1: that's a pretty broad caveat because in general, it's really

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Speaker 1: hard to prove the non existence of something. And you

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Speaker 1: can always say with an asterisk, like if all we

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Speaker 1: know about physics turns out to be wrong or a

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Speaker 1: special case of the unit part of the universe we're

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Speaker 1: living in, than anything could happen. Right, So, in general,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty hard to say with absolute certainty something cannot exist.

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Speaker 1: But you can say, and we'll get into this more

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Speaker 1: more deeply, that it'd be pretty hard to fulld tachions

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Speaker 1: into our modern understanding of physics, right, maybe harder than

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Speaker 1: choking down a whole scoop of liquorice ice.

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Speaker 4: Cream more impleasant. Then you really wish you would you

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Speaker 4: could go back in time.

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Speaker 1: You know. The joke is, my wife actually loves liquorice

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Speaker 1: ice cream, and one time we went to an ice

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Speaker 1: cream place and she ordered two scoops of liquorice ice cream,

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Speaker 1: and I saw her eating her deliciously. She didn't tell

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Speaker 1: me what it was, and I tried to take a

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Speaker 1: bite out of it, and it literally like jumped out

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Speaker 1: of my mouth, it was still impulsive. Wow, ejected itself

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Speaker 1: from my mouth.

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Speaker 4: That's like your your your kryptonite or your tachion interference.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it turns out actually there's lots of things can

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Speaker 1: defeat me. But one of them on the long list

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Speaker 1: is liquoric ice cream. Yes, one of them upsets your stomach, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or my tongue.

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Speaker 4: Well, atacons is it's kind of a cool name, first

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Speaker 4: of all, tachions. But and we know that it's in

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Speaker 4: science fiction a lot. It's in comic books and science fictions,

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Speaker 4: in science fiction. But we were wondering how many people

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Speaker 4: out there knew what it means and what it refers

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Speaker 4: to it.

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Speaker 1: So I went around the uc her on campus and

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Speaker 1: I costed random students and said, hey, would you answer

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Speaker 1: a random science question? And all of them said yes,

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Speaker 1: And so I asked them about tachions. And here's what

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Speaker 1: they had to say. Heard of a tachyon? Do you

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Speaker 1: know what a tachyon is? What's your best guess? It's

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Speaker 1: a particle which gets admitted from a black hole.

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Speaker 4: Is that it?

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Speaker 1: No best guess? I would assume it has something to

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Speaker 1: do with space.

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Speaker 6: I'm space, okay.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea Okay, not yet.

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Speaker 7: I haven't heard of it. Okay, I've also heard it

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Speaker 7: in a TV show. I think it's in The Flash.

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Speaker 7: I think they talk about that, but I don't know

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Speaker 7: what it is. This sounds cool, they sounds cool. No,

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Speaker 7: I have no idea okay.

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Speaker 4: No a tak on.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what it is, but it sounds like.

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Speaker 8: Something chemical, something from Star Trek.

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Speaker 1: That's literally as far as my knowledge goes.

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Speaker 4: But I'm not actually sure if it's.

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Speaker 1: Even real or not. It could be entirely from science

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Speaker 1: fiction as far as i'm more.

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Speaker 4: All right, not a single positive answer, Not a.

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Speaker 1: Single positive answer. A lot of people had heard of it, right,

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Speaker 1: Some people had never heard of it, but some people

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Speaker 1: heard of it in content the science fiction or Star

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Speaker 1: Trek or this kind of stuff.

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Speaker 4: Oh, in the Flash, right, I think they have it

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Speaker 4: in the TV show of the Flash.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the Flash must have it, right, because he breaks

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Speaker 1: all sorts of laws of physics. It's basically the laws

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Speaker 1: of physics, break particle. Right, anytime you need to break physics,

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Speaker 1: just insert some tachions.

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Speaker 4: That's what she just called. The plot holyons, the plots right,

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Speaker 4: the plot eons. It's like, yeah, it's like filling a

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Speaker 4: pothole right with fill potholes with tachyons, fill plot holes

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Speaker 4: with tachyons. Yeah, so it's done. Not not a common

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Speaker 4: name that people are familiar with. So let's break it down, Daniel.

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Speaker 4: But first let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 4: Let's start with this. What is a tacon all right?

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Speaker 1: So tachion is a theoretical particle. Right, It's an idea.

