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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. The toughest job I

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Speaker 1: ever had, I guess physically was when I was growing up.

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Speaker 1: I fancied myself a football player, and in order to

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Speaker 1: stay in shape during the off season, I will cut wood.

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Speaker 1: This ranged from felling trees to also splitting the wood

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Speaker 1: with generally a sledgehammer, a wedge, a mall, and an

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Speaker 1: axe and stacking it up. Hardest job physically that I've

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Speaker 1: ever had in my life. But what comes into play

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Speaker 1: is the fact that I would have to use a chainsaw,

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Speaker 1: and I learned to use one at an early age,

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Speaker 1: and it is a tool to be respected. Today, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to talk a little bit about a case that's

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Speaker 1: come to my attention involving a chainsaw. But this chainsaw

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Speaker 1: was used and purposed in a way that not many

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Speaker 1: people would think of. Today, we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: the death and dismemberment of Margaret Craig. I'm Joseph Scott

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Speaker 1: Morgan and this is bodybacks. At this point in my life,

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Speaker 1: my grandparents have long since been deceased, and with the

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Speaker 1: passing of each one, I aggrieved immensely. I loved my

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Speaker 1: grandparents dearly on both sides, and many people can identify

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Speaker 1: with that. But never in my wildest dreams did I

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Speaker 1: ever imagine that I would be having a discussion with you,

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Speaker 1: Dave Mack, about a death involving grandmother who was apparently

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Speaker 1: at some point in time really loved by the two

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Speaker 1: alleged perpetrators, and in that discussion we would talk about

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Speaker 1: chainsaw dismemberment and disposal of a body using a barbecue grill.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of anything like this before?

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Speaker 2: No, this is a whole new level of discussed depravity.

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Speaker 2: I don't know when. I don't know when things changed,

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Speaker 2: and maybe they didn't. Maybe this has always gone on

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Speaker 2: and we just never heard about it. But at no

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Speaker 2: point in time in my life did it ever occur

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Speaker 2: to me that we might have a story about loved ones.

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Speaker 2: And you mentioned how much you care about your grandparents.

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Speaker 2: This is three generations where the victim is at the top,

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Speaker 2: she's a beloved grandmother and her own daughter and granddaughter

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Speaker 2: used the chainsaw and the grill. You can figure out

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Speaker 2: the rest. And we're not talking about you and I

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Speaker 2: out camping teaching our grandchildren how to live off the

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Speaker 2: land during a camping weekend.

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Speaker 1: Or not you begin to think about, well, how do

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Speaker 1: you go about disposing of human remains? There a multitude

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Speaker 1: of ways this is done. Are you thinking in the

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Speaker 1: context of, well, how do we do it respectfully? Well,

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Speaker 1: most people, their default position is always simply prepping the

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Speaker 1: body to a certain degree and burying the body right, right.

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Speaker 1: But it does seem and I've made this comment both

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Speaker 1: on body bags and I'll continue to make it on

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Speaker 1: media platforms. I don't know if there is some kind

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Speaker 1: of desensitization that's taking place. I do not recall having

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Speaker 1: talked about so many dismemberment cases, and it's not just

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Speaker 1: this one, it is all across the country. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it seems like if people will go back and kind

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Speaker 1: of look at our catalog on body bags, you'll see

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Speaker 1: that there's a number of these cases there that have

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Speaker 1: occurred in recent history, certainly in true crime. It just

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Speaker 1: seems like that it's coming about. And what's troubling about

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Speaker 1: it is that there is I think think I use

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Speaker 1: the term a callous and I mean that in a

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Speaker 1: physical sense. We think about we developed callouses on our hands,

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Speaker 1: and how appropriate since we're mentioned in my opening about

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Speaker 1: taking down trees and splitting them and that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: and I had these huge calluses on my hands. You

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Speaker 1: developed these hands in this kind of work, but there's

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Speaker 1: a callous It seems as though that people that might

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Speaker 1: have thought about this in the past are now crossing

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Speaker 1: over that boundary and going into this very dark area

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Speaker 1: where they have a comfort. In many of these cases

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Speaker 1: we've discussed with applying an instrument to a body and

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Speaker 1: taking it apart piece by piece, and we've covered all methodologies,

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Speaker 1: everythings from hack saws to just kitchen knives, cutlery, those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. We begin to break it down categories.

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Speaker 1: I think to this point in our library, this is

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Speaker 1: the first chainsaw case that we've covered. But it just

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Speaker 1: seems as though that people have a comfort with this.

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Speaker 1: Now it's not just about killing, it's now how do

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Speaker 1: we go about taking apart the body. That's why when

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Speaker 1: you said that it's at a whole other level, it

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Speaker 1: truly is. And it's demonstrated through this. Because you think

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Speaker 1: about a perpetrator that kill somebody and then they want

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Speaker 1: to put as much distance between their person and the

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Speaker 1: remains of the deceased as they possibly can. How many

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Speaker 1: times over the years that we cover cases where people

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Speaker 1: will just kill somebody in their runaway right, and even

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Speaker 1: in familial homicides where you've got family members, which we

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Speaker 1: do in Ms Craig's case, you have people that kill

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Speaker 1: a family member and they'll try to get out of

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Speaker 1: there as quickly as possible. This goes to another level

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Speaker 1: because now you're thinking, not only are you killing an individual,

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Speaker 1: but you're going to spend time with them, and not

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Speaker 1: just a short period of time day. You're going to

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Speaker 1: spend time with this individual with their remains in order

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Speaker 1: to dispose of them. And what the process was here

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Speaker 1: in kind of the timeline and how everything worked out,

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Speaker 1: It was amazing to me because these two women that

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Speaker 1: are allegedly associated with this homicide and dismemberment and attempted

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Speaker 1: destruction of these remains, it was a tedious process. A

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Speaker 1: chainsaw and a grill. That's two things that leave a

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Speaker 1: remnant behind. With a chainsaw, you're talking about if you've

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Speaker 1: never used one. And the thing that happens with a

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Speaker 1: chainsaw when you're applying it to a big piece of

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Speaker 1: wood is that you'll get sawdust all over you. Now

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Speaker 1: you can't avoid it. It's going to happen. You're gonna

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Speaker 1: have it in your hair, You're gonna have on your arms,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have any clothing. It'll be everywhere. And of course,

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Speaker 1: with a grill, all of us have pleasant memories. I

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Speaker 1: would think of cooking out. And that smell kind of

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Speaker 1: permeates the air, doesn't it. You get in your nostrils.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's in your hair particularly, it's this thing that

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Speaker 1: reminds you of seasons. Summer comes to mind. But in

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Speaker 1: this case, Lord have mercy. I can't imagine was going

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Speaker 1: through their minds, the perpetrators in this particular case, when

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Speaker 1: they allegedly did this deed.

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Speaker 2: You've got a seventy one year old Margaret Craig. She

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Speaker 2: has a daughter, Candace Craig, who is forty four. And

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Speaker 2: Margaret Craig has a granddaughter, the daughter of Candace Craig,

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Speaker 2: nineteen year old Celia Hardy. So we have a woman

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Speaker 2: who is beloved by her neighbors. When a neighbor had

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Speaker 2: realized that he hadn't spoken to her in several days,

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Speaker 2: he called police. Now I'm guessing here that he probably

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Speaker 2: went next door because the mother rather or Candace Craig

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Speaker 2: and her daughter, Celia. They were both there at the home,

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Speaker 2: and I'm guessing that this neighbor probably knocked on the door, Hey,

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Speaker 2: what's going on? Hadn't seen your mom in a while?

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Speaker 2: As you Okay, I kind of imagine that. I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying it happen. I'm just thinking because I can't imagine

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Speaker 2: when you know people in the house next door that

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Speaker 2: are there, but you don't see the one person you

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Speaker 2: know you expect to see there, that your first call

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Speaker 2: is not going to be to the police. You would

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Speaker 2: go next door and see, hey, what's going on. Apparently,

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Speaker 2: for whatever reason, he calls police. Haven't talked to my

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Speaker 2: neighbor in several days? Would you mind doing a welfare check?

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Speaker 2: So I think that the neighbor knew something was up.

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Speaker 1: All of us have had experience with good and bad neighbors.

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Speaker 1: I bet everybody that is within the sound of my

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Speaker 1: voice can identify with that. And sometimes you have the

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Speaker 1: good neighbors, right. We always think about the negative, But

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Speaker 1: there are those people that you live adjacent to that

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Speaker 1: you have a warm greeting for. You know, the old

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Speaker 1: idea of leaning on the fence and talking to your

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Speaker 1: neighbor and just but and you learn a lot about

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Speaker 1: people too, what their health conditions are. You understand if

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Speaker 1: they're debilitated in any way, if people are regularly coming

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Speaker 1: to visit them or their habits. She's always going out

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Speaker 1: to get her mail, maybe she cuts her own grass,

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Speaker 1: maybe she works in her garden. And when you don't

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Speaker 1: see that sends up a red flag for you.

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Speaker 2: And I'm guessing because of the fact that he picked

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Speaker 2: up a phone and called nine to one one, that

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Speaker 2: there was enough there to make him worried. So and

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Speaker 2: by the way, I'm blessed to live in a neighborhood

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Speaker 2: where we know our neighbors, and we have an elderly

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Speaker 2: neighbor that we've lived near for twenty something years, and

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Speaker 2: so we do keep up with her. She's wonderful, but

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Speaker 2: when we don't see her for a couple of days,

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Speaker 2: we do reach out to make sure everything's okay. So

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Speaker 2: here we are. It's Friday afternoon, one point thirty in

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Speaker 2: the day and officers show up at the house of

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Speaker 2: Margaret Craig, knock on the door. Margaret Craig's daughter greets

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Speaker 2: them at the front door. Candice Craig and the police say, hey,

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Speaker 2: neighbor called hasn't seen your mom for a while. Would

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Speaker 2: you mind if we come in and take a lok

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Speaker 2: look around? Got nothing to hide here? Come on in. Now,

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Speaker 2: what kind of mindset do you have when you know

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Speaker 2: what's in the basement, You know what's in there, But sure,

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Speaker 2: come on in. Police, she's fine. Look around, you know

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Speaker 2: she's not fine. You think they could come up with

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Speaker 2: some other story of she went to visit a relative,

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Speaker 2: you know, any number of things other than well, come

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Speaker 2: on in. But that's what she said. So police come in,

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Speaker 2: They look around a little bit, and they go downstairs.

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Speaker 2: Police say that as they went downstairs towards the basement,

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Speaker 2: they smelled the odor of decomposition and simultaneously see blood

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Speaker 2: near three trash bags. How quickly does the odor of

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Speaker 2: decomposition arrive after the death of someone.

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Speaker 1: Well, the fact that you're talking about plastic trash bags,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that people really realize how plastic impacts

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Speaker 1: biological substances. Talk about this actually quite a bit in

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Speaker 1: crime scene investigation. How we try very hard not to

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Speaker 1: package things in plastic. We prefer paper. Think about when

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Speaker 1: we were kids and you went to the grocery store

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Speaker 1: and there were nothing but paper bags, and they have

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Speaker 1: a particular smell to them, don't they. I still remember that,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, and nowadays everything is plastic.

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Speaker 2: Right used to wrap me in paper?

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Speaker 1: They actually did as a matter of fact, And this

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Speaker 1: is kind of a ghoulish aside. When I first started

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Speaker 1: working in the morgue, we had butcher paper in the more.

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Speaker 1: That's how we would prepare bodies after we had done autopsy.

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Speaker 1: We had huge, massive rolls of butcher paper and we

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Speaker 1: would wrap the bodies in butcher paper. Body bags were

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Speaker 1: considered to be a luxury, so you'd wrap them in

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Speaker 1: the butcher paper in the funeral home would come by,

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Speaker 1: picked them up and place them in there. And the

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Speaker 1: thing about plastic is, you know you're talking about plastic bags,

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Speaker 1: is that it's almost like putting a biological specimen in

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Speaker 1: a hothouse because you think about the bag sweating heat

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Speaker 1: and that moisture speed up the process. Actually when body

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Speaker 1: parts are placed into a plastic bag, and so it

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Speaker 1: promotes decomposition, and with decomposition, what do you get? You

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Speaker 1: get a foul odor. Can you imagine being this police

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Speaker 1: officer or officers that show up at this scene and

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Speaker 1: they walk down there, they see the bags, they see

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Speaker 1: what they believe is blood. But they here's another little nugget.

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Speaker 1: They looked down on the floor and they saw they

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Speaker 1: probably didn't actually recognize it, but they thought that it

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Speaker 1: might be brain matter. And so you're looking at that

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Speaker 1: element in addition to that. So back to the initial

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Speaker 1: question first. With bodies, many times you're first alert. And

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Speaker 1: this is used as a literary device in movies. People

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Speaker 1: will say, what's that smell? But that's the truth. It's

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Speaker 1: actually one of those things you see in entertainment that

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Speaker 1: is reality smell decomposing bodies many times long before you

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Speaker 1: ever put eyes on them. I remember being under a

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Speaker 1: house in particular, where a grandson had killed his grandmother

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Speaker 1: and buried her underneath the house, and we were under

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Speaker 1: this thing trying to excavate the body, and we didn't

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Speaker 1: see the body. It took us hours to excavate this area,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I'm in the stoopid position the entire time.

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Speaker 1: It's really hot, it's down here in the Deep South.

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Speaker 1: I smelled her the remains rather for a couple of

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Speaker 1: hours before I ever laid eyes on her. That's how

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Speaker 1: powerful this is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. John Wayne Gacy buried bodies under his house.

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Speaker 1: I know. And what did he have under his house?

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Speaker 1: It remember the sump pump or I can't remember. It

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Speaker 1: backed up. And so when those investigators, when they pulled

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Speaker 1: us floorboards up in that environment, they were essentially in

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Speaker 1: this muck with these floating remains where he was trying

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Speaker 1: to bury everything. So you see the plastic, and I

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Speaker 1: think about that, and I think about probably what they

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Speaker 1: were sensing. Now, I'm not saying that you would not

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Speaker 1: have smelled decomposing body without plastic. You still would have.

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Speaker 1: But when you begin to place things into plastics like this,

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Speaker 1: it prompts breaking down. And the fact that this individual

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Speaker 1: that answered the door allegedly felt comfortable enough to say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: come on in, Yeah, come on in, Yeah, Yeah, we've

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Speaker 1: got nothing to hide here. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And to back up, all right, when police arrive and

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Speaker 2: I said, the daughter allegedly here. Because this has not

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Speaker 2: been adjudicated, we have seventy one year old Margaret Craig

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Speaker 2: is the deceased. We do know that we know her daughter,

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Speaker 2: Candace Craig, is forty four and she was there. And

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Speaker 2: we know that Celia Hardy, nineteen year old victim's granddaughter,

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Speaker 2: of Candace Craig. Now the police arrive, they go downstairs.

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Speaker 2: They say they smell the odor of decomposition. They see

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Speaker 2: blood near trash bags. Now, they had one of the

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Speaker 2: bags that wasn't sealed and they were able to look

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Speaker 2: in that without you know, it was obvious, without touching,

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Speaker 2: moving or anything. And they noticed things that appeared to

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Speaker 2: them to be the brain matter and things like that

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Speaker 2: of a body. So they start going back up the stairs.

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Speaker 2: They know they've got to call in forensics. They got

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Speaker 2: to call a team in here. And as they're going

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Speaker 2: up the stairs, well to back up. When they were

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Speaker 2: going down the stairs, one of the police officers noted, hey,

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Speaker 2: there's a knife ray here. It was just on the stairs,

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Speaker 2: and on the way back up the stairs the knife

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Speaker 2: was gone. To most people, you would think going down

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Speaker 2: you see a knife and coming up it's gone. And

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Speaker 2: the only person here is the woman who allowed you

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Speaker 2: in the house. She's got something to hide. So now

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Speaker 2: they begin the process of figuring out what took place.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, this is where everything falls apart or

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Speaker 2: comes together, depending on your point of view. So Joe,

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Speaker 2: when this happens and police call for I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you call for backup or whatever. But you've got

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Speaker 2: police officers who were there to do a welfare check.

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Speaker 2: Within a matter of minutes, they're faced with a gruesome

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Speaker 2: smell in sight. Who do they call? Do they call

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Speaker 2: forensics right away?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah they would. And the person that actually made

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Speaker 1: the determination that they were dealing with human remains, they're

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Speaker 1: framing them as a forensic investigator. I'm imagining that this

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Speaker 1: is probably somebody from the m's office up in Maryland.

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Speaker 1: They don't have corner system. They have medical examiners system.

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Speaker 1: And I've actually done training up in Baltimore with some

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Speaker 1: of these folks.

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Speaker 2: Is there a big difference between a medical examiner and

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Speaker 2: a corner.

