1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: After the West had been one, the gold had been gotten. 2 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: This was the last frontier in America, this god forsaken twump. 3 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 2: Telling the story as big as the one The Mississippi 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: River has is a challenge. Like its drainage basin, which 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: stretches from New York to Idaho all the way down 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: to the Gulf of Mexico, its reaches wide and diverse, 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 2: like its stories. The end of episode one was like 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 2: coming to an intersection that split into seven different roads 9 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 2: that all looked equally as promising. Each road a story 10 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 2: I have simply chosen in a direction that suits me 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 2: and seems logical. I want to talk about the settlement 12 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: of the Mississippi Delta and the people who were here 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 2: and the challenges that gave them their identity. Will be 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 2: veering out of the river into its floodplain, because, as 15 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: William Faulkner said, to understand the world, you must first 16 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: understand a place like Mississippi. Once again, we'll be leaning 17 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: on author Hank Berdine and New York Times bestselling author 18 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 2: John Barry, and a new voice to bear grease, mistery 19 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 2: and I's dear friend raised in the Delta, mister Earl Jasper. 20 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 3: This is as. 21 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 2: Unique a bear Grease as we've ever made. I really 22 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: doubt you're gonna want to miss this. 23 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 4: One faith family community help keep you grounded, help keep 24 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 4: your mind straight, and kept you to the point where 25 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 4: you said, Okay, this is where it is right now, 26 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 4: and you won't have to deal with this always just 27 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 4: stay focused. 28 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: My name is Clay Nukem, and this is the Bear 29 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search 30 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 2: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the 31 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: story of Americans who live their lives close to the land. 32 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: Presented by FHF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and 33 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 2: fishing gear as designed to be as rugged as the 34 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: places we explore. It's not like most rivers, beautiful to 35 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: the site, not one that the eye loves to dwell 36 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: upon as it sweeps along, nor can wander along its 37 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: bank or trust yourself without danger to its stream. It 38 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 2: is a furious, rapid, desolating torrent, loaded with alluvial soil, 39 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: pouring its impetuous water through wild tracks. It sweeps down 40 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 2: whole forest with its course, which disappear in tumultuous confusion, 41 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: whirled away by the stream now loaded with a mass 42 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: of soil which nourish their roots, often blocking up and 43 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: changing the channel of the river, which, in its anger 44 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: at being opposed inundates and devastates the whole country around. 45 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: It is a river of desolation, and instead of reminding you, 46 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 2: like other rivers, of an angel which has descended for 47 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: the benefit of man, you imagine it a devil. A 48 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 2: European traveler wrote this about the Mississippi River in eighteen 49 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: thirty seven. I saw this in John Berry's book Rising Tide. 50 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: She's a real beast. The Mississippi River drains parts of 51 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: thirty one states and two Canadian provinces, and forty one 52 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: percent of the continental United States if you count the 53 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: Missouri River its tributary. The Mississippi is the longest river 54 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: in the world. Only the Amazon and the Congo have 55 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 2: larger drainage basins. We misstated in the last episode and 56 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: said that the Nile had a bigger drainage basin, but 57 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: the Big Muddy has a bigger drainage basin than the Nile. 58 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: The river slopes in an average of three inches per mile, 59 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: runs through some of the flattest ground in the world, 60 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: with average speeds around nine miles per hour and eighteen 61 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: In a flood, the riverbed can scour sixty feet deep 62 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 2: and fill itself back in in a month. At flood stage, 63 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 2: the river can pump out over four million acre feet 64 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 2: of water per day. In the last episode, we learned 65 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: about the energy of rivers, their hydraulic complexity, and their 66 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 2: drive to carry sediment. We learned about levees and dikes 67 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 2: and jetties and cutoffs, and got a sense of the 68 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 2: river's sheer size. We've learned about some of the early 69 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 2: human history of the river and its importance to America. 70 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: And if you'll give me the liberty, we're going to 71 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 2: focus on the people in one particular part of the 72 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 2: Lower Mississippi, a place called the delta. But we first 73 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 2: have got to define the big concept of the delta. 74 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 3: There's two deltas. Stay with me. 75 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: A river delta is a triangular shape made by the 76 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: deposition of sediment as moving water intersects a non moving 77 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 2: body of water, and the slowing speed makes the sediment 78 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 2: settle out and from above this would look like a 79 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 2: triangle like the Greek letter delta. The true geologic head 80 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: of the Mississippi delta starts at Cape Girardo, Missouri and 81 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 2: runs all the way to New Orleans. At one time, 82 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 2: the Gulf of Mexico extended far north into America and 83 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: the river filled in the ocean with sediment, building this 84 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: big delta. However, the term Mississippi Delta can mean a 85 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 2: more specific region in Mississippi and Arkansas, and when people 86 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 2: say the delta in the South, they're often referring to 87 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 2: the alluvial floodplain of the Mississippi from Memphis to Vicksburg, 88 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 2: which also includes the floodplain of the Yazoo River, which 89 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 2: flows through the interior of Mississippi and empties into. 90 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 3: The river at Vicksburg. 91 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 2: This delta also includes the west side of the Mississippi 92 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 2: in this stretch in Arkansas. It's the delta inside of 93 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 2: the Delta. Here's our Captain Hank Berdine from Chatham, Mississippi, 94 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: introducing us to the delta. 95 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: What we call the Mississippi Delta was on alluvial bottom 96 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: land on a Lousville hardwood bottomland of the Azoo and 97 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: the Mississippi deltas it was an impenetrable jungle flooded every year. 98 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: It was solid hardwoods and then the swamp areas, cypress trees, 99 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: your oxbow lakes, willow trees, cypresses. You could hardly walk 100 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: through a lot of the areas along the riparian banks 101 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: of the rivers, creeks and streams in here because of 102 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: the dense, dense cambrige, and you couldn't walk from unless 103 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: you hacked them with a cane knife or follow the 104 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: game trail. In the woods itself, the trees were comparable 105 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: to a lot of the Redwoods and all right in California, 106 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: because you had these massive oaks, some of them sixteen 107 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: eighteen feet in diameter, with a canopy over the top 108 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: that shaded below. So you didn't have a lot of 109 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: trees underneath that brush because the something couldn't. 110 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: Get to them. 111 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: But then you'd get up next to a creek and 112 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: there was a cane break that you couldn't walk through, 113 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: and it was an impenetrable jungle. It was loaded with bear, wildcats, panthers, alligators, 114 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: alligator snapping turtles, alligator gau You had monstrous cotton mouthed 115 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: water markings and diamondback rattlesnakes. It was a wildlife paradise, 116 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: but you couldn't hardly get in here. 117 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 2: It's hard to imagine these ancient virgin forests and cane breaks. 118 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: And he didn't mention the waterfowl super highway the river 119 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: was and still is today. The incredible the natural resources 120 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: of the Delta were protected by the flooding of the 121 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: river far longer than most places in America. Mississippi became 122 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: a state in eighteen seventeen, but much of the western 123 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 2: side of the state, the river side, was undeveloped until 124 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 2: after the Civil War. The government levees of the late 125 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds made this region habitable, but before levees it 126 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: was a wild place. Here's an excerpt from John Berry's 127 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 2: book Rising Tide. 128 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 3: About the pre civilized Delta. 