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Speaker 1: It's idea for a particle that can travel faster than

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Speaker 1: the speed of light. Right. And remember, in relativity we

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Speaker 1: say nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.

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Speaker 1: We say things that have mass can travel less than

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Speaker 1: the speed of light. Thing and approach it, things with

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Speaker 1: no mass. Like photons, they travel always at the speed

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Speaker 1: of light, right, so there's this speed limit to the universe,

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Speaker 1: the speed of light in a vacuum. Tachions are like,

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Speaker 1: what if something could break that? What if something could

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Speaker 1: move faster than the speed of light? How would that work?

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Speaker 1: And what should we call it? So that's attacking on

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Speaker 1: is I like?

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Speaker 4: How that's the second most important question about it? Not

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Speaker 4: how will disrevolutionize our understanding on our ability to travel?

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Speaker 4: The costumes? It's like, what are we going to call it?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's big fights over the names of stuff, right.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you come up with a cool idea,

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Speaker 1: you got to name it so it sticks, right, and

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Speaker 1: you get the credit for it. You know. This is

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Speaker 1: that famous case in particle physics where two groups discovered

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Speaker 1: the same particle on the same day and gave it

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Speaker 1: different names, right the same day, the same day. Yeah, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of fun whisper stories about how

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Speaker 1: maybe grad students in one group tipped off grad students

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Speaker 1: in the other group. Anyway, they named it on the

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Speaker 1: same day, and they gave it two different names. So

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Speaker 1: now we call that particle the j SI particle. We

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Speaker 1: use both names because nobody can agree.

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Speaker 4: Right, Really, you guys have fights about this, like I

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Speaker 4: want it to be called J. No, I want it

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Speaker 4: to be called SI, Like it's not it's not even

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Speaker 4: personal to them.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it is personal. The guy who called

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Speaker 1: it J He's Chinese, and I think j is looks

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Speaker 1: like the Chinese character for his name, So I think

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00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,119
Speaker 1: it was basically naming it after himself. But no, these

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Speaker 1: are like the kids of divorced parents, you know, end

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Speaker 1: up with the long, complicated names. Anyway, Yes, so naming

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Speaker 1: things very important, and as you and I have discussed

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Speaker 1: many times in this podcast, physicists don't always do a

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Speaker 1: great job of naming things. Like sometimes they don't even

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Speaker 1: come up with a new name. They're just like, use

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Speaker 1: a word that already exists in English that means something

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Speaker 1: else to describe some physics thing, right, Like we have

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Speaker 1: particles that have flavor and color, and like particles don't

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Speaker 1: have actual flavor and color, so we should have come

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Speaker 1: up with different words. So in this case, I think

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Speaker 1: it's awesome that they actually came up with a new,

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Speaker 1: cool sounding word.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think if you discover quirk Daniel, you should

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Speaker 4: call it a new flavor.

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Speaker 1: Licorice, the disgusting quarks, the revolting quarks, the vomit quarks.

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Speaker 1: It turns out vomit is made out of little vomiton particles.

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Speaker 4: Technically that's true, yeah, if you write it in a

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Speaker 4: physics paper.

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Speaker 1: Right, So, but it's always fun theoretically to think about, like,

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Speaker 1: how could this work? What would it mean if we

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Speaker 1: took the laws of special relativity and tried to use

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Speaker 1: them to describe something going faster than the speed of light?

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Speaker 1: What would happen? What exactly would break? How could we tested?

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Speaker 1: That's sort of the point of attacking.

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Speaker 4: So it starts with a hypothesis like what if one

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Speaker 4: of these particles could go faster than light? What would

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Speaker 4: it look like?

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly exactly what would it look like? How do

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Speaker 1: we see it? Could you like break two things at

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Speaker 1: once so that in the end it's not broken, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: sometimes you have to break one law of physics and

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Speaker 1: that as a consequence somewhere else and you're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: well maybe I'll just break that one also, and then

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Speaker 1: things will be honky dory. Right, So, sometimes you can

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Speaker 1: make big discoveries by breaking two things at once. Right,

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Speaker 1: You could reveal that there were two mistakes, two misunderstandings

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Speaker 1: we had about the universe. That'd be like two Nobel

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Speaker 1: Prizes in one afternoon.

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Speaker 4: Whoa, two wrongs making it right?

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00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so that actually sort of happens here, and

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Speaker 1: so as you folks listening might know. The interesting idea relativity.

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Speaker 1: One of the core ideas in relativity is that you

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Speaker 1: can have infinite amount of energy. There's no limit on

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Speaker 1: the energy a particle can have, right, You can keep

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Speaker 1: pouring energy into a particle, but there is a limit

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Speaker 1: on speed. Right. So for example, at the Large Hadron Collider,

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Speaker 1: we push particles using little waves, so they surf and

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Speaker 1: they get more and more energy, but then they approach

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Speaker 1: the speed of light and they never really get faster.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't limit us from adding more energy to the particles, right.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of like an infinite bucket almost, like you

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Speaker 4: can keep pouring energy into it, but the speed just

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Speaker 4: won't go over the speed of light.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And if you're a visual person, you can think

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Speaker 1: of sort of a graph. Right. Our basic idea of

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Speaker 1: the relationship between speed and energy is that they're directly connected. Right,

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00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,440
Speaker 1: as you go faster, you get more energy and that's true.

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Speaker 1: But then as you approach the speed of light, it

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Speaker 1: sort of bends over and it asymptotically approaches the speed

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Speaker 1: of light. So you can keep pouring energy in, but

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00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 1: the speed never goes higher. And there's this mathematical relationship.

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Speaker 1: You can write it down, you can look at it

427
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 1: on Wikipedia. You know, it involves this complicated expression. It's

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00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 1: like energy is mass squared over the square root of

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Speaker 1: one minus v squared over C squared. And that's mathematically

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Speaker 1: how you get that expression. But the cool thing is

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Speaker 1: you can say, all right, well, what happens if you

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Speaker 1: just plug in velocity is twice the speed of light?

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Speaker 1: What happens mathematically? What does that mean? Oh?

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Speaker 4: I see, like, what have you cross over that line?

435
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 4: What have you assume that you filled the bucket and

436
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:31,160
Speaker 4: went over?

437
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And you know it's just playing around. This

438
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,120
Speaker 1: is what theoretical physicists do for fun. They're like, let's

439
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 1: poke these equations and see what happens. And so it

440
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 1: does get interesting because on the bottom of the equation

441
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 1: it gets the number inside the square root goes negative, right,

442
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 1: so you have like square root of a negative number,

443
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 1: and you're probably thinking, what you can't have the square

444
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,200
Speaker 1: rod of a negative number, right, Like, what number when

445
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,640
Speaker 1: you multiply it by itself gives you negative two? Right, Well,

446
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 1: there's no real number. You have to go to imaginary numbers.

447
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 4: Uh huh, which means that this particle is imaginary or

448
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,640
Speaker 4: it has imaginary mass.

449
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 1: Well, it means it has imaginary energy, right, because the

450
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 1: expression is energy is basically mass over this crazy velocity term.

451
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: If that velocity term goes goes imaginary, then the energy

452
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 1: goes imaginary, And you're like, what what does that mean?

453
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 1: So this is what I mean by breaking two things.

454
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 1: So then physicists thought, okay, well what if we make

455
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 1: the top part of the equation also imaginary. So we

456
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 1: make the mass imaginary. Then you have velocity greater than

457
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 1: the speed of light, imaginary mass, but real energy like

458
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 1: actual energy.

459
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 4: So if you just say that this particle has imaginary mass,

460
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 4: and let's get into what that means. But if you

461
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 4: say that it has imaginary mass, then the laws of

462
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,160
Speaker 4: physics technically don't break. If this particle goes faster than might.

463
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: Well, if I don't know that, the laws physics don't break,

464
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: we can talk about that a little later. It turns

465
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: out they break other things also, But this one equation

466
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: does hold, right, This equation for the relationship essentially between

467
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: energy and speed does hold. But yeah, it requires you

468
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 1: to have imaginary mass, and it also means for other

469
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 1: really weird things. For normal particles, as the velocity increases,

470
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 1: the energy increases, right right In this case, if you

471
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 1: look at the equation, as the speed goes up, the

472
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: energy actually goes to zero. So the faster it goes

473
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: the less energy it has. That's pretty weird.

474
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, because everything in nature wants to have low energy.

475
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 4: So that means this particle would just keep going faster

476
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 4: and faster and faster to infinity exactly.

477
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: So as it goes to zero energy, it has infinite speed.

478
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: Like what does that even mean? You know, now you

479
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 1: have a particle with like infinite speed and imaginary mass

480
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: but no energy. Right, it's pretty weird thing.

481
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 4: Uh huh. But technically maybe could exist.

