WEBVTT - Budgeting Like a Beast with Jesse Mecham #619 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.159 Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt. Today 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:26.600 we're talking budgeting like a beast with Jesse Meekom. That's right, 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.120 Jesse Meekom. He is joining us on the podcast today 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:32.400 and we are going all in on budgeting. I'm guessing 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:34.800 there's a number of folks listening who might recognize his name, 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:37.519 but I'm guessing even more folks are familiar with the 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:39.559 company he started back in two thousand three while he 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:42.600 was still in college. You need a budget, or why 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.720 NAB as it's commonly known what we call it. Millions 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.559 of individuals have now used why NAP to get on 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.960 a budget, which has allowed them to achieve their life 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:55.400 changing financial goals. And so whether that's simply paying off 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:59.080 debt or the complicated endeavor of getting on the same 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.880 page as your partner, that's difficult. Uh. Jesse has likely 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.440 thought more about budgeting over the past twenty years than 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:08.520 anyone else out there, so we're excited to talk with 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:11.720 him about all the things that he's learned and observed. Jesse, 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.319 thank you for joining us today. I am so glad 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:16.679 to be here. Thanks guys, Jesse. We're glad to have 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:19.080 you and the first question we ask everyone who comes 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:21.440 on the show is what's your what do you like 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:23.800 to sport on? We call it your craft beer equivalent 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:26.319 because Matt and I we spend more money than most 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:28.520 people would think is normal on craft beer because we 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:30.600 love it. But we're happy to do that because we're 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:33.000 saving and investing well for the future while we're spending 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:34.240 a lot of money on beer. So what do you 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:35.640 what do you spend a lot of money on that 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:38.160 maybe people might think is kind of crazy. Yeah, I 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:40.360 wouldn't mix beer and what I spent a lot of 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.720 money on, but I would say my my wood shop 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.600 there is it is a it is a money pit, 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.960 and there's always another thing you can buy. I'm I'm 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:56.080 currently in the shop for a floor or in the 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:00.760 market for it like a floor standing variable speed drill press. 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:02.760 So what are you making into this wood shop? Are 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:04.800 you making? Like canoes? Ron swantson style? What are you doing? 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.480 If I had these skills of Ron Swanson, I would 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:11.000 have arrived. But I he's in real life. He is 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:16.080 a killer woodworker's yeah, I mean making a beautiful handcrafted canoes. Yeah, 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.760 it's insane. So yeah, anyway, my I have his book 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.880 here actually got good clean fund by Nick Offerman. It's 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.640 it's excellent. But the yeah, I will make anything. But 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.040 right now I'm working on shop furniture like I'm because 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:31.880 you can kind of learn like it's if it's if 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.000 it looks bad, it doesn't matter because it's all in 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:35.799 your shop. So I'm learning a lot of the basics. 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:38.920 I'm I'm taking like a general like basic woodworking course 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.040 where they go through all the different jointry, kind of 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:44.240 the foundational joinery. And I love just being a novice. 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:48.079 So I have a shop that looks like I'm a professional, 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.040 and I am a novice, and I'm not ashamed to 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:52.680 admit it. I just I think it's fun to get 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.320 the new tools. So whenever I can squeeze it into 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.839 the old plan, I do it very nice. So are 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:02.800 you pursuing this purely out of just with it, you know, 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:04.920 with it being a passion as you know, as oh yeah, 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:07.720 an interest, not something that you foresee being able to sell. 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.959 You know, fine, I would have ruined it. I don't 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:13.320 want to ruin my hobby by monetizing. He's gonna open 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:14.880 up like a woodside stand. People are gonna be like 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.920 I'm not paying for that, Jesse. Jesse might get so 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:20.919 good that folks are saying, please let me buy that babe, 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.560 that beautiful I will give. I will gift it to them. 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.000 I will, but I refuse to transact in this way. 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.240 I don't want to taint it. Don't take, don't ruin it. Jesse, 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.400 I love it. Well, let's kind of start talking about money, 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.440 not just the wood, but so unlike most folks, it 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.360 sounds like your parents actually had like a positive influence 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:41.880 on you when it comes to, uh, getting you started 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.600 down the path of personal finance. How is it that 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.240 you first started learning about money? So, I, uh, my 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:52.440 parents modeled it well. They modeled frugality well, I will say, um, 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:54.520 they were really good at just saying we don't have 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:56.640 money for that, we're not gonna spend money on it. 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.200 We we lived, I mean we were, you know, middle class, 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.360 but we lived below our means as far as I 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:08.200 could gather as a as a kid and kind of observe. 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:10.800 So they were just very, very frugal. I used to 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.480 think that the word vacation meant driving ten hours to 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.800 Grandma's house. I didn't know that there were other options 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.440 besides just driving up there and then literally one time, 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.680 starting to read the Encyclopedia at a I got to avocus. 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:27.320 I didn't make it very far, but like I just 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.560 boared on my vacation, so that, I mean, that's just 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:32.440 what we did and I didn't know any different, and 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:34.039 it was great and they were loving, and so you 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.520 can't complain at all. But one thing that that my 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:41.560 dad in particular did. I think I was fourteen, and 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:43.800 he said, hey, you should read these books. And so 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:45.880 he didn't just say I want to teach you about money. 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:48.080 He's just like, you might find these interesting. And he 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:52.279 gave me a couple. He gave me Ramsey's book that 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:55.039 was Financial Peace, and I think now The Total Money 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.560 Maker was kind of there, his more flagship book, but 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.480 Financial Peace was the one that I read. And Ramsey 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.480 taught me not to like debt at all, to hate 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.679 debt even as a fourteen year old, and I thought, okay, 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:07.320 that sounds good. And then he gave me The Millionaire 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.400 next Door, another great one to kind of learn like 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:12.960 it's not about what you see, but it's about what's 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:14.479 kind of under the covers a lot of the time. 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.359 And then the final one was the richest man in Babylon, 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:22.320 which is probably my favorite overall, just those principles approachable. 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:24.240 It's the same first one I would give, you know, 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:26.360 I give my kids when they are like, hey, I 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:27.840 want to learn something. I don't want to sit down 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:29.640 and teach him. I just want to say, well, here's 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:31.760 a book. And I think as a kid it's easier 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.400 to learn sometimes from someone else, and so I think 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.760 it was wise of my dad just to say, well, hey, 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.440 learn it from these you know, from these books, and um, 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:42.159 it formed a lot of my early opinions. Some of 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.920 them have developed over the years a little differently, but 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:48.159 it was early informative. And I am forever grateful that 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:51.440 I I had a disdain for debt early on and 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:55.200 avoided in college because of that, and that I saw 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.000 early on that I should start with start with investing 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:00.719 and get an early jump on it. So yeah, I 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.320 will be forever grateful for the to the authors of 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.160 those books and to my dad for giving them to me. Well, 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.600 you talk about modeling your parents, modeling the right behaviors, 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:11.960 but then not being the ones to necessarily preach it 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.520 at you, you know, over and over, and I think 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:17.000 that's really important because I think modeling goes the farthest. 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.200 Then let someone else do the preaching and maybe that's 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.520 the best combo. And it's interesting you mentioned your kids too. 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:27.040 You've got seven kids, which is uh as much as 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:31.440 Matt and I have to catch up. You need a 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.440 spreadsheet to run that many kids, right, you guys would 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:36.760 be fine? But yeah, well it's easier for us. I've 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.000 got family five, has got family six, but you got it. 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.080 You got a massive family. So how does that how 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:44.799 has that impacted your did that like make you feel 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:46.719 like you needed a budget? Obviously you started your journey 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.479 even before that, but you have you found it to 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:50.960 come in even more handy, haven't. I've been big of 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:54.760 a family. Well, honestly, the first the thing that made 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:56.960 me and my wife's name is Julie, that that made 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.719 us feel like we had to really be careful early 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.080 on was we were we were dirt poor, and we 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:06.760 were both in school and just eking by, and then 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:09.680 we were gonna get married. And so combining these meager 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:12.680 finances together it doesn't do any There's no synergy there. 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:14.760 You're just like, okay, now we both make I mean, 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.239 there was just no win and we were actually paying 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.200 more in rent than we would have been as single 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.000 kids anyway. So I'm just like, man, Julie, we gotta 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.760 be really careful. So we get married. I build this 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.640 little spreadsheet that later became wine Nop, but at the 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.160 time it was just for me and for Julian. We 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.200 start watching everything really close. But the thing that pushed 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:36.400 me to say, hey, maybe I could sell this spreadsheet 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:38.680 was it had worked for us for that year. We 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:42.680 were able to start saving money and then um, we 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:45.600 saw that a baby was coming. It was it was planned, 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:47.960 but we were still not making a lot of money, 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.120 like ten bucks, you know, eleven bucks an hour and 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:52.920 trying to get through school and so to have a 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:56.120 baby inbound, that was what made us think, Okay, we 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.720 gotta try and figure out some way to let Julie 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:02.920 exit the workforce, uh and have me be able to 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.600 try and balance maybe earning some side money and finishing 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:12.000 at school. So the push of of providing for kids, oh, 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.240 that was what gave us that that that drive, and 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.360 so I'm grateful for it. It's not fun in the moment, 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.040 but it does kind of squeeze the creativity out of 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:24.960 you at times. Kicking the pants nothing like another human 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.440 being being depended on your ability to manage your own 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:30.440 finances in order to provide for them. So that's certainly 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:33.160 can be that, like you said, you'll kick in the pants, 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.800 But like, what would you say, Jesse, to folks who 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:38.480 or otherwise than just repulsed by the idea of making 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.920 a budget? Essentially, I would love for you to maybe 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:42.880 make a case for budgets for those out there who 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.840 don't necessarily feel like it's something they need to do. Yeah, 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:47.840 I mean I I don't even like the word budget. 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.120 I wish that our company was named something really I 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.959 don't know, fancy, like it sounds like a perfume. Maybe 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.040 I don't know, something different. Because people they hear the 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:01.680 word budget and they think restriction, no more fun, diet um. 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.920 It's just like everything is just going to kind of 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:06.920 bear down on them, and maybe their their spouse or 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.319 significant other tells them, hey, we need a budget, and 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:11.880 then it's like double worse. It's like, Okay, not only 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:13.559 will be a budget, but you're going to be running 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:15.080 the budget and I'm gonna be the one that's making 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.680 all the mistakes and just nothing is good about it. 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:22.200 So a budget is really it's just a plan. And 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:26.800 all we really care about is that people are intentional 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:31.160 with their money, and that's it. That's the end of it. 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:33.760 We want people to love how they spend their money 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:37.280 instead of having their spending just stress them out, strain 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.280 their relationship, suck the fun out of everything. I mean, 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:42.360 people are so worried about a budget taking the fun 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:44.920 out of life, But they will go on vacation with 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:48.320 this like this low burn, like kind of simmer in 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:50.679 the back of their mind as they're racking up credit 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:52.640 card debt. They're just like, I know this isn't good. 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.200 I know this isn't good. And so I'm trying to say, well, 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.199 maybe try the thing where you save up for the 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.400 vacation and you actually get to spend money guilt free. 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.520 So a budget is just a plan, and it's it's 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:05.680 your plan and you get to make it however you want. 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.000 But if it means that if you have to do 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.199 a budget in order to have a pile of intention 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:12.760 kind of like rising up behind your money, then that's 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:14.160 that's what we want, and that's what we're going to 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.560 call it. Were you got. You gotta love how you 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:18.440 spend your money. If you feel guilty about it. There's 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.120 a problem, right, If you're arguing with your spouse, it 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.360 means there's a problem. And so we want to get 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:26.200 that spending lined up with your real priorities. And then man, 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:28.840 you're off to the races that that's when money becomes fun. 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.360 And I don't know, I can't imagine any other way. 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:33.320 So do we just rename you need a budget? Two? 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.920 You need a money plan, wineamp something like that, or 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.320 the can thing. I can you know, mystique or something 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:41.280 I don't know. Okay, all right, well, yeah, you let 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:43.040 me know when you're ready for that rebrand. I'm curious 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:45.319 to hear how cool water I think when it's the 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:49.520 middle school was a good one. Uh well, Jesse, some 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.240 folks in the financial independence community, they're just supernaturally frugal, right, 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.640 and so they would say, I am intentional with my money, 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:57.680 but I don't feel like I need the budget part. 0:10:57.720 --> 0:10:59.640 And so based on what you just said, what would 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.000 you say to someone like that who says, like, I'm 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:04.280 handling things pretty well, I've got a huge gap between 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.280 incoming and outgoing um investing a lot for the future, 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:10.199 Like do I need to sit down and actually like 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:14.160 mess with the numbers every single month or every other week. Yeah, 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:16.800 I know, now they don't if if they're if you 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.960 have some massive gap between you know, money in and 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.160 money out, and the net worth keeps climbing even if 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.840 the markets doing what it's been doing, especially, then you're 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.160 good to go. You have a plan and the plan 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:32.199 is working because the score that we're keeping is net worth, 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.200 and especially I would say the score is how much 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.760 you are sending to your investment pile. Not so much 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.120 fluctuations in the market. You can't totally control that, but 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:42.040 the fact that you're you're you know, you've got a 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:44.760 big shovel and you're flinging tons of money over the 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:48.160 wall into that retirement bucket. It's you're winning. So I 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.600 wouldn't change a thing now for someone that's like, hey, Jesse, 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.400 um my net worth it's you know, I'm not really 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.680 saving a ton, but I know that I'm frugal. Then 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:01.040 I'd be like or they say, or they like, already 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:03.680 how much? Yeah, they I already know how much I spend. 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.600 I'm like, no, or I I I know that I 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.080 just I eke by anyway, So I already am tight. 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.040 I don't need to Look, that's all just ways of 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:14.880 saying like I don't really want to be aware, or 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:17.160 I'm actually unaware, or I think I'm aware and I'm not. 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:19.360 All those things we want to make sure we iron out. 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.360 So but for the person that like literally their money 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.200 just keeps growing and growing, Yeah, you hit it, You're 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.319 you're doing it. You just don't. You aren't super granular 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:32.880 in your plan for your spending, but you're you're nailing 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.960 it on those big, big movers, you know, those big goals. 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:37.960 Then yeah, you're you're good to go. I wouldn't have 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.120 you change a thing. I don't want to say those 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.320 people are unicorns, but they're not. It's just I'm not 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:47.199 worried my market's going to disappear by just you know, Yeah, 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.720 that's that's maybe one percent of the population that really 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:54.120 isn't that isn't that realm of managing their finances. But 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:55.800 I do think it's important to mention that that some 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.920 of those folks is exist and they might not need 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.240 a budget. In the same way that if I could 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.000 interject one more thing, um someone that's uh, you know, 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:08.000 Elon Bezos, these massively wealthy people, they still hopefully with 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:12.880 all of those resources hopefully are being extremely intentional with 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.560 all of that value that's there. So when when you 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:18.880 have something that's like I make tons Jesse, I don't 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:20.640 have to worry about it. I would kind of turn 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:25.439 around and say, listen, man, you you have been gifted this, 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:27.320 You've worked for it, however you want to say, this 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:31.440 came into your possession. You have something tremendously valuable in 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:38.360 this world. Let's not be so cavalier and so flippant 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:42.480 about the fact that you have this massively useful resources 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:47.959 that could potentially be, you know, deployed to have some 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.520 great effect in the world. And I'm not even meaning, hey, 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.160 you know, shame on you for not giving it away. 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:54.640 There are plenty of charities that I'd be like, oh, 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:56.760 that probably wasn't a great use of money, if you know, Like, 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.800 I'm no judge of that. But just let's take you 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.080 and make sure that all of your intention, all of 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.000 the best parts of you are Chamma behind that big 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.960 pile of money, and then it becomes something great and grand. 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.679 Let's not have it just be frittered away. So for 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.040 those that have a fantastic pile of resources, I think 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.040 it's incumbent on upon them even more so to be 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:23.320 really intentional, really thoughtful, careful about what they do with it. Yeah, 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.320 maybe maybe that looks like a budget, but like you said, 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.600 it's it's having a plan. And I think even those 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.000 folks would be able to benefit from a plan because 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.640 you take a high reformer and you put them under 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.560 the direction of an amazing coach, and all of a sudden, 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.840 they're doing stuff that they never thought was possible. Right, 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.560 if making millions came easy to them, we'll just think 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.080 what you could do otherwise. But I like what you 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.000 said to like from a at least from an investing standpoint, 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:47.640 they're they're kind of knocking it out of the park. 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:49.760 But I mean, one of the reasons that are one 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:51.720 of the ways I guess my wife and I were 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:53.560 able to Kate and I that we were able to 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.120 get on the same page just when it came to budgeting, 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.080 is because we saw it as a way essentially, as 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.200 a way for us to have some freedom in how 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:01.880 it is that we spend our money, because I think, 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:04.960 I mean, my natural tendency might be to not just 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:10.880 be frugal, but just to seriously deprive ourselves. And yeah, exactly, 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:14.920 we saw an ability for us too, Like you said, 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:16.960 be intentional with our money, but just we had the 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.680 freedom to then spend our money in the ways that 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.520 we said we wanted to. But maybe in practice we 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.960 found that to be harder. Moving it from the head 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:28.200 and what we said we're gonna do on paper into 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.480 reality for us was difficult. Yeah, absolutely, it's it's it's 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.160 liberating to have the plan allow you to do things. 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:36.760 It's weird because you set up the plan, you agreed 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:38.880 to it, you wrote it down a week before or whatever. 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.640 It's weird that we suddenly divorce ourselves from the plan 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.440 as if it's not us, but it is. But it 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.480 allows us to kind of push, like differ back to 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:48.840 it and say, well, what did the plans say I 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:50.960 could do all the plans that I could buy these 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.280 fantastically expensive boots that will last forever. And I say 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:56.480 that because it's a real example that I'm in the 0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.160 market for, so splurge again. But I you know, it's like, Okay, this, 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.000 this would be really cool. I'm really excited about this. 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.640 But push came to shove. If the plan weren't telling 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:06.360 me that I actually could do it, I think I 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.080 would struggle with it because I'm just naturally wired to squeeze, 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.600 you know, squeeze those dollars. So I love that it 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.560 gives you the permission, like you give yourself the permission, 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:17.520 but in this indirect way that allows it to feel 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.120 a little more free flowing. Yeah. Again, I don't know 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.520 what percentage of the population those natural, ridiculously frugal people are. 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.680 I think Matt and I might both be those, and 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.080 and actually making a plan for our money has helped 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:29.960 us feel free to spend in the ways that we 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:33.400 otherwise would probably not do. And it's really it's helped 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.600 my marriage out because then I'm not like saying no 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:37.560 to everything, even though those are things we want to do. 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:39.560 But I guess, Jesse, I want to I want to 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.160 know more too about wine app and you talked about 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.200 kind of how it started with a spreadsheet that you 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.560 created just to be able to get by making very 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.040 very little money and to help your wife stay at home. 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.480 But how did it turn into a fintech company and 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:55.560 a wildly successful one. I mean, I saw at the 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:57.600 end of last year the Wall Street Journal said why 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.880 NAP was the best budgeting gap, Like, that's huge, that's like, yeah, so, 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.919 so how did it? How did you get to that point? Uh? Well, 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.760 you know, almost twenty years in you get the Washer 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:09.240 Journal to write about it, you know what I mean. 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:13.880 So it's like, yeah, like that would have helped a lot. 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.520 But I've always loved the topic. I've always loved teaching 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.040 people about it, and I am a teacher at heart, 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.880 and so we've always had the model. Now, the software, 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.400 the spreadsheet has been long gone as of like I think, 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.760 oh six or something, but then we had some really 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.160 um you know, some great software that you would download 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.040 and install and paste a license keeper people that grew 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:35.399 up without apps and whatnot. But then the apps came along, 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.119 and now the web app and so it just keeps. 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:39.919 The software keeps kind of hopefully keeping pace with what 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:43.159 technology is allowing us to do. But the method behind 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:46.520 it has has always been kind of like the special juice, 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:48.800 the thing that makes it work. So we always say 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:52.280 that the software is second fiddle to the method, to 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.080 the thinking. And if someone can take what we teach 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:57.520 method wise, these four rules, and I'm sure we'll get 0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.720 into later, but if they can take that and run 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.320 with it, no matter how they implement it, it'll work 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.160 really really well because the method works very very well, 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:09.359 even though the technology has changed. There are four rules 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.800 in particular that you wrote down a long time ago. 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:14.479 So we're gonna talk about those rules. We're gonna talk 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.080 about them in stone tablets. Actually, we're gonna talk about 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.000 maybe some just general budgeting strategy as well. We'll get 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:32.399 to all of that right after this break. All right, 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:35.040 let's keep rolling. Let's talk about budgeting like a beast. 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.040 We're still talking with Jesse Mecum And if there's Matt 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.120 anybody to cover this topic well with us, it is Jesse. 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:43.320 It's the guy that's a woodworker who's saving up for 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.080 some nice leather boots to wearing his woodshot exactly. I 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:47.760 don't want to don't want to puncture those toes. It's 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.200 like some mistake happens or anything like that. But Jesse, 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:52.560 you talked about the four rules. You're alluded to them 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.920 before the break, but that's where everything starts, when it 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:57.919 comes to the wine app software. Can you give us 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.680 an overview of those four rules and why you think 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.159 that that's kind of the revolutionary, like Matt said, secret 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.439 sauce to making budgeting work for people. Yeah, So I 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.720 mean we I have mentioned earlier that we want people 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.199 to love how they spend their money, and spending is 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.080 just decision making at the end of the day, and 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:17.080 people try and dress it up and make it some 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.639 other thing. That money is different, but it is just decisions. 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:25.520