1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you from house to 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: books dot com. He really welcome to the podcast. And Caroline, 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: and I'm Kristen, and today we have a special guest. 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: We're talking to Jessa Crispin, who's an author, a blogger, 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: and really just a book lover extraordinaire. She just wrote 6 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: a new book, The Dead Ladies Project Exiles X Pac 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: and ex Countries, which is being published this month. But 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: you also might know, or if you're just a book 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: nerd like we are, she's the founding editor of book splot, 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: which is a book review site and blog with a 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: super devoted following, and Spolia, which is a literary e 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: magazine that features writers that she said, we're left out 13 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: of the larger conversation. Now, Caroline, you've been really excited 14 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: to talk to Jessa, and you're also really excited to 15 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: hear about the Dead Ladies Project and to read it. 16 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: So talk to me a little bit of out what 17 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: grabbed your attention so much about this whole literary project 18 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: and journey. She went on, Well, I think I can't 19 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: remember now. I remember like grabbing your arm and being 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: like Christian we have to interview her. Um, but that Mom, grab, Yeah, 21 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: the total mom like it was just a mom arm, 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: as if you're about to walk into traffic. Kristen Um, 23 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: I think I saw a tweet or something of a 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: review and early review of her book, and I thought, oh, 25 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: this is totally right in the Sminty wheelhouse. Because we've 26 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: talked about lady explorers and women who have traveled and 27 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: explored the globe on the podcast before we had that 28 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: whole uh summer series on Lady Explorers a couple of 29 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: years ago. And you and I are also big time 30 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: book nerds who have talked a lot about other authors 31 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: and genres literally genres, and so here's this fascinating book nerd, 32 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: Jess Crispin, who has just written a book about her 33 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: own journey, and so here she is going to your 34 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: up and not necessarily trying to find herself, but she's 35 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: certainly combining a lot of really interesting things that you 36 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: and I love to talk about in one book. Well, 37 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: it really reminded me too of our Mormorian Flocks podcast 38 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: for a while back. And if that name isn't ringing 39 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: a bell listeners, it was the podcast we did about 40 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: women's sculptors, a lot of whom left the United States 41 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: in the what late nineteenth and early twentieth century to 42 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: make their art in Europe because it was more welcoming 43 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: for women artists. And and it seems like in Crispin's book, 44 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: you're introduced not only to similar artists, but also writers 45 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: and women whom you might not know about necessarily they 46 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: aren't like right in the Cannon. Yeah, which sort of 47 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: echoes Crispin's purpose for starting her literary her online literary magazine. 48 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: It's too sort of bring attention to those lesser known 49 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: voices who, even if they themselves necessarily make big waves 50 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: in the literary world or the art world. Um, they're 51 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: still fascinating figures to read about. People like James Joyce's 52 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: beleaguered wife Nora Barnicle, which, of course her name to 53 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: me just sounds like it's straight out of fiction itself. Um. 54 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: Or the ever support of Isabel Burton, who's the wife 55 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: of intrepid explorer Richard Francis Burton. And so she really 56 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: focuses on a range of women's experiences abroad. Yeah, and 57 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: it seems like she doesn't fall in love with every woman, 58 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: especially that she runs across. So, for instance, Jane Reese 59 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: is someone she talks about. Reese is an author whom 60 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: Crispin describes as being trapped in a repulsive brand of 61 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: helpless femininity, a little damsel in distress going on. Yeah, 62 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: and and Crispin does get into her distaste for Reese, 63 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: but it sounded to me like this was one of 64 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: the only surprises that Crispin encountered on her trip in 65 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: terms of, Hey, I'm gonna go learn more about this writer. Um, 66 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: I'm going she's going to fit into my narrative really well. 67 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: And then it turns out like, oh, well, actually she's 68 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: sort of just trading on this helplessness and not quote 69 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: unquote contributing. And so that's a theme that crops up 70 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: in uh in the Dead Ladies Project, about women or 71 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: just people in general who don't contribute in a way 72 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: that's meaningful. Yeah, and even though it is called the 73 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: Dead Ladies Project, as you said, it's not only women 74 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: she talks about. During her first stop in Berlin, she 75 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: introduces us to philosopher William James. Then we later meet 76 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: Stravinsky in Switzerland, of all places, that's right, Not in 77 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: just an orchestra pit somewhere, that's right. He's out in 78 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: the wild. We also meet uh W Somerset Mom, who 79 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: she calls the bard of the toxic relationship. Also my 80 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: ex boyfriend, Yeah, and he is in St. Petersburg, And 81 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: I mean, there's all sorts of characters. She also introduces 82 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: us to Claude Cahoune, a Jewish lesbian artist who used 83 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: very subversive, sort of individual level tactics to fight the 84 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: Nazis in her own way. So what especially stood out 85 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: to you about Crispin and the Dead Ladies Project. Well, 86 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: and I say this in the interview with her, but 87 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: it sort of struck me as the anti eat, pray, love, 88 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: uh and that while she does travel alone and she 89 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: does get introspective, she doesn't really seem like she's on 90 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: this journey of personal enrichment. She doesn't quote unquote get 91 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: the guy, and she doesn't make another country's culture about 92 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: her own personal growth. What she does do is immerse 93 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: herself in the cities that she visits across Europe. She 94 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: gets drunk a lot, she makes mistakes, she learns a lot, 95 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: and follows in the footsteps of other artists, some more 96 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: famous than others who came before. And I did like that, 97 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: Like we said, a lot of these people that she 98 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: talks about are sort of underdogs. They're not the big 99 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: names of music and art and literature, but they're fascinating 100 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: in their own right and deserve the attention that she's 101 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: giving them. Well, Caroline, I'm so glad that you talked 102 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: to Jessica Crispin about her book, and is it time 103 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: now for us to share your conversation with our listeners. 