1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our talk about tomatoes. 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: You know, there was a question last time that we 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: explored at some length, which is this question you've had 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: for a while, Robert, I think based on reading a 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: placard at a botanical garden, which is, did the people 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: of the past few hundred years regard tomatoes as poisonous? 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes there's this generalization made that you know, it used 11 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: to be that everybody thought tomatoes were poison but now 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: we figured out that's not true. Now, of course tomatoes 13 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: are not poisonous, but it's also the historical characterization is 14 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: a little more complicated than that, right. Yeah, Again, it 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: kind of depends on what part of the world you're 16 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: looking what say, you're which European nation, and during what 17 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: period of the tomatoes um rise to power as a 18 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: global food source. But I came across a great article 19 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: that is by the same author as the author of 20 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: a book that we talked about in in the last episode, 21 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: a book about tomatoes. Uh Andrew F. Smith. Smith is 22 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: also the author of an article that was published in 23 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: nineteen in the journal Pharmacy and History called Tomato Pills 24 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: will Cure All Your Ills. And this is a fantastic 25 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: article about, you know, tomato pills for your jaundice and 26 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: your diarrhea. It's a wild ride and I can't wait 27 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: to get into it. Well, let's definitely get into it. 28 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: But first, just your reminder, this is a part two. 29 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: We do encourage you to go back and listen to 30 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: part one before proceeding by all means Part one first. Okay, So, 31 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: as we discussed previously, when the tomato was first introduced 32 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: to Europe from meso America, of course, in meso America, 33 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: among the waddle speaking p bowl it was cultivated as 34 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: a food crop, and then it's spread from there to 35 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: Europe and then to the rest of the world. But 36 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: when this first happened, some European writers did claim that 37 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: the tomato was was not good food, it was not 38 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: fit to put in one's body. Uh, And they wrote 39 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: as much in their their culinary and horticultural treatises. Though, 40 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: as we talked about last time, a lot a lot 41 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 1: of these writers will sort of note that, well, people 42 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: in Spain and Italy somehow eat these things, but uh, 43 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: but nevertheless they are not good to eat or their 44 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: poison or whatever. But this changed over time, and by 45 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds tomato use was definitely on the rise 46 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: throughout Europe, especially throughout southern Europe, though some of the 47 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: old ideas still lingered here and there. According to Smith, 48 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: though within the culture of the United States specifically, and 49 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: I guess this would have been you know, the British 50 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: colonies in the east of the United States, and then 51 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: after the Revolution in the early United States, the tomato 52 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: was still pretty widely were ard it as in some way, 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: you know, not good to eat. Definitely through a lot 54 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: of the eighteenth century, though that was changing, and then 55 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: it underwent a relatively rapid transition during a few decades 56 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: in the first half of the nineteenth century. So he 57 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: says that around eighteen twenty, it was still a pretty 58 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: widespread belief within the United States that tomatoes were somehow 59 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: inedible and maybe poisonous, not good to eat. But um, 60 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: he says, quote, within three decades after eighteen twenty, farmers 61 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: cultivated tomatoes the length and breadth of the country, in 62 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: almost every garden from Boston to New Orleans, and Americans 63 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: served them on every table from July to October. According 64 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: to a British observer, Americans served tomatoes every day, prepared 65 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: in every imaginable way, and were the scene a quanon 66 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: of American existence. So that that's a pretty dramatic shift. Yeah, absolutely, 67 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: to go from poison to just the thing that you 68 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: eat like crazy for its entire season, Yeah, exactly. So 69 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: what led to this change in attitudes over such a 70 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: relatively short time. Well Smith notes that there were many reasons, 71 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: but it seems one of the most important was quacks. 72 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: I love it, I love it, I love a good 73 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: quacks for good story. Okay, So, as we alluded to 74 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: last time, many books and supposed botanical or horticultural experts 75 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,799 Speaker 1: in Europe and the colonies since the sixteenth century seemed 76 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: to think there was something wrong with eating tomatoes, you know, 77 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: maybe they were poisonous, maybe inedible. Clearly not everybody in 78 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 1: Europe thought this way. Tomatoes were, you know, very popular 79 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: in Italy and France and Spain and Portugal and more 80 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: and more. People of course, were of course cooking with 81 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: tomatoes all the time, but in England. Philip Miller, who 82 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: was a superintendent of the Chelsea Physic Garden, wrote in 83 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: the seventeen fifties that small yellow love apples were starting 84 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: to be directed for medicinal use by one call in 85 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: their dispensatory, and Miller even in the seventeen fifties noted that, well, 86 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: even some English people are eating tomatoes in soup. Uh, 87 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: though at the same time he says, quote there are 88 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: persons who think them not wholesome. So this ambiguity still 89 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: exists somewhat, But by the seventeen fifties it's clear that 90 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: some doctors and medical students are trying trying experiments with 91 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: tomatoes as medicine, and some English people just straight up 92 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: put him in the stew uh. And apparently an early 93 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: evangelist for tomatoes in the British colonies in America was 94 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: a doctor named John de Sequeira, who was born in 95 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: London but educated in Leyden, and who Thomas Jefferson claimed 96 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: had introduced tomatoes to Williamsburg, Virginia. Jefferson also claimed that 97 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: des Aquaira was fond of saying that quote, a person 98 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: who should eat a sufficient abundance of these apples would 99 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: never die. Now. I don't know if he meant that in, 100 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, with a touch of irony, or if he 101 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: was serious that though it does make me think that, hey, 102 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: what if the humble tomato was actually the fruit of 103 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: the tree of life, Because there's always been a debate 104 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: about in the story of the Garden of Eden in 105 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: the Book of Genesis, what the fruits of these trees 106 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: are actually supposed to be. The Book of Genesis does 107 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: not say in this story what the fruits of the 108 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of 109 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: good and evil we're supposed to be a lot of 110 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 1: people have assumed them to be apples, but there it's 111 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: that's not explicitly stated. So people have proposed all kinds 112 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: of answers to this question. Maybe they're apples, maybe figs, 113 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:41,559 Speaker 1: maybe pomegranate, I think unsurprisingly, Terrence McKenna said, the story 114 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: was supposed to include a reference to a mushroom, but 115 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: what if the forbidden fruit was a tomato? Yeah, I mean, 116 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: I don't know that that actually checks out with what 117 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: we know about the origins of the tomato, but I 118 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: like the idea. No, it would certainly not check out. 119 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: Like the authors of the Book of Genesis would not 120 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: have known what a tomaked was right because it was 121 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: from South America. But Smith points out that many of 122 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: the early promoters of tomatoes in the colonies were doctors, 123 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: and this is not all that surprising since tomatoes were 124 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: becoming accepted during the eighteenth century as a medical plant. 125 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: For example, James Meece who published one of the first 126 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: known recipes for tomato ketchup around the year eighteen twelve. 