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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan according to phrase a

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Speaker 1: few years ago when I was appearing with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: on her shows, and I used it constantly setting since then.

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Speaker 1: I'll state it right now just so that everyone knows.

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Speaker 1: And it's a bit melodramatic, but sometimes you just you

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Speaker 1: can't form the words and so you just go back

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Speaker 1: and I have to use this that the house of

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Speaker 1: depravity has no basement. And what I mean by that

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Speaker 1: you see things that so shock your conscience. You hear

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Speaker 1: about them, you read about them, and when you begin

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Speaker 1: to think about what cases you want to discuss, sometimes

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Speaker 1: you retract from it, but you sally forth and you

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Speaker 1: do what you do. And it's that way with certainly

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Speaker 1: with my career. There were certain things I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to bear witness too, that I didn't want to see,

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Speaker 1: but I had them. And today on Bodybags, we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about the death, the homicide, the brutal homicide

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Speaker 1: of a young lady named Cassidy Rainwater, and not just

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Speaker 1: her death, but what we believe she endured leading up

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Speaker 1: to the moment in time when people finally, investigators finally

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Speaker 1: verified that they had her mortal remains or at least

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Speaker 1: all that remained of her. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is Bodybags. I gotta apologize to you. I apologize

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Speaker 1: for dragging it down this road, but I felt as

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Speaker 1: though that we needed to chat about this case with

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Speaker 1: me is Dave Mack. He's a senior crime reporter with

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Speaker 1: Crime Online. We cover a lot of things man, this case, though,

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Speaker 1: it's a bit difficult to take in. Would you agree

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Speaker 1: with that.

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Speaker 2: The home of Depravity has no basement? Is that what

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Speaker 2: you said?

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Speaker 1: The House of depravity has no basement? The house?

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Speaker 2: This is the story that defines that I had to

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Speaker 2: look up terms used in the reporting of this to

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Speaker 2: know exactly what they were talking about, because these are

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Speaker 2: things associated with wild animals that one might hunt, not

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Speaker 2: human beings that we're supposed to care and love for.

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Speaker 2: And the story of Cassidy Rainwater, it's beyond the pale.

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Speaker 2: It really is one of these stories, Joe that you

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Speaker 2: keep thinking this has got to be made up for

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Speaker 2: some kind of slasher movie, but no, it actually did happen.

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Speaker 2: A thirty three year old woman need a little bit

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Speaker 2: of help going through all the ups and downs of life.

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Speaker 2: We come through them and she thought she had found

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Speaker 2: a friend, and that friend offered her a place to stay.

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Speaker 2: Does she get her feet back under? He gave Cassidy

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Speaker 2: Rainwater a place to stay in a loft inside his house.

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Speaker 2: She was reported missing by a friend who hadn't seen

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Speaker 2: her in a while, and the only person that she

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Speaker 2: knew to talk to was a person she thought his

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Speaker 2: name was James Phelps. The story that James told her

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Speaker 2: friend Cora Terry didn't add up. Cora Terry picked up

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Speaker 2: the phone and made a missing person's call. My friend

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Speaker 2: is missing. I don't know where she is. That's the

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Speaker 2: official start of the last chapter of Cassidy Rainwater's life.

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Speaker 2: Four weeks later, a picture shows up at the FBI

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Speaker 2: field office. But the FBI has a tip line. In

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Speaker 2: this particular case, the tip line helped bring about the case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, and just so, folks have kind of

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Speaker 1: a geographic orientation to this. This case comes out of

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Speaker 1: southwest Missouri, and so whoever called us in. And I'm

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Speaker 1: fascinated because this is an anonymous tip, Dave. This is

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Speaker 1: not like, Hey, I'm so and so and I'm giving

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Speaker 1: you this information. It is an anonymous tip. And that's

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Speaker 1: the way it's being framed. Who would have had knowledge

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Speaker 1: about this, Who would have known about this, who would

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Speaker 1: have had that picture? And that's a much more when

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Speaker 1: we talk about the pictures in just a moment, that's

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Speaker 1: a more ominous thing when you think about who's distributing

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Speaker 1: this kind of image, so that it's being consumed by

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Speaker 1: someone out there they have it in their possession. But

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Speaker 1: the field office that this was called into was the

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Speaker 1: Kansas City Field Office, which you would probably expect would

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Speaker 1: cover this region of the country. It's down near Springfield, Missouri,

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Speaker 1: and it's in an isolated area to a great degree.

