1 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death, starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk Hi. 2 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: Everyone, Welcome The Mother Knows Death. On today's episode, we 3 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 2: have a very special guest, Barbara Butcher. Barbara is a 4 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 2: pioneer for women in the field of death investigation. She 5 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 2: was the second woman ever hired as a death investigator 6 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 2: for the New York City Medical Examiner's Office. Over the years, 7 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 2: she's worked on six hundred and eighty homicides and on 8 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 2: some of the most devastating mass disasters of our time, 9 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 2: including nine to eleven, the two thousand and four Thailand tsunami, 10 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 2: the London underground bombing, and the crash of Flight five 11 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: eighty seven. Today, we're going to talk to Barbara about 12 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 2: her career, and she's also going to tell us about 13 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 2: her new TV show, The Death Investigator with Barbara Butcher, 14 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 2: that premieres this Saturday, September twenty seventh, at nine pm 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 2: Eastern Time on the Oxygen Network. Hi, Barbara, Welcome The 16 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:09,839 Speaker 2: Mother Knows Death. 17 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: Hi, Nicole, Hi, and Maria. It's so great to see 18 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: you all. 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 2: Congrats on the show. We are so excited that this 20 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 2: is coming out. In the intro, I had said that 21 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: you're a pioneer for women in this field of death investigation, 22 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 2: and it's just so cool to be represented like this. 23 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: So thank you, thank you. 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 25 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: I think I've told you before that it's a little rough, 26 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: or was certainly very rough when I started out in 27 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two. I remember my first homicide that I 28 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: did on my own. I was about three months into training. 29 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: I went to the to the scene and there was 30 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: a detective standing outside and he said, yeah, honey, happily 31 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: help you. I said, I'm the death investigator. I'm here 32 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: for the medical Examiner's office. I have to examine the 33 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: body in the seat. He said, I don't worry about it. 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: Crime scenes, got it. I said, no, no, this is 35 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: my job. I need to do this, and he said, 36 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: all right, all right, come on it. Second time. It 37 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: happened about two months later. Detective says, yes, sweetie, how 38 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: can I help you? I said, I'll tell you what. 39 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: I don't think you can help me. Maybe I can 40 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: help you. I'm going to go in there, I'm going 41 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,119 Speaker 1: to examine that body. I'm going to tell you how 42 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: he died, when he died, and maybe even who did it. 43 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: And then when you're in court, testifying on this case, 44 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: and they say, how do you know these things? Detective? 45 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: You can say, Barbara Butcher told me, all right, love 46 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: that and he went, whoa. That cemented my reputation with NYPD. 47 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: They knew I was eccentric, dedicated, and really really curious 48 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: about death. 49 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: That's so awesome. So how did you get into this field, 50 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: because obviously it's kind I mean I didn't even start 51 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: working in the lab until ninety nine either, so I 52 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: had to find things the old fashioned way before the 53 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: internet was the thing. So how did you even know 54 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 2: that there was a job, especially for women in this field? 55 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: You know, I didn't really know. When I was a kid, 56 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: about ten years old, I had a dissecting kid, a 57 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: chemistry set in a microscope. I loved investigating, So the 58 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: kids in the neighborhood would bring me road chill and 59 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: I dissect a raccoon and say, oh, the rip caage 60 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: is crushed and the lum is hemorrhaging, and you see 61 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: on the outside squiddly black ones. This raccoon was run 62 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: over by a car. The kids would say, whoa. So 63 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: I had right from the beginning, I had this need 64 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: to know. Then, after working in surgery, for some years, 65 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: and as a hospital director, I was bored to cheers and 66 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: I went to a career counseling service. They gave me 67 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: all the tests and they said you should either be 68 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: a poultry veterinarian or a corner I said, why free. 69 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: They said, well, you know, you get to attached to 70 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: your patients and when they don't do well, it really 71 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: affects you. So if you worked with puppies and kittens, 72 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: you'd be upset all the time. Poultry, though, chickens, they 73 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: have beating little eyes. Nobody cares. I said, I don't know. 74 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: I think i'll take the dead peak now. So I 75 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: said coroner. Fine, and I forgot that they have families, 76 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: and you do get attached, you do get emotionally affected, 77 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: and you'll see a lot of that in the show. 78 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: But they said, why don't you call one person in 79 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: New York City who you think has the best job 80 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: in the world. So I called doctor Charles Hirsh, chief 81 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: Medical Examiner of New York. He said, sure, come on in, 82 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: let's talk. And we talked for a long time and 83 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: they offered me the job of death investigator. Wow, this 84 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: is extraordinary. 