127 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: He was a medical graduate of the University of Pennsylvania, 128 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: and he wrote about how he was familiar with the 129 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: culinary use of tomatoes from French immigrants, who were probably 130 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: Creole refugees from Haiti. But beginning in the eighteen twenties, 131 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: American physicians started to talk about tomatoes as a cure 132 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: for what they called at the time billious diseases. These 133 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: would be diseases that were associated with disorders of the 134 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: liver or bile, which apparently sort of became a catch 135 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: all category for diseases involving jaundice, naza, and vomiting along 136 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: with fever. You know, if there's something wrong with your guts, 137 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: they thought you had some kind of bile problem. Smith 138 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: gives a number of examples. One is a doctor Horatio 139 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: Gates Spafford, who wrote in the New York Farmer Quote 140 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: that tomato sauce removed headaches, a bad taste in the mouth, 141 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: straightness of the chest, painful heaviness in the liver, and 142 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: improved the action of the bowels. So hey, that's an 143 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: all in one. Yeah. But probably the single largest influence 144 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: on the tomatoes image as a promoter of good health 145 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: was a man named Dr John Cook Bennett. Robert I 146 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: have attached a sketch of him, and I noticed he 147 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: he really kind of looks a little bit like Adam Scott, 148 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: but in a strange military uniform with epaulets and the sword. Yeah, 149 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: I can see that Adam Scott. I also see a 150 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: little bit of of of Grand mof Tarke in here, 151 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like a combination of the two 152 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 1: for me. Absolute lutely so. Bennett lived from eighteen o 153 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: four to eighteen sixty seven, and he's actually probably best 154 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: known for his short tenure as an associate of Joseph 155 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: Smith and an early leader of the Latter Day Saints 156 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: movement also known as the Mormons. Before all that, Bennett 157 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: was a doctor who Andrew Smith claims founded one of 158 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: the first medical diploma mills in US history, so he's 159 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: a diploma mill pioneer. Apparently, Bennett would go around the 160 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: Midwest selling medical degrees for ten bucks apiece, and I'm 161 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: sure that created some awesome doctors, but it seems some 162 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: people didn't really like that practice. He fell under some 163 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: criticism for for selling degrees like that, so instead he 164 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: accepted a position as a professor of midwifery at Willoughby 165 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: Medical College of Lake Erie University in Ohio, where he 166 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: jumped decisively onto the tomato train. This would have been 167 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: in the early to mid eighteen thirties, and Smith writes 168 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: as follows quote. In his introductory lecture at Willoughby, Bennett 169 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: declared that tomatoes successfully treated diarrhea, violent bilious attacks, and 170 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: dyspepsia or indigestion. He recommended that tomatoes replace calamel because 171 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: they were less harmful, predicting that quote, a chemical extract 172 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: will probably soon be obtained from it, which will altogether 173 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: supersede the use of calamel in the cure of diseases. 174 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: Tomatoes were also good for citizens traveling to the west 175 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: or to the South, as tomatoes would quote save them 176 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: from the danger attendant upon those violent bilious attacks to 177 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: which almost all unacclimated persons are liable. So basically saying 178 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: like travel diarrhea, right, I think so, I'm not quite 179 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: sure what so is. Was there an idea at the 180 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: time that if you go to the south or the west, 181 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: you're gonna have bilious attacks? I've never heard of that before, 182 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: but oh yeah, travel diarrhea would make sense as an interpretation. 183 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: But hey, just each year tomatoes, you know, drink some 184 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: tomato sauce on the train and you'll be right as right. Uh. 185 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: To continue with with Smith's paragraph here, quote Bennett urged 186 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: all citizens to eat tomatoes raw, cooked, or in ketchup, 187 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: as they were quote the most healthy article of all 188 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: the material alimentary. Bennett included recipes for tomato sauce, fried tomatoes, 189 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: tomato pickles, tomato ketchup, and eating raw tomatoes. I don't 190 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: know what the recipe for eating raw tomatoes is, but uh, 191 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: to go back to earlier, So, so Bennett is setting 192 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: tomatoes up as a foil to this substance called calamel. 193 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: And this reference to calamel here. Calumel was a mineral 194 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: form of mercury chloride that was widely used as medicine 195 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, even though nobody was quite sure 196 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: how it was supposed to work. Apparently, primarily what it 197 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: did was it was what they called a purgative, basically 198 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: a laxative um. But it would also cause mercury poisoning, 199 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: and it tended to kill the tissue of the mouth 200 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 1: and gums. So they're all these stories of people taking 201 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: calamel and like their teeth becoming loose and their mouths 202 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: kind of rotting, And even into the twentieth century, alarmingly, 203 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: calumel powder was used as a as a powder to 204 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: be applied to children's gums as they were teething and 205 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: led to these horrible conditions as a result. Benjamin Rush, 206 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: you know, the physician and one of the so called 207 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: founding fathers, he was a big fan of calamel and 208 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: promoted it. I think he even tried to give some 209 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: to Alexander Hamilton's at some point. Calumel is just terrible medicine, 210 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: extremely worth replacing with something else. For example, calumel was 211 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: often used to treat dysentery, but as a diuretic itself, 212 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: it could speed up the dehydration process. So as you 213 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: already have dysenterry, you're also taking a laxative and this 214 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: this actually did kill some people. So yeah, So this 215 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: is definitely an example of a so called medicine that 216 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: is not only it's not just doing nothing, it is 217 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: it is actively heaping more harm on top of whatever 218 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: you're trying to treat. Yeah, I mean, I guess I 219 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: can't verify that it was never doing anything useful, but 220 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: I think it's absolutely clear that if it was doing 221 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: anything beneficial at all, the side effects were far worse 222 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: than whatever it was trying to treat. Yeah, And like other, 223 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: you know, mercury based things, I think it was just 224 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: generally used as a cure all. It was a panacea 225 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: of the time. And anything that is supposed to cure 226 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: everything probably cures nothing. So anyway, Bennett is offering up 227 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,239 Speaker 1: tomatoes as an alternative to calamel. He's saying, hey, tomatoes 228 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: can do all the stuff that calamel does, accept it 229 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: without all the side effects. And so Bennett was on 230 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 1: the tomato train. He was soon forced out of his professorship, 231 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: but he did not give up on his tomato crusade, 232 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: and in eighteen thirty five, He repeated the claims of 233 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: his to Aato Panacey a lecture in dozens of outlets. 234 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: He wrote letters forwarding his address to farming and horticultural magazines, 235 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: to household magazines, um. And he also wrote to other 236 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: influential Americans to convince them of his claims, including somebody 237 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: named Constantine Rafinesque who was a medical botanist and who 238 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: promoted a lot of diet based cures. So he got 239 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: some followers. Other medical authorities, or at least people who 240 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: were somewhat perceived as such, jumped on the tomato train 241 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: with him. Uh. So, I just wanted to list a 242 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: couple more of Bennett's other interesting tomato claims, as as 243 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: relayed by Andrew F. Smith. First of all, he said 244 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: that he had studied all of the ancient texts and 245 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: he his studies proved conclusively that there was nowhere on 246 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: Earth where the tomato was not indigenous. This was not true. Yeah, yeah, 247 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: we we we I think we we properly debunked that 248 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: notion in the first episode. Uh. He also attacked the 249 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: process of of steaking tomatoes. So, Robert, You've got tomatoes 250 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: growing in your yard right now, right? What what do 251 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: you do to to get the vines standing upright, Oh, 252 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: you have to use like a metal cage and um. 253 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: And then as that they grow more and more gigantic, 254 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: you end up or at least we have to end 255 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: up reinforcing that, and and they see and if if 256 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: you're not totally on top of it, you'll still end 257 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: up with the vines falling onto the ground and tomatoes 258 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: just sitting there on the ground. Right. So most people 259 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: who grow tomatoes today they staked them in some way. 260 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: You put like a structure up and you allow the 261 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: vine to hang on that off in a metal cage 262 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: or a stick of some kind. But Bennett opposed steaking 263 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: because he claimed it was against God and against nature, 264 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: and that God had intended for tomato vines to lie 265 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: on the ground. If God had meant for them to 266 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: be steaked, he would have had them stand up on 267 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: their own. Though I think Ben it might be confused 268 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: about the fact that the tomato, of course, being a 269 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: cultivated fruit that was sort of created by humans in 270 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: a way, the original natural form of the tomato is 271 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: a tiny berry, you know, It's not this big, heavy, 272 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: juicy thing that we eat today. Yeah. Yeah, the the 273 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: fruit of the modern tomato. It's especially it's larger forms. 274 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's gigantic, it's swollen, it's breaking apart 275 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: with its own juices, you know, and it's ultimately quite 276 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: impressive the amount of biomass that these things produce enough 277 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: to wear. You know, when you first stake up that 278 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: tomato plant or or put a cage around it, you're like, oh, man, 279 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: this feels like overkill. But then a month two months later, 280 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: and uh, and whatever structure you raised might be struggling 281 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: to keep all of that stuff up in the air. Yeah, 282 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: it turns into a precarious tower of juice. Yes. Should 283 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: we take a quick break before we come back to 284 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: discuss Spinnett's encounter with the LDS Church. Let's do it. Alright, 285 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: we're back. We're talking about tomatoes as a miracle or 286 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: that for just about anything that at the very least 287 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: was a preferable cure all to a calamel, which was 288 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 1: a dangerous mercury based cure. All right. Uh, And this 289 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: claim was being made in the eighteen thirties by this 290 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 1: doctor named John Cook Bennett. Now we talked about how 291 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 1: he started making all these claims about tomatoes and their 292 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: supposed health benefits and curative properties. Apparently, in eighteen forty, 293 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: after he'd been making these tomato claims for a while, 294 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: he was working in Illinois and Bennett got involved with 295 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: the Latter Day Saints movement. He became friends with its 296 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: leader Joseph Smith, and his claims about the health benefits 297 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: of tomatoes actually proved influential within the church. But tragedy struck, 298 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: and in eighteen forty two Bennett got excommunicated from the 299 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: Latter Day Saints movement. He was excommunicated by Joseph Smith 300 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: himself after some kind of ambiguous scandal and involving a 301 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: bunch of alleged sexual impropriety, including adultery and maybe some 302 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: kind of unsanctioned polygamy, with what Smith viewed as as 303 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: dubious spiritual or revelatory justifications. After Bennett was banished from 304 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: the church, he sort of went ballistic on Joseph Smith 305 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: and then published a bunch of allegations against him in return. 306 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: I think he actually accused Smith of murder and fraud 307 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: and a bunch of other things, and then the two 308 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: just win at each other in a full scale pr 309 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: war Joseph Smith versus John Cook Bennett. But the interesting 310 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: thing was, apparently this pr war did not undermine uh 311 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: the the Latter Day Saints movements fondness for tomatoes and 312 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 1: acceptance of their ideas of the health benefits that had 313 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: come from Bennett. So Bennett's claims proved very popular, and 314 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 1: they caught on and were repeated in lots of cookbooks, 315 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: household manuals, farming and gardening journals, and even in Latter 316 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: Day Saints literature. Uh and so, so there was this 317 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: whole tomato for health craze that caught on big in 318 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: the eighteen thirties and continued into the eighteen forties. And 319 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: uh Andrew F. Smith points out that whatever his possibly 320 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: dubious medical or moral credentials, Bennett was a genuinely very 321 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: talented promoter. It seems like he probably could have been 322 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: great in the twentieth century in an advertising and marketing context, 323 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: and that this contributed significantly to the popularization and normalization 324 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: of tomatoes in the United States. Uh So, Bennett eventually 325 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: predicted that you know you're you're gonna be able in 326 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: the future to get the health benefits of tomatoes without 327 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 1: even having to eat a tomato. You can just take 328 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: a miracle pill that will be made from a from 329 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: a tomato extract. And this prediction actually came true. In 330 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty five, a doctor A. J. Holcomb of Glassboro, Alabama, 331 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: started producing pills made out of a tomato extra act, 332 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: and other pills also came on the market. Smith quotes 333 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: advertising for one brand of tomato pills from a doctor 334 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: named Dr Miles, and it goes like this, The tomato 335 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: used as an article of refection is highly medical, highly medical, 336 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: and doubtless prevents many bilious attacks. We inferred from this 337 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: fact the possibility of preparing from it a medicine of 338 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: great virtue. Dr Miles and his associates have spent years 339 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 1: and fortunes we understand and experimenting, and finally have produced 340 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: the compound extract. It has been used by many in 341 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 1: the city and out of it, and is as near 342 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: we can learn, generally approve. But then I thought this 343 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: was interesting. Apparently, so Smith's sites some of the other 344 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: packaging copy, and some of this copy attacks calamel directly. 345 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: So it says, for example, humane physicians deplore the sad 346 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: evils resulting from the murph curial practice. And remember this 347 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: because calamel is mercury chloride, and we'll gladly hail the 348 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: introduction of an article that can safely be substituted for calamel. 349 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 1: And it goes on about how people just know in 350 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: their hearts that mercury is bad, even if they can't 351 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: explain why. Um, and that you may have to choose 352 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: between two evils of having of taking mercury or having 353 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: a torpid liver. But now they're saying, hey, you don't 354 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: have to have a torpid liver and you don't have 355 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: to take mercury. You can fight your torpid liver with 356 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: tomato pills. Well, that would certainly be ideal if you 357 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: wanted to consume the medicinal essence of tomatoes out of 358 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: outside of tomato season. Oh yeah, I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, 359 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: you wouldn't. You wouldn't have to go through eating a 360 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 1: mealy one in the winter if you wanted to fight 361 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: your torpid liver. Um. But but I will say that so, 362 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: while I think the tomato pill probably had very little 363 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: actual medical merit, especially for the billiest disease eas is 364 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: that they were said to counteract, it seems to me 365 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: that simply by being offered as an alternative to calamel. 366 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: Tomato pills or just tomatoes might have done significant medical 367 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: good just because calamel was so bad. Like, so, if 368 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: you're taking something that does nothing instead of taking calamel 369 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: and getting mercury poisoning and gangrenous flesh and rotting gums 370 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: and all that, that that actually does seem like an upgrade, 371 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: even though this is probably not useful as medicine. Plus 372 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: there's a hint of tomato to it, so it's got 373 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: that going for it. Oh yeah, I mean I wonder 374 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,479 Speaker 1: if you, you know, if you're actually eating any tomato flesh, 375 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: I wonder if if you could get some placebo effect 376 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: just from the fact that it tastes nice. Maybe not, 377 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: I don't know, that might be reaching, but anyway, it's 378 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: still the placebo effect is powerful. So I mean, that's 379 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: that's always going to be a part of any of 380 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: these considerations. Oh absolutely, I mean that that might be 381 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: something that was at work in calamel and in tomato 382 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: and tomato pills, except uh, you know, the tomatoes aren't 383 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: full of mercury um. So it seems that some of 384 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: the attacks against tomato pills did not make the accurate 385 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 1: charge that or at least I would guess what is accurate, 386 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 1: which is that they probably just didn't do much, but 387 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: instead accused them of, say, being inferior to calamel and effectiveness. 388 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: And there were some that accused tomatoes and tomato pills 389 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: of bringing on implausible side effects, side effects I would 390 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: judge to be very implausible. For example, uh Andrew Smith 391 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: cites one dctor dio Lewis, who was a popular lecturer 392 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 1: and a practitioner of homeopathy, who claimed to who claimed 393 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: that the use of tomatoes and their extract would cause 394 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: quote piles tender and bleeding gums, teeth set on edge, 395 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: and loss of teeth due to salivation, which which sounds 396 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: closer to the actual effects of calamel. But anyway, despite 397 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: these attacks, tomato pills proved very popular, and by eighteen forties, 398 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: Smith notes that tomato extract was listed as an ingredient 399 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: in lots of supposed panacea is even pills that weren't 400 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: just tomato pills. You know, you know this is doctor 401 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: Doctor Rotten Bottoms, you know, excellent cure all that would 402 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: list tomato extract as one of the ingredients, and this 403 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: gave rise at the time to the slogan tomato pills 404 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: will cure all your ills. There you go, at rhymes. 405 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: Can't argue with that, right, uh. And just as an 406 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: interesting side note, Smith includes a few other bizarre claims 407 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: made against tomatoes, including one accusation. This is from the 408 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: later nineteenth century, so not the eighteen forties period we're 409 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: talking about now, but later in the century there was 410 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 1: a doctor John Hilton who reported that quote, tomato cells 411 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: were identical to cancer cells under the microscope, and that 412 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: there was much cancer were tomato those were eaten. This 413 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: does not appear to be true in any way. That 414 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: sounds real. This This sounds like when um Chancellor Palpatine 415 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 1: is telling Anakin that the the Jedi and the Sith 416 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: they're virtually alike in every way. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, And 417 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: I wonder like, did this guy owned stock in a 418 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: Calumel company. Yeah, But anyway, by the mid eighteen hundreds, 419 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: basically at this point, there's no going back, like tomatoes 420 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: had become thoroughly uh normalized and a universally profitable crop 421 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: pretty much in a mainstay of American dining tables. So 422 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: just over the course of a few decades. Really, Smith 423 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: makes the case that even though the the health craze 424 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: for tomatoes was probably somewhat baseless or at least you 425 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: know that if if there are health benefits to tomatoes, 426 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: it wasn't exactly the benefits that these people were claiming, um, 427 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: but that this health craze did help cement tomatoes as 428 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: a universe, silly accepted, and extremely popular food in America 429 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: and counteract some of the lingering concerns that might have 430 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 1: been present among some people about their toxicity. Yeah, if 431 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: you're gonna basically, if you're gonna take up some sort 432 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: of crazy new diet or some sort of weird medication, 433 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: it's better that it's not actual actually poison, right. Yes. Now. 434 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: On the other hand, on the subject of the health 435 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: benefits of tomatoes, it is worth pointing out that there 436 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 1: are nutrients present in tomatoes that have been investigated as 437 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: possibly beneficial to health. Just one major example is lycopene. 438 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: Likecopene is a carotenoid that serves as a pigment, giving 439 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: the tomato it's pinkish reddish color. Uh. And there are 440 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: other carotenoid pigments that are nutritionally relevant. For example, beta carotene, 441 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: the pigment that gives carrots and some of their vegetables 442 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: their orange color that gets metabolized in the body and 443 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: turns into vitamin A, which is of course a an 444 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: essential nutrient. So dietary carotenoids are very important for supplying 445 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,959 Speaker 1: the body with compounds that it can't synthesize internally. And 446 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: there's long been a debate in the scientific literature about 447 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: what the health benefits of tomatoes and specifically lycopine might be. 448 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: So I was trying to check and see if there 449 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: was a good literature review and meta analysis of of 450 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: all the studies out there on on the possible effects 451 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: of lycopine um the health effects of lycopine, and I 452 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 1: found an article from seventeen published in the journal Atherosclerosis 453 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: by Chang at All called Tomato and Lycopine Supplementation and 454 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: Cardiovascular Risk Factors a systemic review and meta analysis, and 455 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: essentially the authors here found that quote consuming tomato and 456 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: tomato products is associated with potential beneficial effects to health. 457 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: Current evidence indicates that consuming tomato improves some blood lipids, 458 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:02,719 Speaker 1: blood pressure, and endothelial function. Tomato consumption may potentially reduce 459 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: the risk of cardiovascular diseases and mortality and finally, the 460 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: effects of consuming tomato on novel bio markers of vascular 461 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: risk needs further investigation. So, uh, it seems like, unfortunately, 462 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: like many things studies into the health effects of food, 463 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: there have been a lot of conflicting results over the years, 464 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: so the picture is not always totally clear. But it 465 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: looks like, on balance, the existing research indicates there probably 466 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: are some good health effects that follow from consumption of lycopine, 467 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: a tomato product, and tomatoes in general, and a lot 468 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: of it has to do with cardiovascular health and blood 469 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: lipids things like that. Well, it's it's no it should 470 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: come as no surprise that not only can you still 471 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: buy tomato pills from a number of different um companies, 472 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: you can also buy lycopene supplements from just about everybody 473 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: who is in the business of making supplements. Right, Well, 474 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: I would say, based on the thing, on the study 475 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: that I decided, we are not advising you to go 476 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: out and buy lycope based supplements. You know, that's the 477 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: kind of thing. Consult with your doctor about that. But 478 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: it looks like, on balance it's probably more likely than 479 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: not that lycopene does something beneficial in a cardiovascular sense. 480 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: But anyway, to come back to the report by Andrew F. Smith. 481 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: One of the things that he cites, I I don't 482 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: have this quote pulled out, but I remember he cites 483 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: a doctor writing in the late eighteen hundreds who said, look, 484 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: you know, all these claims about how the tomatoes affect 485 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: the liver and the bile and all that there, they 486 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: probably have no basis in reality. But just go ahead 487 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: and eat tomatoes because they're delicious. You don't need to 488 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: consult your liver doctor. Just fed them. Oh but Robert, 489 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: I have a question as we transition to our to 490 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: our next little segment here a question that I wonder 491 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: if you have thoughts on or if your your house 492 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: adheres to a set of conventional wisdom about, And that 493 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: question is should you ever refrigerate a tomato? We are 494 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: a non refrigeration house for tomatoes. Now. I don't think 495 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: this is a rule that I knew about or had 496 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: propably learned earlier in my life, but it was one 497 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: that my wife knew, and so it's it's one we've 498 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: stuck to that that that tomatoes they go out on 499 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: the counter or by the window. They do not go 500 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: in the refrigerator, though Occasionally we'll get like I say, 501 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: I do subscribe to a particular boxed meal company, and 502 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: they'll send the ingredients in a bag, and I'll generally 503 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: just stick that bag in the refrigerator, and sometimes it 504 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: has tomatoes in there, and so the tomatoes will wind 505 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: up being refrigerated. But like we said earlier, those are 506 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: you know, shipped grocery store tomatoes, so perhaps nothing all 507 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: that wonderful is lost in their being in the fridge. 508 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: But then again, I don't have any I don't have 509 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: any science backing any of this up. This is just 510 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: the way, This is the way, and that's what we do. Well, 511 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,959 Speaker 1: that's how so much kitchen knowledge is, isn't it? Like 512 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: canonical kitchen wisdom is full of these rules that you 513 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: have no idea whether they have any basis in fact. 514 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: Maybe they're informed by good empirical scientific research or by 515 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: by real experience, or maybe they're just a hunch some 516 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: chef had a hundred years ago and it's been repeated 517 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: from chef to chef ever since. Yeah. Yeah, Like ultimately, 518 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: I don't know. It could be that if you keep 519 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,479 Speaker 1: the tomatoes out on the countertop, it will keep demons 520 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: out of your house that that could be the excuse 521 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: as far as I know. Uh yeah, I mean it 522 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: could be one of those things like ceiling in the juices. 523 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: You know, like this totally not true that searing meat 524 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: seals in the juices. I mean, you know, searing meatmates 525 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: taste better. The ceiling in the juices is not real. 526 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: But it does make me think of one of my 527 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: favorite Onion headlines of all time, which was it was 528 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: something like, uh, study finds average father thinks about ceiling 529 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: in the juices four to five hours a day. Um. 530 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: You know, this question reminds me a little bit of 531 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: our our invention interview with Jeff Beach bone Berry and 532 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: I believe you asked the question about uh, lemon and 533 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: lime juice, in particular about fresh squeze lime juice, and 534 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: he mentioned that some mixologists argue that it's better if 535 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: the lime juice has been squeezed but then placed in 536 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: the refrigerator for a certain amount of time, for a 537 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: short period. I think he said that, like some mixologists 538 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: think that the line like citrus juice is better after 539 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: being refrigerated for like a day or something like that, 540 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: but then after after that it starts getting bad. You'll 541 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: have to go back to that invention interview to to 542 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: to hear the exact numbers, but it was something in 543 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: that ballpark. But anyway, so to bring it back to tomatoes, 544 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: for a long time, the conventional wisdom has been to 545 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: go right along with your household rule. Uh, it's that 546 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: you never put a raw tomato in the fridge. It 547 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: ruins the fresh tomato flavor, It turns the text you're 548 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: meally that you know, the chefs would just say never 549 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: ever do it. And it turns out there's actually been 550 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: a lot of research on this. Uh. So I'm gonna 551 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: try to give you the basic rundown as best I 552 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: can and summarizing some of the work of other people. So, 553 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: first of all, it is true that there are some 554 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: measurable chemical changes that take place when a tomato is 555 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: stored at fridge temperature for a number of days instead 556 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: of at room temperature. Just one example, as a study 557 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: by Jong at All published in Proceedings of the National 558 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: Academy of Sciences in called chilling induced tomato flavor loss 559 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: is associated with altered volatile synthesis and transient changes in 560 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: DNA methylation. And so basically what they found is if 561 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: you take a tomato, you pick it, and then you 562 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: chill it for a week or so, and then you 563 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: compare that to a fresh pick tomato. The sugar and 564 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: acid content will mostly be unchanged, but there will be 565 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: a marked decline in what they call certain flavor and 566 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: aroma compounds. These are volatile molecules that are responsible for 567 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: a lot of the distinctive tomato we smell and taste. 568 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: And they determine that this happened because when you take 569 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: a tomato and you pluck it and you store it 570 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: in cold storage for a week or whatever, this causes 571 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: a down regulation in the expression of specific genes in 572 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: the tomatoes cells. And this this down regulation of these 573 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: genes slows or halts the production of these flavor and 574 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: aroma compounds. And one of the authors, Harry J. Clee, 575 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,240 Speaker 1: speaking to The New York Times, explain their findings as follows. Quote, 576 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: remove the violins and the wood winds, you still have noise, 577 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: but it's not the same. Add back just the violins, 578 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: and it still isn't right. You need that orchestra of 579 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: thirty or more chemicals in the right balance to give 580 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: you a good tomato that's nice and I think, you know, 581 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,959 Speaker 1: there's something to that, Like the rapturous experience of eating 582 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: a really good tomato is this complex combination of kind 583 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: of like earthy, grassy, juicy, you know, mells and tastes 584 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: that all come together, as as the sort of accents 585 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: on the basic flavors of sweetness and sourness and savoriness 586 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: that are there in the tomatoes flesh. But there are 587 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: some serious reasons for not just taking that research and 588 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,959 Speaker 1: then running straight to the conclusion. Okay, then never put 589 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: your tomato in the refrigerator, because this study is looking 590 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: at sort of one narrow question and one narrow type 591 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: of comparison. So, first of all, if you're buying a 592 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: tomato with the grocery store, that tomato has almost definitely 593 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: already been chilled for some time during transport and storage. 594 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: Because if you think for a minute about the brute 595 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: physical necessities of the food supply chain, uh, and you 596 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 1: think about the delicacy of an actually ripe tomato, how 597 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: would how would you harvest actually ripe tomatoes at scale 598 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: and then pack them and ship them to their destinations. 599 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: I mean, you couldn't do it. A truck or even 600 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: a crate packed full of plump, ripe tomatoes would just 601 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: be this slurry of moldy pulp by the time it 602 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 1: got where it was going, right, Yeah, yeah, I mean 603 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: your your tomatoes are likely coming from California or Florida. 604 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: I think Indiana and Ohio are also up there in 605 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: the top five. Yeah. So often the large scale tomato 606 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: agriculture involves harvesting tomatoes that are still relatively hard and 607 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: green and then packing them in cold storage and exposing 608 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: them to ethylene gas under cold storage, which is a 609 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: gas that's naturally produced by lots of fruits as they ripen, 610 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: but exposure to the gas causes ripening in the storage 611 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: after they've been picked, and that's how the tomatoes turn red. Uh, 612 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: you know, to be read when you buy them at 613 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: the grocery store. Now, a lot of people are going 614 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,760 Speaker 1: to say that this process is one reason why tomatoes 615 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: you get at the grocery store or often extremely inferior 616 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: to tomatoes that you would get at a farmer's market 617 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: or that you would grow yourself or get from a 618 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: friend's garden. That the process is just totally different in 619 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: terms of the flavor and texture that it produces when 620 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: compared to a tomato that actually ripens on the vine. 621 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: And some of these same concerns driving the supply and 622 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: transport process have also driven the selection of particular tomato 623 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: cultivars that are not necessarily the best to eat, because 624 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: when a farmer is selecting what breed of tomato to grow, 625 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,720 Speaker 1: they don't only have to consider what's going to taste 626 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: the best to the consumer. They have to consider what 627 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: can I actually get to the buyer intact? Yeah, exactly, 628 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: it needs to survive the journey and and and look 629 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 1: like something that the the the customer will actually purchase 630 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: on the other end. Right, But if you're able to 631 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: get your hands on an unrefrigerated tomato out of a 632 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: garden or maybe at a farmer's market or something. Uh. 633 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 1: The authors here of this paper at least they recommend 634 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: not storing it in the fridge before you eat it 635 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: if you want peak tomato rapture. And that advice might 636 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 1: be good advice, But there are a number of researchers 637 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 1: who would say that this type of answer is actually 638 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: looking at the question a little too narrowly and in 639 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: a way that's not always useful to the actual tomato consumer. 640 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: For example, there are a couple of really great in 641 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: depth explorations of this question on the Serious Eats website 642 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: by Daniel Gritzer and Kenji Lopez Alt, and they did 643 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: a couple of investigations over this over the past few years, 644 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: and so they did controlled experiments with blind taste tests 645 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,720 Speaker 1: on multiple ways of storing tomatoes, refrigerated, unrefrigerated, for different 646 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: periods of time and so forth, and they concluded that basically, yes, 647 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: the absolute pinnacle tomato experience is probably letting the tomato 648 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: ripen on the vine then eating it immediately at its 649 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 1: moment of peak ripeness with no refrigeration on the vine, 650 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: like like a goat man, with the juice flowing down 651 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: your chest. Don't use your hands at all, just face. Yes. 652 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: But but but they say, you know, most of the time, 653 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: that's not how you're going to be eating a tomato. Uh. 654 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: And they've in out that letting a tomato go past 655 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: its point of peak ripeness is also very bad for 656 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,280 Speaker 1: flavor and texture, and in fact, we'll ruin the flavor 657 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: and texture significantly more than refrigerating the tomato will. And 658 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: also a lot of times they taste testers didn't even 659 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: notice all that big of a difference between a tomato 660 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 1: that had been refrigerated and one that hadn't. It seemed 661 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: to vary, so they came up with a set of guidelines. 662 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: They go like this, if your tomato has never been refrigerated, 663 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: you know, so it's out of somebody's yard or a 664 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: good farmer's market seller or something like that, then you 665 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,240 Speaker 1: want to store it at room temperature until it's ripe, 666 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: and then either eat it immediately or put it in 667 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: the fridge, and then you take it out of the 668 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,720 Speaker 1: fridge when you're ready to eat. And of course storing 669 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: it in the fridge will allow it to stay at 670 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: peak ripeness longer than it would store it at room temperature. 671 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,919 Speaker 1: But they do say it's important if you have refrigerated 672 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: a tomato, let it come up to room temperature before 673 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: you eat it, because eating a cold tomato is not 674 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,720 Speaker 1: very pleasant. That's good, that's good. But then the second 675 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: half of this is if your tomato has already been refrigerated, 676 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 1: and this would apply to almost any tomato you would 677 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: get it a grocery store or any kind of mass 678 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: agricultural vendor. In that case, if it's already ripe, put 679 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: it in the fridge until you're ready to eat it. 680 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: If it's not ripe yet, let it ripen at room temperature. 681 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 1: Then once it's ripe, move it to the fridge until 682 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: you're ready to eat it, and once again let it 683 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: come up to room temper before you actually put it 684 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: in your mouth. And I think I really respect the 685 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: work they put in on coming up with these guidelines, 686 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: and uh, thus saith the Lord. Okay, I got a 687 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 1: second tomato storage trick, also confirmed through empirical testing by 688 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: Kenji Lopez Ald. So you know how tomatoes often lose 689 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,359 Speaker 1: juiciness and partially desiccate as they sit out and rest. 690 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,919 Speaker 1: You you've probably seen them, like on the tops near 691 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 1: where the stem is, they'll get kind of wrinkly and 692 00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: start to sages. This is partially due to moist you're 693 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: evaporating out of the tomato as it rests now. The 694 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 1: skin of the tomato is actually very good at keeping 695 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: moisture in, but the weak point is actually the stem area, 696 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: a little depression where the tomato connected to the vine. 697 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,720 Speaker 1: And so there's an easy way to prevent moisture escaping 698 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: through this area, and it is to store tomatoes upside 699 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: down on a flat surface, so the stem area is 700 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: sort of sealed off by the by the soft flesh 701 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 1: of the tomato around it. Or in fact, if you 702 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: want to go farther, you can even do what Kinji 703 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: did to test this theory about where the moisture evaporates from. 704 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 1: He shows in a video that he put a little 705 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 1: piece of tape over the stem depression to seal it off, 706 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: and this also kept the tomato from losing juice over time. 707 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: So if you want your tomatoes to stay ju see 708 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 1: a storm upside down, or or maybe even give them 709 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: a little little sealed hat. All right, all right, on 710 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: that note, we're going to take a quick break, but 711 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: when we come back we will explore the topic of 712 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:09,280 Speaker 1: off world tomatoes. Thank alright, we're back. So at this point, 713 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,240 Speaker 1: tomatoes a spread pretty much everywhere. As Michael Pollen pointed 714 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 1: out in his book Cooked, the tomato is perhaps the 715 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 1: most important vegetable crop in the world, with onions coming 716 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: in second. As we discussed in our invention episode about 717 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: Ketchup the culinary invention of Ketchup, so Europeans tried to 718 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 1: recreate Asian sauces with an imported fruit from the America's 719 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: and then this weird concoction eventually returns to Asia as well. 720 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: I was reading an article titled Tomatoes and Chinese Cooking 721 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: by Rhonda Parkinson for the Spruce Eat site, and the 722 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 1: author mentions that even though tomatoes only arrived in China 723 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,399 Speaker 1: roughly a hundred to a hundred fifty years ago, they've 724 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: managed to carve out their own niche in certain Chinese cuisines, 725 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: much in the same way that chili peppers have found 726 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,720 Speaker 1: a home in numerous Asian cuisines. Examples of popular dishes, 727 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: and I don't think I've had any of these, but 728 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: it was interesting to these were pointed out. One is 729 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,720 Speaker 1: tomato egg drop soup, and the other is a dish 730 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: called tomato beef, which is apparently a stir fry with 731 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,880 Speaker 1: thick tomato wedges, like really big thick pieces beef added. 732 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: And then oyster sauce. Oh, that sounds like a delicious 733 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: umami bomb. Of course, because a lot of natural Asian 734 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,920 Speaker 1: flavorings are are big umami bombs, like soy sauce or 735 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: oyster sauce. They bring a lot of the glutamate based flavors, 736 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,359 Speaker 1: but tomatoes are also rich imglutamates and have that rich 737 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,880 Speaker 1: eu mammy flavor. So yeah, that sounds like a savory delight. 738 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,279 Speaker 1: It's interesting to to contemplate this kind of thing too, 739 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: where tomatoes are recent enough um arrival in Chinese cuisine 740 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 1: that they haven't completely they still have you know, they're 741 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 1: still completely taken over or anything like that. But but 742 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,320 Speaker 1: looking at where they're utilized first, like where are the 743 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,440 Speaker 1: successes for the tomato as opposed to some thing like 744 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 1: um Italian cuisine, which it really can be kind of 745 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 1: difficult to imagine for for many of us anyway, to 746 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,280 Speaker 1: imagine something like Italian cuisine without the tomato, right, because 747 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,799 Speaker 1: that's where a lot of our minds immediately go. Yeah. Well, 748 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,800 Speaker 1: I would say that's especially true of like Italian American cuisine, 749 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 1: Like a lot of the Italian dishes that became especially 750 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: popular among Italian Americans were tomato forward. Yeah. So here's 751 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 1: a big question. If tomatoes have essentially taken over our planet, 752 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: my tomatoes go beyond being a mere international sensation. Could 753 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,839 Speaker 1: they become an interplanetary sensation? Yes, the answer is yes. 754 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,240 Speaker 1: When the aliens get here, they're gonna we're gonna be like, oh, 755 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 1: thank you for coming to like uplift our society and 756 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: share your technology, and they're like, get out of the way. 757 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 1: We're here for your tomatoes, We're here for the golden apples. Yes. 758 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: So a lot of this come back to the basic question, 759 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 1: all right, if we're you know, we've discussed before a 760 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of very intelligent people have argued 761 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,840 Speaker 1: that the long term survival of the human race depends 762 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: on us branching out and establishing ourselves in other worlds. 763 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 1: But part of establishing ourselves in other worlds means first 764 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,800 Speaker 1: of all, just being able to survive there, being able 765 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 1: to eat there, and then ultimately being able to survive 766 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,440 Speaker 1: there there in a way where we're not reliant upon 767 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: a robust supply chain from Earth. The cost of getting 768 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: the food into orbit alone is already incredibly high, compounded 769 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: then by the cost of getting it the rest of 770 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 1: the way, for example, to a lunar colony or to 771 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: a Martian colony. That means you're gonna have to grow 772 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,399 Speaker 1: your food at your lunar or Martian colony, uh, at 773 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 1: least to supplement um costly deliveries, if not sustain colonists completely. 774 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,400 Speaker 1: Oh boy, I can't wait to subsist entirely on a 775 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 1: diet of like protein that's created from algae and incubators. 776 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: I'll remember in the Silent Running that's just what Bruce 777 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: Dern's crewmates were happy with. They're like, oh, this is great, 778 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 1: these cubes of of of of whatever. You know, that 779 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,600 Speaker 1: grown strangeness is perfectly fine. Meanwhile, he's holding like a 780 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 1: cultivated banana, like the strangest product of modern agricultural science, 781 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: and he's like, this is nature, all right. So obviously 782 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,520 Speaker 1: there are a number of possibilities here, including what you 783 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 1: just mentioned, like figuring out like what what grows the 784 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: best that we could possibly eat, and let's make that 785 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,359 Speaker 1: be our diet um. But you know, basically, I guess 786 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,400 Speaker 1: the first possibility that comes to mind in terms of 787 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,239 Speaker 1: like growing things in another world is that we just 788 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: bring everything with us. Right, Certainly, we need to bring 789 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,920 Speaker 1: the seeds, But then when you get into the issue 790 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,880 Speaker 1: of water and soil, things get a bit difficult because again, 791 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 1: the cost of even bringing this stuff into orbit is 792 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 1: so high. Right, So, on one hand, we could potentially 793 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 1: go the way of hydroponics and grow with out soil. Uh, 794 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 1: that's one less thing we'd have to bring up with us, right, 795 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,799 Speaker 1: and perhaps we'd even be able to make use of 796 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 1: local water. In fact, a paper by Elgin and Union 797 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 1: published in the Bulleton of the American Astronomical Society argues 798 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 1: that hydroponics might be our best option. And I'll share 799 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,600 Speaker 1: more on on their argument here in a bit. But 800 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,319 Speaker 1: what about lunar or martian soil? What's preventing us from 801 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 1: growing our crops just in that stuff? You know? Hey, 802 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 1: there is there is there dirt on Mars? Is there 803 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,799 Speaker 1: dirt on the moon? Why don't I just grow some 804 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 1: tomatoes in that? Okay? I guess a major problem would 805 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,839 Speaker 1: be the lack of moisture, but there may be other 806 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 1: problems as well. Well. All right, yeah, so I guess that. 807 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: Think of it this way. It's like, if you're bringing water, 808 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,880 Speaker 1: you're bringing seeds. Could you just go out get a 809 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 1: big bucket load of of Martian or lunar regular, bring 810 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 1: that inside. Uh, adds seeds, add water, and enjoy your 811 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 1: your bumper crop. I don't know. Actually that's a very 812 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 1: good question. Uh. The answer is no. But it becomes 813 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,720 Speaker 1: then a question of what could you do to the soil? 814 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 1: And uh, And on this subject, I was looking at 815 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,880 Speaker 1: another paper. This is the twenty nineteen paper titled Crop 816 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,680 Speaker 1: Growth and Viability of Seeds on Mars and Moon soil 817 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,760 Speaker 1: simulants by Fame link at All published in Open Agriculture, 818 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,880 Speaker 1: and basically the paper sets out to consider whether martian 819 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,280 Speaker 1: or lunar regular could be used to grow crops. Now. 820 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,239 Speaker 1: First of all, on the hydroponics front, the authors here 821 00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,399 Speaker 1: argue that while hydroponics is certainly promising, you still need 822 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:40,160 Speaker 1: a growing medium. For instance, mineral wool is often used. 823 00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,160 Speaker 1: It's also known as rock wool, which is a brand name. 824 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,000 Speaker 1: This is stuff that's also used in insulation, filtration and soundproofing, 825 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 1: but when used as a growing medium, it has to 826 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:55,440 Speaker 1: be replaced after one or more growing cycles. Um. Furthermore, 827 00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: not every crop takes to mineral wool all that well, 828 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,000 Speaker 1: So in other words, you'd still potentially have to ship 829 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 1: uh this growing medium out to your colony and depend 830 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,560 Speaker 1: on that supply chain. So they ultimately contend that aero ponics, 831 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,520 Speaker 1: in which plants grow in an air or missed environment 832 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,360 Speaker 1: without soil as a growing medium. Um, you know that 833 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,719 Speaker 1: that could be a strong possibility, and certainly that's something 834 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,080 Speaker 1: that NASA sponsored plant experiments have been looking into for 835 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,560 Speaker 1: quite a while, and with good reason to. According to NASA, 836 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:34,240 Speaker 1: aeroponics systems can reduce water usage by of, fertilizer usage 837 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:39,880 Speaker 1: by and pesticide usage by all while maximizing crop yields, 838 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,040 Speaker 1: and some crops like tomatoes, have been shown to benefit 839 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,400 Speaker 1: from increased mineral envitamin uptake via aero ponics. According to 840 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,160 Speaker 1: a two thousand seven NASA released, tomato growers traditionally start 841 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 1: their plants in pots weight twenty eight days or so 842 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:58,080 Speaker 1: before transplanting them into the ground. However, using an aero 843 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,000 Speaker 1: ponics system, they can then hands plant them from a 844 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: growing chamber to the soil in just ten days, and 845 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,720 Speaker 1: this apparently allows growers to produce six tomato crops cycles 846 00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,719 Speaker 1: per year instead of the traditional one or two crop cycles. 847 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,879 Speaker 1: I believe aeroponics have been used in the I s 848 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 1: s already, haven't they? Yeah? I believe so there've been 849 00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,759 Speaker 1: There have been certainly been some experiments with aeroponics. It's 850 00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,160 Speaker 1: like I say, it's something that it's not new in 851 00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:27,920 Speaker 1: terms of uh NASA research looking at that as a 852 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,880 Speaker 1: solution for growing things in orbit or certainly ultimately on 853 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,600 Speaker 1: other worlds. Okay, but what about actually using the soil 854 00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,760 Speaker 1: on another rocky body like the lunar or Martian regular 855 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,200 Speaker 1: eth Okay, Well, in that paper by Elgin and Guni, 856 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,080 Speaker 1: and they point out that there are a number of 857 00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,759 Speaker 1: issues with the Martian regular For example, they would have 858 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,840 Speaker 1: to be worked out. So for starters, the regulars is 859 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:55,879 Speaker 1: full of perclorates. These are chemical compounds containing the perclorate 860 00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,759 Speaker 1: ion which are harmful to humans and a challenge to 861 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,360 Speaker 1: my grow organisms as well, And these would need to 862 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,560 Speaker 1: be stripped out of the regular if before you could 863 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,200 Speaker 1: plant anything in it. Furthermore, the Martian regulars is, as 864 00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,080 Speaker 1: far as we can tell dead. Uh, that's the start 865 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,840 Speaker 1: difference from the soil we depend on here on Earth, 866 00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:20,120 Speaker 1: which is a rich environment of microbial life, fung gui, arthropods, 867 00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 1: organic nutrients. So they argue that you need to add 868 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,560 Speaker 1: something that you need to essentially resurrect that soil. I 869 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,200 Speaker 1: mean you resurrect that regular to make it soil. You 870 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,040 Speaker 1: would need to add something like worm castings to the mix. 871 00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:37,040 Speaker 1: Now that's essentially the refuse of earthworms that are just 872 00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:42,920 Speaker 1: packed with bacteria, enzymes and remnants of plant matter and excrement. 873 00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,040 Speaker 1: And you can actually this is stuff you can buy 874 00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,960 Speaker 1: for your own garden at gardening supply stores. You just 875 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,080 Speaker 1: get a big container of earthworm poop. Well it's got it. 876 00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,520 Speaker 1: It says worm castings, but that's essentially what it is. Yeah. Nice. 877 00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,680 Speaker 1: So anyway, Yeah, the Martian soil is sterile, and this 878 00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,480 Speaker 1: would be a way to sift some life into it. Anyway. 879 00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,719 Speaker 1: They go on to explore hydroponics in greater detail. Uh. 880 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,480 Speaker 1: And but then to come back to tomatoes for a second, 881 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,680 Speaker 1: we should note that the golden apples of Terra can 882 00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:15,000 Speaker 1: be grown via high hydroponics and aero ponics, so both 883 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:17,040 Speaker 1: of the If either of those turned out to be 884 00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,360 Speaker 1: the way, as opposed to uh, doing something to the 885 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,160 Speaker 1: soil on on the Moon or on Mars, it sounds 886 00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,759 Speaker 1: like the tomatoes future would be bright. Now. To come 887 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,400 Speaker 1: back to the fime link paper um that study, basically, 888 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:34,480 Speaker 1: they wanted to see, if we're gonna use regularly, what 889 00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:39,080 Speaker 1: plant species might grow their best um. Now, since there 890 00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,840 Speaker 1: is no regularly available here on Earth, we don't have 891 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,560 Speaker 1: any you know, you can't go and get an actual 892 00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,960 Speaker 1: pot of lunar or Martian soil to experiment with. Uh, 893 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,200 Speaker 1: they decided to use the next best thing, which is 894 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:57,840 Speaker 1: NASA's Mars regular simulant j s C Mars one A. Okay, 895 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,520 Speaker 1: there's actually they're actually several different versions of Regulus similant 896 00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,520 Speaker 1: out there, like this one is j s C Mars 897 00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,120 Speaker 1: one A, but there's also one called j SC one 898 00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,799 Speaker 1: A that is the lunar version, and there are some 899 00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:14,000 Speaker 1: other varieties out there. Um Mars one A is based 900 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,680 Speaker 1: on info gathered from the Viking Landers and the Mars 901 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 1: path Finder rover, and it's pretty interesting stuff in and 902 00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,960 Speaker 1: of itself. This one, in particular is gathered from the 903 00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,800 Speaker 1: pooh Nene cinder cone on the Big Island of Hawaii. Okay, 904 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,719 Speaker 1: so that would be it would be like a volcanic 905 00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,360 Speaker 1: soil base. Yeah. So anyway, the researchers in this study 906 00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,399 Speaker 1: they used a nutrient solution made from a grass used 907 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,560 Speaker 1: as a cattle fodder to enrich the soil, and they 908 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:47,680 Speaker 1: cultivated ten different crops uh garden crests, rocket, tomato, radish, rye, keeno, spinach, chives, 909 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:51,240 Speaker 1: pas and leak and they assimilated the properties of lunar 910 00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,640 Speaker 1: and Martian regulars and also normal soil potting soil from 911 00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,640 Speaker 1: Earth as a control. And if the tin crops. Uh. 912 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,200 Speaker 1: Spinach was the only one that was a complete dud. 913 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,120 Speaker 1: Uh chives and leaks grew steadily but didn't produce much. 914 00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:08,600 Speaker 1: Keenoa didn't produce seeds, which is a bummer because you 915 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,880 Speaker 1: want your off world crop to also produce seeds for 916 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,000 Speaker 1: the next generation. Again, you want to be as removed 917 00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:19,200 Speaker 1: from that supply chain back to the home world as 918 00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,400 Speaker 1: much as possible, right, so you can eventually succeed from 919 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:28,240 Speaker 1: Earth and declare independence. Yeah. Uh. Total biomass was highest 920 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,680 Speaker 1: for the Earth Control trays obviously, but also the Mars 921 00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:35,759 Speaker 1: trays were pretty high. Lunar tray was the worst, and 922 00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,240 Speaker 1: the seeds of three species radish, rye and garden crests 923 00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,800 Speaker 1: were tested successfully each for German nation. So those worlds 924 00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,400 Speaker 1: on only the most promising in terms of of um 925 00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,919 Speaker 1: you know, continuing to to grow without more seeds coming 926 00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,120 Speaker 1: from home. Well, I know, you're You've got to get 927 00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,759 Speaker 1: to the tomatoes. How did they do? The tomatoes did 928 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,640 Speaker 1: pretty well. They were the top biomass producer, and lead 929 00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,520 Speaker 1: author here of vigor of om Link is quoted as 930 00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,440 Speaker 1: saying that they were thrilled when the Martian tomatoes actually 931 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:08,040 Speaker 1: turned red whoa. And there are other studies and programs 932 00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,680 Speaker 1: looking at space tomato is as well. One I came 933 00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:17,480 Speaker 1: across is an operation known as space UM acronym. It's 934 00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,480 Speaker 1: an acronym. Yes, it's probably one of the more amusing 935 00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:23,400 Speaker 1: acronyms I've run across recently for the show. It is 936 00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:28,520 Speaker 1: the Small Plants for Space Expeditions program UM. Uh. So 937 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:32,480 Speaker 1: it's from the University of California, Riverside, and it's what 938 00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:36,399 Speaker 1: they've done is they've developed a tiny tomato plant uh 939 00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,720 Speaker 1: that feature minimal leaves and stems, but produce a normal 940 00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:44,040 Speaker 1: amount of fruit, though in smaller packages. So in other words, 941 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:48,240 Speaker 1: more biomass is invested into the edible portions of the plant. 942 00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,080 Speaker 1: And they also this also minimizes resources and energy consumption 943 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:56,279 Speaker 1: by producing fruit more quickly than conventional plants. Oh yeah, 944 00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,959 Speaker 1: I hadn't even really considered this, but it makes sense 945 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:03,040 Speaker 1: that if you were trying to it crops to colonize, uh, 946 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,799 Speaker 1: you know, on a space station or another planet, you 947 00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:09,520 Speaker 1: could probably work back home to try to engineer sort 948 00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:13,920 Speaker 1: of the perfect version of the organism to take with you. Yeah. 949 00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,839 Speaker 1: And they also point out that this this is not 950 00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,400 Speaker 1: only something to could be utilized in aum, you know, 951 00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,360 Speaker 1: orbital or otherworldly environment, but also it's ideal for vertical 952 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,480 Speaker 1: farming here on Earth. Again, think to those big tomatoes, 953 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:27,480 Speaker 1: you know, because we end up trying to do some 954 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:31,440 Speaker 1: forms form of vertical farming, uh sometimes via our steaks 955 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,799 Speaker 1: and tomato cages, and they're just so dern heavy, right. 956 00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:38,759 Speaker 1: The idea here is is make everything else about the 957 00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,560 Speaker 1: plant smaller, focus on the tomato itself, but also the 958 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,560 Speaker 1: tomato is less hefty as well. Well, hey, I got 959 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,080 Speaker 1: no problem with small tomatoes. As I've said before, I mean, 960 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,759 Speaker 1: uh often the best tomatoes you can get under less 961 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,360 Speaker 1: than ideal conditions, such as like the supply chain that 962 00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,120 Speaker 1: gets tomatoes to a grocery store are gonna be cherry 963 00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,520 Speaker 1: or grape tomatoes that they may be small, but they 964 00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,440 Speaker 1: get a lot of flavor for their side. Now that 965 00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:03,720 Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about this is the Space 966 00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:08,880 Speaker 1: team developed these tomato is not via selective breeding, but 967 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:13,680 Speaker 1: via Crisper case nine gene editing technology. Yeah. I don't 968 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,400 Speaker 1: know if we've really gotten into their into the use 969 00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 1: of Crisper gene editing in uh in agriculture, but obviously 970 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,280 Speaker 1: this would be huge. Yeah, we often when we're talking 971 00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,640 Speaker 1: about crisper, and when I say we not just us, 972 00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:28,040 Speaker 1: but you know, just sort of media in general and 973 00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,520 Speaker 1: the public were generally asking the question what about humans though? 974 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,320 Speaker 1: What about humans though? But we should occasionally say we 975 00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:37,800 Speaker 1: stop and ask the question what about tomatoes? And here 976 00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,600 Speaker 1: we are, so on top of those the biomass tweaks, 977 00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,200 Speaker 1: they're also looking at a couple of other tweaks, um 978 00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,360 Speaker 1: for an example, in an increase in the photosynthesis rate, 979 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,040 Speaker 1: because this would help replace c O two in an 980 00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:54,880 Speaker 1: enclosed environment with fresh oxygen, which would be ideal for 981 00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:59,280 Speaker 1: any onboard animals such as human beings. So there seems 982 00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,480 Speaker 1: to be a lot, you know of interesting possibility in 983 00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:06,000 Speaker 1: all this tweaking alien soils to better support terrestrial food plants, 984 00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:09,480 Speaker 1: and also tweaking those plants to better capitalize on those 985 00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,960 Speaker 1: environments and better serving the energy demands of the humans 986 00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,280 Speaker 1: who bring them there. Robert, I just thought of a 987 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,480 Speaker 1: complication here. So we're talking about on on the surfaces 988 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,640 Speaker 1: of other planets with normal gravity, But if you were 989 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,680 Speaker 1: to try to grow tomatoes in micro gravity, say on 990 00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,880 Speaker 1: the on the I S S, then potentially you could 991 00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:31,160 Speaker 1: grow tomato plants with big fruits that you wouldn't have 992 00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,960 Speaker 1: to steak or put in the cage, right because they 993 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:39,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't be dragged down by gravity. Well that's true, yeah, um, 994 00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:42,160 Speaker 1: But I guess on on that front, I wonder about, 995 00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, because we've all seen those tomatoes just get 996 00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:46,720 Speaker 1: so big they're just bursting. But I guess, on the 997 00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,280 Speaker 1: other hand, you'd probably be keeping a pretty close eye. 998 00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:51,800 Speaker 1: And I mean on the I S S they run 999 00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:55,240 Speaker 1: a pretty tight ship, and I imagine that would um, 1000 00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:57,560 Speaker 1: that would also be the case with any kind of 1001 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,280 Speaker 1: tomato garden up there, Oh yeah, one, or if the 1002 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,800 Speaker 1: tomato would be kind of bouncing around and whatever its 1003 00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:07,160 Speaker 1: enclosure is. Yeah, yeah, I don't know, keep it in mind. 1004 00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:11,200 Speaker 1: I also wonder though, how gravity affects um. So there's 1005 00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:13,720 Speaker 1: something about the shape of a tomato that seems like 1006 00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 1: it would somehow be influenced by the presence of gravity, 1007 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:19,320 Speaker 1: and that it's a very heavy fruit and it's got 1008 00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,160 Speaker 1: a lot of moisture in it, and I wonder if, 1009 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,640 Speaker 1: like you know, that it's necessary for the moisture to 1010 00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,560 Speaker 1: be weighing down towards the bottom of the tomato for 1011 00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:31,680 Speaker 1: its morphology to resemble the tomatoes we know that's true, 1012 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,040 Speaker 1: and so we might end up with a more spherical tomato, 1013 00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,120 Speaker 1: is that what you're saying. I don't know, maybe or 1014 00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:39,800 Speaker 1: more maybe a more top heavy tomato, I wonder, Or 1015 00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,520 Speaker 1: maybe it'll be, you know, ultimately where we missed the 1016 00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,080 Speaker 1: point made years ago, and it's going to be Mickey 1017 00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:50,640 Speaker 1: Mouse shaped watermelons. Like that's that's the future of fruit 1018 00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:53,240 Speaker 1: in space. I love it, all right, So there we 1019 00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:55,720 Speaker 1: have it. As we said, you know, we did not 1020 00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,440 Speaker 1: have space in these episodes to discuss the entire history 1021 00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,200 Speaker 1: of hmen and tomato interaction, nor did we even really 1022 01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:06,440 Speaker 1: get to touch on everything that's going on with tomato science, 1023 01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:10,000 Speaker 1: tomato research, etcetera. I mean, it's a massively juicy field. 1024 01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:12,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a lot we could come back to, 1025 01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:16,080 Speaker 1: that's right. So anyway, hopefully though, it gives it gives 1026 01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,960 Speaker 1: everybody a lot more to think about when they inevitably 1027 01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:25,840 Speaker 1: engage with tomato based cuisine. And hopefully as you enjoy 1028 01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,520 Speaker 1: some fresh tomatoes or at least reasonably fresh tomatoes this 1029 01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,240 Speaker 1: growing season. Yeah, it's a short window every year. It's 1030 01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,000 Speaker 1: a precious time, so so get them while you can, 1031 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,000 Speaker 1: all right, in the meantime, if you want to listen 1032 01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:38,640 Speaker 1: to more episodes of Stuff to Boil your Mind, you 1033 01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,600 Speaker 1: know where to find them. Wherever you get your podcasts, 1034 01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:44,360 Speaker 1: that's where they are and wherever that happens to be. 1035 01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:46,600 Speaker 1: Just make sure you rate, review, and subscribe if you 1036 01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,720 Speaker 1: have the ability to on those platforms. Huge things, as 1037 01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:53,240 Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If 1038 01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,160 Speaker 1: you'd like to get in touch with us with feedback 1039 01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,320 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, or to suggest a 1040 01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:59,800 Speaker 1: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you 1041 01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,560 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 1042 01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:12,880 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production 1043 01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:15,680 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 1044 01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:18,240 Speaker 1: this is the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 1045 01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:31,800 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.