WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Witchcraft Murder 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.400 Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by the Tupac 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:05.960 is definitely dead, so stop looking for him foundation. Instead, 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.760 it's brought to you by crime Conen. We're gonna be there. 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:13.880 It's Friday June nine through Sunday June eleven, two seventeen, 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:19.480 obviously at the Marriott in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. Uh. There's 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:22.360 gonna be a lot of great guests, some really unique experiences. 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:24.840 There's apparently going to be canine search dogs, so finally 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.240 we'll get to understand what exactly they do. If you 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:31.840 use the code sideways twenty, you'll get off your purchase 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:34.080 and there are some deals. You know, it gets more 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.479 expensive the closer you get, So buy your tickets now, No, seriously, 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:39.720 buy your tickets now. Um, and then we'll be there 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.440 and we'll get to meet you. So sideways twenty at 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:46.560 crime con dot com. Uh. You can find links to 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:48.640 that on our website as well. I just want to 0:00:48.640 --> 0:01:08.440 remind you Crimeen, whoa oh, I don't know stories of things. 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:13.440 We simply don't know the answer too. Hi there, welcome 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.920 to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your host for 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:22.360 this week, Joe, joined as usual by and Steve and uh, 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:24.839 the team this week there, we're going to tackle another 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.440 really awesome mystery. H First off, I'd like to thank 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:32.080 Sean who suggested this like two years ago at least. 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.319 So thanks Sean. Appreciate it. Kind of an interesting little 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:40.319 story here. It's great, Yeah, began murder is always fun 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:45.399 ours definitely. Yeah. I just picked up a book about 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:48.400 the Victorians and murder and the evolution of the murder mystery, 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:50.960 and the authors I think sums it up very nicely, 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:54.160 is that people really love murder. In this author of 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:56.560 this book, it's called The Invention of Murder, and she 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:59.160 describes it quite well. It's that people really love murder. 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:02.680 It's like listening to to a big rainstorm when you're 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.320 inside your house and the heaters on your warm and 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:08.600 snug and dry. That's why it's like murders great when 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.520 it's happened to somebody else, and it's really true. I 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:14.560 saw that book at your table, and that thing will 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:16.760 hold your door open. It's a huge book. It's a 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:18.600 big old book. It got a lot of great blurbs. 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:21.400 There we go. Yeah, so that's a sign of success. 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:23.760 It must be good. I'm only about five pages in 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:27.160 so far, so we'll see. Uh back to our thing though. 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:31.280 Uh So our murder mystery began on Valentine's Day, that 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.400 would be February fourteen, and it happened in the village 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.680 of Lower Quinton in Warwickshire, England. Lower Quintin is about 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:41.880 six miles south of Stratford upon Avon, whish we will 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:46.160 all know is the birthplace of the sex Pistols. Yeah, 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:48.680 that's all it's known for him. Yeah, this is This 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:50.519 might be the closest I've been to one of our 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.320 European mysteries. Actually, I was in Stratford upon Avon once. 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:55.880 I've also been there. Yeah, so about six miles away 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.320 from from the murder. I probably drove by it, he 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.640 probably did. Yeah, it's kind of in the middle of everything, 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.760 so it's very easy to drop through there. Uh, national 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.200 to place. I like Stratford. I think that's where I 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:11.160 saw my first European McDonald's. Yeah, but it was tastefully done. 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:13.640 They did a good job, Thank God for that. Yeah, 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.200 now that now that we've got that out of the way. Yeah, 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.880 they did a good job of incorporating into the local architecture. Uh. 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:24.600 I'll back to Clinton or Quinton. Lord Quintin is a tight, 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:28.120 tiny village of four hundred nine three people at the time. 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:30.880 Of course it's a little bigger today. And it was 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:33.040 as the scene of a murder. And actually it was 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.160 a pretty horrific murder. You guys have read about this. 