85 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 2: That's so amazing, because I feel like a lot of 86 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 2: younger people now always ask me how to get into 87 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: this field, and it's just so much different now. And 88 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 2: I mean even when I started doing autopsy, I felt 89 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 2: like any person that was interested in the career could 90 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: come view an autopsy. And now they won't even let 91 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: people that were working in the hospital with me as 92 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: a nurse or something view an autopsy. So it's just 93 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: harder for people to just make a phone call like 94 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 2: that and just get their foot in the door just 95 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: having interests. 96 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: Oh, it was a very different time, and you're absolutely right, 97 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: it was so different back then. Yeah, I used to 98 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: have interns always come and follow me around to cases, 99 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: and that's changed so much. 100 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's unfortunate because I mean, like, it's cool because 101 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: you get to have a show like yours where people 102 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: could see because we saw an episode of your show 103 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 2: and it really does portray what it would be like 104 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: to work in your position, which is awesome for people 105 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 2: to be able to see. 106 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 4: And I think today with true crime and everything, this 107 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 4: world is just so glamorized, and I think the show 108 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 4: does a really incredible job of showing there are families 109 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 4: behind these cases and what you see is really gruesome, 110 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 4: and you have to have a stomach for it and 111 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,679 Speaker 4: be able to go there and kind of take yourself 112 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 4: out of it and investigate the proper way. 113 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know, it requires a great deal of emotional detachment. 114 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: When I come into a scene and it's horrifying when 115 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: a child is killed or a family is killed, and 116 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: the grief and the terror and the sadness start to 117 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: wash over me, I have to quit, slam down the 118 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: gate of detachment, and in doing that, I turn off 119 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: my emotions and I become laser focused on the forensics. 120 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: Who is this person? What does every little finding on 121 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: this body mean? What does the scene tell me? You know, 122 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: we not only see how people die, we see how 123 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: they live, and that's an extraordinary privilege, and it also 124 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: helps us understand who their killer was. So I do that, 125 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: I detach. Unfortunately, it's not always so easy to lift 126 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: that detachment. You know, you go home and your partner says, well, 127 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: if you've got to paint this kitchen, I can't stand 128 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: this color anymore. Why don't you and why don't you 129 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: make arrangements for us to go down to Florida and 130 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: see my father? Like, what the hell are you talking? 131 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: About you, any idea what I saw today, even the 132 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: idea what I did. But I can't say that because 133 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: it's not fair. I signed up for this. The people 134 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: in my life they didn't. 135 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: So yeah, do you want to say, like, people are 136 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: having real problems in their life right now, your kitchen 137 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: is not a real problem, you know, Like cause my 138 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: husband's a firefighter and he has to always it's the 139 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 2: same thing. He always has to hold back because the 140 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: kids will be whining about something so just so irrelevant, 141 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: and he's just like last night, at three o'clock in 142 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: the morning, there were three kids sleeping on the couch 143 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: in a house with twelve people living there. You don't 144 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 2: have any problems, you know. You know, it's just like 145 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: hard to detach from. 146 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: What you see. 147 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 2: And I was going to ask you that because you've 148 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: dealt you've seen some pretty i mean some of the 149 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: worst things that have ever happened in the history of 150 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: our country, especially nine to eleven in particular. 151 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: So what what was your. 152 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: Involvement with that? Like, how did that day start off 153 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: for you? And what did you contribute to that investigation? 154 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: Oh god, I was part of remains recovery. You know 155 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: that that morning that it happened. I was in Asbury Park, 156 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: New Jersey, and I had been out for some surgery, 157 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: and so I wasn't there, calling the sea wow, and 158 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: which is like extraordinary to me. But I tried to 159 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: get into the city and the tunnels were closed and 160 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: everything was closed down. It was so I was freaking out. 161 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: I finally got in and to show up at my 162 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: office and see military people everywhere with AK forty seven's 163 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: and these jets flying overhead. It was extraordinary. And so 164 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: my job was to organize a team and we'd go 165 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: out and recover human remains from the rule. And when 166 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: I'm saying human remains, I'm not talking about a whole 167 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: body or even an armor a leg. I'm talking about 168 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: minuscule pieces of a person. And then I worked on 169 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: the line. The line is like a