482
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: Technically maybe could exist. Right, There's some causality issues we'll

483
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 1: talk about a little later, but that's sort of the concept. Like,

484
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: that's the idea of attacking on and it's a fun

485
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 1: thing to play with theoretically, and you know this is

486
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: before you think this is a waste of time. Remember,

487
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 1: this is how progress is made, you know. This is how,

488
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: for example, anti particles were discovered. People were looking at

489
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: the equations and they were like, hmm, what if you

490
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,360
Speaker 1: flip the sign of this and flip the sign of that. Oh, look,

491
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: looks like this equation would also hold for opposite charge particles.

492
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: I wonder if they exist.

493
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 4: Let's go look, I see and they did exist.

494
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: And they do exist. Yeah, there's a rich source of

495
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 1: searching around for the corners of the equations and seeing

496
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: if they describe some actual physics that might be real

497
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: that we just hadn't imagined, because there's a lot of

498
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: crazy stuff out there in the universe that we haven't

499
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 1: conceived of.

500
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 4: Well, it's kind of a philosophical thing because you're sort

501
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 4: of saying that anything that can exist mathematically so far,

502
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 4: we think has existed. Right, Like, if if the equations

503
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 4: say that this is possible and doesn't break everything else,

504
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 4: then if you keep searching, you sort of so far

505
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 4: you sort of you found it.

506
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a subtle point, right. Sometimes we have mathematical

507
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: descriptions of things and then we look at the mathematics

508
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 1: we're like, well, the math says that, but physics says no, right, Like,

509
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 1: sometimes a mathematical equation will have two solutions and one

510
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: of them will be nonsense, and you say, well, that's

511
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: not physical, so we'll ignore it. But yeah, then you

512
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: have to wonder is it really is that? Are we

513
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 1: doing science there or are we just sort of like

514
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 1: enforcing our prejudices? Right? Should we be more open minded

515
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: and explore all the possibilities of the math. And sometimes

516
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: the math is all we have, Like, look at quantum mechanics.

517
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: You can't even apply your intuition. You just have to

518
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 1: blindly follow the math and say, well, quantum mechanics says

519
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: a particle can appear on one side of the barrier

520
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: and then appear on the other side of the barrier

521
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: without passing through it. So and then we do the

522
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: experiments and it happens, right, So sometimes you just have

523
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: to follow the math.

524
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, you say, sometimes you have to be kind of

525
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 4: open minded and say, hey, what if maths could be

526
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 4: imaginary and let's see what happens.

527
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: Then yes, that's exactly that's the whole point, right, That's

528
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: why you poke these equations because it could just be

529
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: our prejudice. It could be that the way we're thinking

530
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: about the universe is determined by the way we have

531
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 1: experienced it, which is, we know, not typical and not fundamental. Right,

532
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: So we don't want to be have our eyes closed

533
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: because of the biases of the way we have lived

534
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: and grown up, Right, So we want to keep our

535
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,239
Speaker 1: own eyes open, and sometimes the math is a very

536
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: helpful guide.

537
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 4: Well, I have a great money making scheme for you, Daniel.

538
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 4: It's called the Tachyon diet makes your mass imaginary.

539
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: Gee, I imagined you were fat, but I guess that

540
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: was wrong.

541
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, you just had the wrong perspective in physics.

542
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, what's the diet? Run fast in the speed

543
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: of light and you'll lose weight.

544
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 4: I think it's go back in time and stop yourself

545
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 4: from eating all that liquors ice cream is.

546
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: You know, we're recording this podcast on pie day, so

547
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: we should have done all these examples with pie instead

548
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: of ice cream. Hi, Lior, liquorice pie. That sounds even

549
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: more gross than liquors ice cream, if that's even possible.

550
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 4: Here, let's go back in time using tachions and start over.

551
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 1: In a replace search and replace ice cream with pie.

552
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: But hey, pie and ice cream go well together. So

553
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: we'll start with ice cream and we'll switch over to pie,

554
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 1: and then the episode would be like alla mode.

555
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, they go well together. So let's get into what

556
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 4: they actually might look like. But first, let's take a

557
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 4: quick break.

558
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

559
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of greeky yogurt, you're probably

560
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

561
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy

562
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

563
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

564
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

565
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

566
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

567
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes

568
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy

569
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn

570
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 1: them thing from maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

571
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

572
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone. Know

573
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 1: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

574
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 1: the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient intents

575
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

576
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 1: us dairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

577
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,000
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578
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579
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581
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582
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583
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Speaker 10: AI experiences with Lenovo's think Pad x one carbon powered

584
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 10: by Intel Core ultraprocessors.

