WEBVTT - Parental Alienation: When Your Child is Turned Against You 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.720 Hey Fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.080 Red Table Pop podcast. All your favorite episodes from the 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:10.239 facebook watch show in audio produced by Westbrook audio and 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:13.360 I heart radio. Please don't forget to rate and review 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:19.200 on Apple podcasts. There's a silent epidemic destroying families. It's 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:23.520 called Parental Alien Nation, when a parent viciously turns their 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:27.200 child against the other parents. Over twenty two million families 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:30.960 are going through it, including ours. This is really personal 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.600 to us. I'm any race. You're an a race cousin. 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:39.360 For the first time, legendary music producer Teddy Riley reveals 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.440 why he hasn't seen his son in three years. What's 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:45.360 going on with your son now? She didn't speak to 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.440 her father for nearly a decade. There was always he's 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:52.520 not good for you, he's selfish, he abandoned you. Now 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:54.960 they're at the table. She sent a message that said 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.600 you're nothing to me, don't ever reach out to me together. 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:02.080 What made you give away your par a? All Right, kids, 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.679 we actually have your ex wife who has agreed to 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.880 join our conversation. I need to start out with a kid, 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.560 a wake up call for parents everywhere. Learn from our mistakes. 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:20.880 Here we are. We go back at the table. Yes, 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:25.600 I'm chipping around in these. I'm just making sure you 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:32.039 are right. This is gonna be a really interesting table today. Yeah, 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:38.480 there's a silent epidemic gripping families apart. It's called parental alienation, 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.400 when a parent viciously turns their child against the other parent. 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.800 Whether you are familiar with the term or not, chances 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.640 are you or someone you know is going through it. 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:52.760 I know so many people that are going through it 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:56.400 right now and it is terrible. We've had to deal 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:00.360 with it in a family and this person and made 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.640 a decision that she didn't want her child to be 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:05.640 a part of our family, and it was. It was 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.200 devastating and we don't even know why. We don't even 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:12.200 know what happened. I think what people don't realize is 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:16.040 that when you make the decision to alienate one of 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:20.720 the parents, typically you're going to alienate the whole family. 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:26.959 I'm an erased aunt, you're an erased cousin, there's erased grandparents, 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:31.360 but the whole family suffers, including the child, because now 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:35.040 the child doesn't know that for a family. You know, 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.919 I just had an intense therapy session and I called 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.679 you last weekend and I was like, why did you 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.240 let me? Still I have a relation with my father, 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:51.040 considering like he was not well, you know what I mean? 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:56.400 He never paid a day a child support. Really, in 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:00.040 this circumstance, he didn't have anything. There wasn't anything for 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:01.400 him to give. So what are you going to go 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.400 to court and battle for? The unwellness was an addiction 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:09.639 and I just also figured like at some point in time, 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:14.279 if he got himself together, it should be Jada's decision 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.240 what relationship she had with her father. I didn't want 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:21.520 to bog her down with all of our nonsense. So 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:25.280 I give you prop scam because it's hard. It's hard 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.080 not to. I feel like if I had experienced some 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.240 of the stuff that you experienced with my mom's dad, 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:32.760 I would be thinking, is it best for the kid 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.040 to be around a person who would do this? But 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:39.840 Jada's dad was not a bad guy. He was bad 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:44.120 with me, you know we we were bad with each other, 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.240 but he was not a bad person. Right, yeah, that's 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:51.400 a good differentiation. I was never concerned about her safety 0:03:51.720 --> 0:04:00.760 with him. Kinda was like questionings sometimes. All of course, 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:08.760 was I watching rated our movies at six. Sure is 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.600 not life threatening and you didn't get hurt. Yeah. So 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:16.320 legendary music producer Teddy Riley went public with a very personal, 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:20.720 heartbreaking situation. This is the first time he is speaking out. 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:26.440 Two time grammy winner, Teddy Riley is a powerhouse of 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:33.080 American music. His group Black Street made some of the 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:40.159 most iconic hits of the nineties, but his proudest accomplishment 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.919 is his nine children. Three years ago, his relationship with 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:48.120 his youngest son, Michael, took a devastating turn. He recently 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:52.400 posted a heartbreaking caption on instagram. This is probably one 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.799 of the saddest days of my life. It's my baby 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.880 son's birthday today and I haven't seen him in three 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:10.000 years plus. Hey, yes, yes, find to meet you. It's amazing. 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.480 So can you tell us what's going on with your 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.320 son Michael? You know, I just did the post on 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.920 his birthday and then so many people were posting it 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.320 and I was like wow, yeah, I think because you 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.440 know Teddy, so many people are dealing with so many 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.359 people can relate. I can relate to this. I'm just 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.880 hearing from so many different people and told me that 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.120 his mom's goal is to keep him away from me 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:39.120 and it really hurts, you know, because, Um, here's someone 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:43.000 I wanted to marry and I gave everything to. I'm 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.240 the first to hold my son. We had a home 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:49.159 birth and we had this bond that was just so amazing. 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:50.880 I mean all my signs, we all have a bond, 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:55.640 but Michael was like, wow, how old is Michael Now? 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.320 He's nine. You know, my father I didn't meet until 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:03.080 I was nine, my biological father. I said to myself 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:07.159 at I'll never want to be like my dad. I 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.840 have to change the narrative and be in all my 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.919 kids lives. Around two thousand five I took off about 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:21.000 five years. No music, no nothing, and we moved to 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:26.159 Atlanta and we spent the most amazing time together. You 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.400 and the kids. Yeah, me and my kids. I was 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.760 single dad. A couple of my kids just came and 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:36.080 moved in. You have such a great relationship with your 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:40.920 other children. How do you think Michael might be feeling? 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.159 Because if he doesn't have contact with you, does he 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:49.520 have contact with his other brother's? She doesn't want him 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.279 part of any of our lives. When I talked to 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:54.800 a friend of hers and she says you really need 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.279 to try and see your son, because his mom is 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.560 not really handling him right and she's really trying to 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.280 keep them away from you and you probably need to 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.039 do something about it. Do you talk to Michael at all? 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.680 Do you have any contact with him at all? I 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:13.920 used to. I bought him an IPAD. It is our communication. 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:18.040 We were playing, you know, the IPHONE Games, and that 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:23.600 all stopped. The last picture I've seen Michael, I didn't 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:27.800 know he started wearing glasses. So is his mom not 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.320 allowing him to communicate with you? was there a court order? Like, 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:37.240 we have a CO parenting contract and I lived to 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:41.040 that contract. So what is the contract? Break that down 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:44.560 for that way. Break down the contract for us. Well, 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:49.840 it's one sided because in the contract I let her 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:55.040 have the physical custody. Okay, and I did not read 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:57.280 that because I just said you do it, you handle it, 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.920 because she actually worked for accountant. She knew everything. Not, 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.120 it's a CO parenting contract where I paid this much 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.160 and I'll share your statements that much. And then she 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:13.080 said once he gets in first grade, in the contract 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:16.680 it goes down. Half got it. So you two came 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:21.400 up palm this agreement without getting the court and involved 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:26.200 when he went down half she went to court. She 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:29.640 wanted to get past the contract and just went straight 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.600 for the gust, though. So this is about child support. 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.760 So she doesn't want you to see Michael Because of 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:41.320 a child support discrepancy. So you basically saying I'm not 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.400 gonna be bullied. Right. You're basically saying I'm not going 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:49.000 to be manipulated. Right. It will be kind of hard 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:53.080 for people to hear that you're not paying child support. Right, 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:57.000 and all my children I have a trust, that trust. 