1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: Col Zone media. 2 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 2: In the last few weeks, indeed the last few months, 3 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 2: the eyes of the world have been on the trusties 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 2: afflicted on the people of Palestine on a daily basis. 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 2: For the first time in most of our lifetimes, tens 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 2: of thousands of people have taken to the streets to 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 2: lift their voices for a stateless station of Palestine and 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 2: against Israel's un checked mass murder of civilians. It's something 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 2: I never thought I would see in the US, and 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 2: one of my first visits here, I was staying at 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: a bed and breakfast in the Bronx in late December. 12 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 2: It was cold and I was wearing a kafir to 13 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 2: stay warm, as I still often do. I remember wearing 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 2: it while I was talking to small guys while I 15 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: was waiting for the train, and we talked about Palestine 16 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: for a long time. I ended up giving one of 17 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: them my kafir and he gave me some cool badgets, 18 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 2: so I still have one jacket somewhere. I was hopeful 19 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: after that, but since then I've lived here for more 20 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 2: than a decade. It was really not for about fifteen 21 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: years that I saw someone else in the US without 22 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: a direct connection to Palestine who wanted to show up 23 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: for the Palestinians. It's an important cause and it's one 24 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 2: that we've been supporting here on our podcast with our 25 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 2: coverage and speaking for myself also with my presence when 26 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 2: I can. But as the world looked at Gaza, bombs 27 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 2: also fell on Kurdistan. It's equally hard, if not harder, 28 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: to find solidarity for the Kurdish freedom movement in the 29 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 2: United States. I have a Kurdish kafir as well. A 30 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 2: Kurdish migrant there met in the mountains gave it to 31 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: me on one cold night last year after I said 32 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 2: good evening to him in Comanche. Stinks of campfires and 33 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: cigarettes and I wearried all the time. I don't think 34 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 2: anyone has ever recognized it, let alone said anything positive 35 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: about it. But someone did once ask me if it 36 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 2: was a rasped thing. So while our eyes have been 37 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: on Gaza, those of Turkish drones and warplanes have been 38 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: on the mountains of southern Kurdistan. Bombs have been going 39 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: off in kurdis Dine for a very long time. Indeed, 40 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 2: before Gernica, Britain was dropping bombs on people in the 41 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 2: Middle East without paintings to commemorate it. State boundaries and 42 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: alliances have changed a lot since those first poems, as 43 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: has technology, but the fact that death from above has 44 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 2: remained a consistent tool of the colonial state hasn't changed. 45 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: When I was in kurdis Dan in October twenty twenty three, 46 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: it was amidst almost constant drone strikes. I had to 47 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 2: conduct my interviews in a climate of secrecy and concern, 48 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: somewhat for my own safety, but also for the safety 49 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: of my interviewees, who took great and serious personal risks 50 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 2: to come and meet me. One of the people I 51 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: met was Zagros Heuer, a spokesman for the kurdis Dan 52 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 2: Communities Union or in Kurdish Koma sivakn Kurdistdani, it's generally 53 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: known as the KSEK by its Curtis initials. Recently I 54 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: connected with Zagros again and I asked him to explain 55 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 2: this latest round of aggression. 56 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: Hello, dear James, I hope you're doing well. 57 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 4: As far as your first question is concerned, I can 58 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 4: say that this operation has started from sixteenth of April, 59 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 4: six days before advanced visit to Baghdad, and in the 60 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 4: last weeks the Tekish Army has extended these operations and 61 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 4: this invading army has moved further deep into the Iraqi 62 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 4: territory and the Kurdistan region. Now they have set up checkpoints, 63 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 4: they stop civilians, they interrogate them. According to CPT report, 64 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,119 Speaker 4: CPT stands for Community Community Peace Making Teams. 65 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 3: It is. 66 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 4: A civil society organization active in Iraq and Kurdistan Region 67 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 4: of Iraq. According to CPT report, in the last months, 68 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 4: there has been two hundred thirty eight bombardments in those 69 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 4: areas and the two thousand hectares of agricultural land have 70 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 4: been burned to ashes. And now six hundred two villages 71 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 4: are under the threat of displacement and one hundred and 72 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 4: sixty two of them have already been displaced. 73 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 3: They have been raised to earth. From the start of this. 74 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 4: Year, according to CPP data, oney seven hundred attacks have 75 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 4: been have been done and this comes against the backdrop 76 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 4: of attacks in twenty twenty three where one thy five 77 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 4: hundred forty eight bombardments have taken place. 78 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: If you're not familiar with the KCK on his behalfs 79 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 2: are Grossi speaking, you can think of it as the 80 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 2: umbrella group that unites various Kurdish freedom movements in Bakur 81 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 2: north but Sure or south or west, and Rodulat or east, 82 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 2: to use the Kurdish terms. These parts of the Kurdish 83 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 2: homeland are found in different states respectively. They are in Turkey, Iraq, Syria, 84 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: and Iran. In each of these states, Kurdish people represent 85 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 2: a minority. Under the Assad regime. In Syria, Syrian Kurds 86 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 2: were stripped of their citizenship and forced out of their 87 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 2: homes and what is known as the Arab Belt program. 