1 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: It is true. If you live your life detached from 2 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: people and you never ever need anybody, or get close 3 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: to anybody or depend on anybody, you will probably have 4 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: an easier life. You will not have as much pain. Yeah, 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: easy like your life will probably have less like pain 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: in it, you know, because you're not going to be 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: as attached. You don't ever have to suffer a loss. 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: But I think the question really ask yourself is are 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: you looking for an easy life or like more of 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: a meaningful life. Welcome back and welcome to You Need 11 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: Therapy podcast. I am your host, Cat, And okay, we 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: are coming all the way back around to the first 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: episode because today we are talking about attachment styles and 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: that is probably now umber one most requested, most talked about, 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: most commented on, all of the things topic that I 16 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: get from you guys, And I love that because I 17 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: am an attachment focused human and in my work I 18 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: based like everything off of attachment theory. I look at 19 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: everything through a lens of attachment and it has helped 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: me help other people learn they're blind spots, relearn patterns 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: and beliefs, and understand themselves so much better. So if 22 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: you don't know what attachment theory is one I want 23 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: you guys to go back and listen to the very 24 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: first episode. Give me some grace on the fact that 25 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: I really didn't know what I was doing or how 26 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: to really lead a conversation on a podcast. But I 27 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: think I did an okay job. But that will give 28 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: you the behind the scenes info. Today, me and my 29 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: friend Megan go into just the insecure types of attachment, 30 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: and that's the two of them. We go into two 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: of them, avoidant and anxious, and it we go in 32 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: a little bit more detail. Abviously, we're going to do 33 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: more episodes like this, so just hold on. But I'm 34 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: excited for you guys to hear this, and I hope 35 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: you guys understand some of this and it hits sits 36 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 1: with you well, and it helps you understand yourself a 37 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: little better. UM. Always take this stuff like ounce by ounce, 38 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: like it doesn't have to be like a hundred thou 39 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: pounds weighing on you after you get all this information, 40 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: because it is a lot, and if it feels heavy 41 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: or it feels a lot, or your mind is going 42 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: a million different ways, reach out to somebody and talk 43 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: about it. Because this information to me feels very UM simple, 44 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: and it feels very like almost like I'm desensitized to 45 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: it because it's what I work with all day, every day. 46 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: But if it's new information to you, it can kind 47 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: of signal some thoughts and signals some like you know, 48 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: lightbulb moments that might feel like a lot. So if 49 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: this stuff is hitting you, I suggest, hey, go talk 50 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: to a professional, Go talk to a friend, go talk 51 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: to somebody, say journal, get some of this stuff out. Um. 52 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: As always, you can follow me at cat dot de 53 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: fata on Instagram. You can follow the podcast at at 54 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: you Need Therapy Podcast, and you can join our self 55 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 1: Love Club, which is a newsletter that I sent out 56 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: every single Monday when a new episode drops, and you 57 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: can sign up for that on our website at you 58 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: Need Therapy podcast dot com. And uh again, I want 59 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: to say an extra special thank you for my friend Megan, 60 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: who was on this episode with me. And without keeping 61 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: guys waiting any longer here, it's one of my favorite 62 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: episodes ever, my conversation on attachment with Megan. Okay, you guys, 63 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: if you're newer, great, if you've been here from the beginning, 64 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: also great. But the first episode I ever recorded was 65 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: an episode I did by myself, and it was on 66 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: attachment theory. And what I did was I took somebody 67 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: who had no idea what it was and kind of 68 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: walked her through the very very very basics of it 69 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: and about the conversation, she kind of identified what she 70 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: felt she was and we kind of talked about what 71 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: that looked like. It's pretty cool. And since then I've 72 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: gotten so many messages, so many questions from friends from 73 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: like random people I don't know, um from clients about 74 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: like that was so helpful and cool. I've never heard 75 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: of that before. I can't figure out what I am. 76 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: And I was like, well, that was just like an 77 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: opening to the story. And so also it's okay if 78 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: you don't know what you are to like it's like 79 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: you don't. Not everybody needs to know their attachment style, 80 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: like everybody needs to know their Instagram number. Not every 81 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: needs to know that, However, I do. Like me and Megan, 82 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: both Megan and I both thought it would be really 83 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: interesting and cool to do a whole episode talking about 84 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: the insecure attachment styles, and so especially because I mean 85 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: thing for you too, I have so many clients who 86 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: either talk about it like I don't know what I am, 87 00:04:57,880 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: or I don't know. I think this would be helpful, 88 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: I've heard about this, or like, I was working with 89 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: a client today who was like, no, I've never heard 90 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: about this, and I know, at least for me, I 91 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: first learned about attachment really in a place where I 92 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: actually understood it when I was in treatment myself, and 93 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: it was such a relief because I was like, holy 94 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: shits balls, there are other people, like there is a 95 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: name for how I am, And if this is what 96 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: they're telling me is true, then that doesn't mean I'm 97 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: super messed up. Like that means there's actually a lot 98 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: of other people who are the same as me, and 99 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: there's actually like a reason and explanations a way out 100 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: of it too. Yeah. Not only does it totally frame 101 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: the way I do work with clients, it also was 102 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: so shame or ucing for me because I'm like, oh, like, wow, 103 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: there's a name for this, and yes, and so what 104 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: I want to do. It's kind of give a brief 105 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: overview for those of you who haven't listened to the 106 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: first episode, a brief overview of what attachment theory is 107 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: and kind of why we use it, and then we'll 108 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: talk about some like I don't know if the right 109 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: words caveats, but some things we want you to know 110 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: before we go into this, and then we're going to 111 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: do two more in depth looks at anxious attachment and 112 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: avoid attachment, and we'll just kind of like piggyback off 113 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: each other in this. We could talk about attachment probably 114 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: for five hours. So yeah, and obviously, like I mean, 115 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: this is the whole thing, even about individual therapy in general, 116 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: but hopefully this is an introduction to y'all and you're like, wow, 117 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: that's some really good information. Helps you get thinking, but 118 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: like we cannot fix or really like you cannot solve 119 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: your attachments injuries on your own. Like the best way 120 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:49,679 Speaker 1: to heal injuries from attachment or insecure attachment is through uh, 121 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: like a positive attachment experience, which is a lot of 122 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: what can happen in therapy. So the other thing is 123 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: is like, you know, get your information on attachment, listen 124 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: to the podcast, read book, that sort of thing. But 125 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,679 Speaker 1: it also is a thing also where we could explain 126 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: to you all day how to ride a bike, but 127 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: you're not going to know how unless you actually go 128 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: ride in it. And yots were actually going to therapy 129 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: or getting in some sort of relationship that can help 130 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: you heal the injuries that you've suffered. Is like really 131 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: the path to healing, which probably might not make sense 132 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: to you yet if you don't know what attachment is. 133 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: But I'm glad you said that, and we'll say more 134 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: on that at the end as well. Before we started, 135 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: I'm just going to do a very brief This is 136 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: a very briefiation of what attachment theory is. But attachment 137 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: theory is a school of thought that has been developed. 138 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: It started by being developed by a guy named John 139 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: Bowlby and since has had a lot of influence from 140 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: other people, one including Mary Ainsworth who actually added a 141 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: lot of good information, and then Dan Seago more recently. 142 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: All of that probably means nothing to you, guys. I 143 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: just wanted to say this is my information. We did 144 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: not we did not write this theory at all, but 145 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: this is the framework in which I and Megan view 146 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: most of, if not all, of our clients and kind 147 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: of how to kind of see where they how they developed, 148 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: and then what we need to do and in order 149 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: to help heal some of their wounds. So attachment theory 150 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: basically says, and feel free to say jump in here, Megan, 151 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: But it basically says that like our earliest experiences and 152 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: relationships have the greatest effect on developing kind of how 153 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: we view the world, how we view relationships, and how 154 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: we get our needs met and based on how our 155 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: needs are met as children and babies, first and foremost, 156 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: we adjust our needs or our attachment to our needs 157 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: in order to feel safe or I struggle saying this 158 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: word secure even if you don't feel secure or get 159 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: your own needs met. I mean, the thing about this 160 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: is that, like when we jump into talking about the 161 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: insecure attachment styles, which are anxious and avoidant, like these 162 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: are strategies for the ways that we do relationship with people, 163 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: so they have there's a reason that this is the 164 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: way you do it. It's a strategy for doing relationship 165 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: that keeps you safe and also probably keeps you pretty disconnected. 166 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: But I think it's important to know this isn't just like, oh, 167 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with you, let's fix it. It's a 168 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: strategy survival, learn to survive in relationship, and which I'm 169 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: always like, humans are so smart. It's like we are 170 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: so smart. So basically, the theory in in the most 171 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: basic of terms, says that humans are born help us 172 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: and hardwired to search to attach to caregivers to get 173 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: their needs met. Usually this would be like your mom, 174 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: but it could be your dad, or it could be 175 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 1: whatever person is close to you, whoever is providing. It 176 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: can be yeah, I mean I get people who are 177 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: like but I had a nanny and if you're concussion 178 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: and got yeah, we'll have to figure out what this 179 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 1: looks like for you. Or I had a grandparent lived 180 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: next door. So it's hard to name one person. Yeah. 181 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: And so if your needs were met with success and 182 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: seventy of the time, which is like a heart, how 183 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: do you know what the percentages? But like basically, if 184 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: the majority, over the majority of the time, your needs 185 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: and your cries for attention and love and support were met, 186 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: you would develop it's called a secure attachment. If they 187 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: were not met, you would develop what it's called insecure attachment. 188 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: There are three types. There are two types of organized 189 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 1: insecure attachment, and we're going to talk about those, and 190 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: there's one type of disorganized um insecure attachment and we're 191 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: not going to talk about that one, right, And I 192 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: think it's also like, let's talk a little bit about 193 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 1: when we say the word needs, like I often have 194 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: clients who are like, oh, yeah, my parents gave me 195 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: everything they needed. You know, they weren't that bad. They 196 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: never like hit me or anything. I'm like, okay, if 197 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: the is that you weren't never hit you, like, whoa, 198 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: you know we're starting. So the one of the best 199 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: like studies I like on attachment is the one with 200 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: the wire There. Somebody did a study I don't even 201 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: know who with two gorillas and one of the gorillas 202 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: was a wire just like totally wires and um, but 203 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: it had milk like for the baby gorillas to drink 204 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: out of. And then the other gorilla that they made, 205 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: the mock gorilla um was warm, like it had warmth 206 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: and it had fur and it had like all of 207 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 1: the kind of makings of a real life gorilla, but 208 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: it didn't have any milk. UM. And what they found 209 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 1: in the studies is that like the overwhelming majority of 210 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: the time the baby gorillas went without the milk and 211 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 1: the nutrients from the milk to go be with the 212 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: the fake gorilla that was warm and like nurturing and cuddly, 213 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: and so I think that's really important to think about, 214 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: Like when you're saying like, oh, my parents didn't hit 215 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: me and they gave me like food, clothing, shelter. Like 216 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about needs far beyond that. It's emotional needs. Yeah, 217 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: could they also like when you were crying, Like did 218 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: they just shove a bottle in your mouth? Or were 219 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 1: they also able to like a tune to you and 220 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: nurture you and soothe you? Um? And so I think 221 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: even just helpful to know, like when we're talking about needs, 222 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: we're looking way beyond Maslow's hierarchy of like, yeah, you've 223 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: got food, clothing, shelter and weren't beaten. Yeah, thank you 224 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: for saying that. And what's what I always say to 225 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: people is like we were born to need people. We 226 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: were born to connect. You were born attached to your 227 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,599 Speaker 1: mother when you came out of her womb, like you 228 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: you had to be cut apart literally, So it's like 229 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: we were born to connect. And something that is so 230 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: interesting to me is that humans, out of any other species, 231 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: have the longest period where they're vulnerable and kind of 232 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,719 Speaker 1: like rely on um, other people to help meet all 233 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: of their needs. Um, we're the only mammal species who 234 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,599 Speaker 1: have like no form of protection when you're born, Like, 235 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: if you think about it, I don't know. I used 236 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: to really love giraffes and like baby giraffes come out 237 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: of the womb and they can run. Yeah, you can 238 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: watch draft video birth video, and we can't even walk, 239 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: but yeah we can. We can't crawl, we can't walk. 240 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: We have zero ability to protect ourselves. I didn't that's 241 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: so interesting. So okay, let's describe Secure first really quickly, 242 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: and then there's a couple of things I want to 243 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 1: say before we get into the insecuritys sets sound. Do 244 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 1: you want to describe Secure or do you want me to? 245 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I think it's okay going how 246 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: we've done it is that what do you mean you 247 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: can lead? And then all that okay, Secure that is 248 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: anywhere between fifty and of humans, which is so can 249 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: I just say, I mean, I know that statistic, but 250 00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: that actually gives me a lot of hope for the world. 