104 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: Let's do it. So, Hi, Jessa, thank you so much 105 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: for joining us today. We're very excited to talk to you, 106 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: and I was hoping it to get started. I could 107 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: just have you introduce yourself to our book lover listeners. 108 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: So who are you and what do you do? Um? 109 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: My name is Jessica Crispin. I am the editor and 110 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: founder of two literary magazines, book Splot and Spolia UM, 111 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: and now I have written a book called The Dead 112 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: Ladies Project that is coming out with the University of 113 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: over Press. I guess I guess that's who I am. Well. 114 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: I loved your book. It was an incredible read. I 115 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: thought it was a great combination of travel and history 116 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: and it was sort of, if you don't mind me saying, 117 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: I thought it was sort of the anti et Prey Love. 118 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: It was an awesome journey and an interesting look at 119 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: introspection and growth. But it wasn't uh, it wasn't saccharin. 120 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: It was it was a really great read. UM. And 121 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: So before we jump into talking about the book, though, UM, 122 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: I was wondering if we could talk about the book 123 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: review site and blog book slet that you mentioned. UM. 124 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty amazing that in your early twenties 125 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: you created a professionally self sustaining blog brand within such 126 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: a who's who kind of industry. So how did that 127 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: site and its name come to be and why do 128 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: you think it struck such a chord with so many readers? Um. Yeah, 129 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: started when I was twenty three, and all of it, 130 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: from the name to its entire existence, was essentially an accident, 131 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: I guess, I would say, Um, it really only started because, UM, 132 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: I had a day job where I was sitting in 133 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: front of the computer and I didn't have enough work 134 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: to do, and so I pooled around on the internet. It's, 135 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: you know, the great tradition of day jobs to give 136 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: you an Internet connection. I don't know what they expect 137 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: you to UM. And so I started a blog, UM, 138 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: and that was actually because my then boyfriend had a 139 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:33,599 Speaker 1: blog and I thought it was really boring and I 140 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: was like, I didn't do this better than you, and 141 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: so I did um and the blog. So it was 142 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: a blog first like daily and then people started reading 143 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 1: it and I still don't know how that happened. Um. 144 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: So then I got really self conscious and I thought, 145 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: while I should actually it put some efforts into it. 146 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: So I asked that the people to contribute, and that's 147 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: how it kind of turned into the book reviews ie. Um. 148 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: As for how why, I don't know. I means as 149 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: far as why it has an audience, why it still 150 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: has an audience, I honestly don't know, and I never 151 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: really understood that part of it. But I'm grateful. I mean, 152 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: it's really grateful if I feel like if I tried 153 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: to make it work, you know, if I tried to 154 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: think about how to create a business and do it, 155 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: I think it would have been a total failure. Um. 156 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: I think just by kind of doing whatever I felt 157 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: like doing for some reason, that came off as more 158 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: genuine than a lot of kind of professionalized sites. And 159 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: I think that's I think that might be part of it. Yeah, 160 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: I was going to say, it seems like that genuineness 161 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: really helps readers connect and it's almost more accessible. Not 162 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: that you can't just pull up a New York Times 163 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: book review on the internet, but it does seem in 164 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: that way that it's almost more accessible, and it's like 165 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: like one of your friends is writing a book review. Um. 166 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: But that leads me speaking of books. This whole conversation 167 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 1: is about books. But for the Dead Ladies project, you 168 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: traveled around Europe for a year and a half and 169 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: so you ended up ditching most of your earthly belongings 170 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: in Chicago and you headed off to Berlin and then 171 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: to Trieste, to Galway, Sarajevo, the south of France, Lausanne, St. 172 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: Petersburg and secin both. But what sparked your solo journey 173 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: and what kept you going once you had set out? 174 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: What kept you going in the face of travel, anxiety 175 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 1: and fatigue. Um, it really started because Um, while I 176 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: moved to Berlin. Um, And I moved to Berlin before 177 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: years before I had the idea for the book. It was. 178 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: It was a personal decision that I made and I 179 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: really yeah, I got rid of everything. I got down 180 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 1: to two suitcases and showed up and Berlin was hey, 181 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: I don't speak your language, please don't please, don't let 182 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: me die on the street. And your just in Europe, right. 183 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 1: And I've done a lot of traveling before, but I've 184 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: never actually just been in a place where you can 185 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,599 Speaker 1: just get on a train and then get off the 186 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: train and you're in a whole other country. That had 187 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: never been a part of my reality. And it became 188 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: really hard to get me in Berlin. It became really 189 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: hard to like, um, make myself be in my apartment. 