88 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 2: In Turkey, they've been bombed, banned from speaking their language, 89 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,239 Speaker 2: and even have their very existence denied by the state. 90 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: In Iran, tens of thousands of Kurds were killed when 91 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 2: they rose up for autonomy in nineteen seventy nine, and 92 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: they still cannot teach their children in their own language. 93 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: In Iraq, they were subjected to genocidal violence, chemical weapons, 94 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: and the murder enforced Arabization of tens of thousands of 95 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 2: Kurds during what is known as the Anfhal. If you 96 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: ever find yourself in Sulomania or Slomani as it's known 97 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 2: in Kurdish, you can visit the Incredible Museum there, which 98 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: documents the tortured history of the Kurdish people at the 99 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: hands of the Iraqi state. It's a very moving place. 100 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: On entering the museum, you'll walk through a hallway that's 101 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: covered from floor to ceiling with broken pieces of mirrors. 102 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,119 Speaker 2: Each represents a life cut short during the anph After 103 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 2: this entrance, the first exhibit you'll see has a large 104 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: sign that says, in those days, we had no friends 105 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 2: but the mountains. It's an old and sometimes overused aphorism 106 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: about the Kurds, but it's not untrue. In the mountains 107 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: of southern Kurdistan. The Kurdistan Freedom Movement aims to liberate 108 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 2: the Kurdish people from all four states, and indeed from 109 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 2: the state altogether, and it's in these mountains that's found 110 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 2: a place where it could avoid state violence. The mountains 111 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: of Kurdistan have long provided a safe place, and especially 112 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 2: in recent years, the mountains of Iraqi Kurdistan controlled by 113 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 2: Baffet Talabani's Patriotic Union of Kurdistan which shares power in 114 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 2: the Kurdistan Autonomous Region of Iraq with the Kurdistan Democratic 115 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: Party headed by Musud Barzani. The Kurdish Freedom Movement, that 116 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: is the casey K, has been able to exist largely 117 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: without the state. This, of course has always been unpopular 118 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: in Anchoror, and he didn't Bagdad. A recent offensive by 119 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 2: Turkey seek not only to displace the PKK that's the 120 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 2: Curdistan Workers Party which is part of the k c 121 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: K and its allies from the mountains, but also to 122 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: extend their state control there. Now, I could go on 123 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: f on a diversion about James Scott here, but that's 124 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: another episode that I'm working on, so I'll spare you Instead. 125 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: I asked Mohammed Hamasila, a Kurdish historian, to explain the 126 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 2: impact of this latest round of aggression and how local 127 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: people felt about it. 128 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 5: People here in Samni, in the p K controlled area 129 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 5: or even in Kulasan, our sympathy with PK sympathy with 130 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 5: the sympathy so they see the really extra struggle against 131 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 5: an enemy went to invent the whole son went to 132 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 5: move the want to burn the vocal stand is in 133 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 5: my point of view, it's it's not that the case 134 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 5: of of peak of and there are there they have 135 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 5: the same issue on the same stand with with with 136 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 5: with the with the Sirian part of Augustan. 137 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 6: People here. So I'm especially in getting one or not 138 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 6: the pewty control. I think that. 139 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 5: With the with the struggle of Java, the struggle of 140 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 5: of and they did very issue for for for their 141 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 5: people and they have actually very concrete program for for 142 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 5: the future. 143 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: Turkey, however, seeing the existence of the movement as a 144 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 2: threat to its national security, has begun a campaign to 145 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: eliminate the movement wherever it finds it. As Muhammad mentioned, 146 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 2: the history of the Kurdish people in Turkey is one 147 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 2: that's riddled with state of violence, and it's that which 148 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: I want to discuss today. Turkey has long vacillated between 149 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: a genocidal denial of the existence of Kurdish people, recognizing 150 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: that they exist only in so far as it allows 151 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: them to be targets for bombing. We could really start 152 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 2: this history almost anywhere in the twentieth century. Indeed, following 153 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 2: a series of suppressed rebellions, the entirety of northern Kurdistan 154 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 2: was closed military area in which Turkey did not allow 155 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: foreigners from nineteen twenty five to nineteen sixty five. But 156 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: I want to start it just after a coup in 157 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty, when Abdullah Oujelen had recently founded the PKK 158 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 2: or Kurdistan Workers' Party and was beginning to view a 159 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 2: vision of Kurdish liberation that was rooted in a Marxist, 160 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: Leninist and socialist analysis and ideas of national liberation. Soon 161 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: after the nineteen eighty coup, Turkey began to refer to 162 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 2: the Kurds as Mountain Turks, and although it doesn't do 163 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 2: this as much anymore, it did recently release school books 164 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: in the Aarbacere, a majority Kurdish region, that made no 165 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: reference to the Kurds or their language, and asserted that 166 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 2: people that spoke a dialect of Turkish don't they speak Kurdish. 