251 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: I know some people might think to themselves like, like, 252 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,839 Speaker 1: you know, glass half empty, But to me, I'm like, WHOA, 253 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: I did not know it was that high. Um. I 254 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: just learned that this week when we were kind of 255 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: preparing for the episode, And so I think I looked 256 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: through the world with like a much different lens and like, 257 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: and I think people are more attached and I thought 258 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: there were there were more there's more secure people out 259 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: there than I imagine. You know, it's interesting in different 260 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: experiences because when I learned about this, I am a 261 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: person who like memorizes facts for tests and not like 262 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: understands the concepts. So like I could memorize the percentages 263 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: of everything, but um, so I remember that sticking out 264 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: to me, and at the same time, I was like, 265 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: there's no way that's true. Yeah, I feel the same. Yeah, okay, 266 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: I still do. Like I'm like, oh, that's really hopeful, 267 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: but I'm like, how and yeah, I think that will 268 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: make more sense when once we describe how we view 269 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: a lot of these things. But per the research present 270 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: um and these um are they like babies and infants 271 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: that experience a sense of security and safety with their caregiver. 272 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: The mom shows up basically or whoever it is shows up. 273 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: They grow up with a belief that people are good. Um. 274 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: They believe their partners are going to be loving and 275 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: carrying to them. They're able to communicate their needs well 276 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: without a lot of hesitation and insecurity Um, they're not 277 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:31,119 Speaker 1: overly sensitive. They are not overly sensitive about being rejected, 278 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: which I'd say that with a caveat everybody has it 279 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: a tinge of sensitivity to that, because I don't think 280 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: it would be a little bit crazy if nobody if 281 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: somebody was like, I don't care about being rejected. Um. Yeah. 282 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: The biggest thing, even thinking in secure attachment is they 283 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: can face rejection and then self southe and move on, 284 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: whereas some of the more insecure styles, like it's the 285 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: moving on part is the part that doesn't happen well. 286 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: And they what I would see in somebody secure too. 287 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: It's like when you say, I would say they can 288 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: soothe and move on, like somebody who's secure can feel 289 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: pain and then they can lean into other humans rather 290 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: than running away from them, or they can they can 291 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: soothe with the human. They don't soothe by human, like 292 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: the other human dosn't do the soothing for them and 293 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: they don't do it alone. Does that make sense? And 294 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: then um, basically they're like programmed to like believe that 295 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: people are good, Like that's the basis of it, that 296 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: people will be there, they leap good, They are comfortable 297 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: with intimacy, they don't. They're not over shares and they're 298 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: not under shares, right, Like, they can set pretty appropriate boundaries. 299 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: They can respect other people's boundaries. They obviously, like are 300 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: humans too, and so have areas where they're stronger in 301 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: some and not stronger than the other. But I really 302 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: also like the picture of like the secure base of um. 303 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: That's important one of the best pictures I have of 304 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: like because I'm like, well, what does this even look 305 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: like or what does this look like as a child, 306 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: But the child who really was able to create the 307 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: secure attachment if you imagine them on a playground, like 308 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: they go to the playground with their primary attachment figure, 309 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: so mom, dad, grandparent, whatever, and that figure sitting there 310 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 1: like watching them get on the play like the slide 311 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: or whatever, and the kid is sort of like and 312 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: obviously this is a child that's old enough to go 313 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 1: on the slide by themselves or something. But the parents 314 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: sitting there, they're watching them. The child starts to go 315 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: off by themselves to go on the jungle gym, they're 316 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,479 Speaker 1: kind of looking back at mom, and Mom's looking at 317 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: the child, not looking at the phone, not talking on 318 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: the phone, not looking at the book, and Mom's able 319 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: to say to the child, like even verbally or with 320 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: their eyes, like hey, yeah, you're okay. And the child 321 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: goes and then they look back at mom and they're like, 322 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: am I okay? And Mom's like you're okay, and they 323 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: keep going, and they kind of do this dance where 324 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: they're really like continuing to look back at mom and 325 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: see like am I And Mom's like you're okay, and 326 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: they keep going. And then you know, if something happens 327 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: where they're not okay, they can go back to mom 328 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: and Mom can like help them soothe, and then they 329 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: can go back out and explore the world. So you know, 330 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: I almost think like in today's world, or at least 331 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: in the way I grew up, like where independence was 332 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: just like extremely valued. It was like, oh, we want 333 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: to just drop you off of the playground by yourself 334 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: and you can just navigate this by yourself. So even 335 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: the idea of this secure attachment where the parent is 336 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: that attuned and kind of checking in and then you're 337 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: going out and exploring and checking in and going out 338 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: and exploring, I'm like, oh wow, that child actually grows 339 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: up to be more independent than the ones that's just 340 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: dropped off to figure it out by themselves. I think 341 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: it's also important to know there's consistently been shifts in 342 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: how people are telling you to raise your kids, and 343 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: you know, I don't think anybody has ever come up 344 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: with a completely hunderent right to protocol, And especially with technology, 345 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, that's kids are dropped off with a 346 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 1: cell phone, call me if you need me. And it's 347 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: so I don't really want to get into too much 348 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: of that, but it's it's interesting to see the I 349 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: would I would love to see a study of like 350 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: the cot hordes of like the different kinds of attachment 351 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: during different periods of like generations of like what it 352 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: looks like, yeah, because it's like even I'm like you're 353 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: saying independence is highly regarded and interdependence needing somebody else 354 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: is like like what's wrong with you? Which is but 355 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: actually it's sort of like when I had a client 356 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: I feel like recently that was like I don't want 357 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: to be nice to myself because then I'll never change, 358 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh wow, no, actually being nice to 359 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: yourself is how you're going to change. And so it's 360 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: a similar way of like this idea that like actually 361 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: if you do interdependence, which is like showing up being 362 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: able to support meat needs, have needs, those sorts of things, 363 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: it actually makes you far more independent than this like 364 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: other way of just like pull yourself up by your bootstraps, 365 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: like pull yourself up by your bootstraps actually ends up 366 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: creating someone so needy but like detached from the needy 367 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: stuck not know another step, but we'll get into that. 368 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: So I do like how you're talking about how like 369 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: you know, we're constantly evolving, and I remember, like even 370 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: talking to somebody now, the general consensus is like breast 371 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: is best, like the breast of beings your kid. But 372 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: like back in the nineties or late eighties wherever formula 373 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: was coming out and all the advertising was like formula 374 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: is best, um, And so parents are doing the best 375 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: they can with the information they think like at any time, 376 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: and that's constantly changing. Yeah, So that's this basically all 377 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about with Secure, and maybe we 378 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: might talk about it more later. Before we get into this, 379 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 1: there's a couple of things I want to say. One 380 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: of them is going right off of what you just said. 381 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: None of what we're talking about is to like blame 382 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: a parent or a caregiver for screwing up their kids 383 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: exactly because it's first of all, I do believe that everybody, 384 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: for the most part the time, does the best they 385 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: can with what they know. And a lot of the 386 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: like non attunement that we're going to talk about doesn't 387 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: come from a place. If somebody actually just blatantly ignoring 388 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: their kid or blatantly being mean or dismissive of their kid, 389 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: they might just have bad timing. They might be preoccupied 390 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: with other things that they're out of their control. And 391 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: so it's not that these people weren't paying attention, it's 392 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: that they weren't paying attention in the way that the 393 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: kid needed it. Basically not we're not talking about intent, 394 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: we're talking about impact, right, And we're not here to 395 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: judge if anybody's parents is like good, bad, right or wrong, 396 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: Like we all had human parents with gifts and limitations. 397 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: And I'll say that like over and over and over 398 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: again because it's so true. But I will say, like, 399 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: this is the reason why you do your own therapy 400 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: and do your own therapeutic work is because if you 401 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: don't look at where you came from, you will continue 402 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: to repeat the cycles over and over and over again 403 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: through your lack of awareness. It's just like what happens. 404 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: And like, um, somebody who's telling me recently about a 405 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: quote they heard about like we have to defy our 406 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: own parents to actually be able to step into living 407 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: our own lives. And I probably miss quoting that, but 408 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: what they're saying is like, ultimately we need to challenge 409 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: where we came from and like take what works for 410 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: us and leave the rest and go on. But if 411 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: we never sought to evaluate that, you're just can repeat 412 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: it right, right, and we'll talk more at the end 413 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 1: about because what what is true is that this isn't static, 414 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: so it's very fluid and you can like move back 415 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: and forth in like your attachment. You can your attachment 416 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: can change, and it can change for the better. And 417 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: so if you are yea, which yeah, thank god, and 418 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: if you identify with some of these insecure traits in well, 419 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: I want to offer you is like hope and the 420 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: fact that like awareness is the first step to anything. 421 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: And um, Dan Segel, who is somebody who's done a 422 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: lot of research and writing and just really great stuff 423 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: with attachment theory, he said, if I was going to 424 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 1: say this at the end, but I'm gonna say it now. 425 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: If you can make sense of your attachment wound, you 426 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: can have a better chance of not continuing the narrative. Perfect. 427 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: That's what I meant Earlier, he said, we're meaning making people, 428 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: and so we create internal narratives. In order to create change, 429 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: we first must I said this, this is Catherine, And 430 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 1: first we must find awareness of the problem. Then create 431 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: new understanding of what happened. Because humans are meaning making, 432 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: we will make meaning out of anything to survive and 433 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: to move forward. And so what we're telling you is 434 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: that you have the opportunity to create a new story. 435 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: You can realize that maybe the story you told yourself 436 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: when you're younger wasn't true, and mom wasn't ignoring you 437 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: because you're whatever it is that you came up with. 438 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: It could have been something else, or maybe she wasn't 439 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 1: even ignoring you. That's just how you felt. And um, yeah, 440 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: and so what did he say that I know? He said, 441 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: having difficult experiences early in life is less important than 442 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: whether we found a new way to make sense of 443 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 1: how those experiences affected us. Making sense as a sort 444 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: of strength and resilience. Making sense is essential to our 445 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: well being and happiness, and so we're offering you a 446 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: way to make sense and because it's then that you 447 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: get to do something differently, like I still have so 448 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: much of my own attachment stuff that shows up to 449 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: my own relationship. And we'll get into this when we're 450 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: talking more about it. But when I start to notice, 451 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: like when I start to have a thought of like, oh, well, 452 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: I don't really care about this person, I don't really 453 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: need this person, I can say to myself because I 454 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: know where that comes from, like, hey, Megan, like that's 455 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: probably not really how you feel, um, And it seems 456 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: like you might be kind of hurt right now or 457 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: something's going on. So what do you need to do 458 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: and where can you get space to kind of navigate that? 459 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: Which that's the hope is like we don't ideally you 460 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: would move towards being more secure, but the way that 461 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: you do that is not by like getting rid of however, 462 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: you started out by being able to notice it and 463 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 1: then help yourself in that. Yeah. So before we get 464 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: into each one kind of what there's a couple of 465 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: things I just want to go through And one is 466 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: kind of what we're talking about now. This is not research. 467 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: This is the school of cat and Megan's from well, 468 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: and I guess I'll speak for myself and if you can, okay, 469 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: So this is my my interpretation of these things based 470 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 1: on my own work as being a therapist and working 471 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: with the hundred of hundreds of clients that I've seen. 472 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: I did not read this in a book. I think 473 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: therapists would also. Some therapists would agree with this, But 474 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: I don't always think You're not always going to be 475 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: a hundred avoidant, a D anxious, a D secure, Like 476 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: that's not really what I ever see. Would you hear 477 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: these things, you are probably not going to say every 478 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: single thing that we say about it fits for you, 479 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: and you might fit with parts of each attachment style. 