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Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcast about the business

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Speaker 1: of entertain This is a Variety deputy music editor Jam

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Speaker 1: as Well. There's a good chance you've never heard the

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Speaker 1: name Richard Gotterer, but there's an equally good chance that,

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Speaker 1: if you're even a casual music fan, you've heard, streamed,

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Speaker 1: or even purchased something that he's done. As a songwriter

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Speaker 1: in the early nineteen sixties, he co wrote such classics

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Speaker 1: as I Want Candy, My Boyfriend's Back, and Sorrow. As

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Speaker 1: a producer, he oversaw classic albums by Blondie, The Go Goes,

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Speaker 1: Richard Hell, The Raven Nuts, and The Dumb Dumb Girls,

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Speaker 1: among many others. He co founded Sire Records in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty six with Seymour Stein, and thirty years later he

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Speaker 1: co founded The Orchard with Scott Cohen. Now owned by

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Speaker 1: Sony Music, that company is one of the world's largest

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Speaker 1: distributors of independent news. At eighty two years old, Richard,

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Speaker 1: who's originally from the Bronx, as you'll hear, still comes

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Speaker 1: into The Orchards East Village offices every day and continues

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Speaker 1: to work as a producer, most recently recording new versions

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Speaker 1: of a pair of songs he recorded with blues rock

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Speaker 1: singer Jeffrey Gaines in the eighties. He rerecorded those songs

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Speaker 1: to protest the reason overturning of Roe v. Wade and

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Speaker 1: the sad state of gun control in the United States. Now,

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Speaker 1: we didn't cover all of those topics in the conversation

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Speaker 1: you're about to hear, but we covered a lot of them.

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Speaker 1: So sit back and enjoy strictly business. Welcome back to varieties.

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Speaker 1: Strictly business with Richard. Got just just not off. What

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Speaker 1: was the original idea in the original inspiration for starting this? Huh, Well,

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Speaker 1: like um, Like all good things, they happen by accident,

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Speaker 1: you know. You think that person goes into adventure and says,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this and it's going to be the

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Speaker 1: greatest thing in the world, and we're gonna make so

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Speaker 1: much money. We had a small record label. It was

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Speaker 1: called Soul Three Records, s O L Third Planet from

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Speaker 1: the Sun the Earth, corny but true, and we had

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Speaker 1: some artists that we had put out. UM. Distribution for

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Speaker 1: independence in those days was not so. It was not

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Speaker 1: so simple, you know, UM and UM CDs and cascettes

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Speaker 1: mostly at that stage, right, Vinyl Isa final it was

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Speaker 1: c DS mostly, I would say c D s. Yeah. So, UM,

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Speaker 1: we had some computers before broadband, and we had a

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Speaker 1: few people working there. You mentioned Darryl Um and we

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Speaker 1: would go on the nascent internet and UM and see

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Speaker 1: if we could find somebody writing something about the type

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Speaker 1: of music that our bands were making, and then we

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Speaker 1: communicate with them blah blah blah, and we just go

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Speaker 1: back and forth, and not a lot happened. However, we've

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Speaker 1: discovered that there were two record stores on the Internet,

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Speaker 1: and those record stores were Music Boulevard and a place

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Speaker 1: called c D Now not CD Baby, c D now UM,

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Speaker 1: and we contacted them. Of course we needed outlets for

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Speaker 1: our content, and UM we were told they couldn't take

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Speaker 1: it because they weren't really record stores. They were virtual

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Speaker 1: fronts that was supplied by a back end supply liar.

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Speaker 1: What we realized then was that it was mostly major

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Speaker 1: label content or labels that are already had a history,

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Speaker 1: but independence had no opportunity to get onto these stores.

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Speaker 1: So UM we found out who to contact, Scott Cone

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Speaker 1: and I. The company was started by myself and Scott

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Speaker 1: Cohen and UM. We flew to Sacramento and I had

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Speaker 1: a meeting with them and told them that we would

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Speaker 1: bring them all the independent music in the world that

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Speaker 1: we had access to, because we saw there was no

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Speaker 1: independence on on the stores. And you know, they talked

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Speaker 1: to us, but we're gonna get to this later. They thought, yeah, well, Richard,

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Speaker 1: that's a really good idea. But did he tell me

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Speaker 1: what it was like at CBGB's Well, what was what

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Speaker 1: was Blindie like, what would it go goes like? Uh?

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Speaker 1: What was the brew building like? But we spent an

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Speaker 1: hour or two talking about this and the next thing

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Speaker 1: was Richard, you're one of us, we'll do this deal

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Speaker 1: with you. And when did you guys start transitioning to streaming?

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Speaker 1: So we started thinking digital, what could digital mean? And

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Speaker 1: as we started digging in deeper and deeper and talking

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Speaker 1: to people, we put a clause in the contract that said,

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Speaker 1: UM will distributor records to the Internet stores, and you

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Speaker 1: also give us the right to sell, store and deliver

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Speaker 1: your content digitally. UM. It worked out well. UM. By

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Speaker 1: the time iTunes opened, this was four or five years

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Speaker 1: before iTunes, we had about a D fifty using tracks.

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Speaker 1: So when we signed onto iTunes, we were among the

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Speaker 1: largest suppliers initially. Were you one of the first, if

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Speaker 1: not the first, to do that? I think so? How

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Speaker 1: did you transition from the model once you established yourselves

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Speaker 1: with downloading, how did you then transition to streaming? How

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Speaker 1: was your company set up for that? UM? Because physical

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Speaker 1: product was not bringing in what it once was, downloads

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Speaker 1: were plumbering in value. How did you transition to streaming?

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Speaker 1: The thing about the Orchard was as long as an

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Speaker 1: operation was legitimate UM meaning the download whatever organization was,

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Speaker 1: we would associate with as long as they could pay,

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Speaker 1: because we were protecting our artists, not just running our business,

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Speaker 1: but protecting our artists. And when Spotify came along and

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Speaker 1: and there was a formula for associating and paying for

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Speaker 1: stream some people think it's too little. Some people think

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Speaker 1: it's okay, you know. If you're a massive artist, it's okay.

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Speaker 1: If you're a small artist, it's too little, you know.

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Speaker 1: But whatever the thing is, we continue to use the

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Speaker 1: vision that we had for the Orchard in the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Just keep your eyes open. What's in the process, analyze it. UH,

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Speaker 1: if they're able to make music available in some form

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Speaker 1: throughout the world and sign an agreement and all legitimate

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Speaker 1: and can pay so we can um um protect and

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Speaker 1: pay the artists and labels that sign up with us.

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Speaker 1: We're going to expand, expand, expand. And that was it.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you one more thing about about the business,

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Speaker 1: because you mentioned BTS and and they've gone on to

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Speaker 1: another label. When you lose a big uh client, I

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Speaker 1: guess there would be a client. When you lose someone

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Speaker 1: like that, does it hurt the company or do you

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Speaker 1: have enough content enough and enough other artists as it

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Speaker 1: is so that you just kind of absorb it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we have enough content. And the truth is that the

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Speaker 1: ort it wasn't built on hits um until um. That's

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Speaker 1: a good point. I'm glad you brought that up. It's

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Speaker 1: it's wonderful pts for me. It's great that that they

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Speaker 1: did great, and I'm happy for him. I'm more amazed

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Speaker 1: by the fact that people were saying along with them

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Speaker 1: in Korean language, okay, so um they move on. It's

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Speaker 1: it's business, that's all we Obviously that's um a bit

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Speaker 1: of a loss of revenue, but our revenue was always

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Speaker 1: constant from our catalog and from adding more labels um

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Speaker 1: and doing more and more things. And of course, like

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Speaker 1: I said, there are others that sell, but UM no,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I think the thing that makes you what

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Speaker 1: you're really powerful is it? It succeeded, it was built

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Speaker 1: on and succeeded on UM without the need to depend

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Speaker 1: on that as your UM as your means of staying alive.

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Speaker 1: Just one yeah, so so yeah, I mean, I I'm

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Speaker 1: it's a shame they left, but they obviously got a

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Speaker 1: better deal. Let's go all the way back. How did

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Speaker 1: you get your start in music? When did you When

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Speaker 1: did it first become clear that you were gifted with

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Speaker 1: music or or had a t I never thought I

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Speaker 1: was gifted. Okay, but okay, so, um where it started?

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Speaker 1: I go back, I tell these stories. I mean, obviously

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Speaker 1: I was growing into the I was born. I'm now.

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Speaker 1: I may sound like I'm thirty five, but I'm not.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm I'm a bit older. Um. But I

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Speaker 1: was born into a generation after World War Two, which,

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Speaker 1: of course, the Generation Z that we call today knows

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Speaker 1: nothing about. I'm sure, um you know, um uh, But

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Speaker 1: I was born into that and the generation that generation

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Speaker 1: as it came to its teenage years. UM, America was

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Speaker 1: the hero of the world then, so we were prosperous

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Speaker 1: as hell, and radio is developing, and the new musical

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Speaker 1: feeling was coming, and the mixture of cultures was coming.

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Speaker 1: And um, there was a particular disk shocky in in

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Speaker 1: New York called He Came from Cleveland, which is why

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Speaker 1: the rock and hall fame it's there, um Alan Freed.

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Speaker 1: And I would listen on this new fangled thing called

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Speaker 1: a transispa radio that my parents got me. I put

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Speaker 1: it under my pillow, just sleeping, Richard, Yeah, yeah, I'm sleeping.

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Speaker 1: But I'd be listening to the Howling Wolf Muddy Waters.

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Speaker 1: He'd be playing. Uh, he's playing things that I never heard.

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Speaker 1: But but I didn't know a bit about it because

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Speaker 1: I had been interested in jazz before Benny Goodman, h

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Speaker 1: Glenn Miller, you know that kind of thing. I knew

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Speaker 1: the ink spots, uh you know. So, so I had

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Speaker 1: an inkling of do op. And I would listen to

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Speaker 1: all these things. And I had been a piano player.

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Speaker 1: I had, I had classical piano lessons, so I had

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Speaker 1: a piano, so I would try to mimic it right.

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Speaker 1: And then along comes Elvis Presley and a piano playing

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Speaker 1: fool Jerry Lee Lewis. So I say, I can do that,

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Speaker 1: and I'm writing songs on the piano and do you

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Speaker 1: know and and um ah. I lived on in an

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Speaker 1: apartment that was on the slope of a hill. It

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Speaker 1: was on the second floor, but I would leave the

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Speaker 1: windows open and one guy. One day, a guy leans

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Speaker 1: in the window and says, hey, kid, that's pretty good.

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Speaker 1: You shouldn't be looking at my window. He said, no, no,

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Speaker 1: that's good. And he tells me his name. He was

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Speaker 1: a songwriter from the tin pan Alley days for me,

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Speaker 1: an older guy. For all I knew, he could have

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Speaker 1: been thirty. He probably was fifty, but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But but the point is, he says, would you like

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Speaker 1: to make a record? I think I can get something

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Speaker 1: going for you. As I said, I have to ask

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Speaker 1: my father. And I went through this and we met

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Speaker 1: him and everything, and there was my first experience. I

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Speaker 1: went down to the Boro building and I met some

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Speaker 1: people and um, I'm trying to think if we we

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Speaker 1: made some demos. I must have been fourteen or fifteen. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: But by the time I was sixteen, Oh, I was

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Speaker 1: playing the piano, writing playing I learned to play boogie

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Speaker 1: woogie and and uh doo doo doo doo doo doo

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Speaker 1: doo doo doo doo doo doo doo do do Play

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Speaker 1: to St. Louis Blues. W C. Handy was my idol,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um, And I actually studied all this stuff,

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Speaker 1: and I write a song named after the song that

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Speaker 1: I love to Jerry Lee Lewis Great Balls of Fire.

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Speaker 1: My song was called I'm on Fire and get it done.

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Speaker 1: So I'm telling you this just now, so let's put

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Speaker 1: that to the sides. So I write the song and

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Speaker 1: I put it to the side. Later on, I go

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Speaker 1: to college, I forget all this rock and roll crap,

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Speaker 1: you know, because I'm get back into jazz because I'm

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Speaker 1: becoming intellectual, learned, a learned man, and I forget this

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Speaker 1: rock and roll crap until I'm sitting there, like with

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Speaker 1: you who are sitting here talking, I'm having lunch, and

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Speaker 1: some guy comes over to me and says, I want

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Speaker 1: to introduce you to somebody, And he introduces me to

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Speaker 1: someone who, um, whose father owned parking lots but just

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Speaker 1: bought a record division for some reason called seven Arts

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Speaker 1: seven Arts, I forget the other name. And then there

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Speaker 1: were people down there. I went down started writing storms

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Speaker 1: for them. They recorded me and we put something out okay,

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Speaker 1: and it got me back into the into the business.

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Speaker 1: I graduated college, went to law school. After a year,

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Speaker 1: I started getting off the D train from the Bronx

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Speaker 1: at Seventh Avenue, which is seventh Avenue fifty third Street,

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Speaker 1: which you walked down was the Brill Building sixteen fifty

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Speaker 1: was and UM I started writing songs. I was introduced

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Speaker 1: to somebody who would send me to different places to

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Speaker 1: play songs for people, and I would go and play

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Speaker 1: him for him. And one time, while I was visiting

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Speaker 1: this publisher that was sending me out on assignments, UM,

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Speaker 1: there were two other guys sitting there as well, and

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Speaker 1: we were waiting, and we were waiting, were waiting, and nobody.

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Speaker 1: Nobody showed up to. Oh no, he's busy. Now he's waiting.

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Speaker 1: How with this you're write? What do you do? What

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Speaker 1: do you do? Hey? I know it is a piano.

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Speaker 1: Let's go write a song. And that was Bob Felman

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Speaker 1: and Jerry Goldstein and Bob and Jerry and I formed

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Speaker 1: something called F G G Productions and we got signed

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Speaker 1: to a publishing house, Roosevelt Music, where we wrote songs

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Speaker 1: on assignment. We wrote songs for people. Uh, we learned

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Speaker 1: to make demos. That's how we learned to do everything.

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Speaker 1: And um eventually we left there, went to work for

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Speaker 1: the beginning in his Sony Boy. They come around all

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Speaker 1: the time in this story. UM CBS April Blackwood. We

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Speaker 1: were the first songwriters signed to April Blackwood Music and

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Speaker 1: we write a bunch of songs and it's all on

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Speaker 1: one contract. One of the songs was called My Boyfriend's Back.

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Speaker 1: Well by that time we already knew how to produce well.

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Speaker 1: The publisher wanted to give it, try to give it

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Speaker 1: to a group, the Hills much okay, I could understand it.

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Speaker 1: They were huge at the time. We said no. We

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Speaker 1: left our job there where we're getting seventy five dollars

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Speaker 1: a week each and then office. That was a lot

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Speaker 1: of money. In nineteen sixty three left it opened up

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Speaker 1: poor ourselves, made the record ourselves, and in sixty Broadway

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Speaker 1: passed around, met people and made a deal with Smash

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Speaker 1: Records and record came out four weeks later. It was

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Speaker 1: number one. That was it, and we're off for running

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Speaker 1: as producers. We'll be right back with strictly Business. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Variety. Strictly business with Richard God. Can you

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Speaker 1: describe what the atmosphere was like at the Brill Building

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Speaker 1: at that time. It's legendary, you know, they're they're all

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Speaker 1: sort of cliche stories we've heard. What was it actually

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Speaker 1: like and was it in the Brill Building or was

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Speaker 1: it usually across the street at sixty I think you

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Speaker 1: said it was both. It was in the Brill Building,

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Speaker 1: it was in sixteen fifty Broadway, which was in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the block between Seventh Avenue and Broadway fifty

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Speaker 1: one street, and there were companies on six Broadway, which

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Speaker 1: is now where David Letterman was at Sullivan Theater. So

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Speaker 1: um um. Yeah. What it was like if you're a

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Speaker 1: songwriter or not affiliated with a publisher, you could write

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Speaker 1: your songs and you could walk through the buildings and

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Speaker 1: knock on doors and say I got a song for this,

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Speaker 1: and and independent publishers would listen to it, you know,

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Speaker 1: and if they liked it, they give you like a

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Speaker 1: fifty buck advance and take an option for six months

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Speaker 1: to see they could get an artist to record it.

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Speaker 1: Because what it was like was the publishers had the

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Speaker 1: relationship with the A and R men and in the

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Speaker 1: bigger firms like where we wound up at Roosevelt or

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Speaker 1: April Blackwood, uh, or in the days of Nevin ze

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Speaker 1: Kirshner all the music Don Kirshner and Al Nevin who

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Speaker 1: had this writing community and we were part of that

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Speaker 1: at Roosevelt and artists would come in looking for songs.

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Speaker 1: So if you had to hit record, they would say, oh, um,

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Speaker 1: so and so was looking for song, and you would

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Speaker 1: listen to the record and you would write something you

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Speaker 1: felt would fit them. So as a songwriter, you were

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Speaker 1: really honing your craft. And uh, you could actually walk

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Speaker 1: from place to place if you were fortunate enough to

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Speaker 1: be signed to a publishing company who paid you, you know,

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Speaker 1: an advance every month, every every week, um, and gave

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Speaker 1: you a small office or a keyboard to sit at

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Speaker 1: five hours a day. So you would take a legal

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Speaker 1: pad and you'd go in and you you're just right

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Speaker 1: and uh, and that's what that's what it was. Was

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Speaker 1: there a clear point where you left Sire Records and

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Speaker 1: became an independent producer? Yeah? When was it? Um, it

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Speaker 1: was probably seventies seventy seven after we signed the Ramons.

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Speaker 1: The Ramons were fine. I mean that came to us

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Speaker 1: through um Um, a guy that I had found I

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Speaker 1: was working for sire Craig Leon. Yeah, and Craig found

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Speaker 1: the Maramons, worked on the first record and stuff, and

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Speaker 1: I guess I just was tired of it and wanted

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Speaker 1: to get back into just producing and people paying me

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Speaker 1: to produce. So um uh, I left, but I'm involved.

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Speaker 1: Marti thou got me involved in said come down to

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Speaker 1: cb GPS. Things are happening there, and that's where I

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Speaker 1: met Blondie, Robert Gordon, um Um, Richard Hell and the

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Speaker 1: void OIDs. But I started making records that were mortal

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Speaker 1: my feeling of independence and roots. Did you record Heart

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Speaker 1: of Glass with Blondie? Did you try it during this?

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Speaker 1: They wouldn't do it. They wouldn't do it. It was there,

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Speaker 1: It wasn't called hard of Glass. They called it their

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Speaker 1: disco song. Yeah. I wanted to do it, uh badly,

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Speaker 1: but truthfully, changing the lyric calling it heart of Glass

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Speaker 1: made a difference. And also Mike Chapman, you know, added

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Speaker 1: the element that I might not have added, you know,

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Speaker 1: he um, he is maybe a little more technical. I

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Speaker 1: probably would have stuck with the drums without a click

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Speaker 1: track or something. You know. What was the lyric change.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't called hard a glass, it was called a

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Speaker 1: disco song. And uh, what was that love? If it

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Speaker 1: turned out to be a pain in the s And

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Speaker 1: when you go on further, uh, when I get involved

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Speaker 1: with the go goes? Well, do you want to know them?

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Speaker 1: They were a punk group, but they already had forty

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Speaker 1: people that bought their punk version of of Um, we

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Speaker 1: got the beat? You know? Did you see the potential

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Speaker 1: there to make them into more of a pop group

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Speaker 1: because they were They were genuine l A punks, all

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Speaker 1: of them. I saw, if you're gonna bother get involved

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Speaker 1: with me, you have you would have to have known that.

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Speaker 1: I knew how to make records and I cherished the song.

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Speaker 1: So how do you make a record? Um? Getting the

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Speaker 1: best out of a song so that people might be

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Speaker 1: interested in it. Um. And that was all really So

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Speaker 1: I would help them and say, you know, you have

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Speaker 1: to slow it down a little bit. You want to.

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Speaker 1: I understand you. You play the instruments, but let me

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Speaker 1: help you make what you play a little bit better. Kathy,

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Speaker 1: when you and I talked to her about this, I said,

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Speaker 1: you know, just listen to what the bass drums doing

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Speaker 1: play the exact same thing said, don't don't go doom doom,

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Speaker 1: doom doom against it, go boom doom doom. That's all

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Speaker 1: do with it. So you have a big a bottom.

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Speaker 1: And then oh, you know the guitars, um, Charlotte and Jane,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Let me get you a better guitar.

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Speaker 1: You play a strat and you play a telecaster, and

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Speaker 1: the two of them would make a more interesting sound,

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Speaker 1: you know that kind of a thing. So so putting

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Speaker 1: that together. But they played every instrument. They might have

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Speaker 1: resisted a bit when I would change the beats or

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Speaker 1: slow them down. And the truth is that when we

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Speaker 1: finally mixed the record, they went home and I get

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Speaker 1: a call from Miles, Miles Copeland, who I don't know

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Speaker 1: if he I can't remember if he threatened to kill

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Speaker 1: me or beat me up because and he was a

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Speaker 1: black belt karate and uh, you know, and he he

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Speaker 1: was managing them and he and he had virus records. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: And he said, you took a punk group and you

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Speaker 1: made them pop. I said, well, it's a really pop

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Speaker 1: listen to pop music today. It's sort of a variation.

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Speaker 1: And you know, eventually they put it out and the

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Speaker 1: girls didn't speak to me for six months. They were

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Speaker 1: like shattered because they were punk girls and that was

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Speaker 1: Strictly Business with Richard Gottterer. Tune in next week for

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Speaker 1: more from Variety Strictly Business