129 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 2: The land, wrote another traveler, was a jungle equal to 130 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 2: any in Africa, with dense forests of cane and giant 131 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 2: trees from which hung great, clinging vines of wild grape 132 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: and muskydine. The density of growth suffocated, choked off air, 133 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 2: held in moisture, and a pulsating heat was so thick 134 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: a horse and rider couldn't penetrate. Even on foot. One 135 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 2: needed to cut one's way through. Only the trees, some 136 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: hundred feet high, burst above the choking vines and cane 137 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 2: into the sunshine. Stinging flies, gnats, and mosquitoes swarmed around 138 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: any visitors. One pioneer reported killing fourteen bears in eight days. 139 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 2: One warned of wolves and the fatted alligator, while the 140 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 2: panther basket at the river's edge, and the cane breaks 141 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: almost impervious to man, nearly as large as a young calf. 142 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 2: They're the most savage looking animal I ever saw. Their strong, 143 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 2: sinewy legs with large hooked claws like a cat, could 144 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: tear a man to pieces in a trice if they 145 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: chose to the wild animals, the rattlesnakes, and water moccasins. 146 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 2: The yellow fever and malaria made it worried. One settler quote, 147 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: almost worth a man's life to cast his lot in 148 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 2: the swamp. Yet the river made it worth the risk. 149 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 2: The river left gold in the delta. It was gold, 150 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: the color of chocolate. Gold that was not in the earth, 151 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 2: but was the earth elsewhere. One measures the thickness of 152 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: good top soil and inches here good lush soil measures 153 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: tens of feet thick. A nineteen oh one report published 154 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 2: by the American Economic Association said, quote, nature knows not 155 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: how to compound a richer soil. A nineteen oh six 156 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 2: scientific assessment concluded that the nutrients and the soil were 157 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: unexcelled by those of any other soil in the world. 158 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 2: The Delta, however, overwhelmed individual farmers. To take the land 159 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: from the river, to clear it, to drain it, and 160 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 2: protect it required an enormous outlay of capital and labor. 161 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 2: From the first the Delta demanded organization, capital, entrepreneurship, and 162 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 2: gambling instincts. It was a place for empire. That's a 163 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 2: wild place. Here's hank with how this jungle the river 164 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 2: side of the Mississippi was settled, and it. 165 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: Will not until before the Civil War that the Delta 166 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: even began being cleared. Folks would come down the river 167 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 1: from Kentucky, get on the river bank, which every river 168 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: has a riparian bank, which builds a natural levee on 169 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: it itself. As the floods come and the water overflows 170 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: the banks, what it does. The heavier particles come out first. 171 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: That is your sandier particles, your heavy loamy type things 172 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: will drift down and away from that bank. You get 173 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: into bottom, lower areas, and that's where your real silty, fine, 174 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: fine sands, fine dirt and loam settle down. That's what 175 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: we call buckshott gumbo. It's a real heavy clay type dirt. 176 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: Your sandier upper ground we call sandy loan call it 177 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: ice cream, ice cream dirt. I mean, you can go 178 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: out there and throw curnel of corn out there and 179 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: next thing you know, you got corn crop. You know, 180 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: it's some of the most fertile dirt that we've said 181 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: in the world. So the only area is beginning to 182 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: be cleared and for cotton well on the Missippi Ruver. 183 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 2: The only agriculture on the western side of the Mississippi 184 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 2: before the Civil War was right along the banks of 185 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 2: the Mississippi River. They didn't penetrate into the interior of 186 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 2: the Delta. That's important to understand. In eighteen seventy nine, 187 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: less than ten percent of the Delta was developed. That 188 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: means ninety percent of it was virgin forest. It truly 189 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: was a wilderness. And here's how they eventually got inland. 190 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: During that time, there were no roads. There weren't no railroads. 191 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: There was no way to get in here. Here's a swamp. 192 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: So the state of Mississippi gave rights of way, huge 193 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: tracks of rights of way to railroad companies to begin 194 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: opening up the Delta for cotton production and logging. So 195 00:12:54,640 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: once the railroad companies realized the high rout that they 196 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: needed to take to get into the Delta, then they 197 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: began nudging into the North Delta out of Memphis and 198 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: off of those railroad lines. They'd run what we called 199 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: little dummy lines. 200 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 4: Didn't they have what. 201 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: We call a groundhog. Sawmell easily moved Sawmell. And because 202 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 1: of the timber, the oak, the ash, the cypress, the 203 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: pecan that came out of the Mississippi Delta, Memphis became 204 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: known as the hardwood capital of the world. They were 205 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: producing more hardwood than anywhere else because of the Mississippi Delta. Now, 206 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: as those lands were cleared by the timber companies, if 207 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: it was good ground, they would sell off those excess 208 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: rights of ways to folks coming in from Virginia, the Carolinas, Kentucky, 209 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 1: different areas to continue the clearing and open up for 210 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: cotton production. 211 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 2: The railroads opened up new country paid for by logging. 212 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 2: At this time, wood was the primary construction material for 213 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 2: almost everything that man made. Once the land was cleared, 214 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: it went into private ownership for farms. Here's some perspective 215 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 2: on the timing of the settlement of the Delta. 216 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: During that time in early eighteen hundreds on up through 217 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: the middle eighteen hundreds, as the West was being opened up, 218 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: Transcontinental Railroad was completed, the gold rush had gone on 219 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: in California. They had already cut the majority of the 220 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: timber in the northeast, and then they hit the northwest, 221 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: the Redwoods, the big Sequaliya areas, Washington State. This was 222 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: the very last area in the country. The timber here 223 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: was massive. I would ask my mama men conversations, what 224 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: is so unique about the Delta. It say it's the people, 225 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: and I would say, yes, that's absolutely a never disputed 226 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: my mama on anything, but I would say, yes, it 227 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: is the people. And I want to love step further 228 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: the people that win the Delta. Then, after the West 229 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: had been one, the gold had been gotten, this was 230 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: the last frontier in America, this god forsaken swamp. And 231 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: those people that came in here were true pioneers. They 232 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: were in an uninhabitable place trying to eke out a 233 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: living in some of the best dirt in the world. 234 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: So when I think of that it's that pioneering spirit 235 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: that helped create the Delta, to make the Delta what 236 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: it is today. And a lot of the people that 237 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: are in the Delta right now today. I said, grandparents. 238 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: It's not a great great grandparents, I said, grandparents that 239 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: were true pioneers that came in here opening this place up. 240 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 2: Hank's grandparents cleared land for and started farming and helped 241 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 2: found the town of Ruleville, Mississippi. It's not intuitive to 242 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 2: think that the Mississippi Delta region of this country was 243 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 2: one of the last to be settled. We typically think 244 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: of the West being the last region settled. However, nowhere 245 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 2: else had such a giant flooding river. It wasn't until 246 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: after the big government levees of the late eighteen hundreds 247 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 2: that this region was truly safe to live in, well, 248 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: sort of safe. 249 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: As all of that was happening, the Delta was being 250 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: cleared from the top downtrod to bottom. William Faulkner would 251 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: come in here and hunt. He called it to big Woods, 252 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: and he saw what was happening and wrote in one 253 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: of his books that the Mississippi Delta was deaniy rivered, deswamped, 254 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: and denuded in two generations. Once those railroads started coming in, 255 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: and that's what happened. 256 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: Once they learned how to live in the delta, it 257 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 2: opened up fast and furious. If you remember Bear Grease 258 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 2: Hall of Famer, Hulk Callier, a former enslaved man, was 259 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 2: a market hunter who sold bear meat to logging camps 260 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 2: in the late eighteen hundreds. He was legitimately believed to 261 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 2: have killed three thousand bears in his lifetime. 262 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 3: He was a hound hunter. 263 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 2: You can hear that whole series on Bear Grease episode 264 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 2: sixty eight, seventy and seventy two. It's all about Hulk Callier, 265 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 2: and I hope you remember that. Our boat Captain Hank 266 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: Berdine is one of the guardians of Hult Collier's legacy 267 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 2: in Mississippi. He and Minor Ferris Buchanan worked hard to 268 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: get Holt's grave turned into a monument in downtown Greenville, Mississippi. 