190 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: I just left all the time. Just as soon as 191 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,839 Speaker 1: I had, you know, the thirty euro to get a 192 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 1: train ticket, I just left. UM. So that it just 193 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: became a really sort of natural part of my life 194 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: where I became kind of used to being having this 195 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: kind of um, unpredictable, I guess uh uh situation and 196 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: then um, and then I had the idea for the book, um, 197 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: and so then the travel became structured. So then it 198 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: became like, okay, well I'm going to do this, going 199 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: to do the US and this and this, and I 200 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: had an itinerary, and I had the people in mind 201 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: that I wanted to write about. Sit down. The travel 202 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 1: became much more focused but then I just like, I 203 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: gave up my apartment, put everything in storage, and you know, 204 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: went out with my once agase it was. It was 205 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: a little um. Now, looking back, I don't know how 206 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: I did. That's just oh, yeah, this is what's going 207 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: to happen. I'm just going to give up my apartment 208 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 1: and live out of one suitcase for a year and 209 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: a half. Them makes total sense. Um, But uh, I 210 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: enjoyed it at the time. I didn't really have travel fatigue. 211 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: It didn't and maybe it's because I didn't have anywhere 212 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: to go back to. I mean I got sad sometimes, 213 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: I got lonely sometimes sometimes it was really hard. But 214 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: I never had the idea of like, screwm and I 215 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: don't want to do this anymore. I was like, well, 216 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: we'll just go to the next place and it will 217 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: be different than next place. Yeah. So did you find 218 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: that traveling alone was better than having traveled with a partner? 219 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: Did you get something out of that that was perhaps 220 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: different than traveling with someone else. I've done very limited 221 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: travel with other people, um, and only really with romantic partners. 222 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: I've never traveled with a friend or anything like that. 223 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: But I find that it's incredibly different experience when you're 224 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: traveling with somebody else. When you're traveling with someone else, 225 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: you're like paying half of your attention to this other person. 226 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: You're more inward and you're kind of even more aware 227 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: of yourself. I guess as you're interacting intimately, you're having conversations, 228 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: you're kind of experiencing things with another person, So there's 229 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: this kind of reflection going on, Whereas when you're traveling 230 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: by yourself, then you don't have anything. You become much 231 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: more open, you become much more um vulnerable in good 232 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: ways and in bad ways. In each city that you visited, 233 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: you you sort of basically following the footsteps of a 234 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: famous artist who came before or so I was wondering 235 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: if you could introduce our listeners to the people that 236 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: you wrote about and maybe speak a little bit about 237 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: why you chose those specific figures. Sure, there was William 238 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 1: James in Berlin. Um and it was two wives in Trieste, 239 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: nor Barnicle, who was the wife of James Joyce and 240 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: Isabel Burton, who was the wife of Richard Francis Burton. Um. 241 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: There was Rebecca West in Saraevo uh oh Man, I'm 242 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: gonna forget somebody and this is gonna be really painful. 243 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: There was Stravinsky in Lauson. There was w Somerset Mom 244 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: in Russia. There was Margaret Anderson in the South of France, 245 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: mod Gun in Galway, Jane Reece in London, and Claude 246 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: Calhoun in Jersey Island. I totally left out London when 247 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: I introduced your city list. Well yeah, so, so what 248 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: do these people have in common or or did they? 249 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: And and why did to pick these figures? Um? Each 250 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: person was picked because it's some sort of some sort 251 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: of metaphor or some sort of entryway. I mean, if 252 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: if you kind of list out the people who are 253 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: uh sort of famous X facts, there are much more 254 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: famous people than the ones that I picked, Like Hemingway 255 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: would be a really obvious example in Paris. UM. But 256 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: I needed some sort of entry as far as there 257 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: had to be a link between, um, the person in 258 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: the place and then my experience at that place. So 259 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: like William James in Berlin. UM. He's one of my 260 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: favorite philosophers. He's someone that I've read extensively. UM, but 261 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: he moved to Berlin before he became a philosopher. When 262 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: he was still in this phase of like failing to 263 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: really become anybody. And Um, that's basically how I showed 264 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: up in Berlin as somebody who had really failed to 265 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: be person um. And so I connected with that, and 266 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: that also connected to Berlin, which is a city that is, 267 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: you know, like one German Um I met described Berlin 268 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: as the festering wound of Germany, like it's just it's 269 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: like this weird, out of time place that kind of 270 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: doesn't really have anything to do with the country that 271 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: holds it, um. And Uh. The other Germans are like, 272 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: we don't, I don't know, I don't know what Berlin 273 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: you know. Um. And so that seems like a nice connection. 274 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: And then there were others as well, like I was 275 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: very interested in somebody like um mod gun Um, who 276 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: really has not been written about enough. Um. If anybody 277 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: knows about her, it's because she was amused of Yates. Um. 278 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: But she's much more interesting person than Yates. And she 279 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: sold herself to the devil when she was a teenage girl, um. 280 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: And she was a practicing black magician, and she resurrected 281 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: her dense son, and she was she was a gun 282 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: runner during the Irish Revolution. She was a serious babe, 283 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: and UM, just to kind of like be able to 284 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 1: spend time with her was kind of incredible. Yeah. Absolutely, 285 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: I found that I was fascinated by the women that 286 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: you talked about in the details that you shared, And 287 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: it seems like a lot of them had that almost 288 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: underdog quality or that unappreciated quality, And did that sort 289 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: of attract to you? Did that play any part in 290 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: your attraction to them? I think that I've always been 291 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: drawn to be more obscure, and I think it's just because, UM, 292 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: I guess if you kind of feel like you're on 293 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: the sidelines of life, like if you're not if you're 294 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: not killing it, if you're not um sort of celebrated 295 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: and amazing and popular and wealthy, and like people aren't 296 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: sort of you know, shouting your name crowds um that, 297 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: and you're kind of stuck on the margins and you 298 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: feel like, you know, social reject then you maybe have 299 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: more in common with social rejects, UM, and so you 300 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: feel drawn to their company company, And I think that's 301 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: that was kind of it was. I was in a 302 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,479 Speaker 1: place where I felt really lost, UM, and while these 303 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: women were interesting, they didn't most of them didn't have 304 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: grand fame, and that was part of it. Was like, Okay, 305 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: well maybe it's just my life. How do I feel 306 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: okay with it? How do I not descend into disappointment 307 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: and bitterness? Um? And that was that was an important 308 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: part of this trip as well. Well. Did your did 309 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: your journey or your deeper look into these people's lives? 