480 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: And I was talking to Megan before and I was like, 481 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: I wish people would view this like they view the Inniagram. 482 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: It's how like when you go through the Instagram, people 483 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: will tell you over and over you will have traits 484 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: of each one. It's not about the traits you have, 485 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: it's why you do the behaviors. And so as you 486 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: kind of listen to us talk about this, I want 487 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: to encourage you to listen to more of like the 488 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: unconscious motivation of your behavior that's going to lead you 489 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: to your attachment style. Um. And similar to the Instagram, 490 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: the hope is like even with Instagram, the point of 491 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 1: knowing whatever number you are isn't so you can be like, um, 492 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: seven awesome. It's like, okay, what number do you move 493 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: towards in health? And how can you move that direction? 494 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: And so similarly like this is like yeah, I lean 495 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: avoidant or II lean anxious, But it's like, okay, great, 496 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: now that we know that, how do you move towards 497 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 1: more security for yourself? And the truth about the which 498 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 1: I feel like this is like a hot point for 499 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: me because I feel like and this is my experience 500 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: because I lean more towards anxious. So I would love 501 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: to hear you, but it is such a hot point 502 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: to me when that people don't see so much that 503 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: the underpinnings of both are the same feelings. The feelings 504 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 1: are exactly the same. So there's there's a fear of 505 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: abandonment and in rejection and both both insecure styles. Now 506 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: how you deal with it is different. So it's like 507 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: what you said the other day, like the wrapping paper 508 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: is different inside. If you're on an If you have 509 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: an insecure attachment, you fear abandonment and rejection, no matter 510 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: if you're avoidant or anxious. So no, why is better 511 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: than the other. Right, It's like it's we talked about 512 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: this in so many other episodes too. It's like some 513 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: things just look more glamorous than others, like societally, so 514 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: like we've talked about this with eating disorders. It's like, oh, 515 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: in some ways, like anorexia is praised over Bolivia, but 516 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: it's like, what, there's dysfunction in both. So yeah, it's 517 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: really important in this because I mean, I'll say I 518 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: think the anxious people of the world get the bad 519 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 1: rap or it's like they're crazy, but the avoidance just 520 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 1: sort of get like they're independent, they're praised, they can 521 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: be more praise. Nobody's praised for being ancient or like 522 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: the avoidant people like, yeah, we're better at looking like 523 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: we have it all together, but underneath, it's like both people. 524 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: I mean, even research like when they did this there's 525 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: a study on um of attachment with babies, and what 526 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: they found is they tested the cortisol level and the 527 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: anxious baby um and in the avoidant baby and the 528 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: cortisol level, which is a stress hormone, is exactly the 529 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: same in both baby, even though the anxious baby was 530 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: the one that kept crying, crying, crying, couldn't be soothed, 531 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: and the avoided baby is the one that actually played 532 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: looking like calmly by itself. The stress hormone, the cortisol levels, 533 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: and both babies, one screaming one playing by itself quietly 534 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: was the same. You know what, I want to say 535 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: this before and then we'll go into talk about avoidance, 536 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna leave out as many details as i can. 537 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: But um, I think that is wildly fascinating because I 538 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: remember I might have said this on a podcast before, 539 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: but I remember one time being in here with you 540 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: and processing something in my life and saying, it sucks 541 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: so bad that I have to feel like this, and 542 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: that person is fine. And you said to me, because 543 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: the person has talking, I have I leaned towards anxious 544 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: and this person, um, we assume leads towards avoidance. And 545 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: you said, I don't think that's really what's happening. And 546 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: she was like, really, it's like you have you can 547 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: have gratitude for being able to feel and this person 548 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: is like cut off, like they don't even they're feeling, 549 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: but they don't know at all, I don't know. They 550 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: think they're fine. And so that was offered me like hope, 551 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: and like, oh, I don't have the short end of 552 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: the stick. I might not like the stick I have, 553 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: but I don't have the short end. Yeah, like the 554 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: other person. And I'm glad you remember me saying that, 555 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: because I'm like, also, the other person has probably run 556 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: to the next extreme thing they need to continue to 557 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: like numb out and avoid their lives, and whether that's 558 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: work or something like more severe or like alcohol or 559 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: drugs or whatever they run to. Whereas like, yeah, you're 560 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: experiencing all the pain and the emotions of the event. Um. 561 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: And I was thinking to myself even when I was 562 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: telling you that, like, gosh, there's a part of me 563 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: that's like deeply grateful that I would not be where 564 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: you are, But there's another part of me that's like, man, 565 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: I wish I could be. Yeah, So let's get into 566 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: avoidant slash dismissive attachment. Now, well we already said this, 567 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: but I lean more towards anxious and Megan leads leans 568 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: more towards avoidance. So you might offer some more experience 569 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: and what some of this feels like, because I will 570 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: describe it and you might be able to give some 571 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: personal I have a lot of experiment experience with dating 572 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: these people because, as you know, like our wounds bit 573 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: each other so well. So an anxious person like they 574 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: need people to feel secure. An avoidant person kind of 575 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: needs somebody to need them so they don't have to 576 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: need and so we fit so well. However, what happens 577 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: is eventually the avoidant person is like, oh my god, 578 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: this isn't what I signed up for, and then so 579 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: they run away and then I'm left here being like, 580 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: but we'll get more into that, which is good. And 581 00:31:54,680 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: I actually I lean actually mostly secure now, um, but 582 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: if I do lean toward one side, it's definitely avoidant. 583 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: And history just wanted to make sure that you guys 584 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: knew that your therapist is healthy, Yeah, is secure? Like, um, 585 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: please I'll send you. I'll show you the bill of 586 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: how much money has spent in own therapy and how 587 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: many hours to earn secure attachment. But yeah, I lean 588 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: avoidance and I have actually historically dated other avoidance, which 589 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: isn't super uncommon, but that's sort of the experience I have. 590 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: And it's funny because even when I was dating Eric 591 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: early on, the number one thing I was looking for 592 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: was like what his attachment style was, And I was like, ship, 593 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: I think he actually might be secure, But I also 594 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: think I thought they only like five or some of 595 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: the world had secure attachment. Well, here we are. That's 596 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: actually disorganized organized. Okay, So a dismissive or avoidant attachment 597 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: style develops when, like as a baby, it's like you 598 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: cry and nobody notices, so you feel internally rejected or 599 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: pushed away. Kind of what you're being taught is your 600 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: distress pushes people away, and so you learn to stop 601 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: showing signals of distress. Now we've already said this does 602 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: not mean that your parents or the caregivers were straight 603 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: up ignoring you, Like there could be a lot of 604 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: stuff going on. Yeah, like news flash, your parents also 605 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: have an attachment style. Um so also, I mean even 606 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: a lot of times, like the parent who's unable to 607 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: meet the child's needs, like they very well may have 608 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: an avoidant attachment style. That's also like I don't want 609 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: somebody to need me too much or like consume me 610 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: or get too close and so they're obviously sending the 611 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: same signal to the child of like hey, you know, 612 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: take care of yourself, and like let's put into perspective 613 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: to like what's going on in the world. Maybe there 614 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: you're going through a recession and somebody's preoccupied with jobs 615 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: or work. Maybe a parent is going through to pression, 616 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: maybe there's a death in the family, maybe there's a disaster, 617 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: or maybe I mean we talked about in one episode, 618 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: like maybe you're one of your parents is in the military, 619 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: and so there's a lot of things that could go on, 620 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: and I just so just again, I'm going to kind 621 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: of dig that hole and for that, um, that's a plug. Also, 622 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: if you want to know specifically what was happening in 623 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: your home, maybe you go to your own therapy and 624 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: you can explore that with the therapist. So basically, if 625 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: your needs were over and over not responded to, you're 626 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: gonna learn to bypass your distress because you're learning that 627 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't help you and you just get let down. 628 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: So this attachment style, you basically are taught to not hope, 629 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: which we talked a lot about in the last episode 630 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: hope because you've also learned to shut your needs down 631 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: to stay close enough to the parents. So if you 632 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: like this child, this baby learns if we're talking about 633 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: baby or toddler, whatever, they learned, like, oh, if I'm 634 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: too needy mom or dad, they actually go away from me. 635 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: But if I out down my needs and like I 636 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: don't cry when I get her, or I don't cry 637 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: when I'm in need, then mom or dad may not 638 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 1: meet my need, but they also don't go away from me, 639 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: so they stay closer by. And I'd rather have that 640 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 1: closeness than nothing. And so basically these people are hiding 641 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: their expression of attachment. And when I say expression of attachment, 642 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: that's like um expression of your need. And I guess 643 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 1: like crying, looking, wanting, reaching, there's no expression of it. 644 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: So it's like I stay still. The reality is you 645 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: always need it, you always need it, but you hide it. 646 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 1: And I think what happens. It becomes something that you're 647 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: unaware of. At some point, Yeah, you have to disconnect 648 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: from the need you have, Like the avoidant person disconnects 649 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: from their needs, They disconnect from their vulnerability, They disconnect 650 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: from their desire and their feelings because that is literally 651 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: what saved them. That's the lifesaver that allowed them to 652 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: and continue used to allow them even as adults to 653 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: get close but not too close. And so yeah, what 654 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: ends up happening is that it's not like that they 655 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: just don't have the need for connection or they don't 656 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: have the need for expression. They've just blunted it or 657 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 1: numbed it out so far that it really feels that way. Yeah, 658 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: And so typically like at some point, and this is 659 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: when I typically see the person in my office, or 660 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: maybe you end up see him in their office. It's 661 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: like they get to a place where they feel so 662 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: disconnected in relationship that they can't necessarily name what they 663 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: need or name that they even want it. But it's 664 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: just like most of the time they show up and 665 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: they're just like work is great, but something is off, 666 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: or a lot of times which to talk about, like 667 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: what they look like as clients. Yeah, they're the client 668 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: that comes in and they're like I don't really know 669 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: why I'm here, and I'm like, okay, cool, and we'll 670 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,839 Speaker 1: we'll figure it out. But they a lot of times 671 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: they'll come because a spouse or partner told them to 672 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: um and once they get into doing the work, and 673 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: this is the thing I mean when I might be 674 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 1: getting ahead of myself, but it's like once they start 675 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: getting into the work and they start like opening up 676 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: those needs, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, 677 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 1: whoa what I didn't ask for this, I did not 678 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: ask for this. You're no, no, no, And so it 679 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: almost feels like sometimes that's the therapist. It's like I'm 680 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: bothering them, Like they're annoyed to be around me. They're 681 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: annoyed by the questions I'm asking. They're annoyed by me 682 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: trying to get to know them because they're starting to 683 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: get close to me emotionally. Yeah, the resistance is there. 684 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: I mean I remember even and so much of my 685 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: own therapy. Internally, I loved going like somewhere inside of 686 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: me and I couldn't wait for my next appointment, But 687 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: externally I really acted like put off that I had 688 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: to be there. And it's like everybody intruding on your life. Yeah, 689 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: everybody knew. I mean I was a willing, consenting adult, 690 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: Like I was dragging myself to therapy and never missed 691 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: an appointment, So was like that was obviously present, but 692 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 1: I still like had to create the distance to act 693 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: like I didn't want to be there, to act like 694 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: the other person was like somehow making me come. Well, 695 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: it's like, I'm good like these If these other people 696 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: would fix their ship, I would be fine. So it's 697 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: a lot of times it's people coming into the therapy 698 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 1: office and being saying that exact thing, like with all 699 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: this stuff that would they would just take care of 700 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: their stuff, I'd be okay. But I don't know how 701 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: to deal with the fact that they won't take care 702 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: of their stuff. And so it's it's like this, like 703 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 1: I'm fine, I'm independent, I've got my stuff together. It's 704 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: everybody else that has got the problem. And I say this, 705 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: these people aren't unkind, and I don't think that they 706 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: have no awareness that they're like doing that right. And typically, um, 707 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: I don't know the research do you know on like 708 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: our men typically more avoidant or is that just some 709 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: sort of stereotype. I don't even want to say what 710 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: I think because I think that I'm just I know 711 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: that might just be. I mean, I'm a woman and 712 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,760 Speaker 1: I lean avoidance, so I say that. But it seems 713 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: that at least most of the men I work with 714 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: in my office seem more avoidantly leaning um. And then 715 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: it does typically like the avoidant male or female comes 716 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: in and they're talking about how need either partner is 717 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: or how much they neither partner to change, or they're 718 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 1: depressed or whatever, and so some of the work like 719 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: that's what that client is talking about. If I could 720 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: just get with somebody who was more confident, then life 721 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: would be okay. And it's like, okay, well, let's look 722 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: at what draws you to that person, because that person 723 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: probably has an external expression of your internal neediness. So 724 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: I think the other we didn't touch on this, but 725 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: the other important thing to talk about in terms of 726 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: like how does this develop? Is one of my favorite things. 727 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: I'll talk about this forever never Never is the phrase 728 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,760 Speaker 1: a meshment um. I think I thought it was another 729 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: episode how I Love addiction. I couldn't spell anagement. Yes, 730 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: I started to bring that back up. That's why them. Yes, 731 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: I can handle being made fun of it. But anyway, 732 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: anagement is when the parents needs the child ends up 733 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: taking care of the parents needs. Um. And so this 734 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: also can really create the avoidant attachment style because maybe 735 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: your mom or your dad or your attachment figure was 736 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: always present, like maybe they physically were around um and actually, 737 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: like if you picture like the helicopter parent or something 738 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: like that, or even a lesser degree, So your parent 739 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 1: is around and they are coming to you, but what 740 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: they're doing most of the time is trying to meet 741 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 1: their own needs through you. And so even though it 742 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,759 Speaker 1: was like, oh no, my mom always did this or 743 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: my mom always did that, the question I would really 744 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: ask is like, yeah, but is that what you needed? 745 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 1: Or was that like mom trying to soothe herself by 746 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 1: using you? Yes, so which that is such you might 747 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,839 Speaker 1: have to rewind that and listen to it again because 748 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: it's confusing, And I think the thing to think about. 749 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: The thing to think about is not if they were present, 750 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: if they were attuned to you, if you not if 751 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,919 Speaker 1: they were present, if you were getting what you need. 752 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 1: I don't know how many clients I have sat with 753 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: and they're like, but they told me they loved me, 754 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: but they gave me hugs, And I'm like, when did 755 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 1: they give you hugs? When did they tell you that 756 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: they loved you? Because anybody can say anything, but when 757 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,760 Speaker 1: you reached out for them and when you needed something, 758 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,799 Speaker 1: were they able to provide you that? And did they 759 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: hear your own boundary back because like maybe mom needed 760 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: a hug, but you didn't need a hug, like the example. Thankfully, 761 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,319 Speaker 1: I have a friend who's a behavior analyst and works 762 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: a lot with kids, and she talked about she was 763 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 1: teaching me about boundaries with kids, um, and so I 764 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 1: think about even like my nieces three three and a half, 765 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,879 Speaker 1: and um, when I come to see her or when 766 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: I leave, my brother is like, hey, give your aunt 767 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: Meg a hug. And I'm that's fine, and that's like 768 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: so culturally like what we do. But of course she's 769 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: three and a half. So sometimes she's like no, and 770 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: instead of being like no, she has to give me 771 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: a hug. I'm like okay, Like do you want to 772 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 1: high five? And she's like no, And I'm like, okay, 773 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: do you want to fist bump? And sometimes she'll be 774 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: like yeah. But if she's like no, I'm like okay, 775 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: if you want to like zap pinkies and she's like no, 776 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: then I'm like okay, cool, Like let's just wave at 777 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 1: each other or whatever. So I'm really like, even though 778 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: there's a part of me that's like, oh, I kind 779 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: of want to hug, there's another part of me. It's 780 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: like I trust her own ability to know what she 781 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: wants and her own boundary. And so if I were 782 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: to hug her in that moment when she's saying, no, 783 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,880 Speaker 1: that's about me, like that's not for her. And so 784 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,839 Speaker 1: even thinking about that is like our parents again, we're 785 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 1: doing the best they could. But like just because mom 786 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: or dad gave you a hug, or just because they 787 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:02,880 Speaker 1: said that they loved you, that doesn't mean that's what 788 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,959 Speaker 1: you needed. Necessarily, you could have needed space. They're they're 789 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 1: still dismissing you. They're dismissing your boundary. So thank you 790 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 1: for saying that. Um So I want to talk more 791 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: about what this looks like in adults. So think about 792 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:22,240 Speaker 1: somebody kind of almost like zipping up themselves. It's almost 793 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: like closed offulness me. Those those people that I just 794 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: kind of want to poke. I'm like, I just want 795 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: to see what it's in there. It's like what's going on. 796 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,759 Speaker 1: And these people and people that are basically like I 797 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 1: don't need you, they're usually pretty. I mean, I mean, 798 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: I guess I can't really say that, but they look 799 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,760 Speaker 1: successful and they look okay, they look fine, especially because 800 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 1: our society values that so these people won't ask for help. Um, 801 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,359 Speaker 1: they don't really rely on a lot of other people. Um, 802 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,280 Speaker 1: they want, they want other people, but they have learned 803 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,719 Speaker 1: not to rely on them. So they literally again detached 804 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,880 Speaker 1: from the idea that they need other people. You know 805 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: what this makes me think of an Instagram too, how 806 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: in the sense that they they want other people's appreciation 807 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,440 Speaker 1: of them. They appreciate them, but they will go out 808 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 1: and meet everybody else's needs. But really what they want 809 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 1: is to feel loved. But I'm going to go meet 810 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: everybody else's needs. I'm fine, I got together. I'm not 811 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: asking for help. I'm going to do for you, right, 812 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 1: even though I think I don't know if this is 813 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 1: your experience, but most Instagram twos I find to be 814 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,279 Speaker 1: more anxiously attached. Well, sure, but I see what you mean. 815 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I could see I can argue that both, 816 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,399 Speaker 1: but but I see what you mean in the sense 817 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,960 Speaker 1: of like, even if regardless of their attachment style, it's like, oh, 818 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,360 Speaker 1: I'm the psychod at meeting everybody else's needs, but really, internally, 819 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 1: I'm desperately hoping you'll meet mine. Yeah, And so the 820 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: avoidance is similar in that way, except they're probably not 821 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: meeting other people's needs on the outside. No, they're just 822 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 1: internally like doing this dance with you where it's like 823 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,879 Speaker 1: I don't have needs, but I so many needs. Right. Yeah, 824 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,319 Speaker 1: these people will basically they don't rely on anybody. They 825 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 1: deactivate their distress and needs basically just like a button. 826 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 1: It's like deactivated. The problem is you don't have a 827 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: button like that. Instead of you're finding like you don't 828 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: have a deactivation. You thought you did, and a lot 829 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,719 Speaker 1: of people are thinking like I do, you don't. These 830 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:27,440 Speaker 1: are people that will selp soothe, so autoregulation. They will 831 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,560 Speaker 1: go and take care of themselves in a way by themselves. 832 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,760 Speaker 1: So that is could be think of drinking, video games, 833 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: anything on a screen, work, a lot of that kind 834 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: of exercise, what that. But I think the important thing 835 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 1: to see in that, especially as a person who's had 836 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:51,359 Speaker 1: many of those things, is actually that is the attachment figure. Yeah, 837 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: the drinking. So like I know for me, it's like 838 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: if I have some sort of distress and I'm running 839 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: to work or a substance of food or whatever, I mean, 840 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: fill in any for anybody that thing of choice, the 841 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: avoidant person is going to run to whatever that like 842 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: object is because that is how they self soothe versus 843 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,839 Speaker 1: when we get into the anxious, the anxious person runs 844 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: towards the person. Um. So even I remember doing some 845 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 1: of my own work and thinking to myself, like I'm 846 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: better because I'm avoidant, and like, why can't essentially why 847 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 1: can't Eric be more like me and have no needs, 848 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,040 Speaker 1: which would be not helpful. But my therapist at the 849 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: time was like, oh no, no, no, Like you just 850 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,600 Speaker 1: run to things outside of the relationship, and he's moving 851 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,360 Speaker 1: towards you. And so for all those avoidance out there 852 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,279 Speaker 1: who think you're better than like the anxious people of 853 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 1: the world, it's like I would really look at what 854 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,760 Speaker 1: are you running to because that's probably what you're attached 855 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,239 Speaker 1: to and how you've learned to self soothe. And do 856 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,280 Speaker 1: you want to be attached to that right? Like, because 857 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 1: that's really safe, Like alcohol is really safe. It will 858 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,759 Speaker 1: always be there for you. It won't judge you, like 859 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 1: it might cause you a lot of harm. You're eating disorder. 860 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 1: You're eating disorder like your work. Oh my gosh, like 861 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 1: so so such a nice high, um, but really like 862 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: it can't meet your legitimate needs. Yeah, this is the 863 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: thing and this is where we can have so much 864 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: empathy for any insecure attachment. It's like, for somebody who 865 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:25,720 Speaker 1: is avoidant, needing is one of the most terrifying things 866 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,320 Speaker 1: you can do, because again, you were taught when you 867 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:35,640 Speaker 1: need something or someone, it goes away. So the idea 868 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: of interdependence, which is needing other people, which is how 869 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:43,279 Speaker 1: we were created to be, is not in your vocabulary. 870 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,840 Speaker 1: So they think to themselves, what happens if I need people, 871 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 1: I will get hurt. Therefore I do not need anyone else, right, 872 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 1: which even goes into like a lot of the healing 873 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,880 Speaker 1: for people who do lean more avoidant is like a 874 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,800 Speaker 1: more a secure relationship, whether that's therapeutically or somebody outside. 875 00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,920 Speaker 1: But it's also really a boundary issue because part of 876 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: it is like, oh my gosh, if I allow myself 877 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 1: to need, like I'm so thirsty, I will never like 878 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,239 Speaker 1: I will be totally consumed by my own need and 879 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,120 Speaker 1: like this person like I'll need them so much, and 880 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,600 Speaker 1: then what if something happens to them, like I'll be 881 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: We'll be okay, right, and then same is true. The 882 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: other way is like, oh, if I let this person 883 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 1: need me, they'll totally consume me and take me over. 884 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,840 Speaker 1: So you're at both ends of the spectrum of like 885 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,360 Speaker 1: I'm either going to have no boundary for myself and 886 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,520 Speaker 1: like totally like become so needy I can't function anymore, 887 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,080 Speaker 1: or I'm going to have no boundary and this other 888 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: person is going to consume me. Right, So it's like 889 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:50,279 Speaker 1: a lose lose because making sure other people's need that, 890 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,279 Speaker 1: making sure other people need them more than they need 891 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: others is their defense mechanism. But that will backfire because 892 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 1: once you try to engage in a relationship, there's people 893 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 1: become the avoidance will then become eventually overwhelmed by the 894 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,239 Speaker 1: fact that you set up this way for other people 895 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 1: to need you, like you set it up to fail. 896 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 1: And so in relationships, it's like, Okay, I want you 897 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:14,640 Speaker 1: to be my girlfriend and I want you to be 898 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:16,440 Speaker 1: my boyfriend. I want to be in a relationship to 899 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,040 Speaker 1: with you. And then when that person texts you and 900 00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,760 Speaker 1: it's like why haven't you texted me in two hours, 901 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,560 Speaker 1: they're like gross, Like you are so clingy and annoying. 902 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:27,759 Speaker 1: What is wrong with you that you can't go two 903 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,759 Speaker 1: hours without talking to me? There's something wrong with you? 904 00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:34,440 Speaker 1: Or like plans for there's I want to go somewhere 905 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,799 Speaker 1: for this in two months, and they're like I can't 906 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:39,400 Speaker 1: even think about Like what do you mean you want 907 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:40,799 Speaker 1: to make plans with me two months are you're trying 908 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,200 Speaker 1: to marry me? And it's like no, Like I just 909 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,680 Speaker 1: want to go somewhere for like New Year's or like 910 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:47,880 Speaker 1: I want to go somewhere for my birthday, and like 911 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,000 Speaker 1: I want to I'm a planner and they're like you are. 912 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,960 Speaker 1: Feels like you're putting chains on my legs, which again 913 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,440 Speaker 1: comes back to the boundary thing of like, Okay, the 914 00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:00,320 Speaker 1: other person can text you as much as they and 915 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 1: you know what, you if you trust your own boundaries, 916 00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,920 Speaker 1: you don't have to even judge them. You don't have 917 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:06,879 Speaker 1: to text them back. You can do this on their 918 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:09,719 Speaker 1: your own schedule, and then they can decide if they're 919 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,600 Speaker 1: willing same thing with like a future trip. And this 920 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,160 Speaker 1: is a lot of the work I had to do 921 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:19,359 Speaker 1: because I like, yes, describing me perfectly, um the same thing. 922 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,160 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, you want to plan a trip three 923 00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:22,680 Speaker 1: months from now with me, Like I don't even know 924 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:24,560 Speaker 1: if I'm still going to be dating you in three months. 