167 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: It's this denial of their very existence. Zagrest told me 168 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 2: that made the Kurdish Freedom Guerrillas take up arms in 169 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four, which is actually forty years ago. Yesterday, 170 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: you were listening to this on the day it comes out. 171 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 4: But after the military of nineteen eighty and the inhumane 172 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 4: tortures in the notorious prison of the Arbaker Armed City, 173 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 4: the movement embarked on a strategy of legitimate self defense, 174 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 4: on which the military struggle against the Turkish state starting 175 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 4: from fifteen of August nineteen eighty. 176 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 2: Four, Since then, there have been periods of ceasefire and 177 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: periods of conflict, with tens of thousands of lives lost. 178 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: Both sides have killed civilians as part of their attacks 179 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 2: on the other. The most recentcies fire was signed twenty thirteen, 180 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 2: and as a result, the PKK began slowly withdrawing to 181 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 2: the mountains of Iraqi, Kurdistan. In twenty fifteen, when the 182 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: Syrian Kurdish YPG and YPGA fighters were leading the battle 183 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 2: against ISIS, Turkey broke the ceasefire between the PKK and 184 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: itself began attacking the Kurdish fighters, forcing them into a 185 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 2: war on two fronts. As far as Turkey is concerned, 186 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 2: the YPG, YPJ, KCK, YBS in Azed Areas and all 187 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 2: other elements of the Kurdistan Freedom Movement are just different 188 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: names for the PKK, which it considers to be a 189 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: terrorist organization. Everyday life for Kurdish people in Turkey can 190 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: be hard. I've spoken to hundreds, if not thousands of 191 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 2: them in the last year, often sitting around fires in 192 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 2: the mountains, working together to build wooden shelters for their children, 193 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: or sharing the balls of beans at my friends curt 194 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: Because the state refused to feed the people it was 195 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 2: detaining in the open air for days. These aren't conversations 196 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,719 Speaker 2: I recorded, because that wouldn't be safe. There's a very 197 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 2: real danger of these folks not getting asylum and being 198 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 2: sent back to a country where they've seen their friends murdered, 199 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 2: their election results denied, their job applications thrown away, and 200 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 2: their language suppressed. Having them on the record would be 201 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 2: a huge risk to their safety. And not every interaction 202 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 2: I have with people, even people I'm writing about, has 203 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 2: to we turned into content to go between the adverts. 204 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: So sometimes I just do things because I like to 205 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 2: do them. If you'd like to know more about these stories, 206 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 2: you could find a link to a piece I wrote 207 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: for the Kurdish piece ins due in the show notes. Anyway, 208 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 2: here's an ad break. The situation in Iraq is different. 209 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: The Kurtis do An Aotomina's region enjoys a great degree 210 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 2: of autonomy from Baghdad. They're chiefly run by two parties, 211 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 2: the KDP and the p UK. The KDP enjoys influence 212 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 2: in Abil Or how Lay and Kurdish in Slomania. The 213 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: p UK is in control in these areas, especially those 214 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: of the KDP. A more neoliberal vision of Kurdish identity 215 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 2: is pursued, and how lahis or skyscrapers lid up all 216 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 2: night huge mansions, but also the whole areas of the 217 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 2: city struggling to get by or sometimes not even having 218 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 2: active cee around water. The vision of Kurdish identity here 219 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 2: is not a threatening to Turkey, and the KDP seems 220 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 2: to take the line that the PKK or to keep 221 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 2: its struggle within the Turkish borders. The PUK has been 222 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 2: more sympathetic to the KCK. The PKK. It's often in 223 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 2: the mountains near Slomanian du Hok that Turkey targets Kurdish 224 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: guerrillas and their infrastructure. For the last forty years, Turkey 225 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: has remained extremely hostile to division of Kurdish liberation, with 226 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 2: the democratic and federal system that Ojerland and the movement 227 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 2: that follows him have adopted. I asked Zagros to explain 228 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 2: the connection between the Kurdish struggling North and East Syria, 229 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: which may listens will probably be familiar with, and the 230 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 2: element to the Kurdish freedom movement in other parts of 231 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: Kurdistan which they might not be familiar with. And I'll 232 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 2: ask interview I spoke to Zagros about history in Spain. 233 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 2: Now it's history. To give me a history lesson. By 234 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: the way, he calls the Oderland leader appo here rab 235 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 2: apple in Kurdish. It's a common contraction that's used all 236 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: over Kurdistan, and apple is also the evocative form of 237 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 2: the Comanche word for a paternal uncle. 238 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 4: A leader uncle migrated to the Middle East. He migrated 239 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 4: to Syria and Lebanon. I mean months before the military 240 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 4: coup in Turkey, in the military coup of nineteen eighty. 241 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 4: He went there on his own. There was only one 242 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 4: comrade with him. First he entered the city of Kogani 243 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 4: and from the he found his way to Lebanon, to Beirut. 244 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 4: In Lebanon, he made relations with the Palatinian groups. He 245 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 4: even took part in the resistance of the Palatinian groups 246 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 4: against the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. For nearly twenty years, 247 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 4: he waged the freedom of struggle from Lebanon and Syria. 248 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 4: In doing so, he educated, he trained, and organized the 249 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 4: Kurdish people in Rajawa, Kerkistan. 