269 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 2: Hank can hardly talk about Holt without crying. I think 270 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 2: that's something. William Faulkner, who Hank talked about, was from 271 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 2: Mississippi and is considered one of the greatest American writers 272 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 2: of the twentieth century, who rebirthed the Southern narrative to 273 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 2: the country. He was known for his elaborate prose and 274 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 2: for using multiple narrators called stream of consciousness writing. But 275 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 2: his big theme was exposing the sense of tragedy carried 276 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 2: by the people in the South after the Civil War. 277 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 2: This place was war torn and beat up. Falkner was 278 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 2: known for writing about the complex racial issues in the South. 279 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 2: Here's the quote that Hank was talking about. It's from 280 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 2: Falkner's book, Go Down Moses, written in nineteen forty. I've 281 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: slightly revised this quote, omitting a touch of the original language. 282 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 4: Here. 283 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 3: It is. 284 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: This delta, he thought, this delta, this land which man 285 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 2: has de swamped and denuded and derivered in two generations, 286 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 2: so that white men can own plantations and commute every 287 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 2: night to Memphis, and black men own plantations and writeing 288 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 2: Jim Crow cars to Chicago to live in millionaire's mansions 289 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: on Lake Shore Drive, where white men rent farms and 290 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 2: live like black people, and blacks crop on shares and 291 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 2: live like animals, where cotton is planet and grows man 292 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 2: tall in the very cracks of the sidewalks, and usury 293 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 2: and mortgage and bankruptcy and measureless wealth, Chinese, African, Aran 294 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 2: and jew all breed and spawn together until no man 295 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 2: has time to say which is witch, nor cares no wonder. 296 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 2: The ruined woods I used to know don't cry for retribution. 297 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 2: The people who have destroyed it will accomplish its revenge. 298 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: It's clear that, like the natural system of the river, 299 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: the history of this place is complex. I don't fully 300 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 2: claim to understand what Faultner meant, except for one part. 301 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 2: He was saying that the people who destroyed the physical delta, 302 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 2: drained her swamps and cut her ancient trees, will self 303 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 2: inflict the land's revenge. He connected the social challenges of 304 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 2: the South to its treatment of the land, which is 305 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 2: an interesting thought. 306 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 3: It's almost like the richness. 307 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 2: Of the soil bred a unique kind of human greed. 308 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 2: But the South doesn't stand out in this country as 309 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 2: the only place that has abused the land. The impact 310 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: of civilization and all that that includes has been widespread, 311 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 2: and interestingly, it seems like we're having social issues everywhere. 312 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 2: I have a question for John Berry about the delta. 313 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 2: So there was a quote in the book from a 314 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: geologist in eighteen fifty seven, and he said, whatever the 315 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: delta of the Nile may have once been will only 316 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: be a shadow of what this alluvial plain of the 317 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 2: Mississippi will be. It will be the central point, the 318 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 2: garden spot of the North American continent where wealth and 319 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: prosperity culminate. This was in eighteen fifty seven, about the 320 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,199 Speaker 2: time that man really started to put his hand on 321 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: the river. Much of the Delta was still virgin wilderness 322 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 2: at that time, a lot of it. So this is 323 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 2: like the beginning, a look into the future of what 324 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 2: this land could be. And as I read that, that 325 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: doesn't sound like what the Delta became. 326 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 5: Well, you know the Delta, and again we're talking not 327 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 5: just when you say delta. People may think the Mississippi Delta, 328 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 5: technically the Yazu Mississippi Delta, but it really means a 329 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 5: much larger area. But that had that area has been, 330 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 5: you know, a tremendous agricultural producer, you know, whether or not, 331 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 5: obviously best known for cotton, but there's a lot more 332 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 5: than cotton. So I think in that sense, the prediction 333 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 5: you know, pretty much came true. In terms of poverty, 334 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 5: that's a different story. You know, you have some of 335 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 5: the greatest discrepancies anywhere in the country, and you know 336 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 5: some of those some of those counties, you know, are 337 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 5: among the poorest in the United States. The poverty, obviously 338 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 5: is a relic of slavery and the sharecrops system which 339 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 5: persisted after slavery, when a tremendous amount of exploitation of 340 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 5: African Americans, you know, the school systems didn't get the 341 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 5: same support that you know, white schools did, and so 342 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 5: forth and so on. 343 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: I just read the same quote to longtime Mississippi resident 344 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 2: Wilbert Primos, the one from eighteen fifty seven, and I 345 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: asked him if he thought the geologists prediction of the 346 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 2: Delta's success came true. 347 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 3: Here's what he said. 348 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 6: I think that it did. I mean, if you look 349 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 6: right before the Civil War, Natchez had more millionaires than 350 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 6: any city in the United States, all made from the 351 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,959 Speaker 6: Delta on the Louisiana side of Missippi side, agriculture, agriculture 352 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 6: the hardy South side. And of course slavery was a 353 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 6: huge part of that. And to understand that and how 354 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,719 Speaker 6: that came about, you know, it was to have cheap labor, 355 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 6: and then they were brought to the Delta to be 356 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 6: a part of that process. They even got Italians. That's 357 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 6: why there's so many Italian farmers from the Mississippi Delta now, 358 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 6: because they were brought over here. 359 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 2: From Italy to be the labor right to be sharecroppers. 360 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 2: In John Barry's book, it talks about how there were 361 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 2: in Italy. There were signs on however they were traveling 362 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 2: to get here by boat that said if you're going 363 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 2: to Mississippi or if you're going to Arkansas, basically you. 364 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 3: Should reconsider it's a trap. 365 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: It's a scam because they brought over all these Italians 366 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 2: that to be sharecroppers, and it was like a failure. 367 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 2: I mean, they were really mistreated and weren't the deal 368 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 2: wasn't as good as it should have been. But there's 369 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 2: still lots of Italian immigrants in the South. 370 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 6: That's right. And then living conditions were deplorable. 371 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,719 Speaker 2: For a long period of time before the Civil War, Natchez, 372 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: Mississippi claimed to have more millionaires per capita than anywhere 373 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 2: in the United States. That's a wild stat Here's Hank 374 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 2: describing a very unusual happening in Delta culture, one that 375 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 2: you might not expect. 376 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: But during this time, as these places were opened up 377 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: and these families were coming down here in Virginia, Kentucky, 378 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: South Carolina somewhat, if you may say, aristocratic families, that's 379 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: where they came from. That's what they'd been used to. 380 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: They'd build big houses, I don't like to call them 381 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: mansions into Delta, we call them big house. Every big 382 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: place had a big house. And in those big houses 383 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 1: you had libraries that were filled with Shakespeare, pros Keats, 384 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: all of these literary volume from all over the world 385 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: to teach people we used to having around, used to reading. 386 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: Most of those houses had music rooms filled with grand pianos, cellos, harpsichords. 387 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: The music that would be played in those during party time, 388 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: during social seasons was unbelievable. And because of that influence, 389 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: so to speak, there was a literary and artistic cultural 390 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: whether it was a revolution or just a happening that 391 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: was here. And the Percy family in Greenville, William Alexander 392 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 1: Percy was a poet, a world traveler, and his house 393 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: was filled with people from all over the world as 394 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: they traveled and knew him and would come in here 395 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: and visit with him, and sometimes they'd stay for a 396 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: year at a time. Some folks would come in and 397 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: stay and write whole books while they stayed at the 398 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: Percy matching which we called it in Greenville, Langston Hughes, 399 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: Carl Sandberg, Malvina Hoffman, who studied under all ghost re dain. 400 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 1: You had Walker Percy, Shelby foot hiding carters. You had 401 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: people from everywhere that gravitated in here that William Faulkner 402 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: would come stay. And from that influence, so to speak, 403 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: came an aura of literature, culture and all of this 404 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: artistic stuff that was being held right there. And at 405 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: one point in time, because of that, Greenville, Mississippi was 406 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: known to have more writers per capita than anywhere else 407 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 1: in America. Right out of the middle of Mississippi Delta. 