310 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: Did that change how you saw any of them? Or 311 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: was that all pretty well established before you set out 312 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: to following their footsteps and write the book? Um? Some 313 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: I had some I found much more respect for it 314 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: than I had before. There was only one person, and 315 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: I was the writer Generees in London that I just 316 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: felt like I thought I was going to write, you know, 317 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: this sort of adoring thing. And I realized as I 318 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: was researching her more and more than I really hated her, 319 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: Like I really started to think of her as like 320 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: my enemy. Um. So that was really surprising to me. 321 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: And it was also really surprising to me because I 322 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: hated London. I've been to London several times. I've always 323 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: hated it, and then this time I fell in love 324 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: with the city. So it was like this weird mixed match. 325 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: It was. It was it was a big surprise that one. Well, 326 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: I'm interested to talk about gene rees and your opinion, ever, 327 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: because it seems like that as you your understanding of 328 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: her unfolds, you went from being as I read it, 329 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: you went from being sort of excited to learn more 330 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 1: about her and kind of trace her path to almost 331 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: be like, jeez, what are you doing trading on your 332 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: helpless femininity? Yeah, come on, lady, pull us together. Um yeah, 333 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: I mean she just used everyone around her and as 334 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: her excuse, she used, you know, oh, I'm so helpless. 335 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: I'm just such a like lise a wounded bird. I 336 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: can't I don't even have the strength to raise my 337 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: head to eat, you know, to like put the food 338 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: in my mouth. Um. And I find that repulsive, Like 339 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: I really do. Um and I There was that quality 340 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: in her novels of being kind of um helpless, of 341 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: being just in a bad way and vulnerable, But in 342 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: the biography it makes it clear like this was a 343 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: self sustaining thing, like it was a ploy. So in 344 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: the novels it's bad luck, bad circumstances, whatever, you know, 345 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 1: like the state of women in society, But in her 346 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: biography she had opportunities and she didn't take them, and 347 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: she because she really preferred to take stuff from other people, 348 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: like like in this kind of vampiric kind of way. Um. Yeah. 349 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: And I just ended up really disliking her. Um so much. 350 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: Did she herself have bad luck and bad experiences that 351 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: she traded on or were those just was her self 352 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: pity or helplessness just sort of funneled into her characters. Well, 353 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: she came from money, and she came from like a 354 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: colonial family, um. So Um. She it wasn't like her 355 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: situation was dire um. You know, it's a it's a 356 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: British thing, that Edwardian British thing of the cold father 357 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: and the mother doesn't give um. And so that was part, 358 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: I guess, part of the problem. But at the same 359 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: time she um, no, she just seemed to prefer it. 360 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: She she needed a lot of attention. She was a 361 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: failed actress, um. And so when she couldn't get the 362 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: attention that way of being on stage, she just you know, 363 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: took it from men um and she you know, preferred 364 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 1: to have she could have made a living, she preferred 365 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: to take men's money she could have you know whatever. Yeah, Well, 366 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: beyond gene Reese, you do right about your strong aversion 367 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: to that helpless passive women. Um, whether that is figures 368 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: in literature, actual artists, or just women that maybe you 369 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: encountered while you were traveling, And so what is so 370 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: repulsive about that figure? And have you encountered her in 371 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: your life often? Um? Yeah, ivecound encountered her a couple 372 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: of times. Um. I think it's just that thing of 373 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,719 Speaker 1: you have. I believe strongly that one one one should contribute, 374 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: and that doesn't I mean, I don't necessarily mean in 375 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: the Protestant way of like you should work, like everybody 376 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: should work. I don't think that's necessarily true. But I 377 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: think that you should at least give into the world 378 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: as much as you're taking. And I also think that 379 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: women use this in this particularly. And I'm totally generalizing 380 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: right now, but some women use this as a way 381 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: to get ahead so that they don't actually have to contribute, 382 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: so they can just take from men, so that they 383 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: can just sort of be parasites on men or on 384 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: you know, other women, so that they don't have to 385 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: be responsible for themselves. And um, yeah, and I've had 386 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: friends like that. I've had you know where you think 387 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: you're kind of hanging out, and you know, she just 388 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: takes a little bit and then takes a little bit 389 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: more and then sees what she can get some way with. 390 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: And and I've had male friends who have had that 391 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: as their girlfriends and their wives, and you know, it's 392 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: the it's the it's the woman who you know, when 393 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: the guy tries to break up with her, you know, 394 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: fix the suicide attemption something like that. And those women 395 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: do exist, um, and they're kind of played up as cliches, 396 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: but they do actually, they do actually exist in some forms. 397 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: And Jean Racia did the suicide fake suicide thing like 398 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: a lot, really a lot. Yeah, I'm going out the window. 399 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: If you don't love me anymore, I'm going out the window. 400 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: And then you know she'd get on the sill and 401 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: he would like have to pull her back into the room, 402 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: you know, like she did a lot. It was Yeah, 403 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: she needed a lot of attention. And we'll hear more 404 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: from Jessica chrismin right after a quick thing. You point 405 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: out a few times throughout the book the ideas about 406 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: what supposedly creates an interesting, strong, creative person like William 407 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: James having an awful dad or Somerset mom living closet 408 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: with a terrible wife. But as William James sort of 409 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: finally seems to wake up and shake off his dad's influence, 410 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: he writes, my first active free will shall be to 411 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 1: believe in free will. And so as wondering as I read, 412 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,239 Speaker 1: did you yourself have to reject anybody's sway over your 413 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: life as you traveled or as you wrote, Yeah, well 414 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: my entire family. Yeah, but also just I think that 415 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: I had when I started. Um, I had a lot 416 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: of and I still do, married friends and friends you 417 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: know who own property and have kids and are married, 418 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: and that's their priority is keeping like a safe space. Um. 419 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: And my priority is the opposite of that. And you 420 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: and there's like these little undermining things that people say 421 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: that they don't mean it as such, but you know 422 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: they're not thinking about it, just like what why would 423 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: you do that? Like don't you ever get tired? Don't 424 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: you ever get lonely? It's like, well, yeah, don't you 425 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: ever get tired? Don't you ever get lonely? It's it's 426 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: a thing to do with being on the road. Um, 427 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: And so yeah, and those voices are important to shut out. 428 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: And also just you know, I've worked in publishing now 429 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: or adjacent publishing for thirteen fourteen years now, um, and 430 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: there are certain rules that you're supposed to obey. Um. 431 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: Mostly these rules are created by men and as far 432 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: as like what you're supposed to write? Um. And so 433 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: when I was with the book that there were a 434 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: lot of conversations were like, this is this is not 435 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: this is not a book. This is complicated to doing 436 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: too much. It won't sell, No one's going to read it. 437 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: You should just write a men more or something, and 438 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: you should go into an m f A program. But yeah, 439 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: so there's just right. The act of writing the book 440 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: was an active defiance because a lot of people told 441 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: me this is not a book. I was like, I'll 442 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: show you what a book is. I mean, I think 443 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: it's worked out. I couldn't put it down. So well, 444 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: there's one voice. So you seem I mean, you seem 445 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: like a very confident traveler. I know that seems like 446 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: a silly thing to say, but I think part of 447 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: the confidence is brushing off people's constant commentary of but 448 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: aren't you lonely? And I was thinking of this as 449 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: you were writing about Richard Francis Burton and Isabel Burton 450 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: because you say, but where is my Isabelle? I wonder 451 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: to follow with the luggage and be a companion in 452 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: foreign lands. Maybe a tiny voice whispers, she'll show up 453 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: when you finally admit to being Richard Francis Burton. And 454 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: I thought that was fantastic. And so had you already 455 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: sort of been accepting and comfortable in your status as 456 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: a capable and independent traveler. Did you want and Isabel 457 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: or were you like to hell with it all? I'm 458 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: hitting the read and I feel great. Um, I wasn't 459 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: really the until I went, Um, while I was in Triesqu, 460 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: I went to Rome and I went with my lover 461 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: at the time, and that's when I realized, oh, this 462 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: is different. This is a really different way of being 463 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: in the world. And it made me not like it 464 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: so much anymore, or it made me You know, when 465 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: when you've been traveling for a long time and you 466 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: and you do get to that point where you're just 467 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: desperate not to introduce yourself to somebody, not to go 468 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: through those those you know, baseline biographical details. Again. Um, 469 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: you know that happened in the first conversation. You just 470 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: want somebody to understand you and know you and like, 471 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: you know, when you make this space, it means you 472 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: want a girl to sandwich, you know, like just that 473 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: kind of level of understanding. And so I had been 474 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: longing for that, um or I would, but then I 475 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,479 Speaker 1: actually went on a trip with somebody else, and then 476 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is not this is not 477 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: what I do. And it's nice to see Rome, and 478 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: Rome is a good place to do it because it's Rome, 479 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: and you know, it's romantic and it's beautiful and there's 480 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of stuff going on. Um But if, 481 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: like say, if he had come with me to like Saravo, 482 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: that would have been a whole other experience. I can't 483 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: imagine what it would have been like. So now I'm 484 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: not I'm much more okay with traveling by myself, but 485 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: sometimes you do get to that point and just like 486 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: I just want somebody else to cherry my bag like 487 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: five minutes. Well, I mean I think it's an issue 488 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: or it's just a sentiment that comes up in a 489 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: lot of situations. You know, we did an episode a 490 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: while back on women conductors, for instance, and that is 491 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: such that's also very intense, time consuming passion consuming job. 492 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: And there was one woman conductor we quoted who said, like, yeah, 493 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: I would probably be even more successful if I I 494 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: had a housewife too. And I think it's the same, yeah, 495 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: the same concept of of like, yeah, sometimes it would 496 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: be nice if somebody did carry my bag or like 497 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: make a plane reservation. It's also a corrupt desire to 498 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: want somebody to make your life easier, like it's you 499 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: should be and not that it's like we should all be, 500 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, pioneers out on our own, totally self, you know, 501 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: like that the American myths if I don't need anybody, 502 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: you know, But it is a corrupt desire, I think 503 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: to have somebody, to want somebody to do things for 504 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: you that um um that does the thing that doesn't 505 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: come into play. It was like what are you contributing 506 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: to them? Like what are you doing for them? Because 507 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,479 Speaker 1: I think that a lot of women sort of um, 508 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: at least women that I've talked to, um, are put 509 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: in this place in relationships where their conscient is what 510 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: they can contribute to their male partner. Um. And I 511 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: guess men tend to think some men and whatever, And 512 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: I always I hate generalizing the men women thing. Um. 513 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: But sometimes it's just easier. Um. Some men just think, oh, 514 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: well I'm around, So that's what I'm contributing to her. 515 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: You know, like if you're not kind of actively facilitating 516 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: each other's existences both of you, and you're not just 517 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: like one person carrying the burden, Um, then what are 518 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: you doing? Isabelle and Richard? I did envy that relationship 519 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: because they did bring things to the table on equal levels. 520 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: Like she you know, he would come, He would go 521 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: to the place first and set it up. She would 522 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: follow with the luggage. He knew the language, so he 523 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: would do this sort of interaction. She would you know, um, 524 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: make the place nice, hang out with the women, find 525 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: out what you know, like the situation on the ground is. 526 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: And they were able to kind of and you know, 527 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: there's no way that she in her time could have 528 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: traveled as extensively she did without him. Um. And so 529 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,239 Speaker 1: they did bring a lot to each other's lives. They 530 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: made each other's lives better, both of them. UM. And 531 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: that's something I'd never had, UM. But it's also something 532 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: I know that a lot of people in relationships don't have. 533 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: And so it's not like sit around and you know, 534 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: I'm not waiting for a man to make my life better. 535 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: I couldn't make my life better as it is. Well, 536 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: I'm definitely gonna have to read more about Rebecca West 537 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: now that I read your book. She's a fascinating figure, 538 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: but she's pretty controversial. I mean, I have a lot 539 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: of problems with Rebecca West, but at the baseline, like 540 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: I can respect what she did, um yeah. And and 541 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: her book on Yugoslavia is just one of those books 542 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: that the world changed because it exists, you know, and 543 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: that doesn't happen all that often. Actually, Well, and could 544 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: you then that kind of leads to my next question 545 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: about being a traveler and a writer and a tourist 546 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: and what does that all mean. But before we hit that, um, 547 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: could you explain a little bit about who Rebecca West was, 548 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: why she was an important figure with her writing, but 549 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: also maybe what she did wrong with however writing? Um? Yeah, 550 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: she was a super ambitious um journalist and novelist and 551 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: essayist um. And her kind of magnum opus that I 552 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: deal with in the book is black Latin and great 553 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: falcon um. So she went to Yugoslavia during the wars 554 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: or between the wars, world War One and World War two, 555 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: and her desire to go there was because everybody was 556 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: talking about this place, right, the assassination of Franz Ferdinand 557 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: UM happened in Saraevo, and that to World War one, 558 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: so everybody said, but nobody, actually nobody in the West 559 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: who was blaming all of this destruction on this little 560 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: part of the world, had ever really been there, had 561 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: ever paid attention to it, had any idea what the 562 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: stresses were before um the assassination happened, like why the 563 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: assassination may have happened? UM? And so she went and 564 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: to find out, and she really went to you know, 565 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: from door to door. She went to every part. She 566 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: went to almost every major city, in small cities too, 567 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,399 Speaker 1: and she just talked to everybody to get a kind 568 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: of not just historical but UM, geographical and artistic and ethnographic. 569 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: It's really all encompassing. It's like twelve hundred pages. It's exhaustive, UM, 570 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:05,760 Speaker 1: but it's UM. It's something that it's UM. We Westerners 571 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,879 Speaker 1: don't do enough, like we think we understand a place 572 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: without actually knowing anything about it, you know. UM. And 573 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: so I deeply respect her for going to the place 574 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: and figuring it out. On the other hand, and the 575 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: rest of her career, she was so ambitious that she 576 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: you know, um it was a little bit intellectually lazy. 577 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: She she wanted to make a name for herself desperately, 578 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: and when you want to make a name for yourself, 579 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: there are things that you're willing to let go. Um. 580 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: And so yeah, that was that was my primary problem 581 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: with her. That for as much as she produced, and 582 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: she produced like, you know, a dozen novels and all 583 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: god knows how many actual words and journalism, um, it 584 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily add up to much except for the one 585 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: book that remains. Well, do you strike that balance between 586 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: travel writer and tourists, between uh, um, projecting things onto 587 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: the people that you're encountering and the cultures that you're encountering. 588 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: How do you how do you strike that balance of 589 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: basically not forcing your American writer viewpoint on someone else. Oh, 590 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: you're definitely gonna do, like, there's no escape, there's Um, 591 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: it's really hard not to because even you know, you 592 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: can just ask questions and just write down what the 593 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: person is saying, but you're going to ask the wrong 594 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: questions because you're an American, right or not? Just because 595 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 1: you're American, because you're an outsider, and because you're mostly fat, 596 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: and on news reports that are slanted. Because there are 597 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: certain things we want to believe about certain places in 598 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,879 Speaker 1: order to make us feel like atrocity and war and um, 599 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: genocide and disaster couldn't happen to us, So we need 600 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: to think that there's something different about those places. So 601 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: as long as you understand the mechanism that's feeding a 602 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 1: lot of the information that you're getting, then you can 603 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: kind of see through some of it. But at the 604 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 1: same time, there's no way to completely discard the way 605 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: that you're intellectually raised. Like the information that you get, 606 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: you can't see through it, um, but you can listen. 607 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: And that's I think the most important thing, um is 608 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,919 Speaker 1: listening and allowing people to tell you when you're wrong. 609 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: And I think that doesn't happen enough in travel writing. Now, 610 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: are you having having made that journey and written the book, 611 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: have you come back to the States? Are you still 612 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,959 Speaker 1: in Europe? Where are you now? Um? I'm temporarily back 613 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: in the States, Yeah, which I have a lot of 614 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: mixed feelings about. Um. Yeah, And it's kind of an accident. 615 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 1: It was like I'm going to come in the States 616 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: for a couple of months. I'm going to see some friends. Um, 617 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: I'm gonna you know, whatever the plan was. But then 618 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: when I got here and being around people who have 619 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: known me for you know, twenty years and eating and drinking, 620 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: and it's like, oh man, it was that was a 621 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: moment I realized how lonely I had been. And I 622 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: was like, if I get on a plane, if I 623 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: get on a plane, I'm just gonna have a nervous breakdown, 624 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: Like I don't I just can't do it again right now. 625 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: But now I've been here a year and now I'm like, okay, 626 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 1: i gotta get out. Yeah. Now I'm restored and I'm 627 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: thinking about leaving again. Yeah. Is there is there a 628 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: plan for where you want ahead? Are you going to 629 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: go back to Berlin or where you where? Are you thinking? Oh? No, 630 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,399 Speaker 1: definitely not Berlin. Um No, I haven't figured it out, 631 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: And as soon as I do, that will be the 632 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: moment where and when I go, So that to be 633 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: how it works. Yeah. Do how have the people around 634 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: you reacted to your travels beyond just saying like, don't 635 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: you get lonely? Have they found it weird that you're 636 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,399 Speaker 1: just willing to pick up and go. Uhh. I think 637 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: I mean the people that I'm closest to know that 638 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: this is not really a choice that I make. Is 639 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 1: that if I stayed in one place, I would die, 640 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: Like I really feel like I would be the lady who, 641 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: if I bought a house, would accidentally burnt, accidentally burn 642 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: that house down, like it would just be Oh, I 643 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: don't know what happened. It just left like a candle 644 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: on some sheets. I'm near a gas can. Yeah, we 645 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: should specify. We should specify that Jessa just used air 646 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: quotes around accidentally accidentally. She and I are looking at 647 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,839 Speaker 1: each other, but you guys are listening to head fence. 648 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: So um, yeah I could. I could not. Yeah, it 649 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't work for me. Um. And the people who I 650 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: know know that you know me best. They know that. 651 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: So it sounds like you as we feel compelled to 652 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: travel and keep moving. And I was wondering whether writing 653 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: and travel serve similar purposes for you. Um, really, the 654 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: writing helps me figure out what the travel is all about. Um. 655 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 1: The travel is kind of overwhelming and very sensual in 656 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: the sense of like senses, you know, like you're seeing 657 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: a like smelling a lot, feeling a lot, um, and 658 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: you're trying to take information, um and make it understandable. 659 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: And so that's what the writing is. And there were 660 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: things when I was writing the book that was like, 661 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: oh oh, so that's what that was all about. And 662 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: and so without the writing, the travel would just be 663 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: like this big overwhelming thing and um, so yeah, the 664 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: writing helps me figure out how I even feel about 665 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,240 Speaker 1: the travel essentially. Are you working on any other writing 666 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 1: projects now? I am always yes, I am yes, I am. Um. Well, 667 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: I have a book of about the terror because that's 668 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,959 Speaker 1: my day job. I read terror cards. Um. That's coming 669 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: out in February. And I'm working on a manifesto for 670 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: Melville House. So I have a lot going on. Yeah, 671 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: I know. I was considering like maybe we should do 672 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: a two part or interview with her. In part two 673 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 1: is that she's reading our tarot cards. I don't know. 674 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: I don't know how I'm reaching for the listeners that 675 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: would be, but I would find it very interesting. Yeah, 676 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: I love it. And that's a lot of how I 677 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: funded my travel was reading terror cards. Um. It's some's 678 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: It's a wonderful thing for a writer to be able 679 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: to do because it's a space where this other person 680 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: is just telling you all of their stories. And for 681 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,319 Speaker 1: a writer, I mean, god, can you imagine anything better 682 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: if people just come and just spill their darkest secrets 683 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: and tell you their fears and you know their traumas 684 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 1: and all this terrible stuff that's happening. How is that 685 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 1: not amazing for writers? It's fantastic. Well, now that we 686 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 1: have covered a lot of ground, I want to ask 687 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: if you have any words of advice for our fellow 688 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: world traveling listeners out there, people who maybe they just 689 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 1: aspire to set out on a solo journey, I might 690 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: be nervous or scared or not be certain about what 691 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: they're doing. Um, I think the most important thing to 692 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 1: remember for long term travel and I am a big 693 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: advocate for planting yourself somewhere for a while, like I 694 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 1: think a month minimum someplace. Is it like you have 695 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 1: to stay for longer or you're just gonna be like 696 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,240 Speaker 1: hitting the surface. And so for like a long term travel, 697 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: like if you go out for a couple of months, 698 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: the only thing to remember is that you're going to 699 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: hit every emotion and it's okay, it's okay. To be lonely. 700 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: It's okay to be scared. These things are fleeting. It's 701 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: okay not to have a good time. It's okay to 702 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: lose all of your money or you know, fall down 703 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: in public, or you know, you it's important not to 704 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: sort of judge the experience by its lowest points. You 705 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 1: have to have the lowest points in order to have 706 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: the highest points. So you go, You take care of 707 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,400 Speaker 1: yourself while you're out in whatever way you need to. 708 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,440 Speaker 1: You deal with the stuff as it comes, and you 709 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: don't sort of like grab onto anything negative, don't hold it, 710 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 1: just let it keep going, and you know, don't panic, 711 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 1: just keep going day to time. And if it's bad 712 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 1: at that place, if it really is just terrible, just 713 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,360 Speaker 1: go to another place. Pick up your stop, go to 714 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 1: another place. London is crap, go to Paris, you know. 715 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: And well, thank you so much to Jessic Crispin for 716 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: coming on the show and talking about her work and 717 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 1: her new book, The Dead Ladies Project exiles ex Pats 718 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: and ex countries. And if you want to learn more 719 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: about Jessa or the project she's working on, you can 720 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 1: go to Jessica Crispin dot com. That'll point you to 721 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: her e literary magazine Spolia, and you can also go 722 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,360 Speaker 1: to book slut dot com and of course don't forget 723 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,280 Speaker 1: to go to your fine online or brick and mortar 724 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,760 Speaker 1: book retailers to get yourself a copy of her book. 725 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 1: And now listeners, as always, we'd love to hear about 726 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 1: your travel stories. Did Crispin's book remind you of places 727 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 1: that you'd been or authors or artists that you especially love. 728 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: Let us know mom Stuff at how stuff works dot 729 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: Com is our email addressed. You can also tweet us 730 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've 731 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you right now. 732 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: So I've got to let her here from Anna, which 733 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 1: is appropriate to your conversation with Jessica Crispin because it 734 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: takes place partially in Berlin and it's about our Free 735 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 1: the Nipple episode. So she writes, I was just listening 736 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,880 Speaker 1: to your podcast about freeing the Nipples and women topless 737 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 1: in public. It was perfect timing because I had a 738 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: really great experience with this over the weekend. I'm an American, 739 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: but I've lived in Berlin for a few years. As 740 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,320 Speaker 1: you mentioned, East Chairman's are really comfortable going nude, mostly 741 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: at late When I first moved here, I really admired this, 742 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: but I thought I could never do it myself. I 743 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,120 Speaker 1: used to have nightmares about that as a kid, like 744 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: many kids I know. But last weekend I was swimming 745 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: at a lake with a girlfriend and we saw many 746 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 1: topless women, including some younger women, which is not quite 747 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 1: as common. We decided to try it, although we were 748 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 1: both a bit hesitant, but it was so much fun. 749 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,279 Speaker 1: It felt so liberating and also reinforced the sentiment of 750 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,360 Speaker 1: why shouldn't I be able to show my breasts in public. 751 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 1: It really made me think about why I was uncomfortable 752 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: being nude and public, and how much the American culture 753 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,240 Speaker 1: of modesty had affected me to feel comfortable. I reminded 754 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: myself that nobody here cares if my boobs are out, 755 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,560 Speaker 1: but this is not an easy mentality to change. Anyway. 756 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,280 Speaker 1: I'm so happy I tried it, and encourage any women 757 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,360 Speaker 1: too if they're in a place where they feel comfortable 758 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 1: doing so well. Thank you so much for sharing, Anna, 759 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: and I can personally attest from my experience on topless 760 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,040 Speaker 1: speeches in Spain that yes, it can be quite liberating 761 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: to free your nipple in public. Just you sunscreen boobs 762 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,520 Speaker 1: do burn very easily. Well. I have a letter here 763 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 1: from Caitlin. She says, as a woman who recently completed 764 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,760 Speaker 1: a plumbing apprenticeship, your episode on women in the trades 765 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,120 Speaker 1: was very exciting. I began the apprenticeship with the hopes 766 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,840 Speaker 1: of becoming a project manager. After completing the apprenticeship program, 767 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,080 Speaker 1: I've recently been promoted to a project coordinator position. I 768 00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,399 Speaker 1: really enjoy my new position, but I been thinking about 769 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: how I can give back to the trade its community. 770 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,439 Speaker 1: Your show has inspired me to start an employee group 771 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,399 Speaker 1: for women in the trades, as well as to work 772 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: on encouraging women in the trades to move up in 773 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: their career path. I spoke with the CFO of the 774 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,239 Speaker 1: company I work with, and he is very supportive of 775 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: the program. I've been hesitant in the past to recommend 776 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 1: the trades as a career path for women because it 777 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,440 Speaker 1: can be a difficult work environment for all the reasons 778 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: you mentioned on the show. I would like to do 779 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:23,840 Speaker 1: my part to improve the work atmosphere for women in 780 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 1: the trades and to bring women together to support each other. 781 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,680 Speaker 1: Thank you for your wonderful show and thank you for 782 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,080 Speaker 1: supporting other ladies in the trades, Caitlin, and thanks to 783 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: everybody who's written into us, tweeted us, and facebooked us. Mom. 784 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:39,759 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is where you 785 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,759 Speaker 1: can send us your emails. You can also find links 786 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: to all of our social media as well as all 787 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 1: of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one with 788 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,960 Speaker 1: links to learn more about Jessica Crispin and the Dead 789 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,680 Speaker 1: Ladies Project. Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told 790 00:47:54,760 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of 791 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,279 Speaker 1: other topics. Doesn't how staff works dot com