585
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 8: There are chiltern friends and families walking, riding on passing

586
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 8: the roads every day. Remember they're real people with loved

587
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 8: ones who need them to.

588
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: Get home safely.

589
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 8: Protect our cyclists and pedestrians because they are people too.

590
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: Go safely.

591
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 8: California from the California Office of Traffic Safety and Caltrans.

592
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 4: All right, Daniel, So that's a tachyon. It's a theoretical

593
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 4: particle with imaginary mass that can go faster on the

594
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 4: speed of light. So what does that even look like?

595
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 4: What would the tachyon look like? What could we interact

596
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 4: with it?

597
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's where it gets really fun as you start

598
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: to think, how could we see tachyons? What experiments could

599
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: you build to detect them? Right? And we think tachyons,

600
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: you know, they have masks though it's imaginary, and we

601
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: think we could interact with them. We don't know what

602
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: kind of interactions they might have, but imagine that they're visible, right,

603
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: that they interact with light, Then you can think about

604
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: like doing an experiment to look at a tachyon. This

605
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: already gets really tricky because the tacions are moving faster

606
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: than the light they might be emitting. So you know

607
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: how like an airplane moving through the air creates a

608
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,719
Speaker 1: sonic boom because it's moving faster than the sound it

609
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: makes right, Right, That means that you can't hear the

610
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: airplane coming. Right, one of those airplanes is coming at you,

611
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 1: then you're not going to hear it coming because the

612
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: sound it's making it is trailing behind it.

613
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 4: So you it would just magically appear to you.

614
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's the same thing for a take on. Right,

615
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: If a taky on is moving and it's moving faster

616
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: than the speed of light, and it's coming right at you,

617
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: you wouldn't see it until it's on top of you. Right, Wow,

618
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: it would just appear to you.

619
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 4: That's just bad manners. I mean, that's just taky.

620
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: You know, it's tacky and it's Anya. That must have

621
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: been how they got the name, right, Yeah, and I

622
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: spilled my liquorice pie all over my suit.

623
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 4: Let's just show up at this guy's house and be like,

624
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 4: is this why you came up with the name have

625
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 4: some Pie?

626
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: Yeah? In fact, in fact, you would see the tachyon.

627
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: But even weirder than it just appearing all of a sudden,

628
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: is it would look like it's going away from you. Yeah.

629
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: When you see something moving away from you, what you're

630
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: really seeing are a bunch of time slices. Right. You

631
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: see it's closer to you now, it's a little further

632
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: away from you. A moment later, it's a little further

633
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: away from you a moment after that. Right. Oh, that's

634
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: the order of arrival of images from tachyons.

635
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 4: You would first see the photons that are that it

636
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 4: admitted when it was close to you before you saw

637
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 4: the photons that it admitted when it was far from you.

638
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. So if you play that movie, your brain's

639
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: gonna be like, oh, there's a taking on moving away

640
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: from you, right, so attacking on. If you see a

641
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: tachyon moving away from you, it means you just got

642
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: hit by a tacky on.

643
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 4: But you would see it. Oh, so you would see it.

644
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 8: Hmm.

645
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 4: You almost see it moving backwards in time.

646
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: Right, like, yeah, exactly, you see it moving the reverse

647
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: direction it's actually going.

648
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 4: So that's weird.

649
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: That's pretty weird, right. It's weird for particles to look

650
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: like they're going different speeds if they're coming towards you

651
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: or going away from you.

652
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 5: Right.

653
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: We're just not used to that, and that's because of

654
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: this weird feature that they travel faster than the information

655
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: that they're sending. Right.

656
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 4: Well, that's kind of one of the reasons why physicists

657
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 4: don't think you can even go faster than the speed

658
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 4: of flight, because it would just be so weird.

659
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, would break a lot of rules. But you know,

660
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: sometimes things are weird, and being weird doesn't necessarily mean

661
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: that they're wrong, you know. I think one of the

662
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: really fascinating things. Is this question of imaginary mass that

663
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier.

664
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, I'm still hung up in that. What does

665
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 4: that mean?