408 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: These folks wouldn't be the owners of the planations and 409 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: all they wouldn't say all the time. 410 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 4: They couldn't. 411 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: It's too hot form, it was too full of mosquitoes, 412 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: the humidity. So they'd go back up Monteagle, Tennessee. They 413 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: go back up, can tell they go back home. No, 414 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: it were cool, and then they'd come back down. In 415 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: one time. They hunt a lot of them hunted. 416 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: Greenville, Mississippi, has been called the most southern place on Earth. 417 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 2: It was called the queen city of the Delta, and 418 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 2: in the first half of the twentieth century it had 419 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 2: more writers per capita than anywhere in the United States. Honestly, 420 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 2: there are a lot of writers in Mississippi today. Every 421 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 2: Turkey Hunter I know down there has published a book 422 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 2: that's a bit hyperbolic, but you get the point, and 423 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting. Hank mentioned a man by 424 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 2: the name of William Alexander Percy from Greenville. John Barry 425 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 2: actually devoted multiple chapters in this book. Rising tied to 426 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 2: the Percy family because of their influence in the Delta. 427 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 2: Charles Percy was known as the Gray Eagle. He was 428 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 2: a Civil War hero, and for just a minute, I 429 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 2: want to talk about the Civil War as we're building 430 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 2: up beside the of who these Percies were. They were important. 431 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 2: John Barry wrote chapters in this book about them. This 432 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 2: is important stuff. Grant and the Union Army blew up 433 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: the levees to defeat Vicksburg, flooding the town, and which 434 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 2: in big river country is a really low, almost unforgivable blow. 435 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 2: Many people in Vicksburg still talk about this today like 436 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 2: it happened yesterday. In Mark Twain's book Life on the Mississippi, 437 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 2: written in eighteen eighty three. 438 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 3: He talks about this very thing. 439 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 2: And I think all these little pieces of information give 440 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 2: us data points on understanding the South and this river. 441 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 3: Here's Mark Twain in the north one. 442 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: Here's the war mentioned in social conversation once a month, 443 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 2: sometimes as often as once a week. But the case 444 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 2: is very different in the South. There, every man you 445 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: meet was in the war, and every lady you met 446 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 2: saw the war. The war is a great chief topic 447 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: of conversation. The interest in it is vivid and constant. 448 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: The interest in other topics is fleeting. Mention of the 449 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 2: war will wake up a dull company and set their 450 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 2: tongues going when nearly any other topic would fail. In 451 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 2: the South, the war is what ad is. Elsewhere, they 452 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 2: date from it. All day long. You hear things placed 453 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 2: as having happened since the Wall and the Wall, or 454 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: before the war, or right after the war, or about 455 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: two years before the wall. It shows how intimately every 456 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 2: individual was visited in his own person by that tremendous episode. 457 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 2: It gives the inexperienced stranger a better idea of what 458 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 2: a vast and comprehensive calamity invasion is than he can 459 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 2: ever get by reading books. At the fireside at a 460 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 2: club one evening, a gentleman turned to me and said, 461 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: in an aside, you notice, of course, that we are 462 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 2: nearly always talking about the war. It isn't because we 463 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 2: haven't anything else to talk about, but because nothing else 464 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 2: has so strong an interest for us. 465 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 3: And there is another reason. In the war. 466 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 2: Each of us, in his own person seems to have 467 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 2: sampled all the different varieties of the human experience. And 468 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,479 Speaker 2: as a consequence, you can't mention an outside matter of 469 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: any sort, but it will certainly remind some listener of 470 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 2: something that happened during the war, and out he comes 471 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 2: with it. This gives some insight into the South's interest 472 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: in the war. And I think what Mark Twain said 473 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 2: is still accurate to some degree. 474 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 3: Today. 475 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: At a high level, wars are fought for economics, policy, 476 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 2: and ideology on the ground and in the trenches, though 477 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 2: war is very personal, and most who are fighting are 478 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 2: disconnected from the high level reasons of the bloodshed. Remember 479 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 2: what William Faulkner said, To understand the world, you must 480 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 2: understand a place like Mississippi. We're in pursuit on this here, 481 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:04,239 Speaker 2: bear grease poda cast to understand the world. Anyway, I 482 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 2: want to get back to the Percy family, you know, 483 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 2: that powerful family. And I want to say too that 484 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 2: I'm going to pronounce Leroy Percy's name the same way 485 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 2: that Hank Burdine does. You might read it and call 486 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 2: him Leroy Percy. Anyway, Leroy Percy reorganized the levee system 487 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: after the Civil War, which was a noble job, and 488 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,719 Speaker 2: with it came power. But also what gave him power 489 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 2: was cotton. Here is an excerpt from John Berry's book 490 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 2: Rising Tide. You should really check this book out. Two 491 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 2: thirds of the world's cotton supply came from the American South. 492 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: The river had made the Delta soil so lush that 493 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 2: without fertilizer, it produced far more than any other land did. 494 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 3: With fertilizer. 495 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 2: Even the black loam of Alabama often Delta yields doubled 496 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 2: and tripled that of other soils. Delta cotton for seas 497 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 2: of climate and soil even had some resistance to the 498 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 2: bowl weavil, which had entered Texas from Mexico in eighteen 499 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 2: ninety two and spread east at forty to seventy miles 500 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 2: a year, and was devastating the rest of the southern crop. 501 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 2: In the early nineteen hundreds, world textile manufacturers began to 502 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 2: fear a cotton famine. British and Northern investors poured evermore 503 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 2: cash into the Delta. Development required three things. Protection from 504 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 2: the river, transportation into the interior, and labor. Increasingly, labor 505 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 2: shortages were limiting the Delta's growth. No area of the 506 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: South was more short of labor than it in the South. 507 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 2: Of course, the issue of labor is inextricably bound up 508 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 2: with race. It was also inextricably linked to the society 509 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: the Percys intended to create. On the issue of labor, 510 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 2: the Percy family would play more of a role than 511 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 2: any other. Percy reorganized both the economic problems and the 512 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 2: need to accept a new order, and advocated a solution. 513 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 2: Planners had land but no cash. Blacks had labor but 514 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 2: no land. They resisted working in gangs under a foreman, 515 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 2: which smacked of slavery and overseers. So Percy, who understood 516 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 2: both the capital shortage and the importance of making labor 517 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 2: content in order to maximize efficiency, advocated sharecropping. One man 518 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: even credited Percy with inventing the system. In contemporaneous reports 519 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 2: in other states did attribute the system's beginnings to Mississippi. 520 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: Planners supplied the land, Blacks supplied the labor and gained 521 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 2: some independence. Profits were theoretically split fifty to fifty. 522 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 3: The cropper got more. 523 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 2: If he had his own mules, making blacks and white's 524 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 2: partners and, by implication, comparable, if not equal. However, abusive 525 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 2: sharecropping later became because of the systems implied partnership of 526 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 2: white and black. Acially, whites resisted it while blacks welcomed it. 527 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 2: The advocacy of sharecropping was not the only reflection of 528 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,879 Speaker 2: Percy's sensitivity to the inefficiencies of racial animosity. As reconstruction 529 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 2: dragged on, as the federal government became less and less 530 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 2: willing to support black rights with Army bayonets, Percy, like 531 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 2: most Southern white leaders, became increasingly aggressive in his efforts 532 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 2: to seize back power from the Republicans and Negroes, but 533 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 2: he did not want to frighten away either labor nor 534 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 2: northern investors. Elsewhere, across the South, Democrats took power by 535 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 2: murdering hundreds of blacks, including dozens in the Delta intimidating 536 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,760 Speaker 2: thousands away from the poles and perpetrating massive vote fraud. 537 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 2: But Percy prevented the klu Klux Klan from operating in 538 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 2: his own Washington County, and no murders were reported there. 