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:40.760 It was pretty nasty, pretty brutal on February four and 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.160 but as if the murder wasn't bad enough, soon there 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:47.960 were allegations and rumors of supernatural activities and witchcraft that 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.320 began circulating around town and coming to the attention of 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.360 the police and the press, and the case became known 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:58.000 as the witchcraft murder. So that's what we're talking about. Yeah, 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:02.119 the witchcraft murder pretty well known in Britain. I think, yeah, 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:04.880 they've been running with it for a while. Uh, yeah, 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:08.800 they have been. Uh and it's yeah. Scotland Yard actually 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.840 did a very extensive investigation of this murder because originally 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.200 that the local constable called the Stratford police to come 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:17.560 and investigate and they felt like they were in a 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.520 little bit over their heads, so they called in Scotland 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.520 Yard to investigate this and uh, and I guess who 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:26.320 shows up but Robert Fabian, fame detective. They did a 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.320 TV show about him called Fabian of the Yard. I 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:37.480 think it was two years that ran in or during 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:39.480 his ten year as a detective stuff. I think that 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:41.679 might have been actually retired and they started writing books 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:44.960 about his too much longer though, yeah, not not much longer. 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.000 I'm sure he was still alive and so they That 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.760 wasn't one of the earliest TV shows in the BBC. Yeah, 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.600 as Joe would say, he parlayed his career at Scotland 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.120 Yard into a lucrative career as an author and then 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.440 turning that into this TV series. That's my plan with 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:02.440 this podcast actually, yeah, it's probably I'm gonna give it 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.479 about another year and then I'm gonna cut and run 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:09.839 and just like turn it into some Nancy Grace ask. Yeah, 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.680 I can steal the domain from this and all the passwords. Yeah, 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:16.479 I'm going to start writing novels about it, like you know, 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:18.680 like say, dB keeper gets winned the fact that I'm 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:20.800 hot on his trail and he starts to murder us all. 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:22.600 You know. So that would be a kind of a 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:26.360 good Hardy Boys esque kind of mystery. Yeah. So I'll 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.840 probably never get around to it, actually, but it would 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:32.520 be fun go back to our mystery here called in 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.919 ye Robert Fabian was called in. Much investigating was done, 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.160 and they came up with basically nothing. And it didn't 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:41.520 really help that none of the people of Laura Quinton 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:45.800 were actually willing to admit knowing anything about the murder. Uh. 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.559 And I think that this episode, the whole thing about 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:51.400 Laura Quinton and the Witchcraft murders, I think it became 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:55.080 a basis for a theme that we've seen in movies 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.040 and TV shows, et cetera, which is the tiny town 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:00.640 with the dark, dark secret, you know, the I'm talking about, 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:03.279 you know, and the protagonist, like you know, it gets 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:04.960 some guy out of the corner who's about to tell 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.360 the truth, and then somebody else shouts him down and says, 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:11.920 shut the hold up. Such a bloody goot, you know 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.640 what I'm talking about? Right, Yeah, yeah, we're all seeing that. 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.279 And I think that might have originated here, the big 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:21.440 wall of silenced. I just can't imagine that this is 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.520 the first time that's ever happened. But maybe, yeah, probably not. 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:26.440 But yeah, I didn't start out with ken McElroy. It 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.840 actually happened earlier than Kenya believe it or not. Realistically, 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:33.280 like I said, I bet it happened before it could 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.800 have been. And I know we're going to bring it up. 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:37.719 But the press really got a hold of this, the 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.560 British press, and so there's a lot of stuff in 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:43.159 here that is kind of fun to unpack and see 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.360 where the truth really lies. Yeah, and part of that 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.760 the villagers wouldn't talk, I feel is in there. Yeah. 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:53.680 I think we get a little little ahead of ourselves here, 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.920 and she probably start with the victim and we're here. Yeah. 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.080 I guess we haven't even said who died yet. I know, 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:02.760 I know that's that's talk about that. Charles Walton, a K. Charlie, 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:05.919 I was born in Lower Quenttin in eighteen seventy And 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:09.120 did you have a prinsity for biting fingers? That's a 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:13.000 good question. I don't know's that cultural reference I'm not getting. Yeah, 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:16.520 I figured as much. Yeah. So I've got his biography here, 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:18.800 I've I've drotted it down and I've condensed it to 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.320 about ten pages, So settle in. It's gonna be about 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.640 three hours now, just kidding. Uh. There was a period 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.360 Charlie's adolescence when he went off to a boarding school 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.800 called ward Hogs or something, like that was that for 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.280 witches and wizards and a train station nine and three 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.360 quarters nobody really knows, okay, but yeah. After his return 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:40.480 to Lower Quentin And, Charlie had a fairly normal life 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:43.680 working as a farm laborer. Uh. He was reported to 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:45.640 have a gift for animals. In his youth. He was 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:47.920 a good horse trainer, and it was said that birds 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:49.880 would flock to him and eat out of his hand. 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:55.400 So he was a disney princess apparently. Uh, he could 0:07:55.440 --> 0:08:00.000 tame wild dogs with a few words. Disney princess. Yeah. 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.120 And although he wasn't a friendly guy, and he was 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.680 generally well regarded by the villagers, he kind of kept 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.480 to himself, and when he was seeing at the local pub, 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:09.600 he was usually sitting at a quarner by himself, sipping 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:11.880 on an ail and puffing on his pipe with his 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.800 perfectly normal red bluing coals where his eyes should have 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:20.200 been inserted. That yeah, um line, It's hard to know 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.880 with Charlie's bio exactly where the life ends and the 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.000 fiction begins. I could I could guess by the things 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.760 that he was dealing with in life that he might 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:34.320 have been a little standoffish, just because of the things 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:35.720 that he went through, which I knew we're gonna talk 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:37.960 about here shortly. But I don't think that he was 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.840 some crazy lunar, no, no. I think he was sociable enough, 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:43.640 but he just he just wasn't the kind of guy 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:45.360 that actually got out and hung out in the pubble lot. 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:47.720 For one thing, he wasn't that wealthy. He probably didn't 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:49.040 have a lot of money to spread around, so he 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:50.800 probably didn't go down there and waste a lot of 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:53.520 money on on guinness and stuff. But he was generally, 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:57.199 like I said, pretty well regarded by the villagers. Charlie 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.320 lived in a rented cottage in Lower Quinton with his 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:03.160 wife Uh and then when his sister died, they adopted 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.280 her daughter, Edith, who was also known as d And 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:08.240 that was she was at the age of three right then. 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:12.240 And then in next seven Charlie's wife died and and 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:14.560 he and Edith continued to live on in the same 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.840 cottage and they lived there for years up until he 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.559 died and uh and by the way, he edith dad 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.360 apparently was still alive. Apparently he was not interested in 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:28.520 raising her, So that's why Charlie and his wife adopted Edith. Yeah. Yeah, 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:31.920 nice of them, I thought, Yeah, yeah, stepped up. Yeah. 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.480 And also, as I mentioned, the year was, which is 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:38.760 most of you probably know, that was when the war 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.880 in Europe was when down World War two. That's what 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.560 it said in all the newsreels. Yeah, yeah, the other 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:48.600 Great war. Yeah, the next Great War. Yeah, it wasn't 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:51.280 that great. It was big, but it wasn't great. It 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.800 was great for some people, but it really sucked for 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:58.480 most people. Yeah, yeah, big time. But V Day, which 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.320 was victory in Europe, that was just a few months away. 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:03.680 The Allies were doing really well. They were winning all 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:05.560 over the place, and the world was pretty much a 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.199 done deal. Everybody seemed to agree. Germany had not yet surrendered, 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.040 but it was just a matter of time. And at 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.559 that time there were some Italian POWs who are being 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.440 held at a prison camp nearby called Long Marston. The 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.120 Long Marston I was able to find. They keep talking 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.000 about it when I hear about it. Is Long Marston 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:24.720 was nearby. The only one I can find in Google 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.320 is like fifty miles away, like to the southeast. But 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:30.480 there must But you know, there could have been another 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:35.320 Long Marston that was closer or isn't about far away. 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:39.280 That's true. It isn't really because there's you know, automobiles 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.200 are everywhere, that's true. And yeah, and so you know 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.600 it could have been. But uh, And the only reason 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.480 I mentioned that the Italian POWs is because they actually 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.080 do play a small part in this mystery, as you 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:54.920 guys probably know. Yeah, because they're foreigners, and hey, there's murder. 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:57.640 Obviously you look at the foreigners first, right, That's the 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:01.040 way it was. Yeah, it kind of is. And so anyway, 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:04.680 at this point I probably really offended our Italian listener, Luigi. 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.360 I'm very sorry. I'm just kidding, guy. Uh, the Italians 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:10.960 didn't do it. Actually, I'm pretty sure they were prisoners, 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:13.400 but they were actually being held under pretty relaxed conditions 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.800 and they could actually leave and come and go say please. 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:17.959 And actually on the day of the murder, some of 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:22.720 the POWs went into Stratford to watch us Shakespeare play 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:25.360 and some other ones want to see a movie. That's 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.640 how relaxed it was. I mean, if you were going 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.240 to be a pow in World War Two, you wanted 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.400 to be these guys. Did you do any reading on 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:36.439 the camps in Britain at that time, so I did 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:38.839 a lot. I didn't do a huge amount, but I did. 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:40.839 I was just kind of curious about how they were 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.360 running because this whole they were free to kind of 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.960 come and go. Things struck me a little strange. And 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.120 this isn't the first time we've talked about this, I'm 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.960 pretty sure, but what I found is that the Italians 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:57.319 were being brought into Britain from about nineteen forty or 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:01.760 forty one forward, and they had pretty lax rules and 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.679 they were pretty willing to go ahead and be laborers 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.200 for the community. That's kind of how they were. That 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:09.960 was their job while they were in the area, so 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.240 they were doing farm labor, So they were they most 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.679 of them seemed to be okay with it. They were 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.000 probably happiest hell to be out of the war. Well yeah, 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:20.760 and that's the thing is that there was there's stuff 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.360 that you find where there's some who were still they'll 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:27.120 see on the wall still written Viva Mussolini, But most 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:28.679 of the guys are like, we don't know who wrote that. No, 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:32.959 we're we're totally happy. It's really but it's funny is 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:37.280 that the tone from camp to camp changed. I found 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:42.319 in the reading from about forward, because the camps that 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:47.839 German soldiers were sent to suddenly had a much stronger 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:51.599 security on them. And I'm sure that that is because 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:56.160 the Italians were just these kind of nice guys, but 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:59.240 the Germans are demonic and we've we can't let them 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:01.800 lose though, old the women and children kind of thing. 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.679 So I'm sure that this uh, this what is this 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.240 camp name again? Yeah, long Marston. I'm sure that it 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:11.520 was probably one of the ones that didn't have any 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:16.280 German po or many German POWs, and therefore they were 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.320 going out working in the area on farms, and that's 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.800 how the system kind of got a little loose. Yeah. 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.160 Crazy what happens when you start thinking about the fact 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:30.080 that soldiers are just like human beings by and large, 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:35.440 like young men probably are totally cool dudes who just 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.080 happened to be fighting for the country they happened to 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.199 be born in, and like don't really have any kind 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:44.280 of serious thing against the people they were fighting against. 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.960 You know that some of those POW's in the Italians, 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.240 there was some rule. I want to say it's for 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.720 the Geneva Convention, but it's probably not, but there was 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:58.720 some rule where it became a thing that Italian men 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:03.960 their wives could emigrate over and live with them in 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.360 the pow camp so that the family wasn't separated. That 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.280 was an okay thing, that it was common enough that 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.160 you find it in the writings. It's not as if 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.600 it was a weirdo one or two off thing. Again 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.320 according to you know, compared to the experiences of most 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:24.480 other POWs you know, that were being held by the Axis. Yeah, 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.880 it should probably be noted too that at that time 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:30.520 nineteen I mean, I think Mussolini was deposed, but in 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:34.440 ninety three he eventually was rescued by the Germans and 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:38.360 they reconstituted us sort of many fascist republic in northern Italy. 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:40.520 When the Germans invaded and took over that part of it, 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:45.280 and there was an anti fascists, you know, anti Mussolini 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.000 faction in the southern parts. So Italy was the middle 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.120 of the Civil War at this time. It might have 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.200 been that that all of these guys, if not most 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.400 of them, actually felt no loyalty at all to Mussolini 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:57.480 at this point in time. Well, and I'll just point 0:14:57.480 --> 0:14:59.600 out that as far as I know, as far as 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.680 you know, there was no huge like crime wave that 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:06.640 came of these being in that area. So we can 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:10.040 pretty much discount that. We're not in theories the Italian 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:12.320 I think. So you never know, I mean, there could 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.040 be outliers in there, but yeah, well population, yeah, yeah, 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.680 do we want to keep talking about Charlie's Let's talk 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.320 more about Charlie and off off the Italians for a while. 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.640 Let's talk about Charlie. He at this time was working, Uh, 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:27.360 he was. He didn't have a farm of his own. 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:29.640 He was a laborer, but he worked at various farms 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:31.120 in the area. And at this time he had been 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.000 working at a local farm called the Furs and he'd 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:37.840 been there about nine months. And his job that day 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.720 was to clear hedges. And so, as you know in Britain, 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.840 they've got those head hedgerows that sort of separate fields 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.760 and separate roads from fields and stuff like that. And 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:48.800 of course with hedges, you know you wanted to grow up, 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:51.760 not out, but they being hedges, they want to grow out. 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:55.280 So you gotta cooperate. Now you gotta whack him back, 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:57.400 and so that's what he was doing. He left his 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.520 house around nine am and by the his house is 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:02.320 still there. You can see pictures of it on the 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:06.080 Worldwide Web. It is still there. Yeah. I must not 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:09.160 have even just made the connection when I saw the picture. Okay, yeah, 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.040 and it's still there. Uh. He had it was like 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:18.200 a like three interconnected cottages that eventually somebody bought combined 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.360 him into one nice big house. But apparently so the 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.720 structure is still yeah. Yeah, it's cool. Well, nobody got 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.320 murdered there. They got murdered somewhere else, thank god. So 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.600 he headed up on the furs. There's this thing called 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:34.160 Mayon Hill. Although I might be mispronouncing that. It might 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.520 be me On, but I think it's may On. And 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.840 so he started clearing hedge and this is at nine 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.280 o'clock in the morning. On Apparently he was seeing walk 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.440 in that direction about not between nine and nine um. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.800 And he was carrying his walking stick because he had 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.680 arthritis too. He was he was like seventy five. He 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.520 was born in eighteen seventy, so he was seventy four 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:00.360 and still working in the fields. This is nineteen huh. 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:03.400 So his birthday was in May eighteen seventies, so this 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:08.440 is February. So yeah, he had turned Yeah, see it 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:10.919 his walking stick. I got his walking stick as he 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.479 had already and uh, he also had him with him 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:17.240 that he just abbreviated our you do. Don't don't be 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:22.480 abbreviating like that. Yeah, let's see what else. The ide 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:25.280 had a pitchfork and he had a slash hook, which 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.639 were his tools with the trade. Uh. And I know 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:29.639 you all know what a pitchfork is. If you don't 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:30.959 hold your hand up in front of you with your 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:35.800 fingers extended. Now rotate your hand now, is it a 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:40.600 two or three pronged pitchfork? I never question. I mean 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:42.199 most of the ones you see are like, are like 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:45.320 four prong ones. I saw one on the BBC that 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.160 was actually a two pronged pitchforks. That's why I'm asking. 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.439 I think the older ones were too prong I believe 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:52.600 it was a two prong Yeah. Again, hard to say, 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.160 but I think it was. As far as the slash 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:58.159 hook goes, I've seen pictures of the slash hooks and 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:01.560 they're all they come in all different style. A lot 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:03.639 of them are sort of shaped like a sickle, like 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.240 curvesickle with a long hand knife on one edge and 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:09.520 straight edge on the other. Yeah, kind of like that, 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:12.760 kind of shaped almost like a cowboy boot. Yeah, and 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:14.639 kind of yeah, kind of kind of a nice little 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.800 thing for clear and broun. Okay, you look at me. Funny. 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:19.760 It was just not a way I would have thought 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:23.000 to describe it. But it's pretty good. Or it looks 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:26.400 like Italy for Italy, if you grabbed Europe and turn 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:31.720 it upside Yeah, alright, so yeah I say that, you 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:35.800 know I did that. Italy totally looks like a slash hook. Yeah, 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.760 and they're totally right. Yeah, yeah, And uh, of course 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.600 the slash work, besides being a great brush clearing tool, 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.720 would be a great murder weapon. Apparently, yeah, it really 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:49.000 would be. And actually, when you think about the walking 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.400 stick that he was carrying, and also the pitchwork wouldn't 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:55.439 be such bad murder weapons either. And as it happens, 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:58.400 Charlie carried all the murder weapons to the place where 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.280 he was killed, because appears that all of them were 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:03.720 used on him. And that's that's what I did. I 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:07.879 say it was a murder. Yeah. The last reports of 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:12.440 him alive were between about twelve new and twelve thirty 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.560 and those were by Alfred J. Potter, who managed the 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.560 first again that was the farm that Charlie was working 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:22.320 on that window isn't firm. Yeah, now he changed his 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:24.640 time quite a few times. Yeah, I was gonna say 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:26.560 I saw it. It felt like it could have gone 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.280 all the way out to one o'clock, possibly depending on 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:34.200 his versions. Yeah, and so it's a little and so yeah, 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.160 a little bit. Well, I think one of the ways 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:38.879 they sort of fixed at one pm, because it was 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.840 believed was concluded later on that the murder probably happened 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.040 between one and two pm on that day. And he 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:46.719 said that he saw that at about twelve thirty and 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.560 it appeared that he had X number of yards of 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:52.879 hedge left to clear at that time. Of course he 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.760 saw from like five hundred yards away. That's a long ways, 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.840 but when he actually found his body, about four more 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:00.639 yards of hedge have been clear heard, and it was 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.119 at Potter's estimate that it would take about half an 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.840 hour to do that work. So one o'clock that kind 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.480 of works. And you said he had been working for 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:12.600 Potter for how long? About nine months, although that's kind 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:15.640 of actually that at this time, but he actually had 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:18.240 been working for him on and off for about five years, 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.800 because yeah, Potter had been managing this farm for about 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:24.879 five years, and so he had lots of experience with 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.280 Charlie and some of the other local labors. Apparently he 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.520 managed it for a company that was owned by his dad, 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:33.200 So it's a family business. Family business. Yeah. So okay, 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:37.520 So sometime around one to the population of Lower Quentin 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.400 dropped from four ninety three to four ninety two. So 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.440 that's not a surprise. I guess we knew it was coming. 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.280 Oh yeah, we kind of did. Yeah, it's kind of 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:49.040 to be expected when you hear the words, you know, witchcraft, murder. Yeah. 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.720 And so Edith remember eating his niece. She she was 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:55.679 working in a factory and she got home about six 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.719 and I guess what, Charlie wasn't there. And because Charlie 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.920 was pretty regular in his habits, she became a little 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:06.919 bit worried about him. So she went and found her neighbor, 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:10.800 guy named Harry Beasley, and they went looking for Alfred 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:14.679