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Speaker 1: It's very rural. Lot of farming that goes on down

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Speaker 1: in that area, and certainly a lot of hunting lots

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Speaker 1: and lots of hunting. It's renowned for taking big deer

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Speaker 1: whitetail down in that area. So folks that occupy that

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Speaker 1: space are going to know more of a farm like

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Speaker 1: setting or.

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Speaker 3: More of a rural type of world.

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Speaker 1: That they're going to be exposed to. And the actual

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Speaker 1: setting of what turned out to be the crime scene

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Speaker 1: is a place of isolation. It's wooded, thickly wooded, where

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Speaker 1: if you didn't know that it was there. You know,

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Speaker 1: you might pass by it and not have an awareness

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Speaker 1: that it's there. The photographs were just the start. When

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Speaker 1: we learn about what went on at that location, you

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Speaker 1: can understand why a perpetrator in a case like this

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Speaker 1: would need privacy and isolation. In the age that we

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Speaker 1: find ourselves in right now, when it comes to photography

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Speaker 1: and forensics, there is a specific thing that we look

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Speaker 1: for in photographs. It's not like back in the days

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Speaker 1: of analog photography, you would essentially take it somewhere and

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Speaker 1: have images develop. My wife likes to joke she was

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Speaker 1: in college, Dave, you might remember this. My wife was

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Speaker 1: actually a photo mate, which means she worked in one

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Speaker 1: of those little booths that people would drive up to

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Speaker 1: and drop off their film. They have to take it,

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Speaker 1: and they take it and send it off to a lab.

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Speaker 1: A truck would come by pick it up and they

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Speaker 1: process the film. And those days are way behind us

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Speaker 1: now at this point in time, forensics now. And you

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Speaker 1: talk about digital photography, particularly if you're imaging things on

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Speaker 1: a phone, Forensically, there's a lot of value with that

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Speaker 1: phone and things are dayton Tom stamped relative to that,

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Speaker 1: and so that's very important. I think that that actually

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Speaker 1: plays a role in certainly the case of Cassidy Rainwater.

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Speaker 2: This story of Cassidy Rainwater is every parent's nightmare. I

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Speaker 2: have daughters. We have tried to warn them their whole

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Speaker 2: life that there are people in this world you cannot trust.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't mean we don't tell our boys that it's

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Speaker 2: just with girls. I have girls in this age group here,

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Speaker 2: and I think about my precious Hayley and my precious

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Speaker 2: Hannah at the hands of evil that befell this woman,

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Speaker 2: Cassidy Rainwater. I mentioned that it was a family friend.

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Speaker 2: Relative hadn't seen Cassidy in a month, and when she

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Speaker 2: tried to find out where she was, she couldn't find out.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't a lot of help, and that's why she picked

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Speaker 2: up the phone and called the Sheriff's office said, hey,

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Speaker 2: I can't find my friend. Well they started looking. The

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Speaker 2: Sheriff's did, Well, we got to look for her. She's

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Speaker 2: thirty three years old. Thirty three ye old women don't

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Speaker 2: just disappear. And so as they started looking, they knew

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Speaker 2: they had one contact where this friend slash relative said

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Speaker 2: that she was with this guy named Phelps. When they

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Speaker 2: talked to James Phelps. He said that Cassidy left for

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Speaker 2: Colorado round July twenty fifth. He actually volunteered that date.

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Speaker 2: When investigators start an investigation and they have a person

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Speaker 2: that might have information about they start making notes and

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Speaker 2: they write down everything like date and time July twenty fifth,

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Speaker 2: about what time and the reason is. They come back

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Speaker 2: later on ask that same person same question and see

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Speaker 2: if they they say it was you said it is

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Speaker 2: July twenty third at nine am that she took off

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Speaker 2: for Colorado, and the suspect says, yeah, that's it. Well,

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Speaker 2: they know he's lying because the first he said July

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Speaker 2: twenty fifth at twelve o'clock. And that's what they did

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Speaker 2: with Phelps. They tripped him up and knew right away

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Speaker 2: they had a big case. They didn't know how big

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Speaker 2: till the FBI calls in the middle of September. When

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Speaker 2: they talked to Phelps, looked at his phone. What did

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Speaker 2: they see? They saw pictures of Cassidy rainwater, partially clothed

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Speaker 2: in a cage, partially nude body inside a cage. The

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Speaker 2: anonymous tip with photos that went into the Kansas City

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Speaker 2: Bureau the FBI. We mentioned this earlier. Where did they

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Speaker 2: come from who sent those how to be somebody close

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Speaker 2: to it, right, But that's what gave them. We're looking

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Speaker 2: at an anonymous tip picture of the girl we're looking

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Speaker 2: for in a cage, partially nude, and that's why they

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Speaker 2: were like, we've got to see if these photos began

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Speaker 2: on Phelps' phone.

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Speaker 1: You try to validate what they call the provenance of

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Speaker 1: the photographs. Try to validate it not simply Dayton Tom

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Speaker 1: stamp on it, but also points of origin. Is it legitimate?

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Speaker 1: Is it a real photograph?

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Speaker 3: Because I got to tell you, Dave, if I see

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Speaker 3: a photo which these people have seen, these investigators, I

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Speaker 3: got to ask myself this question, just that human part

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Speaker 3: of me, am I actually seeing something real?

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Speaker 1: Or is this something from a movie set? Because how

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Speaker 1: in the world do you look at this and think?

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Speaker 1: And keep in mind, those of us that are in

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Speaker 1: investigations and in forensics, we're very jaded. Okay, we're very jaded,

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Speaker 1: and we always say nothing surprises us. However, in a

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Speaker 1: case like this, if this crosses your desk as an

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Speaker 1: investigator and you look at it, this is going to

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Speaker 1: have you take a step back. This is kind of

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Speaker 1: like a moment in time that the investigator will remember,

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Speaker 1: it's so striking when you have an image of fellow

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Speaker 1: human being inside of a cage that's obviously being held captive.

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Speaker 1: Is she being held captive at that moment in time?

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Speaker 1: Is she doing this of her own free will? You'd

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Speaker 1: have to ask that question, because, let's face it, you've

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Speaker 1: got people that engage in all kinds of behaviors. And

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Speaker 1: is this something she's doing because she's chosen to, she's

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Speaker 1: engaging in it, she's partially nude, it's very provocative. Or

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Speaker 1: is she being deprived of her freedom? Is she being tortured?

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Speaker 1: Anybody ever took an intro sociology class, they talk about

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Speaker 1: Maslow's hierarchy, you know those basic things that we need

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Speaker 1: clothing and shelter and food and all that. Well just

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Speaker 1: demonstrated right here. You've got somebody that's partially clothed. Has

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Speaker 1: she had clothing taken away from her? And what's the

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Speaker 1: purpose of her clothing being taken away from her? Why's

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Speaker 1: she being held in occasion? Why are you photographing it?

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Speaker 1: To begin with? Why are you actually photographing this? Well?

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Speaker 1: Why do we photograph things well? To document that we

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Speaker 1: document that thing that we're doing or that we're engaged in. Well,

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Speaker 1: are you doing this in order to review it for

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Speaker 1: your own pleasure or are you doing this to share

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Speaker 1: it with others? And there are huge networks of people

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Speaker 1: that are out there in the dark web area that

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Speaker 1: feast off of this sort of thing, this kind of depravity,

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Speaker 1: that they will share images like this, And as an investigator,

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Speaker 1: you begin to think, well, is this what happened? Did somebody,

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Speaker 1: this anonymous person, maybe they had this image shared with

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Speaker 1: them and suddenly they grew conscious all of a sudden.