666
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,959
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well what does it mean? Right? And you have

667
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: to think for a moment about what we mean by

668
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: a particle's mass. When we say, you know, electron has

669
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: a certain mass, what we mean is that the particles

670
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: is stable, like exists, it can hang out for a

671
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: little while. And we just did that episode about what

672
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: particles are, and turns out particles are not like the

673
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: building block of the universe at all. They are just

674
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: excited states of quantum fields. Right, So what is a

675
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: particle of a certain mass. It's a stable excitation of

676
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: a quantum field, Meaning there's this weird jelly out there

677
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: that knows how to wiggle, and it can wiggle in

678
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: a certain way that sticks around for a while.

679
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 4: Mass is kind of a marker of how stable the

680
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 4: wiggles are.

681
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So if you talk about a particle with

682
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: imaginary mass, you're talking about strange wiggles going through this

683
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: these quantum fields, right, these jellies wiggling in a weird way,

684
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: and not in a way that's stable. Right. Imaginary mass

685
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: does not mean it's a stable particle. It means it's

686
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: something else, and you're trying to describe it in terms

687
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: of a particle, and so you get a weird answer.

688
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 10: You know.

689
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, I see, It's.

690
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: Like if you use the language of one thing to

691
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: try to describe something else, it doesn't really make sense,

692
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: you know.

693
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 4: So it's almost like we get we have to stop

694
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 4: using the word particle and just say wiggles in a

695
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 4: quantum field. And if you just stop calling it a

696
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 4: particle and just call everything wiggles in a quantum field,

697
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 4: then you could technically have a wiggle that has imaginary mass.

698
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right, And it breaks your idea of what

699
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: a particle is. But anyway, what your idea of a

700
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: particle is is probably wrong anyway, So feel free to

701
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: break it all, smash it all ahead, you know, just yeah, yeah,

702
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: well it's true. You know, particles are not fundamental, right,

703
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: They are an emergent phenomena. They come from how quantum

704
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: fields wiggle. And we don't know quantum fields are fundamental

705
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: either or there's something else that makes them. But we

706
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: do know the particles themselves we're not fundamental because you know,

707
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: they can be created and disappear. So tachyons are like

708
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: a weird different way for quantum fields to wiggle. And

709
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: that's what imaginary mass is. It's this. It's a sort

710
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: of a breakdown of trying to describe quantum fields in

711
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: terms of particles. Right, it's saying you should look at

712
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 1: this in a different way.

713
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 4: But it could technically exist, Like would these fields could

714
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 4: wiggle in that way?

715
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 1: I don't think so. And and the reason is that

716
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: if you had tachions, then these fields could wiggle in

717
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: a way that breaks causality. Right, And so this is physics, right.

718
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: The math says it's fine. The math says, there's no

719
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 1: problem with it. You can incorporate this into special relativity.

720
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 1: You get these weird things like zero energy and infinite speed.

721
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: But you know, the math is happy with it. Physics

722
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: says no. Physics says, but we have these other rules,

723
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: these other rules, like causes happen before effects. You know,

724
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 1: messages have to arrive after they're scent, not before. Right.

725
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: You have to be born after your grandfather, not before

726
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. We impose these requirements on the

727
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: universe and on the laws of physics separately.

728
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 4: Right, But why does the universe have to follow causality?

729
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 4: Couldn't we, like you said, be open minded and imagine

730
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 4: a universe that is not causal?

731
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose we could, But it's sort of hard

732
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: to logically argue for a non causal universe because logic

733
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: requires causality. Right.

734
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 4: Well, I feel like you're saying logic requires logic. But

735
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 4: what if yes, maybe the universe is not logical.

736
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're saying, like, could we describe? Could we

737
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: have laws of physics that describe a universe that doesn't

738
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: have laws? I don't know how to do that. It's

739
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: so fundamental to the way we think. It's a fundamental

740
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: to the way humanity thinks, not even just about physics,

741
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: you know, I think that we are storytellers. We weave

742
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: all of our experiences into stories, and that's how we

743
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,399
Speaker 1: remember things and forget things and communicate to each other.

744
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: That's how we build models of the world that's outside

745
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: our head. And stories are causal right there, They're a

746
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: narrative that I did this, and then this happened. I

747
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: shot this laser beam and then you know this, the

748
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: wall burnt down or whatever, right licouriice ice cream? And

749
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: then I threw up right, this cause and effect.

750
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 4: So you can write stories, I mean science fiction, you

751
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 4: can write stories to that have tacons in them. You

752
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 4: know what I mean, Like you can you can imagine

753
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 4: it break story.

754
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: Breaks the story. Right, it's a huge plot hole. That's

755
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: why I hate time travel in science fiction because it

756
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: breaks causality. Right, it doesn't make any sense.

757
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 4: Okay, well let's break it down. What does it mean? Like,

758
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 4: if this particle existed, I think can go faster than light.

759
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 4: What are some of the things cool things you could

760
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 4: do with it?

761
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: Right? So, in special relativity, if you have something that

762
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: goes faster than light, what it means is you can

763
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: break causality. You can kind of go backwards in time. Now,

764
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 1: remember we talked about special relativit on another episode, and

765
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: something we talked about is how there's no universal description

766
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: of how things happen. Right. If, for example, if I

767
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: shoot two laser beams, one to the left and one

768
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: to the right, and I'm just looking at both, I

769
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: can say, okay, they the two laser beams hit the

770
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: targets at the same time. Because the targets is the

771
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: same distance away. Somebody else with a different speed might

772
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: see those events happening at different times. They might say, oh,

773
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: laser beam one hit before laser beam two, and somebody

774
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: else at a different speed might see laser beam two

775
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: happen before laser beam one. Right, So if you can

776
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: change so you can change the order in which you

777
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: see things happening based on your speed, that just tells

778
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 1: you there's no absolute truth to the universe, right right, Okay,

779
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: so okay, but those things are not causally linked. Right,

780
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: It doesn't really matter if laser beam one one hits

781
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: or laser beam two hits. Okay, but what if you

782
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: just had the one laser beam and you press the button? Right,

783
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,919
Speaker 1: Can the laser beam arrive before it leaves? Right? Can

784
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: the laser beam hit the target before you've pressed the button?

785
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: Those two things are causally linked, right, It seems impossible

786
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: for it to get there before you press the button.

787
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 4: Well, it's costantly linked. If you go backwards in time.

788
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean? Like it arrived because

789
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 4: in the future, I'm gonna press the button.

790
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, But what if it arrives and then you change

791
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: your mind, You're like, you know what, I'm not gonna

792
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: hit that laser beam button? Right, now, but it's already.

793
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,919
Speaker 4: Arrived, right, But if you changed your mind, that means

794
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 4: you didn't see it. I feel like this is a

795
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 4: like you can pick a different movie to go with

796
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 4: your theory. Like there's there are the movies that movies.

797
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: They are not loss of physics.

798
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 4: All right, fine graphic novels.

799
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 1: That's going coming, No, Like seriously, the laser beam arrives

800
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: and if later you still have a choice to make

801
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: about whether to press that button, then you could choose

802
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: not to fire the laser beam right and then, But

803
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: the laser beams already arrived, So how does that work? Anyway?

804
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: The point is multiverse. Point is relativity covers that. Okay,

805
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 1: Relativity says that for events that are not causally linked,

806
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 1: or one could happen before the other, you can travel

807
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 1: fast enough if you want that you could see either

808
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: one happen first. But for things that are causally connected,

809
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: where one has to happen before the other, like pressing

810
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: a button on your laser and then hitting the target,

811
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 1: there's no speed you can go to see the laser

812
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: arrive before you press the button. To do that, you

813
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: would have to go faster than the speed of light

814
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: to reverse the order of events, and relativity says you can't.

815
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: But what if there wasn't a speed limit, right, What

816
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: if you could shoot particles fasten the speed of light. Well,

817
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 1: then you could go fast enough so that messages could

818
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: arrive before they're scent, right, Laser beams could hit the

819
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 1: targets before you press the button if you go fast

820
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: in the speed of light, so it breaks causality.

821
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 4: If the light goes faster than the speed of light,

822
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 4: or if you send a message via attack.

823
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: Count if you send a message via attack. Yeah, exactly, Okay,

824
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: So tachions, if they can travel fasten the speed of light,

825
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 1: can sort of reverse the events, reverse orders of events,

826
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: so that effects happen before causes, right, which is pretty.

827
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 4: Weird, Which is pretty cool.

828
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 1: It would be pretty cool. Sure, Yeah, you know, like, hey,

829
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: I already ate that pie. Now I'd like to go

830
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,720
Speaker 1: back in time and decide not to eat that pie.

831
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,240
Speaker 1: Then you could have eaten the pie and have decided

832
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: not to eat the pie, and yeah, it would break

833
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: the universe, but at least you wouldn't gain those five pounds.

834
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 4: That would be kind of tacky though, if you did

835
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 4: that at a restaurant, Not.

836
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: If his liquor is pie, then I totally endorse it,

837
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: just breaking the universe to avoid eating it.

838
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 4: So it's almost like an anti telephone, like it sends

839
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 4: sends your message before you even think about sending the message.

840
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, And that's what it's called. It's called a

841
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: tachyonic anti telephone. Exactly. If you had tachions, you could

842
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,959
Speaker 1: use them to build a telephone that sent messages back

843
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: in time exactly that way.

844
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 4: That's what I should tell my kids. It's not that

845
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 4: I don't wanted to play with my phone, it's just

846
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 4: that we're an anti telephone.

847
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: It's an anti telephone. Don't bring it near a telephone,

848
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: it'll blow up.

849
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 4: So you're basically saying that taccions are kind of impossible

850
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 4: because it would break the logic of the universe.

851
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean if you hold causality be a

852
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: fundamental principle of the universe, which I do, then it's

853
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: pretty hard to believe that anything could go faster than

854
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 1: the speed of light. But the math says tachions could exist,

855
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: and it's possible that we're wrong about causality. That it's

856
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 1: just it's a prejudice that we've imposed on the universe

857
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,280
Speaker 1: because it's the way we think, and maybe the universe

858
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: doesn't operate the way we think. Totally possible. Happened lots

859
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: of times in physics that we've upended our basic understanding

860
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: of the universe, right, and I've been confronted by reality.

861
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, Well that was cool to learn what

862
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 4: attacking is and how it's an imaginary or it has

863
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 4: imaginary mass and it's theoretically possible but not likely. And

864
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 4: Dannity had the idea of closing this episode with a limerick.

865
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was doing some research about Tachians and I

866
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: found this hilarious physics poem. Right, It's not that often

867
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: that you find physics and humor and poetry altogether, and

868
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: so I thought, let's jump on the opportunity.

869
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,919
Speaker 4: Right, sub subgenre of science fiction.

870
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, not many authors specialize in this area, but there

871
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: is one. This is by a gentleman named Reginald Buller,

872
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: and it goes like this. There was a young lady

873
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: named Bright whose speed was far faster than light. She

874
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: went out one day in a relative way and returned

875
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: the previous night. So there is your physics poetry. I

876
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: noticed you didn't laugh.

877
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 4: Well, I was just hung up on that first line.

878
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 4: Her name is Bright. That sounds like a plot hole

879
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 4: to me.

880
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 1: I see, mister, the universe follows the laws of television

881
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: shows and movies is now cratizing. I think the physics

882
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 1: poetry for not being accurate. Nice.

883
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know how many how many people do you

884
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 4: know are called pride? Anyways, I'm actually a member of

885
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 4: an organization called the Brights. M I don't know what

886
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 4: to do with that.

887
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: Not joking, all right, So thanks everyone for listening to

888
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: this non tacky episode about tachyons. For bending your mind

889
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: a little bit. And remember that's some of those crazy

890
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: ideas that earned physicists head and science fiction authors are

891
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: writing about. They could actually be real. And one day

892
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: we might discover that the universe is far far stranger

893
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: than we ever imagined.

894
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, and if one day you do discover tacons, why

895
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 4: don't you send a message to yourself backwards of time

896
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 4: and let us know that's right?

897
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: Hey, we could do a test right now, right in

898
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: the future, somebody discovers tachons, send us a message to

899
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: arrive right now.

900
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 4: Wait, hold on, I just got a call. Wait here

901
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 4: we go, Let me let you pick it up. Hold on.

902
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: Is it from a lady named Bright She's pissed at

903
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: you for insulting her name. Ask her in the future off.

904
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: Our podcast is a huge success.

905
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,879
Speaker 4: Okay, hold on, let me text Heim. Oh well, wait,

906
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 4: my phone doesn't send things. Oh wait does send things

907
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 4: into the future.

908
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: So it does send things into the future, just not backward.

909
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 4: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. See you

910
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 4: next time. Guys, thanks for tuning in.

911
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: Before you still have a question after listening to all

912
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: these explanations, please drop us a line. We'd love to

913
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 1: hear from you. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter,

914
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Daniel and jorgey that's one word, or

915
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: email us at Feedback at Danielandhorge dot com. Thanks for

916
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: listening and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe

917
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,

918
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Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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