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Speaker 1: We simply don't know the answer too. Hi there, welcome
Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your host for
Speaker 1: this week, Joe, joined as usual by and Steve and uh,
Speaker 1: the team this week there, we're going to tackle another
Speaker 1: really awesome mystery. H First off, I'd like to thank
Speaker 1: Sean who suggested this like two years ago at least.
Speaker 1: So thanks Sean. Appreciate it. Kind of an interesting little
Speaker 1: story here. It's great, Yeah, began murder is always fun
Speaker 1: ours definitely. Yeah. I just picked up a book about
Speaker 1: the Victorians and murder and the evolution of the murder mystery,
Speaker 1: and the authors I think sums it up very nicely,
Speaker 1: is that people really love murder. In this author of
Speaker 1: this book, it's called The Invention of Murder, and she
Speaker 1: describes it quite well. It's that people really love murder.
Speaker 1: It's like listening to to a big rainstorm when you're
Speaker 1: inside your house and the heaters on your warm and
Speaker 1: snug and dry. That's why it's like murders great when
Speaker 1: it's happened to somebody else, and it's really true. I
Speaker 1: saw that book at your table, and that thing will
Speaker 1: hold your door open. It's a huge book. It's a
Speaker 1: big old book. It got a lot of great blurbs.
Speaker 1: There we go. Yeah, so that's a sign of success.
Speaker 1: It must be good. I'm only about five pages in
Speaker 1: so far, so we'll see. Uh back to our thing though.
Speaker 1: Uh So our murder mystery began on Valentine's Day, that
Speaker 1: would be February fourteen, and it happened in the village
Speaker 1: of Lower Quinton in Warwickshire, England. Lower Quintin is about
Speaker 1: six miles south of Stratford upon Avon, whish we will
Speaker 1: all know is the birthplace of the sex Pistols. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's all it's known for him. Yeah, this is This
Speaker 1: might be the closest I've been to one of our
Speaker 1: European mysteries. Actually, I was in Stratford upon Avon once.
Speaker 1: I've also been there. Yeah, so about six miles away
Speaker 1: from from the murder. I probably drove by it, he
Speaker 1: probably did. Yeah, it's kind of in the middle of everything,
Speaker 1: so it's very easy to drop through there. Uh, national
Speaker 1: to place. I like Stratford. I think that's where I
Speaker 1: saw my first European McDonald's. Yeah, but it was tastefully done.
Speaker 1: They did a good job, Thank God for that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now that now that we've got that out of the way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they did a good job of incorporating into the local architecture. Uh.
Speaker 1: I'll back to Clinton or Quinton. Lord Quintin is a tight,
Speaker 1: tiny village of four hundred nine three people at the time.
Speaker 1: Of course it's a little bigger today. And it was
Speaker 1: as the scene of a murder. And actually it was
Speaker 1: a pretty horrific murder. You guys have read about this.
Speaker 1: It was pretty nasty, pretty brutal on February four and
Speaker 1: but as if the murder wasn't bad enough, soon there
Speaker 1: were allegations and rumors of supernatural activities and witchcraft that
Speaker 1: began circulating around town and coming to the attention of
Speaker 1: the police and the press, and the case became known
Speaker 1: as the witchcraft murder. So that's what we're talking about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the witchcraft murder pretty well known in Britain. I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: they've been running with it for a while. Uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: they have been. Uh and it's yeah. Scotland Yard actually
Speaker 1: did a very extensive investigation of this murder because originally
Speaker 1: that the local constable called the Stratford police to come
Speaker 1: and investigate and they felt like they were in a
Speaker 1: little bit over their heads, so they called in Scotland
Speaker 1: Yard to investigate this and uh, and I guess who
Speaker 1: shows up but Robert Fabian, fame detective. They did a
Speaker 1: TV show about him called Fabian of the Yard. I
Speaker 1: think it was two years that ran in or during
Speaker 1: his ten year as a detective stuff. I think that
Speaker 1: might have been actually retired and they started writing books
Speaker 1: about his too much longer though, yeah, not not much longer.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he was still alive and so they That
Speaker 1: wasn't one of the earliest TV shows in the BBC. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as Joe would say, he parlayed his career at Scotland
Speaker 1: Yard into a lucrative career as an author and then
Speaker 1: turning that into this TV series. That's my plan with
Speaker 1: this podcast actually, yeah, it's probably I'm gonna give it
Speaker 1: about another year and then I'm gonna cut and run
Speaker 1: and just like turn it into some Nancy Grace ask. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can steal the domain from this and all the passwords. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm going to start writing novels about it, like you know,
Speaker 1: like say, dB keeper gets winned the fact that I'm
Speaker 1: hot on his trail and he starts to murder us all.
Speaker 1: You know. So that would be a kind of a
Speaker 1: good Hardy Boys esque kind of mystery. Yeah. So I'll
Speaker 1: probably never get around to it, actually, but it would
Speaker 1: be fun go back to our mystery here called in
Speaker 1: ye Robert Fabian was called in. Much investigating was done,
Speaker 1: and they came up with basically nothing. And it didn't
Speaker 1: really help that none of the people of Laura Quinton
Speaker 1: were actually willing to admit knowing anything about the murder. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I think that this episode, the whole thing about
Speaker 1: Laura Quinton and the Witchcraft murders, I think it became
Speaker 1: a basis for a theme that we've seen in movies
Speaker 1: and TV shows, et cetera, which is the tiny town
Speaker 1: with the dark, dark secret, you know, the I'm talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, and the protagonist, like you know, it gets
Speaker 1: some guy out of the corner who's about to tell
Speaker 1: the truth, and then somebody else shouts him down and says,
Speaker 1: shut the hold up. Such a bloody goot, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about? Right, Yeah, yeah, we're all seeing that.
Speaker 1: And I think that might have originated here, the big
Speaker 1: wall of silenced. I just can't imagine that this is
Speaker 1: the first time that's ever happened. But maybe, yeah, probably not.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I didn't start out with ken McElroy. It
Speaker 1: actually happened earlier than Kenya believe it or not. Realistically,
Speaker 1: like I said, I bet it happened before it could
Speaker 1: have been. And I know we're going to bring it up.
Speaker 1: But the press really got a hold of this, the
Speaker 1: British press, and so there's a lot of stuff in
Speaker 1: here that is kind of fun to unpack and see
Speaker 1: where the truth really lies. Yeah, and part of that
Speaker 1: the villagers wouldn't talk, I feel is in there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think we get a little little ahead of ourselves here,
Speaker 1: and she probably start with the victim and we're here. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I guess we haven't even said who died yet. I know,
Speaker 1: I know that's that's talk about that. Charles Walton, a K. Charlie,
Speaker 1: I was born in Lower Quenttin in eighteen seventy And
Speaker 1: did you have a prinsity for biting fingers? That's a
Speaker 1: good question. I don't know's that cultural reference I'm not getting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I figured as much. Yeah. So I've got his biography here,
Speaker 1: I've I've drotted it down and I've condensed it to
Speaker 1: about ten pages, So settle in. It's gonna be about
Speaker 1: three hours now, just kidding. Uh. There was a period
Speaker 1: Charlie's adolescence when he went off to a boarding school
Speaker 1: called ward Hogs or something, like that was that for
Speaker 1: witches and wizards and a train station nine and three
Speaker 1: quarters nobody really knows, okay, but yeah. After his return
Speaker 1: to Lower Quentin And, Charlie had a fairly normal life
Speaker 1: working as a farm laborer. Uh. He was reported to
Speaker 1: have a gift for animals. In his youth. He was
Speaker 1: a good horse trainer, and it was said that birds
Speaker 1: would flock to him and eat out of his hand.
Speaker 1: So he was a disney princess apparently. Uh, he could
Speaker 1: tame wild dogs with a few words. Disney princess. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And although he wasn't a friendly guy, and he was
Speaker 1: generally well regarded by the villagers, he kind of kept
Speaker 1: to himself, and when he was seeing at the local pub,
Speaker 1: he was usually sitting at a quarner by himself, sipping
Speaker 1: on an ail and puffing on his pipe with his
Speaker 1: perfectly normal red bluing coals where his eyes should have
Speaker 1: been inserted. That yeah, um line, It's hard to know
Speaker 1: with Charlie's bio exactly where the life ends and the
Speaker 1: fiction begins. I could I could guess by the things
Speaker 1: that he was dealing with in life that he might
Speaker 1: have been a little standoffish, just because of the things
Speaker 1: that he went through, which I knew we're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about here shortly. But I don't think that he was
Speaker 1: some crazy lunar, no, no. I think he was sociable enough,
Speaker 1: but he just he just wasn't the kind of guy
Speaker 1: that actually got out and hung out in the pubble lot.
Speaker 1: For one thing, he wasn't that wealthy. He probably didn't
Speaker 1: have a lot of money to spread around, so he
Speaker 1: probably didn't go down there and waste a lot of
Speaker 1: money on on guinness and stuff. But he was generally,
Speaker 1: like I said, pretty well regarded by the villagers. Charlie
Speaker 1: lived in a rented cottage in Lower Quinton with his
Speaker 1: wife Uh and then when his sister died, they adopted
Speaker 1: her daughter, Edith, who was also known as d And
Speaker 1: that was she was at the age of three right then.
Speaker 1: And then in next seven Charlie's wife died and and
Speaker 1: he and Edith continued to live on in the same
Speaker 1: cottage and they lived there for years up until he
Speaker 1: died and uh and by the way, he edith dad
Speaker 1: apparently was still alive. Apparently he was not interested in
Speaker 1: raising her, So that's why Charlie and his wife adopted Edith. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: nice of them, I thought, Yeah, yeah, stepped up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also, as I mentioned, the year was, which is
Speaker 1: most of you probably know, that was when the war
Speaker 1: in Europe was when down World War two. That's what
Speaker 1: it said in all the newsreels. Yeah, yeah, the other
Speaker 1: Great war. Yeah, the next Great War. Yeah, it wasn't
Speaker 1: that great. It was big, but it wasn't great. It
Speaker 1: was great for some people, but it really sucked for
Speaker 1: most people. Yeah, yeah, big time. But V Day, which
Speaker 1: was victory in Europe, that was just a few months away.