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:01.520 He's straight. Right, and when he comes on this side, 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:07.240 try just like them. Good. But as long as she 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.680 is doing what she's doing, my trustees are not doing anything. 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:16.640 I don't like conflict. Let's work it out. I don't 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:21.079 like arguing. That's been my walk all my life because 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.720 I've seen so much with my mother and my father fighting. 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:28.800 That was like. I'll never be like that to any woman. So, Teddy, 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:31.840 let me ask you, if you just went down her 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.840 path paid the child support, do you think you would 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:39.480 be able to see him? No, she would still do 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:41.880 the same thing. One thing I don't want to do 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.600 is bash her. It's going to be a point where 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:48.160 I'm going to see him, because you know I will 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:53.440 spend my everything to see my son. So right now 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.520 you're just trying to figure out how to just get 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:01.680 your child support negotiation handled. Yeah, I'm trying to custody too. Yeah, 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:03.800 I want custody. I'm going for the whole thing. What 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.400 is your plan to reunite with with Michael? When and 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:10.480 how do you see that happening? I'm just being patient 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:13.320 for it. That's right. Right, I sent him a few 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:17.520 messages and you never got no response. And it's exactly 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:21.400 what her ex friend said she was going to do. Anytime, 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:26.160 like he used to sneak to text me, send me 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.840 a picture. Happy Birthday that so do you feel like 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:33.520 it's just about money for her all day, all day? 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:36.120 If it was about anything else, we would have worked 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.760 it out at some point. Something got to give. I'm 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.400 just waiting for that point. Right and at the end 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.480 of the day it's too such to a story. But 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.679 how has it been for you? Sometimes, when I'm alone, 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:52.960 it's like you get that anxiety, get that whole like feeling, 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.880 and for me I have to be in the dock. 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.480 So I took my room, which was all white, and 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:04.360 I made it all black. Wow, well, your daughter, Nia 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:06.760 and your son, T J wanted to come to the 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:16.160 table and support you. Cool, pleasure, pleasure. Thank you so Nia. 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.440 How does it feel to not be able to see 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:23.360 your baby brother? It feels like one of the kids 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.480 are missing. There's a lot of us and he's the 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.320 same age as my daughter. I was there when he 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.040 was born, I was at the House. So they're supposed 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:35.840 to be best friends and they don't have that. Yeah, 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:41.439 you used to when they were young. It was like, yeah, 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.920 this is so sad. Not About for you, T J, 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.839 it's sad because I have kind of like a tight 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.040 relationship with all my brothers. For him not to be there, 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:56.400 it's like somebody's missing. And none of us speak to 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:58.839 his mom, and we were even close at one point 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.800 and I haven't talked turn a very long time. So 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.280 it's not even just about the fact that you don't 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.880 get to see your sibling, but that you were once 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.960 close to his mother. I had a c section, she 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.920 helped me for that month until she had my brother 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.360 and then I helped her. So yeah, like we don't 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.520 speak at all, no communication. And how does that feel? 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.800 Something's missing. Yeah, once this is done, I feel like 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:30.319 I'll be complete. Yeah, no, piece of the plane that's missing. Yeah. So, Nia, 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:33.960 what do you want to say to precious Michael? I 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:37.160 Miss Him, I love him, we all do. Yeah, so, 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:39.400 T J, when was the last time you saw Michael? 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:45.760 Three Christmas or Christmas four? About four? I really hope, Teddy, 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.640 that it will get resolved, because would you agree that 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.240 Michael's in the middle and he's the only one losing 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:57.840 in there? And it's not fear to him. Yeah, it 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.720 isn't fair. He deserves US both. It does. I really 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.480 hope that you guys can come together and figure this 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:11.560 out for Michael and for both of you, for sure. So, 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.880 Ashlyn was alienated from her father for over a decade. 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.200 She says it made her hate half of who she is. 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:24.360 Ashlyn's family was featured in the documentary called erasing family. 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.880 Ashlyn's parents, Jennifer and dizzy, went through a hostile divorce 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.840 just months before she was born. The relationship was so 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.160 toxic Jennifer got a restraining order and refused to let 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.920 dizzey see his children. Dizzy desperately tried to make his 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.360 case for joint custody. Nothing I said mattered, none of 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.200 the evidence I brought forward mattered. The judge wouldn't even 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.600 look at it. My Ex said laning clearly that there 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:51.760 was nothing that I could do to get to see 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:55.440 my kids as their bitter battle raged on dizzy felt 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:57.920 he had no other choice but to give up. My 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:01.319 ex wife will go to any stream in her vendetta 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.320 against me. Therefore, I withdraw my petition and pray the 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:07.800 situation will change in the future and I will become 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:11.240 a part of my daughter's lives. Ashlyn says her mother 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:16.040 turned her against her father. I was informed that basically 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:22.360 he was poisoned. To me, wow, ashlyn's parents have agreed 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.920 to join the table, but they requested not to be 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.200 in the same room. And let me just first say 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.040 that I'm sorry that you've had to go through it 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.880 and that you're still in the mist of it a bit. 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:37.280 Thank you. As a kid, what did your Mom Tell 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.080 You about your dad? That was always he's not good 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:45.640 for you. Oh, he's selfish, he abandoned you. Yeah, the 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.560 first thing I remember I think I was around nine, 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:53.800 and she said he didn't pay the child support and 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:58.160 I was like, who you know? Your sperm Downer was nine. 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:00.680 So I'm like, I don't know what that means. It's 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.280 like the first introduction to dad was this person isn't reliable. 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:08.560 When she would say bad things about him, my first 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:10.920 feeling was, oh my God, she's saying bad things about me, 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.960 like because it's part of me right. So I would 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:19.400 internalize all these things. Kids are just internalizing this conflict. 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:24.080 It's crazy. He starts to build all these distortions in 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.800 your head and like your perception starts to warp. You know, Oh, 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:31.800 I'm not worthy. So you, as a young girl, really 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.840 wrapped your self worth into entirely. And even that your 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.280 father didn't want to have anything to do with you 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.080 and he abandoned you. I totally relate to that. How 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.600 else did not knowing your birth father impact your life? 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:50.840 I started acting out, I got pretty promiscuous, I got 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:55.000 into drugs. I mean, you name it. What you're missing, 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.680 you're seeking in others. Yeah, exactly. That's how it showed 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.320 up for me. What is disavoid? I remember my mom 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.880 sat me down in the bedroom when I was tent 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.360 and she goes, so your father wants to reach out, 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.720 and I was over the moon because I was like, 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.800 Oh my God, I get to find my word after 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:17.400 ten years of being shut out of his kids lives, 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:21.480 dizzy was shocked when Jennifer reached out. She said, your 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:23.440 children want to see you, they want to be in 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.280 your life. I said, how soon can you come over? 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:33.640 God it was such a blessing, but there were strings attached. 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.840 my Ex said, you know with what they take out 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:38.280 of your checks for child sports. I know that you 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:43.480 struggle and I would like to help with that. So 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.760 I have an idea. Jennifer's idea was to have our 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:52.800 new husband, Robert, officially adopt Ashlyn and her sibling. Ashlyn 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:57.680 was crying. I'm crying and I've got my kid's Stepdad 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.440 telling me don't worry, I'll make sure she never takes 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:05.920 your children away from you again. Believing that promise, dizzy 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:09.080 signed his parental rights away in order for the adoption 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.600 to go through and the minute the papers were signed 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:13.840 and the car doors were shut and everybody drove off, 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:20.720 that was the last time I saw wow. So when 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:23.040 the whole adoption thing went through when I was ten, 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:28.200 he was gone. After that, ripped out and I was angry. 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.439 I had so much resentment, I had guilt for wanting 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.919 to be with my dad, and then I had anger 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.360 for having the guilt. You know, it's just like horrible cycle. 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.600 A couple of years went by and it was just 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.560 kind of this weird epiphany moment like why don't you 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.600 just call him? You know, why don't you just try? 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.320 But I just decided, what are you gonna lose? What's 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:52.480 the worst that's gonna Happen? Totally, so I went for it. 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:55.639 That's all for you. I feel like that takes so 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.760 much courage. So Dizzy's gonna come join us at the table. 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:07.320 Come on out, dozy. That was hard to listen to. Yeah, 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.760 I'm sure. Did you think you would ever see them 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.800 after that? The last contact we had had was she 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.520 said a message. It said you're not my dad, you 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:18.399 don't know who my favorite band is, you don't know 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.320 what color I like, you don't know the movies I like, 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:22.560 you're nothing to me. Don't ever reach out to me. 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.119 It was a straight up thank you very much for 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:31.000 your DNA contribution, but you can just pe. And so 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.520 when she was fourteen she reached out and so we 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:37.439 talked four or five times and then we got to 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:39.919 do this like zoom, but it was before zoom. It 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:45.120 was some sort of video and we had our hands. Yeah, 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:47.840 and she had written. She had written I love you 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:50.719 on her hand and she's sitting there like this and 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:52.800 she says, Dad, no matter what, I'll see you when 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:58.639 I'm eighteen. And the screen paused. Now was it? Wow, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:04.280 Internet got cut off. WHOA? So I didn't hear from 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:08.120 her again for a while, a couple of years. Wow, 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.359 that was a rough moment. I still have the screenshot 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:17.600 on my phone. That was the first moment we had 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:24.399 seen each other since she was Ashlyn says it was 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.119 her mother and stepfather who switched off the Internet. In 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:31.120 the middle of that conversation with dizzy, I got into 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:37.080 a vicious argument and I ended up getting kicked out. 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.399 She had called me and let me know it. She 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:47.080 was homeless groups fourteen and I have no legal right 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:49.520 to drive up and pick her up. She's not my 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:53.359 child according to the courts. My stepdad and my mom 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:56.680 came to pick me up. They told me that if 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.800 I wanted to continue living in that house and have 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.840 happy family, but that meant I needed to cut ties 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:08.600 with my real dad. Wow. You fast forward four years 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:12.120 later when I'm at work and here she comes out, 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.520 bless her heart, wearing a motley crue shirt, one of 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:18.639 my favorite bands, and I just kind of stood there 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:20.960 for a minute, tears rolling down my face. I mean 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.720 ugly crying. My master was down to my channel. Yeah, 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:29.080 my heart was so much like it's just crazy, so amazing. 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:32.280 We're both ugly crying and everyone starts clapping. It was 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:36.920 just like, yeah, it's just so that's awesome. And that 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:42.440 was the one picture that got taken. Wow, I'm really curious. 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:46.800 What made you sign papers to give away your parental rise, 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.639 so permanent, so fine. Yeah, yeah, you're looking at your 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:55.440 child going, guess what, I'm such a s ob that 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.000 I don't care anymore, or I don't want to be 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:02.280 there for you, I'm going to walk away from you. Yeah, 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.679 remember that. It was probably a week later that I 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:14.000 went and started my kind of downward spiral. Alcohol, women, faceless, 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:19.639 nameless people, parties, cities, places I never belonged. Yeah, yeah, 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:23.200 been there, done that. Yeah, yeah, it's just so interesting, 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:27.760 like we get so locked in our own world of pain. Don't, please, don't. 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:32.520 I'm not innocent here, like I I was. I was 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:37.920 I was a lousy husband. Listening to you talk about 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:39.919 your father, he was not a bad man, but he 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.080 was bad to me. I was a bad man to 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.280 my ex wife. I was not a nice guy. Jennifer 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:47.920 deserved better. She was a lousy wife. I deserved better, 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:51.880 but we both didn't know what we were. We didn't 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:54.200 have her own worth at that time. I was nineteen, 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:59.760 she was sixteen, Seventeen. We were kids and kids do 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:03.399 stupid things and we continue to do them into our 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:07.240 adulthood because we had gotten so accustomed to that level 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.920 of toxicity between us. I was a horrible husband. I 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:12.679 had no idea what it was to be a husband. 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:14.639 I mean, the first thing you gotta do is stop dating. 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:20.280 But I wasn't a bad dad. You've got to love 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:24.240 your children more than you hate your action should be 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:31.240 on the St honestly, I mean that's true. God, I'm 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:33.480 sorry it didn't work out, but we have these life 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:38.919 forms that we've made. Let's you know, it's so easy 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:44.160 to get lost in the sauce of yourn. You are 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:48.840 telling me a girl, one of the hardest things, I think, 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:51.320 that we really have to look at in any situation. 0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:55.239 There's three sides. There's Jennifer's side, there's my side and 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:58.680 there's the truth. My side will always make me look 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.320 to be better. Right, Jennifer's side will always make her 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:04.000 look to be better. You want the truth, put those together. 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:06.760 Look at us both like we were both idiots, were 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:11.399 both screwed up, and that's probably closest to the truth. Exactly, 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:15.800 exactly where do you sit now in regards to some 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:19.560 of the guilt that you might feel? I have the 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:25.880 end of my kids. Stop It. You don't come back 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:30.879 from that, you don't come back from the moment you 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:37.280 realize that you're the a hole in the situation, that 0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:42.439 you could have fought harder, you could have stood stronger, right, 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:51.040 but you weren't man enough, you weren't secure enough. You're human, 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:56.119 right of my dad and it's my job to be 0:23:56.200 --> 0:24:00.119 a father and I walked away from that. Responsibilities are 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:05.720 my guilt. That's mine. That doesn't belong to Jennifer, it 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:09.880 doesn't belong to you. That belongs to me, right, and 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:13.600 that's that's my way to carry right, and I won't, 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:16.440 I won't let it go because it's something I need 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:23.120 to be able to recognize. So my guilt is mine. Well, 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:26.560 it's beautiful that you have an opportunity now. You know 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.600 she's sitting here right. You know, how has it been 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:37.160 having each other? Weener Schnitzel at eleven thirty and chili 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:42.560 cheese dogs down by the river on my motorcycle on 0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:51.800 a summer's night? That's what it's been, finding things together 0:24:52.600 --> 0:24:56.560 that make us who we are. She's an extraordinary person. 0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:01.120 How did it feel to just hear your father say 0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:07.440 to you that you are an extraordinary person? Oh, mm Hmmm, 0:25:09.600 --> 0:25:19.280 m M, yeah, mm Hmmm. Do you pick Sep I 0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:24.520 love you. Yeah, yeah, after reconnecting with her father, Ashlyn 0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:27.720 cut off almost all contact with her mother for eight years. 0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:40.160 I can talk to her right now. I don't even 0:25:40.160 --> 0:25:41.600 know what I would say. Would just be so happy 0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:44.800 that she's talking to me. Just over eighteen months ago, 0:25:45.080 --> 0:25:51.639 Ashlyn and her mother reconnected. We actually have Jennifer, your mother, 0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:56.359 your ex wife, who has agreed to join our conversation. Dizzy, 0:25:56.400 --> 0:25:59.360 I know you said that you didn't want to. Yeah, 0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:09.880 I need I thing. Okay, that's that works for us. Hi, Jennifer, 0:26:10.400 --> 0:26:13.439 thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for 0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:17.439 having me. We know everyone has their side of the story, 0:26:17.960 --> 0:26:20.960 and you were just talking about the fact that you're 0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:26.320 alienated from Your Dad. Then you kind of went and 0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:28.919 and I go over to live with my dad, and 0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:31.879 then my dad's got all this hurt and baggage and pain, 0:26:32.000 --> 0:26:35.080 so he bleeds that onto me because we didn't have 0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:38.520 boundaries at the time. So then I'm alienated from my mother, 0:26:39.119 --> 0:26:43.800