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Speaker 1: There are corners are lay lay people most of the time,

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Speaker 1: and they're mighty fine corners that are out there that

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Speaker 1: are highly trained and very professional what they do. But

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Speaker 1: they're elected officials and depend upon the state. You know,

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Speaker 1: they'll come from all walks of life. But with medical

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Speaker 1: examiners and medical examiner systems, you're going to have obviously

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Speaker 1: a physician that's the boss, a forensic pathologist, but you're investigators.

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Speaker 1: You go places like New York, believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: people don't realize this. You go like New York for instance,

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Speaker 1: and other jurisdictions, the investigators that they have will actually

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Speaker 1: be physician assistants or nurse practitioners. So these people are

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Speaker 1: highly trained from a medical perspective and from a pathology perspective.

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Speaker 1: I want to back up a little bit. One of

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Speaker 1: the most terrifying issues with this. You mentioned that knife

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Speaker 1: that had been on the stairs, and when I teach

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Speaker 1: crime scene investigation to my students at university, I try

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Speaker 1: to let them know, particularly those that are going to

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Speaker 1: be police officers that are just coming into the field

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Speaker 1: or think they're going to be, you never allow anybody

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Speaker 1: to follow you into a location that you're searching that

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Speaker 1: is not part of your team or this is not

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Speaker 1: a police officer. For all we know, the individual could

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Speaker 1: have picked up that knife and buried it in the

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Speaker 1: cobs neck, right.

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Speaker 2: I wondered the same thing. Did they freak out when

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Speaker 2: they realized the knife was gone or did they tie

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Speaker 2: or main calum to figure out what happened? We don't know.

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Speaker 2: They didn't really say yeah.

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Speaker 1: And we don't know at this point, Tom, And it's

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Speaker 1: speculative on our part. But here's the problem. They're going

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Speaker 1: on a welfare chech Who in the world would ever

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Speaker 1: expect to find a grandmother that has been dismembered and,

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Speaker 1: as we'll find out, partially consumed by fire in the

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Speaker 1: basement of this home. That's why our working philosophy is

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Speaker 1: that every death is a homicide until we can prove otherwise.

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Speaker 1: My kids make fun of me for this. I've never

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Speaker 1: been a fan of doing puzzles. Everybody thinks that. I

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Speaker 1: guess for some reason, because I was a forensic investigator.

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Speaker 1: I enjoyed doing things like puzzles. Did you also know

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you this, Dave, and people will

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Speaker 1: find this kind of interesting. Did you know that I

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Speaker 1: have played Clue since I was nine? I think? Did

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Speaker 1: you know? I have never won a game of Clue?

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Speaker 1: I never have. It's just it's one of those things

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Speaker 1: and I find it tedious. I don't know why it is,

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Speaker 1: but when we're talking about this case with miss Craig,

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Speaker 1: this is a puzzle in both a literal and a

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Speaker 1: figurative way.

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Speaker 2: We know when police got there for their welfare check

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Speaker 2: and fairly quickly on figured out something Haines had taken

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Speaker 2: place and made the call for experts to come in.

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Speaker 2: They separated the mother, Candace Craig, who's forty four, and

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Speaker 2: her daughter, Sealia Hardy, nineteen, and while Candace Craig didn't

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Speaker 2: volunteer a lot of information to police, they read them

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Speaker 2: their rights. You have the right to remain silent, but

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Speaker 2: Celia Hardy said, fine, I want to talk. And it

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Speaker 2: was nineteen year old Salia Hardy, the granddaughter of the victim,

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Speaker 2: daughter of the alleged perpetrator of the crime, who actually

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Speaker 2: gave us all the information we know of what took place.

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Speaker 2: And what she told police is that she heard an

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Speaker 2: argument taking place between her mother and her grandmother, and

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Speaker 2: her grandmother was telling Margaret Craig, the victim, was telling

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Speaker 2: Candace Craig, suspect that she was going to call police

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Speaker 2: because her credit card had been used by Salia Hardy,

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Speaker 2: the nineteen year old granddaughter of the victim, and she

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00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 2: was mad it was done without her approval and mother

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Speaker 2: and daughter were having a big argument about it. And

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Speaker 2: it was when Candace Craig, forty four years old, tells

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Speaker 2: her mother she ain't calling the cops about this, that

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Speaker 2: Celia Hardy claimed she went to sleep and when she

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Speaker 2: woke up the next morning she knew they had been

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Speaker 2: they had been fighting. Next morning, she wakes up and

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Speaker 2: there's a blue tub in her room containing the now

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Speaker 2: deceased seventy one year old Margaret Craig, Meaning she can't

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Speaker 2: tell us what took place during or after the fight.

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Speaker 2: She can only tell us that when she woke up,

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Speaker 2: Grandma was dead and in a tub. And then she

359
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 2: begins the story of the chainsaw, the knives, and the

360
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 2: barbecue grill. So when police get it down to this

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Speaker 2: point where they now know that they have their victim

362
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Speaker 2: and alleged suspect, how did they dig into this to

363
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Speaker 2: determine what was used first, the chainsaw the knife? Because

364
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 2: that seems to me like it would matter. And again

365
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Speaker 2: it goes back to what you said at the very beginning.

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Speaker 2: Why do we seem to have more of these types

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Speaker 2: of dismemberment stories. The woman was already dead.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea. At some point in Tom, you

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Speaker 1: and I are going to sit down, We're going to

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Speaker 1: begin to log these because there's a pattern here. I

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Speaker 1: see it. I'm referring to dismemberment cases. But first off,

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Speaker 1: this seems highly disorganized. And when I say that, I

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Speaker 1: mean like when they talk about these kind of organized

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Speaker 1: and disorganized kinds of crimes, it seems like something that

375
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Speaker 1: would be This is not a methodically planned kind of

376
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Speaker 1: thing where you've got everything laid out, you know how

377
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 1: you're going to do it. Some grand plan has gone

378
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Speaker 1: into action. Here, you lure a person in, you take

379
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Speaker 1: their life. Still, to this point, they have not released

380
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Speaker 1: actually what the cause of death is. And I don't

381
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Speaker 1: know if that goes to their desire not to release

382
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Speaker 1: that information or if it goes to how much confusion

383
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Speaker 1: might exist. I know this. I know that when police

384
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Speaker 1: did this initial walk through at the scene, one of

385
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Speaker 1: the things that was kind of ominous that they noticed

386
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Speaker 1: there you had a case, a chainsaw case, then you

387
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Speaker 1: had a chainsaw. How exactly do you determine in the morgue,

388
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Speaker 1: for instance, when you're examining these remains, what came first.

389
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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to weasel out of this question, but

390
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Speaker 1: that's very difficult to answer without more data. I will

391
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Speaker 1: tell you this, the ferocity of a chainsaw, and just

392
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Speaker 1: for people that are not necessarily up to speed, no

393
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 1: pun intended, what speed a chainsaw actually works at or

394
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:03,640
Speaker 1: functions at? A chainsaw roughly moves at about eighty to

395
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: ninety feet per second. That is the chain itself going

396
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: around the saw bar, which is what they call the

397
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 1: saw bar, is what the chain is actually hooked to,

398
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Speaker 1: and that translates roughly into about fifty five miles per hour.

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Speaker 1: All right, just envision that just for a second. So

400
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Speaker 1: if you think about your tire spinning on the road

401
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 1: as it's conveying you down the road, that is the rate.

402
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 1: Now that can increase because they have variable speed. You

403
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: can pull a trigger on it. You know, it'll speed up,

404
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 1: it'll slow down, that sort of thing. And it has

405
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 1: to because it has to generate enough speed in order

406
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 1: to cut through these surfaces. And you think about primarily

407
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,719
Speaker 1: with chainsaws, you think about going through wood. Here's another

408
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: interesting kind of side about chainsaws is that the blade,

409
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: if you want to call it a blade, it's actually

410
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: multiple blades or teeth that a chainsaw has. When they

411
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: hit the surface of a solid object, they begin to

412
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: kind of chew through it. And it's not precision, man,

413
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you. When you look at this, you

414
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 1: can kind of see, particularly when you're going through these

415
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: fleshy sides like this, you're going through soft tissue. Then

416
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: you hit bone. It literally tears. It tears the skin

417
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: as it's going through, but it goes at such an

418
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 1: incredible rate it slices through it like butter. One of

419
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: my big questions is, as the chainsaw is being used

420
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: on this Craig's remains, I'm thinking, did the perpetrators, the

421
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: alleged perpetrators in this case, did they suddenly have this

422
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: idea that the remains of or the particular remains of

423
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: their loved one are being deposited on them? Because as

424
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 1: I said earlier, you know my experience were using chainsaws.

425
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 1: You can't escape sawdust. How much more so with a

426
00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: chainsaw where it's going through multiple layers of tissue. You're

427
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: talking about skin, you're talking about muscle, you're talking about sinew, bone,

428
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: the bone dust. Oh and by the way, we've got blood.

429
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 2: There's got to be blood everywhere. The human body has

430
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 2: a lot of blood.

431
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it would be you know, we talk about

432
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: this idea of cast off, and most people think about

433
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: cast off where And I always describe it when I'm

434
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: teaching as dipping a taking up paintbrush and dipping it

435
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: into a pail of paint, right and kind of slinging

436
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: it over your head. You know, you get it on

437
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: the ceiling or on the wall. I've seen perpetrators that

438
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: actually have it down their back in a diagonal pattern.

439
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: But with the speed at which a chainsaw moves, you're

440
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: going to see this almost fine histamine like deposition. And

441
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: one of the ways we measure velocity on blood stains

442
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: is we categorize it rather we have low velocity, we

443
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: have medium velocity, then we have high velocity. I would

444
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: think that with chainsaws you're going to see some high

445
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 1: velocity deposition, and most of the time high velocity deposition

446
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: is associated with gunfire. So just so people understand and

447
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: kind of get an idea as to what it looks like,

448
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: the lower the velocity, the bigger the droplet, And that's

449
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 1: kind of how we figure this out. It's not rocket science.

450
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: That's kind of how we figure this out. So if

451
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: you have high velocity blood staining that's going on or deposition,

452
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: it will look very tiny. It almost looks many times

453
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: like sprayed tomato juice or sprayed grape juice, where you

454
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: get these fine little droplets. If you put a magnifying

455
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: glass over it, you'll see that they are actually individual

456
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: little droplets, but they're coming off at such a high

457
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: rate of speed that the droplets themselves are very tiny,

458
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: very very tiny. And that's kind of how we delineate

459
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: in this world of interpretation of blood staining about what

460
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: went on and in this environment. When you're talking about

461
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: the dismemberment of human remains using a chainsaw, David's going

462
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: to be everywhere. It would be everywhere, so the more

463
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: like when you change your position, this is one of

464
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: the things that happens with chainsaws. As you change positions

465
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: with the chainsaw relative to the target, you're going to

466
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 1: get another pattern that will develop. So you can have

467
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: these street patterns that are kind of interlacing on all

468
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 1: of these surfaces where just imagine you've got big x's everywhere,

469
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: or almost like these aster ses. They're very linear, but

470
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: you might have them overlapping depending upon how much you're

471
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: moving that chainsaw blade around, and it can be quite confusing.

472
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: You'll come up with a very unique pattern.

473
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: Investigators did say, you know, they found human remains on

474
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: the chainsaw when they seized it. But I was thinking, Joe,

475
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: I'm trying to picture the order. Okay, we know about

476
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 2: the welfare check. We know, police show up, all right,

477
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: Candice Craig allows police in. They look around, the smell

478
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 2: the odor of decomposition. They see blood around trash bags,

479
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: glancing into a trash bag. Hey, I think we see

480
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 2: brain matter in here. They calling the experts who identify

481
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 2: the body parts in the bag are in fact human,

482
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 2: and they talk to the nineteen year old daughter, so

483
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: Leah Hardy, who then explains what took place leading them

484
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: to this moment in time. But what we don't have

485
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: is the order in which it took place. And I

486
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 2: was thinking that based on the fact there was a knife.

487
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 2: I'm thinking that being I'm assuming that these suspects here

488
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: are amateurs at this, that they don't regularly dismember bodies.

489
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 2: We don't have any proof of that, but I'm assuming

490
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: that we have a body. We got to get rid

491
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: of this. And in that panic you mentioned, panic chaos

492
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 2: that they grab a knife. We'll just cut her up

493
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: and we'll dispose of her. And then they realize one,

494
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: there's blood everywhere too. This knife really isn't cutting through.

495
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 2: This is a lot tougher than we thought. Hey, there's

496
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: a chainsaw over here, and I'm putting all this together

497
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: in my head, and I'm thinking only because the job

498
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: that I do in reporting and that I've talked to

499
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: you about, do I know what really is taking place there?

500
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: What these two women are finding out about a deceased body,

501
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: and what is coming out and what Because they said

502
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: they found cleaning supplies downstairs, meaning they had a plan

503
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: We're going to dismember, clean up and get rid. They

504
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: had the trash bags, but it was a much bigger

505
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: task than they anticipated. Allegedly, it seems.

506
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: There's really no methodology here where, you know, if you

507
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: think about how you would go about it scientifically, you know,

508
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: if we were in the Morguean we were having to

509
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: dismember a remain, which we have done and which still

510
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: goes on. There's certain times when that's required, you have

511
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: to take parts of bodies off. There's a methodology to it,

512
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: and certainly there's the appropriate tools for the task that

513
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: are constructed for this. So you're faced with this idea

514
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: and I love what you said about the knife. This

515
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: is not getting it here because it's insufficient to the task. Okay,

516
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: let's leap from here and let's go to chainsaw. Well,

517
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: now you're going to the opposite end of the spectrum,

518
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 1: because if you think you had trouble wielding the knife,

519
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: now you've got this mechanical device that is going to

520
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: wreak utter havoc on the target. And now you've really

521
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: got a mess. And so, oh my gosh, what do

522
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: we do now? And you're faced with this, You're faced

523
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: with this if you are a perpetrator, and I mean

524
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: that in a blanket statement over any kind of case

525
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: like this of dismemberment, What am I going to do

526
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: with these remains? If this case couldn't be any more ghastly,

527
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: I think the fact that there was an attempt somewhere

528
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: along the way to render down the body using heat,

529
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: according to the authorities and the solicitor, the prosecutor in particular,

530
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: up there, a grill came into play, Dave. Where like

531
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: a grill that we would use to barbecue with or

532
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: to cook with outdoors, you know, with our family. I

533
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: think about that with this, how many times had that

534
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: grill been used over the years, perhaps for celebrations, you know,

535
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: to have a meal with a family. You're cooking hot

536
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: dogs and hamburgers. They're going to use a grill to

537
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: get rid of Missus Craig's remains, And there was also

538
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: a brushfire that according to a couple of witnesses apparently

539
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: they thought that they saw human remains being placed into

540
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: the brushfire, and it was just inside the there's like

541
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: a big wooded area back behind this home. So allegedly

542
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: you've got these two elements that are involved as well.

543
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: So it's not just a matter of trying to take

544
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: apart the body which is all over the board here,

545
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: because I got to back up again. Brain matter. How

546
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: in the world did you get brain matter? Did you

547
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: apply the chainsaw to the head in order to take

548
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: it apart?

549
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: Would you be tasked with trying to determine why the

550
00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: brain matter was on the floor, because I think that

551
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,479
Speaker 2: would have a lot to do with the crime that

552
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 2: the people are alleged to have committed.

553
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and because you have brain matter, you have a

554
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: specific anatomical element that you're going to want to examine

555
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: very very carefully in this case, Dave, and that is

556
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: obviously the skull. One discipline that would come into this

557
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: case that seems as though it is probably being visited

558
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: far more frequently than any other time in the past,

559
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: is going to be your tool mark expert, because the

560
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: tool mark expert will actually be able to examine any

561
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: of these markings on the bone in particular relative to

562
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: this type of chainsaw. Okay, and the knife too as well,

563
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: but with the chainsaw in particular. And when you go

564
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: to places like say, for instance, the FBI is you know,

565
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: the FBI, in their forensic lab, they will have access

566
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: to probably just about every kind of chainsaw that there

567
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: is out there, and that's their tool mark section. And

568
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: what they will do is or they'll will go purchase

569
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,719
Speaker 1: one that's similar to the one that was recovered at

570
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: the scene, and they will probably get wood. They will

571
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: do a test on wood to see what kind of

572
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,719
Speaker 1: tool markets left behind by said chainsaw that is of

573
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: the same manufacturer and same type on the wood, and

574
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: does it compare up to what they're seeing on the bone.

575
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: That's just mine numbing. I had no idea, Joe, no idea.

576
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, when you're going to move forward with a

577
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: case like this and you try to figure it out,

578
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: the one thing that is left behind that ultimately is

579
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: going to have to speak to this jury is going

580
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: to be the science.

581
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: As it stands right now. The charges in this case.

582
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: Candace Craig, forty four year old daughter of the victim

583
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 2: and mother of the other suspect. Candace Craig is charged

584
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,959
Speaker 2: with first and second degree murder. Her daughter, Celia Hardy,

585
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: is charged with accessory after the fact, and both are

586
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: in the custody of the Department of Corrections.

587
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks