1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Worst Year Ever, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: Radio Together Everything, So don't don't hey, Cool cats and 3 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: kitties Welcome back to Worst. Silly salamanders and slithery snakes 4 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: nailed it perfect, Wild whales and Willie Wallis HM. Welcome 5 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: back to the Worst Year Ever, made worse by this 6 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: fun intro. If you listen to the episode earlier this week, 7 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: you already know that today we have an interview. Yes, 8 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: it is an interview with a couple of activists with 9 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: a group called No Detention Centers in Michigan. UM, and 10 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: this ties in with you know, what we've been talking 11 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: about about the coronavirus and in prisons and why maybe 12 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: prisons are bad. Also, it ties in with a lot 13 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: of stuff, so we hope you enjoy it. So JR. Brandon, 14 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: you all want to uh, you all want to kick 15 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: us off by kind of introducing yourselves by name and 16 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: in your organization? Sure? Uh, yeah, Brandon, if you want 17 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: to go first. Hi, I'm Brandon Johnson. I'm here with 18 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: No Detention Centers in Michigan, and my name is j R. Martin. 19 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and I'm also with 20 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: No Detention centers in Michigan. And the like purpose of 21 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: your organization is is kind of pretty obvious in the name, 22 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: but I think people don't actually know much about the 23 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: specific sort of detention center. Um, and you know, the 24 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: term that's used a lot to describe what you're specifically 25 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: protesting against, our our shadow prisons, and these are essentially 26 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: areas where the government detains undocumented immigrants. And and because 27 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: they're kind of seen as temporary detention, thisities they don't 28 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: have to abide by the same rules and provide the 29 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: same sort of quality of life things that a normal 30 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: prison would be required. Is that more or less kind 31 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: of what what how you describe it? Yeah? And they 32 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: also kind of are I mean, as kind of the 33 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: name suggests, they're very good at hiding what they're doing, 34 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: so of course they wentever forward say what you just said, 35 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: but they're very good at keeping everything they do kind 36 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: of under wraps. Yeah, And I would just add on 37 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: to that. I think, uh, one issue that we have 38 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: been just trying to communicate about as much as we 39 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: can over the last year is that there is a 40 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: distinction between ice detention centers and these privately contracted federal 41 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: immigrant only prisons or shadow prisons. So even though you 42 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: know the name of the group is no detention centers 43 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: in Michigan, I think are the work that we were 44 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: engaged in shifted somewhat because the coalition was formed early 45 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: last year, like in the in the first couple of 46 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: months of en in response to UH proposed plan for 47 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: a new immigrant attention center to be run for ice 48 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: by this private company I see a immigration center in America, 49 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: and that was a proposal for Ionia, and and so 50 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: we the the coalition started to oppose those plans, which 51 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: were shut down successfully within a couple of months. But 52 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: then it was just after we heard that, and it 53 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: was just as we were sort of celebrating that news 54 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: that we heard that the Geo Group would be reopening 55 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: this private prison in in Baldwin, Michigan. So we that 56 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: I think a big part of the work that we 57 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: were doing for a while UH in you know, especially 58 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: before this crisis that we're in now started, A big 59 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: part of of what we were doing was just to 60 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: learn as much as we could about the particular facilities 61 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: and also try to against the sort of propaganda that 62 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: was coming from who supported this prison in Baldwin. And 63 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: from the GEO group, and you know, from from people 64 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: who would say like, well, this prison has nothing to 65 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: do with ice, and these protesters are confused because they 66 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: think it's an ice detention center, right, So trying to 67 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: make it clear to people like first that we know 68 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: it is a federal prison for people who've been convicted 69 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: of so called federal crimes, and that we are here 70 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: to support those people, right, and that we see this 71 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: as part of a broad abolitionist struggle that incorporates the 72 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: fight against ice and against attention centers, and against these 73 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: prisons and against public prisons. You know, all these struggles 74 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: are connected. And yeah, I mean that that is kind 75 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: of interesting to me because as you say, your your prison, 76 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: your prison abolitionists, um, but your your your organization is 77 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: focused on a very specific, you know, kind of prison. 78 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: Why why this focus for you? Like, because obviously you 79 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: had you know, there's a number of different organizations that 80 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: are kind of prison abolitionist organizations in the United States. 81 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: Why did you pick this fight in particular? So at 82 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: least see, at least for me, we are a coalition. 83 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: So obviously everyone's got their own reasons, but I see 84 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,799 Speaker 1: it as the most like militant form of the prison 85 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: industrial complex is to have private prisons run by a 86 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: company for US non citizens. That's like the most aggressive, 87 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: the most like kind of sketchy way to do it. 88 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: And I feel like you start there and then move inward. 89 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: That's kind of how I think about it at least. Yeah, 90 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: and I think it's also I would agree, and I 91 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: would also just add that I think for many people 92 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: around the state, there was just a feeling that with 93 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: the current administration there was a need to respond to 94 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: some specific steps that were taken and you know, specific 95 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: attempts to expand this this particular network of incarceration. So 96 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 1: these like for example, these you know, these private the 97 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: federal prisons, we're going to be phased out during like 98 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: there were there was a plan during the Obama administration 99 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: to effectively end these contracts, which of course was celebrated 100 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: as a as a major victory by many people around 101 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: the country, and then almost immediately when the Trump administration 102 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: came into power, that was reversed. And so, uh, there 103 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: are facilities that were scheduled to shut down that are 104 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: now remaining open, or places like the one in Baldwin 105 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: that you know two years ago or three years ago, 106 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: UM or four years ago, would there there would have 107 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: been no possibility or wouldn't have occurred to anybody that 108 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: they could have opened in this particular way. Um. And 109 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 1: this is a facility that has opened and closed multiple times, 110 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: and that's something that maybe we can talk more about. 111 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: But uh, you know, so, I think it was clear 112 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: to people that there was a need to engage in 113 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: a targeted struggle against this particular kind of expansion of 114 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: the the Carsonal State. It's also worth I think knowing 115 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: that of like the shadow prisons, this is the only 116 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: one in the Midwest as of right now. So it's 117 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: kind of like, if you learn you can make profits 118 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: off of it, there's gonna be more, so you want 119 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: to stop it before the profits start rolling in. Yeah, 120 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: it's really interesting hearing kind of strategically how you look 121 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: at this. And you've been obviously very successful, um, at 122 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: least you know, comparatively so far. Like you you were 123 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: successful in getting Governor Whitmer to block a contract with 124 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: Immigration Centers of America and stop the construction of that 125 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: center in Ionia. Um. But uh, and I guess one 126 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: of the things that I want to ask about that 127 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: is it's very difficult to get I think kind of 128 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: mainstream American voters, adults, I guess you'd say to to 129 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: care about prisoners, um like that's that's a tough sell 130 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: for a lot of people in this country, which is 131 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: part of why I think it's been very difficult getting 132 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: much traction and stories about like the corre and virus 133 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: spreading in American prisons. There's just not a huge amount 134 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: of inherent sympathy towards people who have been convicted of 135 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: a crime among a lot of people in this country. 136 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: You've been successful at getting a lot of folks angry 137 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: on behalf of these people um and and against you know, 138 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: these these detention centers. How have you gone about trying 139 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: to spread this message in a way that actually um 140 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: catches on with people? Well, I guess one there are 141 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: there are a couple of points that I would want 142 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 1: to make there. The first is that you know, unfortunately 143 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: it was there has been a very recent announcement that 144 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: we are struggling to keep up with and respond to 145 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: right now, which I don't know if if Brandon already 146 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: mentioned this before I came on, or if you were 147 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: you had heard this already, but there there's actually a 148 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: new proposal for a detention center in Ionia. Yeah, right, so, 149 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: and that that's just something we've just been aware of 150 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: in the in the lot a couple of weeks so, 151 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: and and you know, unfortunately it's a it's a different situation. 152 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: It's uh, it's private land, so there's not the same 153 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: you know that there's not exactly the same way to 154 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: to have it shut down. But will you know, we'll 155 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: we'll check out everything that can be done to fight 156 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: against that. And with respect to that question about sympathy 157 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: for incarcerated people, I think that's a really it's a 158 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: really important question, and I think, um, there are I 159 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: think we've been starting to see that the COVID nineteen 160 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: emergency has just been a reminder for so many people 161 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: that prisons and jails and detention centers are just not 162 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: safe for anybody, and we're never safe and have always 163 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: been an emergency. And so I think as people continue 164 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: to hear about all the suffering and all and and 165 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: all the people who are affected, I think for at 166 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: least some people, there has been a kind of growing 167 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: awareness of like the particular violence that in cards ready 168 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: people are are subjected to and so I think this, 169 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: you know what we're We're still going to see how this, 170 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: how this plays out and and what the you know, 171 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: long term effects are. But I think this has been 172 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: something like a wake up call for many people about 173 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: what has always been a crisis. Yeah, And I think, um, 174 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: what's been we've been able to do recently is connect 175 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: with prisoners inside you know, the North Lake Correctional Facility 176 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: where this the prison is, uh and kind of here 177 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: like have some recorded calls that we've published on our website, 178 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: and they seem pretty powerful, like they're talking about what 179 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: they're going through. And I think that hearing like a 180 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: voice attached, it's not just like a group of people, 181 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: it's like a person with a soul in mind, and 182 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: all that stuff kind of carries that out to hope. 183 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: It does absolutely, And we've been in touch, you know, 184 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: increasingly over the last few weeks with family members too, 185 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: And I think if you know it maybe, I think absolutely, 186 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: as Brendon said, like hearing somebody's voice and hearing them 187 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: talk about what they are experiencing makes it very difficult 188 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: to pretend that this is not you know, a person, right, 189 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: And I think people understand when we think about family 190 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: members too, that we I mean, I think incarceration effects 191 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: so many people's lives and so many direct and indirect ways. 192 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: You know. I think people when we when you really 193 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 1: get down to it, you know, they're everybody has some 194 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: degree of experience or or know somebody who knows somebody, right, 195 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: And so I think, uh, when people hear those those 196 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 1: those voices and those stories directly, and when they hear 197 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: more about family members, like particularly in the situation that 198 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: we're in where that's so difficult to get information and 199 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: family members and loved ones are just desperately looking for, 200 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: you know, for details on what's happening involved Win. I 201 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 1: think people people you know, have to have to see that. 202 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: That's that's real and and and really painful. Can we 203 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit about what's happening there? 204 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: I mean you just now you mentioned this inability to 205 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: get information in details, and I'd like to hear a 206 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: bit more about that. Sure. So it is a Federal 207 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: Bureau of Prisons facility, so it's it's operated under the 208 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: authority of the b OP and the Bureau of Prisons 209 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: has a so called Coronavirus Resource page with with a 210 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: with a map that like an online map that's meant 211 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: to be updated every day with information on people who 212 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: have tested positive staff members and in carcerated people at 213 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: facilities around the country. And because this is a privately 214 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: contracted facility and like as a perfect illustration of as 215 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: you said earlier, the way it's called a shadow prison 216 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: because it's because of the you know, because of the 217 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: nature of this facility, it does not appear on that map. UM. 218 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: So that we've we've heard from multiple family members who 219 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: have been really confused, right and really alarmed by this 220 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: because they are told that this is that that that 221 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: this information should be available. And especially also since there 222 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: are we know that there are people who have been 223 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: recently transferred to this prison involved win who have experienced 224 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: at several other federal facilities, and like one thing we've 225 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: consistently heard from them is that this this place is 226 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: the worst that they've ever um. But we also know 227 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: that that you know, even even considering the the lack 228 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: of transparency and the appalling conditions that that I'm sure 229 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: are prevalent throughout the system, right, we like I we 230 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: know that that people are had expectations that their loved ones, Uh, 231 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: you know who who had previously been in other facilities, 232 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: that that they would be able to sort of get 233 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: access to some of the same information getting and and 234 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: that's now, that's how impossible. And from what I understand, 235 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: there are known cases there, at least among the staff, 236 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: but they are not admitting that there are actual cases. 237 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: And that's contrary to what prisoners themselves are saying on 238 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: the scene there. Right. So, the GEO Group, the company 239 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: that owns and manages this place, they have been releasing 240 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: information on staff members who have tested positive. And the 241 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: last that we heard that I'm aware of was in 242 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: an article in the Detroit Free Press that was published yesterday, 243 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: and that article had the number of staff members who 244 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: tested positive at fourteen, which was an increase of five 245 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: since last um when when there was another piece that 246 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: we've seen that had a number. So the GEO Group 247 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: has has been for a while releasing those numbers. They've 248 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: known about staff members testing positive since the first week 249 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: of April. They have consistently refused to release any information 250 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: on incarcerated people who have tested positive. So the only 251 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: way we knew that there were incarcerated people who had 252 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: tested positive for the virus was that a reporter at 253 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: the Michigan Advance who has done a lot of really 254 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: great and and you know, helpful work. Um, she was 255 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: in touch with the Michigan Department of Health and Human 256 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: Services and he had heard on April from them that 257 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: nine incarcerated people at North Lake had tested positive because 258 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: the GEO Group had reported those numbers to the Health Department, 259 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: even if they hadn't shared them with anyone else. And 260 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: since then, the Health Department has said that they don't 261 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: have the staff or they don't have the capacity to 262 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: keep up with this situation. So they they've said that 263 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: all questions about prisoners who have the virus, who are 264 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: have tested positive for the virus should be referred to 265 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: the facility itself, which, of course, you know, the way 266 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: things are now means that those questions aren't going to 267 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: get answered. So there was one source that we had 268 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: or you know, confirmed up to date information on incrtrated 269 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: people at Northlake to the tested positive, which we no 270 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: longer have. Oh it's so upsetting. Yeah, I think it's 271 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: worth bringing up to that, Like, this is all happening 272 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: in Michigan, which is currently not doing super great in 273 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: terms of the national coronavirus situation, and you know, I 274 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: think we hear a lot is essential workers. Essential workers 275 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: are the only one that should be out. And it 276 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: makes you wonder, like, well, is having this prison run 277 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: by a company something essential? Like is that are we 278 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: glad that we spend a lot of effort making this 279 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: happen so that now when the pandemic pandemic is happening, 280 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: we're all dealing with that, right, Well, everything down, down, down, 281 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: So I mean, y'all are in Michigan and I assume 282 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: some of our listeners are, but a lot aren't. So 283 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: one thing I'm kind of curious about, like if we're 284 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: trying to because I think it's important. I think what 285 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: y'all are doing is important. I also think it's important 286 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: to push for a larger and kind of more expansive 287 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: nationwide prison abolition movement. If we have people sitting here, 288 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: you know, doing some googling as they listening to as 289 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: they listen to this, trying to figure out what in 290 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: their own state, uh like what kind of detention centers 291 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: are open in their own state, or if they're they're 292 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: wanting to just push against private prisons in general, Like 293 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: do you have any recommendations for how folks can kind 294 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: of get into this sort of activism because it's it's tough, 295 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, it relies a lot on Like one of 296 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: the things that's been difficult about getting stories from inside 297 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: prisons during this outbreakout is that they have so much 298 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: control over the people in them, so it's it's hard 299 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: to to reach people inside. It's hard to like form 300 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 1: those kind of bonds of solidarity and get their stories out. Like, 301 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: how would you recommend folks who are interested in, you know, 302 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: contributing to this movement gets started, you know, especially if 303 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,959 Speaker 1: they're you know, not in Michigan and can't um actually 304 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: help you all directly. So I guess the first my 305 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: opinions first start local, look and see what prisons are 306 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: around you, what organizations are around you. Like I found 307 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: this group just online one day, just happenstance, which is 308 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: nice after I had moved to Michigan. I grew up here, 309 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 1: but I went away and came back and then found 310 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: this group by chance. Um, but it's worth doing. They're like, okay, 311 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: you can go on online and the biggest private pristic 312 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: companies are the Geo Group and course if you can 313 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: read about them find out if they're around you. Um, 314 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: the Industrial Workers of the World has an organizing committee 315 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: called the Incarcerated Workers Organizing Committee, and they have chapters. 316 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not like part of the organizing committee, 317 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: but they have a you know, a website and they 318 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: can direct your resources. That's another way, especially since we 319 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: can't really go outside. I feel like the internet and 320 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: like finding local groups is the best way to do 321 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 1: it in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, I am also 322 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: not officially a member of the UH in cars rated 323 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: work as organizing committee, but I have so much love 324 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: for eye Walk and all the you know, the the 325 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: organizing work that i've that is I've seen them do 326 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: and people who are UM involved in that. So I 327 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: would I would agree that that's a wonderful resource. And 328 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: I would also just say that in terms of study 329 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: and and context and learning about abolition, there's so much 330 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: history and and so many people who are like every day, 331 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: uh making this information and these struggles, you know, accessible 332 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: to two people. So like just yesterday there was an 333 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:03,959 Speaker 1: interview on Democracy Now with Wilson Gilmore who talked, UH 334 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: about the you know that the abolitionis struggle in California, 335 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: and around the country and specifically responding to to COVID 336 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: nineteen and in abobles context. Um, there are people like 337 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: Miriam Caba who is prison prison culture is her handle 338 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: on Twitter, and just like the amount of work that 339 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: she has consistently done, like I I you know, based 340 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: out of Chicago for a while. She may live somewhere 341 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: else now, but just you know, the the amount of 342 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: knowledge that like she and other abolitionists share online every day, 343 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: and it is just like really really amazing. Also, churches, Um, 344 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: not all of them obviously, but in our group, we 345 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: have a lot of churches who are against this prison 346 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 1: and so you never know, you might find some and 347 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: that's a good resource. I think that's a good way 348 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: to connect totally. I think, uh yeah, this whole conversation 349 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: is a very interesting I think it might be good 350 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: to spend a moment just talking about uh, abolishing prisons 351 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: in general. I think that some people might not know 352 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: that much about it. Uh you know, the idea of 353 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: we look to other countries like Sweden, who has a 354 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: really excellent prison, real prison situation that's based in rehabilitation 355 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: and everything like that, is that what your goals are? Like, 356 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: I think I would see a major goal as just 357 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: to reframe the conversation about incarceration and about punishment, about 358 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: responding to violence. Um and just too two you know, 359 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: acknowledge this, uh, this, this this understanding, and continue a 360 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: conversation about how prisons do not solve these problems of 361 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: violence days Like, as Angelo Davis said, like, prisons do 362 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: not disappear social problems, they disappear human beings. Um So, 363 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: you know, particularly particularly like in the US, there's just 364 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: such a tendency to um imagine that that incarceration is 365 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: the answer or that um as you know, as as 366 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: one of you was saying earlier, like that that we 367 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: don't have to worry about people right once they are 368 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: in prison, or that like if if somebody is incarcerated, 369 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 1: then they deserve whatever they get, or you know, that 370 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: that that that the problem is solved. And I think 371 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: it's just you know, so clear in so many ways 372 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: that that this is not the solution, and then that 373 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: not solved by by locking people away. But I was 374 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: just gonna say, I'm just always blown away by you know, 375 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: it's very easy to forget about prisons in our day 376 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 1: to day life. It's very easy to be distracted by 377 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: everything else that's going on. But when you stop and 378 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: look at it and you think about it. Uh. And 379 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: you know, just from my own personal experience knowing people 380 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: that have been in and out of the prison system, 381 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: how little it does to help them. With the effect 382 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: that it has on families that lose people to the 383 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: prison system, uh, what that is for their income. How 384 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: being in a prison environment often exascerbates problems. It it 385 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: leads to, you know, more violence. There's all sorts of 386 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: stuff that that people just don't have the time to 387 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: think about and and it frustrates me. Um in this 388 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: country at least, I know, we have this like huge 389 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 1: amount of prison facilities and huge amount of money that's involved. 390 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: And it's kind of one of those situations where you know, 391 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: if you have a nail, how's it go if you 392 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: if you have a hammer, every problem is a nail. 393 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: And so, you know, you read about how the mentally 394 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: ill you're treated, you read about how minor crimes are treated. 395 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: You meant, you read about how all these things are treated. 396 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: And of course, if you have a large amount of prisons, 397 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: that's where people are going to get get put and 398 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: that's I think the thing people should think about is that, 399 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: you know, if we expand our prisons, the prisons we 400 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: build today might hold you tomorrow or your loved ones, 401 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: you know, because if they're there, they're going to get used, 402 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: especially if they're run by corporations who are trying to 403 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: make money. We end in some cases they're required to 404 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: be used. Like that was a big thing, not just 405 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: in Arizona, but I remember it specifically in Arizona, where 406 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: like they had a contract with the state to keep 407 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: the prisons at a minimum level of occupancy. Um. Yeah, 408 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that's hardest you 409 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: can you can get I think almost anyone, at least 410 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: anybody who's kind of liberal on the left and even 411 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: a lot of conservatives on board with the idea that 412 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: like prison reform is necessary. But once you start talking 413 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: about prison abolition, um, I think like the first questions 414 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: in people's minds is they're going to imagine, you know, Okay, well, 415 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: then you're talking about letting serial killers out on the street. 416 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: Then you're talking about letting letting out murders and all 417 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: these violent people, and like what about all these people 418 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: that that we believe need to be in prison? Um? 419 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 1: You know, there's a couple of tactics I can think 420 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: of for sort of dealing with that off the bat. 421 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: Number one, to just emphasize how rare those kind of 422 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: crimes are and how often incarceration actually contributes to people 423 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 1: who weren't violent criminals becoming violent criminals. Um. But I'm 424 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: curious how you know, and since this is something y'all 425 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,239 Speaker 1: spent a lot more time thinking about and doing than 426 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: I do, um, how you approach answering that question for people. 427 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,959 Speaker 1: So this is just kind of how I personally view it. 428 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: And I don't know if even JR. Would agree with me, 429 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: or if you know, everyone would, But I see there 430 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: to be a qualitative difference between a prison that houses 431 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: the few amount of people who might be like serial 432 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: killers or you know, that kind of example you were 433 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: giving versus what we have now. And I almost like 434 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: I'm getting a little wishing watching here. But I almost 435 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't call that a prison like it is but so 436 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,239 Speaker 1: functionally different from the system we have now that I 437 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: don't consider them kind of the same institution. And I 438 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: don't know if that's like academically correct, but that's kind 439 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: of how I think about it. If you look at 440 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: the majority of the incarcerated population. They're not really fitting 441 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: that mold, and so I kind of think, like, maybe 442 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: we need entirely different institutions set up. If you need 443 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: that kind of institution, I would just add to that. 444 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 1: Um you know there, I'm thinking of a really great comic, 445 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: like there's a there's a there's a sort of abolitionist 446 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: there's an introduction to abolitionist politics with Miriam Cobba. That's 447 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: in the form of a comic and I don't have 448 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: an in front of me right now. But she talks 449 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: about how she has been confronted with this question so 450 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: many times, right, this question like well, what do we 451 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: do then with the so called violent people? Or how 452 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: you know, how what like what if we if there 453 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: are no prisons, then then what do we do with 454 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: those people? And she talks about how she has stopped 455 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: responding to that question or or just like the importance 456 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: of reframing that question. And I know there are there 457 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: are other abolitionists too who talked about that. You say, 458 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: like where er is that violence happening now? Right? Or 459 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: like people who commit violence? Do we actually believe it? 460 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: Is it actually our understanding that prisons and that violence 461 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: when we know that you know, people who have committed 462 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: sexual assault are the president, right or they're like on 463 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, or they're everywhere, and that and that 464 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: that violence is getting not you know, it's not it's 465 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: not getting uh, it's it's it's not a problem that's 466 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: being solved. It's simply being relocated when people are put 467 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: in prison, and it's getting intensified. Right, And like, you 468 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: cannot talk about serial killers or or sexual violence, I 469 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: think without also talking about the serious like the the 470 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: mass death and the mass sexual violence that prisons themselves 471 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: are responsible for. Like, um, is a serial killer in 472 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: the US prison prison system is a factory for sexual 473 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: violence and other forms of violence, you know. And I 474 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: think reframing the question in that way is a really 475 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 1: crucial step for for like thinking about how an abolitionist 476 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: response is, you know, I would say in so many 477 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: ways like the only response or the only solution to 478 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 1: to these questerns. Yeah, I think that's very intelligent, particularly 479 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: because I mean, the thing you're fighting here is less 480 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: people's entrenched um ideas about what should happen in a 481 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: prison um and more people's entrenched and entrenched I think 482 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: by the media, particularly like fictional media. More than anything, 483 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: a trenched idea is about what crime is in this country. 484 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: I think in general the picture people have of of 485 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: crime in America is it might be the thing that 486 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: the average person is wrongest about, even including like climate 487 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: change into that ended at bunch just because of cop 488 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: dramas is kind of where I would lie a lot 489 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: of the blame um. But there there is one of 490 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: the things that strikes me as like the real Titanic 491 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: struggle here in terms of making progress on prison ebolition, 492 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: is is informing people properly, properly of what what violent 493 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: crime really looks like in the United States. And I 494 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: think you're right when you do have an accurate picture 495 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: of that, you realize that that prisons are factories for 496 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: creating the kind of crimes that people fear. I mean, 497 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,479 Speaker 1: you have people going there, let's say for ten years. 498 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: They're put into this prison system under the understanding that 499 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: then they will be released back into society because they've paid, 500 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: you know, serve their time. But they're being injected into 501 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: a system that is inherently violent that also probably has 502 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: has drawn access to drugs, to all sorts of different 503 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: things that they're supposed to be moving away from and 504 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: then they come back into society, and I feel like 505 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: there's a really compelling case to be made that that's, yeah, 506 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: increasing the violence in our society. We're not giving people 507 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: tools to survive in the real world. We're just reinforcing 508 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: what they already know or introducing people that aren't violent 509 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: into that world of violence, you know. And then I 510 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: think another thing we're fighting is that, you know, there's 511 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: ignorance about what crime is and also about what the 512 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: prison population, with the incarcerated population is dealing with. And 513 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: that actually matches up with a lot of geo groups 514 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: like messaging and propaganda is you know, it's don't look here, 515 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: We're doing fine. We have this great new innovative system 516 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: of innovatives, of fun word they like to use. And 517 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: then you know, we get messages from the people inside. 518 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: When we put up on our website recently was oh, 519 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: there's a guy who's like coughing up something and they 520 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: just left him in his sell for five hours. And 521 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: you don't really hear that in the media. You don't 522 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: really hear that when you're talking about do I want 523 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: to keep this person in prison? Under my text dollar, Like, 524 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: is that how we want to spend our resources in life? Um? 525 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: And I don't think most Americans think about that because 526 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: prisons a way to take something, that is, they make 527 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: it not their problem and then don't think about it. 528 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: I think it up to us to kind of take responsibility. 529 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: Well or everything down, down down? Can we do one 530 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: more thing before we moved from the prison. I know 531 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: a lot of the people we've been talking to have 532 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: asked us to, like, say, what's been happening in the prison. 533 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: Can we just like give a narrative of what we heard? Yes? Please? Yeah. 534 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: So for a long time, we knew that more and 535 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: more people were coming into this prison in Baldwin. Uh 536 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: And and we were just looking for ways to to 537 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: get in touch with them and support them. And we were. 538 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: We first heard uh in early March from a relative 539 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: of somebody who had recently been transferred to the North 540 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: Lake Prison. Uh. She was very concerned for her relatives safety. Um. 541 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: She said that whenever she had talked to him on 542 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: the phone, Uh, not not that many times, but whenever 543 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: she had to his voice since he arrived in Michigan, 544 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: he just knew that something was wrong. And she had 545 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: not heard him speak like this before, and so we 546 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: sort of gradually got more details about this group of 547 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: ten to twelve predominantly black men in this prison who 548 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: had been rounded up and put in the special housing unit, 549 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: which is a restricted housing area that's cut off from 550 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: the general population. So they there. You know this that 551 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: there had been a sort of general climate of unrest 552 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: and violence inside this facility, and there was a particular 553 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: incident in early March where a one one prisoner was 554 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: was jumped by some others or there was a fight, um, 555 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: and none of the black men were actually involved in 556 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: that situation. But the warden's response was to basically round 557 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: up almost all the black people in the prison and 558 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: put them in the secure housing unit. And he told 559 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: them that this was supposedly for their own protection, but 560 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: they had not asked for protective custody. Um. You know, 561 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,959 Speaker 1: many of them had no idea what was going on. 562 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: They didn't know why they were being put there, why 563 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: the prison staff were coming into the kitchen and the 564 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: barbershop with their guns drawn and with mace to to 565 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: lock everybody down. And in addition to that, since being 566 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: put in the in that restricted it in that restricted unit, 567 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: they you know, they also had their privileges restricted or 568 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: like some of their ability to to use the commissary 569 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: and to to get on the phone and things like that, 570 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: those were restricted as if they were being punished for 571 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: something wrong, as if this had been like disciplinary confinement, 572 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: um so. And they they they have been there and 573 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: so this was this was a situation that that sort 574 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: of predated the COVID nineteen emergency. We we started hearing 575 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: about in early March, and they've been in that restricted 576 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: unit since then. They've gone on hunger strike two separate times, 577 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: um within the last month or or month and a half. 578 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: And they were demanding, you know, first of all, just 579 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: an explanation and a response to what they understand what 580 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: what they you know, very directly perceived to be racist 581 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: repression and just the fact that they're in this unit 582 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 1: in the first place, and also demanding, you know, increased 583 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: access to the to the shower, more phone time, that 584 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 1: our food. They've talked about how appallingly inadequate the food is, 585 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: and that's something that we've actually heard throughout the facility. 586 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: So it's it's bad in the in the secure housing unit, 587 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: it's bad throughout the prison. The food is just not good. Um. 588 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: But so they were demanding food better, better food as well, um, 589 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 1: and limited water excess if I jump in, they were 590 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: complained about that. If I remember, a lot of limited 591 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: water access, right, yeah, And that was actually that was 592 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: that was That was a tactic that the warden had 593 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: also used to retaliate against people who were on hunger strikes. 594 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: So the first time there was a strike, um, there 595 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 1: was one person, there was one participant in the strike, 596 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 1: the warden. Basically, the way the warden him to end 597 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: the strike and to start eating again was to restrict 598 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 1: the water access in his cell. And that was just 599 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: around the same time that the warden had learned that 600 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: there were cases of the virus in the prison. Right, 601 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: So at a moment when everybody is supposed to be 602 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 1: washing your hands as much as possible, the warden made 603 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: this active decision to restrict somebody's access to water. And 604 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 1: that that person also told us like even in addition 605 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: to that health concern, the main reason it was a 606 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: problem for him was that he's a practicing Muslim, and 607 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: so he needed more frequent access to water to be 608 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: able to engage in his religious practice and to bathe 609 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: before praying, UM. But what we know that she of 610 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: off the water was something that the warden also did, 611 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: not just for that person, but for other participants in 612 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: the second hunger strike. UM. And that was well after 613 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: there were confirmed cases of the virus again. So we 614 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: had been since we found out about this, doing as 615 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: much as we could to support those people who were 616 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: on a hunger strike and spread the word about it. 617 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: And I think it's because of a couple of articles 618 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: that were published about that hunger strike that people outside 619 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: you know, family members and others found out about our 620 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: group and found out about how they could reach out 621 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 1: to us. And so that was what sort of ultimately 622 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: led to us having more contact with people in the 623 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: general population. And it's and that and like that communication 624 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: has been getting has been continuing to grow in the 625 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: last couple of weeks, and it's been getting more and 626 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: more urgent right because of what's going on throughout the 627 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: prison with with COVID nineteen. Thank you for that. It's 628 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: pretty bleak. It is very bleak. And this is just 629 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: one one prison, you know. I mean you're hearing horrifying 630 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: stories everywhere. UM. The audio that you have recorded from 631 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: the calls because that's pretty um, pretty hard wrenching stuff. Um. Yeah, I, 632 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 1: as I mentioned, I do have a non prison question 633 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: that we could keep in or not. I'm just curious 634 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: for your thoughts. Um. Governor Whitmer was mentioned earlier, and 635 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: I'm just curious to know from citizens of that state too. 636 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,959 Speaker 1: I'm curious what you think about her because we're hearing 637 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: her name a lot. You know, she's being floated as 638 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: a potential VP, and I think it's fair to say 639 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: that a good amount of this country and our listeners 640 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: don't know that much about her pre coronavirus. Uh. And 641 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: it's easy for somebody to look good compared to Trump 642 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: right now, and I I just would value your insight 643 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: into her. Sure. Yeah, Well I can share something if 644 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 1: Brandon has a response as well. Uh yeah, I I 645 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: I appreciate that the non prison question. And I'm sorry 646 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: if that was you know, a very long digression before it, 647 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: But no, not at all. That's what you're here for. 648 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: I'm just curious while I have your attention. Yeah, well, definitely, 649 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: So I would say that my feelings about the governor 650 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: are really complicated, or that it's a it's a very 651 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: complex situation because it's very clear that there are fascists 652 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: and reactionaries in Michigan who are organizing and who are 653 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: taking advantage of this moment to grow their capacity and 654 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 1: to show up in public, right because they are not 655 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: embarrassed about showing up in public, and they're exploiting that 656 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 1: that opportunity to to to organize. And that's really scary 657 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: and something to fight, something for everybody to mobilize in 658 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: response to. And it is very clear that they are 659 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,919 Speaker 1: naming the governor and and you know, singling her out 660 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: in in very specific ways. And so I I think 661 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 1: it's important to respond to to you know, to to 662 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: to that organizing and to and just to shut it 663 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 1: down in whatever ways we can. I also am I 664 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: also think it's important to avoid uh a sort of 665 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: immediate response to that dynamic, which I think is really 666 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: tempting and very understandable, right to present the governor as 667 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: someone as as a as a you know, as a 668 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: sort of heroic opponent or or or or or someone 669 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: who is yeah, we're we're at this point in our 670 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 1: country where someone who like does a basic minimal level 671 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: of respond two of like of taking science seriously responding 672 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: to a virus is able to like people kind of 673 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,800 Speaker 1: can get on board with them without really thinking about like, okay, 674 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: but if if the comparison wasn't the guy who's in 675 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: charge of at all, like with this guy. Well, also, 676 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: we're in Michigan. Our last guy poison Flint's water, so like, yeah, 677 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: our bar is pretty low. So there's that. So you know, listeners, 678 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: just this should all be reinforcing, and you it's a 679 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: great time to get into politics. You can actually kill 680 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: a lot of people and still be doing better than 681 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: the folks before. So really, you know, anything goes now 682 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:43,919 Speaker 1: that might not be there the tagline. Yeah, I mean 683 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: so I think all of that is right, And I 684 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: think about about Governor Whitman, I would I would just say, 685 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: you know, like, like, who knows what it feels like 686 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: to be singled out by the President of the United 687 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: States right for criticism in the way that that that 688 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: she has, And I think that's a that's a real concern, 689 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: and I understand that that people would would have a 690 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 1: lot of sympathy for her on that. And I also 691 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: just know that there are people in Michigan who have 692 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: been begging the governor to take action and release people 693 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: from prison and and that has happened, you know, so 694 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,800 Speaker 1: I think, uh, it's it's a very complex thing to 695 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: to to deal with because there is much more that 696 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: she could have done, specifically on this issue of incarceration 697 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: in Michigan, and I think we're watching the effects of 698 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: that in action play out in real time. There's also 699 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: a simultaneous issue of like I know, you guys hadn 700 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,280 Speaker 1: episode on tenantinings and stuff, and there's tenants movements happening 701 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: in Michigan right now. But we kind of want her 702 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,240 Speaker 1: to you know, maybe wave some rent but that hasn't 703 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,759 Speaker 1: happened yet either. Aute. Yeah, yeah, and that's that's a 704 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: that's a really I'm really grateful for that reminder. Like 705 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: I have friends who are like closely involved in organizing, 706 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 1: you know, for for tenant tenant unions and for a 707 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 1: rent strike in Michigan, and I know that's that's another 708 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,399 Speaker 1: that's another area where people are you know, trying to 709 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: apply as much as much pressure as as they can. Yeah, well, 710 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: thank you for that. That's some interesting insight. Oh, she's 711 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: not going to be leaving our news cycle anytime soon, 712 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: I don't think, but you know, be paying attention. Yeah. Well, 713 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: that was everything I had to ask Katie. Ye, No, 714 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: I think that covered it. Thank you so much for 715 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 1: taking the time to speak with us guys. This was 716 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: super informative. Yeah, we really appreciate your time and of 717 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 1: course your activism, the actual work that you're doing on 718 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: the ground. Thanks for your work too, Yeah, thank you, 719 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for talking with us. And uh, 720 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: I really appreciate the questions and the opportunit need to 721 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,240 Speaker 1: think about some of these things together. If our listeners 722 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: wanted to help with what y'all are doing, um, is 723 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: there a place they could donate to kind of further 724 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 1: help further your efforts. I I don't think that there's 725 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,359 Speaker 1: a that there's a way for people to donate, you know, 726 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,319 Speaker 1: directly to no detention centers in Michigan at this time 727 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: or like we're not I don't think that we're necessarily 728 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: asking for donations in that way. But I guess I would, 729 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,240 Speaker 1: you know, just after thinking about it for a minute, 730 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,640 Speaker 1: I would, I think, in response to to that very 731 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: good question, I would just say that finding your local 732 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 1: mutual aid network, Like if people people in Michigan or beyond, 733 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,719 Speaker 1: you know, are thinking about ways that they can support 734 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: financially you know there. I know that in Michigan and 735 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,400 Speaker 1: again across the country there are mutual aid networks that 736 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: have been growing over the last month, and that they 737 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 1: are you know, in so many cases responding to some 738 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 1: of the same or to some like directly overlapping issues 739 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: with like state violence experiences and incarceration experiences of of 740 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: racist violence, and and and and you know, and and 741 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: the violence of everyday life in capitalism. Right. So, I think, 742 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,280 Speaker 1: in addition to like emailing us and checking out our website, 743 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,919 Speaker 1: if people are interested in UM in supporting in that way, 744 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,920 Speaker 1: then like the Grand Rapidary Mutual Late network is is 745 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,920 Speaker 1: the local one that friends of mine are involved in 746 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,400 Speaker 1: in Michigan, and I know there are other groups like 747 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: that that have been springing up more and more everywhere. Now. 748 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: The website is no detention centers am I dot org. 749 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 1: If you get there and there's a cool picture of 750 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: people standing in a light, you'll be there perfect um, 751 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: please keep us updated on things they're I'm sure we'd 752 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,919 Speaker 1: all be very curious to hear what happens, and we'll 753 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:56,240 Speaker 1: be following it as well. Definitely, thanks so much for listening, guys. 754 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: That was our interview. You can check us out online 755 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: at Worst Year Pau on Twitter and Instagram. Yeah, thanks 756 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 1: for listening. You uh neat uh nematodes and cool see 757 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: la cants you little lovees and dovies. You're charismatic see 758 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:25,800 Speaker 1: la cants see like your microcosmic madees com Bye everything, 759 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 1: so everything, So it's again. I tried. Worst Year Ever 760 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts 761 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 762 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.