Speaker 1: The Allies were doing really well. They were winning all
Speaker 1: over the place, and the world was pretty much a
Speaker 1: done deal. Everybody seemed to agree. Germany had not yet surrendered,
Speaker 1: but it was just a matter of time. And at
Speaker 1: that time there were some Italian POWs who are being
Speaker 1: held at a prison camp nearby called Long Marston. The
Speaker 1: Long Marston I was able to find. They keep talking
Speaker 1: about it when I hear about it. Is Long Marston
Speaker 1: was nearby. The only one I can find in Google
Speaker 1: is like fifty miles away, like to the southeast. But
Speaker 1: there must But you know, there could have been another
Speaker 1: Long Marston that was closer or isn't about far away.
Speaker 1: That's true. It isn't really because there's you know, automobiles
Speaker 1: are everywhere, that's true. And yeah, and so you know
Speaker 1: it could have been. But uh, And the only reason
Speaker 1: I mentioned that the Italian POWs is because they actually
Speaker 1: do play a small part in this mystery, as you
Speaker 1: guys probably know. Yeah, because they're foreigners, and hey, there's murder.
Speaker 1: Obviously you look at the foreigners first, right, That's the
Speaker 1: way it was. Yeah, it kind of is. And so anyway,
Speaker 1: at this point I probably really offended our Italian listener, Luigi.
Speaker 1: I'm very sorry. I'm just kidding, guy. Uh, the Italians
Speaker 1: didn't do it. Actually, I'm pretty sure they were prisoners,
Speaker 1: but they were actually being held under pretty relaxed conditions
Speaker 1: and they could actually leave and come and go say please.
Speaker 1: And actually on the day of the murder, some of
Speaker 1: the POWs went into Stratford to watch us Shakespeare play
Speaker 1: and some other ones want to see a movie. That's
Speaker 1: how relaxed it was. I mean, if you were going
Speaker 1: to be a pow in World War Two, you wanted
Speaker 1: to be these guys. Did you do any reading on
Speaker 1: the camps in Britain at that time, so I did
Speaker 1: a lot. I didn't do a huge amount, but I did.
Speaker 1: I was just kind of curious about how they were
Speaker 1: running because this whole they were free to kind of
Speaker 1: come and go. Things struck me a little strange. And
Speaker 1: this isn't the first time we've talked about this, I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure, but what I found is that the Italians
Speaker 1: were being brought into Britain from about nineteen forty or
Speaker 1: forty one forward, and they had pretty lax rules and
Speaker 1: they were pretty willing to go ahead and be laborers
Speaker 1: for the community. That's kind of how they were. That
Speaker 1: was their job while they were in the area, so
Speaker 1: they were doing farm labor, So they were they most
Speaker 1: of them seemed to be okay with it. They were
Speaker 1: probably happiest hell to be out of the war. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's the thing is that there was there's stuff
Speaker 1: that you find where there's some who were still they'll
Speaker 1: see on the wall still written Viva Mussolini, But most
Speaker 1: of the guys are like, we don't know who wrote that. No,
Speaker 1: we're we're totally happy. It's really but it's funny is
Speaker 1: that the tone from camp to camp changed. I found
Speaker 1: in the reading from about forward, because the camps that
Speaker 1: German soldiers were sent to suddenly had a much stronger
Speaker 1: security on them. And I'm sure that that is because
Speaker 1: the Italians were just these kind of nice guys, but
Speaker 1: the Germans are demonic and we've we can't let them
Speaker 1: lose though, old the women and children kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So I'm sure that this uh, this what is this
Speaker 1: camp name again? Yeah, long Marston. I'm sure that it
Speaker 1: was probably one of the ones that didn't have any
Speaker 1: German po or many German POWs, and therefore they were
Speaker 1: going out working in the area on farms, and that's
Speaker 1: how the system kind of got a little loose. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Crazy what happens when you start thinking about the fact
Speaker 1: that soldiers are just like human beings by and large,
Speaker 1: like young men probably are totally cool dudes who just
Speaker 1: happened to be fighting for the country they happened to
Speaker 1: be born in, and like don't really have any kind
Speaker 1: of serious thing against the people they were fighting against.
Speaker 1: You know that some of those POW's in the Italians,
Speaker 1: there was some rule. I want to say it's for
Speaker 1: the Geneva Convention, but it's probably not, but there was
Speaker 1: some rule where it became a thing that Italian men
Speaker 1: their wives could emigrate over and live with them in
Speaker 1: the pow camp so that the family wasn't separated. That
Speaker 1: was an okay thing, that it was common enough that
Speaker 1: you find it in the writings. It's not as if
Speaker 1: it was a weirdo one or two off thing. Again
Speaker 1: according to you know, compared to the experiences of most
Speaker 1: other POWs you know, that were being held by the Axis. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it should probably be noted too that at that time
Speaker 1: nineteen I mean, I think Mussolini was deposed, but in
Speaker 1: ninety three he eventually was rescued by the Germans and
Speaker 1: they reconstituted us sort of many fascist republic in northern Italy.
Speaker 1: When the Germans invaded and took over that part of it,
Speaker 1: and there was an anti fascists, you know, anti Mussolini
Speaker 1: faction in the southern parts. So Italy was the middle
Speaker 1: of the Civil War at this time. It might have
Speaker 1: been that that all of these guys, if not most
Speaker 1: of them, actually felt no loyalty at all to Mussolini
Speaker 1: at this point in time. Well, and I'll just point
Speaker 1: out that as far as I know, as far as
Speaker 1: you know, there was no huge like crime wave that
Speaker 1: came of these being in that area. So we can
Speaker 1: pretty much discount that. We're not in theories the Italian
Speaker 1: I think. So you never know, I mean, there could
Speaker 1: be outliers in there, but yeah, well population, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: do we want to keep talking about Charlie's Let's talk
Speaker 1: more about Charlie and off off the Italians for a while.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Charlie. He at this time was working, Uh,
Speaker 1: he was. He didn't have a farm of his own.
Speaker 1: He was a laborer, but he worked at various farms
Speaker 1: in the area. And at this time he had been
Speaker 1: working at a local farm called the Furs and he'd
Speaker 1: been there about nine months. And his job that day
Speaker 1: was to clear hedges. And so, as you know in Britain,
Speaker 1: they've got those head hedgerows that sort of separate fields
Speaker 1: and separate roads from fields and stuff like that. And
Speaker 1: of course with hedges, you know you wanted to grow up,
Speaker 1: not out, but they being hedges, they want to grow out.
Speaker 1: So you gotta cooperate. Now you gotta whack him back,
Speaker 1: and so that's what he was doing. He left his
Speaker 1: house around nine am and by the his house is
Speaker 1: still there. You can see pictures of it on the
Speaker 1: Worldwide Web. It is still there. Yeah. I must not
Speaker 1: have even just made the connection when I saw the picture. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's still there. Uh. He had it was like
Speaker 1: a like three interconnected cottages that eventually somebody bought combined
Speaker 1: him into one nice big house. But apparently so the
Speaker 1: structure is still yeah. Yeah, it's cool. Well, nobody got
Speaker 1: murdered there. They got murdered somewhere else, thank god. So
Speaker 1: he headed up on the furs. There's this thing called
Speaker 1: Mayon Hill. Although I might be mispronouncing that. It might
Speaker 1: be me On, but I think it's may On. And
Speaker 1: so he started clearing hedge and this is at nine
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. On Apparently he was seeing walk
Speaker 1: in that direction about not between nine and nine um.
Speaker 1: And he was carrying his walking stick because he had
Speaker 1: arthritis too. He was he was like seventy five. He
Speaker 1: was born in eighteen seventy, so he was seventy four
Speaker 1: and still working in the fields. This is nineteen huh.
Speaker 1: So his birthday was in May eighteen seventies, so this
Speaker 1: is February. So yeah, he had turned Yeah, see it
Speaker 1: his walking stick. I got his walking stick as he
Speaker 1: had already and uh, he also had him with him
Speaker 1: that he just abbreviated our you do. Don't don't be
Speaker 1: abbreviating like that. Yeah, let's see what else. The ide
Speaker 1: had a pitchfork and he had a slash hook, which
Speaker 1: were his tools with the trade. Uh. And I know
Speaker 1: you all know what a pitchfork is. If you don't
Speaker 1: hold your hand up in front of you with your
Speaker 1: fingers extended. Now rotate your hand now, is it a
Speaker 1: two or three pronged pitchfork? I never question. I mean
Speaker 1: most of the ones you see are like, are like
Speaker 1: four prong ones. I saw one on the BBC that
Speaker 1: was actually a two pronged pitchforks. That's why I'm asking.
Speaker 1: I think the older ones were too prong I believe
Speaker 1: it was a two prong Yeah. Again, hard to say,
Speaker 1: but I think it was. As far as the slash
Speaker 1: hook goes, I've seen pictures of the slash hooks and
Speaker 1: they're all they come in all different style. A lot
Speaker 1: of them are sort of shaped like a sickle, like
Speaker 1: curvesickle with a long hand knife on one edge and
Speaker 1: straight edge on the other. Yeah, kind of like that,
Speaker 1: kind of shaped almost like a cowboy boot. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: kind of yeah, kind of kind of a nice little
Speaker 1: thing for clear and broun. Okay, you look at me. Funny.
Speaker 1: It was just not a way I would have thought
Speaker 1: to describe it. But it's pretty good. Or it looks
Speaker 1: like Italy for Italy, if you grabbed Europe and turn
Speaker 1: it upside Yeah, alright, so yeah I say that, you
Speaker 1: know I did that. Italy totally looks like a slash hook. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they're totally right. Yeah, yeah, And uh, of course
Speaker 1: the slash work, besides being a great brush clearing tool,
Speaker 1: would be a great murder weapon. Apparently, yeah, it really
Speaker 1: would be. And actually, when you think about the walking
Speaker 1: stick that he was carrying, and also the pitchwork wouldn't
Speaker 1: be such bad murder weapons either. And as it happens,
Speaker 1: Charlie carried all the murder weapons to the place where
Speaker 1: he was killed, because appears that all of them were
Speaker 1: used on him. And that's that's what I did. I
Speaker 1: say it was a murder. Yeah. The last reports of
Speaker 1: him alive were between about twelve new and twelve thirty
Speaker 1: and those were by Alfred J. Potter, who managed the
Speaker 1: first again that was the farm that Charlie was working
Speaker 1: on that window isn't firm. Yeah, now he changed his
Speaker 1: time quite a few times. Yeah, I was gonna say
Speaker 1: I saw it. It felt like it could have gone
Speaker 1: all the way out to one o'clock, possibly depending on
Speaker 1: his versions. Yeah, and so it's a little and so yeah,
Speaker 1: a little bit. Well, I think one of the ways
Speaker 1: they sort of fixed at one pm, because it was
Speaker 1: believed was concluded later on that the murder probably happened
Speaker 1: between one and two pm on that day. And he
Speaker 1: said that he saw that at about twelve thirty and
Speaker 1: it appeared that he had X number of yards of
Speaker 1: hedge left to clear at that time. Of course he
Speaker 1: saw from like five hundred yards away. That's a long ways,
Speaker 1: but when he actually found his body, about four more
Speaker 1: yards of hedge have been clear heard, and it was
Speaker 1: at Potter's estimate that it would take about half an
Speaker 1: hour to do that work. So one o'clock that kind
Speaker 1: of works. And you said he had been working for
Speaker 1: Potter for how long? About nine months, although that's kind
Speaker 1: of actually that at this time, but he actually had
Speaker 1: been working for him on and off for about five years,
Speaker 1: because yeah, Potter had been managing this farm for about
Speaker 1: five years, and so he had lots of experience with
Speaker 1: Charlie and some of the other local labors. Apparently he
Speaker 1: managed it for a company that was owned by his dad,
Speaker 1: So it's a family business. Family business. Yeah. So okay,
Speaker 1: So sometime around one to the population of Lower Quentin
Speaker 1: dropped from four ninety three to four ninety two. So
Speaker 1: that's not a surprise. I guess we knew it was coming.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we kind of did. Yeah, it's kind of
Speaker 1: to be expected when you hear the words, you know, witchcraft, murder. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so Edith remember eating his niece. She she was
Speaker 1: working in a factory and she got home about six
Speaker 1: and I guess what, Charlie wasn't there. And because Charlie
Speaker 1: was pretty regular in his habits, she became a little
Speaker 1: bit worried about him. So she went and found her neighbor,
Speaker 1: guy named Harry Beasley, and they went looking for Alfred
Speaker 1: Potter and started looking on the farm for the body.
Speaker 1: And since Potter was the last guy to see him,
Speaker 1: and since Potter had a pretty good idea of where
Speaker 1: we was supposed to be working, they had it out
Speaker 1: there that direction. And guess what they found him. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm giggling. To myself over here, because you primed me
Speaker 1: to be thinking about Harry Potter. Now you've got part
Speaker 1: Potter and you've got Harry Beasley, which is just kind
Speaker 1: of like, that's a good point, Ron Weasley and Harry
Speaker 1: Potter and that and this is where J. K. Rowling
Speaker 1: got the idea she changed the name. Oh and and
Speaker 1: and my my previous reference when he went off to
Speaker 1: ward Hog School does adolescence? Okay, wait, it was Harry.
Speaker 1: It was Harry J. Potter, So this is even closer,
Speaker 1: was it? Okay? So yeah, maybe this is where she
Speaker 1: got all the names for her little for her books
Speaker 1: for my story. So they it was of course, it
Speaker 1: was six pm, after six pm, so it was dark.
Speaker 1: They took some torches, I presumably by torches. They're talking
Speaker 1: flashlights and not seeing Frankenstein movies with the angry villagers
Speaker 1: and the pitchforks. Yeah, and they found his body and uh,
Speaker 1: he was all he was all beaten, and he had
Speaker 1: been pinned to the ground with his pitchfork. The pitchfork
Speaker 1: was driven either around his neck or through his neck,
Speaker 1: pending on the version of the sea here, and so
Speaker 1: his body and then the pitchfork itself was had been
Speaker 1: sort of twisted forward and wedged into the heads that
Speaker 1: he was working on, which is weird. Yeah. And then
Speaker 1: well they might have whoever did it, might have wanted
Speaker 1: to expose his throat because his throat had been the
Speaker 1: Remember I talked about the slash. They found the slash
Speaker 1: work buried in his throat, and they also found his
Speaker 1: walking stick nearby, with you know, blood and hair on
Speaker 1: it because he'd been beaten with a walking stick. Also,
Speaker 1: so yeah, whoever did this really well I don't know
Speaker 1: what to say about they had a good time or
Speaker 1: else they were really angry about really worked something out
Speaker 1: on it. Yeah, it was the conclusion actually the Scotland
Speaker 1: yard chap said there wasn't there was a maniac on
Speaker 1: the lose of course, is reasonable enough. I guess it
Speaker 1: just kind of a maniac kind of murder. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Also also most creepy an ominous of all is across
Speaker 1: had been carved into Charlie's chest. Uh. Yeah, and he
Speaker 1: lost a lot of blood, most of his blood which
Speaker 1: had drained into the soil. Yeah, there was a lot
Speaker 1: of blood there. So there was an investigation by Stratford Police.
Speaker 1: Of course, they set the time of death. The forensic
Speaker 1: examiner did between one and two pm, and they noted
Speaker 1: that he was missing his pocket watch. He had a
Speaker 1: fairly cheap tin pocket watch that he carried with him
Speaker 1: all the time. It was gone, which made robbery is
Speaker 1: a murder, but I don't know. And Stratford, of course,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, they decided to call it in
Speaker 1: Scotland Yard and of course Chief Inspector Fabian arrives um
Speaker 1: that was two days after the murder. He arrived in
Speaker 1: the sixteenth. Yeah, of course he was all after it.
Speaker 1: They they besides interviewing everybody in town, and they did
Speaker 1: interview the entire village. They also called in an r
Speaker 1: a F plane that had an aerial camera on it
Speaker 1: and they photographed the entire village and including the murder scene,
Speaker 1: just looking for any possible clues. So what I love
Speaker 1: about the whole rif angle is there's some things that
Speaker 1: you see that say and the pool of blood around
Speaker 1: him was so big it could be seen from several
Speaker 1: hundred feet above in the air. That's a little hard
Speaker 1: to believe. I've heard that one too. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: think that. I think the blood would soak into the
Speaker 1: ground before it was spread big enough to be seen
Speaker 1: hundreds of feet in the air. I would agree with this,
Speaker 1: unless you know extreme drought. Yeah that's a good point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it was mid February in that and it's
Speaker 1: you know, England, so yeah, really doubting that that kind
Speaker 1: of Yeah, what else they Hey, they called data ground
Speaker 1: Sear's local police and I think they were assisted by
Speaker 1: military in this, and the military came in with metal
Speaker 1: detectors and everything because they were looking for the watch,
Speaker 1: because that was their only lead. They didn't have much
Speaker 1: to go on here, and yeah, the watch, well maybe
Speaker 1: they were hoping possibly to get a fingerprint or two
Speaker 1: off of it, but they never found it. There are
Speaker 1: reports the watch was found like like fifteen years later
Speaker 1: when they were tearing down the outhouses at the cottage
Speaker 1: where they were Dye and Charlie were living. Supposedly they
Speaker 1: found the watch in the outhouse, although I've heard that
Speaker 1: that's also not entirely confirmed. Also, it feels like it'd
Speaker 1: be hard to confirm it was his, who was a
Speaker 1: fairly generic just tin watch. Yeah. He doesn't strike me
Speaker 1: as the kind of guy who would have been monogrammed
Speaker 1: or anything like that. So it actually had been monogramed,
Speaker 1: but he had bought it used, so it had somebody
Speaker 1: else's name in it, and so it could have been
Speaker 1: positively identified in his because it did have another guy's
Speaker 1: name in it. But again, Charlie was not a rich guy,
Speaker 1: not at all. The closest he came to wealth, which
Speaker 1: was not much, is when his wife died seven she
Speaker 1: left him about three hundred pounds about seven and what
Speaker 1: he put in the bank, and by the time of
Speaker 1: his death, I think it was down to about eleven pounds.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't as if he was living lavish. Oh no,
Speaker 1: not at all, because it was he had lived on
Speaker 1: that almost three hundred pounds for nearly twenty years. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure he just pulled it out for you know,
Speaker 1: extra expenses, emergency yeah something, Yeah, yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1: That's what the savings accounts for totally. And but but
Speaker 1: for the most part, I don't think he needed it.
Speaker 1: He worked all the time and so he usually can
Speaker 1: support himself. Okay, now, quickly, let's a quick look at
Speaker 1: the autopsy. When they when they examined him, they found
Speaker 1: that his tricky had been cut. That's you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: not surprising. Uh. He also had broken ribs and bruises
Speaker 1: on his chest, presumably from the walking stick, because uh,
Speaker 1: he had sustained blows to the head which were matched
Speaker 1: to the walking stick, So the broken ribs and stuff
Speaker 1: could have also come from the walking stick or one
Speaker 1: of the other weapons, or somebody just punching. He's a
Speaker 1: seven five year old man. He's worked his whole life.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, not lived an easy life. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he he was. He was probably tougher than he looked. Yeah, sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He also had some defensive wounds. He had to cut
Speaker 1: in his left hand, He had extensive bruising on his
Speaker 1: right arm in hand, and so he was obviously trying
Speaker 1: to fend off whoever was attacking him. He didn't quite succeed.
Speaker 1: And also his shirt had been opened and his fly
Speaker 1: had been unbuttoned. It makes no sense, not really. Oh no,
Speaker 1: he he was wearing pants that had a button fly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I've had pants that have come undone when I'm working.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're twisting and turning, I could maybe
Speaker 1: see that, Sure, I can maybe see if he was hot,
Speaker 1: he sweat, Yeah, I mean he could have been button
Speaker 1: a shirt if it might be. He didn't even button
Speaker 1: it to begin with when he left that day, Well,
Speaker 1: I thought it was a cool day February. But he
Speaker 1: was also wearing a jacket when he was found. And
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's hard to cut across in someone's chest
Speaker 1: when their shirt is buttoned. I'll just say, true. It's
Speaker 1: a good point. But and to the unbuttoned pants, I
Speaker 1: guess is it not possible that his attacker came upon
Speaker 1: him when he was your name? Yeah? Well, I was
Speaker 1: about to suggest that. I know that when I choose
Speaker 1: to jump somebody and murder them, I usually wait to
Speaker 1: other at their most vulnerable. Yeah, and that is one
Speaker 1: of the most That's a great time to do it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I know I'm not exactly you know,
Speaker 1: your great courageous warrior here, I admit it. I'll go
Speaker 1: for every advantage I can. Yeah. Yeah. The Loocal police
Speaker 1: also include Fabian of the yard and on some other
Speaker 1: interesting local lore that they seemed to feel might have
Speaker 1: some bearing on this case. Uh and certainly, um, it
Speaker 1: did have. If it had no bearing on the case,
Speaker 1: it certainly influenced the public perception of it. Oh, I
Speaker 1: would say that's the only thing that it really did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as far as where that this provided him with any
Speaker 1: sort of a road map to solve the killing. Well
Speaker 1: not really. But the first thing is he included a
Speaker 1: man on that's Fabian clud amen On murdered that had
Speaker 1: happened in eighteen seventy five, which is like what eighty
Speaker 1: years before? Yes, always before seventy years, eighty years. I
Speaker 1: don't know of a woman named and Tennant, although I've
Speaker 1: seen in one account I saw her name as a Turner,
Speaker 1: but everywhere else is and Tenants, So I think Tenant
Speaker 1: is the correct the correct name. Yeah, she had been
Speaker 1: murdered under identical circumstances in the same space nearby, but
Speaker 1: not not in the same field or anything like that.
Speaker 1: But she had been saving Yeah, pinned, pinned to the
Speaker 1: ground with a pitchfork, and that her throat was slashed
Speaker 1: with the sign of the cross. Um. Then she was
Speaker 1: bill hook, Yeah, with a bill hook. She killed by
Speaker 1: a guy named James, named James Haywood. Uh, And he
Speaker 1: said that he did it because she was a witch
Speaker 1: and she was trying to save the village from this.
Speaker 1: He was trying to save the village. You are, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's yeah, sorry, but uh, he was found guilty. That's
Speaker 1: James Haywood, and he was hanged because there were people around, well,
Speaker 1: there were neighbors there, yeah, yeah, yeah, and he was
Speaker 1: he was intoxicated, if I remember, he had asked some
Speaker 1: alcoholic cider, had been drinking, and he apparently was also
Speaker 1: considered slow witted. That was what the locals considered. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I considered kind of yeah, not not really. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: that's the one story. And then there was another story,
Speaker 1: and this is taken out a book by a guy
Speaker 1: named the Reverend James Harvey Bloom. In this book he
Speaker 1: giving account of a young Charles Walton in five and
Speaker 1: he tells in the tale of this, uh, he was
Speaker 1: he was a young farm laborer and he was heading
Speaker 1: home one night and he meant a large sort of
Speaker 1: spectral black dog on the road heading home. And then
Speaker 1: the next night he met the dog again. And then
Speaker 1: on the third night, uh, he saw the dog yet again,
Speaker 1: but this time there was a headless woman walking with
Speaker 1: the dog. I know, so yeah, I know. So Charles
Speaker 1: didn't think anything about at the time. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he did. But then later that night, when
Speaker 1: he got home, he found out that his sister had
Speaker 1: died and also I'll, by the way, in another version
Speaker 1: of this that I've seen out there, he actually saw
Speaker 1: the dog nine nights in a row. Okay, I was
Speaker 1: just I thought it was seven. But yeah, there there's
Speaker 1: varying links there are. Yeah, Apparently it turns out the
Speaker 1: black dog and local lore is a harbinger of death.
Speaker 1: You see one of these scary, creepy black dogs and
Speaker 1: that's not good news. Yeah, in the UK, the black
Speaker 1: dog has been around for hundreds of years. Although it's
Speaker 1: funny is that most of the time it's an evil spirit.
Speaker 1: There are a few that are benevolent, if not helpful,
Speaker 1: which those are the ones that I want to see.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but there's it's always it's always a black dog. Yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of. It's kind of tough on it. And say,
Speaker 1: if you're a black lab, you know you just just friendly, friendly,
Speaker 1: happy black lab and everybody thinks you're evil. You to
Speaker 1: run up to somebody to say, HOI how you doing,
Speaker 1: How you doing? How you doing it? I'm a good boy?
Speaker 1: Are we playing cheese? Okay? Okay, Yeah, black labs are
Speaker 1: the best dogs. They are cool dogs. Yeah. There is
Speaker 1: even here in America. There's a little bit of a
Speaker 1: prejudice against black dogs. Yeah, unfortunately, really not as much
Speaker 1: as black cats. But now that's true, but it definitely
Speaker 1: is one. All right, well, we're gonna talk about a
Speaker 1: few theories here. But first, hear a black dog scratching
Speaker 1: on my door, So let me take a quick break
Speaker 1: here and go answer that. It's pitch black. Open your eyes.
Speaker 1: This is a good start to your day. You're in bed,
Speaker 1: in your bedroom. It's a mess. It's a small bedroom
Speaker 1: with a faded rug and dirty walls. There's your robe,
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Speaker 1: have to decide get out of bed. If you do,
Speaker 1: your friend Ford might take you on an unbelievable adventure.
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Speaker 1: that sideways and talk space dot com slash sideways and
Speaker 1: don't forget your towel. Then we're back. It was okay,
Speaker 1: not a black dog. It was just my cat. All right.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about some theories, alright. Our first theory, uh,
Speaker 1: suicide and we're talking about who, who and why he
Speaker 1: was killed, et cetera. In case you've forgotten our story
Speaker 1: the murder of Charlie Walton, the witchcraft and murder, so suicide.
Speaker 1: Either one of you guys want to go to bed
Speaker 1: for the suicide theory? Is this your the beginning of it?
Speaker 1: Suicide scene is a little unlikely. He would have had
Speaker 1: to have been a very very determined suicidal guy. I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: we've we've we've talked about the silliness of this kind
Speaker 1: of stuff before for this kind of story. Now now
Speaker 1: we'll just rule that one right out. I think, yeah, So, okay,
Speaker 1: it wasn't suicide obviously, probably not natural causes, probably not accidental. Um,
Speaker 1: so that leaves kind of a murder um, yeah, kind
Speaker 1: of does. Let's start with some of the more sensational
Speaker 1: and interesting ones. First. There's one theory that was out
Speaker 1: there floating around quite a bit, which is that Charlie
Speaker 1: was killed by a covenant, which is as a sacrifice, uh,
Speaker 1: to replenish the soil. And so apparently the date actually
Speaker 1: has some significance. Apparently that date under the old calendar,
Speaker 1: and I don't know which calendar that is, but that's
Speaker 1: what they say. The old calendar that was considered candle
Speaker 1: Moss Day, and that was to day when you had
Speaker 1: a chance to influence the next growing season, and the
Speaker 1: best way to do that was to kill somebody. Let's
Speaker 1: sacrifice and yeah, let their blood drain into the soil.
Speaker 1: I'll just say, I know you have some other stuff here,
Speaker 1: but in my understanding of which is they are not
Speaker 1: typically super akin to like Christian symbology symbolism which Ash
Speaker 1: Wednesday would be something of or like you know, the
Speaker 1: cross carved in the chest like usually be like a
Speaker 1: pentagram or something more wicked. Yeah, yeah, I mean you
Speaker 1: would think more than just a cross, which typically I
Speaker 1: think is a hindrance to witches, isn't it? Or are
Speaker 1: there Christian witches? Is that you know? I mean, well,
Speaker 1: you know, it might it might not have been a
Speaker 1: symbol symbol of their own faith. It might have been
Speaker 1: it might have been mocking his faith. I mean, when
Speaker 1: you think about it, I imagine this in a sense.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, well, you know, hey, we just
Speaker 1: we just did whatever with the hell we please with you,
Speaker 1: and your God didn't do anything for you, did he
Speaker 1: ha ha. So that's one way of looking at the cross.
Speaker 1: That's true though in my guess for me, I think
Speaker 1: they're trying to make a sacrifice to their gods or
Speaker 1: their beliefs. So you would want to do as much
Speaker 1: to honor your beliefs as possible. Not dead degrade that
Speaker 1: I'm right that Yeah, he would say, oh, idy, God
Speaker 1: of the soil, here his this sacrifice to you in
Speaker 1: which we carved your symbol. And for all I know,
Speaker 1: the symbol is across. I don't know. I'm not a
Speaker 1: right here, yeah yeah, yeah, No, I I am assuming
Speaker 1: that the cross is not the witch symbol, but I
Speaker 1: could be wrong. I've never heard you'd be wrong before.
Speaker 1: That's true. Never before in my entire life ever been wrong.
Speaker 1: So I was once I thought I had made a
Speaker 1: mistake or not. I hadn't. This would be a first. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's true. Yeah, what were we? What is dud so
Speaker 1: so kind of a Druid ceremony? Because I see we're
Speaker 1: talking about witches and you gotta see druids and I
Speaker 1: didn't know that those were so much interchangeable. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: I don't know either. I actually am not an expert
Speaker 1: on the druids, and nobody really is not really that
Speaker 1: remains Druids practices, So yeah, you know, not much is known.
Speaker 1: Apparently there was what was thought by many to be
Speaker 1: a Druid ruined, which is a stone circle which was
Speaker 1: at least in nineteen called the Whispering Knights, and that
Speaker 1: was supposed to be close to the murder scene. Is
Speaker 1: that what it was? Yeah? Those that had some significance
Speaker 1: in people's minds that it was so close. And also
Speaker 1: apparently Warwick Share itself was and perhaps still even is
Speaker 1: a hotbed of witchery. And then of course the Druids
Speaker 1: apparently considered ash Wednesday to be a significant day that
Speaker 1: the day to make the sacrifice to the earth, although
Speaker 1: they didn't to them it wasn't Ash Wednesday obviously because
Speaker 1: they predated all the Ash Wednesday stuff. Right. But the problem,
Speaker 1: of course is that this what was the it's the
Speaker 1: Whispering Knights. Yeah, isn't actually close. It's like twelve miles away,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean yeah, so, I mean that's close.
Speaker 1: I guess when you think about it the overall scheme
Speaker 1: of things, I mean, look how far the Earth is
Speaker 1: from the sun. Yeah, but yeah, now twelve miles is
Speaker 1: kind of a long way. So so we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about the bunk nous of the cross. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: cross actually is not mentioned in the autopsy at all.
Speaker 1: Apparently apparently the cross carved in the chest was sort
Speaker 1: of made up by somebody. Yeah, I mean, big surprise.
Speaker 1: I mean, how often does that happen? This just goes
Speaker 1: to show you that, you know, everybody, everybody thinks that
Speaker 1: all this crap about fake news all began with the Internet.
Speaker 1: Tell you this, guys, it happened. Oh, it's been happening forever,
Speaker 1: I think. Okay, is that all we've got the whole? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so that you know that. Yeah, so the con
Speaker 1: thing is like, well, okay, there was he was nowhere
Speaker 1: anywhere near some sort of juuid circle. There was no
Speaker 1: cross um. And according to the experts, wicked experts that
Speaker 1: I've heard quoted about this, this particular thing is he
Speaker 1: was actually too old for the sacrifice. Apparently, you want
Speaker 1: young blood, Yeah, I mean you would, right, Yeah, you
Speaker 1: want young blood. Yeah, isn't it always it's the young
Speaker 1: virgin that's the perfect vessel for they have the young
Speaker 1: energy that can replenish the energy of the soil. Right.
Speaker 1: You don't want old used up energy, because then it's
Speaker 1: like what up? You know, it's it's what's really interesting
Speaker 1: about that is that just very very recently, medical researches
Speaker 1: has found out that there really is such a thing
Speaker 1: as young and old blood. Yeah. They have found out
Speaker 1: if you if you take a transfusion from a twenty
Speaker 1: year old guy and give it to an eight year
Speaker 1: old guy, and the eight year old will have a
Speaker 1: significant health increase. Which also that sort of argues against
Speaker 1: like old people donating blood, because if you've got a
Speaker 1: guy who's like really having a hard time trying to
Speaker 1: recover from something that you put an eight year old
Speaker 1: blood into him, it's like, that's maybe not such a
Speaker 1: great ideas than nothing, but it's not. It's not ideal.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so young blood, So Charlie was not exactly
Speaker 1: possessing any young blood. So that's why, besides the fact
Speaker 1: that there's really nothing to support this anyway, it just
Speaker 1: didn't make sense from a whole wickened point of view. Yeah,
Speaker 1: make him a sacrifice. But there was another possibility, which
Speaker 1: is that he was murdered actually by the people of
Speaker 1: Lower Quintin because Charlie himself was a witch or a warlock. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there was some stuff. Remember I said he had
Speaker 1: this strange ability to communicate with animals. It seemed like, uh,
Speaker 1: he was a great horse trainer. Apparently he also had
Speaker 1: the birds flocking around him and and could some do
Speaker 1: wild dogs and and uh he also apparently had some
Speaker 1: natterjack toads city captain. Apparently these are strange little toads
Speaker 1: that don't really hip hop like other toads do. They
Speaker 1: kind of run instead. That's have you looked at these toads.
Speaker 1: They're they're wide there, their white body. It's very hard
Speaker 1: for him to to get a good jump going. What
Speaker 1: are they called natterjack toes a t t e R.
Speaker 1: See how a toad usually their their body is the
Speaker 1: shape of it from their their chest is kind of conical.
Speaker 1: These things are more like a frisbee with eyes and legs,
Speaker 1: and they're so cute, just a little dirty things. Well
Speaker 1: that's why they don't jump very much, because they can't.
Speaker 1: So round and weird. Yeah, no, so he kept some
Speaker 1: of those. He had some of those or lived near
Speaker 1: his house. One of the two repeatedly, he actually kept them.
Speaker 1: And apparently he was you could use an ader jack
Speaker 1: to to put a hex in your neighbor's crops. And
Speaker 1: what he did was he tied a toy, a small
Speaker 1: toy plow to one of the frogs or one of
Speaker 1: the toads, I guess, and sent it scurring off across
Speaker 1: people's fields, which caused their crops to fail. Uh. And
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, there was a big failure
Speaker 1: in of the crop. And uh it's it's rumored that
Speaker 1: the local towns folk blamed Charlie for this. Do you
Speaker 1: know what I would do if I was a guy
Speaker 1: who was slowly working through my savings account and having
Speaker 1: a hard time continuing to to do my farm work,
Speaker 1: but needed to steal eat, and there happened to be
Speaker 1: an abundance of toads around. I would gather them up
Speaker 1: and keep them to eat them. Yeah. That's the thing
Speaker 1: is Charlie kind of had an interest in not seeing
Speaker 1: people's crops fail. I was gonna say he was a
Speaker 1: farm hand. His job depended on the crops being successful.
Speaker 1: And if he had, but if he in some way
Speaker 1: encourage these little telligent to be around, I'm like, that's
Speaker 1: a food source man. And probably and let's not forget
Speaker 1: this was this was still the tag out of World
Speaker 1: War two, so food was probably a little scarce the fraction,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, those things probably made good food sources,
Speaker 1: along with local rabbits and stuff like that. You know,
Speaker 1: some of the stories too about Charlie, like he could
Speaker 1: have birds eating out of his hand and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: There they seemed to be a bit apocryphal. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: doing wild dogs and stuff. You know, there's there's people
Speaker 1: who are the dog whisperer, people who can talk in
Speaker 1: a soothing tone and they're able to calm animals down.
Speaker 1: And there are people who can do that. The whole
Speaker 1: bird eating out of the hand thing, if he is
Speaker 1: going to the same place feeding the birds every day.
Speaker 1: It's like the old lady at the park with the pigeons,
Speaker 1: for sure. Sure, so it's entirely possible that that's what
Speaker 1: he was doing. Yeah, and it's these oh well I
Speaker 1: used to see me always would feed the birds. They
Speaker 1: would eat out of his hand, and then of course
Speaker 1: our lovely Newsy grabs that and throws it in the
Speaker 1: weekly rag, where you got a little little indication there witchcraft. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Inspector Fabian actually didn't talk about any of this
Speaker 1: witchcraft stuff in his his police reports and uh, but
Speaker 1: later on when he started writing books, he and he
Speaker 1: started mentioning this stuff a little bit more. But obviously
Speaker 1: he had sort of an interest in selling books, so he,
Speaker 1: you know, sexing it up with a little bit a
Speaker 1: little talk of witchcraft probably was in his own interests.
Speaker 1: It seems so late to be doing the witchcraft. Seriously,
Speaker 1: you're going to be like, she's a witch? Were he
Speaker 1: added that like five years later? I know, But that's
Speaker 1: just seems so like the nineteen fifties. Seriously, this is
Speaker 1: the thing you're still going to bring out and say, well,
Speaker 1: he was a witch, so you know, we had to
Speaker 1: kill him. That's been thing to me. I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: I still know people who burns what is it sage
Speaker 1: when you put it in the bundle and you and
Speaker 1: you know it's this. Okay, let's be fair. That's very
Speaker 1: different from killing someone because you think they're a witch.
Speaker 1: But there are people who still believe in and I
Speaker 1: apologize if anybody doesn't like me saying this, but there's
Speaker 1: still people who believe in googleies and ghosties and all
Speaker 1: these other things that we can't see being real and
Speaker 1: trying to defend themselves and weird stuff like that happens.
Speaker 1: It's is not as cosmopolitan as I'm not saying. I'm
Speaker 1: just saying there's a huge difference between believing there's a
Speaker 1: ghost in your house and literally bludgeoning an old and
Speaker 1: to death and cutting across in his chest because you
Speaker 1: think he might be away bris had five hundred years
Speaker 1: of hunting. I just think it's just a cultural norse.
Speaker 1: I still just think it's crazy, and I still think
Speaker 1: it's crazy that that somebody would be like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is a good theory for why. That's the thing about it.
Speaker 1: There might there might have been a few Liny tuners
Speaker 1: in Low Quentin who actually believed that sort of stuff,
Speaker 1: But the entire village man probably a bit of a stretch.
Speaker 1: You know. The other thing that I want that this
Speaker 1: particular theory makes me think of is you had mentioned
Speaker 1: at one time the the whole nobody in the village
Speaker 1: would talk to and say what they knew it was
Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, and it was because of this they
Speaker 1: killed the warlock. Thing is what You've seen a lot
Speaker 1: of places. But I found the best description somewhere, which
Speaker 1: was they told they had they would share nothing with
Speaker 1: him because they knew nothing and had nothing to share.
Speaker 1: None of them were there. That was That was the
Speaker 1: thing people who worked Yeah, yeah, probably from the Scotland
Speaker 1: Yards point of view. Is like saying that nobody would
Speaker 1: talk to us. Well people, they interviewed everybody, and everybody
Speaker 1: said I don't have a clue, yeah, and so it
Speaker 1: probably told them the little bit they knew, which was
Speaker 1: unhelpful for me. It's similar to if somebody came to
Speaker 1: one of us and said, hey, I want to talk
Speaker 1: to you about the Kiren Horman disappearance, and we'd be like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, and they'd be like the thinking Sideways
Speaker 1: crew stone walling on the same thing to me, where
Speaker 1: like we live in the same city. But like, no,
Speaker 1: you don't know anything, So what do you have to say. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you. I'm ashamed to admit this, but
Speaker 1: I don't really know anything about Kiren. I mean, other
Speaker 1: than a few basic facts, I don't really really which
Speaker 1: is okay because you're not involved in the case. No,
Speaker 1: not at all, not at all, we ever choose to
Speaker 1: cover that. I might have a good source or too,
Speaker 1: but yeah, we'll put that anyway. Charlie's niece Eaty back
Speaker 1: to our story. I saw a BBC interview with here
Speaker 1: was a brief little interview and I know Steve, you've
Speaker 1: seen it. Oh yeah, that's great. It's uh, it's just
Speaker 1: this guy, this BBC journalist has been very melidramatic, melodramatic
Speaker 1: about the whole thing. And he's actually out at the
Speaker 1: base of Mayon Hill in his trench coat and everything,
Speaker 1: with his long hair flowing in the breeze and stuff,
Speaker 1: and he's going like, it's more like puffing around in
Speaker 1: the breeze. It's not flowing at all. Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: even he talks to Dye, it says, you know, what
Speaker 1: about all this and what about all this witchcraft, and
Speaker 1: she's like, I don't know what, don't don't do that.
Speaker 1: There's it's like I've never heard of it. Actually, the
Speaker 1: pipe has just made it all up like that every
Speaker 1: time he does an accident it sounds slightly German. Well
Speaker 1: he watched a lot of Yeah, well and then and
Speaker 1: what Then the interview goes, I mean Warwick warwicksher is
Speaker 1: reputed to be a great center of witchcraft and sorcery.
Speaker 1: Have you ever met a witch? And she says no,
Speaker 1: I never had to. Actually, he was like, She's like,
Speaker 1: this is all rubbish. Joe I had the best conversation
Speaker 1: on the phone the other day about the fact that
Speaker 1: this is obviously one of those things that the guys
Speaker 1: from Monty Python learned to parody because because it is
Speaker 1: so absurdly funny when you watch it, it's unintentionally kind
Speaker 1: of funny. And yeah, obviously these guys were kind of
Speaker 1: an inspiration for the Python guys. I think, I'm sure,
Speaker 1: I really do, but yeah, yeah, but Edie was great.
Speaker 1: She's just like, oh, I don't know what the heck
Speaker 1: about that? Actually, alright, support theories, Uh, there was, of
Speaker 1: course the Italians they were Yeah, I know they did
Speaker 1: catch one Italian and with some blood in his hands,
Speaker 1: but it turned out that he had been he had
Speaker 1: just gotten out, so we can go hunt rabbits to
Speaker 1: supplement his diet. Again kind of makes sense because again
Speaker 1: wartime rationing. It can't really blame him for that. At
Speaker 1: the token Italian on this podcast, I think Italians didn't
Speaker 1: do it, do you think so? Okay, I'll buy that. No,
Speaker 1: there was no reason for him. Again, these guys had
Speaker 1: a sweet deal going on, you know. I mean, there
Speaker 1: was no reason to go out in murders. And the
Speaker 1: weather in England is not nearly as nice as isn't Italy.
Speaker 1: But some parts of Italy are kind of girls. I
Speaker 1: gotta say one one nice thing I like about written
Speaker 1: over Italy is say, have number one, no volcanoes, number two,
Speaker 1: no massive earthquakes. Okay, But other than that, Italy's got
Speaker 1: a lot going for it. Back to our theories. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: this is another theory that was considered but kind of
Speaker 1: dismissed by the police. But apparently Charlie had a friend
Speaker 1: named George Higgins. They've known each other for many years.
Speaker 1: They hadn't talked for a few months, but you know
Speaker 1: they were well acquainted, and Higgins was actually working quite
Speaker 1: close by, like in a barn, like maybe three yards
Speaker 1: for the murder scene. And obviously in a murder you
Speaker 1: obviously you really want to look at family and acquaintances first, Right,
Speaker 1: So Higgins was given them, given a little bit of scrutiny.
Speaker 1: But and maybe he did it, I don't know, But nobody,
Speaker 1: the police really couldn't find any motive. I mean, they
Speaker 1: seemed to be friends. How far away was he supposedly
Speaker 1: supposedly like three yards away or right around right there,
Speaker 1: he was close by, he would have maybe heard something, Uh,
Speaker 1: just still a ways. I mean it's just three football fields. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's not helpful to me. You should know that by now. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I know it's it's not close three city blocks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's not if somebody's getting murdered three city blocks
Speaker 1: away in the outdoors, you think you might hear something, well,
Speaker 1: you know, old men. But there's a fight, right, I
Speaker 1: mean there were defensive wounds, so there was a fight.
Speaker 1: There wasn't No, there wasn't a fight. There must have
Speaker 1: been some noise. I'm just trying to play double's advocate, right,
Speaker 1: Appreciate that but you know, you don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: besides the distance, you don't know what the terrain was like.
Speaker 1: They might have been over a hill, there might have
Speaker 1: been all kinds of hedges in between. He could have
Speaker 1: been listening to our podcast. He could have then listening
Speaker 1: to a podcast, because he was a traveler exactly. Uh.
Speaker 1: And of course you're on a farm, so if you
Speaker 1: hear a scream, you might just think it's an animal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he probably thought nothing of it, or you know,
Speaker 1: you're a few screams and just thought, well, I don't
Speaker 1: want to get involved. So yeah, I did, not knowing
Speaker 1: it was his point. Yeah, you make great point. Farm
Speaker 1: animals are amazingly noisy. Yeah. Yeah, they make a lot
Speaker 1: of noise. Oh yeah, and so somebody murdered getting murdered,
Speaker 1: I don't know that not necessarily going to stand out. Okay,
Speaker 1: so so much for George Higgins, I don't The police
Speaker 1: dismissed him pretty quickly, just like the Italians. And uh,
Speaker 1: of course there was his niece, Eaty. I mean she
Speaker 1: could have she would have stood to inherit maybe eleven pounds,
Speaker 1: so she had a big motive. Yeah apparently, Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: Charlie apparently did have the habit of leaving the toilet
Speaker 1: seat up. Stop it. Yeah, I know, I know. Well,
Speaker 1: to be fair, I mean, eleven pounds in ninety five
Speaker 1: was four hundred and forty pounds like today, which is like,
Speaker 1: you know, four and fifty dollars, which people who been
Speaker 1: killed for less sadly, and I think the exchange right
Speaker 1: actually was more favorable back in the day, so dollar wise,
Speaker 1: it might have been worth more to the US dollar. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she had then left the country, which she did not do. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: the other reasons not to think about not to think
Speaker 1: Dye did it again? You know, you want to look
Speaker 1: at the family and acquaintances and friends, so few Marrits
Speaker 1: will look. But I think the murder was probably a man,
Speaker 1: especially the pitchfork. I mean, the pitchfork was driven into
Speaker 1: the ground so hard apparently it took two policemen to
Speaker 1: pull it out of the ground. So I was going
Speaker 1: to ask you about that because when when I was
Speaker 1: doing the reading and I saw this stuff about the pitchfork,
Speaker 1: what I couldn't understand was was it that the sheer
Speaker 1: act of pulling the pitchfork out of the ground. You
Speaker 1: know that the times out of the ground took two men,
Speaker 1: or had it been jammed so far in the ground
Speaker 1: and then at such a strange change, funky angle to
Speaker 1: wedge it under the hedge that it took two people.
Speaker 1: Do you see where guys to get it at tangle
Speaker 1: from the hedge or something that's hard to see, especially well,
Speaker 1: if the ground was soft and wet, which I see
Speaker 1: it was, it's hard to imagine it being I was
Speaker 1: going to say, if the ground was wet and soft
Speaker 1: when it happened, I mean, there's a couple hours elapsed,
Speaker 1: and it's February, so like in Portland for instance. Right,
Speaker 1: if something happens midday, heat of the day in February
Speaker 1: and then Pempters dropped down to freezing, it's possible it
Speaker 1: could have been shoved in the ground when it was
Speaker 1: kind of wet and soggy and then subsequently froze and
Speaker 1: the ground hardened around it. Yeah, there's a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of questions about this. I mean, I don't disagree that
Speaker 1: it was done with some extreme force, so probably a guy. Also,
Speaker 1: I think he was probably strong enough that he could
Speaker 1: have defended himself against his niece probably well. And also
Speaker 1: I also don't see that she had any motive. Is
Speaker 1: literally he had raised her not it doesn't happen. But
Speaker 1: also there's the whole question of well, I think she
Speaker 1: was at her job at that time. She's where she
Speaker 1: was at her job. And then also, you know, having
Speaker 1: dual income in that time is better than having single incomes.
Speaker 1: Killing off somebody who's bringing income into the house maybe
Speaker 1: not not a smart move, you know. And also there
Speaker 1: was just there were better ways for her to do
Speaker 1: with They were less suspicious. I mean, you could have
Speaker 1: she could have like spiked his tea and sedated him
Speaker 1: and then smothered him with a pillow. Yeah, seventy years old.
Speaker 1: No nobody if he'd just woken up dead in his bed,
Speaker 1: and he had just woken up dead in his bed,
Speaker 1: woken up to find him meant to say the top
Speaker 1: of the morning too, and feeling kind of dead. But anyway,
Speaker 1: she had better ways, So I'm gonna rule eat out
Speaker 1: if that's okay with Yeah. Next local person was the
Speaker 1: favorite suspect, Alfred J. Potter, the guy who on the
Speaker 1: farm was actually scrutinized quite extensively by Scotland. Yard happened
Speaker 1: on his land and there were some some things about him.
Speaker 1: Like the local constable that that came to the crime
Speaker 1: scene initially before the Stratford police arrived, said that Potter
Speaker 1: seemed nervous and kind of upset and complained about being cold,
Speaker 1: and he also wanted to get out of there. As
Speaker 1: soon as the Stratford police showed up, he left, and
Speaker 1: and the constable thought that was kind of odd. The
Speaker 1: constable thought that was odd because he shouldn't have been
Speaker 1: squeamish around death because he worked on a farm, so
Speaker 1: he sees animals getting killed all the time. But that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean and I mean, it's a little different from
Speaker 1: a human being getting murdered. It is, but it also
Speaker 1: I guess, correct me if I'm wrong. But is was
Speaker 1: the furs an animal farm? That's a good question. I
Speaker 1: just you know, I think they were. I heard talk
Speaker 1: about him having a deal with with hafers and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, so I know they had at least some cattle,
Speaker 1: but where they slaughtered regularly for food and and what's
Speaker 1: to say he didn't contract that workout? Well, there's all
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff that you do on farms, like castrating
Speaker 1: animals and all kinds of good fun stuff. That's got
Speaker 1: but that's different than doing it to a human. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, very much, So you can be kind of
Speaker 1: in ear to the whole thing. But not only was
Speaker 1: it Charlie human being, but he was somebody that Potter
Speaker 1: had known for like five years, so obviously finding him
Speaker 1: brutally murdered been a big shot. Maybe you might have
Speaker 1: a really good reason for being uncomfortable at the scene.
Speaker 1: That was totally normal. Yeah, pretty much. So you know,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, I'm not gonna yet, I'm gonna say
Speaker 1: that doesn't really mean much. Uh, And of course there
Speaker 1: was a whole time that he saw Charlie in the fields.
Speaker 1: What's changed like several times. At first, he came out
Speaker 1: of the local pub about he said, around noontime and
Speaker 1: was walking through the village, and he said he looked
Speaker 1: up on Men Hill and saw Charlie about five hundred
Speaker 1: yards or so away working on the hedge. He said
Speaker 1: the time was twelve ten. Later he changed that time
Speaker 1: to twelve fifteen. Later on changed it to twelve twenty.
Speaker 1: And then when they had the inquest hearing, He's he
Speaker 1: said at that time that he saw Charlie up about
Speaker 1: up on Man Hill, at about twelve thirty, and that
Speaker 1: he was standing there in shirt sleeves and not actually
Speaker 1: doing anything at the moment, just standing there. So maybe
Speaker 1: he saw Charlie, maybe he saw the murderer. I guess
Speaker 1: we've talked about this before, though, I mean, people's sense
Speaker 1: of time is so fickle and changes, especially as you're
Speaker 1: trying to remember. And if he had been drinking a
Speaker 1: little bit, I mean it's possible. So they'd had lunch.
Speaker 1: He wasn't at the pub because he was boozing it up.
Speaker 1: He was he had met a friend after doing something
Speaker 1: that morning that I cannot but yeah, and then they
Speaker 1: but they went there and they had lunch and a
Speaker 1: couple of drinks and a couple of drinks. But I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: but if I sit down at lunch and I have
Speaker 1: two beers with by lunch, my faculties room. I'm saying
Speaker 1: that his faculties are not in place. I'm just saying that,
Speaker 1: like even me totally sober, can think about how long
Speaker 1: something took, you know, a day or two ago, and
Speaker 1: say I think it took half hour when reality it
Speaker 1: took me ten minutes. No, No, I'm just saying that
Speaker 1: I don't think that he was. He was sauce, No, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that. I just think it could have
Speaker 1: affected his yeah, for sure. And I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's the custom and the pubs in Britain is to
Speaker 1: have bar time like we have here in America, where
Speaker 1: you sit your clocks ahead, you know. I don't know
Speaker 1: if they do that too, So that could tie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that can totally screw you up. There was another
Speaker 1: interesting point, which is several days after the murder, uh
Speaker 1: police said that they were going to fingerprint the weapons
Speaker 1: and see if they get idea to kill her from that.
Speaker 1: And that's when Potter said, oh, by the way, I
Speaker 1: should probably mention to you that I touched the murder weapons.
Speaker 1: I touched both the pitchfork, you know, and the slash hook,
Speaker 1: just so you know. And the police are like, why
Speaker 1: did you do that? And then and Potter says, well,
Speaker 1: Harry Beasley, remember Harry Beasley went up there with Eadie
Speaker 1: and Potter found the body. He said, well, Harry Beasley
Speaker 1: said that I should check the body and make sure
Speaker 1: he's not not still alive. So I got quite kind
Speaker 1: of close to him, and I think I tie. I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure I touched the murder weapons. So when police
Speaker 1: asked Harry Beasley about this, Beasley said no, I said
Speaker 1: no such thing to him. And Beasley also said he
Speaker 1: doesn't didn't recall seeing Potter touched the weapons at all.
Speaker 1: In Potter's defense, though Beasley and um Eadie left the
Speaker 1: scene to go, he dropped her back in the house
Speaker 1: and and get her settled and then go get the constable.
Speaker 1: So you know, Potters just hanging out there by himself,
Speaker 1: So he could have possibly happened. He could have been
Speaker 1: a passing, you know, even just so much as a
Speaker 1: sarcastic comment. You just probably tended to make sure he's alive. Huh, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that might as your as your partner might want to
Speaker 1: say something like that. Yeah, sure. And so it's entirely
Speaker 1: possible he did touch them in all innocence. That obviously
Speaker 1: raised some suspicions with the police, the fact that he
Speaker 1: waited several days, although again you know, the fact that
Speaker 1: he waited and then said, oh, by the way, you know,
Speaker 1: after the police said we're gonna fingerprint the weapons, oh,
Speaker 1: by the way, I touched them. And by the way,
Speaker 1: they found no fingerprints on the weapons. Well, which is
Speaker 1: strange because at least Charlie should have been on there,
Speaker 1: and but then maybe the killer wiped him off. I
Speaker 1: don't know. But again, that's also something you can kind
Speaker 1: of forget too, you know, stressful moment and all that,
Speaker 1: and suddenly you know, and it doesn't strike you as
Speaker 1: important that you touched those things, and then when you
Speaker 1: hear about the paying print, it's like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: I should probably let you guys know that I touched
Speaker 1: these things. So and the only other thing about it
Speaker 1: that was even suspicious about Potters apparently he had been skimming.
Speaker 1: He had been skimming. Yeah, he had been apparently over
Speaker 1: reporting the time that his laborers, including Charlie, we're putting
Speaker 1: it on the farm, and then and then pocketing the difference,
Speaker 1: which was not was done an uncommon practice, No, not
Speaker 1: really to this day do that yeah, oh yeah, yeah. So,
Speaker 1: and that's certainly not a motive from murder. Even if
Speaker 1: Charlie had found out, Charlie might have been like, you know,
Speaker 1: that's what I would expect, or you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: certainly Charlie is not gonna go I'm gonna ratch you
Speaker 1: out and you're gonna have to pay your dad back
Speaker 1: to some of them, like, you know, twenty pounds, you know,
Speaker 1: and then he's gonna get murdered over that. I can't
Speaker 1: quite see that. And how the hell did Charlie find out?
Speaker 1: Who told him? And why did not tell the police? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: how did Charlie get ahold of the books? Is what
Speaker 1: I want to know. Yeah. Oh, and there was another
Speaker 1: last piece of potentially incriminating information which apparently Potter's trousers
Speaker 1: had some marks on the front of them which appeared
Speaker 1: to be blood. Didn't he explain that away because he
Speaker 1: had to go get a half her out of a ditch? Uh? Well,
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is, um, he worked on
Speaker 1: a farm. I mean you're gonna get dirt, blood and
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff, That's what I mean. Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: I mean Potter was Potter was definitely a strong suspect,
Speaker 1: well not that strong. He was a suspect, stronger than
Speaker 1: any we've said so far, was the strongest suspect, but
Speaker 1: still not much of a suspect really. Frankly, they'd still
Speaker 1: never found a real motive. And you know, it also
Speaker 1: seems like with the kind of damage that was done,
Speaker 1: you would expect more than just a few flecks of
Speaker 1: blood on the front of your pants. That's true. If
Speaker 1: you slice a guy with a billhook, there's gonna be blood.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. So that that's that's a
Speaker 1: good point. And obviously if he did if he did
Speaker 1: do it, he would have run home and changed. But
Speaker 1: then you know, if he had marks in his pants
Speaker 1: is because there's something else that he did in the farm.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm just not seeing it with Potter. I
Speaker 1: just don't think it was him. So at least our
Speaker 1: next theory, which is maybe it was a serial killer
Speaker 1: ran maybe it was just a kind of a random
Speaker 1: thing it turns As it turns out in England there
Speaker 1: are actually a lot of people out wandering the countryside
Speaker 1: because people in some of the cities had actually been
Speaker 1: bombed out, they lost their homes, They were kind of
Speaker 1: refugees within England. Other people decided to get the hell
Speaker 1: out of the city's just for safety's sake, because they
Speaker 1: were catching some bombs from the Germans and so they
Speaker 1: were Actually there was a lot more mobility in England
Speaker 1: at this time than they normally was, so there were
Speaker 1: there were people out in the countryside wandering around. Very
Speaker 1: easy for some ne're do well from London to pop
Speaker 1: into some little village or another and just murder somebody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it was a pretty stylized murder, it really was.
Speaker 1: And if what was his name, the investigator, Fabian, if
Speaker 1: he was able to dig up something that happened over
Speaker 1: a hundred years ago that was quote unquote identical, it
Speaker 1: seems he would have been able to find if some
Speaker 1: other somebody brought that to somebody. He didn't dig it up.
Speaker 1: Somebody brought the seventy year old, sure, but there was
Speaker 1: enough stuff around this that I don't know. I forgot
Speaker 1: to mention that that that murder from um, it turns
Speaker 1: out that was a little bit exaggerated. Yeah, it turns
Speaker 1: out that James Haywood, the murderer, actually just attacked her
Speaker 1: with the pitchfork and not didn't pain her to the ground.
Speaker 1: He just stabbed her, you know. And she didn't die
Speaker 1: right away, No, No, she was taken off to her
Speaker 1: I think her daughter's home, and she eventually died later
Speaker 1: that day, late in the evening. She did die from
Speaker 1: the wounds. Oh yeah, she definitely died. He was tried
Speaker 1: for it, but he wasn't hanged. As the story says
Speaker 1: with the sanitarium. Yeah, he was. He was declared not
Speaker 1: guilty because of insanity, and he spent the rest of
Speaker 1: his life in an insane asylum where he died. And
Speaker 1: uh so that story was not quite correct. Um. And
Speaker 1: there was also some allegations that potentially an attendant was
Speaker 1: related to Charlie, although again it's at such a reach. Well,
Speaker 1: it's a tenuous connection. And again it doesn't really mean much.
Speaker 1: I mean in rural England and again and probably a
Speaker 1: lot of other places to people are living in these
Speaker 1: little villages and farms, probably a lot of those people
Speaker 1: are related and a tenuous way or another second third cousins,
Speaker 1: I mean, probably all over the place. So it doesn't
Speaker 1: mean squat really. Well, back to a serial killer, I guess,
Speaker 1: I guess there's not much to say about that except that,
Speaker 1: you know, if he went around and murdered a few
Speaker 1: people here here and there, and if he buried his
Speaker 1: m o a little bit. One of the things you
Speaker 1: got to remember about about Charlie. I said he was
Speaker 1: seventy four years old, he had been working outside his
Speaker 1: entire life. He probably looked older than he was from
Speaker 1: just all that. Yeah, and so you see this guy,
Speaker 1: you know, walking with the cannon everything, you know, hobbling
Speaker 1: around about to work on the hedge, and you're thinking
Speaker 1: easy pickings and walk over him, shove him down, I know.
Speaker 1: And it turns out that turns out the old guy
Speaker 1: is a lot stronger than he actually looks. He puts
Speaker 1: up a fight, in which case, you know, you start,
Speaker 1: you start using all the weapons at your disposal, and
Speaker 1: so maybe turned into a sort of a bigger brew
Speaker 1: haha than you actually intended it to. So I there's
Speaker 1: another theory on here that I think is more are
Speaker 1: appropriate for this. But calling it a serial killer I
Speaker 1: think is an incorrect naming for this entire scenario that
Speaker 1: we've just talked about. Yeah, I mean, this could be
Speaker 1: just a random attack. That's not a serial killer scenario
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, so I'm careful to throw I just
Speaker 1: I don't want to throw serial killer on everything. No exactly.
Speaker 1: I mean, granted that gets us higher rankings and iTunes,
Speaker 1: but it's not the truth. No, not not at all. Okay,
Speaker 1: that theory you're thinking about, I think is the one
Speaker 1: labeled thrill killed by local high school kids. That actually
Speaker 1: not that one. I like that one. Yeah, Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the entire theory, right there. I know that kind
Speaker 1: of is. Yeah. So yeah, well you've heard all the evidence.
Speaker 1: I like it, but you know, yeah, and you made
Speaker 1: it up. That's why you like it. They made a
Speaker 1: movie about this. I know what you did less Valentine's
Speaker 1: and that. Yeah. Okay, well I'll move on to our
Speaker 1: next theory, which is actually kind of similar to the
Speaker 1: serial killer, which is a robbery gone wrong. It's essentially identical.
Speaker 1: Well again, if you want of these guys and you're
Speaker 1: and you're on the road, you're kind of homeless, you've
Speaker 1: been made into her refuge and stuff. I mean, it
Speaker 1: might have it might have occurred to you to do
Speaker 1: a little robbery. Ah, the way you picked Charlie, I
Speaker 1: don't know. You didn't exactly look like a wealthy guy.
Speaker 1: But at the same time he looked that you might
Speaker 1: have looked like really easy pickings. Uh So the only
Speaker 1: thing that I can think about to make this or
Speaker 1: not the high school kids, but the random killer bit
Speaker 1: work is Charlie was known to take his lunch with him,
Speaker 1: and so if you were walking on the road or
Speaker 1: you're walking through the area and you're hungry and you
Speaker 1: see a guy with a sandwich and he's got it
Speaker 1: in an apple, and you say, I'm sorry, I'm really
Speaker 1: really hungry, could I have an apple please? And he
Speaker 1: cusses you out for asking for an apple because you
Speaker 1: and every other Tom, Dick and Harry you're coming through
Speaker 1: here and ask me my food. Stop it, and somebody
Speaker 1: loses their mind over that. I mean that, that's that's
Speaker 1: the best motive I can come up for with this,
Speaker 1: the random attacks scenario that I don't know he because
Speaker 1: he doesn't look rich. He doesn't look rich, but he
Speaker 1: also seems like the kind of guy who totally would
Speaker 1: give you an apple if you were walking past. He
Speaker 1: probably at the very least would have been polite about it,
Speaker 1: although you never know his fly wasn't done. He might
Speaker 1: have he might have said, oh he didn't want the
Speaker 1: sandwich that bad? Well, oh no different, yeah, no kidding,
Speaker 1: but yeah again, it could have been like you said,
Speaker 1: it's sort of a random sort of racing and somebody
Speaker 1: wanted to rob him. And then it turns out, like
Speaker 1: I said in the previous series, that they bit off
Speaker 1: more than they thought they were gonna be biting off,
Speaker 1: and and they had to you know, basically really do
Speaker 1: a lot to subdue Charlie and in the end wind
Speaker 1: up going a little overboard because by this time, especially
Speaker 1: if you're just kind of a punk mentality, you're ever thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: this old guy should have been a pushover. Now I'm angry,
Speaker 1: you know, and then you go after him great guns
Speaker 1: and guess on the other hand, you know, he bought
Speaker 1: this watch used it wasn't some family and that was
Speaker 1: the only thing that was really missing from him, right yeah,
Speaker 1: And it might not have it might not have been
Speaker 1: taken from him. Maybe he didn't have it on him, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, or he did have it on him. And
Speaker 1: you know when somebody said, all right, old man, give
Speaker 1: me your watch, like, you know, are you really going
Speaker 1: to I don't know. I might mean obviously because he's
Speaker 1: been dead for a longer been I've been alive. But
Speaker 1: I you know, I guess in my mind, I kind
Speaker 1: of think, like, really, you're gonna you're gonna fight somebody
Speaker 1: over a crappy little watch. I mean, okay, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe, yeah, I I don't know. Charlie might
Speaker 1: have just like you know, especially from that older generation,
Speaker 1: I mean, people might have been more inclined to look
Speaker 1: at things in moral terms. And I'm thinking, this guy
Speaker 1: wants to rob me. You know, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: permit it, just on general principles through him, you know,
Speaker 1: and all that. And you know, Charlie might have felt like,
Speaker 1: actually he was well armed, and you know, maybe he
Speaker 1: had one of his weapons on him. He knew how
Speaker 1: to use the what was it, It wasn't called the
Speaker 1: bill hook. He was obviously a rather handy with the
Speaker 1: slash hook. Yeah, probably could would have felt like he
Speaker 1: could defend himself. Yeah yeah, but apparently not quite capable
Speaker 1: enough unfortunately for him. Uh So, under our next theory,
Speaker 1: I mean, the robberty gone wrong is also is really
Speaker 1: a possibility, I think, but you know, who knows. Again,
Speaker 1: sad to tell you, we haven't reached quite the end here.
Speaker 1: This one is probably not going to get solved, not
Speaker 1: for the next dirty seconds, at least until we solve it. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna name the killer Jack. The ripper Jack would
Speaker 1: have been probably at least seventy five in this time,
Speaker 1: because his last murder was in correct, I think that
Speaker 1: sounds right. Yeah, it's been so long since I've looked
Speaker 1: at his dates. Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: let's say Jack started young and it was a team. Okay,
Speaker 1: you would have been born in the eighteen seventies, same
Speaker 1: years Charlie. Maybe he took two old cores fighting in Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's why. That's why Jack was. It was the wound
Speaker 1: from from left to right or from right to left.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry this this is fun, but that's a good one.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I know. Well, there's also, of course the
Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer, and it's not. Yeah. Yeah, so let's see
Speaker 1: what we're gonna like, Hang on a second here, I
Speaker 1: am gonna go for this one. I think that's uh,
Speaker 1: it was a random killing. I don't think anybody in
Speaker 1: the village really had an incentive to kill him. I
Speaker 1: don't think anybody had an incentive to kill him in
Speaker 1: such a huge, horrible way. I mean, it's something if
Speaker 1: I wanted to kill Charlie and I lived in that
Speaker 1: what I would do is I would bash him over
Speaker 1: the head with a rock and leave his bodyline near
Speaker 1: a rock in the grass. So maybe it looked like
Speaker 1: possibly he just tripped and fell and bashed his head.
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't do something super spectacular in a
Speaker 1: tiny village and then trying to make it. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: is this a Mr Bean scenario where he he trips
Speaker 1: on a rock and the pitchfork goes flying and the
Speaker 1: flashok hits him and bounces off and then he gets
Speaker 1: knocked in the head and then he falls. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I don't think so. I just think that
Speaker 1: it was it was not somebody from the village. I
Speaker 1: I just really find it hard to believe somebody from
Speaker 1: the village would have done that. I agree, Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I'm just taking some random, some random thrill kill murder.
Speaker 1: Perhaps that that seems like the most likely. I mean,
Speaker 1: it could. I think that the whole witchcraft angle is
Speaker 1: WHOI But I also think that there is the possibility
Speaker 1: that somebody in the village knew something or was responsible.
Speaker 1: It's really small chance, but I can't I can't rule
Speaker 1: that out entirely. Yeah, it could have it could have
Speaker 1: been I mean, actually, you know, there could have been
Speaker 1: one person in the village who was a murderer. That
Speaker 1: could have been I mean, yeah, he could have He
Speaker 1: could have been a dirty old man for all we know.
Speaker 1: When he was pinching some girls Fani every time he
Speaker 1: saw and her dad or brother had enough. I mean
Speaker 1: that happens that used to happen. You know, you've defended
Speaker 1: her honor by taking the guy's head. Yeah yeah, but
Speaker 1: I think it was random to know most likely, but
Speaker 1: we don't think we'll ever know. Um okay, So that's
Speaker 1: it for this this episode. So a few administrative details
Speaker 1: here at number one. You probably want to know how
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Speaker 1: fantastic mystery, I'm signing off. This is Jose to lou By.
Speaker 1: So I have this hedge that needs trimming. Can you
Speaker 1: guys come and take a look at it? And I
Speaker 1: got this d a specialty. Okay, fine, bye guys,