250 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 3: In this sense, his struggle is twofold. 251 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 4: First day he developed self awareness in the people of 252 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 4: Rajawa with regard to the natural and cultural identity, and 253 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 4: brought the Rajawa people together, who had been divided by 254 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 4: the many Arab builts and demographic change operations of the 255 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 4: bath regime. All these organizational activities were done despite the 256 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 4: Sydian regime, and he managed to run a delicate balance 257 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 4: to foil the repressive measures of the Syrian regime. 258 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: There I'll just interject here to explain these terms. Bathis 259 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: Syria and Hafizala said and his son bashirol A said, 260 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 2: attempted to divide and deny the existence of the Kurdish 261 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 2: people in many ways. Some of these included omitting them 262 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: from censuses, denying them citizenship, prohibiting the public use of 263 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 2: their language and demographic transfers, and installed belts of Arab 264 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 2: people in areas that were majority Kurdish. Nonetheless, a Sid 265 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: also saw benefit allowing the PKK to exist within his borders, 266 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: especially in the parts of Lebanon that Syria occupied, in 267 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 2: order to use them as a tool against other states. 268 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 4: Secondly, he got this nationally and culturally aware people of 269 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 4: Rajava to support the struggle in North Kordistan. 270 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 3: Therefore, thousands of Rojava. 271 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 4: You were first organized and educated in villages in cities, 272 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 4: and then they joined the Gerula struggle and fought in 273 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 4: North Kodestan in Baku Karalistan. There's a struggle served to 274 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 4: unite Rajawa and North Koralistan Baku Karalistan and developed shared 275 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 4: national political awareness and attitudes. Thousands of Rajawa youth boys 276 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 4: and girls film martyr in the ranks of the Gerula Struggle. 277 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 4: Leader Appo tried to reach out to all cities, to 278 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 4: all villages, to all families, and even to all individuals 279 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 4: in Rojawa Kalistan. This has created a strong national, social, cultural, 280 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,239 Speaker 4: and let's say a philosophical point between Leader Apple and 281 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 4: the Rajava people because a neglected and divided people had 282 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 4: united around him. 283 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 2: This isn't an episode about the entire history of the PKK. 284 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 2: I wouldn't be the person to write that, but I 285 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 2: will attempt to speed run it here anyway. Upper was 286 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 2: arrested in Arabia in nineteen ninety nine. Ever since then 287 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,479 Speaker 2: he's been held in prison, often without access to visitors 288 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 2: or his lawyers, and at some points on an island 289 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 2: where he was a solitary prisoner surrounded by hundreds if 290 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 2: not thousands of guards. His human rights are almost universal 291 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 2: knowledge to have been violated by this arrangement, and despite 292 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 2: a quarter century of detention and Turkish moves towards Europe, 293 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 2: there seems to be no willingness on a part of 294 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: the Turkish state to release him. In his time in jail, 295 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 2: he began to read more and correspond with many thinkers, 296 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 2: including Murray Bookchin. Buukchin influenced his sinking a great deal, 297 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 2: and gradually, through this and other influences, Osla moved away 298 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 2: from a Marxist Leninist analysis and national liberation goals and 299 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: instead began to conceive feminist and ecological revolution that decentralized power, 300 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 2: ensured all authority positions were shared by a man and 301 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: a woman, and valued the environment as much or more 302 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 2: than the economy. This libertarian left ideology came to be 303 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 2: known as democratic confederalism, and it is a guiding ethos 304 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 2: for Java and indeed the Casey Care as a whole. 305 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 2: The civil war in Syria provided an opening that the 306 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: Kurdistan Freedom movement took advantage of as ASAD forces withdrew 307 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 2: from their regions to fight elsewhere, didn't spring from the 308 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 2: ground in twenty eleven, but instead they'd spent decades building 309 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 2: a movement that they felt could replace the state. Today, 310 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 2: millions of people live, work and play under democratic confederist 311 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 2: ideology in the Autonomous Area of North and East Syria, 312 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 2: where it was last year. It's not paradise, but it's 313 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 2: a special place, and by any metric, life there is 314 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 2: better than in the rest of Syria. Right now. For 315 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: over a decade, they've navigated a complex system of adversaries, 316 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 2: including the Syrian State, the Islamic State, and the Turkish State. 317 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 2: Just this week, all three of them have tried to 318 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 2: attack Rajava. More than fifteen thousand people men and women 319 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 2: have died in the decade long war against the Islamic State, 320 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: which country to much reporting, remained ongoing. It is actually 321 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 2: car bombed a place not far from where I stayed 322 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 2: last October after i'd come home. At times, the USA 323 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: has supported the people of Javre in their battle against 324 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: Islamic State, but it's also stood by as Turkish bombs 325 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: fell on them. But though ra Java is by far 326 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 2: the biggest territorial area which to democratic confederalism is in practice, 327 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 2: much as a movement remains in the mountains of southern 328 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 2: Kurdistan in what is technically Iraqi territory. There are many 329 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 2: more Kurdish people in Turkey, and as a recent election 330 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 2: results show, revolution by the ballot box is not really 331 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 2: an option for them. Javre enjoys autonomy, but it's still 332 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 2: very much ideologically twinned with the part of the movement 333 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 2: that remains in the mountains and dedicated to its struggle 334 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 2: against the Turkish state. Turkey, in return, has crossed the 335 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 2: border with Iraq to attack the KCK and anyone else 336 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: who gets caught in the crossfire. As Nagros explained, this 337 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: is not new, but the recent change has been notable well. 338 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 4: During the eighties, nineties and even after two thousand, the 339 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 4: Turkish Army used to do military operations to the other 340 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 4: side of the border into the Iraqi border for several months, 341 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 4: to a draw back to the other side of the 342 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 4: border to its own border afterwards after several months, and 343 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 4: in that period it only had limited number of barracks 344 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 4: and bases in. 345 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 3: The Iraqi and the Iraqi territory. 346 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 4: The change now is that Teki has built a new 347 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 4: military roads from Scratch to the Credit Sand region to 348 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 4: northern Iraq. It has built more than one hundred big 349 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 4: and small military bases and barracks in the area and 350 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 4: has no intention to withdraw. As I said, the ultimate 351 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 4: goal is to is to annex all these lands to 352 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 4: the Turkish territory. 353 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 2: Today, Turkish troops can be found deep inside Iraq. According 354 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 2: to the Community Peacemaker Teams, since December of twenty seventeen, 355 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 2: Turkish forces have built over forty bases anywhere from nine 356 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 2: to twenty five kilometers into Iraqi, Kurdistan's territory south of 357 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 2: its border end quote. They have dispatched hundreds of troops 358 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: and military vehicles into another state, set up checkpoints, and 359 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 2: even killed civilians a member of the Kig's military. The 360 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 2: Peshmerga fighting has caused massive wildfires. For example, in Sagale Village, 361 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: about fifty five percent of the agricultural land has been 362 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 2: burned by Turkish attacks. Incidentally, Turkish shelling in the Autonomous 363 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: Area of North and East Syria has also caused similar 364 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 2: fires and destruction of crops in agricultural areas. The Kurdish 365 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: Freedom movement is very well established in the mountains of 366 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 2: southern Kurdistan, where they live in tunnels and caves. These 367 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: are not caves of tunnels like you played in a 368 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 2: little child. We're talking about villages underground. This makes tracking 369 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: them very hard. As we heard another episode, many of 370 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 2: the fighters said to Curtis down as Syrian Arabs repurposed 371 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 2: by Turkey and gind up an anti Kurdish sentiment. But 372 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 2: this is perhaps the least concerning of the way the 373 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 2: tunnels are being attacked. Zagros explained some of the other 374 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 2: things that they've seen. 375 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 3: Data is that they use dogs. 376 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 4: They tie explosives to the dogs and send the dogs 377 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 4: into the tunnels and they explode the dogs wire remote control. 378 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 2: In addition to the dogs, he says that the Turkey 379 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 2: state uses chemical weapons inside the tunnels. There are also 380 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 2: reports of suicide bombers definating themselves. The KTK also claims 381 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 2: the Turkey uses thermobaric bombs sometimes called bunker busters, which 382 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 2: create a huge pressure wave from subsequent vacuum. 383 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 4: Also, they are using thermobodic bombs. We have documented the 384 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 4: use of these thermobodic bombs. There are remnants of these bombs. 385 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 4: They are using theemobodic or vacuum bombs against the tunnels, 386 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 4: and they are using some form of explosives which are 387 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 4: more powerful than thermobolic bombs. Got some freedom grillas have 388 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 4: developed literature for it because they do know what kind 389 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 4: of explosively did. But it has the effect of a 390 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 4: nuclear bomb. We got some freedom grilla called nuclear bomb. 391 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 4: They call it so because the effects are high, are 392 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 4: higher than the thermobotic bombs. 393 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: I asked Mohammed to explain how people reacting to the 394 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 2: current situation. 395 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 6: You know, you know invted some parts of you could 396 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 6: understand that. 397 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 5: Actually the the areas under the control or under the 398 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 5: influence of character instead of KDP, and you know that 399 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 5: people here have dislikes. 400 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 6: This issue is like the version of Turkey to this area. 401 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 5: It's not just in boss telling people besides the pia 402 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 5: k elements and telling people and building the whole agricultural 403 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 5: area and you know, so and so on. 404 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 6: So it's kind of an inversion. 405 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 5: And but here some people on forces in in the 406 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 5: southern part of Kurdusan Orstan, you know, Iraqi Puldustan like 407 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 5: the sympathy with the Picak sympathy, Okay, as they see. 408 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 6: That they're live. 409 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 5: So they're struggling against Turkey because if there is no 410 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 5: Bika gay even there is no Biga Gay. The Turkish 411 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 5: forces woll will not withdraw from Kutsa when it controlled 412 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 5: any area of Iraqi kumsant to be saved or southern 413 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 5: it will not withdraw and it's it's excuses Pika k 414 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 5: But things on Earth is telling something else. 415 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 2: Despite what both my guests have seen as alien nation 416 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 2: of the local population, Turkey's continuing with its attacks. I 417 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 2: asked Sagres, what do you thought the goals of this 418 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 2: Turkish invasion of Iraqua. 