long conveyor belt, 170 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: and the warm trucks would pull up at the office 171 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: and with remains of people found in the rubble by 172 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: firemen and policemen, by us, and we just take them 173 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: and clean them off and separate them. There was a 174 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,719 Speaker 1: time when I couldn't believe what I was seeing. There 175 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: was a bag with a human heart, a set of 176 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: car cheese and a penis in this black body bag. 177 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: And I said, what is the association? Here? Is this 178 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: like the essence of this man? I don't understand. It 179 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: made no sense. And then another piece would come along, 180 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: a chest cavity with an arm inside it, and another 181 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: chess cavity with a jaw inside it, and I was 182 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: seeing things. I could not believe. The forces that were 183 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: at play there were extraordinary. And so day after day 184 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: this horror keeps coming to us, and then we start 185 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: working with the families. Talk about heartbreak. My god. You 186 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: know when someone says, we see, to the family, we 187 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: found or remain the remains of your husband and we're 188 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: going to issue a death certificate, and they say, well, 189 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: where was he found? Can you point to a map 190 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: and say here and here and here, And they say 191 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 1: can we see the body? There is no body where. 192 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: It's scraps of flesh. 193 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 2: And people just they just don't realize how bad that 194 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: really looks. You would never ever want to view. I mean, 195 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 2: it's the same when there's someone that's decomp and people 196 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: insist on seeing them, and you're just like, you never 197 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 2: want to see your loved one look like that, ever, ever, 198 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 2: ever you can't imagine ever, you know, washing that image 199 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 2: out of your mind. 200 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I can just you know it. Sometimes it 201 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: hits me like this, feeling like seeing someone I love 202 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: in pieces. I don't know how we all did it, 203 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: and I don't know how those families still carry on 204 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: to this date. There's a lot of bravery and courage 205 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: out there, people who bear the unbearable victims of families 206 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: of the homicides we've seen, and anyway, it's a lot, 207 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: it's a lot, I think in this show, in The 208 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: Death Investigator, we don't concentrate that much on the horror, 209 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 1: although there are some things that are a bit overwhelming. 210 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: We concentrate on the forensics, how did we investigate? How 211 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: did we figure out this puzzle? And we concentrate on 212 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: the people, the victims, their families, the detectives, and the 213 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: Death Investigator of me, what is it like to be 214 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: in there, what is it like to be doing and 215 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: what did you learn? How did you learn it, how 216 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: did you solve it? So there's an emotional component to it. 217 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: You know, some of these detectives we're talking about a 218 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: case we did together ten years ago, fifteen, twenty years ago, 219 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: they still choke up because they remember that victim, they 220 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: remember the family. It's hard. 221 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 4: This episode is brought to you by the Gross Room. Guys. 222 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 2: This week's high profile death dissection involves singer David. It's 223 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: been all over the news. So we go through everything 224 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 2: that they will be looking at if you find a 225 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: body in the trunk, and how you do in death 226 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: investigation from there. We also have a really interesting case 227 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 2: this week of a man who he said he had 228 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 2: a problem with his penis, let's say, and he went 229 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 2: to the doctor and tried to say it was from 230 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: some traumatic event, and it ends up that he was 231 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 2: just trying to make it bigger. So it's bigger for sure. 232 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: I don't know if it's better, But you guys could 233 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 2: be the judge of that. All that and more in 234 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 2: the Gross Room. 235 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, head over to the Grossroom dot com now to 236 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 4: sign up. 237 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 2: Well, and plus we and we talk about this on 238 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 2: our show all the time. Like you guys, as investigators 239 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: at the Emmy's office and detectives, you seriously meet the 240 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: most horrible people in the world that exists that do 241 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 2: this to other people. So it's it's just hard for 242 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 2: you to be a normal human and process that sometimes 243 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 2: and it will still upset you because you can't believe 244 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 2: what people do to each other. 245 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 4: Right, last week, we even got a question that was, like, 246 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 4: with all the horrible things you see, do you feel 247 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 4: you're losing faith in humanity because you, guys just see 248 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 4: the worst of the worst. 249 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: You know, you're talking about something very important here. And 250 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: it's like they usually call it first responder syndrome, even 251 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: though I'm a last responder. You know, I shore after 252 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: after everything's done. But what happens is you see evil. 253 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: You see death every single day. And like when I 254 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: started out in ninety two, we were getting two thy 255 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: four hundred homicides a year in New York City, So 256 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: I was seeing homicides all day long, at least two 257 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: or three. And then you start to believe that that's 258 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: the Norman, that's how things are, that people are always 259 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: being murdered, people are always committing suicide horrible accidents or 260 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: falling out of the sky, and you start to think 261 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: that that's the way life is, and it gives you 262 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: a very dark feeling. It've really it's awful, and you 263 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: have to check the statistics. You have to look at 264 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: things reasonably and analytically and say no, just because I'm 265 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: seeing it all day doesn't mean it's happening all day. 266 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: This is just my viewpoint. That's one thing. The other 267 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: thing is that there's a great deal of sensitivity you 268 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: start to develop inside that hearing certain things, talking about 269 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: certain things. When people are casual about a homicide, I go, yeah, 270 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: I mean she was a prostitute or what do you expect? 271 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: WHOA That really really hurts and there's an anger that 272 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: comes up from that. I know these people, I've seen them. 273 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: It's been an homes I see their lives, and I 274 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: see how they died and how they live. 275 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 2: I think that attitude is increasing by the day, and 276 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 2: it's scary. It's scaring me how many people are saying 277 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: things like that about people who die. And you're just like, 278 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 2: this isn't a video game. This is real life, and 279 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: you have to have some kind of compassion towards that. 280 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: Even if you don't like people, I mean that's how 281 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 2: or you don't agree with what they like. A prostitutes 282 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 2: a perfect example. You don't agree with what they do, maybe, 283 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: but like that doesn't mean that that her life is 284 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: not it's a human livid. Yeah, it's a human it's yeah. 285 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: You know, I've seen deaths or drug addicts overdosing and 286 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: they go, eh, you know, it's just another junkie. My brother, 287 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: my brother John was a heroin addict and he died 288 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: of an accidental overdose. And to think that someone said 289 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: I just another freaking junkie, it just it hurts my heart. 290 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 291 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 2: I feel that way about drugs too, because I really 292 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 2: feel it's the addiction is a medical issue. I just 293 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 2: know it is, because you know, I was a teenager 294 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 2: once and tried stuff and never got addicted. Like it 295 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 2: just happens to some people. And once you're in it, 296 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: or even if you make a mistake and try it 297 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 2: even knowing that it's wrong. The same could be said 298 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 2: with drinking and cigarettes and everything like that, it's very 299 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 2: hard to get out of that and rewire your brain, 300 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 2: and your brain is almost permanently damaged to be like that. 301 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 2: And you just have to have a little bit more 302 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 2: compassion for those people because like we have Kensington in Philadelphia, 303 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 2: right it's like one of the worst areas in the 304 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 2: country for drugs. When when we drive through that neighborhood, 305 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 2: I look at those people and I'm like, nobody wants 306 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 2: to be here. 307 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 4: It makes you want to cry. 308 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: It makes me it's terrible because I see young people 309 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 2: and I'm like, that's someone's baby, you know, Oh my god, 310 00:17:59,440 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: it's so. 311 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: Ter Every person is a universe unto thomselves and around them, 312 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: our mother, father, sister, wife, husband, children. Every death, you know, 313 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: it does something to a group of people in the world. 314 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: So homicide is it's a puzzling phenomenon. Why people kill. 315 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: I don't think we'll ever figure it out, but I 316 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: do my best in each and every case to figure 317 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: why did this happen, and how did it happen, and 318 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: to get justice for the families. And I think you'll 319 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: see a lot of that in the show. Is that 320 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: compulsion to solve it, to fix it somehow? 321 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's one of the things that you could 322 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 2: always tell yourself when you're kind of being cold and 323 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 2: cutting your own emotions off, like someone like you cannot 324 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 2: you will not be helpful at all if you're crying 325 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 2: with the family. There has to be people that could 326 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 2: turn it off to get justice for these people asolutely. 327 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: And you know, one of the toughest things is that 328 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: at the scene of a homicide, when the family is there. 329 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: Now I have to question them. I have to talk 330 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: to them about what happened, what they know, and I 331 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: have to be incredibly of course sympathetic empathetic to know 332 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: what they're going through at the same time knowing one 333 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: of them couldn't be the perpetrator. That is a balancing 334 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: act that is so difficult and one of the toughest 335 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: aspects of the job. 336 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 2: That was one thing I was curious about asking you 337 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 2: because I know you've been on thousands and thousands of scenes, 338 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: but a lot of people don't realize that someone in 339 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: your position just doesn't deal with homicide. You go to 340 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 2: accidents and suicides and natural deaths all probably more often 341 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: than homicides, honestly, So do you touch on any of 342 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: that in the show, any other manner of death besides homicide? 343 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: You know, in this first season we've caused traded on 344 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: homicide because I think we want to get across the 345 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: nature of this job. I want to teach people, teach 346 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: the view about forensics, about how we actually saw the 347 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: case and what my job is. And I would like 348 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: to and I know we will, we get another season 349 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: talk about investigating what could be a homicide or a suicide. 350 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: I've got some really interesting cases on that. It's hard 351 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: to tell sometimes, particularly when a person comes down from 352 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: a height, well they or either they jump, they're pushed 353 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: from a roof, or they accidentally fall from a roof. 354 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: I've seen all of those and how to decide which 355 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: it is. That's a tough investigation. 356 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's there's a lot of interest in that too. 357 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: I mean everything. I always think that everything could be, 358 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 2: you know, related to celebrity deaths. And Liampaigne's a good 359 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 2: example of someone that just fell off the roof recently, 360 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 2: but it was just like, wasn't an accident? Did someone 361 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 2: in the room push them? 362 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: You know? 363 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 2: So it is cool how you guys go through everything 364 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 2: and try to figure that out. And I love that 365 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 2: you're just going to go through all of this with 366 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 2: the homicides too, because the average person just watches crime 367 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 2: shows and thinks it's just a lot different in real life, 368 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 2: right sure is. 369 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: We don't have any computers with flashing lights and rock 370 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: music lasting in the background and enormous screens that show 371 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: everyone in the city and show you what they were eating. 372 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it just doesn't exist. Our job is gritty, 373 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: it's science, and it's also instinct, it's experience, knowledge of 374 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: human nature. It's so many things. You know, Maria, before 375 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: you asked a question about meeting the evil people like 376 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: sat and had conversations with serial killers. I have you know, 377 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: back in the day, we didn't just take a cheek 378 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: swap for DNA. It had to draw blood. And I'd 379 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: have to pluck hair by the roots from a serial killer, 380 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: including the hair from the head and pubic hair. And 381 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: I sit with this guy and he looks to me 382 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: like a wolf. His eyes are flat, They're not connecting 383 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: with me. He's assessing me as if I were pray. 384 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: How can I be useful to this monster? This guy 385 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:37,719 Speaker 1: was slashing people's throats with impunity and a violent, violent chiller. 386 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: And his chilling partner, also, his lover was just as 387 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: charming and sweet as you could possibly be. This guy, 388 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: he was like an animal to me, and I had 389 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: to sit and talk to her. I sat and spoke 390 00:22:54,920 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: with Aaron t the chiller of little Girls in Spanish Harler. 391 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: I think he was convicted on Alani homicides for ten 392 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: rapes he did over a ten year period. These were 393 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: adolescent girls. Now, you didn't hear about this. Why because 394 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: they were Hispanic or black and they were poor. So 395 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: in the newspaper did it say, you know, rapist murder 396 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: on the loose, little girls whatever? Nah, you saw one 397 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: white woman on Park Avenue who got killed. It was 398 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: all over the paper. But did you see these little girls? 399 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: No? 400 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: And that bothers the hell out of me. And when 401 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: I do these cases on this show, I'm telling you 402 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: about this person who they are. These are people we 403 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: all care about, and I think it needs to be said. 404 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 4: I think the first episode, and I don't want to 405 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 4: give any spoilers away, but I think you guys did 406 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 4: such a great job of detailing the family and who, 407 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 4: like you're, who each victim was. As a lay person too, 408 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 4: I just thought all the scientific facts you dropped, Like 409 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 4: you guys have to take pictures before you step on 410 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 4: a scene and after so you know exactly where you 411 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 4: touched it and moved everything. I've always wondered that, and 412 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 4: I've never really just known the answer. So just learning 413 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 4: cool tidbits like that along the way is awesome, as 414 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,479 Speaker 4: well as learning about these really compelling cases, and you know, 415 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 4: seeing how emotional people are getting behind it. It is 416 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 4: nice to see, and especially when we live in a 417 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,959 Speaker 4: society where just everybody's so cold towards murder these days. 418 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's becoming like a it's like a statistic, 419 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: Oh six people killed, three people killed. It's people are 420 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: not statistics. It's it's you know, when you like when 421 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: I work the Asian Southeast Asian tsunami in two thousand 422 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: and four. 423 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 2: Too, I wanted to talk to you about that because 424 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 2: I'm so interested in that. 425 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,239 Speaker 1: Two hundred and thirty five thousand people wiped out in 426 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: a few moments an enormous way, thirty feet high, rushing inland, 427 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 1: drowning people, killing people. And I go to Thailand to 428 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 1: help them with victim identification. And I went with my 429 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: boss and to the colleague and to what we saw 430 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: there was so overwhelming. And so I see individuals that 431 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 1: we had to identify, and I'd see the people doing 432 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: the work, and the Thai people are wonderful, they are 433 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: so brave. Instead of going and rebuilding their homes, they 434 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: were living in cordboard shacks and helping rebuild the resorts, 435 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: helping recover bodies, helping identify bodies. They were working and working. 436 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: They put their personal needs aside to help their countrymen, 437 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: and that to me was so beautiful. I love working 438 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: with them. And you know, I come back to the States. 439 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: I went twice to work on it, and come back 440 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: to the States, people like, wow, two hundred and thirty 441 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: five thousand people, that's incredible. Wow. No, no, no, Please 442 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: don't think of it that way. Think of it as 443 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: the man who worked in the hotel to support his 444 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 1: wife and four kids, and she cooked at a local restaurant. 445 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 1: The kids all went to school, they did well. Now 446 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 1: they're all wiped down. Please don't think of the numbers. 447 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: Think of the people. And I think we really get 448 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: that across on the show. Who are the victims? Oh definitely. 449 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 2: Well, it is interesting because the particular case that you 450 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 2: presented for the first episode, I never heard of it. 451 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 2: It wasn't just like one of the biggest cases that 452 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 2: you would think of, like OJ Simpson and Coburger, you know. 453 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 2: And you're listening to it though and thinking, jeez, this 454 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: is a huge story, right. And I did notice that 455 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 2: when I rotated at the Medical Examiner's office that I 456 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 2: would watch the news, and I, you know, I think 457 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 2: most people think this. I watched the news and would say, okay, 458 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 2: what am I walking into today? Yeah, and then I 459 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 2: would go in in the morning and there were so 460 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 2: much more bodies and I'm not talking about natural deaths, 461 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: like just more homicides and stuff. And you're like, well, 462 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 2: why did they say this person got shot? But there 463 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 2: was like five other people that got shot too, like 464 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 2: their life just wasn't worth mentioning on the news or 465 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: you know, just like stuff like that. 466 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: That's right, And those are the cases we're covering. Some 467 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: of my cases, the famous ones, they've been done to death. 468 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,719 Speaker 1: We're going deeper now, we're showing you the cases. You 469 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: don't hear about five six people a family slaughter. I mean, 470 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: shouldn't you hear about that? No? Yeah, no, no you 471 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: don't because they live in the Bronx. Bronx is not exciting. 472 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: But then you think about the Brian Coburger case where 473 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: you're just like, he actually killed less people and it 474 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 2: has the media attention worldwide. I mean it's a little 475 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 2: bit of a different circumstance, but still, I mean, yeah, yeah, so. 476 00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: It's strange, isn't it. 477 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it really is. It just shows you how 478 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 2: things could just be portrayed and give an impression on 479 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 2: the whole world of how things really are when they're 480 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 2: really not like that. 481 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: Sure, when Gene Hackman and his wife died, I did 482 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: so many interviews and so many talking heads on every 483 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: station to talk about how they died and what was 484 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: suspicious and what was not suspicious. But meanwhile, there were 485 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: people being left and right who are not movie stars. Yeah, 486 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: and we don't hear about them. But I guess that's 487 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 1: what makes a big story for the media. 488 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it sure does. So when you went to the 489 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 2: Indian Ocean tsunami, you were working at the EMMY at 490 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: the time. 491 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: Yes, I was the who the United Nations branch for 492 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: medical and disaster work. They invited my boss and I 493 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: to go over there to not to take over the job, certainly, 494 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,719 Speaker 1: but to provide assistance. We brought DNA scientists with us 495 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: and apologists, you know, and we we just helped to 496 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: guide and to consult with them. But they did a 497 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: truific job. 498 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just that's just another cool thing to mention 499 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 2: in your particular profession. That because you've got to see 500 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 2: a lot of different things that didn't happen in Manhattan 501 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 2: or in New York City, which is which is really 502 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: cool that you can go on these missions on different 503 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: areas where there it's disasters and you can contribute as well. 504 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I felt I felt that that was really an 505 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: important thing to do, is not take over, but just 506 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: go in and share a little of my experience or advice. 507 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: You know, we had plenty of experience because we did 508 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: nine to eleven, so of course, you know, identifying twenty 509 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: twenty something thousands body parts, there was there was a 510 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: lot of lessons learned and we shared them. I also 511 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: went to Hong Kong and did a conference for their 512 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: government there where we just shared what we had learned 513 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: there at the nine to eleven, at the tsunami and. 514 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 3: Airplane crashes that I worked and train wrecks, and we 515 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 3: shared the knowledge with them, and it was a privilege 516 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 3: to learn from them and to share with them. 517 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 2: Well, you were at that plane crash like two months 518 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 2: after nine to eleven, right, Like, how did your office 519 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 2: handle that? 520 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that was extraordinary. You know, when nine 521 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: to eleven happened, everyday, death still happened, homicide still occurred. 522 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: So we ran the office on two tracks. One was 523 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: the day to day city track of cases. The other 524 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: track was strictly nine to eleven. Then comes flight five 525 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: eighty seven and everyone thought, oh my god, sabotage and 526 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: of the terrorist attack, and so we had to run 527 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: that on a separate track, separate numbering system, separate people working. 528 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: And then after that there were the antrax envelopes coming 529 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: to the TV station, so more terrorist stuff. Uh, you know, 530 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: it was very, very difficult, but also very you know, 531 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: there's like an adrenaline rush when you you get when 532 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: you when you have a mission, when you have something 533 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: important that you must help with, you must assist it. 534 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: The adrenaline rush is incredible because you get the satisfaction 535 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: of maybe getting some justice for a family, maybe helping 536 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: the victims chiller to be brought to justice. So yeah, 537 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: it's a lot. 538 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: Well, before we wrap up, I just want to ask you. 539 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 2: You know, you're retired now obviously from that from that 540 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 2: particular job. So does this doing this show kind of 541 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 2: make it feel like you're kind of in the action 542 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 2: again a little bit? 543 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: It sure does, And you know I miss the action 544 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: I have. Yeah, but I've devoted my life now since 545 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: I'm not doing cases any more, you know, directly, I've 546 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: devoted it to creative pursuits, writing the book, doing this show, 547 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: and you know it, it's enormously satisfying. But every time 548 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: I get in there, God, I miss miss the work, 549 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: the camaraderie, working with the police and ypds, aces of 550 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: the country. As far as I'm concerns, I miss it. 551 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: I miss it a lot. 552 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's cool that you could bring some of 553 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 2: your old colleagues in with you as well and have 554 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: them because I know that all the retired guys are like, 555 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 2: you know, there's you just kind of get bored. There's nothing. 556 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 2: You know, my husband's always like wants to be inside 557 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 2: a burning building. It's just the way that it is. 558 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 4: You know. 559 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 2: Well, thanks so much for being here. 560 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 4: It was awesome. 561 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 2: I'm talking to you, and good luck with your show, 562 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: and everybody will watch your show. I guarantee it. It's 563 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 2: going to be great and you will get a second season, 564 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 2: I promise. 565 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: Mar Thank you both so much. It's a pleasure to 566 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: see you always. 567 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 2: Okay, all right, we'll see you next time we have dinner. 568 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: Bye bye, bye bye. 569 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death. As a reminder, 570 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 2: my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a 571 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 2: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education. 572 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 2: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed 573 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 2: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of 574 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 2: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social 575 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 2: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based 576 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 2: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make 577 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 2: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember 578 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed 579 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 2: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those 580 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 2: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having 581 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 2: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a 582 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 2: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent 583 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 2: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and 584 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 2: subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or 585 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 2: anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks