1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: I really appreciate your inquiring after my health. It means 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: a lot. Where are you right now? You're on your chair? 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: What does that mean Paris? Oh excuse me, madame. There 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: was a time when you were to have referred to 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: it as a balcony. Falcony la la, Okay, listen, I 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: have to I just have to say one thing, just 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: one thing. One can I tell you you're my wonder 8 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: From Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight 9 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: Today's episode. John right after the break. 10 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: I'm happy to do a three two one start if 11 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 2: it'll be helpful, but I also don't need to. 12 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: Let's do a three two one start. 13 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 2: I'll do it, and then you just do the work. 14 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: This is John Green, the author of some of the 15 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: most popular and beloved YA novels of the twenty first century, 16 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: books like The Fault in Our Stars three two one start. 17 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: We were so in sync it was like we were 18 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: singing do wa. But there's a version of John's life 19 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: in which none of his books exist. Because as a 20 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: young man in his twenties, John wanted to dedicate his 21 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: life to the church. 22 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 2: I wanted to become an ordained minister. I wanted to 23 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: go to Divinity School. 24 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: At the time, John was struggling with feelings of dread 25 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: and depression. He was searching for meaning and purpose. He 26 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: thought a life in the ministry might offer a way forward. 27 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: So that was the road that you were on. You 28 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: were going to go to Divinity school. 29 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I got in and then 30 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 2: I didn't go because why because of my time as 31 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 2: a chaplain. 32 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: In anticipation of Divinity school, John began an apprenticeship as 33 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: a chaplain and an Ohio children's hospital. Up until then, 34 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: John's relationship to his faith had been mostly philosophical. He 35 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: do a lot of thinking about God in the abstract, 36 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: but at the hospital his faith would be put to 37 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: the test as he dealt with actual people experiencing actual tragedy. 38 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: John was assigned to the children's cardiac and neurology units. 39 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: But I was twenty one years old. I mean it 40 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: was my first job. Like, it was my first job 41 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 2: other than working at Stake and Shake, and like I 42 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 2: was a shitty chaplain. 43 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: Why do you feel that way? 44 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: Oh? I mean I fainted, which is like you don't. 45 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: It's bad. You can't faint. You can't, you can't you 46 00:02:58,720 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: can't faint. 47 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: John Hope that with time he'd grown too the job, 48 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: but then came a night that made him question whether 49 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: he was suited for the job at all. A quick 50 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: word of warning, some of John's descriptions here are pretty graphic. 51 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 2: I think it was my third night on call, so 52 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: I was still really new at being a chaplain, and 53 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 2: I was reading a grief Observed by C. S. Lewis, 54 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 2: which is about the death of his wife, and the 55 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: trauma pager went off and it was a burn injury 56 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: three year old boy. I went downstairs to the emergency 57 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 2: department and there was this social worker who was like 58 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: a character out of a noir mystery novel. She was 59 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 2: just hard as fuck, and she handed me a mask 60 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: and a piece of gum. Why gum, because this the 61 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 2: smell of burns is so is so terrible. And then 62 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: this kid. They wheeled this kid in, you know, paramedics 63 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 2: on either side of him, and the kid was screaming, 64 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 2: scream just screaming, like just in obvious agony, and was 65 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: very very small. It was a brushfire, and my understanding 66 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: is that his dad had been like burning leaves and 67 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 2: like it it had like just gotten a little bit 68 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: out of it had just spread a little bit, and 69 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: then he went inside you down nine on when he 70 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: came back and the fire had like surrounded the kid. 71 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: There was this like staff room and I'd gone in 72 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 2: there to just have a cup of coffee, and this 73 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: young doctor was throwing up in the trash can and 74 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: really upset, and she said that that kid's gonna die. 75 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 2: And I remember his pediatrician came in. She went in 76 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: to the to the ICU and she came out and 77 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: she was just sobbing, and that freak. It just freaked 78 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 2: me out so badly because I'd never seen a doctor 79 00:05:52,839 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: react like that, you know. And so that that night 80 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: was a very long night. Took the parents into this 81 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 2: this windowless family room. After after a while, I stayed 82 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: up all night with the with his parents, And the 83 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: next morning, at eight a m. I handed over the 84 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: pager and I drove. I drove home and I got 85 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: in the shower and I was in the shower for 86 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 2: like an hour and a half and I couldn't I 87 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 2: couldn't stop smelling the burn, and I I just couldn't 88 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: stop thinking about this kid and his parents, and I 89 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: also was I I was also frankly really relieved. Not 90 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: you know that, I got to go home, I got 91 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 2: to hand off the pager, and I knew that they wouldn't. 92 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 1: When John went back to work the next day, the 93 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: little boy, whose name was Nick was no longer there, 94 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: and that was the last John heard about him. 95 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: I couldn't see I couldn't see God within those experiences. 96 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 2: I just couldn't. And I thought, you know, if how 97 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 2: can you do this as a job if part of 98 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: you is sitting there thinking, you know, the God I 99 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: am calling to be present in this moment. I don't 100 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: feel present in this moment. 101 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: John was losing his faith. 102 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: Spent the last months of my period as a chaplain 103 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: knowing full well that I wasn't going to go to 104 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 2: Divinity School and I wasn't going to become a minister. Well, 105 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: I was never I wasn't going to be a minister. 106 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: Without Divinity School, John had to rethink his whole life. 107 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: He'd always seen his writing in service to the sermons 108 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: he planned to give, but now there would be no sermons. 109 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: In fact, John had stopped going to church entirely, yet 110 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: his love of writing remained, so he got temp work 111 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: at a magazine and eventually found his footing as a writer, 112 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: but his time as a chaplain at the children's hospital, 113 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: and specifically that night with Nick, kept finding its way 114 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: into his books. In Looking for Alaska, the death of 115 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: a young boy's friend raises questions about the meaning of life. 116 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: In the Fault in Our Stars, two teenagers with cancer 117 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: fall in love. 118 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 2: There are versions of me trying to make sense of 119 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 2: that time in my life. 120 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: Throughout the years of trying to make sense through writing, 121 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 1: through therapy, John still couldn't get Nick off his mind. 122 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 2: I knew I could google him, you know. I knew 123 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 2: I could google the family. I remembered the parents' names. 124 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: They have an unusual surname. I knew it would not 125 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 2: be hard. I would think, I should just know, I 126 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: should just it would be better to know if he died, 127 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 2: And then I would go back and I would say, like, no, 128 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 2: you don't. You don't want to know. You don't like, 129 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: you don't want to know that he's dead. You definitely don't. 130 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 2: I mean, there were a few times when I literally 131 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 2: typed his name into the Google search bar and then 132 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: didn't hit search. And now I have, you know, and 133 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 2: now I have kids of my own and when my 134 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: kids were that age. I saw them both on that 135 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 2: on that gurney again and again. I'd still think about 136 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 2: him and his parents every single day, and I have 137 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: for twenty years now, so half my life. 138 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: But it was more than just John thinking about Even 139 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: after he'd stopped going to church, had told himself that 140 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: he no longer believed. Every night during those twenty years, 141 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: John prayed for Nick and his family. 142 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: I've prayed for them, even in periods when I didn't 143 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: really believe in prayer. I don't think I literally don't 144 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 2: think I've prayed for anyone every day, excep this one kid, 145 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 2: Like I don't know that I've prayed for my children. 146 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: Then one day, after years of obsessing over Nick's fate, 147 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: John had a new thought. 148 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: You know, maybe he is maybe he is alive. You 149 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: don't know, how do you know? Like you're basing this 150 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 2: decade plus of worry on one thing that one distraught 151 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: doctor said to you, like while heaving into a trash can, 152 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 2: Like you don't know. 153 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: So once again John type Nick's name into the search bar, 154 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: but this time he hit search. 155 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 2: And it was quite easy. You know, I was the 156 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 2: thirty seconds between when I googled him, and when I 157 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: was at his Facebook and he was alive, alive, and 158 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: his parents were married, and I I just just sobbed. 159 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: I just felt like I was just so glad that 160 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: he was alive. And I also felt like it reminded 161 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: me of how glad I am that everyone is alive, 162 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 2: if that makes any sense. 163 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: What do you mean? 164 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: That is just just an absolute fucking miracle that any 165 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 2: of us is here. And I just I was just 166 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 2: so I was relieved, but I was also like just 167 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 2: overjoyed and and and so sad. I I can't I 168 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 2: can't describe how it felt. I just remember like going 169 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 2: into his like Facebook likes at just like laughing and 170 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: crying and being like this kid and I have nothing, 171 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 2: nothing in coffee and I and I'm so glad that 172 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: he is here. 173 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 1: You know, with the relief of knowing that Nick's out 174 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: there living alife, John has begun considering a new question, 175 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: is it a good life? 176 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 2: I want to I want to know that. I want 177 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: to know that he's he's he's okay, that he's doing that, 178 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 2: he's doing okay. 179 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and what what what does that? What does that 180 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: mean for you? Because like you've seen his Facebook. 181 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you know anybody with a Facebook who's unhappy though, 182 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 2: or like who has like a tough I don't know. 183 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: So John wants to talk with Nick, but at the 184 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: same time, he's plagued by worry what would be the 185 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: outcome of his reaching out? What did be in it 186 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: for Nick? John tries to answer those questions by putting 187 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: himself in nick shoes. 188 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 2: I can see how maybe it's helpful to him to 189 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: know that there's this person out there who, you know, 190 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 2: thinks about him every day and and and hopes that 191 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: he's well every day, and you know, like I know, 192 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 2: it means something to me to hear that there was 193 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 2: someone out there who was who was wishing me well, 194 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: even from a great distance. 195 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: After the break, reaching out from a great distance. 196 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 2: I think I can hear you now, Can you hear me? Yeah? 197 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: I can hear you? 198 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 2: All right? Hi, here's a clap just in case that's useful. 199 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: Later John had written Nick a letter and Nick was 200 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: up for talking. It's the middle of the pandemic, so 201 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: a video call is arranged. 202 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 2: I feel nervous, really nervous. I didn't sleep well last night, 203 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 2: and I just boy. 204 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: John is seated in his Indianapolis basement and I'm in 205 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: my Minneapolis recording closet. We both stare anxiously at our 206 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: laptops waiting for Nick to appear on screen. 207 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm excited. I want to talk to him, 208 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 2: you know, It's just I just have no idea how 209 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: it's going to go. 210 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: You interviewed Obama, did you not? I did, so this 211 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: is more nerve racking. Less nerve racking. 212 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: Oh no, this is much more nerve racking. 213 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: In a bid to distract John from his nerves, I 214 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: regale him with episode recaps of a TV show that 215 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: went off the air in two thousand and six, Deadwood. 216 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: It was like the scariest town in the world. If 217 00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: I lived in the Old West, I would just like 218 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: slither on my belly, like just staring at the ground 219 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: and apologizing, like just to stay out of trouble, like 220 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: no pride. And I'd get a family, teach them to 221 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: slither on their bellies and stare at out. 222 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: Here we go. 223 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: It's in this moment that Nick enters the video call Nick, Hello. 224 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 2: Hi. 225 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: Nick is now in his early twenties. He has brown, 226 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: tussled hair and big eyes. His face is contemplative, as 227 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: he studies John carefully seeing Nick from the shoulders up. 228 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: There aren't any scars or burns. 229 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: Can I can I start by just asking like, how 230 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: how you're doing? Are you? Are you at home right now? 231 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 3: I am school online, finish my undergraduate last year, and 232 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 3: I'm in graduate school. So everything's going well. 233 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great. Wow. So you're so school's all online? 234 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 2: What are you studying? 235 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 3: Masters in Business administration at the moment? 236 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: Oh that's great, congratulations, thank you. 237 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: Unlike John, Nick seems very much at ease. He's calm 238 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: and attentive, waiting to see where the conversation will go. 239 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: John asks some questions about himself, and Nick answers. He 240 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: lives in a small rural town, he's enrolled in Bible College, 241 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: and in fact, Nick is a devout Baptist. 242 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 2: I wanted to ask what you thought when you got 243 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: the letter. 244 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 3: When I initially got your letter, I called one of 245 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 3: my friends from school and asked who this person was. 246 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 3: So he said, oh, yeah, they made a movie from 247 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 3: a book. He wrote, Well, oh okay, Well after. 248 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: Google that, Nick never got around to googling that. So 249 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: to Nick, John is a stranger. Well to John, Nick's 250 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: a presence he's lived with for the past twenty years. 251 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 2: So I was the chaplain at the hospital that you 252 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 2: came into, and I don't do you remember anything about 253 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 2: that day? 254 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I can remember being burned. Where my 255 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 3: memories of that day start were at the back door 256 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 3: of the garage and my mother's going to the store. 257 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 3: I was going to stay with my father, and my 258 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 3: father was going to clean up some stuff, you know, 259 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 3: burning boxes and trash and other things like that. I 260 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 3: can remember being in the field and the flames and 261 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 3: my father carrying me to the house. I can remember 262 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 3: my father trying to put out the fire and putting 263 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 3: water on me in the garage, and flashes of being 264 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 3: on the helicopter. One of the things that stands out 265 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 3: to me is is a memory of how cold the 266 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 3: scissors were that they cut my clothes off with. The 267 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 3: day I was burned, I was wearing the small lace 268 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 3: up cowboy boots you know that you see at rural supplies. 269 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 3: They are more of a novelty than anything. I remember that, 270 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 3: But because I had leather shoes on, you know, you 271 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 3: can actually see where the fire stopped melting my leg 272 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 3: right at the line of those boots on my right foot, 273 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 3: and if it hadn't been for those, it would have 274 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 3: been much, much worse. 275 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: After the night of the fire, Nick was sent to 276 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: recover at a hospital for burn victims, and in the 277 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 1: years afterwards, tissue was always getting infected. Throughout his childhood, 278 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: Nick was constantly in and out of the hospital. There 279 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: was always the fear that he might not survive. To 280 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 1: this day, Nick's right hand is so stitched together that 281 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: there were parts of it he can't feel. 282 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 3: It is what it is this point, This is. 283 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: Nick's refrain when talking about the fire and its effect. 284 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: It is what it is. 285 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 2: Are you still in pain? 286 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 3: It's one of those things where anybody else would probably 287 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 3: say yes, And I don't mean to sound that way. 288 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 3: They've never been burned. They don't understand what that constant 289 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 3: background noise of pain is like. But at a certain 290 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 3: point you just ignore it or it's just a constant 291 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 3: so it's normal. It is what it is. I would 292 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 3: definitely like to not have been burned and to not 293 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 3: deal with the daily things that come with that, but 294 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 3: it brought my family to Christ in a way that 295 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 3: it would not have otherwise. 296 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: It was only after the accident that a friend invited 297 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: Nick's family to a local church. They began attending with regularity. 298 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: Before that, they've been Christian in name only. So to Nick, 299 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: the fire brought him to the most important thing in 300 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: his life. It brought him to God. Because of that 301 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: day in the er, Nick and his family's faith was 302 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: made stronger. Well, John's was made weaker. 303 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 2: One of the things I wanted to ask you is 304 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 2: how you knowing that terrible things can happen to kids, 305 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 2: to innocent kids, having experienced that yourself, how you how 306 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 2: you square that with your faith? 307 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 3: It took quite a long time for me to reconcile 308 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 3: that with God, and I spent a while quite angry. 309 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 3: I guess the way I look at it, it was 310 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 3: a harsh mercy. Theologically speaking, for those who love God, 311 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,479 Speaker 3: everything is supposed to work for their good, and if 312 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 3: you look at it in that light, the world definitely 313 00:20:54,800 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 3: makes more sense. The Lord does allow some evil, but 314 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 3: in the end, the evil works for. 315 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: Good, and Nixy's a lot of good in his life. 316 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,239 Speaker 1: He's grateful for his parents, who stood by him all 317 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: throughout his recovery, his grandfather, who tirelessly combed through stores 318 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: searching for a lotion that might offer relief, the teachers 319 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: who helped him in and out of his pressure garments. 320 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 3: You know, the Lord put certain people in my life 321 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 3: for a reason. I grew up in public schools, and yeah, 322 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 3: there were some people there that didn't quite understand why 323 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 3: I looked the way I looked. But the community did 324 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 3: everything they could to educate the kids around me as 325 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 3: to why I had scar tissue, why I had plastic 326 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 3: face mask on. 327 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 2: I think that it's so easy to be merely angry 328 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 2: after that, And I think I might be merely angry, 329 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 2: to be honest, I might be merely angry if it 330 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 2: happened to my kid. I might be mere angry if 331 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 2: it happened to me. 332 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 3: You know. It's just, you know, the Devil's always trying 333 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 3: to tempt you and draw you astray, and and I 334 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 3: think that's one of the things he uses against me, is, oh, 335 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 3: how could this happen to you? You know, why would 336 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 3: such a merciful and loving god let this happen to you? 337 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 3: You know? And if you look at it like that, 338 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 3: then you know the Devil's won. 339 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: You know, I don't. I don't usually think about it 340 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 2: in in uh terms of good and evil really, but 341 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 2: a lot of life is a battle against despair because 342 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 2: I have serious mental health problems. Nick despair, nihilism, hopelessness, 343 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 2: there forms of this this why that my brain sometimes 344 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,959 Speaker 2: tries to tell me about out being a person, being alive, consciousness, 345 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 2: that it's all empty, it's all meaningless, and I have 346 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 2: to find ways of holding on to hope. 347 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 3: Good the sadness and the you know, the desperation about it. 348 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 3: I don't know that that'll ever go away entirely. I 349 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 3: struggle with, you know, feeling down sometimes. But then again, 350 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 3: I don't want to be that lonely person sequestered in 351 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 3: a house somewhere. So you know, I'm going to move 352 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 3: on and I'm going to just be the person I 353 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 3: want to be. 354 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: So an answer to John's question, has it been a 355 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: good life, the answer is yes, because Nick is determined 356 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: to make it one. 357 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 2: From what the doctor said, I thought, I thought that 358 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 2: that you were likely to die, and h most of 359 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: the last you know, eighteen years, I thought that I 360 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 2: thought that you had died, and and and so I would, 361 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 2: I would. I would pray for you every night and 362 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 2: for your family, and I wanted to get I wanted 363 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: to get in touch with you. If I could to 364 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 2: say that I think of you often and I and 365 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: I hope that's okay. I hope it's I hope it's 366 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 2: okay that I pray for you and your family. If 367 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 2: it's not, I'll stop. 368 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 3: You know, I'm just I'm glad that somebody was always 369 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 3: praying for me. Is there Definitely, We're definitely times where 370 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:55,719 Speaker 3: it was necessary. 371 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: Without doubt, Nick is grateful for John's prayer, but overall, 372 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: I get the feeling that some things, some crucial things, 373 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: are in place in Nick's life. His family is close knit, 374 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: his life has purpose, He's secure in his faith, but 375 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: he can tell John is struggling. To him, John's not 376 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: this famous writer, but someone who came to him heavy hearted. 377 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: So as to John's prayers, Nick points out someone else 378 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 1: who might have benefited from them. 379 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 3: John praying for me, I really hope that's helped keep 380 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 3: the dialogue between you and the Lord fluid and going. 381 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: You know, I never thought of it that way, Nick, 382 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 2: But it is true that on the days when I 383 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 2: prayed for nothing else and felt no real meaning in prayer, 384 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: that I still prayed for you and for your family, 385 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 2: and that that was a point of connection. 386 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: At a time when religion stopped making sense to John, 387 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: at a time when he felt like he couldn't reasonably 388 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: pray for himself or his family, he still hungered for 389 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: something that went beyond reason, And in those moments there 390 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: was Nick. As we near the end of the call, 391 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: that moment when hands would be shaken or hugs exchanged, 392 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: John and Nick instead stare at each other through their 393 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: computer screens. 394 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 3: It's definitely remarkable to see, you know, an individual that 395 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 3: came into my life at such a dramatic event and 396 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 3: for such a short amount of time, and to have 397 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 3: made such an impact in this I can definitely see 398 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 3: the Lord working. 399 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 2: Part of what's wild is that you, you know, you 400 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 2: don't look like you did when you are three years 401 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,959 Speaker 2: old or whatever, but like you look, I recognize you. 402 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 2: I recognize you. But at the same time there's the 403 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,239 Speaker 2: shock of looking at you and seeing an adult, and 404 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 2: so it's just it's really great to see you grown up. 405 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 2: Thank you. How old are you now? Twenty four? God, 406 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 2: it's crazy to think that I was younger then than 407 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 2: you are now. I was just a kid. 408 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: What is the rest of your day looking like Nick? 409 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 3: Well, I have some schoolwork to do, and I'm gonna 410 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 3: go get a cup of coffee, bring my grandmother's horse 411 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 3: in for the evening, and feed the chickens and just 412 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 3: hang out with the family and you, John. 413 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 2: I also need to feed the chickens this afternoon. I'm 414 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 2: going to pick up my kids from school and then 415 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 2: we're going to go over and I'll probably I'll probably 416 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 2: tell them about this, to be honest with you, Nick Good. 417 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: After getting off the call, John picks up his son 418 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 1: Henry from school. He tells Henry about talking to Nick, 419 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: and Henry has questions like where does Nick live and 420 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: how is Nick doing. John thinks back to when we 421 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: first spoke, how all he wanted was to know that 422 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 1: Nick was doing okay. I'd asked what that meant and 423 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: he couldn't say for sure, But in retrospect, he realizes 424 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: he wanted to know that Nick was loved, and now 425 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: he knows he is by his family and through his 426 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: faith by God. John struggles for a way to share 427 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: all this with Henry, but he doesn't quite know how 428 00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: to say it, so instead he tells Henry that it's 429 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: like Nack is doing okay. 430 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 3: Now that the fernentures returned into. 431 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 2: Its goodwill home. 432 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 3: Now that the last month's rant is scheming with. 433 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 2: The damaged bottle, take this moment to decide if we 434 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: imagine flee to Felder from the last accident. Please. 435 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Senior producer Khalila 436 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: Holt along with Stevie Lane, Moheeny mcgouker, and me Jonathan Goldstein. 437 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Emily Condon, Reverend Patricia Sheldon, Alex Bloomberg, 438 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: Caitlin Kenny, Gabby Bulgarelli, and Jackie Cohen. Bobby Lord mixed 439 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. 440 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: Sampson and Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found 441 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: on our website, Gimbletmedia dot com slash Heavyweight. Our theme 442 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: song is by the Weaker Dance courtesy of Epidaph Records. 443 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight or email us at 444 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: Heavyweight at Gimletmedia dot com. And if you're looking for 445 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: something new to listen to, I would heartily encourage you 446 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: to check out John's podcast. It is called The Anthropristine 447 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: Review and it's a personal favorite of mine. I really 448 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: love it. As for us, we'll be back with a 449 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: new episode in two weeks.