925 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,520 Speaker 1: And then my work would be like, hey man, oh 926 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,239 Speaker 1: what a scary response. Like you know what, like you 927 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,680 Speaker 1: can decide if you want to go on this, and 928 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,880 Speaker 1: also when you get to three months later, like you 929 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:36,520 Speaker 1: can decide if you want to go then or if 930 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,200 Speaker 1: you need to change your mind. So again it comes 931 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:45,680 Speaker 1: back to like trusting that your own ability to set boundaries. Um. 932 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,920 Speaker 1: So anyway, these people basically say like, screw vulnerability. I 933 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,080 Speaker 1: don't need that. I don't need to be vulnerable. All 934 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,839 Speaker 1: that is going to do is kind of get me hurt. Um. 935 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 1: So they end up just withdrawing. I feel and you 936 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,640 Speaker 1: can speak to this. My experience is that they don't 937 00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:06,120 Speaker 1: perceive themselves holding back. They just perceived themselves not needing 938 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:10,520 Speaker 1: as much as everybody else that's fit for you because 939 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,040 Speaker 1: they don't want to be These people also don't want 940 00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:14,960 Speaker 1: to be alone, Like like I said, they want to 941 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,319 Speaker 1: be in a relationship with you, and then you get 942 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,160 Speaker 1: in it. Like your experience, you wanted to date, you 943 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,600 Speaker 1: were dating, and then once you found somebody that wanted 944 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:24,440 Speaker 1: to date you too, you're like, oh my gosh, she 945 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,560 Speaker 1: wants to hang out with me again. I can't. Yeah, 946 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,640 Speaker 1: Like God bless Eric for like hanging in there because 947 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,120 Speaker 1: in the beginning, Yeah, he would text me, not even 948 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,160 Speaker 1: a lot like Eric is really secure, probably leans a 949 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:39,080 Speaker 1: little anxious. Sorry Eric if you're listening, um, but it's 950 00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,200 Speaker 1: like he would text me and I wouldn't text him 951 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,719 Speaker 1: back for like two days because I and I wasn't 952 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,440 Speaker 1: trying to play some game. Like I really had that 953 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,240 Speaker 1: much inner fear and anxiety, which like I was probably 954 00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,840 Speaker 1: so good at acting like I didn't have. But it 955 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,400 Speaker 1: really took me that long to be like, Okay, I 956 00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,319 Speaker 1: can get back in this. And then I'd get back 957 00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,239 Speaker 1: in it, and I'd be like, oh my gosh, and 958 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:00,880 Speaker 1: then I'd get out, and then I get back in 959 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:02,800 Speaker 1: and then I get out. And that was like what 960 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,600 Speaker 1: I needed to do to learn that I could just 961 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,960 Speaker 1: stay in it. That's so like, God bless you. You 962 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,120 Speaker 1: had to stay in it. And you know what the 963 00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:15,480 Speaker 1: fear I have for the people that don't engage in 964 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,080 Speaker 1: the work and don't do the work is the fact 965 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,959 Speaker 1: that you run away because that person is too much, 966 00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,560 Speaker 1: and you think that because you are not connected to 967 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:30,040 Speaker 1: your own feelings. What's really happening is you're terrified. You 968 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:35,200 Speaker 1: are terrified, and you are yeah, and it's like, if 969 00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:38,280 Speaker 1: you could connect with being scared, you then could connect 970 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,439 Speaker 1: with why you're scared. You're not scared because this person 971 00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,239 Speaker 1: is annoying you and they're going to overtake your life. 972 00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,240 Speaker 1: You're scared because there's a part of you that thinks 973 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,960 Speaker 1: if you start to engage with this person, attached to 974 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:57,600 Speaker 1: this person, they're going to leave you. Yeah. I literally remember, Um, 975 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,200 Speaker 1: I remember what it was like to attach to my 976 00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,680 Speaker 1: own therapist, and then I remember what it was like 977 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,520 Speaker 1: to attach to begin to attach to Eric, And it 978 00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,839 Speaker 1: was a moment of probably the most panic I felt 979 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,719 Speaker 1: in my life, because it wasn't I had no fear 980 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,120 Speaker 1: that the person themselves would leave me. I actually had 981 00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,160 Speaker 1: more of a fear of like they would die and 982 00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:18,440 Speaker 1: so it would be something like outside of their control 983 00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:22,480 Speaker 1: because I knew, like, they're not going to leave me, um, 984 00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,200 Speaker 1: Like I knew that that they we were connected and 985 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,759 Speaker 1: attached enough that something wasn't going to like rupture that necessarily. 986 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,480 Speaker 1: But I literally remember driving and remember where I was, 987 00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,560 Speaker 1: and it was like the most pain I've ever felt 988 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,600 Speaker 1: in my body thinking about like, holy sh it, I 989 00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:42,000 Speaker 1: have finally allowed myself to care about this person, to 990 00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,800 Speaker 1: have needs with this person and what would I do 991 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,960 Speaker 1: if something happened to them? Like I was like, I 992 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,520 Speaker 1: will not be okay. And I remember thinking to myself 993 00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,120 Speaker 1: like the pain of being a therapist. I'm like this 994 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,480 Speaker 1: is why, like this is why I don't want to attach, 995 00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,400 Speaker 1: because like this is what it's like to actually allow 996 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,080 Speaker 1: myself to care about someone and I feel like I'm 997 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:07,279 Speaker 1: gonna die. Yeah, yeah, And thank god you have you 998 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,640 Speaker 1: have the awareness to identify that and put those pieces together. 999 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,880 Speaker 1: And the interesting thing is I want to come back 1000 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,480 Speaker 1: to that idea that the underlying that fear of like 1001 00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 1: somebody's gonna leave. It's the same for both insecure attachments. 1002 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,759 Speaker 1: And you know how a client who is avoidant will 1003 00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,080 Speaker 1: be more about like I'm annoying them, and they'll they'll 1004 00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,239 Speaker 1: be more about like pushing me away, while somebody who's 1005 00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,839 Speaker 1: anxious is going to say more and they're not going 1006 00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,880 Speaker 1: to say that I'm annoying or make kind of passive 1007 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,480 Speaker 1: aggressive comments or just like kind of act like a 1008 00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,680 Speaker 1: stupid and whatever they're going to they're going to over 1009 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:42,799 Speaker 1: and over and over ask me like are you mad 1010 00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,160 Speaker 1: at me? Like if I didn't do homework, like can 1011 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,399 Speaker 1: I still have my session, like or they're always gonna 1012 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:50,080 Speaker 1: They're the kind of client that's always like what do 1013 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:54,000 Speaker 1: I do? What do you think? Like all that stuff 1014 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:58,200 Speaker 1: and that there. But they are definitely the person who says, 1015 00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:01,160 Speaker 1: are you going to leave me? To as the therapist, 1016 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,319 Speaker 1: and it's not the feeling there is no different than 1017 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,960 Speaker 1: the the client that acts like I'm the most on 1018 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,160 Speaker 1: the scum of the earth and I'm ruining their life. 1019 00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,880 Speaker 1: They're pushing me away. Both of the also, both of 1020 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,560 Speaker 1: those strategies are active strategies to push to create space. 1021 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,759 Speaker 1: Like the avoidant person, you can obviously look at them 1022 00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,799 Speaker 1: and say like, oh, they're literally running away like they're 1023 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,279 Speaker 1: creating space. But the anxious person is so wrapped up 1024 00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,279 Speaker 1: in the anxious likeness of it and asking like are 1025 00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:32,800 Speaker 1: we okay? Are we okay? Are you mad at me? 1026 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,000 Speaker 1: That that actually also is creating space because they're not 1027 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:40,600 Speaker 1: connected to their fear of really doing intimacy either, because 1028 00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,359 Speaker 1: that's the thing, like both of them have the both 1029 00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:46,440 Speaker 1: attachment styles have the fear of being abandoned, but the 1030 00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,680 Speaker 1: like surface one from the anxious person on the surface 1031 00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,880 Speaker 1: looks more afraid of being abandoned, but underneath that also 1032 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,640 Speaker 1: lays like a huge fear of actually doing intimacy, whereas 1033 00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,920 Speaker 1: the avoidant person on the surface looks a lot more 1034 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,080 Speaker 1: afraid of doing intimacy, but underneath is the abandonment. So 1035 00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,880 Speaker 1: like these things like are different sides of the same point. 1036 00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,040 Speaker 1: And coming back to your thing about the avoidant person 1037 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,960 Speaker 1: like thinking they have less needs, the anxious or the 1038 00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,759 Speaker 1: avoidant person doesn't have less needs. They meet their needs 1039 00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:22,279 Speaker 1: in different ways. Um. And so similarly, it's like most 1040 00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:24,960 Speaker 1: avoidant people I know are like when I really am 1041 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,200 Speaker 1: looking at them, they really may still continue even when 1042 00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:32,680 Speaker 1: they're secure, to go outside of the relationship to self soothe. Um. 1043 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,400 Speaker 1: And then yeah, it comes into like what if you 1044 00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,080 Speaker 1: are a person who goes outside the relationship to self soothe, 1045 00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,160 Speaker 1: but you're with somebody who wants to self soothe in 1046 00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:43,200 Speaker 1: the relationship, and that's where you just have to navigate that. 1047 00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:45,879 Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean either person is like good or bad. 1048 00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:48,520 Speaker 1: It's like, wow, we have competing needs and we have 1049 00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,360 Speaker 1: to work on this. Yeah. Yeah. The funny thing is 1050 00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,640 Speaker 1: what I noticed with when I work with people who 1051 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,839 Speaker 1: lean more on the avoidance side, it's they think they 1052 00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,200 Speaker 1: know what they want, but they don't know, I know 1053 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,520 Speaker 1: what they want. They want a relationship, they want connection, 1054 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:10,839 Speaker 1: they want all that stuff. But once their attachment gets activated, 1055 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,200 Speaker 1: they are like I don't want this, and I'm like, 1056 00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,000 Speaker 1: yes you do. You're just really scared. And so yeah, 1057 00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:20,440 Speaker 1: that's when the self soothing and that's when when avoidance 1058 00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,440 Speaker 1: this might be too heavy. But when avoidance attachment system 1059 00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:29,600 Speaker 1: gets activated, their autonomic nervous system gets activated. And so 1060 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,880 Speaker 1: what that is is your fight fight er freeze. So 1061 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:34,880 Speaker 1: what do you think these people do? Oh? Hell yeah, 1062 00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:38,360 Speaker 1: we fully out of here. Like I really, I will 1063 00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:39,840 Speaker 1: tell you, Like there was a point where I was like, 1064 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,760 Speaker 1: I feel like I need a gold medal first staying 1065 00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,320 Speaker 1: in this ship because it is so scary, it is 1066 00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:48,240 Speaker 1: so hard, and especially early on, Eric would be the 1067 00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:49,960 Speaker 1: type that like, in three months, do you want to 1068 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,360 Speaker 1: do this? And I would be like, well, I have 1069 00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,040 Speaker 1: a big trip to Colorado on Southwest planning a trip 1070 00:57:56,120 --> 00:58:00,480 Speaker 1: to Colorado. Sorry you can't go, because I would just flee, 1071 00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:02,800 Speaker 1: and I really did. Even early on, I like went 1072 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:04,600 Speaker 1: on so many trips because I was like I just 1073 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,360 Speaker 1: have to get away from here and prove that like 1074 00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,680 Speaker 1: I am my own person and you can't take me 1075 00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:12,520 Speaker 1: over and you can't control me. And then I'd have 1076 00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:14,760 Speaker 1: to step back and be like, I don't think Eric's 1077 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:16,720 Speaker 1: trying to do any of that stuff, Like I'm pretty 1078 00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:18,680 Speaker 1: sure all of that lies within me. And what would 1079 00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,640 Speaker 1: it be like to trust my own boundaries? And I 1080 00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:23,120 Speaker 1: had a great therapist saying like, hey, do you need 1081 00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:25,200 Speaker 1: a boundary? Do you need a boundary? What do you need? 1082 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:27,920 Speaker 1: Like you don't have to go to Colorado to tell 1083 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,720 Speaker 1: Eric that you don't want to hang out tonight? Yeah? Yeah, 1084 00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:33,919 Speaker 1: oh my god, because but in my mind I did. Yeah. 1085 00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,040 Speaker 1: But the thing is, it's not like you don't you 1086 00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,680 Speaker 1: didn't like him, And that's why I think a lot 1087 00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:41,680 Speaker 1: of relationships get so lost. And it's like, it's not 1088 00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:45,120 Speaker 1: that you don't like this person, it's that this person 1089 00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:48,040 Speaker 1: is getting close to you, and you like this person 1090 00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:51,480 Speaker 1: almost almost too much, because you're afraid that if you 1091 00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:53,320 Speaker 1: get close to this person, they're going to see your 1092 00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:55,880 Speaker 1: stuff and then you're going to be really let down 1093 00:58:56,120 --> 00:59:00,280 Speaker 1: when they leave. So you just do it for us both. Yes, 1094 00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:04,240 Speaker 1: that is so spot on, man, oh it's and it's 1095 00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:08,800 Speaker 1: so confusing. It's just confusing, like we're talking in circles, 1096 00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:10,320 Speaker 1: but I'm like because it's like we have to drive 1097 00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,480 Speaker 1: home this right, because you desperately want the person and 1098 00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:16,320 Speaker 1: you desperately want to be close to them, but you're 1099 00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,080 Speaker 1: so afraid that you continue to do things to keep 1100 00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:22,000 Speaker 1: them far away, which is sort of the human condition. 1101 00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:25,120 Speaker 1: Like we all work incredibly hard to keep ourselves from 1102 00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,600 Speaker 1: getting what we most desperately want, which is love and 1103 00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:31,000 Speaker 1: belonging most of the time. And the trouble. The trouble 1104 00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,520 Speaker 1: is I find this, I see this more, and we're 1105 00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:36,880 Speaker 1: gonna we're about to kind of move into anxious, but 1106 00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:40,080 Speaker 1: you'll see more of I see more. If somebody who's anxious, 1107 00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:42,640 Speaker 1: it's like, yep, that's me. Somebody who's avoidant is like 1108 00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:46,920 Speaker 1: I'm not avoidant, Like no, they're just everybody else is 1109 00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:52,160 Speaker 1: just so annoying. And I'm like, okay, sure we'll go 1110 00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:55,400 Speaker 1: with that for now. But like that's like the attachment 1111 00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,760 Speaker 1: suns are just funny because like anxious will will co 1112 00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:03,680 Speaker 1: sign that avoid its like no, we're secure, yeah, And 1113 01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:06,520 Speaker 1: it is like I mean, cat, you may agree with me, 1114 01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:10,000 Speaker 1: but it is true like if you live yourself, if 1115 01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:13,400 Speaker 1: you live your life, detach from people and you never 1116 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,040 Speaker 1: ever need anybody or get close to anybody or depend 1117 01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:22,240 Speaker 1: on anybody, like, you will probably have an easier life. Um, 1118 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,160 Speaker 1: like you will not have as much pain. Yeah, easy, 1119 01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,120 Speaker 1: I'm really clear about. Like, your life will probably be 1120 01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:33,280 Speaker 1: have less like pain in it maybe, um, you know, 1121 01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:35,400 Speaker 1: because you're not going to be as attached, you don't 1122 01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:38,600 Speaker 1: ever have to suffer a loss. But I think the 1123 01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:40,680 Speaker 1: question really ask yourself is are you looking for an 1124 01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,160 Speaker 1: easy life or like more of a meaningful life? Yeah, 1125 01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,280 Speaker 1: because if you live your life detached from everybody and 1126 01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:50,080 Speaker 1: never needing anyone and never really caring about anybody and 1127 01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,960 Speaker 1: never allowing yourself to go there, like, you might have 1128 01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:57,400 Speaker 1: an easier life with less pain, but you won't have 1129 01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:01,440 Speaker 1: a meaningful, like deeply connected intimate life. And here's the 1130 01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:03,840 Speaker 1: thing I normally would say, this is what I would 1131 01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:06,000 Speaker 1: normally say to that. It's not that they have less pain, 1132 01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:07,480 Speaker 1: it's what kind of pain do you want to have? 1133 01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:09,480 Speaker 1: Do you want to have the pain of not getting 1134 01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:11,080 Speaker 1: hurt or do you want to have the pain of 1135 01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:15,160 Speaker 1: not actually fulfilling your longings? I would normally say that, 1136 01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:18,480 Speaker 1: but with an avoidant, A true avoidance is not aware 1137 01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,160 Speaker 1: that they are not fulfilling their loggings because they're fine. 1138 01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:24,840 Speaker 1: They will say I don't need relationship, or this is 1139 01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:27,800 Speaker 1: the kind of I want a relationship that is that 1140 01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:31,640 Speaker 1: does look like this, But it's not true. It is 1141 01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,840 Speaker 1: truly not true. You are not wired that way. You 1142 01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:39,000 Speaker 1: have rewired yourself to think that way. Yeah, and it's hard. 1143 01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,840 Speaker 1: I mean I remember even I got to a place 1144 01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:44,320 Speaker 1: in my life where my therapist, my sponsor, my friends 1145 01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:45,880 Speaker 1: were all like, are you gonna date? Are you gonna 1146 01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:48,400 Speaker 1: start dating? And I was like, no, I honestly don't 1147 01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,200 Speaker 1: even know if I want to ever get married, Like 1148 01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:54,200 Speaker 1: I'm really happy. I have this awesome life, Like why 1149 01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:56,920 Speaker 1: would I want to add that to it? And I 1150 01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:01,080 Speaker 1: remember my therapist continuously saying like, because you're wired for relationship, 1151 01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:03,880 Speaker 1: like we are human beings, we are wired relationship, And 1152 01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:07,120 Speaker 1: I'd be like, uh, but somewhere deep down inside of me, 1153 01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,200 Speaker 1: I believe that now. I never gave any hint of 1154 01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,480 Speaker 1: that on the outside. And so even now when I 1155 01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:15,200 Speaker 1: work with avoidant people, I'm like, you do want this? 1156 01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:18,360 Speaker 1: I know that you might not like know that, And 1157 01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,400 Speaker 1: I am so FLEXI on like what people's definition of 1158 01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:23,360 Speaker 1: health is and like, let's get you to where you 1159 01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:25,160 Speaker 1: want to be. And like that gets to look like 1160 01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,160 Speaker 1: whatever you want it to be and so open. But 1161 01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:30,280 Speaker 1: the part where I won't budge on is like we 1162 01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:35,360 Speaker 1: are all made for relationship and connection and like that 1163 01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:40,080 Speaker 1: is like a fundamental human part of us. Yeah, you know. 1164 01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:45,320 Speaker 1: Another like measuring measure of avoidance is if you've ever 1165 01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:50,400 Speaker 1: said not ever because you know, but like if if 1166 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:53,360 Speaker 1: you find yourself saying that you don't feel certain emotions 1167 01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:56,760 Speaker 1: like I don't feel hurt or I don't ever get 1168 01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,240 Speaker 1: angry or I don't ever get sad. Yeah you do. 1169 01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:03,960 Speaker 1: You just are not attached to feelings anymore. And so 1170 01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:06,960 Speaker 1: again you self suthe those things and you numb those 1171 01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:10,600 Speaker 1: and or you're saying I don't want to be controlled, 1172 01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:14,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to be consumed. I don't like needy people. 1173 01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:16,240 Speaker 1: Like if we could just give these like quotes, I mean, 1174 01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:19,520 Speaker 1: it is all like classic quotes like I can't be 1175 01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:23,920 Speaker 1: myself because of this person doing X y Z. So 1176 01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:28,600 Speaker 1: here's kind of where we'll land this plane kind of 1177 01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:31,600 Speaker 1: like talking about and we'll actually Megan, I kind of 1178 01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,360 Speaker 1: want to talk about moving towards secure. At the end, 1179 01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:36,640 Speaker 1: for both of them, they look a little bit different, 1180 01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:39,720 Speaker 1: but also the same. So that's kind of we'll kind 1181 01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:42,880 Speaker 1: of stop there with avoidance and move into the anxiousness, 1182 01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,440 Speaker 1: even though we've kind of talked about both, but we're 1183 01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:50,920 Speaker 1: going to go into the dune undone anxious preoccupied side. 1184 01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,160 Speaker 1: You know, Katherine will be the expert in the room 1185 01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,720 Speaker 1: on this one. I lean over there every now and then, 1186 01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:59,000 Speaker 1: just a couple of times I've leaned over there in 1187 01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:04,520 Speaker 1: my life. Couple days she's been over there. Um, So 1188 01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,040 Speaker 1: instead of avoidance, this person is more about kind of 1189 01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:15,480 Speaker 1: like preoccupation. So these people have been exposed to inconsistent 1190 01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:19,720 Speaker 1: attunement of their needs. So where somebody who's avoidant, they 1191 01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:24,760 Speaker 1: lost hope because the parents just like kind of ignored 1192 01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:28,200 Speaker 1: or we're not present for those needs. This is a 1193 01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:31,400 Speaker 1: little bit more tricky because sometimes their needs get met 1194 01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:34,360 Speaker 1: and sometimes their needs aren't met, and sometimes they get 1195 01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:37,400 Speaker 1: met and sometimes their needs aren't met. So they battle 1196 01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:41,480 Speaker 1: through this like hoping in disappointment and hoping in disappointment, 1197 01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:46,120 Speaker 1: while the avoidance just doesn't hope. And the example that 1198 01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:49,919 Speaker 1: I usually give to clients is this is the kid 1199 01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:52,760 Speaker 1: who like has all youth soccer. This is this is 1200 01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:54,640 Speaker 1: not happened in my life. So mom and Dad, I'm 1201 01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:57,000 Speaker 1: not talking about you, but I played soccer. Somebody used this, 1202 01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:59,919 Speaker 1: so imagine I had a soccer game at like sick 1203 01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:02,560 Speaker 1: PM on Wednesday, and I'm like walking out the door 1204 01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:06,000 Speaker 1: going to school, and my dad's like, hey, like i'll 1205 01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,080 Speaker 1: see you at your game tonight. And in my head, 1206 01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:10,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, Dad's gonna come to my game. And 1207 01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:13,440 Speaker 1: then I go to my game. I'm so excited and 1208 01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:16,480 Speaker 1: like Dad's coming blah blah blah. And I'm playing and 1209 01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:18,640 Speaker 1: I score goal and I look out at the crowd 1210 01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:21,000 Speaker 1: and I can't find my dad and I'm like, oh, 1211 01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:23,080 Speaker 1: maybe he's, you know, in the corner or whatever, blah blah. 1212 01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:24,840 Speaker 1: He's there. He said he was gonna be there. And 1213 01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:26,520 Speaker 1: then the game's over and I walk over to where 1214 01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,920 Speaker 1: all the parents are and like my mom is like sorry, 1215 01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:33,920 Speaker 1: like dad got caught up in work again. And it's like, oh, 1216 01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:35,919 Speaker 1: my hope is that my hope is And I held 1217 01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:37,320 Speaker 1: on to it so much and like I made all 1218 01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:40,680 Speaker 1: these excuses and then the reality is Dad didn't show up. 1219 01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:45,160 Speaker 1: Whereas an avoidant Dad didn't even know you how to game. 1220 01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:48,440 Speaker 1: You know, it's tough because like you don't want to 1221 01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,640 Speaker 1: lose hope because you get these little nuggets, but then 1222 01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:54,800 Speaker 1: you get kind of the nugget taken away from you. 1223 01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:57,760 Speaker 1: And so or like mom or dad comes through the 1224 01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:01,480 Speaker 1: door home from work or whatever, and one day they're 1225 01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:04,560 Speaker 1: super excited to see you and super conconnect with you, 1226 01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:07,560 Speaker 1: and then the next day, like they're on the phone 1227 01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:11,360 Speaker 1: and completely ignore you. So it's like hard for that. 1228 01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:14,600 Speaker 1: It's hard for somebody on the anxious side to settle, 1229 01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:17,720 Speaker 1: and it's really really, really really hard for them to trust. 1230 01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,720 Speaker 1: And I want to kind of drive that home because 1231 01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:24,360 Speaker 1: I think they get it. We get a bad rap 1232 01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,280 Speaker 1: of like what's wrong with you? You must have like 1233 01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:29,880 Speaker 1: no confidence or no self esteem, And it's really not 1234 01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,480 Speaker 1: about that. It's about the fact that we have been 1235 01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:36,680 Speaker 1: taught that people don't there, people don't keep their word, 1236 01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:42,160 Speaker 1: or people are inconsistent. People just can't be trusted, really, 1237 01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:46,760 Speaker 1: and we want so badly to trust them. And obviously 1238 01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:48,480 Speaker 1: when we look at where it comes from, it's for 1239 01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:52,280 Speaker 1: good reason, Like any of us, the most the worst 1240 01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:56,720 Speaker 1: kind of reinforcement that any person can get is inconsistent reinforcement. 1241 01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:58,960 Speaker 1: It makes us crazy because it's like, I mean, the 1242 01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:01,720 Speaker 1: whole basis of the lottery or slot machine is based 1243 01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:05,360 Speaker 1: on that premise because like, well, sometime that you're gonna win, 1244 01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:08,120 Speaker 1: but who knows how long. And so I have a 1245 01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,600 Speaker 1: lot of room for compassion upon people who lean on 1246 01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,080 Speaker 1: the anxious side, because it's like, yeah, sometimes your knees 1247 01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:17,840 Speaker 1: got met in like a really wonderful way, and then 1248 01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:20,840 Speaker 1: other times you got completely ignored, and like any of 1249 01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:25,040 Speaker 1: us would keep fighting for that wonderful time again. Yeah, 1250 01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:30,480 Speaker 1: And so I will use this example for myself is 1251 01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:36,200 Speaker 1: that because again I don't think this comes from insecurity. 1252 01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:39,240 Speaker 1: If there's something really I don't really think we think 1253 01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:42,280 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with us all the time. However, if 1254 01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:43,920 Speaker 1: we go back to what we talked about in the beginning, 1255 01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:47,640 Speaker 1: you were gonna make meaning out of our experiences. And 1256 01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:52,200 Speaker 1: so for me, I have had a series of things 1257 01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:56,520 Speaker 1: where the story that I made up because people would 1258 01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,040 Speaker 1: be there and be really really excited about being there 1259 01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:01,479 Speaker 1: and all the said and they're gone and they're out, 1260 01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:04,360 Speaker 1: and we have to make a meaning up about that. 1261 01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:07,920 Speaker 1: And the meaning that I made for a period of 1262 01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:12,160 Speaker 1: my life was oh, they don't think I'm worth the work. 1263 01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:16,400 Speaker 1: It was not I don't think I'm worth the work. 1264 01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:19,519 Speaker 1: It was they don't think that, And that was a 1265 01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:22,519 Speaker 1: hard thing for me to hold. It was a lot 1266 01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:25,320 Speaker 1: of anger for me because it was like, how do 1267 01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:28,760 Speaker 1: they not see? How do they? Why don't they? Why 1268 01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,559 Speaker 1: don't they see how special I am? Why don't they 1269 01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,479 Speaker 1: see how valuable I am? I see it? Why are 1270 01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:36,439 Speaker 1: these people have not seen it? And that's where like 1271 01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:39,160 Speaker 1: the crazy making comes in. And if we go back 1272 01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:41,400 Speaker 1: to the example of like the kid and the dad 1273 01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:44,200 Speaker 1: not showing it's it's like, I what if I scored 1274 01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:46,360 Speaker 1: a hat trick? How does that dad not see that? 1275 01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:48,880 Speaker 1: Like he wants to be in the crowd because I'm 1276 01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:52,680 Speaker 1: star And it's it makes no sense and we have 1277 01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:54,679 Speaker 1: to make sense out of it at the same time, 1278 01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:59,640 Speaker 1: and so so and kids. Basically that looks like oh 1279 01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:04,000 Speaker 1: mom or caregivers here, Oh they're not. This is really interesting. 1280 01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:08,040 Speaker 1: So there's an experiment called the Strange Situation, which we 1281 01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:11,600 Speaker 1: haven't talked about yet, where Mary Ainsworth did this and 1282 01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:16,240 Speaker 1: basically she studied like what happens when UM, a caregiver 1283 01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:18,600 Speaker 1: will leave her child and then come back and to 1284 01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,920 Speaker 1: um kind of differentiate the attachment styles and with the 1285 01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:27,160 Speaker 1: anxious and secure anxious, what would happen is the kid 1286 01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:30,680 Speaker 1: would be sad when the mom left, definitely sad when 1287 01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:36,120 Speaker 1: the mom leaves, where like the avoidant isn't looks at 1288 01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:41,320 Speaker 1: the mom cool, but the anxious is sad and that's 1289 01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:44,639 Speaker 1: an appropriate response. The issue is when they come back, 1290 01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:47,320 Speaker 1: they'll go to the caregiver, but then they can't be 1291 01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:50,599 Speaker 1: soothed because in their mind, thank god mom is here, 1292 01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:52,080 Speaker 1: but Mom's going to leave again, and so I have 1293 01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:53,960 Speaker 1: to cling to mom because she's going to leave again, 1294 01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:55,439 Speaker 1: and what if she leaves again and I don't want 1295 01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:57,680 Speaker 1: her to leave again? Right, Like, the anxious and the 1296 01:09:57,760 --> 01:09:59,760 Speaker 1: secure baby when the mom walks out of the room 1297 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:03,120 Speaker 1: looks sort of similar. Um. The difference is the secure 1298 01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:06,240 Speaker 1: baby like can can self soothe and calm down when 1299 01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:09,639 Speaker 1: mom comes back, they interact with mom and like they're 1300 01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:11,599 Speaker 1: happy to see mom, and then they can also sort 1301 01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:14,880 Speaker 1: of play with mom and independently when mom comes back. 1302 01:10:14,920 --> 01:10:17,640 Speaker 1: To the anxious baby, that baby is like clinging for 1303 01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:20,680 Speaker 1: dear life, where really it's a one year old like that, 1304 01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:26,080 Speaker 1: that toddler is like can't stop crying, can't stop clinging, 1305 01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:29,120 Speaker 1: like mom doesn't know what to do, and so like yeah, 1306 01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:33,519 Speaker 1: later in relationships that's why there's this like constant need 1307 01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:36,400 Speaker 1: for affirmation. And when you're with that person, even when 1308 01:10:36,439 --> 01:10:39,280 Speaker 1: it feels good, you are waiting for them to leave 1309 01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:44,000 Speaker 1: because historically this is not you being again, it's not 1310 01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:49,240 Speaker 1: low self worth. Historically people leave again, and so you 1311 01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:54,280 Speaker 1: are attached to that story. Um, and so that would 1312 01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:57,759 Speaker 1: definitely come out in every relationship. These are the people 1313 01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:01,599 Speaker 1: that they just can't relax. These are your stage five clangers. Yeah, 1314 01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:05,200 Speaker 1: and like in some ways, yeah, the anxious person isn't 1315 01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:07,560 Speaker 1: making up there's something wrong with them. It's more of 1316 01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,679 Speaker 1: like they think they can do something to keep person there. Yeah, 1317 01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:12,160 Speaker 1: like what can I do to keep people? You can 1318 01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:14,320 Speaker 1: see where like in some ways those look similar, but 1319 01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:17,320 Speaker 1: they're actually very different because it does it isn't like 1320 01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:20,120 Speaker 1: an inflated sense of power of like I can be better, 1321 01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:21,800 Speaker 1: I can do more. I need to check in with 1322 01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:25,280 Speaker 1: this person to make sure everything's okay so that they'll stay. Yeah, 1323 01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:28,120 Speaker 1: And it ends up being problematic because there's nothing that 1324 01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:31,439 Speaker 1: the partner can do at that point And that's why 1325 01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:33,960 Speaker 1: I avoidance will end up getting really frustrated because it's 1326 01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:36,400 Speaker 1: like I texted you when I said I was and 1327 01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:38,080 Speaker 1: text you I called you when I said I was 1328 01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:41,160 Speaker 1: going to call you like, I like you, I love you, 1329 01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:43,800 Speaker 1: I think you're beautiful. What the hell more do you 1330 01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:47,599 Speaker 1: want from me? You crazy person? Well? Yeah, and essentially 1331 01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:50,559 Speaker 1: again it comes back to an inability to sell soothe 1332 01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:53,920 Speaker 1: and then instead of being like the avoidant going away 1333 01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:57,000 Speaker 1: to some sort of whatever to self soothe, like the 1334 01:11:57,280 --> 01:11:59,720 Speaker 1: anxious person is trying to get use the person to 1335 01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:02,320 Speaker 1: sell to do it. So even like I mean, we'll 1336 01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:04,360 Speaker 1: get here in terms of like how do you repair 1337 01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:07,479 Speaker 1: this attachment style or whatever you wanna call it, You 1338 01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,760 Speaker 1: have to learn how to self soothe and self regulate. Yeah, 1339 01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:13,000 Speaker 1: I think more of like you just have to learn 1340 01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:16,320 Speaker 1: to soothe in general, because I do think in relationship 1341 01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:19,000 Speaker 1: you should be able to soothe with somebody, not soothed 1342 01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:22,360 Speaker 1: by somebody. Right, that's the biggest distinction. Like we are 1343 01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:25,720 Speaker 1: humans and creative a relationships, so we do soothe with 1344 01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:29,599 Speaker 1: other humans. You just don't want to be using the humans, right, right, 1345 01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:32,920 Speaker 1: there's a different team being connected and using them. Yeah. 1346 01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:36,040 Speaker 1: So these parents also, I know we talked about your 1347 01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:38,439 Speaker 1: parents have attachment to These parents are a lot of 1348 01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:42,600 Speaker 1: times like fearful in their parenting. So like they doubt themselves, 1349 01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:44,840 Speaker 1: and then the child can sense that and then they 1350 01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:48,160 Speaker 1: get preoccupied with the fact that their parents are unsure, 1351 01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:51,360 Speaker 1: and so they take on the instability of their parents. 1352 01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:54,160 Speaker 1: So in adults were kind of already been telling others, 1353 01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:56,400 Speaker 1: but it looks like, why aren't you texting me a 1354 01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,800 Speaker 1: lot of like information seeking and wanting to know, wanting 1355 01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:02,720 Speaker 1: you to say a lot of words of affirmation, um, 1356 01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:06,000 Speaker 1: And they don't. Like. What we don't realize is like, 1357 01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:08,960 Speaker 1: because we're doing that to find connection, we don't realize 1358 01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:12,000 Speaker 1: that we're pushing those people away, which is kind of 1359 01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:15,200 Speaker 1: what you're talking. Yeah, it's too much, yeah, or like 1360 01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:17,920 Speaker 1: the anxious person, Like they text and then they're like, 1361 01:13:17,960 --> 01:13:20,240 Speaker 1: why isn't this person texted me back? It's been an hour, 1362 01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:21,960 Speaker 1: And it's like, I don't know, maybe that person is 1363 01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:25,120 Speaker 1: at work or asleep or whatever. So then they text again, 1364 01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:27,320 Speaker 1: and they text again, and they text again, and the 1365 01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:30,880 Speaker 1: texting isn't wrong that the issue is it's an exaggeration 1366 01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:35,200 Speaker 1: of a normal need. One text is great, it's great, 1367 01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:39,120 Speaker 1: but like, yeah, even the amount of texting, like it's 1368 01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:42,240 Speaker 1: not that, it's the anxiety behind the texting. And then 1369 01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:44,120 Speaker 1: I wonder for you too, you can speak on this. 1370 01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:47,639 Speaker 1: It becomes blame me too, because then I'm like, why 1371 01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:50,439 Speaker 1: didn't you text me back? And they're like I fell asleep. 1372 01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:54,080 Speaker 1: I like what I fell asleep? Like why don't you 1373 01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:58,320 Speaker 1: trust me? Um? And it's like because I was taught not. 1374 01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:01,240 Speaker 1: I was taught not to write reality. When we're sending 1375 01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:03,880 Speaker 1: those texts, what we're actually feeling is I feel abandoned 1376 01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:08,320 Speaker 1: and rejected, and um, yeah, nobody wants to feel that, 1377 01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:10,640 Speaker 1: so we want to kind of take that away. And 1378 01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:13,360 Speaker 1: I don't know that we necessarily plan on getting into this. 1379 01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:16,800 Speaker 1: But going back to even like how we're talking about 1380 01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:20,320 Speaker 1: the two on the on the instagram on the angiogram, um, 1381 01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:22,880 Speaker 1: and how they're so willing to help, help, help, but 1382 01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:26,000 Speaker 1: internally like desperate for help. A lot of times I 1383 01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:29,639 Speaker 1: see with clients a similar pattern showing up, like they're 1384 01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:33,160 Speaker 1: anxiously attached and so they found like your classic addict 1385 01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:38,360 Speaker 1: avoidant who really like has a lot going on in 1386 01:14:38,439 --> 01:14:41,040 Speaker 1: their life and really needs a lot of help. And 1387 01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:44,760 Speaker 1: so here we've got anxious person coming in to take 1388 01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:47,559 Speaker 1: care of this person who really needs them, and it's 1389 01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:50,920 Speaker 1: this really nice toxic dance that they have going on. 1390 01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:55,120 Speaker 1: Are you saying that the addict is avoidant. Yes, the 1391 01:14:55,240 --> 01:14:57,559 Speaker 1: addict is avoidant because they're going to go to their 1392 01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:02,920 Speaker 1: substance to get like see he and yeah, they don't 1393 01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,360 Speaker 1: want they don't want you to fix them. But now 1394 01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:08,040 Speaker 1: this whole thing break blows up. And I'm sure you've 1395 01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:10,559 Speaker 1: seen this. I see this a lot too. It blows 1396 01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:14,320 Speaker 1: up when the avoid at addict decides like, oh, I'm 1397 01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:16,439 Speaker 1: actually going to go get help and like I don't 1398 01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:20,680 Speaker 1: want you anymore. And then the anxious person is like 1399 01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:25,880 Speaker 1: I've done everything, like oh my gosh, whatever um, and 1400 01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:28,800 Speaker 1: it really like I just see that as a as 1401 01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:31,519 Speaker 1: a cycle that it's not always there like beca'se hear me. 1402 01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:34,600 Speaker 1: Every anxious person is not dating an addict. It's just 1403 01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:37,800 Speaker 1: a very common cycle that somebody can find themselves in 1404 01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:41,200 Speaker 1: because you have found someone who really needs you and 1405 01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:45,720 Speaker 1: that feels really good. At the same time. Here's the thing, 1406 01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:48,400 Speaker 1: I don't think that I'm like on the top of 1407 01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:52,040 Speaker 1: the scale with anxiousness. Again, we lean, but I also 1408 01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:54,680 Speaker 1: have paid enough money but also Katherine secured to just 1409 01:15:54,880 --> 01:16:00,680 Speaker 1: want that also healthy. But yeah, again, how do I 1410 01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:03,760 Speaker 1: say this if we're dating, if we find ourselves in 1411 01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:06,200 Speaker 1: that avoid an anxious dance, which works for a period 1412 01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:10,439 Speaker 1: of time. The avoidance doesn't always leave to go get help, right, 1413 01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:14,479 Speaker 1: you might eventually the problem Well, you might go on forever, 1414 01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:16,559 Speaker 1: and it could be a little bit, it could be wild. 1415 01:16:17,320 --> 01:16:21,479 Speaker 1: They also could just leave because they start to get 1416 01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:24,880 Speaker 1: attached to you. That is going to happen when you 1417 01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:29,000 Speaker 1: have more somebody who has an anxious tendency but isn't 1418 01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:31,160 Speaker 1: fully anxious. Does that make sense? So if you have 1419 01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:34,800 Speaker 1: anxious security, when you have yeah, when you have both, 1420 01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:38,960 Speaker 1: it's like that avoidant will end up leaving because you 1421 01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:41,760 Speaker 1: start to lean into their stuff and they lean and 1422 01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:44,320 Speaker 1: they go self sooth. They might not lean and leave 1423 01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:46,840 Speaker 1: and go get help. Now, I guess that's my ideals. 1424 01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:50,000 Speaker 1: So if you have like black and white textbook, anxious 1425 01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:53,680 Speaker 1: black and white textbook, avoid an addict that that might 1426 01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:57,880 Speaker 1: happen or that will never happen and they'll forever be 1427 01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:02,439 Speaker 1: in this unhealthy wild ride, yeah, or if you have either, 1428 01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:06,720 Speaker 1: I think either stage. If you have one anxious, this 1429 01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:08,640 Speaker 1: is probably getting too deep, so I probably won't put 1430 01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:10,759 Speaker 1: this in there. But if you have somebody who leans 1431 01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:14,000 Speaker 1: anxious but it's mostly secure with a very avoidant. The 1432 01:17:14,120 --> 01:17:17,400 Speaker 1: avoidance will end up leaving because the secure person is 1433 01:17:17,439 --> 01:17:20,519 Speaker 1: trying to get in there. If you have somebody who 1434 01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:25,639 Speaker 1: is mostly secure but a little avoidant and somebody who's 1435 01:17:25,720 --> 01:17:30,519 Speaker 1: mostly anxious, does that make sense the avoidance will still 1436 01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:33,479 Speaker 1: end up leaving. That makes sense to avoidance going to 1437 01:17:33,560 --> 01:17:37,120 Speaker 1: leave either way, because they either have health and they're 1438 01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:39,400 Speaker 1: going to go. You know, I can't do this is 1439 01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:42,200 Speaker 1: too much like you're actually unhealthy or they're gonna leave 1440 01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:45,360 Speaker 1: because you're trying to attach to me and I don't 1441 01:17:45,400 --> 01:17:47,320 Speaker 1: want to do that if they're unhealthy. And also what 1442 01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:51,080 Speaker 1: you're talking about is like mismatch levels of health and 1443 01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:53,600 Speaker 1: so kind of what you're saying is like it's inevitable 1444 01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:56,040 Speaker 1: if one person, I don't care what kind of attachment 1445 01:17:56,120 --> 01:17:58,920 Speaker 1: style you have, if one person is mostly secure with 1446 01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:02,599 Speaker 1: somebody who's not, it's not going to work out. Um. 1447 01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:05,840 Speaker 1: But I think coming back to even the thing I 1448 01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:08,639 Speaker 1: was really trying to highlight about, the anxious attachment style 1449 01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:12,360 Speaker 1: is one way, like one key to seeing like when 1450 01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:14,840 Speaker 1: you're trying to figure out your attachment is like, yeah, 1451 01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:18,200 Speaker 1: have you attracted? Like are you in a relationship where 1452 01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:20,519 Speaker 1: you're someone who's really meeting a lot of the needs, 1453 01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:23,240 Speaker 1: because the anxious person is going to be probably far 1454 01:18:23,360 --> 01:18:26,920 Speaker 1: better at meeting needs and like being even ahead of 1455 01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:30,800 Speaker 1: knowing what the need is, like anticipating the need before 1456 01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:33,360 Speaker 1: the other person wouldn't leave them and is also a 1457 01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:37,000 Speaker 1: way to like keep from doing intimacy because if I'm 1458 01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:39,639 Speaker 1: always meeting your needs, then I never have to talk 1459 01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:42,080 Speaker 1: about what my needs are or to be needing myself. 1460 01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:45,240 Speaker 1: And the secure person is going to say, you take 1461 01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:47,559 Speaker 1: care of your needs, I'll take your my needs. Let's 1462 01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:51,080 Speaker 1: meet somewhere and hang out in the middle. So these 1463 01:18:51,160 --> 01:18:54,640 Speaker 1: people have a fear of being alone, is what it 1464 01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:57,320 Speaker 1: looks like. That's what their fear on the outside looks like, 1465 01:18:57,439 --> 01:19:00,360 Speaker 1: whereas avoidant, their fear on the outside looks a fear 1466 01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:04,240 Speaker 1: of intimacy. But really the anxious person does have a 1467 01:19:04,280 --> 01:19:08,000 Speaker 1: fear of intimacy, and they to me, you see, like 1468 01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:11,120 Speaker 1: you would really see that I have needs, I have feelings, 1469 01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:13,680 Speaker 1: and I would actually have to share them, even though 1470 01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:16,320 Speaker 1: the most deceptive part is that on the outside it 1471 01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:20,240 Speaker 1: looks like the anxious person is very connected to their needs. Yeah, yeah, 1472 01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:24,560 Speaker 1: and so yeah, so the anxious person is like basically 1473 01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:28,880 Speaker 1: they're over doing it when it comes to attachment. The 1474 01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:32,560 Speaker 1: avoidant person is under doing it. When it comes to attachment, 1475 01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:36,400 Speaker 1: the anxious person assumes you're not going to come back, 1476 01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:39,960 Speaker 1: and the avoidant person assumes that if I don't hold 1477 01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:42,640 Speaker 1: this together, it's going to fall apart. I gotta go. 1478 01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:47,160 Speaker 1: I don't want this responsibility. So I think neither of 1479 01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:54,120 Speaker 1: which are doing interdependence right. Interdependence is like doing relationship together. 1480 01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:58,400 Speaker 1: Like you're not overly dependent, but you're not so independent 1481 01:19:58,479 --> 01:20:02,040 Speaker 1: that you're not even in the in the um, you're able. 1482 01:20:02,160 --> 01:20:05,200 Speaker 1: Like interdependence looks like I have needs. I'm able to 1483 01:20:05,320 --> 01:20:08,759 Speaker 1: express my needs, my feelings, my wants, my desires without 1484 01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:11,960 Speaker 1: like totally expecting you to fix them. And then the 1485 01:20:12,080 --> 01:20:14,360 Speaker 1: other person can also kind of stay in their lane 1486 01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:17,880 Speaker 1: and here here that you have these needs, have these feelings, 1487 01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:21,400 Speaker 1: ask for what, ask what you need. Also have boundaries, 1488 01:20:21,520 --> 01:20:25,000 Speaker 1: Like both people are having needs, both people are having boundaries. 1489 01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:27,280 Speaker 1: Both people are allowing the other person to feel their 1490 01:20:27,320 --> 01:20:30,080 Speaker 1: feelings and not having to fix them. Like that's what 1491 01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:35,040 Speaker 1: interdependence looks like. Yeah, and so I think that um, 1492 01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:37,560 Speaker 1: we've kind of like part of me is like we 1493 01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:39,840 Speaker 1: should have done this in multiple episodes, but we've kind 1494 01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:42,240 Speaker 1: of given you a lot of information to digest about 1495 01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:46,599 Speaker 1: kind of discerning the different types of insecure attachment. Now 1496 01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:48,720 Speaker 1: I want to start to talk about the hope that 1497 01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:52,160 Speaker 1: there is for this steady hope that there is for 1498 01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:55,400 Speaker 1: both of these types, because you have the ability to 1499 01:20:55,520 --> 01:21:02,679 Speaker 1: have secure attachment. With that being said, it is a painful, scary, 1500 01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:07,479 Speaker 1: twist attorney road to get there because your old metal deserves. 1501 01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:11,360 Speaker 1: You have to face your biggest fear on either side, 1502 01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:13,640 Speaker 1: and you have to be willing to do that and 1503 01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:16,840 Speaker 1: with an avoidance and you can speak to this, Megan, 1504 01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:19,719 Speaker 1: like going and doing the work. You have to actually 1505 01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:23,920 Speaker 1: become aware to the fact that you have needs, which 1506 01:21:24,160 --> 01:21:27,439 Speaker 1: is terrifying because then you're vulnerable and oh my god, 1507 01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:31,320 Speaker 1: then you're going to get abandoned and even like further 1508 01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:34,840 Speaker 1: to like all that is true, but also leaning avoidant 1509 01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:37,519 Speaker 1: I experience is personally and I see it with clients. 1510 01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:40,200 Speaker 1: You also have to battle the need every week or 1511 01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:42,080 Speaker 1: the thought every week that you don't really need to 1512 01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:46,000 Speaker 1: do this because everything's fine, because everything's fine, and so 1513 01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:47,960 Speaker 1: I know a lot of my journey was like, well, 1514 01:21:48,280 --> 01:21:50,280 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna keep putting one ft in front of 1515 01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:52,880 Speaker 1: the other, like I've committed to doing this whole therapy thing. 1516 01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:55,400 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna keep doing it and keep doing it 1517 01:21:55,560 --> 01:21:58,240 Speaker 1: and keep doing it, even though so much in the 1518 01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:01,880 Speaker 1: journey I was like, I'm fine, I'm fine. Um So, 1519 01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:04,519 Speaker 1: I think there's an extra element of like the whole time, 1520 01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:07,360 Speaker 1: you're actually sort of talking yourself into it. Yeah, and 1521 01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:10,120 Speaker 1: you know the lie that you might be saying is 1522 01:22:10,160 --> 01:22:13,760 Speaker 1: that like I'm fine, Like there's no chaos, chaos in 1523 01:22:13,840 --> 01:22:16,559 Speaker 1: my life. My life is so steady, whereas an anxious 1524 01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:19,639 Speaker 1: person is like there's chaos everywhere, but there's still chaos 1525 01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:22,360 Speaker 1: in your life to sleep to it, yes, and then 1526 01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:26,200 Speaker 1: um so, and you're working so hard to not get 1527 01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:28,600 Speaker 1: attached to the therapist, Like there's there's a lot of 1528 01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:30,759 Speaker 1: games to you. I mean there is two if you're anxious. 1529 01:22:31,160 --> 01:22:33,920 Speaker 1: But like even I know I've had a lot of 1530 01:22:34,160 --> 01:22:37,880 Speaker 1: clients that are mean avoidance say to me like, yeah, 1531 01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:40,360 Speaker 1: I forgot how much I liked meeting with you, like 1532 01:22:40,560 --> 01:22:42,519 Speaker 1: from one week to the next, And I'm like, yeah, 1533 01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:45,200 Speaker 1: because you're telling yourself all week. But you don't mean me, 1534 01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:47,120 Speaker 1: you don't care about me, you don't even like me 1535 01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:51,160 Speaker 1: to in order to continue to create distance, and you've 1536 01:22:51,200 --> 01:22:54,960 Speaker 1: got to allow yourself to attune to other people, and 1537 01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:58,240 Speaker 1: you have to allow yourself to care about other people. 1538 01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:03,240 Speaker 1: And yeah, that is very scary. And in a podcast 1539 01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:06,120 Speaker 1: that I was, did I say podcast weird? No, I 1540 01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:07,560 Speaker 1: don't know. I feel like I was listening to you. 1541 01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:11,880 Speaker 1: In a podcast I was listening to um they described 1542 01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:15,120 Speaker 1: They said that the avoidance is like the tin man 1543 01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:16,920 Speaker 1: and they need to they need to go find their heart. 1544 01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:19,920 Speaker 1: That's probably true. I'm as sad as it is. It 1545 01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:22,640 Speaker 1: is probably true. And if you do lean avoidance, you 1546 01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:26,080 Speaker 1: have to be one hell of a freaking translator, because 1547 01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:28,000 Speaker 1: I know, like what that looks like for me is 1548 01:23:28,120 --> 01:23:31,040 Speaker 1: constantly like in my head, I'm like, oh, I don't 1549 01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:33,120 Speaker 1: care about this person, and then I have to be like, oh, 1550 01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:35,640 Speaker 1: that actually means I care about them a lot. Or 1551 01:23:35,720 --> 01:23:37,639 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go on this three week 1552 01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:40,880 Speaker 1: vacation without anybody and I'm finally going to get the 1553 01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:43,200 Speaker 1: peace and quiet that I want. And then I'm like, Okay, 1554 01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:45,920 Speaker 1: that's an alert, like translate that that means that I 1555 01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:49,280 Speaker 1: need more boundaries in my life right now. And so 1556 01:23:49,400 --> 01:23:52,440 Speaker 1: I really have learned to pick up on these traditionally 1557 01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:56,360 Speaker 1: like avoidant phrases that I carry and translate them into 1558 01:23:56,479 --> 01:23:59,640 Speaker 1: like what's actually true and then learn what I need 1559 01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:05,120 Speaker 1: within that. Yeah, Whereas like the anxious person, they're a 1560 01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:07,360 Speaker 1: lot of their work is learning to be less aware 1561 01:24:07,400 --> 01:24:09,559 Speaker 1: of the outside and more aware of the inside as well. 1562 01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:12,479 Speaker 1: And it's just a different way that the avoidance is 1563 01:24:12,520 --> 01:24:14,880 Speaker 1: not aware of the outside or the inside. That the 1564 01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:18,280 Speaker 1: agonist person just needs to go inside um and they 1565 01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:22,120 Speaker 1: have got to do the work around, like identifying their 1566 01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:27,400 Speaker 1: own opinion and learning how to be more selfish about 1567 01:24:27,479 --> 01:24:30,479 Speaker 1: their needs and their desires and their longs rather than 1568 01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:33,479 Speaker 1: the kind of like role we play as the self 1569 01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:37,120 Speaker 1: selfless kind of like how you're talking about the two angiogram, 1570 01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:39,719 Speaker 1: So it's like you have to go inside and start 1571 01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:42,360 Speaker 1: reading your own cues rather than trying to read and 1572 01:24:42,400 --> 01:24:46,479 Speaker 1: take care of everybody else's because we've created safety by 1573 01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:49,280 Speaker 1: making sure we don't cause a stir, and we're helping 1574 01:24:49,400 --> 01:24:54,800 Speaker 1: others because if they are happy, then we're okay. Just 1575 01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:57,240 Speaker 1: like the avoidance says in the therapy session, if they 1576 01:24:57,320 --> 01:24:59,960 Speaker 1: would be if they would fix their ship, I would 1577 01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:02,640 Speaker 1: be okay. So if I fix my stuff, I'll be 1578 01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:06,480 Speaker 1: okay for that person. Does that make sense? Yeah? And conversely, 1579 01:25:06,560 --> 01:25:09,720 Speaker 1: like the avoidant person who's in recovery and working on 1580 01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:13,000 Speaker 1: security has to, like in the same way work on 1581 01:25:13,120 --> 01:25:15,880 Speaker 1: being less selfish. So I know, like even in my 1582 01:25:15,920 --> 01:25:18,360 Speaker 1: own relationship, sometimes I'll have to be like, okay, hold 1583 01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:20,720 Speaker 1: on a second, like what do you need? Like this 1584 01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:23,479 Speaker 1: is a lot of focus on me. I'm really good 1585 01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:27,200 Speaker 1: at focusing on me, and like I deeply care about 1586 01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:30,600 Speaker 1: my partner and so like our dance that we do 1587 01:25:30,720 --> 01:25:33,360 Speaker 1: together is also there are times that I'm like, Okay, 1588 01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:37,439 Speaker 1: I have received enough care um and I will continue 1589 01:25:37,479 --> 01:25:39,240 Speaker 1: to do that if I'm not careful, And then I 1590 01:25:39,320 --> 01:25:41,800 Speaker 1: have to like push it back for Eric, and I'm like, 1591 01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:44,840 Speaker 1: what do you need? What do you want? What's going on? So, 1592 01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:48,200 Speaker 1: just like the person who leans anxious is like working 1593 01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:52,799 Speaker 1: on identifying their needs and becoming less selfless. Hey, avoidant 1594 01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:54,720 Speaker 1: people of the world, you also need to work on 1595 01:25:54,840 --> 01:25:57,280 Speaker 1: being less selfish. Yeah, And you know what, like in 1596 01:25:57,400 --> 01:26:00,560 Speaker 1: your story to the somebody moving towards do it's like 1597 01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:03,360 Speaker 1: this person wanting to love and care for you so badly, 1598 01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:07,920 Speaker 1: and you you interpret that as like a threat of 1599 01:26:08,040 --> 01:26:09,640 Speaker 1: like this person is going to end up hurting me, 1600 01:26:09,680 --> 01:26:12,360 Speaker 1: and it's like no, like, just let somebody love you, 1601 01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:15,960 Speaker 1: let somebody see you like um. But it is a 1602 01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:19,439 Speaker 1: threat because the avoidant person has needed a hundred percent 1603 01:26:19,520 --> 01:26:21,840 Speaker 1: of their energy to meet their own needs. They never 1604 01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:24,960 Speaker 1: got their needs met and so or not, you know 1605 01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:27,400 Speaker 1: never but most of the time didn't. And so they're 1606 01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:29,960 Speaker 1: used to like trying to survive on a private island. 1607 01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:32,719 Speaker 1: Like if you leave avoidance, so you need a hundred 1608 01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:35,360 Speaker 1: percent of your own energy to take care of yourself. 1609 01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:37,840 Speaker 1: But as you step more into your adult self, you'll 1610 01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:40,400 Speaker 1: start to see, oh, this other person is safe and 1611 01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:42,960 Speaker 1: they're not actually going to take from me. Yeah, Because 1612 01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:45,200 Speaker 1: the truth of all this is, if this is something 1613 01:26:45,280 --> 01:26:49,599 Speaker 1: that was developed in fully in your childhood, those things, 1614 01:26:49,720 --> 01:26:52,519 Speaker 1: those traits how you were able to survive, your attachment 1615 01:26:52,560 --> 01:26:56,879 Speaker 1: style kept you safe on your island either way anxious 1616 01:26:56,960 --> 01:27:00,080 Speaker 1: or avoidant. And the truth is in adult life, you 1617 01:27:00,200 --> 01:27:06,280 Speaker 1: don't need those survival mechanisms any longer. They are now 1618 01:27:06,439 --> 01:27:10,120 Speaker 1: hurting you. And so the anxious person, one of our 1619 01:27:10,240 --> 01:27:14,560 Speaker 1: jobs is to realize that we're having an exaggerated expression 1620 01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:18,080 Speaker 1: or feeling this is not one percent the truth of 1621 01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:21,200 Speaker 1: what's going on. And we have to realize that just 1622 01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:25,120 Speaker 1: because we're feeling something doesn't mean that somebody has done something. 1623 01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:27,920 Speaker 1: And the world is probably a lot safer than we 1624 01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:30,720 Speaker 1: think it is. People are probably a lot safer than 1625 01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:34,479 Speaker 1: we think they are. So kind of wrapping this all up, 1626 01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:38,720 Speaker 1: how how basically do we move towards secure? You guys 1627 01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:42,160 Speaker 1: are gonna love this simple answer to to get this 1628 01:27:42,360 --> 01:27:44,880 Speaker 1: what we call earned security. It's like moving from an 1629 01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:47,719 Speaker 1: insecurity to security. Um, it's going back to the idea 1630 01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:49,280 Speaker 1: of like, it doesn't matter what happened to you, it 1631 01:27:49,400 --> 01:27:52,280 Speaker 1: matters what you do with it. So it's not whether 1632 01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:56,000 Speaker 1: or not like you have it. The thing is, it 1633 01:27:56,040 --> 01:27:59,719 Speaker 1: doesn't matter if you've experienced trauma because you have these 1634 01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:03,800 Speaker 1: flat you everyone. It's not whether or not you experienced it. 1635 01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:06,439 Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, you're shut out of luck if 1636 01:28:06,479 --> 01:28:08,759 Speaker 1: you experience trauma, but if you didn't, you'll be secure. 1637 01:28:09,200 --> 01:28:11,400 Speaker 1: It's not about that, it's what do you do with 1638 01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:16,320 Speaker 1: the trauma? Has the trauma been processed? Because through trauma 1639 01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:21,000 Speaker 1: we create stories, and through these stories we create ways 1640 01:28:21,080 --> 01:28:23,960 Speaker 1: to interact in the world and do relationship. And so 1641 01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:28,200 Speaker 1: now the issue is these people who have insecure attachments 1642 01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:32,799 Speaker 1: did not have people to help support them in their trauma, 1643 01:28:33,800 --> 01:28:39,560 Speaker 1: and right, the accurate story. Now, if we want to 1644 01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:43,120 Speaker 1: grow and heal our attachment wounds, we got to go 1645 01:28:43,320 --> 01:28:47,640 Speaker 1: find somebody and heal in a relationship with somebody that 1646 01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:50,320 Speaker 1: does not have to be a romantic partner. That is 1647 01:28:50,439 --> 01:28:53,680 Speaker 1: the only way. Like you could not heal attachment through 1648 01:28:53,720 --> 01:28:58,120 Speaker 1: a podcast, through a book, through journaling, through meditation. I mean, 1649 01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:02,000 Speaker 1: all of those things will help you. And like that's 1650 01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:04,880 Speaker 1: the first step, that's the awareness. Yeah, I love my 1651 01:29:06,040 --> 01:29:09,240 Speaker 1: some of my avoided clients. I'm just constantly like, okay, 1652 01:29:09,400 --> 01:29:11,400 Speaker 1: when you like, you've got to do this with somebody, 1653 01:29:11,479 --> 01:29:13,080 Speaker 1: You've got to do this with somebody. You gotta do 1654 01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:14,640 Speaker 1: this with somebody. I'm like, how many Like I'll just 1655 01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:17,839 Speaker 1: keep saying it forever, Like you cannot heal in a vacuum. 1656 01:29:18,520 --> 01:29:21,840 Speaker 1: I said that this week. Yeah, and so yeah, earned 1657 01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:26,080 Speaker 1: security has literally learned through meaningful, strong, healthy And when 1658 01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:29,080 Speaker 1: I say healthy, I don't mean perfect. A healthy relationship 1659 01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:31,240 Speaker 1: where like you can show up with your stuff, they 1660 01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:33,439 Speaker 1: can show up with their stuff, you can argue, you 1661 01:29:33,479 --> 01:29:35,280 Speaker 1: can have a fight, you can disagree, and you can 1662 01:29:35,360 --> 01:29:38,560 Speaker 1: still stay attached. This is a lot of times what 1663 01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:43,360 Speaker 1: a therapeutic relationship models, and a lot of times the 1664 01:29:43,400 --> 01:29:45,559 Speaker 1: clients don't know we're doing that, but what we're saying 1665 01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:49,400 Speaker 1: is like come back, i'llso be here, yeah, the whole premise. 1666 01:29:49,479 --> 01:29:51,320 Speaker 1: I had somebody asking me like, okay, so when are 1667 01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:53,640 Speaker 1: we gonna work on our attached my attachment? And I 1668 01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:56,240 Speaker 1: was like, we're working on it, you know, like this 1669 01:29:56,479 --> 01:29:57,800 Speaker 1: is it And they're like, okay, well, what do you 1670 01:29:57,840 --> 01:29:59,720 Speaker 1: think I should talk about to like work on it. 1671 01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:02,360 Speaker 1: I'm in a lot of ways we can talk about whatever. 1672 01:30:02,720 --> 01:30:05,360 Speaker 1: We could talk about anything that has some sort of meaning, 1673 01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:09,320 Speaker 1: Like I really appreciated. I appreciate when people are ready 1674 01:30:09,439 --> 01:30:11,680 Speaker 1: to like head on to the work. But I'm like 1675 01:30:11,880 --> 01:30:13,960 Speaker 1: the work that we're doing in therapy, at least from 1676 01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:15,960 Speaker 1: the lens that I think we both operate out of, 1677 01:30:16,160 --> 01:30:19,760 Speaker 1: is like the attachment between the client and the therapist 1678 01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:24,160 Speaker 1: is healing the attachment wound. I had somebody recently say 1679 01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:26,439 Speaker 1: to me like, um, I was like, hey, how's this 1680 01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:29,200 Speaker 1: session going. Are you getting what you need? And they 1681 01:30:29,280 --> 01:30:33,040 Speaker 1: were like yeah, Because for me, just simply coming to 1682 01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:36,040 Speaker 1: this session is me telling myself that like I'm worth it. 1683 01:30:37,400 --> 01:30:39,479 Speaker 1: I love that and I'm like, Wow, we could literally 1684 01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:43,080 Speaker 1: talk about anything because that's the work. It's like them 1685 01:30:43,240 --> 01:30:46,160 Speaker 1: valuing themselves and me saying like, yeah, you're worth this 1686 01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:50,000 Speaker 1: time too. You know, Um, you probably have had experiences 1687 01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:53,840 Speaker 1: like this, but I've had a couple of these, and UM, 1688 01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:58,720 Speaker 1: I will ask people pretty often like what allows you 1689 01:30:59,200 --> 01:31:02,280 Speaker 1: to sit in this room with me and tell me 1690 01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:05,240 Speaker 1: your stuff that you like? What is it about this 1691 01:31:05,400 --> 01:31:08,400 Speaker 1: space that you don't have somewhere else where you can't 1692 01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:12,800 Speaker 1: go somewhere else and express yourself and whatever and do whatever? 1693 01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:15,360 Speaker 1: What is it about the space that allows you talk 1694 01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:18,799 Speaker 1: to me? Basically? And a couple of weeks ago, somebody 1695 01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:22,080 Speaker 1: said will you And I was like, I was like, 1696 01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:25,360 Speaker 1: it is not totally me, it could be partly, but 1697 01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:28,439 Speaker 1: like what about me? And she was like she was 1698 01:31:28,479 --> 01:31:30,760 Speaker 1: like the first session I walked in the office, I 1699 01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:33,800 Speaker 1: sat down, and you were doing something at your desk, 1700 01:31:33,920 --> 01:31:37,360 Speaker 1: and you made a comment about something not regarding therapy, 1701 01:31:37,479 --> 01:31:39,720 Speaker 1: was like about the day or about your day. And 1702 01:31:39,800 --> 01:31:43,360 Speaker 1: I just sat here and thought to myself, I think 1703 01:31:43,439 --> 01:31:48,719 Speaker 1: that I can trust this person. And I was like, okay, 1704 01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:52,400 Speaker 1: and that really wasn't about me. That wasn't about me, 1705 01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:54,040 Speaker 1: because you don't know what. I don't remember what I said. 1706 01:31:54,360 --> 01:31:57,840 Speaker 1: You know how you felt, that's what it is. And 1707 01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:00,639 Speaker 1: I was like, but that was not about me, because 1708 01:32:00,720 --> 01:32:04,040 Speaker 1: I didn't force you to say anything in here, And 1709 01:32:04,200 --> 01:32:06,720 Speaker 1: she said, this is the first time that I have 1710 01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:10,920 Speaker 1: ever told my story, told my whole story, and this 1711 01:32:11,080 --> 01:32:14,800 Speaker 1: is through like beautiful tears and you haven't, like the 1712 01:32:14,880 --> 01:32:19,120 Speaker 1: person hasn't left. And I was like, yeah, and I 1713 01:32:19,240 --> 01:32:21,559 Speaker 1: didn't force you to do that. You came in here 1714 01:32:21,640 --> 01:32:24,600 Speaker 1: and you decided I'm this person, like I'm going to 1715 01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:27,880 Speaker 1: trust this person. You didn't know anything about me. I 1716 01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:31,639 Speaker 1: could get up and move to Ohio tomorrow, right, It's 1717 01:32:31,640 --> 01:32:34,720 Speaker 1: like you, but you decided in that I'm willing to 1718 01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:37,639 Speaker 1: do the scary work and I'm willing to trust somebody 1719 01:32:37,720 --> 01:32:40,120 Speaker 1: for the first time. And what you learned is that 1720 01:32:40,320 --> 01:32:43,600 Speaker 1: not everybody will leave. And that is the hard to 1721 01:32:43,680 --> 01:32:46,240 Speaker 1: scary work. It's not about me making you feel what 1722 01:32:46,479 --> 01:32:49,640 Speaker 1: a certain way. It's you learning to trust, yeah, and 1723 01:32:49,800 --> 01:32:52,360 Speaker 1: learning how to like do something differently and get a 1724 01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:55,840 Speaker 1: different result and step into new territory. And like the 1725 01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:58,960 Speaker 1: best things that clients can do is like talk about 1726 01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:01,400 Speaker 1: what it's like to be you with your therapists. Like 1727 01:33:01,560 --> 01:33:04,200 Speaker 1: talk about your perceptions of the therapist, talk about how 1728 01:33:04,280 --> 01:33:07,479 Speaker 1: you feel with them, talk about all that stuff. But yeah, 1729 01:33:07,520 --> 01:33:10,600 Speaker 1: I mean, really the attachment relationship between the client and 1730 01:33:10,640 --> 01:33:13,640 Speaker 1: the therapist the client is that like you are the 1731 01:33:13,760 --> 01:33:16,280 Speaker 1: hero of your own story. Like your therapist is not 1732 01:33:16,439 --> 01:33:20,200 Speaker 1: your hero. Um, however they might be really meaningful to 1733 01:33:20,320 --> 01:33:22,639 Speaker 1: your life, but you are your own hero. And as 1734 01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:25,519 Speaker 1: you learn to do attachment in a new way in 1735 01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:28,280 Speaker 1: the office, then you can take that out into the 1736 01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:30,800 Speaker 1: world and do that with other people around you. Yeah, 1737 01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:33,240 Speaker 1: and it is an experiment because we get to be 1738 01:33:33,439 --> 01:33:36,200 Speaker 1: somebody who kind of like it's less it's less risky. 1739 01:33:36,439 --> 01:33:38,040 Speaker 1: It is because you can say that I'm paying this 1740 01:33:38,160 --> 01:33:41,360 Speaker 1: person or this is this person's job, and we're people, 1741 01:33:41,960 --> 01:33:43,880 Speaker 1: so it still counts. But it's like, this is the 1742 01:33:43,960 --> 01:33:46,240 Speaker 1: experiment where you go when you see what it's like. 1743 01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:51,000 Speaker 1: Because my hope is the client. My clients have the 1744 01:33:51,080 --> 01:33:56,080 Speaker 1: ability at some point, it's not always the first session 1745 01:33:56,200 --> 01:33:58,000 Speaker 1: or even the first couple of months. At some point 1746 01:33:58,760 --> 01:34:01,880 Speaker 1: they feel this a fanus to just be a freaking 1747 01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:05,880 Speaker 1: hot mess and they don't have to buckle up or 1748 01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:09,880 Speaker 1: zip up, and they don't have to text me every 1749 01:34:09,960 --> 01:34:12,960 Speaker 1: day to make sure that I'm not going to fire them, 1750 01:34:14,120 --> 01:34:16,720 Speaker 1: that they just trust that they were messy and I 1751 01:34:16,840 --> 01:34:19,559 Speaker 1: still will care for them. So there you have it, guys. 1752 01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:24,200 Speaker 1: The ways to heal your your attachment. Number one, go 1753 01:34:24,320 --> 01:34:29,040 Speaker 1: to therapy. Number two create new, strong, meaningful relationships, and 1754 01:34:29,120 --> 01:34:32,439 Speaker 1: number three you develop new meaning for the old story. 1755 01:34:33,680 --> 01:34:38,959 Speaker 1: And I think that wraps it up. Yeah. Another resource 1756 01:34:39,040 --> 01:34:42,000 Speaker 1: I was just going to share two is um I've 1757 01:34:42,400 --> 01:34:45,320 Speaker 1: found this app the Gottman Card Ducks. How have you 1758 01:34:45,360 --> 01:34:48,160 Speaker 1: seen that guy? So Gottman g O T T M 1759 01:34:48,240 --> 01:34:50,640 Speaker 1: A N which is after John Gottman. He does a 1760 01:34:50,720 --> 01:34:54,040 Speaker 1: lot of work with relationships, but is a free app 1761 01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:57,360 Speaker 1: that helps you connect with people in your life. And 1762 01:34:57,479 --> 01:35:00,840 Speaker 1: so check that out if you're also wondering for like 1763 01:35:00,920 --> 01:35:06,559 Speaker 1: a resource on how to practice secure attachment and an intimacy. Yeah. So, yeah, 1764 01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:10,240 Speaker 1: this has been a quite a long episode. But maybe 1765 01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:12,000 Speaker 1: you might have to listen to it again, or maybe 1766 01:35:12,240 --> 01:35:14,680 Speaker 1: have to listen to it in pieces. But this is 1767 01:35:15,040 --> 01:35:19,160 Speaker 1: important stuff, This is necessary stuff. This is scary, challenging stuff. 1768 01:35:19,479 --> 01:35:22,920 Speaker 1: And if you are connecting to this episode really more 1769 01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:25,760 Speaker 1: than I guess every episode, but really this one, if 1770 01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:28,800 Speaker 1: you are connecting to it, I want to again offer 1771 01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:31,960 Speaker 1: yourself some grace because nobody is a d percent secure 1772 01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:35,599 Speaker 1: and if you want to do some work and look 1773 01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:38,000 Speaker 1: at this stuff, I really want to encourage you to 1774 01:35:38,120 --> 01:35:41,000 Speaker 1: reach out to a therapist. It doesn't have to be us, 1775 01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:44,680 Speaker 1: but you can't heal this alone, so so reach out 1776 01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:48,880 Speaker 1: and take the step, um and thanks for listening. Piece 1777 01:35:48,920 --> 01:36:01,360 Speaker 1: at Rainbow Trout see yuh do to