539 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 2: On one occasion, Percy waded into a crowd to stop 540 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 2: the lynching of a black man accused of murdering white 541 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 2: Charles Percy, the Gray Eagle was attributed by some to 542 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 2: creating this idea of sharecropping, which became a big part 543 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 2: of the post Civil War South. 544 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,359 Speaker 3: Here's Hank Berdin. 545 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: As the Delta was being cleared and begun to be farmed. 546 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: This was after the Civil War, after emancipation. There was 547 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: no slavery, and there was labor. But who's gonna pay 548 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: the labor? How they gonna pay the label? You don't 549 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: have money in the cotton crop till you pick your cotton. 550 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: So there was a system that came up called sharecropping, 551 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: where and this black and white people would come in 552 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: and the owner of the place would give him a 553 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 1: house to live in, give him bout twenty seven acres 554 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,879 Speaker 1: of land to farm of that which had a little 555 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: garden on it. In the house area, they farmed normally 556 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: about twenty four twenty five acres. He and his family 557 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: was apply with the mule supply, with all the influence supplied, 558 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: with all the seed, fertilizers, whatever he needed, and he 559 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: had credit at the company's store at the commissary, so 560 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: all during the year he could get what he wanted, 561 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: what he needed to subside on. But he grew that 562 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: crop and he was in charge of that. And then 563 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: at the end of the year when it came down 564 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 1: picked cotton, and the cotton was picked and sold. Then 565 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: was didvy of day when you came in and the 566 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: bottle man gonna get his shef first, his cut, whatever 567 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: percentage that was. Then you took the indebtedness at the 568 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: store out and the rest of the debt on everything else, 569 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: and whatever was left over went to the sharecropping family. Now, 570 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: some years it wasn't bad. You had a good crop, 571 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: price of cotton was high. Mankind family could get by, 572 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: you know, and he had a place to live and 573 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: uh food to eat the whole time, wood to cut 574 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: for his one time heat. Then there was an instance 575 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: where that system could be abused by the guy sitting 576 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: behind the disc, you know, with his pencil I don't 577 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: think that happened as much as a lot of people 578 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: assume it may have, because you wanted good people on 579 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: your place, and you wanted them happy. You didn't want 580 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: them to get upset and leave, and then you hadn't 581 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: got anybody to play farm your cotton. 582 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 2: No matter which way you shake it, sharecropping was tough. 583 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 2: It certainly was abused, and other times it worked as 584 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 2: it was supposed to. In eighteen eighty eight, Charles the 585 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 2: Great Eagle died at the age of fifty three, but 586 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 2: his son le Roy Percy orn in eighteen sixty took 587 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 2: up the family's empire building Mantle. The Roy Percy owned 588 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 2: the twenty thousand acre Trail Lake Plantation near Greenville. This 589 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 2: is complicated, but he grew up with and would be 590 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 2: a lifelong friend of the bear hunter Hulk Collier, who 591 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 2: was the former slave of his foll Leroy became a 592 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 2: friend of President Theodore Roosevelt after becoming the Mississippi Senator 593 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 2: and invited Roosevelt to bear hunt and Mississippi with Holt. 594 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 2: You guys, remember that that's when the Teddy Bear was created. 595 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 3: That's a wild story. 596 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 2: Le Roy once gave his eleven year old son a 597 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 2: rifle as a gift. Tragically, in nineteen oh two, another 598 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 2: child accidentally shot and killed the boy. The Percys weren't 599 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 2: immune to the tragedy that strikes all men. Here's an 600 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 2: excerpt about le Roy Percy from Rising Tide. Le Roy 601 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 2: Percy had a clear conception of the society he intended 602 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 2: to build. 603 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 3: It would be a. 604 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 2: Great agricultural factory that chested its way into the forefront 605 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 2: of the New South, more humane than in every bit 606 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,320 Speaker 2: as efficient as the textile mills in North Carolina or 607 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 2: the coal mines in Alabama. It would have rich and 608 00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:00,320 Speaker 2: poor and little middle but it would provide opportunity. It 609 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 2: would be a place in which a superior civilization might flourish. 610 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 2: And although Percy was not burdened by sentimentality, he expected 611 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 2: the society to adhere to a code of honor. If 612 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 2: ruled by an elite, that elite would take care of 613 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 2: its less fortunate members. This is kind of hard to 614 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 2: believe based upon the general frequency coming out of the 615 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 2: South in this era, but for a period of time, 616 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 2: the Mississippi side of the Delta was a kind of 617 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 2: oasis for blacks, and much of it had to do 618 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,399 Speaker 2: with Leroy Percy, who would advocate for blacks in the 619 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 2: height of the Jim Crow era. This isn't historical revision 620 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 2: written by those wanting to smooth over the past. This 621 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 2: is from John Berry's book, and I've read it in 622 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:54,360 Speaker 2: many other places. Leroy made sure blacks in Greenville were policemen, mailmen, 623 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,800 Speaker 2: and justices of the peace. He advocated for them getting 624 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 2: loans and owning land. On March first, nineteen twenty two, 625 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 2: Leroy Percy had a public debate with organizers of the 626 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 2: KKK who wished to legally enter Washington County, Mississippi. He 627 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 2: was quoted in newspapers across the country saying, friends, let 628 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 2: this clan go somewhere else where. It will not do 629 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,399 Speaker 2: the harm that it will in this community. Let them 630 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 2: sow dissension in some community less united than ours. I 631 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 2: want to read another section from Rising Tide. 632 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:32,760 Speaker 3: You gotta get this book. 633 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,320 Speaker 2: The Delta did offer blacks at least relative promise. 634 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 3: Judge Robert R. 635 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 2: Taylor of Indiana, a member of the Mississippi River Commission, 636 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 2: pointed out that levies, by allowing the mining of the 637 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 2: river's wealth, also allowed quote the Negro to better his 638 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 2: condition in considerable and increasing numbers. He is buying land 639 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 2: and becoming an independent cultivator. Nowhere else in the South 640 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 2: are as favorable opportunities offered to the black man as 641 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 2: in the reclaimed Mississippi Lowlands, and nowhere else is he 642 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 2: doing as much for his own uplifting. Percy and the 643 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 2: men with him whom he dominated the region in particularly 644 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 2: Washington County, did create something special, at least given the times. 645 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 2: Largely because of Percy, who was on the board of 646 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 2: one bank and influence others. Lenders did not hesitate to 647 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 2: offer black's mortgages, and nineteen hundred blacks owned two thirds 648 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 2: of all Delta farms, probably the highest proportion of black 649 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 2: land ownership in the country. Also largely because of Percy, 650 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,720 Speaker 2: Greenville had black policeman, a black Justice of the Peace, 651 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 2: and every mailman in the city was black. In nineteen thirteen, 652 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 2: the Census Bureau concluded that the plantation organization was quote 653 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 2: more firmly fixed in the Yazoo Mississippi Delta than any 654 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 2: other area of the South, but even sharecropping could offer opportunity. 655 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 2: Alfred Stone founded an agricultural experiment station to develop a 656 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,240 Speaker 2: better cot and as a social scientist, kept meticulous records 657 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 2: of his settlements with his sharecroppers. In nineteen oh one, 658 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 2: the average family on his plantation cleared one thousand dollars 659 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,720 Speaker 2: after all expenses were deducted, and in nineteen oh three 660 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,360 Speaker 2: they cleared roughly seven hundred dollars. The Mississippi outside the 661 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 2: Delta was contrasted sharply with this picture. There whites were 662 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,919 Speaker 2: driving blacks off the land, burning their barns, whipping them, 663 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 2: forcing them to sell at a loss, murdering them, and 664 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 2: one Mississippi county, three hundred and nine men, including the sheriff, 665 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 2: were indicted. Some towns bragged that they were inward free. 666 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:45,320 Speaker 2: More important was an outbreak of lynchings of almost incomprehensible viciousness. 667 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 2: What Percy created in his Washington County and much of 668 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,279 Speaker 2: the wider Delta was kind of wild. But then in 669 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 2: other parts of the South, all the stuff that a 670 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 2: lot of us have heard about was absolutely going on. 671 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 2: But Percy and his motivations, however, were more pragmatic than 672 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 2: one might hope. In a speech, he also stated that 673 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 2: if all the blacks left, the economy would plummet. Charles 674 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 2: Percy LeRoy's father had distributed tens of thousands of a 675 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 2: pamphlet titled The Call of an Alluvial Empire, which spoke 676 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 2: of the potential prosperity of the Delta. The Percys were 677 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 2: ruthless pragmatists, and they were set on building this alluvial empire, 678 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,279 Speaker 2: and it required labor. One governor, who was advised to 679 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,720 Speaker 2: put the Percys in their place, said quote, you cannot 680 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 2: conciliate them and retain your self respect. They demand nothing 681 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,360 Speaker 2: short of the earth. These guys knew how to wild power, 682 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,240 Speaker 2: and this labor thing had been a problem since. 683 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:48,800 Speaker 3: The Civil War. 684 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 2: Leroy Percy was dead set on not recruiting the poor 685 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 2: whites from the hill country of Georgia and Alabama, who 686 00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 2: were problematic and prone to make racial issues worse. It's 687 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:05,320 Speaker 2: interesting that the KKK was primarily lower income, marginalized whites. 688 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 2: The Klan did well with this group because they rallied 689 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 2: around two common enemies, one below them the blacks, and 690 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 2: an enemy above them, the Establishment, which they perceived to 691 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 2: be run by wealthy Jews. In nineteen twenty, the KKK 692 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 2: had three million members and they called themselves the Invisible 693 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,760 Speaker 2: Empire and they weren't even primarily based in the South. 694 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 2: Between nineteen fifteen and nineteen forty four, here are the 695 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 2: top ten states with the highest KKK membership Indiana, Ohio, Texas, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Oklahoma, 696 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 2: New York, Michigan, Georgia, New Jersey, and Florida. 697 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:48,720 Speaker 3: That's wild. 698 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 2: Prior to Leroy Percy, delta planters had recruited even Chinese 699 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 2: laborers from Hong Kong, and at one time there were 700 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 2: over fifty Chinese grocery store in Greenville, Mississippi alone. Do 701 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 2: you remember when Holt Collier used to make the kids 702 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 2: go buy them an orange pop and a plug a 703 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 2: tobacco from the Chinese store before he would tell them 704 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:16,319 Speaker 2: a story that was in Greenville. The Chinese didn't work out, 705 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,400 Speaker 2: so around nineteen hundred, Percy himself went to Italy to 706 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 2: recruit workers and hire labor agents. They would bring over 707 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 2: thousands of Italians and have them work as sharecroppers on 708 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 2: delta plantations. The experiment failed miserably. The people felt cheated 709 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,920 Speaker 2: and misled, and the Italian government even got involved, warning 710 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 2: their citizens not to go to Mississippi or Arkansas. I 711 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:45,279 Speaker 2: think I'm beginning to understand Faulkner's quote about the complex 712 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 2: social issues of this place. Here's another excerpt from John 713 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 2: Berry's book Rising Tide about Lebroy Percy. In the meantime, 714 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,080 Speaker 2: his views on race were as progressive as those of 715 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 2: any mainstream figure in the nation. Percy began his speech 716 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 2: with the observation quote the statement is daily heard that 717 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,880 Speaker 2: education ruins the negro. I denied that any man is 718 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 2: rendered worse by having his intelligence quickened. 719 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 3: End of quote. It was a long speech. 720 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 2: It affirmed the moral reasons for educating blacks and treating 721 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,880 Speaker 2: them fairly and honestly, including the fact that abusing blacks 722 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 2: corrupted whites. Percy was an interesting character. When we apply 723 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 2: the values of today to his life, you could find 724 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,879 Speaker 2: much error in his doctrine. But he was doing more 725 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 2: than anybody else in the region at the time. In 726 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,319 Speaker 2: summarizing the story in the most simplistic way, the Roy 727 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 2: Percy would never see his alluvial empire come to fruition, 728 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,840 Speaker 2: john Berry said. In nineteen oh three, Mississippi elected James K. Vardemann, 729 00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,719 Speaker 2: the great White Chief Governor. He was the first man 730 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 2: in Mississippi to realize, in the sense of making real 731 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 2: the politics of race hatred. 732 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:07,320 Speaker 3: End of quote. 733 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 2: Percy viewed Vardaman as pure evil who was going to 734 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,839 Speaker 2: drive blacks out of the South. Vardaman would help set 735 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 2: the tone for the next seventy years of politics in 736 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,760 Speaker 2: the state and in the South. Huge amounts of Blacks 737 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,279 Speaker 2: would leave the South for good. The Roy Percy would 738 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 2: be engaged in this fight his entire life, and his 739 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 2: son William Alexander Percy or will Percy, would inherit it. 740 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 2: Will's name will come up later when we talk about 741 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,359 Speaker 2: the flood of nineteen twenty seven. This series is going 742 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,440 Speaker 2: to wind like an alluvial river, but in the end 743 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,560 Speaker 2: we'll have a greater understanding of the river its influence 744 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,480 Speaker 2: in the people of the Delta. I want to introduce 745 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,280 Speaker 2: you to a dear friend of the Newcombe family, mister 746 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,719 Speaker 2: Earl Jasper, who was born in Pine Bluff on the 747 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,360 Speaker 2: Arkansas side of the Delta in nineteen fifty two. I 748 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 2: want to hear his story of groy up as a 749 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,919 Speaker 2: black man in the Delta. It's one thing to read 750 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,759 Speaker 2: about it in a book. It's another thing to hear 751 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:11,319 Speaker 2: the voice of a man, the ultimate primary source, a 752 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,120 Speaker 2: man who lived there. Meet mister Earl. 753 00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:21,919 Speaker 4: My grandfather, Avery Jasper. He should have been born right 754 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 4: after slavery ended. His father Sanders. Yeah, I'm naming the 755 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,120 Speaker 4: name because I keep up with the family history stuff. 756 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:37,960 Speaker 4: Sanders Sanders Jasper was into slavery. In other words, the 757 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,840 Speaker 4: Jaspers that come to Southeast Arkansas came from South Carolina 758 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:48,600 Speaker 4: in Virginia and came right after slavery. That's when our 759 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:57,040 Speaker 4: family patriarch migrated to Arkansas, Southeast Arkansas, and it was 760 00:48:58,320 --> 00:48:59,520 Speaker 4: not a good experience. 761 00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:01,680 Speaker 2: Why didn't they come here? 762 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,240 Speaker 4: They wanted to get out of the South Carolina in Virginia, 763 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,600 Speaker 4: moving west, hoping for something better. 764 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,800 Speaker 2: The universal reason for human migration is hoping for something better. 765 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,360 Speaker 2: It's in our DNA. It's what made people cross the 766 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,160 Speaker 2: Bury in land Bridge. It's what made the Pilgrims cross 767 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,680 Speaker 2: the Atlantic. It's what made Boone go into Kentucky. It's 768 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,560 Speaker 2: what made Crockett go to Texas. I want to learn 769 00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,240 Speaker 2: about mister Earle's early life. 770 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,160 Speaker 4: Okay. I was born August twelfth, nineteen fifty two, in 771 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:39,360 Speaker 4: Lincoln County. It's between Pine Bluff and Dumas, are between 772 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:44,880 Speaker 4: Dumas and Star City in that particular area. And I 773 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:50,320 Speaker 4: was born on the plantation because it wasn't an incorporated area. 774 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,319 Speaker 4: It was out in the country and my parents were 775 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:59,960 Speaker 4: sharecroppers and then became just plantation workers after the farming 776 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 4: went south and everything, and my childhood in Southeast Arkansas. 777 00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:11,319 Speaker 4: In the South during the fifties, it was a lot 778 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:12,399 Speaker 4: of outdoor time. 779 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:13,680 Speaker 1: You know. 780 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:19,280 Speaker 4: Now people pay guides and whatnot to go find game 781 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:25,279 Speaker 4: and look for sports. It was existence. The grown ups 782 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,320 Speaker 4: went tons for food. 783 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:28,239 Speaker 1: You know. 784 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,760 Speaker 2: So you remember your dad going hunting. 785 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,200 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, well, my uncle and a big brother and 786 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:39,440 Speaker 4: whatnot that they went hunting, and you know, it was 787 00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,640 Speaker 4: unusual for them to bring home a rabbit. I know 788 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:47,000 Speaker 4: this may sound so dreadful to the twenty twenty three crowd. 789 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,480 Speaker 4: You know, I get it. I get it, but you 790 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,600 Speaker 4: have to be there to understand it. And yeah, they 791 00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:59,480 Speaker 4: went hunting and all type of games, ducks, raccoon, squirrels, 792 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 4: all us stuff that people hunt now. And it was 793 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 4: for a meal. I mean, I know, it's unbelievable that 794 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:12,120 Speaker 4: someone really had to get their next meal from going 795 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,320 Speaker 4: out and hunting. I know that some of the older 796 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,920 Speaker 4: ones that looked at the Beaverly Hillbillies and saw Granny 797 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,839 Speaker 4: and Jed and them and all that funny stuff. That 798 00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:26,719 Speaker 4: was a sort of like it wasn't as funny, but 799 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,919 Speaker 4: it was. That's the way it was. That's the way 800 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,960 Speaker 4: it was in the delta. You worked all the time 801 00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,000 Speaker 4: until it got where the crop was in and whatnot, 802 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,280 Speaker 4: and then you had to survive so many months until 803 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 4: work time come again. 804 00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,640 Speaker 2: These people were truly connected to the land through farming 805 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:47,320 Speaker 2: and hunting. 806 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,000 Speaker 3: This was a way of life. 807 00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:55,960 Speaker 4: When I was a child, my parents they were farmers themselves. 808 00:51:56,160 --> 00:52:00,399 Speaker 4: They had for the acres they had the land or 809 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:04,200 Speaker 4: amount of land. They would have to borrow money from 810 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:09,200 Speaker 4: certain larger farmers and whatnot, and to make a crop. 811 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,839 Speaker 4: And then after a certain length of time, so many 812 00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,920 Speaker 4: crops you failed, you would lose it and you would 813 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:21,200 Speaker 4: have to start working for someone else. And that's how 814 00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,800 Speaker 4: the sharecropper went down to just general or labor on 815 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,799 Speaker 4: a farm. You have so many bad crops and you 816 00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 4: can't repay your loan, and they call in alone and 817 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,080 Speaker 4: and so they'll take the land and and you you'll 818 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,520 Speaker 4: stay there, but you won't own it anymore. You'll be 819 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,759 Speaker 4: working for the people that loan you the money for 820 00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,800 Speaker 4: so many years to do that and when I was small, 821 00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:49,759 Speaker 4: I was born in the country out from a hospital, 822 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,960 Speaker 4: and that's all I knew growing up was farming. They 823 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,760 Speaker 4: wasn't sharecropping necessarily. Once I got to be in high school. 824 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,720 Speaker 4: They were just general farm hand. 825 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,839 Speaker 2: To understand the economic progression of mister Earle's family when 826 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:09,480 Speaker 2: he was young, they were sharecropping, which offered some independence 827 00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:11,840 Speaker 2: and in a favorable year, some income. 828 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:13,080 Speaker 3: This was good. 829 00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,279 Speaker 2: However, they lost their farm and had to work on 830 00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:20,719 Speaker 2: a plantation as laborers, which had little economic future other 831 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:21,880 Speaker 2: than subsistence. 832 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:30,520 Speaker 4: Growing up, like I said, during the spring, when you know, 833 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,520 Speaker 4: it was cotten keen cotton. You know in the South 834 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,800 Speaker 4: when we got out of school, they called it horn cotten, 835 00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,400 Speaker 4: but we called it chopping cotten, you know, grassing it 836 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:46,440 Speaker 4: and whatnot. That was a regular routine, just like kids 837 00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:51,040 Speaker 4: now going get a job at McDonald's whatnot. We was 838 00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,000 Speaker 4: going to the fields when school was out in May 839 00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,920 Speaker 4: that Friday. We would go to the field that Monday 840 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:01,359 Speaker 4: and we would work it on tea when the kitten 841 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,120 Speaker 4: got to a certain height. They wouldn't have to do 842 00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,719 Speaker 4: certain things. They didn't have all the chemicals and big 843 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,920 Speaker 4: equipment to spread and stuff like they do now. So 844 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,040 Speaker 4: once about around July the fourth, the kind be too 845 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:16,520 Speaker 4: big to chop and then that's when we'll take a break. 846 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,319 Speaker 2: Did your family sing in the fields like you hear 847 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:20,759 Speaker 2: people talk about a. 848 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:25,000 Speaker 4: Lot of that stuff is Hollywood dramatic, But they wasn't 849 00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,839 Speaker 4: moaning and groaning and complaining because that's just the way 850 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:33,720 Speaker 4: it was. And it was some singing, but all the time, 851 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,040 Speaker 4: not in the field I was in, and I went 852 00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,080 Speaker 4: to a lot of fields during the time, But you 853 00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,919 Speaker 4: didn't have people full of anger about what was going 854 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:51,439 Speaker 4: on because of their faith, faith, family and community. That's 855 00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,160 Speaker 4: what kept stuff moving forward. 856 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,800 Speaker 2: So you were raised on a farm, went to school 857 00:54:58,120 --> 00:54:59,839 Speaker 2: at a public school. 858 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,520 Speaker 4: Gated school until about my sophomore year. 859 00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:04,880 Speaker 2: What happened then. 860 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,120 Speaker 4: They integrated graded school system. 861 00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,920 Speaker 2: Had did your school move? Where did did new students 862 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:14,160 Speaker 2: come into your school? 863 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,799 Speaker 4: The way that worked? They had freedom of choice as 864 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,480 Speaker 4: they called it, and uh, in Lincoln County you had well, 865 00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,640 Speaker 4: I think you had four different schools. When you had 866 00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,799 Speaker 4: the freedom of choice, the parents had the choice to 867 00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:32,319 Speaker 4: let their black student go to the white school. And yeah, 868 00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,120 Speaker 4: the white kids could have went to the black but 869 00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,359 Speaker 4: we know that wasn't going to happen, and that's what 870 00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,120 Speaker 4: did it was. It was freedom of choice, I think 871 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:41,879 Speaker 4: for a couple of years. And then when it went 872 00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:46,200 Speaker 4: force integration as they called it, when they just combine 873 00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,360 Speaker 4: the two schools together. I think when I was a 874 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,319 Speaker 4: senior in high school, that was the first year it 875 00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:56,799 Speaker 4: went all the way just graded the black and the 876 00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,640 Speaker 4: white school went together as one. I think I was 877 00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:00,720 Speaker 4: a senior in high school. 878 00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:01,840 Speaker 3: What was that like for you? 879 00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:06,480 Speaker 2: Oh? Boy? 880 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,839 Speaker 4: What was that like? It was fights every day. It 881 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:16,600 Speaker 4: wasn't a good atmosphere. It wasn't good. But for the 882 00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:18,759 Speaker 4: most part, a lot of kids taking it in it 883 00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:23,680 Speaker 4: strive because that's just the way it was. It wasn't 884 00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,240 Speaker 4: It wasn't good at all, not for a lot of kids. 885 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:33,720 Speaker 4: And you had white flight, which was not unusual. And 886 00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:38,240 Speaker 4: the ones who stayed had to endure attitudes of certain 887 00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,600 Speaker 4: teachers that did not want to teach you. And so 888 00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:45,799 Speaker 4: it was an experience that I would not want my 889 00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:46,920 Speaker 4: child to go through. 890 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,040 Speaker 2: How did you How did you handle that, Cheryl? Did 891 00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:54,720 Speaker 2: it cause you to become more insulated? Did it cause 892 00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,080 Speaker 2: you to become more vocal and outspoken? Did it cause 893 00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:02,200 Speaker 2: you to kind of retreat advance, or like, how did 894 00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:03,640 Speaker 2: you serve? How did you survive that? 895 00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,520 Speaker 4: All the above? You had to You couldn't be one dimensional. 896 00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,600 Speaker 4: You had to adjust to what was going on and 897 00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:16,120 Speaker 4: being respectful. You had to be respectful or else. That 898 00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,960 Speaker 4: was sort of difficult being respectful for people who really 899 00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:24,680 Speaker 4: didn't have your best interest at heart. But your parents said, 900 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,120 Speaker 4: I don't want to have to come to the school 901 00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,760 Speaker 4: for any reason because of your attitude, and we knew 902 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:35,600 Speaker 4: they meant business. Deal with it. It's going to work out, okay. 903 00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:41,600 Speaker 4: Once again, faith, family and community help keep you grounded, 904 00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,920 Speaker 4: help keep your mind straight, and kept you to the 905 00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,200 Speaker 4: point where you said, Okay, this is where there is 906 00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:48,920 Speaker 4: right now, and you won't have to deal with this 907 00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,960 Speaker 4: always just stay focused. 908 00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:57,120 Speaker 2: Just stay focused. I knew mister Earle was involved in 909 00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:59,720 Speaker 2: the civil rights movement, and I asked him when he 910 00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:03,120 Speaker 2: first knew that he had to take action. This is 911 00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:04,000 Speaker 2: what he said. 912 00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:09,280 Speaker 4: As soon as MLK was assassinated and and whatnot. That 913 00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,480 Speaker 4: had a traumatic effect on us. That we were seniors 914 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,480 Speaker 4: at the time in high school and. 915 00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:18,720 Speaker 3: You remember the remember where were you at? 916 00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,320 Speaker 4: If I'm not mistaken, I was at home with my 917 00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,360 Speaker 4: mother because it was a news flash. They don't call 918 00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:29,280 Speaker 4: a new flash back then, with the breaking news that 919 00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,720 Speaker 4: Martin Luther King Jr. Was just shot in Memphis, Tennessee, 920 00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:41,080 Speaker 4: and you talking about shockwave in the black community. It 921 00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:47,040 Speaker 4: was pouring down of emotions, all kind of emotions at 922 00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:51,880 Speaker 4: the time. And the adults, you know, back then, you 923 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,680 Speaker 4: didn't go into present of adults listening what the conversation 924 00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:56,640 Speaker 4: were because you were a child. 925 00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:57,560 Speaker 1: You know. 926 00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,880 Speaker 4: So they was talking and talking. But I was a 927 00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:04,080 Speaker 4: teenager at the time, so I was pretty much knew 928 00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:08,160 Speaker 4: what were going on. And so fast forwarded when they 929 00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:12,680 Speaker 4: wanna make MLK a legal holiday, and of course the 930 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:17,240 Speaker 4: administration that our school wasn't g gonna be supportive of 931 00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:21,160 Speaker 4: us wanna stay out of school to honor that day. 932 00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:25,920 Speaker 4: And so the seniors, all of us, we said, Okay, 933 00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,200 Speaker 4: this is the day they they are doing it, and 934 00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,120 Speaker 4: this is the day we're not gonna come to school. 935 00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,320 Speaker 4: They can just do what they have to do forever 936 00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,640 Speaker 4: for that day, cause we were gonna graduate anyway. So, uh, 937 00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:38,920 Speaker 4: they would let you out of deer hunting, but they 938 00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:42,880 Speaker 4: wouldn't honor what we was tryna do. So we said 939 00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:46,280 Speaker 4: we'd take a deer day but that wasn't too good 940 00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,520 Speaker 4: because they knew what we were trying to do. Anyway, 941 00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,280 Speaker 4: that's what we gonna do, cause that's how important it 942 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:56,280 Speaker 4: is to us to honor his legacy by trying to 943 00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:58,760 Speaker 4: show that we support that it need to be a 944 00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:02,640 Speaker 4: national holiday, and at that particular time, it's sort of 945 01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,400 Speaker 4: spring boarder from there. I was the president of the PTA, 946 01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:10,600 Speaker 4: and I was the president of the local NAACP for 947 01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:14,280 Speaker 4: Lincoln County for years, and we had a lot of 948 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,520 Speaker 4: different issues and whatnot in the Southeast as well as 949 01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,720 Speaker 4: the state of Arkansas. That's just some of the things 950 01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:27,880 Speaker 4: in the NOMI National Alliance, Mental Illness that I little rock, 951 01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,320 Speaker 4: and disability to rights. I was the president of the 952 01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,320 Speaker 4: board of both of those because those issues was important 953 01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:39,120 Speaker 4: to my community. Important to me also everything that affected 954 01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:42,680 Speaker 4: my family and my community in my church, I wanted 955 01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:44,000 Speaker 4: to be a part of it. 956 01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:46,840 Speaker 3: Mister Earl is a man of action. 957 01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:50,600 Speaker 2: To give a short summary of his personal history, he 958 01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:53,960 Speaker 2: graduated from high school in nineteen seventy, went to college 959 01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,360 Speaker 2: for a year, and then went to work for the 960 01:00:56,480 --> 01:01:00,200 Speaker 2: railroad in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, in nineteen seventy two, and 961 01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,240 Speaker 2: he worked there until he retired in nineteen ninety seven. 962 01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,160 Speaker 2: I asked mister Earle how he could best help someone 963 01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,320 Speaker 2: understand what it was like growing up in the Delta. 964 01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:15,800 Speaker 4: He had an answer, it's hard for if you haven't 965 01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:25,000 Speaker 4: to answer your question, mister Nukelem. It's like males trying 966 01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:28,640 Speaker 4: to understand what it is to have a baby. You 967 01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:32,960 Speaker 4: really have to be all in it to understand it. 968 01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:39,080 Speaker 4: So to really understand, what I'm trying to say is 969 01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:43,960 Speaker 4: you have to be black to really understand it. And 970 01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:48,360 Speaker 4: that's not in a backhand way of trying to do 971 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:53,280 Speaker 4: anything except just it's hard to understand because when you 972 01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:56,479 Speaker 4: try to understand, you going to run across somebody who 973 01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:00,520 Speaker 4: might say, man, you can't believe that. But if I've 974 01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:04,160 Speaker 4: never been white, so I can't understand how it is 975 01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:09,160 Speaker 4: to be white when it comes to certain things in society. 976 01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,760 Speaker 4: But when it comes to being a human being, we 977 01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:18,240 Speaker 4: right on time. If you need oxygen, so do I. 978 01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:20,840 Speaker 4: If your hard beat so many times a minute, so 979 01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:26,760 Speaker 4: do minds. So human beings we together. Now when this 980 01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:31,680 Speaker 4: different treatment come, that's when we start losing one another. 981 01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:38,760 Speaker 4: But in general, your listeners, the Arkansas Delta is a 982 01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:44,919 Speaker 4: great place to live. What I would like for your listeners, 983 01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,120 Speaker 4: the ones that are trying to wrap their mind around 984 01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,480 Speaker 4: growing up in the Delta back in the fifties, is 985 01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:57,560 Speaker 4: that the black kids wanted the same thing that the 986 01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:02,120 Speaker 4: white kids wanted. They wanted opportunity. They wanted to be free, 987 01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:06,840 Speaker 4: They wanted to not be looked and watch everywhere they 988 01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:11,640 Speaker 4: went with a different perspective of mindset about who's doing 989 01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:17,880 Speaker 4: the watching. All the black kids wanted was to have fun, 990 01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:24,120 Speaker 4: like or everyone else. We had white friends down there, 991 01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:29,520 Speaker 4: We did until integration came and they got with their friends, 992 01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:34,600 Speaker 4: and then we saw whom Something changed when integration came 993 01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:41,000 Speaker 4: and you got around your white friends, and we understood it. 994 01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:43,960 Speaker 4: We wasn't being out of shape about it because we 995 01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:46,919 Speaker 4: knew that's the way it worked. You okay to play 996 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,880 Speaker 4: with us when we away from school, but when you 997 01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,240 Speaker 4: come to school, I'm not gonna even speak to you 998 01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,320 Speaker 4: the same kids we've been playing with all the time, 999 01:03:55,360 --> 01:04:00,000 Speaker 4: because every plantation had just about white kids, white fans 1000 01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:04,400 Speaker 4: and whatnot. But growing up, that's one of the things 1001 01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,520 Speaker 4: that I would like for your viewers, your listeners to 1002 01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:12,200 Speaker 4: understand is that there wasn't the only difference in the 1003 01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:16,280 Speaker 4: white kids in the black kids. Was their skin color 1004 01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:20,920 Speaker 4: both you cut them. They believe red blood. They may 1005 01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:25,560 Speaker 4: have different ethnic values when they come to religious belief 1006 01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:30,400 Speaker 4: and whatnot. And they wanted to have something in life. 1007 01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,680 Speaker 4: Those kids did not want to have to leave the 1008 01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:36,080 Speaker 4: state of Arkansas to be able to get a job 1009 01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:39,960 Speaker 4: or to be able to get a loan to buy 1010 01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:45,400 Speaker 4: a house or buy a car. And we wanted to 1011 01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:52,200 Speaker 4: be treated just like everybody else, no special, but no less. 1012 01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:56,600 Speaker 2: What do you think the answer is to the problems 1013 01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:57,760 Speaker 2: that are in the depth of the day. 1014 01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:06,120 Speaker 4: Collaboration, commitment by the power to be the help and 1015 01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:13,560 Speaker 4: really trying to help everyone. Equal treatment to all citizens 1016 01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,320 Speaker 4: from the one that's supposed to be doing it would 1017 01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:25,240 Speaker 4: change the delta physical dynamics and loving as we say 1018 01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:31,000 Speaker 4: we are as Christians, would change the spiritual. That would 1019 01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:34,640 Speaker 4: change it because you dealing every day with the physical 1020 01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:38,760 Speaker 4: delta person and the spiritual delta person. And believe me, 1021 01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:42,960 Speaker 4: that spiritual has to be strong to survive with the 1022 01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:46,280 Speaker 4: physical dynamics. That's what's going on. And that's the reason 1023 01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,280 Speaker 4: why I keep going back to the church, the family 1024 01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:53,560 Speaker 4: in the community, because those three they make one complete family. Dynamics. 1025 01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:10,520 Speaker 2: I think those are wise words, maybe wiser than the 1026 01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:14,680 Speaker 2: academics and politicians and high dollar think tanks who set 1027 01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,160 Speaker 2: out to solve the problems of the Delta. 1028 01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:19,720 Speaker 3: And there are many of those, many many. 1029 01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:23,320 Speaker 2: I counted a great privilege to sit with mister Earle 1030 01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:25,880 Speaker 2: and hear the story of his life. 1031 01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:26,600 Speaker 3: I had a. 1032 01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:31,000 Speaker 2: Feeling that the story of this great river would be surprising, enlightening, 1033 01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:35,520 Speaker 2: and humbling, all in the same current, and I think 1034 01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,760 Speaker 2: that's what's happening. We've got a lot of topics yet 1035 01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:42,320 Speaker 2: to cover, like the river's fishery, the history of taming 1036 01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:46,280 Speaker 2: this river, and even the blues. We've got a long 1037 01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:49,960 Speaker 2: ways to go. I can't thank you enough for listening 1038 01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:53,520 Speaker 2: to Bear Greas. We're putting our heart and soul into 1039 01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:55,360 Speaker 2: these episodes, and I. 1040 01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:57,080 Speaker 3: Really appreciate you listening. 1041 01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:00,360 Speaker 2: Please share our podcast with a friend this week, and 1042 01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,800 Speaker 2: I look forward to talking with everyone on the Bear 1043 01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:04,720 Speaker 2: Grease Ring