1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My 5 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: name is Matt. Our colleague Nol is on an error venture. 6 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: Get it, but he will be returning shortly. They called 7 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined with our super producer Paul jetlagged decond. 8 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that 9 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. 10 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's no secret Matt that you and 11 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: I both are longtime fans of conspiratorial pop culture. We 12 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: love a secret society, we love an overarching intergenerational conspiracy. 13 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: And I uh, I remember when the film adaptation of 14 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: Watchman came out, and I don't know about you, but 15 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: that totally rocked me. I loved it. Yeah, dude, seeing 16 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: that Dude's giant blue, I mean, uh yeah, that was 17 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: a great movie, was it? Giant was kind of have average, 18 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: Well think about it's really scale if you think about scale, 19 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: so like for him maybe it wasn't that big, but 20 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: like for everybody else, when he became a giant. Yeah, 21 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: we're spoiling the most important part of the entire story. Yeah, 22 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: so there's this, there's this question and one of the 23 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: non radioactive penis related story out of Watchman. There very 24 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: much a b plot of Watchman. Uh, there's this question 25 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: about who watches the Watchman, who holds those in power? 26 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: Two accounts like who the people are supposed to create 27 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: a himforce the rules? Who make sure those people also 28 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: practice what they preach. It's a great, great new version 29 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: of that in The Boys. I think that's the entire 30 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: series goes over that. Yeah, and uh, you know, some 31 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: people have their issues with the edge lordy aspects of 32 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: the of the original comic, but it is a great read. 33 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed Watchman, it does bring up some of 34 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 1: the same questions as an excellent comparison. And the reason 35 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: so much fiction talks about this is because it is 36 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: a real life question that has bugged pretty much every 37 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: single modern society at some point. Right, does it should 38 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: the king also follow the laws the king makes? Right? 39 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: Is it okay for the queen to murder some point 40 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: even though murder is illegal? And especially the people who 41 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 1: carry out the you know the law? Right ones the 42 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: ones who get to stop you and say, hey, you're 43 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: going to jail. What happens when they do something a 44 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: little off right? Right? Is it? When is it legal 45 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: for a member of law enforcement to commit homicide? Right? 46 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: Or to speed? You know? There's all these if thens. 47 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: And in an earlier episode, something surprising happened to us 48 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: on the way to recording. Some unrelated research led us 49 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: to a strange tale of conspiracy and investigation that goes 50 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: right to the door of Congress. It got real ugly 51 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 1: and it's still, i would argue. Continuing today, the aftermath 52 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: of a grand undercover operation known as ab scam, which 53 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: is not despite what the name might lead you to think. 54 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: It is not a product for abs that you would 55 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: see advertised on Instagram or something. Yeah, a scam for 56 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: your ab workouts, a scam for your abs, or a 57 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: camera just for your abs. Anyway, here are the facts. 58 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: Abscam is an extreme version of a sting operation right 59 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: at heart, Oh, that's exactly what it is. It's a 60 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: sting operation and or entrapment operation, depending on how you 61 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: feel about it, right, depending on how you feel either. 62 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,119 Speaker 1: The courts went one way, for sure, but that's wing 63 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: on whether or not you're in Congress. There you go. 64 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: That's gonna influence whether or not you think it's entrapment. 65 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: It's exactly, You're right, it's it's something that has been 66 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: going on for a long time. It's a way to 67 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: catch a criminal in the act, right, the sting. It's 68 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: a sting operation. Right, so you set up all of 69 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: the requirements for a crime to go down, usually a 70 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: transactional crime of some sort where money can be exchanged 71 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: or a good can be exchanged for something illegal. Right. 72 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: And it's weird because on one side of that transaction 73 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: there are the police or the FBI or some other 74 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: law enforcement official, and then there's someone who is being 75 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: stung on the other side. M Yeah. The term sting 76 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: became famous in American culture in nineteen seventy three because 77 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: of a movie called The Sting with Robert Redford and 78 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: Paul Newman. I think, but the film itself is about 79 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: a grift, it's not about a police operation. Still, people 80 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: like the phrase sting operation, and it works. We see 81 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: it all the time in fiction. Countless Law and Order 82 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: episodes have someone going undercover, you know, usually when one 83 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: of the actors gets a writing or producer credit and 84 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: wants to show more of their range, so they write 85 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: themselves into the episode a bit more. But even though 86 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: you can't trust depictions in fiction, we can say that 87 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: a lot of these programs get the rough aspects of 88 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: a sting operation, right. They have you know, generally they 89 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: have four major components. Yeah, that's going to be a 90 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: targeted group or maybe even one individual human being. That 91 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: are the people that are going to be, as I said, 92 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: on the wrong side of whatever transaction is occurring. They 93 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: require an opportunity for a crime to be committed, or 94 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: at least some kind of exploitation by the police on 95 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: an ongoing criminal action. Right, So something criminal is going down, 96 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: the police using usually which is the third thing, an 97 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: undercover agent of some sort getting into that operation exploits 98 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: the whole thing, and it's really important that you get 99 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: evidence of whatever goes down, So hidden microphones, you know, 100 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: wearing a wire is really important, or setting up a 101 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: camera to capture the events, something like that. I would 102 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: say that's a component of this. A second component is 103 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: the demographic of victim or target. You want someone who 104 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: is likely going to commit some sort of crime you're not. 105 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: For instance, if there's an undercover thing busting busting people 106 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: buying drugs, or busting people in the sex trade, then 107 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: you would not be you would not send an undercover 108 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: officer into like your local grocery store in the serial 109 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: aisle going who wants Fenton All or heroin or whatever? 110 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: Or you know, who wants to do who wants to 111 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: do some elicit X, you know over go into a 112 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: library and just ask everybody if they want a party? Yeah. Yeah, 113 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: And still it took me years to understand what that 114 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: meant when people said do your party. So then the 115 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: third thing you want is, like you said, the undercover 116 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: or a surrogate. Some there's some form of deception inherent 117 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: to sting operations which makes them inherently conspiratorial. And typically, 118 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: oh often somebody gets turned who's already in an ongoing 119 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: criminal operation, and then that person becomes the surrogate. As 120 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: you're talking about, Yeah, you kind of string them along 121 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: by hook or by crook, and that goes into the 122 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: kind of carrot and stick stuff we talk about with 123 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: spies getting turned. Right, you could have somebody working in 124 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: exchange for a reduced or sentence or dismiss charges. You 125 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: could also have some kind of blackmail or leverage on them, right, 126 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: or you could just be straight up paying them, or 127 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: all of the above. They'll find a way to get 128 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: you a thin eya. And the fourth aspect is the 129 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: most cinematic, right, the spectacle of it. It climaxes when 130 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: it ends in arrest aber cadabra, b abercadabra, right, and 131 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden people are getting locked up 132 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: because it turns out that snake bite in the world 133 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: where officers Grady and O'Malley the whole time man the word. 134 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:10,479 Speaker 1: In this case, the chic didn't even speak the language. 135 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: No, No No, it's very much like Brad Pitt and inglorious bastards. 136 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,599 Speaker 1: But examples of this are common. They go across a 137 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: range of crimes, and they're also not perfect. To their credit, 138 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: the US Department of Justice is pretty upfront about this. 139 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: They say, look, these operations can be expensive, they can 140 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: be really demanding and physically dangerous for personnel, and they 141 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: don't they they're good at fixing case by case stuff, 142 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 1: but they're not going to fix systemic incidents of crime. 143 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: You know, if you do a sting operation on a 144 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: known drug corner, then what's going to happen. Is that 145 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: because that location is known to customers, other people are 146 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,479 Speaker 1: going to come in and fill the role. Yep. Yeah, 147 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: Or everybody's going to move to a different corner, you know, 148 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: and just avoid that area completely, and then you got 149 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: to set up shop over there. Another aspect of sting 150 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: operations is that they can last for a long time, 151 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: some for months, some for years and years. M yeah. 152 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: And then there's the problem of ethics. The line between 153 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: a legit sting operation and entrapment, which is forcing somewhat 154 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: to commit a crime and then punishing them for doing so. 155 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: That line gets pretty blurry. Still. All told, sting operations 156 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: have clear benefits. They can deliver massive results, way way 157 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: beyond just busting people for selling dimebags or loose cigarettes. 158 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: Shout out to HSBC, right, yes, shout out Shout out 159 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: to HSBC, which was once called a conspiracy theory. And so, 160 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, man, let's talk about some of the 161 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: big examples of US stings. We get. We just need 162 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: to pull a couple here. They can go international. The 163 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: FBI in twenty twelve had Operation card Shop, which was 164 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: a multimillion dollar online financial fraud case. They arrested twenty 165 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: four different people across fourteen countries across four continents. They 166 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: called it the largest coordinated international police action in history, 167 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: at least targeting cybercrime. And when you hear about the 168 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: way these things work, it sounds it sounds like the 169 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: people who got pinched, we're kind of doofy about it, right, 170 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: Like it sounds it sounds as though they didn't think 171 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: through things, or they were way too trusting. But we 172 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: have to remember there's a lot of social engineering, right, 173 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: There's a there's a lot of just like scientology, there's 174 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 1: a lot of nuance and a lot of style that 175 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: goes into getting people to accept these false versions of reality. 176 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: Like the cyber Steam thing. You would go to this 177 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: website and you could buy or sell stolen credit card info, 178 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: driver's license numbers, bank information, all the stuff you would 179 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: need to create a fake identity essentially except for like 180 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: printing the thing out right. And then you would also 181 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: have a forum, a little camp fire where you could 182 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: discuss general hacking techniques. It is crazy that they would 183 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: think you could just go to a website and carry 184 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 1: out this kind of illegal activity. I wonder what kind 185 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: of log in there was for this website, just a 186 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: regular role user name of password. That's it. Oh, now 187 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: I'm buying credit card numbers and stealing identities and using 188 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: you know, potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars by charging 189 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: all these credit cards. That's weird. Well, a big thing 190 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: about this we have to realize too, is that this 191 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: website became vetted by first a few members, and then 192 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: through word of mouth, they vouched for it to people 193 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: that they knew. That's how That's what I mean with 194 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: the social engineering. It operates on trust factors. Right, So 195 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: I know, you know, me and Hacks or sixty nine 196 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: Leake have been friends since back in the bulletin board days, 197 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: and so so I know this. I might not know 198 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: their real name, but I trust them when it comes 199 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: to recommending a good place to steal credit cardsbok Reboard 200 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: really gives the sight a ten out of ten for 201 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: credit card hacks or Yeah, that's weird. And they're a 202 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: tough you know, they're a tough cookie. They don't just 203 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: hand out those tens the way they would hand out 204 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: credit cards. So another operation, This one's even weirder. In 205 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, NASA the US postal Service and Customs 206 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: got together and they did a sting operation. This isn't 207 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: always just like the FBI or your local police department. 208 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: They wanted to get a stolen moon rock back and 209 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: if it had stolen and hidden it in a vault 210 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:15,359 Speaker 1: in Miami, so an operation Lunar Eclipse. They successfully nabbed 211 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: the bad guys and brought the moon rock back. Wow, 212 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: that's kind of a cool story. Yeah, it's a cool story. 213 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: I want to know more about it. That sounds awesome. 214 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: We should look into that further. Ben, I like that 215 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: a lot. Well, there's so many examples of this kind 216 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: of thing, and especially this kind of thing that that 217 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: skirt right up against that entrapment possibility or the entrapment angle, 218 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: because I remember when we would talk about the FBI 219 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: going after people in Muslim communities right where they would 220 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: try and set up a sting operation by providing weapons 221 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: or explosives to people that the FBI was basically grooming 222 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: to take out terrorist action. It's a bit strange. Is 223 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: the FBI manufacturing terrorists? I think is the name of 224 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: our episode on that end. One thing that still sticks 225 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: out to me about that is this is a high 226 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: mark of character for the folks in those communities, right, 227 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: the folks running the mosque would hear about this stuff, 228 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: and they called the FBI and like, there are some 229 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: crazy people. They're trying to get our community members to 230 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: become terrorists. You have to do something. And then the 231 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: FBI would find out that it was itself. Yeah, yeah, 232 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: that it was the terrorist groomer. So yeah, there's a 233 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: lot of controversy, and it's very much not a perfect system. 234 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: What happens when law enforcement forces the commission of a crime. 235 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: How do we square ethically with the fact to that 236 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: police and authorities often engage in crime during one of 237 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: these operations, they're buying drugs. They may end up doing 238 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: drugs in front of the people they're trying to nab, 239 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: just to show they like to party, right, Yeah, Well, 240 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: and deep undercover is a terrifying thing. It's a terrifying 241 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: place to be as an individual, right, And when you 242 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: have to fit in with people who may not feel 243 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: weird about committing murder, you never know what you have 244 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: to get into in order to retain your cover. So 245 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: it's a scary situation. Yeah, even even when it's just 246 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: kind of cynically milked for entertainment. You can see the 247 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: tremendous potential for psychological damage and for physical danger that 248 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: is posed to these operatives. I'm thinking you're having to 249 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: commit a real serious crime because you have to or 250 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: else you're going to die, right, or having to explain 251 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: in a believable way why you're not the right fit 252 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: for that. Like one recent example, I saw a spin 253 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: off of Law and Order called Law and Order Organized Crime, 254 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: and a character from another show is a deep cover 255 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: operative for a big arc in the In the story, 256 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: and this isn't spoiling stuff, you learn it very quickly. 257 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: In the show, he takes on the persona of an 258 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: arsonist named Eddie Ashes. That's a street name, and so 259 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if it's like wit sec one. I guess 260 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: the I guess if you're generating that kind of cover, 261 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: you do need to choose your own name. But how 262 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: ridiculous can you get with street names? Before someone says, 263 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if you're really a murderer. I don't 264 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: know if Noodles is really a hit man. M yeah, 265 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: Ashes was probably a prolific arsonist. I want to say, yeah, right, 266 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: exactly nailed it. So this this is an issue too. 267 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: The entrapment thing comes up a lot, and it's been 268 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: used as an attempt at defense in US courts, But 269 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: I don't think many folks understand that entrapment laws, as 270 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: applied to the public and as written on paper, they 271 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: don't really apply the same way to undercover operatives. Entrapment 272 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: is a defense only when suspects are being pressured into 273 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: being committing or being implicated with a crime they would 274 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: not have ordinarily have committed, and the legal definition of 275 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: pressure varies depending on the judge, depending on the jurisdiction, etc. Etc. 276 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: It's like you're trying to prove intent right, and you're 277 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: you're trying to prove you're almost trying to like multiverse 278 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: it or quantum leap it and say well, it's not entrapment, 279 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: because you know, freaking look at this guy. This guy 280 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: was definitely he was going to do something, your honor, 281 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: it was, he was going to do something. But as 282 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: a law enforcement agent, if your team is the one 283 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,239 Speaker 1: that initially says, well, hey, what if we took some 284 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: of your campaign funds and spread them out over here, 285 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: then that would probably be entrapman or viewed as entrapmant 286 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: depending on which state you're in, obviously, but if it's like, 287 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: you know, we've got all this money, what are we 288 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: going to do with it? And then the target says, well, 289 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, I could invest it over here and then 290 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: get you a return or hide it in this shell corporation. 291 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: That's when it's not entrapman. There is a kind of 292 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: a long line to be a US citizen. If you've 293 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: heard of private immigration bills, right, So that's this is 294 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: This leads us to the heart of another controversy, one 295 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: that does not get talked about often enough. What happens 296 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: when the United States tries to sting not just on 297 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: members of the public, not just on street level criminals, 298 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: but on the most powerful people in the country. This 299 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: is the story of abscam. So we're going to pause 300 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: for word from our sponsors, make sure Congress doesn't catch on. 301 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: We're done recording, and we'll be back. Here's where it 302 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 1: gets crazy. You can go to the FBI directly to 303 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: learn about abscam. Yeah yeah, but they the stuff that's 304 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: written on the official FBI website at a little back day, 305 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: and some of the stuff differs, and I wanted to 306 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: ask you about some of it been because let's let's say, 307 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: let's at least start with the FBI and see where 308 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: we go from there. Yeah, they've got a quote where 309 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: you can see this on their website. They say it 310 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: all started in July of nineteen seventy eight. Maybe we 311 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: get a little nostalgia music there, Paul perfect. When we 312 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,479 Speaker 1: set out to catch New York City underworld figures dealing 313 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: and stolen our, we set up a bogus company in 314 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: Long Island, Abdul Enterprises, thus the name ab Scam. Abdul 315 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: Scam said to be owned by a wealthy Arab sheik 316 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: who wished to invest oil money in valuable artworks. Then 317 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 1: we recruited an informer who connected us with crooks willing 318 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: to sell us Dulan treasures. Huh So right off the 319 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: bat there, I mean that is that is essentially what 320 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: abscam was, how it started, right. I have seen in 321 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: multiple places that ab Dul scam is not what it 322 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: originally stand stood for. That's okay, all right, So my 323 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: understanding is that it was originally and forgive me here, 324 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: but this was just the way it was put out there. 325 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: It was called abscam because it stood for arab scam. Yes, 326 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: it was originally called Arab scam. And we'll get to 327 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: the name change too, okay, where they sort of change 328 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: their story about it, and the FBI is not near 329 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: as quick to report that name change. You know what 330 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: I mean the past? What is the old saying inside? 331 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: I think it's thedd We don't lie. The truth changes, 332 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: which is a chilling thing to hear, right, But it's 333 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: that kind of double think is more common maybe than 334 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: people believe. Let's learn about the informant in question. They 335 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: just call him an informant. They don't give this guy 336 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: his due. Melvin Weinberg is just larger than life man. 337 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: He was a well established con artist who got caught. 338 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: It was jammed up. He later said he kind of reformed. 339 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: He was hired with the FBI by the FBI on 340 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: the understanding that if he played ball and did well, 341 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: he could get a probation deal and avoid some time 342 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: in prison, and then also he would be able to 343 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: get charges dropped against his estranged wife who left him 344 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: for Wayne Newton. It's a long story. Yeah, it feels 345 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: like a likewood story, right, it feels like a script. 346 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: Oh wait, that's because it was American Hustle. Yeah, there 347 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: you go. You can check out American Hustle with all 348 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: the names changed and all the you know, the story 349 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: is a little different, but you can learn about a 350 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: little about the character in Melvin Weinberg. You can also, 351 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: by the way, watch a sixty minutes interview with Mills, 352 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: which is dude, the guy is great on camera. He's 353 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: about that life. He is very blunt, he's very transparent. Uh. Yeah. 354 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: He has always maintained that he felt no strong ideological motivation. 355 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: He was in it for the money, dude, and to 356 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: keep to keep his um, a strange romantic partner out 357 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: of the pen. The operation begins low priority, kind of 358 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: white collars sting. They have a budget that's thirty two 359 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: thousand dollars the seventies, and that's enough to prime the 360 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: pump for a few months. And if we're being candid, 361 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: that means it's the kind of thing where they catch 362 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: who they can catch with the money, and if they 363 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: catch some people, it'll be considered a success. Yeah. And 364 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: remember at this point, with that thirty two thousand dollars, 365 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: this is strictly focused on stolen art, which even the 366 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: FBI at that time knew was a great way to 367 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: launder money. So cutting past the racially charged aspects of abscam, 368 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: which didn't age well, the FBI quickly realized they were 369 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: onto something bigger than they thought. Within just a few months, 370 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: they had recovered two paintings that together were worth one 371 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: million dollars, and Weinberg got a little bit of a 372 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: vigorous two. He dipped his beak because the company that 373 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: ensured those paintings paid him ten grand. And this is 374 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: where he and he talks about this in these interviews. 375 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: I think of the sixty minutes one he says, I 376 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: realized I can make a living, you know, doing griffs 377 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 1: for the government. Basically, I'm working for the FBI. Like, shoot, 378 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: this is the best job I've had ever. I mean 379 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: it made sense. Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not 380 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: going to jail because the people who run the jails 381 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: are also my bosses, you know. Yeah. But here's the deal. 382 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 1: Weinberg is really good at this. I mean he's just 383 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: a con man, I guess, a scammer in him himself. 384 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: So he actually convinces the FBI to give him more 385 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: money to do more stuff. He's like, I got other ideas, boys, 386 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: let's try this out. Yeah, and he convinced them. They 387 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: they wanted to hear more about his ideas. Yeah, and 388 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: he convinced them. Well, he instructed them, like, all right, 389 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: you like some of these ideas, put a million dollars 390 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: into this bank account. I'm gonna turn that million dollars 391 00:25:55,160 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: into convictions. Boys. Basically what he said. And he did 392 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: raise a valid point because he said, look, people are 393 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: coming to me and I'm representing this Abdul Enterprises. They're 394 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: going to ask, well, where do you bank? Right, where's 395 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 1: your paper trail? Because you're supposed to be a legit business, 396 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: so I'll need to be able to tell them Abdul 397 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: Enterprises has a huge treasure trove of cash in Chase 398 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: Manhattan Bank. Here's the account, Here's what the account looks like, 399 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: you know, and that's the credibility we need. He was 400 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: absolutely correct in this regard, and this paved the way 401 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: because as they were expanding, what they quickly realized concurrently 402 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: is that the operation led them to an entire criminal network. 403 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: Nepotism is big in crime. Just like any other industry, 404 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: connections and networking are often more important than one's actual talents, 405 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: and so these other members of the criminal the various 406 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: criminal enterprises or ven diagrams would introduce other people into 407 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: the mix, like, you know, you have to go talk 408 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: to my guy over here. He's the expert on this 409 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: particular type of crime, and you know, you know who 410 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: you're really looking for is this other guy in Pennsylvania 411 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: or in New Jersey? Well exactly. And they moved on 412 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: from just dealing in stolen art to go into like 413 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: fake bonds, right or or stock fraud and all these 414 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: other things like that. Where you're you can see them 415 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: starting to move up in the criminal underworld, right, which 416 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: is weird to think about up or would you move 417 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: down in the criminal underworld? Well, I guess it's kind 418 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: of like how there's not really a top or bottom 419 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: to planet Earth if you look at it from space. Okay, Okay, 420 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: they're going both into the heights and into the depths, 421 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: but they're up the ranks, all right, whatever. I think. 422 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: The further up the ranks you go, the deeper into depravity, 423 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: you go, oh man, uh, English English is uh, you know, 424 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,479 Speaker 1: doing its best, so so yeah, this is nuts. They 425 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: one of their next big steps they run into a 426 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,479 Speaker 1: group of people doing like you said, white collar crime, 427 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: fake bonds and stocks, and Weinberg is all about expanding 428 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: the program. The undercover work, just with the fake bonds 429 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: and stocks leads to six hundred million dollars worth of 430 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: fraudulent securities being captured or prevented, mitigated, whatever words you 431 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: want to use. And if you look at their seed 432 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: money of one million, thirty two thousand dollars, this is 433 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: a pretty great return. Yeah, it's pretty great. And so 434 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: they expand and at the same time, Abdual Enterprises is 435 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: making a name for itself in your local criminal community 436 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: of the Northeast. They're branching out on investigations into d C, 437 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: into Jersey. Like we mentioned, maybe it's time we talk 438 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: a little bit about the actual operation. What do you think? 439 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: How does Weinberg? How does he do the approach? Well, 440 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: let's say he put on several costumes, right, he tried 441 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: a couple things out, didn't really like him so much. 442 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: They didn't work as effectively as he wanted them to, 443 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: until he landed on Camber Abdul Rahman. This guy is 444 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: supposedly a sheik from the Arab Emirates. And this guy, 445 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: oh boy, he's a he's a millionaire. Businessman. He's got 446 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: all this money and he wants to launder it through 447 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: whatever it is that you're doing. He just needs to 448 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: get money moving through the US, right. He needs that 449 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: money clean, He needs to invest it in a stable economy. Yeah. 450 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: Do do check out our our episode on real estate 451 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,959 Speaker 1: and foreign investments. Well, and the idea that just to 452 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: keep this in mind, we're talking about late seventies, So 453 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: picking someone from the Arab Emirates who happened to be 454 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: royalty or at least close to royalty, it was a 455 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: perfect idea. It really was a perfect idea because money 456 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: was just being printed and in that region of the 457 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: world at that time because of oil prices and what 458 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: was happening with oil. Yeah. Yeah, And important to note 459 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: that Weinberg did not say he was the chik. He 460 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: was the representative. The agis an agent of the right 461 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: hand man of the chik, which also further lends to credibility, 462 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: although that might seem counterintuitive. If the chik is really powerful, 463 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: you're not going to meet that guy at the beginning. 464 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: You're going to have to earn that meeting. So one 465 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: of the scenarios was that the Sheik wanted to loan 466 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: out his money and generate interest, very common in the 467 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: Western world. But according to this grip, this chik was 468 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: very concerned about Islamic laws against usury, which is charging 469 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: egregious interest rates, so he needed bogus or forged certificates 470 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: of deposit to withdraw cash from Muslim banks to invest 471 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: somewhere else. And then other people, it's really based on 472 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: what Weinberg would think would work for that person, for 473 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: their perspective and personality. So other folks would be told, hey, 474 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: this chik wants to just have a secure place to 475 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: invest his millions and millions of dollars, or he wants 476 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: to buy art, or you know, this guy's really fancying, 477 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: really wealthy, but he's a dirty old dog and he 478 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: wants to finance porn. Yeah, well wort for someone. Yeah yeah, 479 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: I mean this is you know, we can make porn 480 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: it over here. It's just can't really do it where 481 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:53,959 Speaker 1: he is, so we need you to do it. And 482 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: he's got all the money for it. Well here, just 483 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: take it. Yeah, it's a lot of money, you can 484 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: have it. Yeah. Yeah. And eventually, as they're expanding, they 485 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: add a second fictional chic, Yaser Habib, also again totally 486 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: made up. This might sound nuts today, but we have 487 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: to remember people across the planet, we're all very well 488 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: aware of oil money, the OI. The OPAC embargoes of 489 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three and then nineteen seventy nine caused the 490 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,959 Speaker 1: price of gas to explode, and so it was common 491 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: knowledge that a lot of people who were already kind 492 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: of higher ups in different oil producing countries in the 493 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: Middle East had suddenly become even more wealthy, cartoonishly, so 494 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: they were flush with cash. It was a real thing. 495 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: And while this scam might sound weird today, we have 496 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: to realize there were a lot of other real world 497 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: examples of tremendous amounts of money coming out of this 498 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,479 Speaker 1: part of the world, right, entire structures being purchased in London, 499 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: which was still a very expensive place, New York, etc. 500 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: And the Sheik himself, here's the problem. So we've made 501 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: up this figure. Just like you know, if you're starting 502 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: a good cult, at some point these folks are gonna 503 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: want to meet them. Criminals are big on the face 504 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: to face aspects, right if they're if if they're dealing 505 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: with other criminals, they respect. So they've got to find 506 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: someone who can pass off as a chic, preferably at 507 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: FBI undercover operative. Problem is not a lot of people 508 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: at the FBI speak Arabic, certainly not fluently enough to 509 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: sound like a guy who grew up in the Arab 510 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: Emirates or look like someone who grew up there, right. 511 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: I mean the FEI scrambled basically, and you can see 512 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: this part in American Hustle where they just kind of 513 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: get someone that kind of in a way could look 514 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: the part and just pretend like they're really quiet. They 515 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: just don't talk much. The cheek doesn't talk very much. 516 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: Because the I think the FBI had two or three, 517 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: I think three people play at least the primary chic 518 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: for Ahile. Yes, yeah, three different people, and that worked 519 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: because the folks that the quote unquote chic was meeting 520 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: were not talking with each other and they were calling 521 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: this Arab scam ab scam for quite some time. You 522 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: asked earlier why the name change occurred, It's because the 523 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 1: American Arab Relations Committee forced the FBI to stop being 524 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: as racist. They said, don't why are you guys calling 525 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: it an Arab scam. That's kind of messed up. There 526 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: are a lot of Arab Americans here who are just 527 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: living their lives, and we don't want to be associated 528 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: as a demographic with this weird, weird thing. So the 529 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 1: compromise they landed on is the FBI would pretend they 530 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: always called it abdul scam based on abdual enterprises. There 531 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: you go, band aid working. I oh no, I think 532 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 1: it's pretty nice to call it a band aid because 533 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: band aids uh whatever, Yeah, it's just whatever. Yeah, it 534 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: does stink. And then while all this is playing out, 535 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: the FBI finds themselves meaning criminals who introduced them to 536 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: more criminals, and then to even more criminals, and then 537 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: to politicians. M that's the cream of a crop, right there. Yeah, politicians, 538 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: you heard that right. The folks who are supposed to 539 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: be watching the Watchman, turns out they also are more 540 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: open to a good old fashioned griffin. Then, uh, you 541 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: might have we might have assumed larceny. Yeah, my blood, 542 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: it's in my blood. Yes, how do you think I 543 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: got this job? Like my father before me and his 544 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: father before him. It's all about a griffin, all right. 545 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: So how did these politicians get caught up in abscam? 546 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: We'll tell you right after a word from our sponsors 547 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: and we're back. All right, Ben, what's going on elected officials? 548 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh boy? Okay. So to get to the officials, 549 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: we gotta meet another guy named William Rosenberg. William Rosenberg 550 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: kind of a white collar crime dude. You know, he's 551 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: a white collar crime enthusiast, let's call him. Weinberg knows 552 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: about this guy and targets him, and he says, hey, Willie, 553 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: you will get seven million dollars worth of commissions if 554 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: you can help my principle, the Sheik make a one 555 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: hundred million dollar investment because he wants to turn Atlantic 556 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: City into the Vegas of the East. Who really, East 557 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: of the East? Seven million dollars I'm in, said William Rosenberg. 558 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,439 Speaker 1: But just like Eddie Internet scam scam today, there's someone 559 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: who wants to give you all this money. Oh yeah, 560 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,399 Speaker 1: but there's a hold up. Oh no, no, that's poor 561 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: she He needs a guarantee that the hotel casino he's 562 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: trying to build is definitely going to get a gambling license, 563 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: because casino without a gambling license, you know, it's like 564 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: a hotel, it's just a hotel. At that point, and 565 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: so Rosenberg say, which will about the man is a 566 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 1: very solution oriented guy, and so he says, look, this 567 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: is no problem, and I have an awesome grifter voice 568 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: for this book. We're not going to do it. He says, 569 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: I know a local politician who's definitely on the team. 570 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: This guy's also solution oriented and he can help smooth 571 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: things over. He's actually the mayor of Camden, my good 572 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 1: friend Angelo Richetti. Oh Richetti, you're the FBI, right, yeah, 573 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: And you're trying to, you know, trying to bust somebody 574 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: for shady financial dealings because again, you think they're a 575 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: likely offender. You know that, you know, you strongly suspect 576 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: they've done stuff like this in the past. You just 577 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: can't prove it. And now all of a sudden you 578 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: get Shamaland and they're like, yeah, I've got another guy 579 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: to add to this heist. The mayor. The mayor, the 580 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: guy that runs Atlantic City. Cool cool, cool, cool cool cool. 581 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: All right, yeah, set that up. Let's do that. And 582 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,240 Speaker 1: you can read about all of this in a book 583 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: called The Stingman that was written by Robert W. Green. Yeah, 584 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,879 Speaker 1: this whole story, like this book is nuts. It is 585 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: really worth your time if you if you If you 586 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: like reading books, check it out and Eric Shetty It 587 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,439 Speaker 1: gets a very gets some weird TLC. In Green's book, 588 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 1: which is probably one of the best books there is 589 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: out about this case, he is said to have been 590 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: really foul mouth curse like a sailor who was a 591 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: meglomniacal person, extremely taken with himself, and he was a 592 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: crook through and through our pal. Weinberg actually came to 593 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: really enjoy Arrachetti because they knew where each other stood. Essentially, 594 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,399 Speaker 1: he's like, look, we're both after the bag, right. He's like, yeah, 595 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 1: we're after the bag. And he's like, I like this guy. 596 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: I think he's I think Aaron Jetty is the one 597 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: who was quoted in that book as saying larceny is 598 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: in my blood or something like that. Yes, yeah, you're right, 599 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: you're right. He also said, look, I'll be your rabbi. 600 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: I'll give you Atlantic City without me, you do nothing, well, 601 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: all right then, right, So he was like one of 602 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: those people He's like, I could be your best friend, 603 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: or you're worsted than me, and you're thinking, dang man, 604 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: I'm just we're both in line at this Chipotle calmed down. 605 00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: But so his price is four hundred thousand dollars. Richetti 606 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 1: wants four hundred grand off the top to get things going. 607 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: And it turns out Richetti was very much open for 608 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: business of all types and didn't have one specific kind 609 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: of graft or crime that he focused on. He let's 610 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: see what. He kept going to agents and saying, well, hey, 611 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: what about this thing? Just like Weinberg, he was a 612 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: man of ideas. Well, yeah, basically, okay, so you got 613 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: a casino, right, you're gonna run a casino. That's great. 614 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: But what about money laundering? Have you thought about doing that? 615 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: What about counterfeiting? You're gonna counterfeit some money? Because we 616 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: could do that. I mean, that's pretty easy with a casino. 617 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 1: What about the ports? And then say which which ports? Is? 618 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: Like the whole port of Camden? You could you guys 619 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,319 Speaker 1: ever want to run drugs through there? I mean that 620 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: is what pretty smart? Right? You want to get in 621 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: on the ground floor. He's just like, okay, mister mayor, 622 00:40:54,920 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: sure exactly. Don't you have to take here the roads 623 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: or your constituents or something. So Richetti becomes the transformative 624 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: entry point for the real, the real meat of appscam, 625 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: And why so many people in power are afraid of it. Today, 626 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: all of a sudden they realize this could be a 627 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: political sting, and he connects through through Richetti, Weinberg and 628 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: the FBI start getting connected to a whole slew of 629 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 1: US politicians elected representatives who are down to clown Yeah, 630 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: oh my good golly well, and I guess part of 631 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,479 Speaker 1: this connection is why and leveling up maybe I would 632 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: say within the underworld and even the political world. It's 633 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: causing the story to have to change the motivation, the 634 00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: fictional motivations of Abdual enterprises. Right, it's starting to alter itself, 635 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 1: and it's kind of been continually changing. So at this point, 636 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 1: the fictional sheik has you know, it's they're moving in. 637 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: They're getting their gambling license, they're getting their casino. Well, 638 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 1: now now that the chik wants to become an American citizen, 639 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: are there any strings that can be pulled in the 640 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: upper echelons of government that could allow for this? Yeah, 641 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: any politicians who could give us a hand in exchange 642 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,479 Speaker 1: for a consulting fee, which is what they're called, right, 643 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: because they don't you know what, ever, want to hear 644 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: the word bribe, And people are very careful in those 645 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: conversations to never use specific language. So we'd love you 646 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,919 Speaker 1: to consult with our good friend, the Sheik. Dude, they're 647 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: gunning for Congress. At this point, they're they're saying, how like, 648 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 1: that's the way these operations work. You described it beautifully. 649 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: They transform the desired or like the purported desire, so 650 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: that it is appropriate to the position of the target, 651 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: the position in aies. If you go to say a congressman, 652 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: and you and you say something like, hey, I need 653 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: I need help getting some art, then they're going to 654 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,880 Speaker 1: rightly ask where are you going to me? You know, 655 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,439 Speaker 1: go I have a friend at the museum. Go ask 656 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,240 Speaker 1: the people at the museum. Yeah. Good, out of here. Yeah. 657 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 1: I don't do anything with casinos. Sorry, it's not my deal, 658 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: not in Camden. Sorry about that. So, so each congressperson 659 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: got approached was told the Sheik's outfit would pay them 660 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 1: large sums of money as a consulting fee for what 661 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: they called private immigration bills to let not just the 662 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: Sheik but associates foreign based associates of Abdul enterprises into 663 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,280 Speaker 1: the United States. They would also pay to get building 664 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 1: permits and licenses of various sorts for operations in Atlantic City. 665 00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 1: Some of those licenses were for real places that Dual 666 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 1: Enterprises wasn't actually associated with, and some of them, at 667 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 1: least one of them was famously a place that was 668 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: entirely made up, the Penthouse Boardwalk Hotel in Casito, that 669 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: terrible name, the Dream of the Sheet. Yeah, it does 670 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: sound kind of like Mad Live their chat gptd H Yeah, 671 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 1: oh for sure. But something interesting here is that the 672 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:29,399 Speaker 1: price of bribing a congress person went down a little 673 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,840 Speaker 1: bit at some point, which is weird to me. I 674 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,319 Speaker 1: thought there would have to increase the price right to 675 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 1: get people to continue playing with them, or to get 676 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 1: higher level people playing with them. But they were originally 677 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 1: paying one hundred thousand dollars to have one of those 678 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: consultations right for some of these private bills, but then 679 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 1: they ended up reducing it down to fifty thousand dollars, 680 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: which is a bit weird. And you can even right now, 681 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: you can go on YouTube and find video of one 682 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 1: of those fifty thousand dollars changes, which is is it 683 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 1: is very strange to watch. Yeah, it looks staged, like 684 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 1: how could you even if you have no background in 685 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: surreptitious things. Wouldn't you think it's weird that these people 686 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 1: you don't know really well are giving you a suitcase 687 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 1: of money. Yeah, how are not triple wire ben In 688 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 1: the one I saw, there's there's an agent sitting at 689 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,080 Speaker 1: a desk with a hidden camera, and he's like, Hey, 690 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: I'm the agent. Is this date nineteen eighty and this 691 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,839 Speaker 1: is what's happening? And I've got He's like, I've got 692 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars in these five stacks of bills. I'm 693 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: gonna put them in this desk. When they come in, 694 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,319 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about exchanging the money. Here we go, 695 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,239 Speaker 1: and then they have the whole thing, and then he 696 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: literally just pulls out fifty thousand dollars in like you know, 697 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,360 Speaker 1: it's fifty thousand dollars, y'all in one hundreds is not 698 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,360 Speaker 1: that big a stack of money, which is mind blowing 699 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: humbling to see it. It really is, especially if you're 700 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 1: you're the kind of folks and entities like us, you 701 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: don't regularly handle fifty thousand dollars in cash. That's why 702 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,120 Speaker 1: you get it in twenties, because that'll really make you 703 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 1: feel good about yours out of a little yeah, so 704 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 1: we've got to say, yeah, this does look cartoonish and 705 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: the implications are damning. I have two theories about one 706 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: hundred thousand and fifty thousand dollars things. The first is that, well, 707 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: the FBI has a budget and maybe, as their critics say, 708 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: and acts to grind, so maybe this is some styling 709 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 1: on it. Maybe this is like, well, how cheap is 710 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: your integrity, you know, mister congress person or whatever. And 711 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: the second idea, which I don't know, this all speculation 712 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: on my part, but the second theory I have is 713 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: that what if a hundred grand to Pop was such 714 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 1: a good deal that it stood out too much? What if, 715 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 1: you know, other members of Congress started talking each other 716 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:17,720 Speaker 1: and someone said, I don't know, Melaney style, there's someone 717 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:23,200 Speaker 1: new in town, and they keep giving out one hundred 718 00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 1: grand to pop. This is not the usual kind of 719 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 1: consulting fee I would take. So maybe they're trying to 720 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 1: blend in just a little bit longer to keep the 721 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: camouflage up. I don't know what do you think about 722 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 1: that one? Don't I think you might be right. I 723 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 1: think you absolutely might be right in you don't think 724 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: they just blew through that one million. No, no, you 725 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,319 Speaker 1: got to be careful. Maybe they were. Maybe it was 726 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 1: a race at the bottom. I wonder if, like the 727 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 1: last guy they tried to bust, it was, you know, 728 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:59,080 Speaker 1: a Sears gift card, a microwave much as a real thing, 729 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: a real part of the investigation. It's real microwaves that 730 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: had their serial numbers removed, as well as a couple 731 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 1: of what speakers and like stereo receiver sets. Yeah, and 732 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: they also tried to get Oh who was it from 733 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,840 Speaker 1: Penthouse that they targeted in this Yeah, the editor of Penthouse. 734 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:26,720 Speaker 1: Unrelated to the politics. They tried to bribe and turn 735 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:32,600 Speaker 1: the publisher of Penthouse, and he absolutely said no. Yeah. 736 00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:34,719 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, his specific quote was are 737 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:40,480 Speaker 1: you out of you my? Yeah? And then later later 738 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: he sues the federal government for trying to bribe him. 739 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:49,919 Speaker 1: But so the FBI is taking these meticulous notes in Matt, 740 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,799 Speaker 1: I think we know they recorded each exchange, but I 741 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,239 Speaker 1: believe it's the first time in US history that that 742 00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:00,279 Speaker 1: kind of videotaping you're talking about of government officials physically 743 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,600 Speaker 1: taking bribes actually occurs. I think so. And Nadia's nuts. 744 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,800 Speaker 1: The one I saw was with John Murtha and he's 745 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:14,040 Speaker 1: offered fifty thousand dollars. And after he's offered this money, 746 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,360 Speaker 1: he goes on like, oh, well, you know, we're not 747 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,800 Speaker 1: going to do business yet. Like that, Let's do business 748 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,200 Speaker 1: for a while. Then you know, we'll see if we 749 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,920 Speaker 1: get to that level. Basically, we're all take cash money 750 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,680 Speaker 1: from you in that way, let's make sure this is 751 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:28,799 Speaker 1: all on the up and up. But then he talks about, well, 752 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,879 Speaker 1: you know, I'm on the ethics committee, so I've seen 753 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,200 Speaker 1: this kind of thing happen before where it goes really bad. 754 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,719 Speaker 1: He's just like, wait, are you or are you not 755 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: going to be taking money from these guys because you're 756 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,600 Speaker 1: definitely doing dirty work for them. It's very, very weird 757 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,960 Speaker 1: to watch some double think at play, you know, in 758 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:52,800 Speaker 1: some of these situations. And this documentation shows multiple sting ops, 759 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:57,759 Speaker 1: you know, recorded before live studio audience. Right There's there's 760 00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 1: something that occur in a house in a pretty nice 761 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,200 Speaker 1: da in DC, something that occurred at yacht off the 762 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:06,200 Speaker 1: coast of Florida, and a lot that occur in these 763 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,520 Speaker 1: kind of innocuous hotel rooms in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. 764 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:15,359 Speaker 1: In the end, seven very high level US politicians get 765 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,880 Speaker 1: jammed up. Six congressmen, and believe it or not, folks, 766 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:24,800 Speaker 1: one actual US senator and senators, not to sound too celtical, 767 00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,279 Speaker 1: are usually pretty good at park worrying out of that 768 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,920 Speaker 1: kind of conviction. Yeah, you have somebody do it for you, 769 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,400 Speaker 1: right on your behalf. And then oh well it was 770 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,960 Speaker 1: my aid, that bad aid. No, why'd you do that? 771 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:44,440 Speaker 1: On the inside, we just call it trading, right, Yeah, exactly, 772 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 1: So I guess we should. We should read the list 773 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,919 Speaker 1: of the people who got convicted before we go into 774 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:54,120 Speaker 1: the nitty gritty here. Oh, sure, we'll start with Let's 775 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:58,359 Speaker 1: start from the bottom, Richard Kelly of Florida, Yes, then 776 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,080 Speaker 1: John Murphy of New York. All all of these folks 777 00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:08,680 Speaker 1: except for the senator are congressional representatives. Frank Thompson and 778 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,720 Speaker 1: of New Jersey gets a bit of an honorable mention 779 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,160 Speaker 1: here because Frank refused the offer the first time, but 780 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:19,120 Speaker 1: then when Weinberg came back around, he accepted. That's what 781 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:23,360 Speaker 1: they call him Frankie two times in the joint. No 782 00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,480 Speaker 1: they don't. They probably just called him Thompson. But yeah, 783 00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:29,680 Speaker 1: I don't know about that. When I don't know whether 784 00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:34,320 Speaker 1: that was maybe just like part of a negotiation tactic 785 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,880 Speaker 1: or I don't we don't know the details there, but 786 00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,439 Speaker 1: probably the same deal with Joe Murtha where they're smart. Right, 787 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:46,759 Speaker 1: these everybody on this list has navigated politics, which is 788 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,080 Speaker 1: not an easy thing to do, right, So I imagine 789 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 1: that I don't know, that kind of thinking occurs all 790 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,840 Speaker 1: the time, just being cautious when you're being offered money, 791 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,359 Speaker 1: come to me correctly way that I can legally agree with, right, 792 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,239 Speaker 1: or have the appearance of such anyway. Next, we've got 793 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:10,239 Speaker 1: Representative Michael Myers of Pennsylvania Ozzie to his friends, Not 794 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:17,680 Speaker 1: that Penchael Myers. Okay, that Michael Myers. The third. We 795 00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:24,040 Speaker 1: also got Raymond Letterer of Pennsylvania. We've got John Jenrett 796 00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,879 Speaker 1: of South Carolina, and the big one you called it out, 797 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,320 Speaker 1: Senator who Harrison Williams of New Jersey peaked to his friends, 798 00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:38,360 Speaker 1: Oh man, Yeah, and that's not all right this there's 799 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,759 Speaker 1: a much larger list. There are other mayors, I think, 800 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,479 Speaker 1: and other people that got caught up. Yeah, five other 801 00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:50,239 Speaker 1: government officials, mayors, members of city councils. They got indicted 802 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:54,680 Speaker 1: and convicted. And our boy, the mayor of Camden was 803 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:59,399 Speaker 1: the first one to get convicted, which maybe he knew 804 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,319 Speaker 1: it was a short term grift because he really did. 805 00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,480 Speaker 1: He was a go getter, you know what I mean. 806 00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,359 Speaker 1: It's like it was like the Wikipedia of crime. If 807 00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,640 Speaker 1: you're interested in this, you might also enjoy or maybe 808 00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,040 Speaker 1: like the Netflix recommendation of crime. So this also bears 809 00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,640 Speaker 1: pointing out. With the exception in the first person we named, 810 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:22,440 Speaker 1: Richard Kelly of Florida, all of these politicians were members 811 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,880 Speaker 1: of the Democratic Party, at least in name. At least 812 00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:29,160 Speaker 1: in name, you could make a pretty solid argument that 813 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:36,040 Speaker 1: they were actually the Green Party. Dollars leave it. I mean, 814 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,960 Speaker 1: that's the argument the courts made, and each defendant had 815 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,080 Speaker 1: a separate trial because they each had a different kind 816 00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,439 Speaker 1: of deal with the chic some mining interests, some real 817 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:48,919 Speaker 1: estate stuff, etc. Eventually, the American people win the day. 818 00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,200 Speaker 1: By nineteen eighty one, all of these folks we named 819 00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:56,680 Speaker 1: were convicted of bribery and conspiracy. Kelly did try to 820 00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,879 Speaker 1: use the entrapment argument for his case. It didn't work, 821 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:04,759 Speaker 1: and there were some people who escaped indictment, Mirtha being 822 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,200 Speaker 1: one of them. Oh yeah, because they never took the money. 823 00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,239 Speaker 1: In that video with Mirtha I'm talking about. He refuses 824 00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:14,000 Speaker 1: the fifty thousand dollars. It is on video and you 825 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:15,960 Speaker 1: can watch right now. And it feels weird that he's 826 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,000 Speaker 1: even in the meeting. But he at least doesn't take 827 00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,319 Speaker 1: the money. Yeah, he doesn't take the money, and the 828 00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,200 Speaker 1: other person doesn't take the money. As South Dakota Senator 829 00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:29,200 Speaker 1: Larry Pressler, the news rocks the United States, and there 830 00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,359 Speaker 1: would be consequences, but maybe not the consequences we would 831 00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:37,319 Speaker 1: have hoped for. Abscam wins nineteen convictions, And as the 832 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:42,400 Speaker 1: memes say, Congress took that personally. They made a spectacle 833 00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:45,880 Speaker 1: of it, not talking about the need for greater accountability 834 00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:50,080 Speaker 1: in Congress, but denying and delaying FBI appointments as a 835 00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:53,720 Speaker 1: way of getting back to them opening hearings on whether 836 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,680 Speaker 1: or not the FBI should have even been doing this. 837 00:54:57,719 --> 00:54:59,960 Speaker 1: They also were able to touch parts of the media 838 00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,120 Speaker 1: to attack the credibility of app scam as an operation 839 00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:07,200 Speaker 1: in the FBI itself, and the FBI itself, and yeah, 840 00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:10,640 Speaker 1: and the American public. You know, the court of public 841 00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,000 Speaker 1: opinion is in session. And then you know, just picture 842 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,000 Speaker 1: all these people across the United States watching the news 843 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,399 Speaker 1: or listening to the radio, and they learn, oh, this 844 00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:25,080 Speaker 1: Weinberg guy, this absolute con man that is at the 845 00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:29,839 Speaker 1: helm of this he's in charge. That's a lot, that's 846 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,319 Speaker 1: a tall milkshake. Well, and you can imagine, you know, 847 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,480 Speaker 1: the heads of giant multinational media corporations could never take 848 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,520 Speaker 1: part in any kind of weird shenanigans like this, right, no, no, 849 00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:41,240 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, no, no no, no, no no, they wouldn't 850 00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:44,920 Speaker 1: do that. But this is where entrapment becomes a huge 851 00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:48,279 Speaker 1: deal as a talking point, as a point of discussion, Right, 852 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,960 Speaker 1: what is entrapment? Is this entrapment? It sure feels like entrapman. Yeah, 853 00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,680 Speaker 1: Congress is very focused on that. Guys. What you know 854 00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,840 Speaker 1: what we don't talk about enough just money aside. And 855 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:02,160 Speaker 1: I don't even know what that has to do with 856 00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:05,600 Speaker 1: the conversation money aside. Let's talk about entrapman. That's the 857 00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,120 Speaker 1: real problem here. So they do the matrix, dodge and 858 00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:14,399 Speaker 1: pivot for this. Weinberg does pretty well. He gets out 859 00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:16,840 Speaker 1: of three year prison sentence and he's paid one hundred 860 00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:21,040 Speaker 1: and fifty thousand dollars for his time, which is pretty decent, right, 861 00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:26,760 Speaker 1: fifty grand a year. Yeah, in the late seventies, yeah, 862 00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,120 Speaker 1: and I hope they gave it to him in a 863 00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:34,440 Speaker 1: three stacks one hundred dollar bills. But behind the scenes, 864 00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,239 Speaker 1: you know, as we have been talking about earlier, when 865 00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:42,640 Speaker 1: we discover this story, things got even uglier. Congress was 866 00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:47,880 Speaker 1: out for vengeance. It was not their primary concern that 867 00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,720 Speaker 1: elected representatives of the most powerful nation on the planet 868 00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,160 Speaker 1: might be easily swayed by as little as fifty grand 869 00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,239 Speaker 1: It was their concern that the FBI was getting above 870 00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,640 Speaker 1: its station and going out of pocket. They forced the 871 00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:08,600 Speaker 1: US Attorney General to issue new guidelines that hamstrung undercover 872 00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:12,880 Speaker 1: operations against politicians. They just seemed less concerned in the 873 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,320 Speaker 1: concerns about entrapment our valid sure, but they seem less 874 00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:21,280 Speaker 1: concerned with protecting the American public and more concerned with 875 00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:26,760 Speaker 1: protecting their colleagues and possibly cutting off any future investigations 876 00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:31,360 Speaker 1: into some of their own dealings. Congress through a tantrum. Yeah, well, 877 00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:36,479 Speaker 1: I mean they're basically saying, hey, FBI, we gotta run 878 00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,920 Speaker 1: for office over here, we gotta run cities in states, 879 00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,320 Speaker 1: and the federal government. We gotta make all those things happen. 880 00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,400 Speaker 1: And some of those things require a little handshake deal. Okay, 881 00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,919 Speaker 1: you can't be looking at us. You can't go undercover 882 00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,640 Speaker 1: and try and catch us doing what we do best, 883 00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:59,120 Speaker 1: shaking hands, making money. I mean, really, how do you 884 00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,560 Speaker 1: think the wheels on this country run? It's through greasing them. 885 00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:05,880 Speaker 1: You gotta greased them wheels. Who do you think you are? 886 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:10,080 Speaker 1: That's it? Who do you think you are? You? Listen here? 887 00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:14,600 Speaker 1: If I catch you inside Rhode Island after dark, you're 888 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:18,160 Speaker 1: gonna have a very different conversation, my friend. Do you 889 00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:23,640 Speaker 1: like your operating budget? FBI? Exactly? Exactly? Yeah, But their 890 00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:28,600 Speaker 1: mission of vengeance backfired a little bit because it made 891 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,640 Speaker 1: appscam a bigger story than it might have been otherwise. 892 00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:34,880 Speaker 1: And that gets us to I think the most disturbing 893 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:41,520 Speaker 1: part of this, folks, I mean, Matt Paul conspiracy realists 894 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:44,320 Speaker 1: playing a log at home. Why haven't there been more 895 00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:49,400 Speaker 1: investigations like this? This is the only one of its kind? Yeah, 896 00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,720 Speaker 1: because Congress set for the ton of rules of what 897 00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,120 Speaker 1: you can and can't do during an undercover investigation. From 898 00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:59,280 Speaker 1: that point forward, you're not getting you fool me once, 899 00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:03,480 Speaker 1: basically is what they say. Can't be fool to get 900 00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:09,240 Speaker 1: something like that. So the yeah, the rules, these are 901 00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:13,880 Speaker 1: called general guidelines. They kind of get a uniform approach 902 00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,040 Speaker 1: to undercover operations, which again is a valid thing, but 903 00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,560 Speaker 1: they formalize procedures that you have to jump through to 904 00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:26,240 Speaker 1: conduct and undercover op to avoid future controversy, and those rules, 905 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,400 Speaker 1: however you feel about them, have made something on the 906 00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,640 Speaker 1: scale of app scam pretty much impossible today. And if 907 00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:37,600 Speaker 1: you look at it, officials in modern day America have 908 00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:43,960 Speaker 1: far fewer abilities to hold the powerful accountable. And you 909 00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,000 Speaker 1: can make a solid argument, or a pretty compelling argument 910 00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:50,360 Speaker 1: at least that this is by design, Like there's a 911 00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:54,280 Speaker 1: reason this is a thing, and even now you know 912 00:59:54,280 --> 01:00:00,360 Speaker 1: it's nuts. People are divided on the FBI. Did the 913 01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,960 Speaker 1: FBI just was it operating in its own kind of 914 01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,960 Speaker 1: gangster way? Was it trying to pay Congress back for 915 01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:16,080 Speaker 1: investigating cointelpro police brutality. There aren't really what we would 916 01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:20,200 Speaker 1: understand as good guys at the top of a lot 917 01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,760 Speaker 1: of these situations, you know, And that's not to denigrate 918 01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:26,920 Speaker 1: members of Congress. Remember there are a lot of congressional representatives. 919 01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:34,040 Speaker 1: They're lost senators. They're not all some monolithic entity out 920 01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:37,200 Speaker 1: to grift people. And the FBI is not full of 921 01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:41,360 Speaker 1: a bunch of weird Hoover heights or whatever you know. 922 01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:47,120 Speaker 1: But the FBI kept pilot on those guidelines, right, They 923 01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:53,000 Speaker 1: kept putting more rules in and the last ones were 924 01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:56,760 Speaker 1: instituted in two thousand and one. I don't know, man, 925 01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,880 Speaker 1: It just seems like the FBI made a grand conspiracy 926 01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:06,160 Speaker 1: to convict crooks in office of conspiracy, and in Congress 927 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,640 Speaker 1: started a conspiracy of their own, and they sort of 928 01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:15,640 Speaker 1: taught the American public knowingly or unknowingly that they should 929 01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:20,640 Speaker 1: be watching like that Congress as the watchman, should watch itself. Yeah. 930 01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,440 Speaker 1: I don't know. Self regulation, baby, that's the name of 931 01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,400 Speaker 1: a game here in America. I think, by the way, 932 01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:28,960 Speaker 1: those guidelines you can look them up. The Smith guidelines, 933 01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:33,720 Speaker 1: the Thornborough Guidelines, and the Reno guidelines. They all started 934 01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three. And as you said, Ben Ranto, 935 01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:41,360 Speaker 1: two thousand and one, dude, here's what I'm gonna put forward. 936 01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:46,000 Speaker 1: You ready. Abscam was an inside job by Congress to 937 01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:49,760 Speaker 1: get the FBI. They entrapped the FBI to investigate Congress 938 01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:51,760 Speaker 1: so they could put forth the guidelines so that they 939 01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,480 Speaker 1: could never be investigated again. Boom, I think we've solved it. 940 01:01:56,240 --> 01:02:00,480 Speaker 1: I think that's it. And this is one of the 941 01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,360 Speaker 1: many reasons that we you and I will probably never 942 01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,600 Speaker 1: run for Congress. No, and we can never be in 943 01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:11,640 Speaker 1: the secret service. I might, I might mosey into public office, 944 01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:13,840 Speaker 1: but it's certainly not going to run. It doesn't feel 945 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,200 Speaker 1: worthy effort. I can see you mosey in. They could 946 01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:23,120 Speaker 1: salter in. Well, I reluctantly accept the nomination for comptroller. 947 01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,600 Speaker 1: Let's keep it, let's keep writing ourselves at as comptroller. 948 01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:32,680 Speaker 1: I just hope we never have to actually deliver on 949 01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:36,760 Speaker 1: that weird inside joke. Crush some numbers one day, cop 950 01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:40,480 Speaker 1: some trolls. Man, Wait, what does comptroller do again? It's 951 01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:43,520 Speaker 1: an accountant. It's way less fun than like the idea 952 01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:46,280 Speaker 1: that one trolls are real and two there's a government 953 01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:52,120 Speaker 1: job to just co sate them the computer troller. Okay, okay, 954 01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:55,320 Speaker 1: Well with that, folks, we would love to hear your 955 01:02:55,320 --> 01:03:00,920 Speaker 1: thoughts are do you believe that Congress purposely hamstrung the 956 01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:06,720 Speaker 1: FBI after abscam? Do you think that what do you 957 01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,800 Speaker 1: think an investigation like this would find in the modern day? 958 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:12,120 Speaker 1: You know, I think that's one of the biggest questions. 959 01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:15,440 Speaker 1: And are you surprised that it only took fifty grand 960 01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,520 Speaker 1: for some of the nation's most powerful people to become criminals. 961 01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:26,400 Speaker 1: Let us know Facebook, Internet, YouTube, TikTok until their strict 962 01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:29,360 Speaker 1: that goes through all the hits, all the good ones. 963 01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,800 Speaker 1: If you don't sip the social meds, never ye fear. 964 01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:38,200 Speaker 1: You can call us directly on a telephonic device. Yes, 965 01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:43,400 Speaker 1: dial one eight three three std wy t K when 966 01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,080 Speaker 1: you call in it's a voicemail system. You've got three minutes. 967 01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:48,640 Speaker 1: Give yourself a cool name. Doesn't matter what it is, 968 01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,200 Speaker 1: as long as it's not your real name. No government 969 01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:58,240 Speaker 1: names on our voicemail. Please standing. Also let us know 970 01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:00,440 Speaker 1: if you give us permission to use your voice end 971 01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,800 Speaker 1: message on the air in one of our listener mail segments. 972 01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:06,280 Speaker 1: If you've got more to say than can fit in 973 01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:08,600 Speaker 1: three minutes, why not instead send us a good old 974 01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:31,840 Speaker 1: fashioned email. We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff 975 01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,760 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know is a production of iHeartRadio. 976 01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:38,200 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 977 01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:41,160 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.