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Speaker 1: it's brought to you by crime Conen. We're gonna be there.

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Speaker 1: It's Friday June nine through Sunday June eleven, two seventeen,

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Speaker 1: obviously at the Marriott in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. Uh. There's

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Speaker 1: and there are some deals. You know, it gets more

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Speaker 1: buy your tickets now. Um, and then we'll be there

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Speaker 1: and we'll get to meet you. So sideways twenty at

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Speaker 1: crime con dot com. Uh. You can find links to

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Speaker 1: that on our website as well. I just want to

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Speaker 1: remind you Crimeen, whoa oh, I don't know stories of things.

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Speaker 1: We simply don't know the answer too. Hi there, welcome

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Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your host for

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Speaker 1: this week, Joe, joined as usual by and Steve and uh,

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Speaker 1: the team this week there, we're going to tackle another

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Speaker 1: really awesome mystery. H First off, I'd like to thank

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Speaker 1: Sean who suggested this like two years ago at least.

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Speaker 1: So thanks Sean. Appreciate it. Kind of an interesting little

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Speaker 1: story here. It's great, Yeah, began murder is always fun

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Speaker 1: ours definitely. Yeah. I just picked up a book about

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Speaker 1: the Victorians and murder and the evolution of the murder mystery,

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Speaker 1: and the authors I think sums it up very nicely,

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Speaker 1: is that people really love murder. In this author of

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Speaker 1: this book, it's called The Invention of Murder, and she

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Speaker 1: describes it quite well. It's that people really love murder.

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Speaker 1: It's like listening to to a big rainstorm when you're

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Speaker 1: inside your house and the heaters on your warm and

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Speaker 1: snug and dry. That's why it's like murders great when

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Speaker 1: it's happened to somebody else, and it's really true. I

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Speaker 1: saw that book at your table, and that thing will

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Speaker 1: hold your door open. It's a huge book. It's a

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Speaker 1: big old book. It got a lot of great blurbs.

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Speaker 1: There we go. Yeah, so that's a sign of success.

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Speaker 1: It must be good. I'm only about five pages in

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Speaker 1: so far, so we'll see. Uh back to our thing though.

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Speaker 1: Uh So our murder mystery began on Valentine's Day, that

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Speaker 1: would be February fourteen, and it happened in the village

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Speaker 1: of Lower Quinton in Warwickshire, England. Lower Quintin is about

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Speaker 1: six miles south of Stratford upon Avon, whish we will

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Speaker 1: all know is the birthplace of the sex Pistols. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's all it's known for him. Yeah, this is This

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Speaker 1: might be the closest I've been to one of our

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Speaker 1: European mysteries. Actually, I was in Stratford upon Avon once.

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Speaker 1: I've also been there. Yeah, so about six miles away

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Speaker 1: from from the murder. I probably drove by it, he

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Speaker 1: probably did. Yeah, it's kind of in the middle of everything,

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Speaker 1: so it's very easy to drop through there. Uh, national

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Speaker 1: to place. I like Stratford. I think that's where I

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Speaker 1: saw my first European McDonald's. Yeah, but it was tastefully done.

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Speaker 1: They did a good job, Thank God for that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: now that now that we've got that out of the way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they did a good job of incorporating into the local architecture. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I'll back to Clinton or Quinton. Lord Quintin is a tight,

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Speaker 1: tiny village of four hundred nine three people at the time.

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Speaker 1: Of course it's a little bigger today. And it was

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Speaker 1: as the scene of a murder. And actually it was

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Speaker 1: a pretty horrific murder. You guys have read about this.

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Speaker 1: It was pretty nasty, pretty brutal on February four and

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Speaker 1: but as if the murder wasn't bad enough, soon there

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Speaker 1: were allegations and rumors of supernatural activities and witchcraft that

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Speaker 1: began circulating around town and coming to the attention of

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Speaker 1: the police and the press, and the case became known

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Speaker 1: as the witchcraft murder. So that's what we're talking about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the witchcraft murder pretty well known in Britain. I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they've been running with it for a while. Uh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they have been. Uh and it's yeah. Scotland Yard actually

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Speaker 1: did a very extensive investigation of this murder because originally

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Speaker 1: that the local constable called the Stratford police to come

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Speaker 1: and investigate and they felt like they were in a

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Speaker 1: little bit over their heads, so they called in Scotland

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Speaker 1: Yard to investigate this and uh, and I guess who

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Speaker 1: shows up but Robert Fabian, fame detective. They did a

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Speaker 1: TV show about him called Fabian of the Yard. I

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Speaker 1: think it was two years that ran in or during

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Speaker 1: his ten year as a detective stuff. I think that

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Speaker 1: might have been actually retired and they started writing books

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Speaker 1: about his too much longer though, yeah, not not much longer.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure he was still alive and so they That

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Speaker 1: wasn't one of the earliest TV shows in the BBC. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: as Joe would say, he parlayed his career at Scotland

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Speaker 1: Yard into a lucrative career as an author and then

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Speaker 1: turning that into this TV series. That's my plan with

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Speaker 1: this podcast actually, yeah, it's probably I'm gonna give it

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Speaker 1: about another year and then I'm gonna cut and run

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Speaker 1: and just like turn it into some Nancy Grace ask. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can steal the domain from this and all the passwords. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to start writing novels about it, like you know,

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Speaker 1: like say, dB keeper gets winned the fact that I'm

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Speaker 1: hot on his trail and he starts to murder us all.

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Speaker 1: You know. So that would be a kind of a

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Speaker 1: good Hardy Boys esque kind of mystery. Yeah. So I'll

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Speaker 1: probably never get around to it, actually, but it would

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Speaker 1: be fun go back to our mystery here called in

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Speaker 1: ye Robert Fabian was called in. Much investigating was done,

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Speaker 1: and they came up with basically nothing. And it didn't

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Speaker 1: really help that none of the people of Laura Quinton

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Speaker 1: were actually willing to admit knowing anything about the murder. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I think that this episode, the whole thing about

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Speaker 1: Laura Quinton and the Witchcraft murders, I think it became

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Speaker 1: a basis for a theme that we've seen in movies

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Speaker 1: and TV shows, et cetera, which is the tiny town

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Speaker 1: with the dark, dark secret, you know, the I'm talking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, and the protagonist, like you know, it gets

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Speaker 1: some guy out of the corner who's about to tell

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Speaker 1: the truth, and then somebody else shouts him down and says,

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Speaker 1: shut the hold up. Such a bloody goot, you know

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Speaker 1: what I'm talking about? Right, Yeah, yeah, we're all seeing that.

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Speaker 1: And I think that might have originated here, the big

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Speaker 1: wall of silenced. I just can't imagine that this is

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Speaker 1: the first time that's ever happened. But maybe, yeah, probably not.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I didn't start out with ken McElroy. It

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Speaker 1: actually happened earlier than Kenya believe it or not. Realistically,

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Speaker 1: like I said, I bet it happened before it could

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Speaker 1: have been. And I know we're going to bring it up.

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Speaker 1: But the press really got a hold of this, the

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Speaker 1: British press, and so there's a lot of stuff in

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Speaker 1: here that is kind of fun to unpack and see

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Speaker 1: where the truth really lies. Yeah, and part of that

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Speaker 1: the villagers wouldn't talk, I feel is in there. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think we get a little little ahead of ourselves here,

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Speaker 1: and she probably start with the victim and we're here. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I guess we haven't even said who died yet. I know,

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Speaker 1: I know that's that's talk about that. Charles Walton, a K. Charlie,

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Speaker 1: I was born in Lower Quenttin in eighteen seventy And

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Speaker 1: did you have a prinsity for biting fingers? That's a

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Speaker 1: good question. I don't know's that cultural reference I'm not getting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I figured as much. Yeah. So I've got his biography here,

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Speaker 1: I've I've drotted it down and I've condensed it to

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Speaker 1: about ten pages, So settle in. It's gonna be about

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Speaker 1: three hours now, just kidding. Uh. There was a period

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Speaker 1: Charlie's adolescence when he went off to a boarding school

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Speaker 1: called ward Hogs or something, like that was that for

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Speaker 1: witches and wizards and a train station nine and three

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Speaker 1: quarters nobody really knows, okay, but yeah. After his return

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Speaker 1: to Lower Quentin And, Charlie had a fairly normal life

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Speaker 1: working as a farm laborer. Uh. He was reported to

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Speaker 1: have a gift for animals. In his youth. He was

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Speaker 1: a good horse trainer, and it was said that birds

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Speaker 1: would flock to him and eat out of his hand.

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Speaker 1: So he was a disney princess apparently. Uh, he could

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Speaker 1: tame wild dogs with a few words. Disney princess. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And although he wasn't a friendly guy, and he was

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Speaker 1: generally well regarded by the villagers, he kind of kept

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Speaker 1: to himself, and when he was seeing at the local pub,

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Speaker 1: he was usually sitting at a quarner by himself, sipping

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Speaker 1: on an ail and puffing on his pipe with his

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Speaker 1: perfectly normal red bluing coals where his eyes should have

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Speaker 1: been inserted. That yeah, um line, It's hard to know

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Speaker 1: with Charlie's bio exactly where the life ends and the

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Speaker 1: fiction begins. I could I could guess by the things

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Speaker 1: that he was dealing with in life that he might

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Speaker 1: have been a little standoffish, just because of the things

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Speaker 1: that he went through, which I knew we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about here shortly. But I don't think that he was

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Speaker 1: some crazy lunar, no, no. I think he was sociable enough,

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Speaker 1: but he just he just wasn't the kind of guy

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Speaker 1: that actually got out and hung out in the pubble lot.

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Speaker 1: For one thing, he wasn't that wealthy. He probably didn't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of money to spread around, so he

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Speaker 1: probably didn't go down there and waste a lot of

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Speaker 1: money on on guinness and stuff. But he was generally,

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Speaker 1: like I said, pretty well regarded by the villagers. Charlie

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Speaker 1: lived in a rented cottage in Lower Quinton with his

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Speaker 1: wife Uh and then when his sister died, they adopted

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Speaker 1: her daughter, Edith, who was also known as d And

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Speaker 1: that was she was at the age of three right then.

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Speaker 1: And then in next seven Charlie's wife died and and

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Speaker 1: he and Edith continued to live on in the same

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Speaker 1: cottage and they lived there for years up until he

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Speaker 1: died and uh and by the way, he edith dad

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Speaker 1: apparently was still alive. Apparently he was not interested in

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Speaker 1: raising her, So that's why Charlie and his wife adopted Edith. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: nice of them, I thought, Yeah, yeah, stepped up. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also, as I mentioned, the year was, which is

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Speaker 1: most of you probably know, that was when the war

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Speaker 1: in Europe was when down World War two. That's what

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Speaker 1: it said in all the newsreels. Yeah, yeah, the other

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Speaker 1: Great war. Yeah, the next Great War. Yeah, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: that great. It was big, but it wasn't great. It

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Speaker 1: was great for some people, but it really sucked for

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Speaker 1: most people. Yeah, yeah, big time. But V Day, which

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Speaker 1: was victory in Europe, that was just a few months away.

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Speaker 1: The Allies were doing really well. They were winning all

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Speaker 1: over the place, and the world was pretty much a

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Speaker 1: done deal. Everybody seemed to agree. Germany had not yet surrendered,

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Speaker 1: but it was just a matter of time. And at

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Speaker 1: that time there were some Italian POWs who are being

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Speaker 1: held at a prison camp nearby called Long Marston. The

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Speaker 1: Long Marston I was able to find. They keep talking

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Speaker 1: about it when I hear about it. Is Long Marston

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Speaker 1: was nearby. The only one I can find in Google

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Speaker 1: is like fifty miles away, like to the southeast. But

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Speaker 1: there must But you know, there could have been another

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Speaker 1: Long Marston that was closer or isn't about far away.

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Speaker 1: That's true. It isn't really because there's you know, automobiles

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Speaker 1: are everywhere, that's true. And yeah, and so you know

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Speaker 1: it could have been. But uh, And the only reason

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Speaker 1: I mentioned that the Italian POWs is because they actually

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Speaker 1: do play a small part in this mystery, as you

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Speaker 1: guys probably know. Yeah, because they're foreigners, and hey, there's murder.

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Speaker 1: Obviously you look at the foreigners first, right, That's the

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Speaker 1: way it was. Yeah, it kind of is. And so anyway,

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Speaker 1: at this point I probably really offended our Italian listener, Luigi.

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Speaker 1: I'm very sorry. I'm just kidding, guy. Uh, the Italians

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Speaker 1: didn't do it. Actually, I'm pretty sure they were prisoners,

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Speaker 1: but they were actually being held under pretty relaxed conditions

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Speaker 1: and they could actually leave and come and go say please.

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Speaker 1: And actually on the day of the murder, some of

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Speaker 1: the POWs went into Stratford to watch us Shakespeare play

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Speaker 1: and some other ones want to see a movie. That's

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Speaker 1: how relaxed it was. I mean, if you were going

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Speaker 1: to be a pow in World War Two, you wanted

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Speaker 1: to be these guys. Did you do any reading on

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Speaker 1: the camps in Britain at that time, so I did

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Speaker 1: a lot. I didn't do a huge amount, but I did.

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Speaker 1: I was just kind of curious about how they were

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Speaker 1: running because this whole they were free to kind of

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Speaker 1: come and go. Things struck me a little strange. And

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Speaker 1: this isn't the first time we've talked about this, I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty sure, but what I found is that the Italians

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Speaker 1: were being brought into Britain from about nineteen forty or

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Speaker 1: forty one forward, and they had pretty lax rules and

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Speaker 1: they were pretty willing to go ahead and be laborers

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Speaker 1: for the community. That's kind of how they were. That

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Speaker 1: was their job while they were in the area, so

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Speaker 1: they were doing farm labor, So they were they most

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Speaker 1: of them seemed to be okay with it. They were

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Speaker 1: probably happiest hell to be out of the war. Well yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's the thing is that there was there's stuff

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Speaker 1: that you find where there's some who were still they'll

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Speaker 1: see on the wall still written Viva Mussolini, But most

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Speaker 1: of the guys are like, we don't know who wrote that. No,

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Speaker 1: we're we're totally happy. It's really but it's funny is

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Speaker 1: that the tone from camp to camp changed. I found

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Speaker 1: in the reading from about forward, because the camps that

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Speaker 1: German soldiers were sent to suddenly had a much stronger

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Speaker 1: security on them. And I'm sure that that is because

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Speaker 1: the Italians were just these kind of nice guys, but

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Speaker 1: the Germans are demonic and we've we can't let them

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Speaker 1: lose though, old the women and children kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So I'm sure that this uh, this what is this

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Speaker 1: camp name again? Yeah, long Marston. I'm sure that it

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Speaker 1: was probably one of the ones that didn't have any

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Speaker 1: German po or many German POWs, and therefore they were

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Speaker 1: going out working in the area on farms, and that's

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Speaker 1: how the system kind of got a little loose. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Crazy what happens when you start thinking about the fact

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Speaker 1: that soldiers are just like human beings by and large,

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Speaker 1: like young men probably are totally cool dudes who just

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Speaker 1: happened to be fighting for the country they happened to

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Speaker 1: be born in, and like don't really have any kind

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Speaker 1: of serious thing against the people they were fighting against.

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Speaker 1: You know that some of those POW's in the Italians,

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Speaker 1: there was some rule. I want to say it's for

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Speaker 1: the Geneva Convention, but it's probably not, but there was

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Speaker 1: some rule where it became a thing that Italian men

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Speaker 1: their wives could emigrate over and live with them in

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Speaker 1: the pow camp so that the family wasn't separated. That

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Speaker 1: was an okay thing, that it was common enough that

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Speaker 1: you find it in the writings. It's not as if

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Speaker 1: it was a weirdo one or two off thing. Again

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Speaker 1: according to you know, compared to the experiences of most

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Speaker 1: other POWs you know, that were being held by the Axis. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it should probably be noted too that at that time

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Speaker 1: nineteen I mean, I think Mussolini was deposed, but in

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Speaker 1: ninety three he eventually was rescued by the Germans and

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Speaker 1: they reconstituted us sort of many fascist republic in northern Italy.

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Speaker 1: When the Germans invaded and took over that part of it,

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Speaker 1: and there was an anti fascists, you know, anti Mussolini

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Speaker 1: faction in the southern parts. So Italy was the middle

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Speaker 1: of the Civil War at this time. It might have

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Speaker 1: been that that all of these guys, if not most

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Speaker 1: of them, actually felt no loyalty at all to Mussolini

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Speaker 1: at this point in time. Well, and I'll just point

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Speaker 1: out that as far as I know, as far as

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Speaker 1: you know, there was no huge like crime wave that

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Speaker 1: came of these being in that area. So we can

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Speaker 1: pretty much discount that. We're not in theories the Italian

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Speaker 1: I think. So you never know, I mean, there could

285
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Speaker 1: be outliers in there, but yeah, well population, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: do we want to keep talking about Charlie's Let's talk

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Speaker 1: more about Charlie and off off the Italians for a while.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about Charlie. He at this time was working, Uh,

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Speaker 1: he was. He didn't have a farm of his own.

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Speaker 1: He was a laborer, but he worked at various farms

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Speaker 1: in the area. And at this time he had been

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Speaker 1: working at a local farm called the Furs and he'd

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Speaker 1: been there about nine months. And his job that day

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Speaker 1: was to clear hedges. And so, as you know in Britain,

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Speaker 1: they've got those head hedgerows that sort of separate fields

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Speaker 1: and separate roads from fields and stuff like that. And

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Speaker 1: of course with hedges, you know you wanted to grow up,

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Speaker 1: not out, but they being hedges, they want to grow out.

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Speaker 1: So you gotta cooperate. Now you gotta whack him back,

300
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Speaker 1: and so that's what he was doing. He left his

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Speaker 1: house around nine am and by the his house is

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Speaker 1: still there. You can see pictures of it on the

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Speaker 1: Worldwide Web. It is still there. Yeah. I must not

304
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Speaker 1: have even just made the connection when I saw the picture. Okay, yeah,

305
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 1: and it's still there. Uh. He had it was like

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Speaker 1: a like three interconnected cottages that eventually somebody bought combined

307
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,360
Speaker 1: him into one nice big house. But apparently so the

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00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,720
Speaker 1: structure is still yeah. Yeah, it's cool. Well, nobody got

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Speaker 1: murdered there. They got murdered somewhere else, thank god. So

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Speaker 1: he headed up on the furs. There's this thing called

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Speaker 1: Mayon Hill. Although I might be mispronouncing that. It might

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Speaker 1: be me On, but I think it's may On. And

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Speaker 1: so he started clearing hedge and this is at nine

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Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. On Apparently he was seeing walk

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Speaker 1: in that direction about not between nine and nine um.

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Speaker 1: And he was carrying his walking stick because he had

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Speaker 1: arthritis too. He was he was like seventy five. He

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Speaker 1: was born in eighteen seventy, so he was seventy four

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Speaker 1: and still working in the fields. This is nineteen huh.

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Speaker 1: So his birthday was in May eighteen seventies, so this

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Speaker 1: is February. So yeah, he had turned Yeah, see it

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Speaker 1: his walking stick. I got his walking stick as he

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Speaker 1: had already and uh, he also had him with him

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Speaker 1: that he just abbreviated our you do. Don't don't be

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Speaker 1: abbreviating like that. Yeah, let's see what else. The ide

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Speaker 1: had a pitchfork and he had a slash hook, which

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Speaker 1: were his tools with the trade. Uh. And I know

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Speaker 1: you all know what a pitchfork is. If you don't

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Speaker 1: hold your hand up in front of you with your

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Speaker 1: fingers extended. Now rotate your hand now, is it a

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Speaker 1: two or three pronged pitchfork? I never question. I mean

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Speaker 1: most of the ones you see are like, are like

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Speaker 1: four prong ones. I saw one on the BBC that

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Speaker 1: was actually a two pronged pitchforks. That's why I'm asking.

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Speaker 1: I think the older ones were too prong I believe

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Speaker 1: it was a two prong Yeah. Again, hard to say,

337
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Speaker 1: but I think it was. As far as the slash

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Speaker 1: hook goes, I've seen pictures of the slash hooks and

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00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,560
Speaker 1: they're all they come in all different style. A lot

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Speaker 1: of them are sort of shaped like a sickle, like

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Speaker 1: curvesickle with a long hand knife on one edge and

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Speaker 1: straight edge on the other. Yeah, kind of like that,

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Speaker 1: kind of shaped almost like a cowboy boot. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: kind of yeah, kind of kind of a nice little

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Speaker 1: thing for clear and broun. Okay, you look at me. Funny.

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Speaker 1: It was just not a way I would have thought

347
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Speaker 1: to describe it. But it's pretty good. Or it looks

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Speaker 1: like Italy for Italy, if you grabbed Europe and turn

349
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Speaker 1: it upside Yeah, alright, so yeah I say that, you

350
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Speaker 1: know I did that. Italy totally looks like a slash hook. Yeah,

351
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 1: and they're totally right. Yeah, yeah, And uh, of course

352
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Speaker 1: the slash work, besides being a great brush clearing tool,

353
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Speaker 1: would be a great murder weapon. Apparently, yeah, it really

354
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Speaker 1: would be. And actually, when you think about the walking

355
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Speaker 1: stick that he was carrying, and also the pitchwork wouldn't

356
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Speaker 1: be such bad murder weapons either. And as it happens,

357
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Speaker 1: Charlie carried all the murder weapons to the place where

358
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Speaker 1: he was killed, because appears that all of them were

359
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,720
Speaker 1: used on him. And that's that's what I did. I

360
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,879
Speaker 1: say it was a murder. Yeah. The last reports of

361
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Speaker 1: him alive were between about twelve new and twelve thirty

362
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 1: and those were by Alfred J. Potter, who managed the

363
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Speaker 1: first again that was the farm that Charlie was working

364
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,320
Speaker 1: on that window isn't firm. Yeah, now he changed his

365
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,640
Speaker 1: time quite a few times. Yeah, I was gonna say

366
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Speaker 1: I saw it. It felt like it could have gone

367
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Speaker 1: all the way out to one o'clock, possibly depending on

368
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Speaker 1: his versions. Yeah, and so it's a little and so yeah,

369
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Speaker 1: a little bit. Well, I think one of the ways

370
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,879
Speaker 1: they sort of fixed at one pm, because it was

371
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Speaker 1: believed was concluded later on that the murder probably happened

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Speaker 1: between one and two pm on that day. And he

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Speaker 1: said that he saw that at about twelve thirty and

374
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Speaker 1: it appeared that he had X number of yards of

375
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Speaker 1: hedge left to clear at that time. Of course he

376
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Speaker 1: saw from like five hundred yards away. That's a long ways,

377
00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,840
Speaker 1: but when he actually found his body, about four more

378
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,639
Speaker 1: yards of hedge have been clear heard, and it was

379
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,119
Speaker 1: at Potter's estimate that it would take about half an

380
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 1: hour to do that work. So one o'clock that kind

381
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Speaker 1: of works. And you said he had been working for

382
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 1: Potter for how long? About nine months, although that's kind

383
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,640
Speaker 1: of actually that at this time, but he actually had

384
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Speaker 1: been working for him on and off for about five years,

385
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 1: because yeah, Potter had been managing this farm for about

386
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Speaker 1: five years, and so he had lots of experience with

387
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 1: Charlie and some of the other local labors. Apparently he

388
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 1: managed it for a company that was owned by his dad,

389
00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 1: So it's a family business. Family business. Yeah. So okay,

390
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 1: So sometime around one to the population of Lower Quentin

391
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Speaker 1: dropped from four ninety three to four ninety two. So

392
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 1: that's not a surprise. I guess we knew it was coming.

393
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we kind of did. Yeah, it's kind of

394
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 1: to be expected when you hear the words, you know, witchcraft, murder. Yeah.

395
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 1: And so Edith remember eating his niece. She she was

396
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Speaker 1: working in a factory and she got home about six

397
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,719
Speaker 1: and I guess what, Charlie wasn't there. And because Charlie

398
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,920
Speaker 1: was pretty regular in his habits, she became a little

399
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,919
Speaker 1: bit worried about him. So she went and found her neighbor,

400
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 1: guy named Harry Beasley, and they went looking for Alfred

401
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,679
Speaker 1: Potter and started looking on the farm for the body.

402
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,880
Speaker 1: And since Potter was the last guy to see him,

403
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,960
Speaker 1: and since Potter had a pretty good idea of where

404
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 1: we was supposed to be working, they had it out

405
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 1: there that direction. And guess what they found him. I'm sorry,

406
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,679
Speaker 1: I'm giggling. To myself over here, because you primed me

407
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 1: to be thinking about Harry Potter. Now you've got part

408
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 1: Potter and you've got Harry Beasley, which is just kind

409
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,159
Speaker 1: of like, that's a good point, Ron Weasley and Harry

410
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 1: Potter and that and this is where J. K. Rowling

411
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,880
Speaker 1: got the idea she changed the name. Oh and and

412
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,199
Speaker 1: and my my previous reference when he went off to

413
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,440
Speaker 1: ward Hog School does adolescence? Okay, wait, it was Harry.

414
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 1: It was Harry J. Potter, So this is even closer,

415
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,199
Speaker 1: was it? Okay? So yeah, maybe this is where she

416
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 1: got all the names for her little for her books

417
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 1: for my story. So they it was of course, it

418
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 1: was six pm, after six pm, so it was dark.

419
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: They took some torches, I presumably by torches. They're talking

420
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Speaker 1: flashlights and not seeing Frankenstein movies with the angry villagers

421
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,159
Speaker 1: and the pitchforks. Yeah, and they found his body and uh,

422
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,239
Speaker 1: he was all he was all beaten, and he had

423
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 1: been pinned to the ground with his pitchfork. The pitchfork

424
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 1: was driven either around his neck or through his neck,

425
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 1: pending on the version of the sea here, and so

426
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 1: his body and then the pitchfork itself was had been

427
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,679
Speaker 1: sort of twisted forward and wedged into the heads that

428
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: he was working on, which is weird. Yeah. And then

429
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 1: well they might have whoever did it, might have wanted

430
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,919
Speaker 1: to expose his throat because his throat had been the

431
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 1: Remember I talked about the slash. They found the slash

432
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: work buried in his throat, and they also found his

433
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 1: walking stick nearby, with you know, blood and hair on

434
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: it because he'd been beaten with a walking stick. Also,

435
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: so yeah, whoever did this really well I don't know

436
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 1: what to say about they had a good time or

437
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: else they were really angry about really worked something out

438
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 1: on it. Yeah, it was the conclusion actually the Scotland

439
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: yard chap said there wasn't there was a maniac on

440
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: the lose of course, is reasonable enough. I guess it

441
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: just kind of a maniac kind of murder. Yeah. Yeah.

442
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 1: Also also most creepy an ominous of all is across

443
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 1: had been carved into Charlie's chest. Uh. Yeah, and he

444
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: lost a lot of blood, most of his blood which

445
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: had drained into the soil. Yeah, there was a lot

446
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: of blood there. So there was an investigation by Stratford Police.

447
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: Of course, they set the time of death. The forensic

448
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 1: examiner did between one and two pm, and they noted

449
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: that he was missing his pocket watch. He had a

450
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 1: fairly cheap tin pocket watch that he carried with him

451
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: all the time. It was gone, which made robbery is

452
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: a murder, but I don't know. And Stratford, of course,

453
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, they decided to call it in

454
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: Scotland Yard and of course Chief Inspector Fabian arrives um

455
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: that was two days after the murder. He arrived in

456
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: the sixteenth. Yeah, of course he was all after it.

457
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: They they besides interviewing everybody in town, and they did

458
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: interview the entire village. They also called in an r

459
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: a F plane that had an aerial camera on it

460
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: and they photographed the entire village and including the murder scene,

461
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: just looking for any possible clues. So what I love

462
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: about the whole rif angle is there's some things that

463
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: you see that say and the pool of blood around

464
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: him was so big it could be seen from several

465
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: hundred feet above in the air. That's a little hard

466
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: to believe. I've heard that one too. Yeah, I don't

467
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 1: think that. I think the blood would soak into the

468
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: ground before it was spread big enough to be seen

469
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: hundreds of feet in the air. I would agree with this,

470
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: unless you know extreme drought. Yeah that's a good point. Yeah,

471
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,400
Speaker 1: but yeah, it was mid February in that and it's

472
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: you know, England, so yeah, really doubting that that kind

473
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: of Yeah, what else they Hey, they called data ground

474
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: Sear's local police and I think they were assisted by

475
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: military in this, and the military came in with metal

476
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: detectors and everything because they were looking for the watch,

477
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: because that was their only lead. They didn't have much

478
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: to go on here, and yeah, the watch, well maybe

479
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: they were hoping possibly to get a fingerprint or two

480
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: off of it, but they never found it. There are

481
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: reports the watch was found like like fifteen years later

482
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: when they were tearing down the outhouses at the cottage

483
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: where they were Dye and Charlie were living. Supposedly they

484
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: found the watch in the outhouse, although I've heard that

485
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: that's also not entirely confirmed. Also, it feels like it'd

486
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: be hard to confirm it was his, who was a

487
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: fairly generic just tin watch. Yeah. He doesn't strike me

488
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: as the kind of guy who would have been monogrammed

489
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: or anything like that. So it actually had been monogramed,

490
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: but he had bought it used, so it had somebody

491
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 1: else's name in it, and so it could have been

492
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: positively identified in his because it did have another guy's

493
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: name in it. But again, Charlie was not a rich guy,

494
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: not at all. The closest he came to wealth, which

495
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 1: was not much, is when his wife died seven she

496
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: left him about three hundred pounds about seven and what

497
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: he put in the bank, and by the time of

498
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: his death, I think it was down to about eleven pounds.

499
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: So it wasn't as if he was living lavish. Oh no,

500
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: not at all, because it was he had lived on

501
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 1: that almost three hundred pounds for nearly twenty years. Well, yeah,

502
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure he just pulled it out for you know,

503
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: extra expenses, emergency yeah something, Yeah, yeah, something like that.

504
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: That's what the savings accounts for totally. And but but

505
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 1: for the most part, I don't think he needed it.

506
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: He worked all the time and so he usually can

507
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: support himself. Okay, now, quickly, let's a quick look at

508
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 1: the autopsy. When they when they examined him, they found

509
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: that his tricky had been cut. That's you know, yeah,

510
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: not surprising. Uh. He also had broken ribs and bruises

511
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 1: on his chest, presumably from the walking stick, because uh,

512
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 1: he had sustained blows to the head which were matched

513
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: to the walking stick, So the broken ribs and stuff

514
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: could have also come from the walking stick or one

515
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: of the other weapons, or somebody just punching. He's a

516
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: seven five year old man. He's worked his whole life.

517
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, not lived an easy life. Yeah, yeah,

518
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: he he was. He was probably tougher than he looked. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

519
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: He also had some defensive wounds. He had to cut

520
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: in his left hand, He had extensive bruising on his

521
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: right arm in hand, and so he was obviously trying

522
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 1: to fend off whoever was attacking him. He didn't quite succeed.

523
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: And also his shirt had been opened and his fly

524
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 1: had been unbuttoned. It makes no sense, not really. Oh no,

525
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: he he was wearing pants that had a button fly. Yeah.

526
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: I've had pants that have come undone when I'm working.

527
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 1: You know, if you're twisting and turning, I could maybe

528
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: see that, Sure, I can maybe see if he was hot,

529
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: he sweat, Yeah, I mean he could have been button

530
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: a shirt if it might be. He didn't even button

531
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: it to begin with when he left that day, Well,

532
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: I thought it was a cool day February. But he

533
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: was also wearing a jacket when he was found. And

534
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's hard to cut across in someone's chest

535
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: when their shirt is buttoned. I'll just say, true. It's

536
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: a good point. But and to the unbuttoned pants, I

537
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: guess is it not possible that his attacker came upon

538
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: him when he was your name? Yeah? Well, I was

539
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: about to suggest that. I know that when I choose

540
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: to jump somebody and murder them, I usually wait to

541
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: other at their most vulnerable. Yeah, and that is one

542
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: of the most That's a great time to do it. Yeah.

543
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I know I'm not exactly you know,

544
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: your great courageous warrior here, I admit it. I'll go

545
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: for every advantage I can. Yeah. Yeah. The Loocal police

546
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: also include Fabian of the yard and on some other

547
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: interesting local lore that they seemed to feel might have

548
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: some bearing on this case. Uh and certainly, um, it

549
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: did have. If it had no bearing on the case,

550
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: it certainly influenced the public perception of it. Oh, I

551
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: would say that's the only thing that it really did. Yeah,

552
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: as far as where that this provided him with any

553
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: sort of a road map to solve the killing. Well

554
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: not really. But the first thing is he included a

555
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 1: man on that's Fabian clud amen On murdered that had

556
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: happened in eighteen seventy five, which is like what eighty

557
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: years before? Yes, always before seventy years, eighty years. I

558
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: don't know of a woman named and Tennant, although I've

559
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: seen in one account I saw her name as a Turner,

560
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: but everywhere else is and Tenants, So I think Tenant

561
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: is the correct the correct name. Yeah, she had been

562
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: murdered under identical circumstances in the same space nearby, but

563
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: not not in the same field or anything like that.

564
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: But she had been saving Yeah, pinned, pinned to the

565
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: ground with a pitchfork, and that her throat was slashed

566
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: with the sign of the cross. Um. Then she was

567
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: bill hook, Yeah, with a bill hook. She killed by

568
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: a guy named James, named James Haywood. Uh, And he

569
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: said that he did it because she was a witch

570
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,719
Speaker 1: and she was trying to save the village from this.

571
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: He was trying to save the village. You are, yeah,

572
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: that's yeah, sorry, but uh, he was found guilty. That's

573
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: James Haywood, and he was hanged because there were people around, well,

574
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: there were neighbors there, yeah, yeah, yeah, and he was

575
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: he was intoxicated, if I remember, he had asked some

576
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: alcoholic cider, had been drinking, and he apparently was also

577
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: considered slow witted. That was what the locals considered. Yeah,

578
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: I considered kind of yeah, not not really. Yeah. So

579
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: that's the one story. And then there was another story,

580
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: and this is taken out a book by a guy

581
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: named the Reverend James Harvey Bloom. In this book he

582
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: giving account of a young Charles Walton in five and

583
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: he tells in the tale of this, uh, he was

584
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: he was a young farm laborer and he was heading

585
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: home one night and he meant a large sort of

586
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: spectral black dog on the road heading home. And then

587
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: the next night he met the dog again. And then

588
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: on the third night, uh, he saw the dog yet again,

589
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: but this time there was a headless woman walking with

590
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: the dog. I know, so yeah, I know. So Charles

591
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: didn't think anything about at the time. I'm just kidding.

592
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure he did. But then later that night, when

593
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: he got home, he found out that his sister had

594
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: died and also I'll, by the way, in another version

595
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: of this that I've seen out there, he actually saw

596
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: the dog nine nights in a row. Okay, I was

597
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: just I thought it was seven. But yeah, there there's

598
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: varying links there are. Yeah, Apparently it turns out the

599
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: black dog and local lore is a harbinger of death.

600
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,719
Speaker 1: You see one of these scary, creepy black dogs and

601
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: that's not good news. Yeah, in the UK, the black

602
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: dog has been around for hundreds of years. Although it's

603
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: funny is that most of the time it's an evil spirit.

604
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: There are a few that are benevolent, if not helpful,

605
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: which those are the ones that I want to see.

606
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but there's it's always it's always a black dog. Yeah,

607
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: kind of. It's kind of tough on it. And say,

608
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: if you're a black lab, you know you just just friendly, friendly,

609
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: happy black lab and everybody thinks you're evil. You to

610
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: run up to somebody to say, HOI how you doing,

611
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: How you doing? How you doing it? I'm a good boy?

612
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: Are we playing cheese? Okay? Okay, Yeah, black labs are

613
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: the best dogs. They are cool dogs. Yeah. There is

614
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: even here in America. There's a little bit of a

615
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: prejudice against black dogs. Yeah, unfortunately, really not as much

616
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: as black cats. But now that's true, but it definitely

617
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: is one. All right, well, we're gonna talk about a

618
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: few theories here. But first, hear a black dog scratching

619
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: on my door, So let me take a quick break

620
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: here and go answer that. It's pitch black. Open your eyes.

621
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: This is a good start to your day. You're in bed,

622
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: in your bedroom. It's a mess. It's a small bedroom

623
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: with a faded rug and dirty walls. There's your robe,

624
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: a screwdriver, and a toothbrush outside of your bed. You

625
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: have to decide get out of bed. If you do,

626
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: your friend Ford might take you on an unbelievable adventure.

627
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: If you don't, well, you'll spend the whole day in bed.

628
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: If the thought of getting out of bed to travel

629
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: the universe seems unbearable, you might want to talk to

630
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: somebody about that. Lucky for you, you don't even have

631
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: to get out of bed with talk Space. Talk Space

632
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: is the online therapy company, and they make it easy

633
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: to connect with a licensed therapist handpicked just for you

634
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: for as little as thirty two dollars a week. Using

635
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: talk Space, you can text, audio, and video message with

636
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: your therapist. As much as you want to sign up

637
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: or learn more, go to talk space dot com slash

638
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: sideways and as a special offer for our listeners, you

639
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: can use coupon code sideways to get thirty dollars off

640
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: your first month and show your support of the show

641
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: that sideways and talk space dot com slash sideways and

642
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 1: don't forget your towel. Then we're back. It was okay,

643
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: not a black dog. It was just my cat. All right.

644
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: Let's talk about some theories, alright. Our first theory, uh,

645
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: suicide and we're talking about who, who and why he

646
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 1: was killed, et cetera. In case you've forgotten our story

647
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: the murder of Charlie Walton, the witchcraft and murder, so suicide.

648
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: Either one of you guys want to go to bed

649
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: for the suicide theory? Is this your the beginning of it?

650
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: Suicide scene is a little unlikely. He would have had

651
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,439
Speaker 1: to have been a very very determined suicidal guy. I think, yeah,

652
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: we've we've we've talked about the silliness of this kind

653
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: of stuff before for this kind of story. Now now

654
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: we'll just rule that one right out. I think, yeah, So, okay,

655
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: it wasn't suicide obviously, probably not natural causes, probably not accidental. Um,

656
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: so that leaves kind of a murder um, yeah, kind

657
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: of does. Let's start with some of the more sensational

658
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: and interesting ones. First. There's one theory that was out

659
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: there floating around quite a bit, which is that Charlie

660
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: was killed by a covenant, which is as a sacrifice, uh,

661
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: to replenish the soil. And so apparently the date actually

662
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: has some significance. Apparently that date under the old calendar,

663
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: and I don't know which calendar that is, but that's

664
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: what they say. The old calendar that was considered candle

665
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: Moss Day, and that was to day when you had

666
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: a chance to influence the next growing season, and the

667
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: best way to do that was to kill somebody. Let's

668
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: sacrifice and yeah, let their blood drain into the soil.

669
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 1: I'll just say, I know you have some other stuff here,

670
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: but in my understanding of which is they are not

671
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: typically super akin to like Christian symbology symbolism which Ash

672
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: Wednesday would be something of or like you know, the

673
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: cross carved in the chest like usually be like a

674
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 1: pentagram or something more wicked. Yeah, yeah, I mean you

675
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: would think more than just a cross, which typically I

676
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: think is a hindrance to witches, isn't it? Or are

677
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: there Christian witches? Is that you know? I mean, well,

678
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: you know, it might it might not have been a

679
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: symbol symbol of their own faith. It might have been

680
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: it might have been mocking his faith. I mean, when

681
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: you think about it, I imagine this in a sense.

682
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, well, you know, hey, we just

683
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: we just did whatever with the hell we please with you,

684
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: and your God didn't do anything for you, did he

685
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 1: ha ha. So that's one way of looking at the cross.

686
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: That's true though in my guess for me, I think

687
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: they're trying to make a sacrifice to their gods or

688
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: their beliefs. So you would want to do as much

689
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: to honor your beliefs as possible. Not dead degrade that

690
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: I'm right that Yeah, he would say, oh, idy, God

691
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: of the soil, here his this sacrifice to you in

692
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: which we carved your symbol. And for all I know,

693
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: the symbol is across. I don't know. I'm not a

694
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: right here, yeah yeah, yeah, No, I I am assuming

695
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: that the cross is not the witch symbol, but I

696
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: could be wrong. I've never heard you'd be wrong before.

697
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: That's true. Never before in my entire life ever been wrong.

698
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: So I was once I thought I had made a

699
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: mistake or not. I hadn't. This would be a first. Yeah,

700
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: it's true. Yeah, what were we? What is dud so

701
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 1: so kind of a Druid ceremony? Because I see we're

702
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: talking about witches and you gotta see druids and I

703
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: didn't know that those were so much interchangeable. Yeah, I

704
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: I don't know either. I actually am not an expert

705
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: on the druids, and nobody really is not really that

706
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: remains Druids practices, So yeah, you know, not much is known.

707
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: Apparently there was what was thought by many to be

708
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: a Druid ruined, which is a stone circle which was

709
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: at least in nineteen called the Whispering Knights, and that

710
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: was supposed to be close to the murder scene. Is

711
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 1: that what it was? Yeah? Those that had some significance

712
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 1: in people's minds that it was so close. And also

713
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: apparently Warwick Share itself was and perhaps still even is

714
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: a hotbed of witchery. And then of course the Druids

715
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 1: apparently considered ash Wednesday to be a significant day that

716
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: the day to make the sacrifice to the earth, although

717
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: they didn't to them it wasn't Ash Wednesday obviously because

718
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 1: they predated all the Ash Wednesday stuff. Right. But the problem,

719
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: of course is that this what was the it's the

720
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: Whispering Knights. Yeah, isn't actually close. It's like twelve miles away,

721
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 1: you know, I mean yeah, so, I mean that's close.

722
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: I guess when you think about it the overall scheme

723
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: of things, I mean, look how far the Earth is

724
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: from the sun. Yeah, but yeah, now twelve miles is

725
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: kind of a long way. So so we're going to

726
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: talk about the bunk nous of the cross. Yeah, the

727
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: cross actually is not mentioned in the autopsy at all.

728
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 1: Apparently apparently the cross carved in the chest was sort

729
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: of made up by somebody. Yeah, I mean, big surprise.

730
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: I mean, how often does that happen? This just goes

731
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: to show you that, you know, everybody, everybody thinks that

732
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: all this crap about fake news all began with the Internet.

733
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 1: Tell you this, guys, it happened. Oh, it's been happening forever,

734
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 1: I think. Okay, is that all we've got the whole? Yeah,

735
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: and so that you know that. Yeah, so the con

736
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: thing is like, well, okay, there was he was nowhere

737
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: anywhere near some sort of juuid circle. There was no

738
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: cross um. And according to the experts, wicked experts that

739
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: I've heard quoted about this, this particular thing is he

740
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: was actually too old for the sacrifice. Apparently, you want

741
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: young blood, Yeah, I mean you would, right, Yeah, you

742
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: want young blood. Yeah, isn't it always it's the young

743
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: virgin that's the perfect vessel for they have the young

744
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: energy that can replenish the energy of the soil. Right.

745
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: You don't want old used up energy, because then it's

746
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: like what up? You know, it's it's what's really interesting

747
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: about that is that just very very recently, medical researches

748
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 1: has found out that there really is such a thing

749
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: as young and old blood. Yeah. They have found out

750
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: if you if you take a transfusion from a twenty

751
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: year old guy and give it to an eight year

752
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: old guy, and the eight year old will have a

753
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: significant health increase. Which also that sort of argues against

754
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: like old people donating blood, because if you've got a

755
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: guy who's like really having a hard time trying to

756
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: recover from something that you put an eight year old

757
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: blood into him, it's like, that's maybe not such a

758
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: great ideas than nothing, but it's not. It's not ideal.

759
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: But anyway, so young blood, So Charlie was not exactly

760
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: possessing any young blood. So that's why, besides the fact

761
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: that there's really nothing to support this anyway, it just

762
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: didn't make sense from a whole wickened point of view. Yeah,

763
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: make him a sacrifice. But there was another possibility, which

764
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: is that he was murdered actually by the people of

765
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:04,720
Speaker 1: Lower Quintin because Charlie himself was a witch or a warlock. Yeah,

766
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: and there was some stuff. Remember I said he had

767
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 1: this strange ability to communicate with animals. It seemed like, uh,

768
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: he was a great horse trainer. Apparently he also had

769
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: the birds flocking around him and and could some do

770
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 1: wild dogs and and uh he also apparently had some

771
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: natterjack toads city captain. Apparently these are strange little toads

772
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 1: that don't really hip hop like other toads do. They

773
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: kind of run instead. That's have you looked at these toads.

774
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: They're they're wide there, their white body. It's very hard

775
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: for him to to get a good jump going. What

776
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 1: are they called natterjack toes a t t e R.

777
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: See how a toad usually their their body is the

778
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: shape of it from their their chest is kind of conical.

779
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: These things are more like a frisbee with eyes and legs,

780
00:41:54,200 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 1: and they're so cute, just a little dirty things. Well

781
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 1: that's why they don't jump very much, because they can't.

782
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: So round and weird. Yeah, no, so he kept some

783
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: of those. He had some of those or lived near

784
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: his house. One of the two repeatedly, he actually kept them.

785
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 1: And apparently he was you could use an ader jack

786
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: to to put a hex in your neighbor's crops. And

787
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 1: what he did was he tied a toy, a small

788
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: toy plow to one of the frogs or one of

789
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: the toads, I guess, and sent it scurring off across

790
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: people's fields, which caused their crops to fail. Uh. And

791
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, there was a big failure

792
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: in of the crop. And uh it's it's rumored that

793
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: the local towns folk blamed Charlie for this. Do you

794
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: know what I would do if I was a guy

795
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:55,479
Speaker 1: who was slowly working through my savings account and having

796
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: a hard time continuing to to do my farm work,

797
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: but needed to steal eat, and there happened to be

798
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: an abundance of toads around. I would gather them up

799
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: and keep them to eat them. Yeah. That's the thing

800
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: is Charlie kind of had an interest in not seeing

801
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: people's crops fail. I was gonna say he was a

802
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: farm hand. His job depended on the crops being successful.

803
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 1: And if he had, but if he in some way

804
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 1: encourage these little telligent to be around, I'm like, that's

805
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: a food source man. And probably and let's not forget

806
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,439
Speaker 1: this was this was still the tag out of World

807
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:31,720
Speaker 1: War two, so food was probably a little scarce the fraction,

808
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: and so yeah, those things probably made good food sources,

809
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 1: along with local rabbits and stuff like that. You know,

810
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 1: some of the stories too about Charlie, like he could

811
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: have birds eating out of his hand and stuff like that.

812
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 1: There they seemed to be a bit apocryphal. Yeah, and

813
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: doing wild dogs and stuff. You know, there's there's people

814
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: who are the dog whisperer, people who can talk in

815
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,919
Speaker 1: a soothing tone and they're able to calm animals down.

816
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: And there are people who can do that. The whole

817
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: bird eating out of the hand thing, if he is

818
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 1: going to the same place feeding the birds every day.

819
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: It's like the old lady at the park with the pigeons,

820
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: for sure. Sure, so it's entirely possible that that's what

821
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 1: he was doing. Yeah, and it's these oh well I

822
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: used to see me always would feed the birds. They

823
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: would eat out of his hand, and then of course

824
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: our lovely Newsy grabs that and throws it in the

825
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 1: weekly rag, where you got a little little indication there witchcraft. Yeah,

826
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: and Inspector Fabian actually didn't talk about any of this

827
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: witchcraft stuff in his his police reports and uh, but

828
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: later on when he started writing books, he and he

829
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: started mentioning this stuff a little bit more. But obviously

830
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 1: he had sort of an interest in selling books, so he,

831
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, sexing it up with a little bit a

832
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: little talk of witchcraft probably was in his own interests.

833
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: It seems so late to be doing the witchcraft. Seriously,

834
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: you're going to be like, she's a witch? Were he

835
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: added that like five years later? I know, But that's

836
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: just seems so like the nineteen fifties. Seriously, this is

837
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: the thing you're still going to bring out and say, well,

838
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: he was a witch, so you know, we had to

839
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: kill him. That's been thing to me. I was gonna say,

840
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: I still know people who burns what is it sage

841
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: when you put it in the bundle and you and

842
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 1: you know it's this. Okay, let's be fair. That's very

843
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: different from killing someone because you think they're a witch.

844
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 1: But there are people who still believe in and I

845
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: apologize if anybody doesn't like me saying this, but there's

846
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,959
Speaker 1: still people who believe in googleies and ghosties and all

847
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 1: these other things that we can't see being real and

848
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: trying to defend themselves and weird stuff like that happens.

849
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: It's is not as cosmopolitan as I'm not saying. I'm

850
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: just saying there's a huge difference between believing there's a

851
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 1: ghost in your house and literally bludgeoning an old and

852
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: to death and cutting across in his chest because you

853
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 1: think he might be away bris had five hundred years

854
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 1: of hunting. I just think it's just a cultural norse.

855
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 1: I still just think it's crazy, and I still think

856
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 1: it's crazy that that somebody would be like, oh, this

857
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: is a good theory for why. That's the thing about it.

858
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: There might there might have been a few Liny tuners

859
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: in Low Quentin who actually believed that sort of stuff,

860
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: But the entire village man probably a bit of a stretch.

861
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: You know. The other thing that I want that this

862
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: particular theory makes me think of is you had mentioned

863
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: at one time the the whole nobody in the village

864
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: would talk to and say what they knew it was

865
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, and it was because of this they

866
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: killed the warlock. Thing is what You've seen a lot

867
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 1: of places. But I found the best description somewhere, which

868
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: was they told they had they would share nothing with

869
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: him because they knew nothing and had nothing to share.

870
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: None of them were there. That was That was the

871
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: thing people who worked Yeah, yeah, probably from the Scotland

872
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: Yards point of view. Is like saying that nobody would

873
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: talk to us. Well people, they interviewed everybody, and everybody

874
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: said I don't have a clue, yeah, and so it

875
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: probably told them the little bit they knew, which was

876
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 1: unhelpful for me. It's similar to if somebody came to

877
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 1: one of us and said, hey, I want to talk

878
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: to you about the Kiren Horman disappearance, and we'd be like,

879
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, and they'd be like the thinking Sideways

880
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: crew stone walling on the same thing to me, where

881
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: like we live in the same city. But like, no,

882
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 1: you don't know anything, So what do you have to say. Yeah,

883
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you. I'm ashamed to admit this, but

884
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: I don't really know anything about Kiren. I mean, other

885
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: than a few basic facts, I don't really really which

886
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: is okay because you're not involved in the case. No,

887
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 1: not at all, not at all, we ever choose to

888
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: cover that. I might have a good source or too,

889
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 1: but yeah, we'll put that anyway. Charlie's niece Eaty back

890
00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: to our story. I saw a BBC interview with here

891
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: was a brief little interview and I know Steve, you've

892
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 1: seen it. Oh yeah, that's great. It's uh, it's just

893
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 1: this guy, this BBC journalist has been very melidramatic, melodramatic

894
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: about the whole thing. And he's actually out at the

895
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: base of Mayon Hill in his trench coat and everything,

896
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: with his long hair flowing in the breeze and stuff,

897
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: and he's going like, it's more like puffing around in

898
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,919
Speaker 1: the breeze. It's not flowing at all. Yeah, and then

899
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: even he talks to Dye, it says, you know, what

900
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 1: about all this and what about all this witchcraft, and

901
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: she's like, I don't know what, don't don't do that.

902
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: There's it's like I've never heard of it. Actually, the

903
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,879
Speaker 1: pipe has just made it all up like that every

904
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: time he does an accident it sounds slightly German. Well

905
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: he watched a lot of Yeah, well and then and

906
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: what Then the interview goes, I mean Warwick warwicksher is

907
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: reputed to be a great center of witchcraft and sorcery.

908
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: Have you ever met a witch? And she says no,

909
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: I never had to. Actually, he was like, She's like,

910
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: this is all rubbish. Joe I had the best conversation

911
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: on the phone the other day about the fact that

912
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: this is obviously one of those things that the guys

913
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 1: from Monty Python learned to parody because because it is

914
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: so absurdly funny when you watch it, it's unintentionally kind

915
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: of funny. And yeah, obviously these guys were kind of

916
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: an inspiration for the Python guys. I think, I'm sure,

917
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 1: I really do, but yeah, yeah, but Edie was great.

918
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: She's just like, oh, I don't know what the heck

919
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: about that? Actually, alright, support theories, Uh, there was, of

920
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: course the Italians they were Yeah, I know they did

921
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 1: catch one Italian and with some blood in his hands,

922
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,439
Speaker 1: but it turned out that he had been he had

923
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: just gotten out, so we can go hunt rabbits to

924
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 1: supplement his diet. Again kind of makes sense because again

925
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: wartime rationing. It can't really blame him for that. At

926
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: the token Italian on this podcast, I think Italians didn't

927
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: do it, do you think so? Okay, I'll buy that. No,

928
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 1: there was no reason for him. Again, these guys had

929
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: a sweet deal going on, you know. I mean, there

930
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: was no reason to go out in murders. And the

931
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: weather in England is not nearly as nice as isn't Italy.

932
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: But some parts of Italy are kind of girls. I

933
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: gotta say one one nice thing I like about written

934
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: over Italy is say, have number one, no volcanoes, number two,

935
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: no massive earthquakes. Okay, But other than that, Italy's got

936
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 1: a lot going for it. Back to our theories. Oh yeah,

937
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: this is another theory that was considered but kind of

938
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,479
Speaker 1: dismissed by the police. But apparently Charlie had a friend

939
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: named George Higgins. They've known each other for many years.

940
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: They hadn't talked for a few months, but you know

941
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: they were well acquainted, and Higgins was actually working quite

942
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 1: close by, like in a barn, like maybe three yards

943
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: for the murder scene. And obviously in a murder you

944
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: obviously you really want to look at family and acquaintances first, Right,

945
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 1: So Higgins was given them, given a little bit of scrutiny.

946
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: But and maybe he did it, I don't know, But nobody,

947
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: the police really couldn't find any motive. I mean, they

948
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: seemed to be friends. How far away was he supposedly

949
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 1: supposedly like three yards away or right around right there,

950
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 1: he was close by, he would have maybe heard something, Uh,

951
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: just still a ways. I mean it's just three football fields. Yeah,

952
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 1: that's not helpful to me. You should know that by now. Yeah, No,

953
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 1: I know it's it's not close three city blocks. Yeah,

954
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: but that's not if somebody's getting murdered three city blocks

955
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: away in the outdoors, you think you might hear something, well,

956
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 1: you know, old men. But there's a fight, right, I

957
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: mean there were defensive wounds, so there was a fight.

958
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: There wasn't No, there wasn't a fight. There must have

959
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: been some noise. I'm just trying to play double's advocate, right,

960
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: Appreciate that but you know, you don't know. I mean,

961
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 1: besides the distance, you don't know what the terrain was like.

962
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: They might have been over a hill, there might have

963
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 1: been all kinds of hedges in between. He could have

964
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,439
Speaker 1: been listening to our podcast. He could have then listening

965
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 1: to a podcast, because he was a traveler exactly. Uh.

966
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: And of course you're on a farm, so if you

967
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: hear a scream, you might just think it's an animal. Yeah,

968
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 1: so he probably thought nothing of it, or you know,

969
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: you're a few screams and just thought, well, I don't

970
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 1: want to get involved. So yeah, I did, not knowing

971
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: it was his point. Yeah, you make great point. Farm

972
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: animals are amazingly noisy. Yeah. Yeah, they make a lot

973
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: of noise. Oh yeah, and so somebody murdered getting murdered,

974
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 1: I don't know that not necessarily going to stand out. Okay,

975
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 1: so so much for George Higgins, I don't The police

976
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: dismissed him pretty quickly, just like the Italians. And uh,

977
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: of course there was his niece, Eaty. I mean she

978
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: could have she would have stood to inherit maybe eleven pounds,

979
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 1: so she had a big motive. Yeah apparently, Yeah, I know,

980
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,280
Speaker 1: Charlie apparently did have the habit of leaving the toilet

981
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: seat up. Stop it. Yeah, I know, I know. Well,

982
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 1: to be fair, I mean, eleven pounds in ninety five

983
00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: was four hundred and forty pounds like today, which is like,

984
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 1: you know, four and fifty dollars, which people who been

985
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: killed for less sadly, and I think the exchange right

986
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: actually was more favorable back in the day, so dollar wise,

987
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 1: it might have been worth more to the US dollar. Yeah,

988
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 1: she had then left the country, which she did not do. Yeah. Well,

989
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: the other reasons not to think about not to think

990
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: Dye did it again? You know, you want to look

991
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: at the family and acquaintances and friends, so few Marrits

992
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: will look. But I think the murder was probably a man,

993
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 1: especially the pitchfork. I mean, the pitchfork was driven into

994
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: the ground so hard apparently it took two policemen to

995
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 1: pull it out of the ground. So I was going

996
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: to ask you about that because when when I was

997
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: doing the reading and I saw this stuff about the pitchfork,

998
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: what I couldn't understand was was it that the sheer

999
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 1: act of pulling the pitchfork out of the ground. You

1000
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 1: know that the times out of the ground took two men,

1001
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: or had it been jammed so far in the ground

1002
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: and then at such a strange change, funky angle to

1003
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 1: wedge it under the hedge that it took two people.

1004
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 1: Do you see where guys to get it at tangle

1005
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,839
Speaker 1: from the hedge or something that's hard to see, especially well,

1006
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: if the ground was soft and wet, which I see

1007
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: it was, it's hard to imagine it being I was

1008
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 1: going to say, if the ground was wet and soft

1009
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 1: when it happened, I mean, there's a couple hours elapsed,

1010
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 1: and it's February, so like in Portland for instance. Right,

1011
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 1: if something happens midday, heat of the day in February

1012
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: and then Pempters dropped down to freezing, it's possible it

1013
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: could have been shoved in the ground when it was

1014
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: kind of wet and soggy and then subsequently froze and

1015
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 1: the ground hardened around it. Yeah, there's a whole bunch

1016
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 1: of questions about this. I mean, I don't disagree that

1017
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 1: it was done with some extreme force, so probably a guy. Also,

1018
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: I think he was probably strong enough that he could

1019
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 1: have defended himself against his niece probably well. And also

1020
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: I also don't see that she had any motive. Is

1021
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: literally he had raised her not it doesn't happen. But

1022
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 1: also there's the whole question of well, I think she

1023
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: was at her job at that time. She's where she

1024
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: was at her job. And then also, you know, having

1025
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 1: dual income in that time is better than having single incomes.

1026
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: Killing off somebody who's bringing income into the house maybe

1027
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: not not a smart move, you know. And also there

1028
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: was just there were better ways for her to do

1029
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: with They were less suspicious. I mean, you could have

1030
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 1: she could have like spiked his tea and sedated him

1031
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 1: and then smothered him with a pillow. Yeah, seventy years old.

1032
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:33,879
Speaker 1: No nobody if he'd just woken up dead in his bed,

1033
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 1: and he had just woken up dead in his bed,

1034
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 1: woken up to find him meant to say the top

1035
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 1: of the morning too, and feeling kind of dead. But anyway,

1036
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 1: she had better ways, So I'm gonna rule eat out

1037
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 1: if that's okay with Yeah. Next local person was the

1038
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: favorite suspect, Alfred J. Potter, the guy who on the

1039
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: farm was actually scrutinized quite extensively by Scotland. Yard happened

1040
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 1: on his land and there were some some things about him.

1041
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:11,439
Speaker 1: Like the local constable that that came to the crime

1042
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: scene initially before the Stratford police arrived, said that Potter

1043
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: seemed nervous and kind of upset and complained about being cold,

1044
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 1: and he also wanted to get out of there. As

1045
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 1: soon as the Stratford police showed up, he left, and

1046
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: and the constable thought that was kind of odd. The

1047
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 1: constable thought that was odd because he shouldn't have been

1048
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 1: squeamish around death because he worked on a farm, so

1049
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: he sees animals getting killed all the time. But that

1050
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 1: doesn't mean and I mean, it's a little different from

1051
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: a human being getting murdered. It is, but it also

1052
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: I guess, correct me if I'm wrong. But is was

1053
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: the furs an animal farm? That's a good question. I

1054
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 1: just you know, I think they were. I heard talk

1055
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: about him having a deal with with hafers and stuff

1056
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: like that, so I know they had at least some cattle,

1057
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,919
Speaker 1: but where they slaughtered regularly for food and and what's

1058
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 1: to say he didn't contract that workout? Well, there's all

1059
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff that you do on farms, like castrating

1060
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: animals and all kinds of good fun stuff. That's got

1061
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 1: but that's different than doing it to a human. Oh yeah,

1062
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:12,800
Speaker 1: oh yeah, very much, So you can be kind of

1063
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 1: in ear to the whole thing. But not only was

1064
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: it Charlie human being, but he was somebody that Potter

1065
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: had known for like five years, so obviously finding him

1066
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: brutally murdered been a big shot. Maybe you might have

1067
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: a really good reason for being uncomfortable at the scene.

1068
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: That was totally normal. Yeah, pretty much. So you know,

1069
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, I'm not gonna yet, I'm gonna say

1070
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 1: that doesn't really mean much. Uh, And of course there

1071
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 1: was a whole time that he saw Charlie in the fields.

1072
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: What's changed like several times. At first, he came out

1073
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: of the local pub about he said, around noontime and

1074
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: was walking through the village, and he said he looked

1075
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 1: up on Men Hill and saw Charlie about five hundred

1076
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: yards or so away working on the hedge. He said

1077
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,959
Speaker 1: the time was twelve ten. Later he changed that time

1078
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 1: to twelve fifteen. Later on changed it to twelve twenty.

1079
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: And then when they had the inquest hearing, He's he

1080
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: said at that time that he saw Charlie up about

1081
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 1: up on Man Hill, at about twelve thirty, and that

1082
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 1: he was standing there in shirt sleeves and not actually

1083
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: doing anything at the moment, just standing there. So maybe

1084
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: he saw Charlie, maybe he saw the murderer. I guess

1085
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: we've talked about this before, though, I mean, people's sense

1086
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: of time is so fickle and changes, especially as you're

1087
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: trying to remember. And if he had been drinking a

1088
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: little bit, I mean it's possible. So they'd had lunch.

1089
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: He wasn't at the pub because he was boozing it up.

1090
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: He was he had met a friend after doing something

1091
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: that morning that I cannot but yeah, and then they

1092
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 1: but they went there and they had lunch and a

1093
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 1: couple of drinks and a couple of drinks. But I'm sorry,

1094
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 1: but if I sit down at lunch and I have

1095
00:58:56,160 --> 00:59:00,439
Speaker 1: two beers with by lunch, my faculties room. I'm saying

1096
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: that his faculties are not in place. I'm just saying that,

1097
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: like even me totally sober, can think about how long

1098
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: something took, you know, a day or two ago, and

1099
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 1: say I think it took half hour when reality it

1100
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 1: took me ten minutes. No, No, I'm just saying that

1101
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 1: I don't think that he was. He was sauce, No, no,

1102
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that. I just think it could have

1103
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: affected his yeah, for sure. And I don't know if

1104
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: it's the custom and the pubs in Britain is to

1105
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 1: have bar time like we have here in America, where

1106
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 1: you sit your clocks ahead, you know. I don't know

1107
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: if they do that too, So that could tie. Yeah,

1108
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 1: that that can totally screw you up. There was another

1109
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: interesting point, which is several days after the murder, uh

1110
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: police said that they were going to fingerprint the weapons

1111
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 1: and see if they get idea to kill her from that.

1112
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 1: And that's when Potter said, oh, by the way, I

1113
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 1: should probably mention to you that I touched the murder weapons.

1114
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 1: I touched both the pitchfork, you know, and the slash hook,

1115
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: just so you know. And the police are like, why

1116
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: did you do that? And then and Potter says, well,

1117
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 1: Harry Beasley, remember Harry Beasley went up there with Eadie

1118
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: and Potter found the body. He said, well, Harry Beasley

1119
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: said that I should check the body and make sure

1120
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: he's not not still alive. So I got quite kind

1121
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 1: of close to him, and I think I tie. I'm

1122
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: pretty sure I touched the murder weapons. So when police

1123
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 1: asked Harry Beasley about this, Beasley said no, I said

1124
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 1: no such thing to him. And Beasley also said he

1125
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 1: doesn't didn't recall seeing Potter touched the weapons at all.

1126
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 1: In Potter's defense, though Beasley and um Eadie left the

1127
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: scene to go, he dropped her back in the house

1128
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: and and get her settled and then go get the constable.

1129
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 1: So you know, Potters just hanging out there by himself,

1130
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 1: So he could have possibly happened. He could have been

1131
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 1: a passing, you know, even just so much as a

1132
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:56,919
Speaker 1: sarcastic comment. You just probably tended to make sure he's alive. Huh, Yeah,

1133
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 1: that might as your as your partner might want to

1134
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: say something like that. Yeah, sure. And so it's entirely

1135
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: possible he did touch them in all innocence. That obviously

1136
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: raised some suspicions with the police, the fact that he

1137
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,960
Speaker 1: waited several days, although again you know, the fact that

1138
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,680
Speaker 1: he waited and then said, oh, by the way, you know,

1139
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 1: after the police said we're gonna fingerprint the weapons, oh,

1140
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: by the way, I touched them. And by the way,

1141
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: they found no fingerprints on the weapons. Well, which is

1142
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 1: strange because at least Charlie should have been on there,

1143
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: and but then maybe the killer wiped him off. I

1144
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: don't know. But again, that's also something you can kind

1145
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: of forget too, you know, stressful moment and all that,

1146
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 1: and suddenly you know, and it doesn't strike you as

1147
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 1: important that you touched those things, and then when you

1148
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 1: hear about the paying print, it's like, oh, you know,

1149
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 1: I should probably let you guys know that I touched

1150
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 1: these things. So and the only other thing about it

1151
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: that was even suspicious about Potters apparently he had been skimming.

1152
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 1: He had been skimming. Yeah, he had been apparently over

1153
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 1: reporting the time that his laborers, including Charlie, we're putting

1154
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 1: it on the farm, and then and then pocketing the difference,

1155
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 1: which was not was done an uncommon practice, No, not

1156
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 1: really to this day do that yeah, oh yeah, yeah. So,

1157
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 1: and that's certainly not a motive from murder. Even if

1158
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 1: Charlie had found out, Charlie might have been like, you know,

1159
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 1: that's what I would expect, or you know, I mean,

1160
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 1: certainly Charlie is not gonna go I'm gonna ratch you

1161
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 1: out and you're gonna have to pay your dad back

1162
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: to some of them, like, you know, twenty pounds, you know,

1163
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 1: and then he's gonna get murdered over that. I can't

1164
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 1: quite see that. And how the hell did Charlie find out?

1165
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 1: Who told him? And why did not tell the police? Yeah? Yeah,

1166
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 1: how did Charlie get ahold of the books? Is what

1167
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 1: I want to know. Yeah. Oh, and there was another

1168
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 1: last piece of potentially incriminating information which apparently Potter's trousers

1169
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 1: had some marks on the front of them which appeared

1170
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 1: to be blood. Didn't he explain that away because he

1171
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 1: had to go get a half her out of a ditch? Uh? Well,

1172
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is, um, he worked on

1173
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 1: a farm. I mean you're gonna get dirt, blood and

1174
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff, That's what I mean. Yeah, So,

1175
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: I mean Potter was Potter was definitely a strong suspect,

1176
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 1: well not that strong. He was a suspect, stronger than

1177
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:06,640
Speaker 1: any we've said so far, was the strongest suspect, but

1178
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:09,959
Speaker 1: still not much of a suspect really. Frankly, they'd still

1179
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: never found a real motive. And you know, it also

1180
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 1: seems like with the kind of damage that was done,

1181
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 1: you would expect more than just a few flecks of

1182
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 1: blood on the front of your pants. That's true. If

1183
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: you slice a guy with a billhook, there's gonna be blood.

1184
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. So that that's that's a

1185
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 1: good point. And obviously if he did if he did

1186
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: do it, he would have run home and changed. But

1187
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,480
Speaker 1: then you know, if he had marks in his pants

1188
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 1: is because there's something else that he did in the farm.

1189
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm just not seeing it with Potter. I

1190
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: just don't think it was him. So at least our

1191
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: next theory, which is maybe it was a serial killer

1192
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 1: ran maybe it was just a kind of a random

1193
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 1: thing it turns As it turns out in England there

1194
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 1: are actually a lot of people out wandering the countryside

1195
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 1: because people in some of the cities had actually been

1196
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: bombed out, they lost their homes, They were kind of

1197
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 1: refugees within England. Other people decided to get the hell

1198
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:07,760
Speaker 1: out of the city's just for safety's sake, because they

1199
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 1: were catching some bombs from the Germans and so they

1200
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,320
Speaker 1: were Actually there was a lot more mobility in England

1201
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 1: at this time than they normally was, so there were

1202
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 1: there were people out in the countryside wandering around. Very

1203
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 1: easy for some ne're do well from London to pop

1204
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: into some little village or another and just murder somebody. Yeah,

1205
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 1: but it was a pretty stylized murder, it really was.

1206
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 1: And if what was his name, the investigator, Fabian, if

1207
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:41,919
Speaker 1: he was able to dig up something that happened over

1208
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 1: a hundred years ago that was quote unquote identical, it

1209
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 1: seems he would have been able to find if some

1210
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 1: other somebody brought that to somebody. He didn't dig it up.

1211
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 1: Somebody brought the seventy year old, sure, but there was

1212
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:58,440
Speaker 1: enough stuff around this that I don't know. I forgot

1213
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 1: to mention that that that murder from um, it turns

1214
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 1: out that was a little bit exaggerated. Yeah, it turns

1215
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 1: out that James Haywood, the murderer, actually just attacked her

1216
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 1: with the pitchfork and not didn't pain her to the ground.

1217
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: He just stabbed her, you know. And she didn't die

1218
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 1: right away, No, No, she was taken off to her

1219
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 1: I think her daughter's home, and she eventually died later

1220
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 1: that day, late in the evening. She did die from

1221
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 1: the wounds. Oh yeah, she definitely died. He was tried

1222
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 1: for it, but he wasn't hanged. As the story says

1223
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 1: with the sanitarium. Yeah, he was. He was declared not

1224
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 1: guilty because of insanity, and he spent the rest of

1225
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 1: his life in an insane asylum where he died. And

1226
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 1: uh so that story was not quite correct. Um. And

1227
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 1: there was also some allegations that potentially an attendant was

1228
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 1: related to Charlie, although again it's at such a reach. Well,

1229
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 1: it's a tenuous connection. And again it doesn't really mean much.

1230
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 1: I mean in rural England and again and probably a

1231
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:55,960
Speaker 1: lot of other places to people are living in these

1232
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 1: little villages and farms, probably a lot of those people

1233
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 1: are related and a tenuous way or another second third cousins,

1234
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 1: I mean, probably all over the place. So it doesn't

1235
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:07,480
Speaker 1: mean squat really. Well, back to a serial killer, I guess,

1236
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 1: I guess there's not much to say about that except that,

1237
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 1: you know, if he went around and murdered a few

1238
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:16,080
Speaker 1: people here here and there, and if he buried his

1239
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: m o a little bit. One of the things you

1240
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 1: got to remember about about Charlie. I said he was

1241
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 1: seventy four years old, he had been working outside his

1242
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:27,480
Speaker 1: entire life. He probably looked older than he was from

1243
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 1: just all that. Yeah, and so you see this guy,

1244
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: you know, walking with the cannon everything, you know, hobbling

1245
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 1: around about to work on the hedge, and you're thinking

1246
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 1: easy pickings and walk over him, shove him down, I know.

1247
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 1: And it turns out that turns out the old guy

1248
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 1: is a lot stronger than he actually looks. He puts

1249
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:46,439
Speaker 1: up a fight, in which case, you know, you start,

1250
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 1: you start using all the weapons at your disposal, and

1251
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:52,919
Speaker 1: so maybe turned into a sort of a bigger brew

1252
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: haha than you actually intended it to. So I there's

1253
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:00,120
Speaker 1: another theory on here that I think is more are

1254
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:04,240
Speaker 1: appropriate for this. But calling it a serial killer I

1255
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:09,760
Speaker 1: think is an incorrect naming for this entire scenario that

1256
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 1: we've just talked about. Yeah, I mean, this could be

1257
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:16,440
Speaker 1: just a random attack. That's not a serial killer scenario

1258
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, so I'm careful to throw I just

1259
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 1: I don't want to throw serial killer on everything. No exactly.

1260
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 1: I mean, granted that gets us higher rankings and iTunes,

1261
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 1: but it's not the truth. No, not not at all. Okay,

1262
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:32,360
Speaker 1: that theory you're thinking about, I think is the one

1263
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 1: labeled thrill killed by local high school kids. That actually

1264
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 1: not that one. I like that one. Yeah, Well, yeah,

1265
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 1: that's the entire theory, right there. I know that kind

1266
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 1: of is. Yeah. So yeah, well you've heard all the evidence.

1267
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 1: I like it, but you know, yeah, and you made

1268
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 1: it up. That's why you like it. They made a

1269
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 1: movie about this. I know what you did less Valentine's

1270
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 1: and that. Yeah. Okay, well I'll move on to our

1271
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 1: next theory, which is actually kind of similar to the

1272
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 1: serial killer, which is a robbery gone wrong. It's essentially identical.

1273
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:06,560
Speaker 1: Well again, if you want of these guys and you're

1274
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 1: and you're on the road, you're kind of homeless, you've

1275
01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 1: been made into her refuge and stuff. I mean, it

1276
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:12,920
Speaker 1: might have it might have occurred to you to do

1277
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 1: a little robbery. Ah, the way you picked Charlie, I

1278
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 1: don't know. You didn't exactly look like a wealthy guy.

1279
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 1: But at the same time he looked that you might

1280
01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 1: have looked like really easy pickings. Uh So the only

1281
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 1: thing that I can think about to make this or

1282
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:29,400
Speaker 1: not the high school kids, but the random killer bit

1283
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:33,480
Speaker 1: work is Charlie was known to take his lunch with him,

1284
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 1: and so if you were walking on the road or

1285
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:38,519
Speaker 1: you're walking through the area and you're hungry and you

1286
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 1: see a guy with a sandwich and he's got it

1287
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:43,519
Speaker 1: in an apple, and you say, I'm sorry, I'm really

1288
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 1: really hungry, could I have an apple please? And he

1289
01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 1: cusses you out for asking for an apple because you

1290
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:53,320
Speaker 1: and every other Tom, Dick and Harry you're coming through

1291
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 1: here and ask me my food. Stop it, and somebody

1292
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,519
Speaker 1: loses their mind over that. I mean that, that's that's

1293
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:02,400
Speaker 1: the best motive I can come up for with this,

1294
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 1: the random attacks scenario that I don't know he because

1295
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:09,760
Speaker 1: he doesn't look rich. He doesn't look rich, but he

1296
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 1: also seems like the kind of guy who totally would

1297
01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 1: give you an apple if you were walking past. He

1298
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 1: probably at the very least would have been polite about it,

1299
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:21,160
Speaker 1: although you never know his fly wasn't done. He might

1300
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:22,720
Speaker 1: have he might have said, oh he didn't want the

1301
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 1: sandwich that bad? Well, oh no different, yeah, no kidding,

1302
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:32,639
Speaker 1: but yeah again, it could have been like you said,

1303
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 1: it's sort of a random sort of racing and somebody

1304
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 1: wanted to rob him. And then it turns out, like

1305
01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 1: I said in the previous series, that they bit off

1306
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:41,639
Speaker 1: more than they thought they were gonna be biting off,

1307
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:45,519
Speaker 1: and and they had to you know, basically really do

1308
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:47,639
Speaker 1: a lot to subdue Charlie and in the end wind

1309
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:50,639
Speaker 1: up going a little overboard because by this time, especially

1310
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:53,840
Speaker 1: if you're just kind of a punk mentality, you're ever thinking, oh,

1311
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 1: this old guy should have been a pushover. Now I'm angry,

1312
01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:59,679
Speaker 1: you know, and then you go after him great guns

1313
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:02,639
Speaker 1: and guess on the other hand, you know, he bought

1314
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:05,680
Speaker 1: this watch used it wasn't some family and that was

1315
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:07,840
Speaker 1: the only thing that was really missing from him, right yeah,

1316
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:09,920
Speaker 1: And it might not have it might not have been

1317
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 1: taken from him. Maybe he didn't have it on him, yeah,

1318
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:13,840
Speaker 1: I mean, or he did have it on him. And

1319
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:15,800
Speaker 1: you know when somebody said, all right, old man, give

1320
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 1: me your watch, like, you know, are you really going

1321
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 1: to I don't know. I might mean obviously because he's

1322
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 1: been dead for a longer been I've been alive. But

1323
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:27,519
Speaker 1: I you know, I guess in my mind, I kind

1324
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:31,879
Speaker 1: of think, like, really, you're gonna you're gonna fight somebody

1325
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 1: over a crappy little watch. I mean, okay, but I

1326
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:38,559
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe, yeah, I I don't know. Charlie might

1327
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:42,200
Speaker 1: have just like you know, especially from that older generation,

1328
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:45,880
Speaker 1: I mean, people might have been more inclined to look

1329
01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:48,599
Speaker 1: at things in moral terms. And I'm thinking, this guy

1330
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:50,760
Speaker 1: wants to rob me. You know, I'm not going to

1331
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:54,000
Speaker 1: permit it, just on general principles through him, you know,

1332
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 1: and all that. And you know, Charlie might have felt like,

1333
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 1: actually he was well armed, and you know, maybe he

1334
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:02,920
Speaker 1: had one of his weapons on him. He knew how

1335
01:11:02,920 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 1: to use the what was it, It wasn't called the

1336
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 1: bill hook. He was obviously a rather handy with the

1337
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:12,760
Speaker 1: slash hook. Yeah, probably could would have felt like he

1338
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:16,879
Speaker 1: could defend himself. Yeah yeah, but apparently not quite capable

1339
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 1: enough unfortunately for him. Uh So, under our next theory,

1340
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:23,599
Speaker 1: I mean, the robberty gone wrong is also is really

1341
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:26,799
Speaker 1: a possibility, I think, but you know, who knows. Again,

1342
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 1: sad to tell you, we haven't reached quite the end here.

1343
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 1: This one is probably not going to get solved, not

1344
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:36,479
Speaker 1: for the next dirty seconds, at least until we solve it. Okay,

1345
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 1: I'm gonna name the killer Jack. The ripper Jack would

1346
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 1: have been probably at least seventy five in this time,

1347
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 1: because his last murder was in correct, I think that

1348
01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 1: sounds right. Yeah, it's been so long since I've looked

1349
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:58,120
Speaker 1: at his dates. Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, so

1350
01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:00,599
Speaker 1: let's say Jack started young and it was a team. Okay,

1351
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:02,519
Speaker 1: you would have been born in the eighteen seventies, same

1352
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:09,720
Speaker 1: years Charlie. Maybe he took two old cores fighting in Yeah, yeah,

1353
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 1: that's why. That's why Jack was. It was the wound

1354
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:15,599
Speaker 1: from from left to right or from right to left.

1355
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 1: I'm sorry this this is fun, but that's a good one.

1356
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 1: But yeah, I know. Well, there's also, of course the

1357
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer, and it's not. Yeah. Yeah, so let's see

1358
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 1: what we're gonna like, Hang on a second here, I

1359
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 1: am gonna go for this one. I think that's uh,

1360
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:37,720
Speaker 1: it was a random killing. I don't think anybody in

1361
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:40,559
Speaker 1: the village really had an incentive to kill him. I

1362
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 1: don't think anybody had an incentive to kill him in

1363
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 1: such a huge, horrible way. I mean, it's something if

1364
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:48,559
Speaker 1: I wanted to kill Charlie and I lived in that

1365
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:50,160
Speaker 1: what I would do is I would bash him over

1366
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:53,000
Speaker 1: the head with a rock and leave his bodyline near

1367
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 1: a rock in the grass. So maybe it looked like

1368
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:57,360
Speaker 1: possibly he just tripped and fell and bashed his head.

1369
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:00,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't do something super spectacular in a

1370
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 1: tiny village and then trying to make it. I mean, yeah,

1371
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 1: is this a Mr Bean scenario where he he trips

1372
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 1: on a rock and the pitchfork goes flying and the

1373
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:13,160
Speaker 1: flashok hits him and bounces off and then he gets

1374
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 1: knocked in the head and then he falls. And yeah,

1375
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:17,880
Speaker 1: I mean I don't think so. I just think that

1376
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:20,639
Speaker 1: it was it was not somebody from the village. I

1377
01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:22,880
Speaker 1: I just really find it hard to believe somebody from

1378
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,840
Speaker 1: the village would have done that. I agree, Yeah, so

1379
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:29,120
Speaker 1: I'm just taking some random, some random thrill kill murder.

1380
01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:32,599
Speaker 1: Perhaps that that seems like the most likely. I mean,

1381
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:36,640
Speaker 1: it could. I think that the whole witchcraft angle is

1382
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:41,000
Speaker 1: WHOI But I also think that there is the possibility

1383
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:46,000
Speaker 1: that somebody in the village knew something or was responsible.

1384
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 1: It's really small chance, but I can't I can't rule

1385
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:51,880
Speaker 1: that out entirely. Yeah, it could have it could have

1386
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 1: been I mean, actually, you know, there could have been

1387
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 1: one person in the village who was a murderer. That

1388
01:13:57,160 --> 01:13:59,200
Speaker 1: could have been I mean, yeah, he could have He

1389
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 1: could have been a dirty old man for all we know.

1390
01:14:01,280 --> 01:14:04,360
Speaker 1: When he was pinching some girls Fani every time he

1391
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 1: saw and her dad or brother had enough. I mean

1392
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:12,000
Speaker 1: that happens that used to happen. You know, you've defended

1393
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:15,720
Speaker 1: her honor by taking the guy's head. Yeah yeah, but

1394
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:18,759
Speaker 1: I think it was random to know most likely, but

1395
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:24,080
Speaker 1: we don't think we'll ever know. Um okay, So that's

1396
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:28,040
Speaker 1: it for this this episode. So a few administrative details

1397
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:29,720
Speaker 1: here at number one. You probably want to know how

1398
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:31,559
Speaker 1: to get ahold of us. You can get a hold

1399
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 1: of us to our email, which is Thinking Sideways Podcast

1400
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:38,639
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. We also have one of these website,

1401
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 1: thinking Bobber's. It is called Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.

1402
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 1: Or you can download our episodes or listen to them. Uh,

1403
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:48,040
Speaker 1: and we'll have links out there. We're definitely gonna have

1404
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 1: some cool links for you, like that BBC interview that

1405
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 1: we found someone oh yeah, and of course there oh yeah.

1406
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Speaker 1: You can also find us in other places like a

1407
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1409
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1410
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Speaker 1: like you better, so it's a win all the way around.

1411
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Speaker 1: And of course you can stream us like Google Play

1412
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Speaker 1: and lots and lots of other places. We are also

1413
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:16,840
Speaker 1: part of this whole social media thing you probably heard

1414
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:20,040
Speaker 1: so much about. There's the Facebook where we have a

1415
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 1: group and a page, So join the group, like the page.

1416
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 1: Don't try to friend us, but just join the group.

1417
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:28,120
Speaker 1: There's lots of fun discussions going on out there. We

1418
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:31,840
Speaker 1: are also on the Twitter where we are thinking sideways

1419
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:36,200
Speaker 1: and we have a supreddit thinking sideways and what else. Uh,

1420
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 1: there's merchandise if you're really interested. You can get shirts, mugs, stickers. Uh,

1421
01:15:42,160 --> 01:15:45,000
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1422
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:47,400
Speaker 1: on the right hand panel of our website. And that's

1423
01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:51,679
Speaker 1: about it. Um So until next week on our next

1424
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:56,360
Speaker 1: fantastic mystery, I'm signing off. This is Jose to lou By.

1425
01:15:57,439 --> 01:15:59,560
Speaker 1: So I have this hedge that needs trimming. Can you

1426
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 1: guys come and take a look at it? And I

1427
01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 1: got this d a specialty. Okay, fine, bye guys,