Speaker 1: Hey Fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Speaker 1: Red Table Pop podcast. All your favorite episodes from the
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Speaker 1: on Apple podcasts. There's a silent epidemic destroying families. It's
Speaker 1: called Parental Alien Nation, when a parent viciously turns their
Speaker 1: child against the other parents. Over twenty two million families
Speaker 1: are going through it, including ours. This is really personal
Speaker 1: to us. I'm any race. You're an a race cousin.
Speaker 1: For the first time, legendary music producer Teddy Riley reveals
Speaker 1: why he hasn't seen his son in three years. What's
Speaker 1: going on with your son now? She didn't speak to
Speaker 1: her father for nearly a decade. There was always he's
Speaker 1: not good for you, he's selfish, he abandoned you. Now
Speaker 1: they're at the table. She sent a message that said
Speaker 1: you're nothing to me, don't ever reach out to me together.
Speaker 1: What made you give away your par a? All Right, kids,
Speaker 1: we actually have your ex wife who has agreed to
Speaker 1: join our conversation. I need to start out with a kid,
Speaker 1: a wake up call for parents everywhere. Learn from our mistakes.
Speaker 1: Here we are. We go back at the table. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm chipping around in these. I'm just making sure you
Speaker 1: are right. This is gonna be a really interesting table today. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a silent epidemic gripping families apart. It's called parental alienation,
Speaker 1: when a parent viciously turns their child against the other parent.
Speaker 1: Whether you are familiar with the term or not, chances
Speaker 1: are you or someone you know is going through it.
Speaker 1: I know so many people that are going through it
Speaker 1: right now and it is terrible. We've had to deal
Speaker 1: with it in a family and this person and made
Speaker 1: a decision that she didn't want her child to be
Speaker 1: a part of our family, and it was. It was
Speaker 1: devastating and we don't even know why. We don't even
Speaker 1: know what happened. I think what people don't realize is
Speaker 1: that when you make the decision to alienate one of
Speaker 1: the parents, typically you're going to alienate the whole family.
Speaker 1: I'm an erased aunt, you're an erased cousin, there's erased grandparents,
Speaker 1: but the whole family suffers, including the child, because now
Speaker 1: the child doesn't know that for a family. You know,
Speaker 1: I just had an intense therapy session and I called
Speaker 1: you last weekend and I was like, why did you
Speaker 1: let me? Still I have a relation with my father,
Speaker 1: considering like he was not well, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: He never paid a day a child support. Really, in
Speaker 1: this circumstance, he didn't have anything. There wasn't anything for
Speaker 1: him to give. So what are you going to go
Speaker 1: to court and battle for? The unwellness was an addiction
Speaker 1: and I just also figured like at some point in time,
Speaker 1: if he got himself together, it should be Jada's decision
Speaker 1: what relationship she had with her father. I didn't want
Speaker 1: to bog her down with all of our nonsense. So
Speaker 1: I give you prop scam because it's hard. It's hard
Speaker 1: not to. I feel like if I had experienced some
Speaker 1: of the stuff that you experienced with my mom's dad,
Speaker 1: I would be thinking, is it best for the kid
Speaker 1: to be around a person who would do this? But
Speaker 1: Jada's dad was not a bad guy. He was bad
Speaker 1: with me, you know we we were bad with each other,
Speaker 1: but he was not a bad person. Right, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a good differentiation. I was never concerned about her safety
Speaker 1: with him. Kinda was like questionings sometimes. All of course,
Speaker 1: was I watching rated our movies at six. Sure is
Speaker 1: not life threatening and you didn't get hurt. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: legendary music producer Teddy Riley went public with a very personal,
Speaker 1: heartbreaking situation. This is the first time he is speaking out.
Speaker 1: Two time grammy winner, Teddy Riley is a powerhouse of
Speaker 1: American music. His group Black Street made some of the
Speaker 1: most iconic hits of the nineties, but his proudest accomplishment
Speaker 1: is his nine children. Three years ago, his relationship with
Speaker 1: his youngest son, Michael, took a devastating turn. He recently
Speaker 1: posted a heartbreaking caption on instagram. This is probably one
Speaker 1: of the saddest days of my life. It's my baby
Speaker 1: son's birthday today and I haven't seen him in three
Speaker 1: years plus. Hey, yes, yes, find to meet you. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: So can you tell us what's going on with your
Speaker 1: son Michael? You know, I just did the post on
Speaker 1: his birthday and then so many people were posting it
Speaker 1: and I was like wow, yeah, I think because you
Speaker 1: know Teddy, so many people are dealing with so many
Speaker 1: people can relate. I can relate to this. I'm just
Speaker 1: hearing from so many different people and told me that
Speaker 1: his mom's goal is to keep him away from me
Speaker 1: and it really hurts, you know, because, Um, here's someone
Speaker 1: I wanted to marry and I gave everything to. I'm
Speaker 1: the first to hold my son. We had a home
Speaker 1: birth and we had this bond that was just so amazing.
Speaker 1: I mean all my signs, we all have a bond,
Speaker 1: but Michael was like, wow, how old is Michael Now?
Speaker 1: He's nine. You know, my father I didn't meet until
Speaker 1: I was nine, my biological father. I said to myself
Speaker 1: at I'll never want to be like my dad. I
Speaker 1: have to change the narrative and be in all my
Speaker 1: kids lives. Around two thousand five I took off about
Speaker 1: five years. No music, no nothing, and we moved to
Speaker 1: Atlanta and we spent the most amazing time together. You
Speaker 1: and the kids. Yeah, me and my kids. I was
Speaker 1: single dad. A couple of my kids just came and
Speaker 1: moved in. You have such a great relationship with your
Speaker 1: other children. How do you think Michael might be feeling?
Speaker 1: Because if he doesn't have contact with you, does he
Speaker 1: have contact with his other brother's? She doesn't want him
Speaker 1: part of any of our lives. When I talked to
Speaker 1: a friend of hers and she says you really need
Speaker 1: to try and see your son, because his mom is
Speaker 1: not really handling him right and she's really trying to
Speaker 1: keep them away from you and you probably need to
Speaker 1: do something about it. Do you talk to Michael at all?
Speaker 1: Do you have any contact with him at all? I
Speaker 1: used to. I bought him an IPAD. It is our communication.
Speaker 1: We were playing, you know, the IPHONE Games, and that
Speaker 1: all stopped. The last picture I've seen Michael, I didn't
Speaker 1: know he started wearing glasses. So is his mom not
Speaker 1: allowing him to communicate with you? was there a court order? Like,
Speaker 1: we have a CO parenting contract and I lived to
Speaker 1: that contract. So what is the contract? Break that down
Speaker 1: for that way. Break down the contract for us. Well,
Speaker 1: it's one sided because in the contract I let her
Speaker 1: have the physical custody. Okay, and I did not read
Speaker 1: that because I just said you do it, you handle it,
Speaker 1: because she actually worked for accountant. She knew everything. Not,
Speaker 1: it's a CO parenting contract where I paid this much
Speaker 1: and I'll share your statements that much. And then she
Speaker 1: said once he gets in first grade, in the contract
Speaker 1: it goes down. Half got it. So you two came
Speaker 1: up palm this agreement without getting the court and involved
Speaker 1: when he went down half she went to court. She
Speaker 1: wanted to get past the contract and just went straight
Speaker 1: for the gust, though. So this is about child support.
Speaker 1: So she doesn't want you to see Michael Because of
Speaker 1: a child support discrepancy. So you basically saying I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna be bullied. Right. You're basically saying I'm not going
Speaker 1: to be manipulated. Right. It will be kind of hard
Speaker 1: for people to hear that you're not paying child support. Right,
Speaker 1: and all my children I have a trust, that trust.
Speaker 1: He's straight. Right, and when he comes on this side,
Speaker 1: try just like them. Good. But as long as she
Speaker 1: is doing what she's doing, my trustees are not doing anything.
Speaker 1: I don't like conflict. Let's work it out. I don't
Speaker 1: like arguing. That's been my walk all my life because
Speaker 1: I've seen so much with my mother and my father fighting.
Speaker 1: That was like. I'll never be like that to any woman. So, Teddy,
Speaker 1: let me ask you, if you just went down her
Speaker 1: path paid the child support, do you think you would
Speaker 1: be able to see him? No, she would still do
Speaker 1: the same thing. One thing I don't want to do
Speaker 1: is bash her. It's going to be a point where
Speaker 1: I'm going to see him, because you know I will
Speaker 1: spend my everything to see my son. So right now
Speaker 1: you're just trying to figure out how to just get
Speaker 1: your child support negotiation handled. Yeah, I'm trying to custody too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want custody. I'm going for the whole thing. What
Speaker 1: is your plan to reunite with with Michael? When and
Speaker 1: how do you see that happening? I'm just being patient
Speaker 1: for it. That's right. Right, I sent him a few
Speaker 1: messages and you never got no response. And it's exactly
Speaker 1: what her ex friend said she was going to do. Anytime,
Speaker 1: like he used to sneak to text me, send me
Speaker 1: a picture. Happy Birthday that so do you feel like
Speaker 1: it's just about money for her all day, all day?
Speaker 1: If it was about anything else, we would have worked
Speaker 1: it out at some point. Something got to give. I'm
Speaker 1: just waiting for that point. Right and at the end
Speaker 1: of the day it's too such to a story. But
Speaker 1: how has it been for you? Sometimes, when I'm alone,
Speaker 1: it's like you get that anxiety, get that whole like feeling,
Speaker 1: and for me I have to be in the dock.
Speaker 1: So I took my room, which was all white, and
Speaker 1: I made it all black. Wow, well, your daughter, Nia
Speaker 1: and your son, T J wanted to come to the
Speaker 1: table and support you. Cool, pleasure, pleasure. Thank you so Nia.
Speaker 1: How does it feel to not be able to see
Speaker 1: your baby brother? It feels like one of the kids
Speaker 1: are missing. There's a lot of us and he's the
Speaker 1: same age as my daughter. I was there when he
Speaker 1: was born, I was at the House. So they're supposed
Speaker 1: to be best friends and they don't have that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you used to when they were young. It was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is so sad. Not About for you, T J,
Speaker 1: it's sad because I have kind of like a tight
Speaker 1: relationship with all my brothers. For him not to be there,
Speaker 1: it's like somebody's missing. And none of us speak to
Speaker 1: his mom, and we were even close at one point
Speaker 1: and I haven't talked turn a very long time. So
Speaker 1: it's not even just about the fact that you don't
Speaker 1: get to see your sibling, but that you were once
Speaker 1: close to his mother. I had a c section, she
Speaker 1: helped me for that month until she had my brother
Speaker 1: and then I helped her. So yeah, like we don't
Speaker 1: speak at all, no communication. And how does that feel?
Speaker 1: Something's missing. Yeah, once this is done, I feel like
Speaker 1: I'll be complete. Yeah, no, piece of the plane that's missing. Yeah. So, Nia,
Speaker 1: what do you want to say to precious Michael? I
Speaker 1: Miss Him, I love him, we all do. Yeah, so,
Speaker 1: T J, when was the last time you saw Michael?
Speaker 1: Three Christmas or Christmas four? About four? I really hope, Teddy,
Speaker 1: that it will get resolved, because would you agree that
Speaker 1: Michael's in the middle and he's the only one losing
Speaker 1: in there? And it's not fear to him. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: isn't fair. He deserves US both. It does. I really
Speaker 1: hope that you guys can come together and figure this
Speaker 1: out for Michael and for both of you, for sure. So,
Speaker 1: Ashlyn was alienated from her father for over a decade.
Speaker 1: She says it made her hate half of who she is.
Speaker 1: Ashlyn's family was featured in the documentary called erasing family.
Speaker 1: Ashlyn's parents, Jennifer and dizzy, went through a hostile divorce
Speaker 1: just months before she was born. The relationship was so
Speaker 1: toxic Jennifer got a restraining order and refused to let
Speaker 1: dizzey see his children. Dizzy desperately tried to make his
Speaker 1: case for joint custody. Nothing I said mattered, none of
Speaker 1: the evidence I brought forward mattered. The judge wouldn't even
Speaker 1: look at it. My Ex said laning clearly that there
Speaker 1: was nothing that I could do to get to see
Speaker 1: my kids as their bitter battle raged on dizzy felt
Speaker 1: he had no other choice but to give up. My
Speaker 1: ex wife will go to any stream in her vendetta
Speaker 1: against me. Therefore, I withdraw my petition and pray the
Speaker 1: situation will change in the future and I will become
Speaker 1: a part of my daughter's lives. Ashlyn says her mother
Speaker 1: turned her against her father. I was informed that basically
Speaker 1: he was poisoned. To me, wow, ashlyn's parents have agreed
Speaker 1: to join the table, but they requested not to be
Speaker 1: in the same room. And let me just first say
Speaker 1: that I'm sorry that you've had to go through it
Speaker 1: and that you're still in the mist of it a bit.
Speaker 1: Thank you. As a kid, what did your Mom Tell
Speaker 1: You about your dad? That was always he's not good
Speaker 1: for you. Oh, he's selfish, he abandoned you. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: first thing I remember I think I was around nine,
Speaker 1: and she said he didn't pay the child support and
Speaker 1: I was like, who you know? Your sperm Downer was nine.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, I don't know what that means. It's
Speaker 1: like the first introduction to dad was this person isn't reliable.
Speaker 1: When she would say bad things about him, my first
Speaker 1: feeling was, oh my God, she's saying bad things about me,
Speaker 1: like because it's part of me right. So I would
Speaker 1: internalize all these things. Kids are just internalizing this conflict.
Speaker 1: It's crazy. He starts to build all these distortions in
Speaker 1: your head and like your perception starts to warp. You know, Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm not worthy. So you, as a young girl, really
Speaker 1: wrapped your self worth into entirely. And even that your
Speaker 1: father didn't want to have anything to do with you
Speaker 1: and he abandoned you. I totally relate to that. How
Speaker 1: else did not knowing your birth father impact your life?
Speaker 1: I started acting out, I got pretty promiscuous, I got
Speaker 1: into drugs. I mean, you name it. What you're missing,
Speaker 1: you're seeking in others. Yeah, exactly. That's how it showed
Speaker 1: up for me. What is disavoid? I remember my mom
Speaker 1: sat me down in the bedroom when I was tent
Speaker 1: and she goes, so your father wants to reach out,
Speaker 1: and I was over the moon because I was like,
Speaker 1: Oh my God, I get to find my word after
Speaker 1: ten years of being shut out of his kids lives,
Speaker 1: dizzy was shocked when Jennifer reached out. She said, your
Speaker 1: children want to see you, they want to be in
Speaker 1: your life. I said, how soon can you come over?
Speaker 1: God it was such a blessing, but there were strings attached.
Speaker 1: my Ex said, you know with what they take out
Speaker 1: of your checks for child sports. I know that you
Speaker 1: struggle and I would like to help with that. So
Speaker 1: I have an idea. Jennifer's idea was to have our
Speaker 1: new husband, Robert, officially adopt Ashlyn and her sibling. Ashlyn
Speaker 1: was crying. I'm crying and I've got my kid's Stepdad
Speaker 1: telling me don't worry, I'll make sure she never takes
Speaker 1: your children away from you again. Believing that promise, dizzy
Speaker 1: signed his parental rights away in order for the adoption
Speaker 1: to go through and the minute the papers were signed
Speaker 1: and the car doors were shut and everybody drove off,
Speaker 1: that was the last time I saw wow. So when
Speaker 1: the whole adoption thing went through when I was ten,
Speaker 1: he was gone. After that, ripped out and I was angry.
Speaker 1: I had so much resentment, I had guilt for wanting
Speaker 1: to be with my dad, and then I had anger
Speaker 1: for having the guilt. You know, it's just like horrible cycle.
Speaker 1: A couple of years went by and it was just
Speaker 1: kind of this weird epiphany moment like why don't you
Speaker 1: just call him? You know, why don't you just try?
Speaker 1: But I just decided, what are you gonna lose? What's
Speaker 1: the worst that's gonna Happen? Totally, so I went for it.
Speaker 1: That's all for you. I feel like that takes so
Speaker 1: much courage. So Dizzy's gonna come join us at the table.
Speaker 1: Come on out, dozy. That was hard to listen to. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure. Did you think you would ever see them
Speaker 1: after that? The last contact we had had was she
Speaker 1: said a message. It said you're not my dad, you
Speaker 1: don't know who my favorite band is, you don't know
Speaker 1: what color I like, you don't know the movies I like,
Speaker 1: you're nothing to me. Don't ever reach out to me.
Speaker 1: It was a straight up thank you very much for
Speaker 1: your DNA contribution, but you can just pe. And so
Speaker 1: when she was fourteen she reached out and so we
Speaker 1: talked four or five times and then we got to
Speaker 1: do this like zoom, but it was before zoom. It
Speaker 1: was some sort of video and we had our hands. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and she had written. She had written I love you
Speaker 1: on her hand and she's sitting there like this and
Speaker 1: she says, Dad, no matter what, I'll see you when
Speaker 1: I'm eighteen. And the screen paused. Now was it? Wow,
Speaker 1: Internet got cut off. WHOA? So I didn't hear from
Speaker 1: her again for a while, a couple of years. Wow,
Speaker 1: that was a rough moment. I still have the screenshot
Speaker 1: on my phone. That was the first moment we had
Speaker 1: seen each other since she was Ashlyn says it was
Speaker 1: her mother and stepfather who switched off the Internet. In
Speaker 1: the middle of that conversation with dizzy, I got into
Speaker 1: a vicious argument and I ended up getting kicked out.
Speaker 1: She had called me and let me know it. She
Speaker 1: was homeless groups fourteen and I have no legal right
Speaker 1: to drive up and pick her up. She's not my
Speaker 1: child according to the courts. My stepdad and my mom
Speaker 1: came to pick me up. They told me that if
Speaker 1: I wanted to continue living in that house and have
Speaker 1: happy family, but that meant I needed to cut ties
Speaker 1: with my real dad. Wow. You fast forward four years
Speaker 1: later when I'm at work and here she comes out,
Speaker 1: bless her heart, wearing a motley crue shirt, one of
Speaker 1: my favorite bands, and I just kind of stood there
Speaker 1: for a minute, tears rolling down my face. I mean
Speaker 1: ugly crying. My master was down to my channel. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my heart was so much like it's just crazy, so amazing.
Speaker 1: We're both ugly crying and everyone starts clapping. It was
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, it's just so that's awesome. And that
Speaker 1: was the one picture that got taken. Wow, I'm really curious.
Speaker 1: What made you sign papers to give away your parental rise,
Speaker 1: so permanent, so fine. Yeah, yeah, you're looking at your
Speaker 1: child going, guess what, I'm such a s ob that
Speaker 1: I don't care anymore, or I don't want to be
Speaker 1: there for you, I'm going to walk away from you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: remember that. It was probably a week later that I
Speaker 1: went and started my kind of downward spiral. Alcohol, women, faceless,
Speaker 1: nameless people, parties, cities, places I never belonged. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: been there, done that. Yeah, yeah, it's just so interesting,
Speaker 1: like we get so locked in our own world of pain. Don't, please, don't.
Speaker 1: I'm not innocent here, like I I was. I was
Speaker 1: I was a lousy husband. Listening to you talk about
Speaker 1: your father, he was not a bad man, but he
Speaker 1: was bad to me. I was a bad man to
Speaker 1: my ex wife. I was not a nice guy. Jennifer
Speaker 1: deserved better. She was a lousy wife. I deserved better,
Speaker 1: but we both didn't know what we were. We didn't
Speaker 1: have her own worth at that time. I was nineteen,
Speaker 1: she was sixteen, Seventeen. We were kids and kids do
Speaker 1: stupid things and we continue to do them into our
Speaker 1: adulthood because we had gotten so accustomed to that level
Speaker 1: of toxicity between us. I was a horrible husband. I
Speaker 1: had no idea what it was to be a husband.
Speaker 1: I mean, the first thing you gotta do is stop dating.
Speaker 1: But I wasn't a bad dad. You've got to love
Speaker 1: your children more than you hate your action should be
Speaker 1: on the St honestly, I mean that's true. God, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry it didn't work out, but we have these life
Speaker 1: forms that we've made. Let's you know, it's so easy
Speaker 1: to get lost in the sauce of yourn. You are
Speaker 1: telling me a girl, one of the hardest things, I think,
Speaker 1: that we really have to look at in any situation.
Speaker 1: There's three sides. There's Jennifer's side, there's my side and
Speaker 1: there's the truth. My side will always make me look
Speaker 1: to be better. Right, Jennifer's side will always make her
Speaker 1: look to be better. You want the truth, put those together.
Speaker 1: Look at us both like we were both idiots, were
Speaker 1: both screwed up, and that's probably closest to the truth. Exactly,
Speaker 1: exactly where do you sit now in regards to some
Speaker 1: of the guilt that you might feel? I have the
Speaker 1: end of my kids. Stop It. You don't come back
Speaker 1: from that, you don't come back from the moment you
Speaker 1: realize that you're the a hole in the situation, that
Speaker 1: you could have fought harder, you could have stood stronger, right,
Speaker 1: but you weren't man enough, you weren't secure enough. You're human,
Speaker 1: right of my dad and it's my job to be
Speaker 1: a father and I walked away from that. Responsibilities are
Speaker 1: my guilt. That's mine. That doesn't belong to Jennifer, it
Speaker 1: doesn't belong to you. That belongs to me, right, and
Speaker 1: that's that's my way to carry right, and I won't,
Speaker 1: I won't let it go because it's something I need
Speaker 1: to be able to recognize. So my guilt is mine. Well,
Speaker 1: it's beautiful that you have an opportunity now. You know
Speaker 1: she's sitting here right. You know, how has it been
Speaker 1: having each other? Weener Schnitzel at eleven thirty and chili
Speaker 1: cheese dogs down by the river on my motorcycle on
Speaker 1: a summer's night? That's what it's been, finding things together
Speaker 1: that make us who we are. She's an extraordinary person.
Speaker 1: How did it feel to just hear your father say
Speaker 1: to you that you are an extraordinary person? Oh, mm Hmmm,
Speaker 1: m M, yeah, mm Hmmm. Do you pick Sep I
Speaker 1: love you. Yeah, yeah, after reconnecting with her father, Ashlyn
Speaker 1: cut off almost all contact with her mother for eight years.
Speaker 1: I can talk to her right now. I don't even
Speaker 1: know what I would say. Would just be so happy
Speaker 1: that she's talking to me. Just over eighteen months ago,
Speaker 1: Ashlyn and her mother reconnected. We actually have Jennifer, your mother,
Speaker 1: your ex wife, who has agreed to join our conversation. Dizzy,
Speaker 1: I know you said that you didn't want to. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I need I thing. Okay, that's that works for us. Hi, Jennifer,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for
Speaker 1: having me. We know everyone has their side of the story,
Speaker 1: and you were just talking about the fact that you're
Speaker 1: alienated from Your Dad. Then you kind of went and
Speaker 1: and I go over to live with my dad, and
Speaker 1: then my dad's got all this hurt and baggage and pain,
Speaker 1: so he bleeds that onto me because we didn't have
Speaker 1: boundaries at the time. So then I'm alienated from my mother,
Speaker 1: you know. So it was a cycle that just kept going. Well,
Speaker 1: now this is a safe parent. No, wait, this one's
Speaker 1: a safe parent. It's like when does the Cycle Jennifer?
Speaker 1: I know these situations are never easy. Before you why
Speaker 1: wasn't dizzy in your kids lives? Well, we were very,
Speaker 1: very young. That pretty much just takes up a big
Speaker 1: part of it. Being young and being immature and not
Speaker 1: knowing do I want to be a parent today or
Speaker 1: do I want to kind of hang out with my friends,
Speaker 1: being way too young to handle, you know, these very
Speaker 1: big adult things like getting married and having a family.
Speaker 1: When you look back, would you change anything? There's a
Speaker 1: whole lot I would change right right, not really having
Speaker 1: a whole lot of guidance along the way and just
Speaker 1: flying by the seat of your pants. It doesn't always
Speaker 1: go very well. We don't always act like, you know, adults,
Speaker 1: because we're not adults exactly. was there anything that dizzy
Speaker 1: shared with us? That you might feel differently about. I
Speaker 1: feel differently about our whole situation. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: we can both agree that we had no idea the
Speaker 1: impact that it would take on the children because we
Speaker 1: were so wrapped up. And he said, she said that
Speaker 1: you have no idea the impact that later can take
Speaker 1: over with the children. No thought in my head. I
Speaker 1: don't think he's either. Were too wrapped up in the immaturity,
Speaker 1: in the drama. When Ashlyn reconnected with her father, how
Speaker 1: did that make you feel? I wasn't thrilled because, you know,
Speaker 1: you just you keep those memories, those angry memories, and
Speaker 1: you just hold onto him right, assume. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: surely he couldn't have grown up. You know, how does
Speaker 1: it make you feel to see your daughter having the
Speaker 1: ability to have access to you, have the ability to
Speaker 1: have access to her father, and she's seemingly very happy?
Speaker 1: I couldn't be happier. I'm so just incredibly proud, because
Speaker 1: she's the one who brought a whole lot of this
Speaker 1: together because, I mean, she's way more of an adult
Speaker 1: than we were at this age. You know what, Jennifer,
Speaker 1: that's usually how it goes. I could have ever thought
Speaker 1: to be ever, so I totally understand. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes it takes our kids to teach us. Yeah, out
Speaker 1: of the mouth of Babes. Jennifer, do you think there
Speaker 1: will ever be a time where you might forgive dizzy?
Speaker 1: I already have. We are so entirely different people than
Speaker 1: we work back then. I mean, that's been I won't
Speaker 1: say how many years, but it's been a few right, right, right.
Speaker 1: I have to say what you're sharing now gives me
Speaker 1: a lot of hope that there can be healing for
Speaker 1: other families. I totally agree with Jim. It takes a
Speaker 1: lot of courage to be able to share the story
Speaker 1: of your family and that's not easy. I promise you
Speaker 1: this is gonna help so many people. I just don't
Speaker 1: want anyone to go through what we went through. Learn
Speaker 1: from our mistakes. Thank you, Ashlyn. I thank your mother, Jennifer.
Speaker 1: I thank your father, dizzy. We wish continue healing for
Speaker 1: you and your family. Absolutely blessings, blessing, blessings for sure.
Speaker 1: My goodness, how many people are going through this epidemic? Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: I have so many friends that are going through this
Speaker 1: exact situation right now and it's really bad. Melissa has
Speaker 1: not had a relationship with her three children in three
Speaker 1: years after a difficult divorce. First of all, let me
Speaker 1: just say I am so sorry that you were going
Speaker 1: through this. I cannot imagine not seeing my children for
Speaker 1: three years. Alyssa sat down with Dr Amy Baker, author
Speaker 1: of surviving parental alienation and one of the world's leading
Speaker 1: experts on this epidemic. Dr Amy Counsel's alienated parents on
Speaker 1: how to communicate with their children. Hey, Lissa, hi, tell
Speaker 1: me a little bit about your kids and sort of
Speaker 1: what happened. I have three children. There are fourteen, sixteen
Speaker 1: and eighteen currently. I was married for seventeen years. At
Speaker 1: the end of my marriage things got um very tumultuous.
Speaker 1: There were some events that took place that were pretty
Speaker 1: traumatic um where I was removed from my home immediately.
Speaker 1: There was a restraining order with my ex husband and
Speaker 1: so I was not able to have any contact with
Speaker 1: him or be anywhere near him or be anywhere near
Speaker 1: my home, and through that process I lost my relationship
Speaker 1: with my children and I'm trying desperately to work on
Speaker 1: how to reunite with them. I think the hardest thing
Speaker 1: for a targeted parent to hear is I don't want
Speaker 1: to talk to you. Sometimes I feel like I can
Speaker 1: hear my ex husband his voice in them and and
Speaker 1: that's really hard for me. Oh yeah, it is helpful
Speaker 1: to remember that it is coming from the other parents,
Speaker 1: the kids or the Messenger, but the message is coming
Speaker 1: from the other parent. The natural thing to do if
Speaker 1: you're accused of something that's false is to say, what
Speaker 1: are you talking about? That's ridiculous. I didn't do that.
Speaker 1: But all of those things are unhelpful because if you
Speaker 1: tell a child that's not true, you're basically calling your
Speaker 1: child a liar. But you don't have to apologize and
Speaker 1: you don't have to argue. There is something else to do.
Speaker 1: It's called the five steps. Step on, you thank your child.
Speaker 1: You should feel grateful because if your child's bringing a
Speaker 1: complaint to you, it means they care enough to share
Speaker 1: that feeling with you, because the alternative is your child
Speaker 1: complains about you to the other parent. The second step
Speaker 1: is to be compassionate, pay attention to what your child
Speaker 1: is feeling and you reflect it back, like, I can
Speaker 1: see how mad you are thinking that. I whatever it is.
Speaker 1: Step three is called empathy. It's where you put yourself
Speaker 1: in his shoes. If I believed what you believed, I'd
Speaker 1: be feeling what you're feeling. And then you get to
Speaker 1: step forward where you get to say your truth. Most
Speaker 1: of the time the accusation is subjective. You'll listen to me,
Speaker 1: you know, love me or mean to Daddy, to your fault.
Speaker 1: The marriage end. And then you say I see that differently,
Speaker 1: very calmly, and then you end step five with the recap,
Speaker 1: more gratitude, compassion and empathy. So you would say, I
Speaker 1: understand that you think x happened and that's why you're
Speaker 1: so upset, and I'm so grateful you're telling me because
Speaker 1: now I know where you're coming from and if you
Speaker 1: can do those five steps, parents tell me it works
Speaker 1: because the child feels cared about. You know what's stuck
Speaker 1: out in that for me, Alyssa, when you said that sometimes,
Speaker 1: when they're sharing with you what they're feeling, what you
Speaker 1: hear is your husband's voice and it's so hard. I
Speaker 1: have a friend that's going through the exact same thing
Speaker 1: that you're going through right now. Sometimes that personal retext
Speaker 1: spects and say to me, this is my partner, this
Speaker 1: is not even my freaking kids. Having kids feel like
Speaker 1: they can disrespect the other parents is really hard. I've
Speaker 1: seen kids literally curse their parents out. Unfortunately, crazy what
Speaker 1: would seem like the right thing to do turns out
Speaker 1: often not to be helpful. The idea that if a
Speaker 1: child disrespects you you should say how dare you be nasty,
Speaker 1: rude disrespectful to me? That actually does not work. So
Speaker 1: there's a lot of this because if your child's being disrespectful,
Speaker 1: certainly an alienation cases, the child's coming from a place
Speaker 1: of anger and hurt and if you start by reacting
Speaker 1: to their bad behavior, you're just saying I don't really
Speaker 1: carry your coming from. I just don't want you to
Speaker 1: be rude to me. I encourage my clients to start
Speaker 1: by saying wow, you must be really upset with me,
Speaker 1: and then you describe what they're doing in non shaming,
Speaker 1: non blaming ways. Rather than saying you're being rude, you're
Speaker 1: being nasty, you say you're talking in a way that
Speaker 1: doesn't feel good for me, or I don't want to
Speaker 1: be cursed at, or you're talking very loud and it's
Speaker 1: hurting my ears, and then you invite the child to
Speaker 1: tell you what's going on without that behavior. Tell me
Speaker 1: what's going on in a way that can work for me,
Speaker 1: and you're role modeling to them, hopefully one day, how
Speaker 1: to stand up to the alienator. Yeah, Alyssa, what do
Speaker 1: you love about being a mom? Sorry, I had my
Speaker 1: kids when it was twenty four and so they were
Speaker 1: my everything. It's the little things. Take them their breakfast
Speaker 1: or have that hug. Being able to see the world
Speaker 1: through them and to experience it with them is everything,
Speaker 1: and so when that is taken away you feel empty sometimes.
Speaker 1: I define alienation is where one parent gives the child
Speaker 1: permission to break the other parent's heart. That's exactly it.
Speaker 1: That protection order with my husband restricted me from being
Speaker 1: around my children because they were still living in the home.
Speaker 1: If he would be where they were, I couldn't be
Speaker 1: at those events. Dr Amy, does this happen regularly? It
Speaker 1: happened so often that I tell my clients pack a bag.
Speaker 1: Haven't ready have cash. I'm not saying drain the bank accounts,
Speaker 1: that's not proper, but have some money set aside, have
Speaker 1: a plan and be prepared that it could have them. Wow,
Speaker 1: it's very easy to get a temporary restraining order. Anybody
Speaker 1: can show up in court and claim to be a victim.
Speaker 1: Now many people actually are. I am certainly not saying
Speaker 1: everybody who asks for restraining orders faking it, but when
Speaker 1: somebody does, it's very hard for the system to detect
Speaker 1: a true and a false claim. The system is designed
Speaker 1: to err on the side of caution to protect people.
Speaker 1: What that means is pretty much anybody can get a
Speaker 1: temporary restraining order. The person who is the accused uh
Speaker 1: perpetrator is not notified. It's called an ex parte motion.
Speaker 1: You go to the judge without the other person even knowing.
Speaker 1: They don't have an opportunity to say their side of things.
Speaker 1: Then in three days there's a hearing. At that point
Speaker 1: the accused person is notified and they do show up. Hopefully. However,
Speaker 1: and this is so important for people to understand, attorneys
Speaker 1: off and tell the person, oh, just sign it, make
Speaker 1: this the you know, it's not a big deal, no problem,
Speaker 1: don't fight it, you'll lose anyway. A lot of attorneys
Speaker 1: aren't really prepared to take that three day hearing and
Speaker 1: treat it like the most important thing in somebody's life.
Speaker 1: And then what happens is everybody assumes, well, they wouldn't
Speaker 1: have signed it if they weren't really guilty. So there's
Speaker 1: this stain, you know, this cloud that hangs over people.
Speaker 1: The kids think, well, mom wouldn't have signed it, the
Speaker 1: judge wouldn't have said this is a restraining order if
Speaker 1: mom wasn't really guilty. And this happens all the time.
Speaker 1: is even if the kids aren't on the restraining order.
Speaker 1: In other words, it's just between the two parties. If
Speaker 1: the person who supposedly needs to be protected is always
Speaker 1: with the kids and the other parent isn't allowed to
Speaker 1: be with the kids, so it's effectively interrupting their ability
Speaker 1: to have contact with your children, right. I'm really hoping
Speaker 1: and praying, yeah, that this gets resolved for you and
Speaker 1: for your children. I feel like every child needs their
Speaker 1: mom and they're dad, so I'm really hoping that that
Speaker 1: happens for you. Thank you so much. Listen and Dr Amy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you guys. You guys can sit back. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming to having your testimony. I'm inviting
Speaker 1: you all because we're doing baby facing teddy rally versus tour.
Speaker 1: Oh No, okay, you gotta let us know to join
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