419 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 4: The invasion and annexation of these lands is the prime 420 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 4: goal of Turkey. This goal is a long term goal 421 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 4: of the Turkish state since it has been created after 422 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 4: the Luzan Agreement. It has two aspects. Firstly, Turkey lays 423 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 4: claimed to what was once part of the Ottoman Empire 424 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 4: one hundred years ago. Lays claims to the cities like 425 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 4: Mussil and Kirkuk and claims that these these are lends 426 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 4: of Turkey. So the invasion operation in the area of 427 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 4: Batina is up in Matina and Avashin. In the areas 428 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,239 Speaker 4: around the cities of Armedia, Dere, Lucei, Laze and Hu 429 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 4: they are at ten to take control of these mountainous 430 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 4: areas and to materialize those long range goals. Turkey already 431 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,239 Speaker 4: has a has a big military base near Musil, I 432 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 4: think fifteen to twenty kilometers in northern Musil. It is 433 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 4: called the Bashika Base. So if Teki manages to invade 434 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 4: all these areas in Badina I mean in the cities 435 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 4: of the Hook mountainous areas of the Hook, Turkey would 436 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 4: be able to create a land bridge between these areas 437 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 4: and its base in Musil, and it will be far 438 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 4: easier for Turkey to let's say an ex city of 439 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 4: Muslim and Kirkuktu its lands. Secondly, Turkey has a long 440 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 4: term goal of demographic demographic change in Kurdista. As you know, 441 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 4: Yakistan is a land, the ancestral land of the Kurts, 442 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 4: being divided between four countries Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria 443 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 4: being divided by borders. People from one side of the 444 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 4: border are Kurdish, put on the other side of the 445 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 4: the Arkurdish. In many cases, the borderline go through the city. 446 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 4: They divide the cities, they have divided the villages. They 447 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 4: have divided in the tribes. They have divided large populations. 448 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 4: They have even divided families. This is one of the 449 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 4: characteristics of the border in Kurdistan. 450 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 2: In fact, Turkey has begun something of an Arab belt 451 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 2: program who is owned in Syria, seeking to resettle Syrian refugees. 452 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 2: Turkish backs Syrian anti government rebels in the areas that 453 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: it took from Java in military operations over the last 454 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: eight years. This is part of Turkey's plan to return 455 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 2: as many as a million Syrian migrants to a country 456 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 2: stood in the grips of a brutal civil war, and 457 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 2: push the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria back 458 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 2: from the Turkish borders crush it altogether. For Turkey, there's 459 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 2: no distinction between Ajava and the PKK, and thus Turkey 460 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 2: claims the entirety of a Java is a haven for terrorism. 461 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 2: Many Kurdish fighters and international volunteers who fought Isis for 462 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 2: years died fighting the Turkish army in a free and 463 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: and the many other territories the Turkey has expanded into 464 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 2: since twenty seventeen. The fighting there was fierce and saw 465 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 2: the YPG and the WIPG, the Men's and Women's armed 466 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 2: forces of Java battling a NATO army with modern armor 467 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:35,239 Speaker 2: and modern airpower. After taking significant losses. They retreated and 468 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 2: I asked Sagros what this means for people living in 469 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 2: a free who had just managed to return to some 470 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: semblance of normalcy after Assad's forces left and attacks from 471 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: me on Nusfra front became less frequent. 472 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 3: This is genocide. 473 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 4: I'm in forcing people to leave their lands and replacing 474 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 4: those people with people which are not from that land. 475 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 4: Forcing people to leave the ancestral land and then with 476 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 4: they have lived on for thousands of years, for more 477 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 4: than ten thousand years, and getting Arab jihades Chechen Jihadis 478 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 4: to live in those areas. It is a genocide along 479 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 4: with the ecocide which is now taking place. Thousands of 480 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 4: hectares of forests of agricultural land are now burning. So 481 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 4: what Turkey does is femicide, is ecoside, is genocide in Kurdistan. 482 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 3: And this let's say, what now happens to the curse. 483 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 4: It's the same thing that happened to the Armenians one 484 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 4: thousand years ago. The genocide of the Armenians was done 485 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 4: by the people who had the same mentality and the 486 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 4: same mindset of Arguona. I can say, so these areas 487 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 4: are very strategic for the curves. They bind the four 488 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 4: parts of Kurdistan together demographically, and now Arduwan wants to 489 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 4: draw a Jihads buffer result between these. 490 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 3: Areas. 491 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 4: If occurred from Syria wants to go to the Kurdistan 492 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 4: in under the invasion of Turkey, we call it North Kurdistan. 493 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 4: He will have to go through cities and areas populated 494 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 4: by Arab jihadists, by church and jihadists by Kirkman jihadists 495 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 4: by jihadis have been which have been collected from around 496 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 4: the world. So this buffer zone, which is more than 497 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 4: one thousand kilometers long according to Ardua's plan and thirty 498 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 4: to forty kilometers wide, is expected to be inhabited, to 499 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 4: be settled by the jihadis which Ardoan has gathered from 500 00:31:47,120 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 4: x DASH members, ex NSA members, x al Qaeda. 501 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 2: At present, it's Turkish occupation. It's a situation in parts 502 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: of Syria, but it's also increasingly becoming likely it will 503 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 2: be the situation in parts of Rock. That is often 504 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 2: the case, say to trying to use divisions in Kurdistan 505 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: to their advantage, and Turkey in particular is relying on 506 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 2: the well worn excuse of counter terrorism to mount its 507 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 2: incursions deep into a rock. Here's Mohammed explaining. 508 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 5: That Piker is thinking like in such a way to 509 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 5: support to support maybe pick again. They don't say orally 510 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 5: that that thing. And KDP says that follow the instruction 511 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 5: of Turkey and actually here the force and influence of 512 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 5: Turky and even I ran in the Putick controlled area 513 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 5: is UH is very strong. And people here as people 514 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 5: of the nation, I'm not feeling comfort with such impasion, 515 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 5: such issues. So we are lot like the owner of 516 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 5: our right decision in the area. So we're divided within 517 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 5: ira Iran and Turkey and so on, so and we 518 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 5: are not depending on our people. You know, thousands of 519 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 5: people killed for the nation analysis you know, hopes and now. 520 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 6: People are. 521 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 5: Frustrate with such such issues, with such situation. 522 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 2: Mahmad also said that was really frustrating for him to 523 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 2: see Curish politicians so influenced by the states that they've 524 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 2: been trying to escape for a century. 525 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 5: So we are here in a situation from the north, 526 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 5: Turkey from the east, Iran from the south, and all 527 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 5: are they working that the people who pay thousands thousands 528 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 5: of of of you know martyrs south and so of UH, 529 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 5: you know, loss of the people. 530 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 6: Why you are not depending on. 531 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 5: Your will or the force of your people, why you 532 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 5: are became like like a feather, a feather to the 533 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 5: to the windsor of. 534 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 6: So forth, which are not you're they're not your friends. 535 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 5: Even in the east, in the north and the south, 536 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 5: there are not new But if you depend on your 537 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 5: own people, on your own to struggle hard, and we 538 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 5: have you know, we have the. 539 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 6: Legacy of this issue. 540 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 5: We have the legacy of struggle in this area from 541 00:34:59,320 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 5: nineteen six. 542 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: This is indeed, the evasion of southern Kurdistan would not 543 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 2: be possible without the consent of both the Iraqi and 544 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 2: Kurdistan regional authorities, so gross mentioned. Turkish president reship type 545 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 2: Duwe visited Baghdad on April to twenty second. This was 546 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 2: his first visit to Iraq since twenty eleven. During the visit, 547 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 2: iraqan Turkey side the Joint Security Agreement allowing Turkey to 548 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 2: conduct military operations deep within Iraqi territory. In return, Iraqi 549 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 2: received desperately needed water from Turkey. 550 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 4: And now in those areas tens of thousands of Turkish troops, 551 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 4: hundreds of tanks, armored vehicles, drones. 552 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 3: Brothers have been deploved to the area. 553 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 4: They are active every day, and they are invading northern 554 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 4: Iraq at a time when the border guards of Iraqi 555 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 4: Iraqi Army border guards are standing by and just watching. 556 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 3: As you may know, as. 557 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 4: The result of the agreement between the Iraqi State and 558 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 4: Turky State, the Iraqi border guard forces, let's say they 559 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,720 Speaker 4: were decided to be sent to the Iraqi Turkish border. 560 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 4: But now these border guards are not on the Turkish 561 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,240 Speaker 4: Iraqi border, the border that we now these border guards 562 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 4: have been deployed forty kilometers thirty kilometers deep into the 563 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 4: Iraqi territory. They don't go to the border. They are 564 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 4: guarding the invading Turkish Army. 565 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 2: For the people of the region, this means yet more 566 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: trauma and more displacement. They were already more than one 567 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 2: million displaced people in southern Kurkistan. Some of them are 568 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 2: living in pretty terrible conditions. I've seen those refugee camps 569 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 2: when I was there last October. But these operations have 570 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 2: created more. Here's just one anecdote to displacement shared by 571 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 2: CPT on their website. 572 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 7: We met a man named Kakbashir who had tried to 573 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 7: build a cafe here, his dreams of a cafe had 574 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,879 Speaker 7: been shattered by Turkish artillery and smaller arms fire coming 575 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 7: from the Turkish base on the hillside nearby. He was 576 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 7: originally from Segurae village, but had been displaced to Ghani 577 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 7: Village by the Turkish military five years ago due to 578 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 7: the loss of his farm in Seguday. He has planted 579 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 7: some vegetables next to the side of his cafe. He 580 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 7: gave each CPT member some sweet basil and invited us 581 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 7: to his village. When we arrived, a man dressed in 582 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 7: immaculate traditional Kurdish clothes stood transfixed staring into the valley. 583 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 7: He was staring at Mejia Village, his home. Mijia is 584 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 7: one of at least nine villages displaced by the recent 585 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 7: Turkish operation. Kakbashir told us that displaced people from the 586 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 7: valley would visit this place daily to gaze upon their 587 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 7: cut off towns and farmland below. 588 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 2: Despite months of shalling and bombing, the military stronghold to 589 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 2: the Kadistan Freedom Movement remained intact, and the more obvious 590 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 2: damage he has been done to civilians rather than military targets. 591 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 2: The hPG, which is the fighting arm of the BKKA 592 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 2: has been able to obtain loitering antiacraft munitions shut down 593 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,479 Speaker 2: several drones, but it's still unable to shoot down fighter 594 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,240 Speaker 2: jets like the US provided F sixteens to the currently 595 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 2: bombing them for civilians without mounting caves or tunnels to 596 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 2: hide in. The impact is severe and people who have 597 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 2: faced depression and persecution from Saddam Hussein Isis numerous other 598 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 2: states and groups are now once again being displaced. I 599 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 2: want to finish up with the end of Zagoro's message 600 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 2: to me, in which he made a comparison with Palestine, 601 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 2: like I did at the start on the day of 602 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 2: thirst Intrude Zagros, bombs made in the US had just 603 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 2: been falling from Israeli planes on too civilians in Palestine again, 604 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 2: and we discussed the fact that all the solutions being 605 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 2: discussed hinged around the need for states, one state or 606 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 2: two states to solve the problem. But this was a 607 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 2: problem created by states, and it was states sending bombs 608 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 2: to another state to drop on children, both in Kurdistan 609 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 2: and in Palestine. 610 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 7: There was the problem. 611 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: His Zagos reflection on nearly ten months of bombing in 612 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 2: Palestine and Kurdistan, I just want to explain here that 613 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 2: Abubaka Baghdadi was at one point the leader of Isis 614 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 2: instead now and when he says Dash, he's referring to 615 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,839 Speaker 2: the former so called Islamic state. 616 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 4: The struggle that is now waged in the mountains of 617 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 4: Kurdistan against the invading Turkish army. It is a continuation 618 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 4: of the struggle against Dash in Iraq and Syria, because 619 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 4: ideologically there is no difference between Ardovan and Abuba Baghdadi. 620 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 4: Baghdadi first took Musul, and now Ardovan wants to invade 621 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 4: Mussul too. Ardowan attacks all those places which have been 622 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 4: hubs of resistance against Dash. He attacks Sinjar, he attacks Kobani, 623 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 4: He attacks Kandid Mountains, which are the home of those 624 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,479 Speaker 4: who inspired and all organized the fight against the AJ. 625 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:08,479 Speaker 4: On the ground, Erdogan's army is Dash in native uniforms, 626 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 4: in native fatigues. In recent days, Arduan accuses Nitenno of 627 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 4: committing genocide against the Palacinians. Nteno also accuses Erdogan of 628 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 4: committing genocide against the Curts. In fact, what these two 629 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 4: men say against each other is to some extent right, 630 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 4: both of them have been commissioned by the forces of 631 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 4: capitalist modernity to eliminate two people, to eliminate the Curves 632 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 4: and the Palacinians. What Nitano does against the Palacinians is 633 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 4: exactly what Erdogan is doing against the Kurts. What is 634 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 4: needed is to draw the attention of the world's public 635 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:58,439 Speaker 4: opinion to the atrocities of Aldogan's regime and the genocidal 636 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:04,240 Speaker 4: and ecosidal crimes commits against the Kurdish people and their land, 637 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 4: which is Kurdistan. The struggle in Palestine and Kurdistan are 638 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 4: one struggle, the struggle of two people against genocide and examination. 639 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 4: Both struggle needs support from the youth, from the women 640 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 4: all around the world, from democratic forces, from intellectuals, students, unions, workers, 641 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,800 Speaker 4: from all people. People need to be united against Ardowan, 642 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 4: as they were united against Dash, as they are now 643 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 4: united against the genocidal attacks in Palestine. The Turkish regime 644 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 4: can be protested everywhere in many ways. Turkish goods and 645 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 4: commodities can be boycotted because they are the source of 646 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 4: funds for Ardowan's war machine, for Ardowan's genocidal army. Delegations 647 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 4: can be formed and they can come to visit Kurdistan 648 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 4: and see with their own eyes the extent of ecosit 649 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,720 Speaker 4: and genocidling to understand. Free journalists can shed more light 650 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 4: on the atrocities Avardoan in Kurdistan. 651 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 3: Revolutionary youth, revolutionary. 652 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 4: People, men and women can come and join the struggle 653 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 4: in the mountains of Kurdistan, Curd. 654 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 3: Establish your home. 655 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 7: It could Happen here as a production of crul Zone Media. 656 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 7: For more podcasts in the cool Zone Media, visit our 657 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 7: website cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on 658 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,239 Speaker 7: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 659 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:40,800 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 660 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 1: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.