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Speaker 1: Even in my construct of normal, this is not normal.

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Speaker 1: You know what am I viewing here? This is something

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Speaker 1: that's critical that I need to get to somebody that

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Speaker 1: can do something about it. So when the investigators begin

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Speaker 1: to dig into this, they know that they have Phelps there,

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Speaker 1: They know that he's somebody that they need to chat with.

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Speaker 1: At minimum, they know that he probably has a phone,

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Speaker 1: and they know that they need to execute a warrant.

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Speaker 1: You know, the thing about predators like this is that

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Speaker 1: when they document things, and let's just say they're doing

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Speaker 1: it for their own pleasure, it's not. They've gone to

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Speaker 1: a lot of effort to go through all of the steps. First,

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Speaker 1: off to deprive somebody of their freedom through kidnapping, then

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Speaker 1: holding them and imprisoning them, and then essentially torturing them,

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Speaker 1: and all along the way, they're documenting every step. From

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Speaker 1: an investigative standpoint, that's something that we can look at

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Speaker 1: forensically and begin to put together a timeline. You'd mentioned earlier.

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Speaker 1: Her friend noticed that she was missing. Okay, from where

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Speaker 1: was she missing and when was she last seen alive?

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Speaker 1: What has happened in the meantime. This guy claims that

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Speaker 1: she was staying there with him until she got back

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Speaker 1: on her feet. It's interesting when police actually went to

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Speaker 1: his home to conduct an initial interview, he had said

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Speaker 1: that she was staying in this kind of lofted area

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Speaker 1: that he had in his house, and when they observed

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Speaker 1: that area, there were no belongings of hers there. You're

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Speaker 1: talking about somebody that was trying to get back on

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Speaker 1: her feet. When you think that she would have some

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Speaker 1: element of clothing or some type of personal item that

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Speaker 1: was up there, there was nothing. Matter of fact, the

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Speaker 1: police actually actually used the word stripped.

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Speaker 2: Even if she packed up to leave, even if there

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Speaker 2: would still be signs she had been there, there'd have

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Speaker 2: to be something it's actually the lack of evidence in

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Speaker 2: this case that becomes evidence.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. And we've talked about that before on

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Speaker 1: body bags, that negative findings are just as positive as

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Speaker 1: or just as good whether as positive findings in an investigation,

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Speaker 1: because it leads you down a different road investigatively, you're

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Speaker 1: not judging the roads you're going down. You're just saying

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Speaker 1: it's a different road. It's pushing you in a different

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Speaker 1: direction as the investigation takes you. So an absence of

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Speaker 1: a demonstrative evidence that somebody had existed in this location,

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Speaker 1: and there's a stark absence of it, And so you're

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Speaker 1: saying to us that you gave her a space in

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Speaker 1: which to get back on her feet. Why is there

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Speaker 1: no evidence here that she had in twelve the structure

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Speaker 1: with you? What did you do with these items? All

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Speaker 1: the while the investigators, you know, formulating these questions in

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Speaker 1: their mind. And then can you imagine being a sheriff's

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Speaker 1: investigator in some small rural area in isolation like this,

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Speaker 1: and you're looking into this case, you're trying to put

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Speaker 1: it all together, and then all of a sudden you're

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Speaker 1: contacted by the Feds that say, listen, we've got something

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Speaker 1: for you here. We've got something that might be connected

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Speaker 1: to your jurisdiction and a lady that's currently missing. I

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Speaker 1: think you're going to want to take a look. I

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Speaker 1: can't even begin to imagine what those Sheriff's Office investigators

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Speaker 1: thought when they saw these images. When I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about what cases to discuss on body bags, I never

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Speaker 1: thought the words cage and gantry crane were going to

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Speaker 1: be part of the discussion, but my gosh, they certainly

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Speaker 1: are in this case.

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Speaker 2: I had never heard that term gantry crane used while

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Speaker 2: dealing with human beings in a case. I had to

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Speaker 2: look up what it was. Tell everybody what.

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Speaker 1: It is, gantry crane. They've been around for a while,

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Speaker 1: and you can actually make these things at home if

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Speaker 1: you wish. As a matter of fact, there's an image

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Speaker 1: that floats around out there from back in the fifties

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Speaker 1: from case involving a that many of our listeners will

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Speaker 1: have heard of, and that's Ed Gain from Plainfield, Wisconsin,

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Speaker 1: the original Leatherface, I think, and he was a necrophile

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Speaker 1: who had also killed a woman in addition to disinturning

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Speaker 1: bodies and this sort of thing and doing horrible things

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Speaker 1: with bodies. But there's an image of crime scene image

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Speaker 1: that was taken at his rural farm where he had

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Speaker 1: fashioned a type of gantry crane in order to literally

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Speaker 1: feel dress one of his victims. And it's one of

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Speaker 1: those types of images that you never forget when you

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Speaker 1: see it, because, particularly those of you that are not

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Speaker 1: familiar with the dressing or field dressing of a deer.

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Speaker 1: The deer when you place them on a crane like

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Speaker 1: this and you can wench it up, You can attach

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Speaker 1: a wench to it and it can either be hand

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Speaker 1: cranked or it can be electric. You winch the remains

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Speaker 1: of the deer and it's inverted because you want the

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Speaker 1: blood to flow out and the body of the animal

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Speaker 1: is eviscerated. That means the organs are removed. We've talked

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Speaker 1: about that, I think in my autopsy episode of body bags,

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Speaker 1: because of visceration is the term that we use when

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Speaker 1: we remove the organs and the blood is drained at

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Speaker 1: that point in time. In this particular case, apparently what

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Speaker 1: law enforcement is stating is that they actually have an image.

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Speaker 1: I'll let this think in just for a second. They

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Speaker 1: actually have an image of this poor woman Cassidy. Rainwater

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Speaker 1: will say her name again, Cassidy Rainwater, as she has

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Speaker 1: been winched up onto a gantry crane and eviscerated. Her

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Speaker 1: organs have been removed. Now we don't know specifically what

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Speaker 1: cause of death is in this particular case, but what

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Speaker 1: we do know is that she was imaged inside of

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Speaker 1: a cage, so we know that she was held against

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Speaker 1: her will. And then there's documentation that she is deceased.

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Speaker 1: By virtue of the fact that they've identified the image

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Speaker 1: that they have, they suspect that it is her remains.

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Speaker 1: This goes to things like an abuse of a corpse.

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Speaker 1: And one more chilling thing about this is that there

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Speaker 1: were her remains that were actually found labeled, according to

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Speaker 1: the police, inside of a freezer, David, inside of a freezer.

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Speaker 2: It's the way you would mark Hamburger Meet if you

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Speaker 2: were freezing it and you wrote on the outside July

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Speaker 2: twenty fifth, so you'd know what day you put it

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Speaker 2: in there. That's how these were labeled in that freezer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and because of the blood evidence that they were

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Speaker 1: able to find relative to this, they were able to

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Speaker 1: get a specific scientific idea on Cassidy. I would imagine

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Speaker 1: that this was matched through DNA. You could certainly do

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Speaker 1: it at a rudimentary level with blood typing determined if

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Speaker 1: you know what her blood type is. But you know

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Speaker 1: you're going to extend it further than that.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you a question, because when you

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Speaker 2: get to this point where you're talking about if this

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Speaker 2: goes to trial, you can prove that these body parts

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Speaker 2: are what is left is cassidy rainwater. You can prove

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Speaker 2: that with DNA. But as a juror, don't I need

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Speaker 2: to know what happened? Don't I need to know? Just

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Speaker 2: seeing a picture that could be photoshopped is one thing.

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Speaker 2: Seeing the victim here nude, partially nude inside a cage.

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Speaker 2: As a juror, I've got to know how did it

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Speaker 2: get from there to a body part in a freezer? So,

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Speaker 2: as the forensic guy, can you tell me that? Can

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Speaker 2: you fill in the blanks based on just having the

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Speaker 2: body parts and what you can assume or presume happened.

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Speaker 1: It's very difficult because you don't know what status that

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Speaker 1: those remains pass through after death or even in those

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Speaker 1: moments leading up to death. Because if a body has

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Speaker 1: been now keep in mind they've already validated this by

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Speaker 1: saying that there is an image of her having been

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Speaker 1: eviscerated and she's tied to a gantry crane her remains.

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Speaker 1: Following that, after the evisceration has taken place, what happened

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Speaker 1: to her organs? Okay, and we have to ask that question,

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Speaker 1: what happened to her organs? And then where her remains butchered? Well,

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Speaker 1: if they were butchered, which if we followed this line

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Speaker 1: of logic where they're treating her remains as if you

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Speaker 1: would an animal carcass, what was the purpose of the butchering? Well,

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Speaker 1: if you're retaining butchered remains, it would stand a reason

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Speaker 1: you want to preserve them, you're labeling them. It's not

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Speaker 1: too far down the road, I think intellectually at least

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Speaker 1: to begin to think about is this a case of cannibalism?

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure that that's been entertained by the investigators.

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Speaker 1: And there has been a dive that they've gone into

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Speaker 1: because they did find skeletal remains at the scene which

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Speaker 1: they have positively identified as Cassidy's remains. So what do

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Speaker 1: we look for relative to that bit of information. Well,

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Speaker 1: you can't necessarily say that she was shot. You can't

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Speaker 1: say that she was stabbed, You certainly can't say that

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Speaker 1: she was suffocated in some way with any definition unless

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Speaker 1: you actually have they photographed a lot of things here.

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Speaker 1: What if they find more photographs which demonstrate her death

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Speaker 1: being brought about where they're actually videotaping or imaging all

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Speaker 1: of these steps, Because all we know right now we

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Speaker 1: have her in a cage that was documented, and then

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Speaker 1: we have these eviscerated remain. So what about the end

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Speaker 1: between those moments leading up to her death? Is there

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Speaker 1: any evidence that some method was utilized to bring about

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Speaker 1: her death that we no longer have evidence of? Because

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Speaker 1: when you talk about butchering of remains, one of the

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Speaker 1: things that we look for and understand this when you

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Speaker 1: work at a medical examiner's office, and this is something

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Speaker 1: that people are probably not even aware of. Did you know, Dave,

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Speaker 1: that we will randomly have that will come off of

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Speaker 1: the street and they'll have a bone in their hand

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Speaker 1: and they'll say, first off, we found this large bone

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Speaker 1: on our property and we want to know what is it.

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Speaker 1: What they're asking is is this a human remain that

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Speaker 1: I found on my property? Well, you begin to kind

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Speaker 1: of examine the remain, and most of the time when

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Speaker 1: people show up with some type of skeletal remain, and

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Speaker 1: particularly if it's large, you can say, well, this is

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Speaker 1: some type of hog, or it's bovine, it's a beef bone,

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Speaker 1: and we'll look for what to referred to as butchering

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Speaker 1: marks on the bone and you can see where a

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Speaker 1: sharp force has been used in order to render the

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Speaker 1: remains down to a manageable size. If you're talking about

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Speaker 1: like particularly when it comes to pigs for instance, and

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Speaker 1: they're butchered, you look for spiral markings on the ends

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Speaker 1: of the bones where they've been cut through, and you

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Speaker 1: get that the spiral saw that they use to cut

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Speaker 1: it down. You'll see these kind of elliptical marks on

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Speaker 1: the end of the bones. So we began to look

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Speaker 1: for those kinds of evidences. Well, if you've got perpetrators

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Speaker 1: that might have a history of butchering animals, what type

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Speaker 1: of skill set do they have, what level of skill

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Speaker 1: do they have things like a bandsaw that they have

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Speaker 1: access to. Is there evidence at the scene that if

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Speaker 1: they do have instruments like this, do you have DNA

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Speaker 1: other than an animal you have perhaps human DNA found

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Speaker 1: on the same tools that they would butcher a deer

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Speaker 1: with or maybe a hog, and that's going to be important.

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Speaker 1: That's why everything at a scene like this has to

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Speaker 1: be collected and examined very very thoroughly. And then the

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Speaker 1: skeletal remains that you have left behind. If you believe

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Speaker 1: that this is a case of that perhaps cannibalism was involved,

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Speaker 1: you're going to look for a couple of things. First off,

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Speaker 1: though they are human remains where they butchered in a

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Speaker 1: manner in which they were processed for consumption, the way

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Speaker 1: that you would prepare roast, for instance, if you're a

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Speaker 1: local butcher. Also, on bone, one of the things that

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Speaker 1: we look for our animal activity, and you can find

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Speaker 1: teeth marks on bone, and you find this often with

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Speaker 1: discarded animal remains, where you can actually see these kind

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Speaker 1: of straded marks that are left behind by teeth. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you know this, but humans leave those

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Speaker 1: marks as well. If they have bone and they have

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Speaker 1: chewed on it, for instance, you'll see those kinds of

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Speaker 1: marks that can be at least in a very broad

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Speaker 1: sense identified, These might be consistent with the scraping of

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Speaker 1: human teeth on a bone. So those are all the

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Speaker 1: things that have to be taken into consideration with this,

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Speaker 1: And the reason we're thinking about this is, for what

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Speaker 1: other reason would you be preserving a human remain, particularly

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Speaker 1: in the manner in which you would preserve an animal

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Speaker 1: remain that you were going to be setting aside for consumption,

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Speaker 1: unless perhaps you're thinking of some way to dispose of

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Speaker 1: the human remains so as not to draw attention to yourself,

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Speaker 1: parceling out the remains, and you're going to distribute them

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Speaker 1: in various locations. Well, if that's the case, why were

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Speaker 1: there remains found at the same property that were not retained,

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00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: that were, as far as we know right now, skeletal

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Speaker 1: remains that have been tied back to this young lady.

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Speaker 1: So there's I think that there's very big questions that

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Speaker 1: are going to be asked, certainly in court when this case,

431
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: if it does it finally does go to trial.

432
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: There's the one part about what you just said kind

433
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 2: of it proks my ears a little bit here, buddy.

434
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 2: You said, preparing to get rid of these somehow yet

435
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 2: we know they found something in the freezer labeled July

436
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 2: twenty fifth, which I'm based on what we know, that's

437
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: probably the day or real close to the day in

438
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: which Cassidy Rainwater was murdered and or cut up. Forensically speaking,

439
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 2: can you determine if this was a first time effort

440
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 2: by the individual or if this is something that had

441
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 2: been done before. And the reason I asked that is,

442
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: we know we have two men, James Phillips and Timothy Norton.

443
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: James Phillips who Cassid he was staying with in his

444
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: rented house. He called Timothy Norton and said, come here,

445
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 2: I need you to help me hold this person in place,

446
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 2: restrain her. And Norton restrained her for a long period

447
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: of time for Phelips to do whatever it is he's

448
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 2: going to do. And I can say that because Phelps

449
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: has taken an offered plea in this case, this doesn't

450
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 2: sound like the first time these two have done this.

451
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: What I can't speak to. I think in a case

452
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: of dismemberment like this, one of the things we look

453
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: for is the level of skill. All right, there's several

454
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: things that you look for. First off, at the scene.

455
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: Do you have tools at the scene that would easily

456
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: facilitate the dismemberment of animal remains or human remains? Okay,

457
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: that's the first thing you're going to check off then,

458
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,959
Speaker 1: and this is important too. I think folks might not

459
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: think about this. If you have let's say that they

460
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: have been butchering deer or maybe they've got hogs that

461
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: they butcher, do you have evidence of that at the scene,

462
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: and what was the level of skill that was applied

463
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: during that practice and by extension, the remains that you

464
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: recover that turn out to be human remains. What level

465
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 1: of skill is involved? How do we measure that? Well,

466
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: if you're using, say, for instance, a hacksaway in order

467
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: to dismember or remain, are you going to the shaft

468
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: of the bone in order to facilitate this or are

469
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: you going to a joint which would be more easily

470
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: facilitated in order to kind of break down the body

471
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: into base elements where you're removing parts like this. Somebody

472
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: that has no level of skill, first off, they think

473
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: that they're going to be able to take a saw

474
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: and just saw through soft tissue. The saw is not

475
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: used until the very end. You have to get through

476
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: the soft tissue. What do you use to do that? Well,

477
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: you have to use a sharp instrument, and I don't

478
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: mean saw teeth. You would use classically a butcher's knife,

479
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,479
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, are a filet knife. You

480
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,719
Speaker 1: look to the level of skill of the person that

481
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: is wielding these instruments. Is there evidence in their past

482
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: that they have done this sort of thing. If you're

483
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: an investigator and you're going to go talk to some

484
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: of the principles involved in the case or some of

485
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: the peripherals rather that know these individuals, one of the

486
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: first questions you would ask is, are these guys deer hunters?

487
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: Do they raise hogs or cattle? Have you ever known

488
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,719
Speaker 1: them to butcher their own food? Do you know if

489
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: they ever work, for instance, at a slaughterhouse, which obviously

490
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: that would give them access to tools that would give

491
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: them access to the knowledge that's required, because it's like

492
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: working on an assembly line. For those of you that

493
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: have never been to slaughterhouse, it's that way. You're processing

494
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: a lot of animals over that period of time. And

495
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: we have places out here in the rural South we

496
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: call deer coolers, and the signs pop up every year

497
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: during deer season, and deer coolers are actually it's a

498
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: term that's used for individuals that have businesses set up

499
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: that if you go out and you kill a deer.

500
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: You don't butcher it yourself. You take it to the

501
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: deer cooler and the person there will actually process the

502
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: animal for you, and they'll make it out anyway you

503
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: want it made out. They'll cut it into steaks, they'll

504
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: cut it into roast, they'll grind it up to make

505
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 1: ground meat for you. They have very specific abilities in

506
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: order to do all this, So you're looking at the

507
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: level of skill. And this goes again more broadly or

508
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: more specifically to the area in which this is done.

509
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: Is there a set aside area. How long had this

510
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: individual possessed this gantry crane. Is it something that they

511
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: recently bought or is it something that you know they've

512
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: had for a couple of years. And it's in the

513
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: same spot. Because if you're using a gantry crane and

514
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: you quote unquote bleed an animal, well, when you open

515
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: the animal up, it's going to be a huge dump

516
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: of tissue, specifically blood. And then on top of the blood,

517
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: when you eviscerate an animal, as you begin to dissect

518
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: out the inside of the animal, those organs actually fall

519
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,479
Speaker 1: to the ground. Well, that's kind of this contact trace

520
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: element that comes into play with the soil or the

521
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: underlying surface beneath the gantry crane, so you'll have multiple

522
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: DNA from multiple animals. If you're using this gantry crane

523
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: to butcher animals in this location, that makes it all

524
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: the more difficult if you introduce human DNA into this environment.

525
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: It's a wail of an undertaking here from an investigative standpoint,

526
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: because how do you kind of suss out the animal

527
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: DNA if it's say, for instance, it's a deer that

528
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: has been butchered here from human DNA, and that's something

529
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: that investigators have to look at it very carefully.

530
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: James Phelps, who was charged with first degree murder in

531
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 2: the death of Cassidy Rainwater, has entered an Alfred plea

532
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: in the case. We mentioned this earlier, and Alfred plea

533
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: does not admit guilt, but acknowledges that prosecutors have enough

534
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: evidence to convict if the case had gone to trial. Meanwhile,

535
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: Timothy Norton has pled not guilty, has not taken an

536
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: Alford plea, and he'll be going to trial later.

537
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks