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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph

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Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. Dalia Dippolito caught on camera in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine ordering a hit on her husband

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Speaker 1: the solicitations did you hear what? David and loved Joying

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Speaker 1: inspired for about a month to kill her estranged husband.

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Speaker 1: When the verdict was read, it was just too much

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Speaker 1: for one of the defendants. At one point, Diana loved

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Speaker 1: joy completely passed out the puppet master that was killing

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Speaker 1: all the strings it. You know what that whole till

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Speaker 1: death do us part thing? You know, I've been thinking

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Speaker 1: about that, but apparently so have a lot of other people,

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Speaker 1: and they're focusing more on the death part. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about women who kill. But oh no, no, no, they

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Speaker 1: don't want to mess up their French manicure and do

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Speaker 1: it themselves. Uh, no way. They want to outsource, hire

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Speaker 1: somebody to do it. And that's where everything goes sideways.

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Speaker 1: And here in the studio with me, Jackie Howard, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: we know as moms and wives, and you, of course

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Speaker 1: an ex wife. Let me just point that out. I'm

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Speaker 1: still a wife at this moment, you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: just do it yourself. Don't ask somebody else to do it,

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Speaker 1: or it will not happen, and if it does, you'll

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Speaker 1: have to redo it. Okay, she's saying, yes, everybody, but

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Speaker 1: these ladies, these women locked and matrimonial bliss. Again, We're

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Speaker 1: focusing more on the death part of those vows. I,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Whatever happened to d I v O r

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Speaker 1: c E. You know you can get one practically free. Sorry.

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Speaker 1: Brian clay Pool Uh joining me, national criminal defense attorney

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Speaker 1: and trial lawyer for um wife turned would be killer

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Speaker 1: Dahlia de Polito. Dr Brian Russell, lawyer psycho. Oh, Brian,

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Speaker 1: he just had to go out and do us with

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Speaker 1: his degrees. He's not only a lawyer but a psychologist.

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Speaker 1: I guess he told you. Okay, Oh yeah, me too.

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Speaker 1: Host of Investigation Discoveries Fatal Vows. Dr Brian Russell with us,

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Speaker 1: Bobby Maxwell, Crime Stories investigative reporter, and Cheryl McCullum, director

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Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Institute, joining me in l A.

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Speaker 1: Alan Duke here in the studio. Jackie Howard still shaking

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Speaker 1: her head. No, everybody, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Why did these women kill. Why do they hire hit man? Well,

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Speaker 1: the goal standard, of course. I'm sorry, Brian, but you

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Speaker 1: have the dubious honor of representing Dahlia di Polito. Now,

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Speaker 1: her husband said she tried to kill him before with

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Speaker 1: poisonous Chai tea from Starbucks. Can't prove that. We've heard reports.

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Speaker 1: Brian Claypool has the cup in his dishwasher right now

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Speaker 1: and is refusing to turn it over. But listen to

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Speaker 1: this now, listen to this. This is police sound and video,

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Speaker 1: police confronting Dona de Pilito over her dead husband. Listen,

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Speaker 1: we had a report of the disturbance at your house

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Speaker 1: and there were shots fired. Is your husband, Michael? Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry to tell you man, he's been killed. He's

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Speaker 1: been killed. Try to find up right now. We need

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Speaker 1: to get We need to get police. I can't look now.

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Speaker 1: We have to do our job. You want for finest killer? Okay?

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Speaker 1: We need you to calm up. I need you to

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Speaker 1: go with these defectives. Okay, does you have enemies? Is

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Speaker 1: there anyone that would want to hurt Okay? Who would

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Speaker 1: want to hurt him? Waitness you said this? Blackmail? Running

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Speaker 1: from the cantless them? I cannot do this right now.

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Speaker 1: I need you. I need you to take to the station.

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Speaker 1: I can't go with these detectives. If you want to

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Speaker 1: help your husband, okay, if you want to help your husband,

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Speaker 1: you need to go with you. If that's not enough.

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Speaker 1: You see Dahlia Dippolito bending over in pain with the

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Speaker 1: anguish at the prospect of being a widow, her husband

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Speaker 1: dead in their home and cops come to tell her.

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Speaker 1: But wait a minute, what about this now and when

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Speaker 1: it's done, you know, culture changing your money. No, that's

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Speaker 1: not like like again, that's the goal. Standard to Bobby Maxwell,

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter. I've got so many women to

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Speaker 1: get to, so many female killers who want their husbands dead.

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Speaker 1: I don't have time, am my spot on serious accept

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Speaker 1: to stuff them all in. But I've got to start

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Speaker 1: with Dahlia Dippolito. I mean, this is the woman on

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Speaker 1: the house arrest. She was only supposed to go to

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Speaker 1: her lawyer's office and church. She got pregnant. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'll get back to you on that, Brian Claypool, But

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Speaker 1: fill me in on the murder plot. Bobby Well, Dohlia

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Speaker 1: met her her husband, Michael um and within six months, Bobby, Bobby,

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Speaker 1: you know how I love you, Bobby Maxwell. Now when

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Speaker 1: you say that Dahlia di Polito met and I'm saying

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Speaker 1: that with air quotes met her husband. What where did

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Speaker 1: they meet? On match dot com? At church in Sunday school?

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Speaker 1: Where did they meet? Bobby? Well, they actually met. She

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Speaker 1: was an escort hooker. Oh, actually not a hunky she's

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Speaker 1: getting paid for it. Okay, Brian Claypool, I respect you

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Speaker 1: as a man for jumping in all right. Yeah, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: they met, Believe they or not. I know this is

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Speaker 1: gonna this is going to knock your your socks off.

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Speaker 1: But they met at a at a Starbucks coffee shot?

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Speaker 1: Is that? Is that where they agreed to meet? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Because that's not what he says, and that's not what

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Speaker 1: the state says, and not that's not what her ticks

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Speaker 1: say to various men where she's agreeing to have sex

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Speaker 1: with them. Brian, you there response. Do you really believe,

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Speaker 1: Brian that women just want to go have sex with

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Speaker 1: different men for fun? Did your wife tell you that? Well?

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Speaker 1: I I think I think what's important for all these

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Speaker 1: stories just to get the facts straight and what leads

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Speaker 1: up to these women allegedly doing this because there's obviously

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Speaker 1: there's something. In my opinion, there's the common thread is

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Speaker 1: there's something wrong in the marriage. And in Dolia's case,

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Speaker 1: you want to focus maybe a lot on Oh, she's

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Speaker 1: allegedly in score she tried to I'm not worried about

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Speaker 1: who she sleeps tell you that. I'm more worried about

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Speaker 1: the murder aspect. Well, but nobody wants to talk about

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Speaker 1: is the domestic abuse and the police failure to investigate that.

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Speaker 1: So those are the elements that we tried to highlight

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Speaker 1: in the two trials that I did. Okay, can we

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Speaker 1: get back to the um correct me, Bobby, did Dahlia

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Speaker 1: Depilato ever tell anyone such as police battered women, mom, neighbor?

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Speaker 1: I mean she lived with her mother on house arrest.

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Speaker 1: Did she tell anybody she had been abused before she

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Speaker 1: hired a hit man? Not that I'm aware of. And

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Speaker 1: let me get back to the hooker, the escort. And

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Speaker 1: again I'm not the church lady. She can sleep with

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Speaker 1: whoever she wants to. I am certainly not pointing the

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Speaker 1: moral finger because I don't want to one back at me.

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Speaker 1: But I'm more concerned about the murder for hire. She

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Speaker 1: can sleep wherever she wants to with whatever man is

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Speaker 1: not enough to pay enough pay her money to sleep with.

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Speaker 1: But it's very clear throughout all of the documentation in

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Speaker 1: court that he did hire her as an escort. I

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Speaker 1: mean that, that's in the court record. But you know what,

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Speaker 1: will pretend that's not true. Let's talk just about the

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Speaker 1: murder for hire, Bobby Maxwell. We just heard the sound

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Speaker 1: of her saying. What did she say? I'm five thousand

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Speaker 1: percent sure I want him dead? Not but five tell

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Speaker 1: me from the beginning, and don't bring up the hooker

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Speaker 1: park because her lawyer is gonna get mad. Go ahead, Well, Michael,

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Speaker 1: after meeting Dahlia, within a matter of months, was ready

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Speaker 1: to have him removed from her life, allegedly, and UM,

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Speaker 1: so she hired a hitman who turned to be an

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Speaker 1: undercover detective and someone that knew Michael Dippolito. UM, and

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Speaker 1: that's when they did a second conversation and she was

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Speaker 1: caught on tape saying five thousand percent sure she wanted

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Speaker 1: him dead. And UM actually went through one trial, and

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Speaker 1: then another one after an appeal, hung jury, and then

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Speaker 1: a third trial and UH finally were able to hand

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Speaker 1: a conviction down on Dahlia. Well, now the first one.

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Speaker 1: The jury was out for about um less than less

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Speaker 1: than an hour or less than two hours, and came

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Speaker 1: back with a guilty that was reversed on appeal because

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Speaker 1: the defense lawyers asked and were denied the right to

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Speaker 1: ask the jurars individually if they had heard about the

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Speaker 1: case or seen any pre trial publicity. That's what we

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Speaker 1: call vodre, which coincidentally French to speak the truth. That's

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Speaker 1: what that means when you question the ur ours to

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Speaker 1: find out who you're putting in the jury box. Um,

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Speaker 1: Brian Claypool, let me tell you a funny story. As

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Speaker 1: my daughter says, Mom, you're off topic. I was getting

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Speaker 1: ready to strike at jury Brian and the defense attorney

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Speaker 1: all bravado. As some people say, full of piss and vinegar.

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Speaker 1: I would never say that, because we don't say piss

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Speaker 1: in our house. But um, he stands up in front

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Speaker 1: of the whole Jeery Pool, in front of my judge,

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Speaker 1: who was eighty four years old at the time, and says,

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Speaker 1: I'll take anybody, any gerra will find my guy not guilty.

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Speaker 1: I'll take the first twelve you're afraid to do that,

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Speaker 1: Miss Grace, and everything in me scream, don't give in,

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Speaker 1: don't do this. But I went bring it on like

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Speaker 1: the fool that I was, and put the twelve in

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Speaker 1: the box. Okay, that's a bad idea. Now, luckily I

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Speaker 1: did manage to get a conviction through no fault of

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Speaker 1: my own. Okay, because that should have blown blew it

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Speaker 1: right there, taken his bait. But my point is, for dire,

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Speaker 1: I think once you strike the jury, Brian, that's your

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Speaker 1: verdict right there. I've always thought it's all injury selection. Brian. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's a great point. See jury selection is oftentimes the

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Speaker 1: most important part of the trial, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: trial lawyers, especially in the criminal forum, they don't they

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Speaker 1: don't spend the required time and and research and and

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Speaker 1: and higher consultants and look at the psychological aspect of

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Speaker 1: selecting jurors. I mean, to our credit, Nancy, I know

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Speaker 1: you you have a lot of disdain towards Dahlia. But

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Speaker 1: the second trial that that you just mentioned, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we did a fantastic job in that case. I have

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Speaker 1: to say, you really did. I mean, but but for

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Speaker 1: getting back to your point, was it was primarily jury

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Speaker 1: selection I mean, we were so so vigilant, you know,

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Speaker 1: and and and looking at body. It's not only just

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Speaker 1: what jurors say, but their body. Lane. It's a vibe

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Speaker 1: and it's a vine. You got to really get in there.

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Speaker 1: And I never used a your consultant because I wanted

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Speaker 1: to get that vibe myself, because your jury consultants not

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Speaker 1: trying your case. You are. And if you get the

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Speaker 1: idea the person doesn't like the stake, or the person

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Speaker 1: doesn't like you or whatever, you don't want them all

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Speaker 1: the jury, Nancy. And another thing, women, women are the

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Speaker 1: best u people to select jurors. I never ever pick

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Speaker 1: a jury without a female attorney in my office or

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Speaker 1: a female legal assistant. I mean, and I don't I'm

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Speaker 1: not doing this's a stroke because you know, I've always

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Speaker 1: had a had a crush on you know. I think

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Speaker 1: it's something intuitive and scientists would probably argue with me,

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Speaker 1: but you I think women are more just attune to

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Speaker 1: feelings and emotions nonverbal cues. I really do believe that,

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Speaker 1: no offense, I'm not saying we're smarter at which we are,

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Speaker 1: but I do think stop saying that, Jackie. I do

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Speaker 1: think that they pick up those cues, you know. But

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Speaker 1: long story short. The first trial, she was found guilty

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Speaker 1: in a heartbeat. Yeah, yeah, it was reversed because, um,

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Speaker 1: the judge did not ask each individual juror. He asked

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Speaker 1: a blanket question, who's heard of this case before? You know?

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Speaker 1: And a few people raise their hands. The the appellate

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Speaker 1: court said he should have asked each one individually that question. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so it got reverse. Goes back mistrial, six member jury

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Speaker 1: splits it three to three. All right, goes back to trial.

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Speaker 1: The third time they take less than three hours to

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Speaker 1: convict her. So the third time was the charm. But

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Speaker 1: in this case, Dr Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist and host

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Speaker 1: of Investigation just Every's hit show, Fatal vows Dr Briant Um,

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Speaker 1: they hadn't been married very long. I still stand by

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Speaker 1: the assertation they met when she was an escort. But fine,

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Speaker 1: they met in Sunday school. Say whatever you want, Claypool.

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Speaker 1: So they're married about six months and she starts move

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Speaker 1: trying to move his condo into her name and digging

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Speaker 1: into all of his checking accounts and banking accounts, and

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Speaker 1: almost immediately, let's just say, the bloom was not off

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Speaker 1: the rose. According to the States. She starts planning his

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Speaker 1: murder with a cup of chai. T what about it, Brian.

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Speaker 1: So today's topic is right up my alley, because Fatal

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Speaker 1: Vows is about spouses who tried to murder their spouses

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Speaker 1: and uh and succeed if they made it onto fatal Vows.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that a lot of people

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Speaker 1: find interesting is that we have so many female perpetrators

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Speaker 1: on this show because is I think people sort of

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Speaker 1: intuitively understand that in general when we're talking about murder,

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Speaker 1: men seem to have the greater propensity among the two genders,

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Speaker 1: uh for violence in general, including murder. But when you

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Speaker 1: look at our fatal Vows cases, they break down about

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Speaker 1: equally with female and male perpetrators. And then if you

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Speaker 1: look at the reasons, you know, what are the top

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Speaker 1: two or three reasons why people end up on fatal Vows.

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Speaker 1: Number one is infidelity by far. Number two is financial

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Speaker 1: issues money, The third one probably is kids issues over

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Speaker 1: custody of children. And and you notice that abuse, being

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Speaker 1: a victim of abuse and and and trying to lash

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Speaker 1: back out at the abuser is not among those three. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And so so that's uh. Those are hopefully symmetrics to

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Speaker 1: facts that. Now, when you talk about this first attempt

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Speaker 1: of allegedly to murder UH Dahlia's husband with the poisoning,

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Speaker 1: I realized you were on a first name basis. Dr

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Speaker 1: Brian Russell. Please don't get too close to this woman. Well, hey,

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Speaker 1: she tried to murder. She she hired to hit man

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Speaker 1: to kill her husband. She also, according to him, tried

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Speaker 1: to poison him with chi t she's a hooker to boot.

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Speaker 1: Bryan Claypool denies that, and somehow, on house arrest, living

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Speaker 1: alone with her mother, she got pregnant. I guess the

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Speaker 1: guys hiding in a can of chicken soup. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how that happened. But Brian, please don't get too

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Speaker 1: close to her. Now, what were you saying the poisoning.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that we do note is is

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Speaker 1: UH men and women seem to take different different approaches

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Speaker 1: to this, and and the more up close and personal,

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Speaker 1: more violent methodologies seemed to be more associated with the

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Speaker 1: male perpetrators and the hiring somebody else, getting somebody else

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Speaker 1: to do it, do using poison. Things like that that

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Speaker 1: that are sort of more arms length seemed to be

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Speaker 1: more the methods of choice for the women. You would

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Speaker 1: not believe. We've had episodes of fatal vows where women

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Speaker 1: have even hired or persuaded or pimped out their own

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Speaker 1: children in order to solicit somebody else to murder their spouses.

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Speaker 1: It's just, uh, it's just morbidly disgustingly fascinating. And and

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Speaker 1: I'll I'll wrap up but with this, Uh, because I'm

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Speaker 1: as you know, I'm always trying to extract lessons for

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Speaker 1: our listeners. Uh. A few months is not in any

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Speaker 1: universe enough time to get to know somebody, even if

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Speaker 1: they don't have anything like a propensity to murder you. Uh,

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Speaker 1: just just in terms of you having a decent shot

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Speaker 1: at a marriage that doesn't end in h does asters divorce,

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Speaker 1: A few months is nowhere close to enough time to

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Speaker 1: spend getting to know somebody. Well, I gotta tell you something,

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Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell. I look back on other men that

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Speaker 1: I dated, no offense. Guys, you're all wonderful, but you

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Speaker 1: know what they taught me how great my husband is.

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Speaker 1: A lot of times I threatened to throw all his

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Speaker 1: clothes in the front yard and burned them, or slid

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Speaker 1: his tires, or just something along that alley. But the

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Speaker 1: truth is it takes you've got to think it through.

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Speaker 1: You're so right, Dr Brian. It takes time. And you

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Speaker 1: know there's not a lot of guys out there, Bobby Jackie,

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Speaker 1: I think you'll agree with me that will be there

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Speaker 1: for you. I don't mean when you're young and cute

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Speaker 1: and your twenty one and you can slide into a

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Speaker 1: side six and oh everything is so awful, awesome and

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Speaker 1: sparkly and shiny. You. I mean when you have children,

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Speaker 1: and when people get sick, and whether there's a death

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Speaker 1: in your family or the old gray mare she ain't

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Speaker 1: what she used to be. That's when you find out

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Speaker 1: what real love is. That's what real love is. And

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Speaker 1: that's hard to take in when you're twenty or twenty

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Speaker 1: five or even thirty, but you learn that and you

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Speaker 1: can't learn anything like that in just six months. Alan Duke, okay, Alan,

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Speaker 1: I hope you're listening. I want to pause and thank

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Speaker 1: our partner who is making today's serious XM program possible.

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Speaker 1: But before we do, I just want to hear Brian

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Speaker 1: Claypol's client Dollia di Polito, just one more time, just

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Speaker 1: for old Time's sake, roll it alan here, anything to

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Speaker 1: do anything, You're going to do anything, anything you didn't

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Speaker 1: do anything. You're going to jail today. They're gonna come

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Speaker 1: with your hand of you to take you to the

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Speaker 1: Pommi's County Jail. Vote you for solicitation of first degree

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Speaker 1: murder on your own and now to thank our partner,

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Speaker 1: know it doesn't end with Dahlia Dippolito. There's a rash

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Speaker 1: of women who, instead of just seeking divorce for Pete's sake,

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Speaker 1: as miserable as that is, decide to hire hit men

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Speaker 1: to kill their husbands. And of course, Cheryl McCollum, you're

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Speaker 1: the expert, you're the director of the Coal Case Institute.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why they just don't do it themselves

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Speaker 1: or just get a divorce, you know, Cheryl, you can

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Speaker 1: practically get a divorce for freethers, even do it yourself.

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Speaker 1: D I y D do it yourself divorces, Cheryl. It

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Speaker 1: would save a whole lot of time and pain for

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Speaker 1: everybody if they would just get divorced, or walk out,

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Speaker 1: or even stage their own death. They don't have to

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Speaker 1: kill anybody to get rid of a man. Can we

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Speaker 1: just leave death as an option in any form out

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Speaker 1: of this scenario, Cheryl, I think I better call your

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Speaker 1: husband when we finish this. But listen to this. I

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Speaker 1: want you to hear about somebody other than Dahlia di

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Speaker 1: Polito the hooker, Okay, Brian whatever, She's not a hooker

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Speaker 1: that it's five thousand percent sure she wants her husband dad.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about Diana love Joy, who, when

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Speaker 1: confronted in court with her nasty deed, passes out of innocence.

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Speaker 1: Listen to me. The jury in the evolved entitled cause

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Speaker 1: find the defendant, Diana Gene love Joy guilty of the

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Speaker 1: crime of conspiracy to commit murder in violation of Piano

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Speaker 1: pot Section oneing to par a. We the jury in

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Speaker 1: the above and cause the defendant. There she is. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you could hear that thump, but that

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Speaker 1: was Diana love Joy's hid hitting the chair at the announcement.

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Speaker 1: You're guilty, Bobby Maxwell. Crime Stories investigative reporter, tell me

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Speaker 1: what happened? How did she hook up with her co

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Speaker 1: conspirator to murder uh her ex husband? Well, you know

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Speaker 1: they were going through her and her husband were going

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Speaker 1: through a very very contentious divorce and especially a custody battle,

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Speaker 1: and um it took over two years of this battle,

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Speaker 1: and when it was coming to the very end of

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Speaker 1: the uh the case, she was being faced with having

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Speaker 1: to give up of custody of her young son and

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Speaker 1: to pay her husband and dollars. I guess that was

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Speaker 1: a little bit too much. That's when she reached out

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Speaker 1: to her firearms instructor. She took classes with Weldon McDavid

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Speaker 1: and he's been a marine. He of course knows about firearms,

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Speaker 1: and um plotted to take out her husband. So Sheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 1: there you go. The this guy trying to get custody

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Speaker 1: of the children and sticking it to his wife for

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Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty grand had no idea. His wife

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Speaker 1: with was like, okay, you know what, I'm not giving

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Speaker 1: you the kids or the money. All right, you're right, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: Here's the thing that amazes me though, when they go

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Speaker 1: to find these quote hit men, and they go to

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Speaker 1: people that have a legitimate job. So she's not a criminal,

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Speaker 1: her instructor is not a criminal. But she thinks, hey,

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Speaker 1: this guy knows how to shoot, so I'll hire him

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Speaker 1: to murder someone. That's a great plan, right there. So

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Speaker 1: murder someone that actually knows my husband. That that's gonna work,

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Speaker 1: you know, Cheryl. People think that murder is like it

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Speaker 1: is on TV or in movies. It's not. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you and I know from going to actual homicide scenes

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Speaker 1: that it. First of all, it stinks, really unless you're

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Speaker 1: used to it. The first time you smell dead human

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Speaker 1: body that's been there a day or two throw up.

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Speaker 1: I've seen veteran cops just start vomiting uncontrollably just at

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Speaker 1: the smell. You go in. Blood is sticky, there's hair

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Speaker 1: stuck in it, It's everywhere. There's just something dank and

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Speaker 1: a natural and wrong when you go onto a murder scene.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and once you've been in one, you know

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Speaker 1: it immediately when you smell that smell, when you get

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Speaker 1: that feeling that somebody has been killed. I can remember

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Speaker 1: you and I were I would say, a football filled

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Speaker 1: away from the crime scene, and we knew before we

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Speaker 1: even got there what we had the wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: which one was that I don't I can't ever name

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Speaker 1: the names. Do you always want me to recall names?

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Speaker 1: When we were in the cut and we were literally

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Speaker 1: a football field away near mechanics fille, and you and

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Speaker 1: I both knew exactly this person is Okay, what did

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Speaker 1: we say. I'm trying to remember it. I can't remember which.

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Speaker 1: You turned to me and you said, oh yeah, this this,

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Speaker 1: this could this could be the one that's been here

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Speaker 1: a minute. In other words, this person had already decomposed

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Speaker 1: to the point where you could smell them that far away.

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Speaker 1: We were at least the football feeling away from the

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Speaker 1: blue lights. So again, okay, he knew what was happening before,

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Speaker 1: and I was complete Novice Cheryl. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: when I got into criminal law, I had to look

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Speaker 1: up the definition of plane iff indefendant. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: anything about a dead body. I only knew how to

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Speaker 1: quote Shakespeare for Pete's sake. And I mean, if I

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Speaker 1: know the president, it's of a dead body than anybody would.

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Speaker 1: What I'm saying is when people plan these things. Dr

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Speaker 1: Brian Russell. Dr Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of investigation Discoveries,

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Speaker 1: hit show Fatal Fatal vows you think it's going to

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Speaker 1: be insanitized, lab conditions, airbrushed murder. So to say, it's

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Speaker 1: not like that. Dr Brian, It's not like that. And

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Speaker 1: one of the big questions that we get is how

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Speaker 1: can somebody go from standing there at the altar, standing

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Speaker 1: there in front of whoever is officiating, and professing their

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Speaker 1: love for somebody and and you know, supposedly most of

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Speaker 1: the time feeling love at that moment, two seeing their

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Speaker 1: spouse as such an inhuman object that they could do

424
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 1: something like that or have something like that done to

425
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: them and not feel, you know, just overwhelming guilt and

426
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: shame and remorse about it. And I think, uh, I

427
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: think what it speaks to is the critical importance of

428
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: what you said earlier about really really getting to know somebody,

429
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: Because when somebody has that in them, they've got that

430
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: cold calculating capacity. Uh, it will show itself another way

431
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: that the murder that they commit is never the first

432
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 1: time that trait came out. But you have to give

433
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: yourself enough time and enough situations with the person to

434
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: be able to see it. Another thing, and just as

435
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: I said earlier, there are many people who would not

436
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: have ended up on fatal vows had they given themselves

437
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: enough time to get to know somebody. Another thing is

438
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: there are many people who who wouldn't have ended up

439
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: on fatal vows had they waited to be a little

440
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: bit older so they had a little bit more life

441
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: experience under their belt before they pick somebody. The other

442
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: big question that people ask me is what you asked

443
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: a few minutes ago. Why don't they just get divorced?

444
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: And the reason why they don't is because when they

445
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: think about the two options, well, I could commit murder

446
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,719
Speaker 1: or I could get divorced. If they get divorced, they

447
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: might have to share custody, they might have to give

448
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: up some money. It's always about this right there. Okay,

449
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, You're totally up under my skin right

450
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: now because the thought of giving away John, David and

451
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: Lucy fifty percent of the time. I'll just stay married,

452
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: you know what. Fine, Yes, yes, I'll just stay married

453
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: rather than give up fifty percent of the time with

454
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: the children. I mean, Brian Claypool. Now, true, Brian Russell

455
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: has out and done you anyway with degrees because you

456
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: know I have my l M. Not to rub it in, Brian,

457
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: but we both have and one degree more than you.

458
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: Don't feel don't feel inferior, Brian. Okay, Please I stroke

459
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: you a few minutes ago. Women are taking a jury

460
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: and then I just turned around and bit the hand

461
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: that stroked me. But Brian guys. Brian Claypool is with us.

462
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: He's a national criminal defense attorney and really shot to

463
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: fame struggling with the case of Dahlia to Polito and

464
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: managed to get a mistrial in the second case. So,

465
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: Brian Claypole, you're hearing what Brian Russell. Dr Russell fatal

466
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: vows and Sheryl McCollum was saying. Do you think that

467
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: child custody is the main issue? Because you know what,

468
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna fight over the bank account or the

469
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: pots and the pans. You can have the picture frames

470
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: their rooms to go sofa take it. I'd be mad

471
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: if you didn't. But when it comes down to those children,

472
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, uh, you got a tiger by the tail.

473
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: You can't hold on and you can't let go and

474
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: she I think I think what Brian Russell is saying.

475
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: I partially agree with what he's saying about the child

476
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: custody issue. But here's what I want to say about

477
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: this issue of of women trying to have their husbands killed.

478
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: I lived and breathed one of the most famous cases

479
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: for what four or five years. I think the point

480
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: we're missing is that most of it, I actually choked

481
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: on it. But most of these women who try to

482
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: have their husbands killed when they get married are not

483
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: prewired to have their husbands killed. They don't they're not

484
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: on the they're not saying till death do us part,

485
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: and she whiz, I've already had a plan of contriving

486
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: in my head to have my husband killed. It's kind

487
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: of right till death do us part. But here here's

488
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: my point. I think in a lot of these cases

489
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: there's an element of desperation that permeates the woman's body.

490
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: So something is happening in that marriage and not condoning

491
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: what they're doing, but something's happening that triggering them to

492
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: even have a thought of having their husband knocked off

493
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: in Dahlia's case, and Brian Russell might say that well

494
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: on his show, Uh, domestic abuse is not a big factor.

495
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: Well that that makes sense because in my case and

496
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: dealing with Dahlia, who who who was domestically abused? That's

497
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: that's kind of a silent thing women don't want to

498
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: often come for. Don't me understand something? Did you ever

499
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: did she ever file a police report on ab She

500
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: reported it to her her former lover, lover Mohammed. And

501
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: then when she did call, didn't she ask him to

502
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: take part in the murder? No? No, but but b Nancy,

503
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: here's an important fact that that people are missing is

504
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: that first, the first phone call made by the confidential

505
00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: informant to the police station was to report a mastic abuse.

506
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: So Dahlia had reached out to him, and then he

507
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: did report that to the police department. The only point

508
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: was trying to make is all right, why white white Brian,

509
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: please please? I know you're slippery, is an eel, but

510
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: let me ask again. You say that Dahlia di Polito,

511
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: who has been convicted of hiring a hitman to murder

512
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: her husband by two juries, you're telling me she never

513
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: called police, Better Women's Center, told her mother relatives nothing.

514
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: She told a person named Mohammed that coincidentally she solicited

515
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: in the murder scheme. That's a yes, no, that's that's true, right,

516
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: But that's not that's not uncommon with women who are

517
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: being being abused by their husbands. That's not fine. I

518
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: worked as a volunteer and the Battered Women's Center. Husband's

519
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: abusing me. I work, Brian Brian. I represented battered women

520
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: and worked as a volunteer for nine years at the

521
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: Battered Women Center, very familiar with batter women and the

522
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: battered women syndrome. The batter women syndrome, Cheryl, you and

523
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 1: I have dealt with many many times in court. When

524
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 1: a woman kills after an extended period of time being abused,

525
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: it is not a well thought out plan such as

526
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: poisoning or hiring a hitman. It is an instinct that

527
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:38,919
Speaker 1: comes akin to self defense. So that is by far

528
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: not the defense in Dahlia to Polito, and was not

529
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: the defense at trial at all. Listen, Dahlia was a

530
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: criminal before she tried to hire a hit man. She's

531
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: a criminal now. And Nasy, you were talking about Shakespeare

532
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: a minute ago. One of my favorite quotes is hell

533
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: is empty, and all the devil or here. And the

534
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: bottom line is when it comes to this type of crime,

535
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: and you're gonna go out and seek somebody else to

536
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: do the devil's word that you don't have the backbone

537
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: to do yourself, which is killed him when he is

538
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: beating you, which is not the case here again, you

539
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: go out and hire somebody to do it for you.

540
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: And like I tell people all the time, the devil

541
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 1: is at the dinner table. Well, Nancy, Nancy, I think

542
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: I can I just make one more point about are

543
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: you gonna tell me again? No? No, but I but

544
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: I promise, you'll promise you. I'll take a shower after

545
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: we do this. Okay, all right? But I find it

546
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: interesting that that when we're talking about women who are

547
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: who are allegedly hiring somebody else to commit the murder

548
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: of their husband, I think that tells me one important fact,

549
00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: which is maybe they aren't sure it that really is

550
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: the recourse they want to take, because if they were

551
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: so sure, why wouldn't they do it themselves? And that's

552
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,479
Speaker 1: that's really kind of what the subplot was in both

553
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: of the trials that I did with Dahlia. And maybe

554
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: Brian could speak to this issue too. I don't know

555
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: if he agrees with this or not, but but these

556
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: women are are thinking about options that they have to

557
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: extricate from the marriage. You mentioned one Nancy being divorced.

558
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: But I think it's a process they're going through and

559
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: and and they're they're in my opinion, they're not certain

560
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 1: that they're killing is really the I'll tell you what

561
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: she sounded certain on that recorded conversation those mini mini

562
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: recorded conversations where she was hiring a hit man. Those

563
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: were played at try trying to convince herself. Why wouldn't okay, Okay,

564
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,959
Speaker 1: you know what I want to go to, Diane. They

565
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: hire a hit man so that they have an alibi,

566
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: so they're nowhere near it, so they didn't commit the

567
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 1: murder themselves, so they don't go to print. You're welcome,

568
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: And that's not all. And I'm talking about Diana Lovejoy,

569
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: the one that passed out in court when they called

570
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: out that she was guilty. The jury and found her guilty.

571
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: She looked around like what did they what me? And

572
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: then immediately passed out. But what happened before that, Bobby

573
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: Maxwell Crime Stories investigative reporter, correct me if I'm wrong,

574
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: is that the husband uh Movel Hill gets a call

575
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: around eleven o'clock at night by someone claiming their private

576
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: investigator that had incriminating evidence on the husband Mulva Hill,

577
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: to use against him in a custody battle, and that

578
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: if he wanted that information um that he could go

579
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: to this dirt road to the end of it, and

580
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: the evidence there that he could use in his custody

581
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: battle would be take to a power poll. So movea hill,

582
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 1: gets a friend, They go out there, they hear something,

583
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: turn around and look in the bushes. They notice movement

584
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: as a person lying prone with a rifle pointed at them,

585
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: and shots begin to ring out. All right, so that's

586
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: what happened in that case. Before I go to Julia Murfeld,

587
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: a young mom of just about years old, her husband

588
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 1: calls her godly, saintly, a wonderful woman. Yeah, she planned

589
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 1: to have him killed. I want to pause and thank

590
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: our partner making today's careful look at women killers possible.

591
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592
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598
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613
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614
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Speaker 1: being our partner today and now to Michigan. You know

615
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: Julia Murfield is called wonderful and godly, says her husband,

616
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: the same husband she tried to have murdered for the

617
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: very first time. The intended murder victim, Jake Murfeld, just

618
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 1: twenty seven years old, spoke out and he says, I

619
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: know my wife as a wonderful person. She is a

620
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: godly woman. The two had two little children, ages just

621
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: four in two and he says, quote, she's been nothing

622
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:13,439
Speaker 1: but a great mother to them. Okay, Um, I don't

623
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: quite understand where he's coming from. Tell me, Bobby Maxwell,

624
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 1: Crime Stories contributing investigative reporter, what happened. Well, they were

625
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: having a tough time at their marriage and um, they've

626
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: been fighting. And Murfield actually said that she was thinking

627
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: about having him killed for a while because if he

628
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: was dead, she wouldn't have to worry about the family's

629
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: judgment or breaking his heart. That's how good of a person.

630
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: Listen to this, she's shaking his hand the hit man

631
00:41:55,239 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: business to discross. She's laughing, Bobby Matt, So, I just

632
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: wanted you to hear her. And she's caught on tape,

633
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: of course, and she's in a detectives vehicle parked outside

634
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:13,479
Speaker 1: a store at Freeport Township, and she lays out why

635
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: she wants her husband dad, and she said very clearly

636
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: it was to get her husband's four hundred thousand dollar

637
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: life insurance policy. Do I have that right, Bobby Maxwell, Yes,

638
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: you do. And fifty thousand of that would go to

639
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: the hitman who was going to do it. WHOA, that's

640
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: a that's an easy paycheck. Fifty grand for one bullet.

641
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: On the video released by the County Prosecutor's office, she

642
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: says she wants her husband kill because, quote as Bobby

643
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: Maxwell just told us, it was easier than divorcing him.

644
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 1: I didn't have to worry about the judgment of my family.

645
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: I didn't have to worry about breaking his heart. All

646
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: that stuff Like this is like how I gotta clean getaway.

647
00:42:55,600 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, host of Investigation Discoveries fatal vows, this

648
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 1: woman is so young and fresh and just cute. She

649
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 1: looks like any woman I see walking along the aisles

650
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: at Target or Walmart or Costco with her children in

651
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: the buggy. How does it go so sideways? Well, this

652
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 1: is an excellent illustration of what I was saying earlier

653
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: about how there's always this sociopathic undercurrent of entitlement to

654
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: have my cake and eat it too. If I get divorced,

655
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: then I'll have to make some sacrifices. I'll have to

656
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: share custody, I'll have to split the money. But if

657
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: I go this route, then I can have everything that

658
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: can be relieved of my spouse that that I'm no

659
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: longer happy with, and I can have everything that I

660
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: want in response, Uh, quickly, also to to what Brian

661
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: Claypool said, Uh, while we have not had a lot

662
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: of episodes of Fatal Vows where the murder has boiled

663
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: down to abuse, we've had a number of episodes where

664
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: women have told other guys they were being abused to

665
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: get the guys to participate in the murders of the husbands,

666
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: and and so. Uh and and this phenomenon that Brian

667
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: Claypool mentioned about, well, I think sometimes they hire men

668
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: because they're trying to convince themselves they want to do it.

669
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 1: That's something I have never seen. I have seen many

670
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 1: times women hire men so that they will be at

671
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,879
Speaker 1: arms length from the transaction, and if the thing goes bad,

672
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,919
Speaker 1: they'll be able to say, well, I didn't really think

673
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: they were really gonna do it. I didn't mean for

674
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: a murder to happen. I just talked about it with

675
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: the person. They decided on their own to go off

676
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 1: and do it because they wanted me or or something

677
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: like that. I've seen that in a number of Fatal

678
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: vas episodes where I'm looking at this woman and I

679
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: know you can't judge a book by their cover. But

680
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: Brian Claypool, this woman. And I know you're defending Dahlia,

681
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna go back into that. I'm not

682
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: kidding around right now. I'm serious. This woman here, this

683
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: Julia Charlene Murfield, as a young girl. In my mind,

684
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: she's just twenty one years old. She's got these two children,

685
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: she's been the perfect mom, she's you know, always kept

686
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: it in the middle of the road. And then out

687
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: of the blue, she promises somebody fifty grand to kill

688
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: her husband. But you know, Brian, as much as part

689
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 1: of me feels bad for her, lady, justice is blind.

690
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter that she's this young soccer mom with

691
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: a four year old and a two year old. We're

692
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: talking about murder, Brian. Murder. Yeah, Nancy, real quick. I

693
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: think with Julia's case, um, and with other women who

694
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: are are very attractive, And I don't mean to bring

695
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: that looks up again, but I think it's important. I

696
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: think some of these younger women who are very beautiful,

697
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: who have their whole lives ahead of them, and who

698
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: have a perception in society, especially with men, men looking

699
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: at them like and I'll be honest with you, when

700
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: I look, when I look at a beautiful woman, like

701
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 1: Julia right, and I see her, I have trouble, even

702
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: though you might have a mountain of evidence that support

703
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,359
Speaker 1: that she tried to have her husband killed, I as

704
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 1: a man, have some degree of difficulty believing that a

705
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: beautiful young woman like that is capable of doing that.

706
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,399
Speaker 1: And I think some of these hold it right there, Ryan,

707
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: because Cheryl McCollum, it's true. What Claypool is saying is true,

708
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: and it works to the benefit of female defendants, especially

709
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: when they're a mother. Because when you tell a jury

710
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: this young mom, when they hear the word mom, I

711
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: think of my mother. You know, my mother literally put

712
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: her own life in danger to save my life when

713
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: I was a toddler and I can still remember it.

714
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: It was at age three. I mean, when you say mother,

715
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: I think of my mother, and it would be a

716
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: cold day and you know where before I would want

717
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: to convict a mother. Cheryl, He's absolutely right, He's dead accurate.

718
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: And the thing it goes even beyond that, because everybody

719
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: has a preconceived notion of what somebody's about when they

720
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: meet them. Well, when you see somebody young and extremely

721
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: pretty and you think, God, she's gotten the world by

722
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: the tail right, and she's married, and it looks like

723
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: everything is just going beautifully. You do not see this

724
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,760
Speaker 1: person coming when they all of a sudden say hey,

725
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: she tried to hire it it man mob style. That

726
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 1: goes against everything you're looking at. The two things don't

727
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 1: fit for a lot of people. But again, that's some

728
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 1: of the most dangerous type of criminals, the ones you

729
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: never see coming. Well, this is what I always say.

730
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: It's as if the mind is tricking the eye. Okay,

731
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: because you see the young mom, you see pictures of

732
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: the children, blah blah blah, and then you hear the evidence.

733
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 1: And I always could use the Scott Peterson case as

734
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: an example. Because you see this young some people say attractive.

735
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: He was never attractive to me. Okay. In fact, you

736
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: know you can help me with this, Dr Russell, you're

737
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: the shrink. The only man that's attractive to me is

738
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: my husband, because he's the one that helps me take

739
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 1: care of the children and goes to the grocery store

740
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: and helps with my mom. Okay, that is attractive to me.

741
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: I don't give a fig how young or buff somebody is,

742
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: and I do not want to see anybody else without

743
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: their shirt on. Just save it. Okay, So Cheryl, it's

744
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: like you see this young mom or this beautiful young lady,

745
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: as Brian Claypool said, and you think wow. Like in

746
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 1: Scott Peterson, he was young, some people thought attractive, college degree,

747
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: golf scholarship, alleged of lee um, loving family job, beautiful home.

748
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: Why would he do such a thing. It just doesn't

749
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: even make sense. Awesome, straight teeth, nice smile, blah blah.

750
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: He had it all right, and nobody wants to believe it.

751
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: Same thing, but more so with a young woman, as

752
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: Claypool is saying, right, Well, women traditionally, they don't think

753
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 1: of women as being violent. They don't think of women

754
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: are being you know, killers of the time. They're gonna

755
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: be right. It's gonna be a man that harms the woman.

756
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: So when they get this thing twisted and it's a

757
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 1: three sixty, you're like, what the heck has happened? And again, Cheryl, yeah,

758
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: I used to hate having to try women. Well, of

759
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: course it helped me a lot. When one woman, her

760
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: a Ka was newdi Pride, that helped me a lot.

761
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: She burned down the whole whole apartment complex because she

762
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,240
Speaker 1: was mad at her girlfriend all right, So that helped

763
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: with the name. Right at the beginning, when I yelled

764
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: out Nuty pride in court, all right, that was a

765
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: strike against her, all right, then let's say, um what Oh?

766
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 1: Then I tried. I believe the oldest woman ever in

767
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: Fulton County. I believe she was almost eighty uh for

768
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: grand larceny. And I didn't want to try her. I

769
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: tried to make her take probation and pay the people back.

770
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: She wouldn't do it, so I had to try the

771
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: old lady. By that time in her life, she's about

772
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,280
Speaker 1: four ft nine, she was wearing a wig and um.

773
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: She pretended to have a heart attack at the end

774
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: of the trial and had to drag her out by

775
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: her little armpits. But even after that, the judge was

776
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: setting to give her jail time. I was such a softie.

777
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: I asked for probation. I think he did give her

778
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: a couple of days in jail, just to scare the

779
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 1: mean old thing. But it's always tough when you try

780
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: a woman. That's just a given. Eryl, it is a given.

781
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: But Nancy, these women are so diabolical. And again I've

782
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: heard you say in court you meet with this hit

783
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,720
Speaker 1: man on a Wednesday, and it's set and take place

784
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 1: on a Friday. During that entire time, at no point

785
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: did you attempt to call it all. At no point

786
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: did your heart or your compassion or your do the

787
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: right thing mechanism kick in and call off the murder

788
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: of your children's father. So you can hate him as

789
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: your husband, but your children deserve that man in their life,

790
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,959
Speaker 1: and that's what you took from them forever. You're gonna

791
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: let them live with the stigma that their father was murdered.

792
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 1: That's horrifying. So you're not talking about, Hey, I met

793
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: with a hit man at three thirty and he shot

794
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 1: my husband at four these this was in the making

795
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: for weeks and weeks and days and days and hour

796
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 1: by hour. You don't call it at all, and you

797
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: know the countdowns and you get up and you get

798
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: dressed and you leave the house knowing that man is

799
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: gonna be dead today and you did nothing to stop it,

800
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: you know, just hearing you laying out like that, like

801
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 1: I've laid it out in court before, it's absolutely it's

802
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: just who's jumping in? Is that Brian or Bryan Russell?

803
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,439
Speaker 1: And Nancy Can? I? Yeah? Can? I wanted to share

804
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: a quick story please. You made a great point. If

805
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: you message about about the mind tricking the eye with

806
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: these beautiful young women, women who are are allegedly trying

807
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: other husbands killed, you are so spot on because in

808
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: the third trial that I that I that I did

809
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: for Dahlia Dip, the lead up in the in the

810
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 1: middle of that trial, I had to hear I had

811
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 1: to hear those video tapes again, the audioce and and

812
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: and then there were audio tapes, you know, the undercover

813
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,359
Speaker 1: audio tapes where you're hearing Dahlia talk, you know, and

814
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 1: with foul language, and and and saying terrible things. You're

815
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: so right because at that point I've never shared this before.

816
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 1: At that point in time, I had I brought earplugs

817
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: into the courtroom. I had my assistant by them for

818
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,879
Speaker 1: me the night before because I simply could not hear

819
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: those tapes again because I was fighting myself. Like another

820
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 1: reason I wasn't denial. I was saying to myself, this

821
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: is not what I'm hearing, is not what I believe

822
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:18,760
Speaker 1: about this woman, beautiful, young lady, attractive, comes from a loving,

823
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: beautiful family like I was. I felt like my mind

824
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 1: was playing tricks on myself, and I just didn't want

825
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: to hear those tapes again, so I literally put earplugs

826
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 1: in while the prosecution was playing them. Isn't that something

827
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 1: you Brian? You're You're really touching my heart right now,

828
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: because when you get to know somebody, you see the

829
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: good in them. Like if somebody were to try to

830
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: tell me something about my mom. You know, Brian, my

831
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: mom has never touched alcohol or hold life. Now, I

832
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: can't say that that that about my dear dad. He

833
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: was not afraid of cottail, but she never curse. I

834
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 1: heard a curse one time, and guess when it was him?

835
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:05,240
Speaker 1: When we were going over to practice and the door,

836
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: the front door to the church was locked. She said.

837
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: I think she said damnin or hell one time in

838
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: her whole life. She just turned eighties six yesterday. She is,

839
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 1: in my mind like a saint. Nothing but love and

840
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 1: hard work her whole life. And when you love somebody,

841
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: you you don't want to hear anything bad about them.

842
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I will go to the map with my

843
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: husband if he says one thing about my mother or

844
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,320
Speaker 1: the twins. I mean, that's a war between the gods.

845
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: You know. He just like goes outside sits with the dog. Seriously,

846
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: I mean, and you're saying you couldn't stand it so

847
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: much because you've gotten to know her, and that's not

848
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: the person you think you know. So when it boils

849
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 1: down to it, Brian Russell, I wonder you're the shrink

850
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: and host of discoveries face a vows. I wonder if

851
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: there's that part in all of us. I wonder how

852
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: far any of us aren't away from doing something evil,

853
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 1: something bad. Well, the good news is, I think most

854
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 1: of us are pretty far away from doing something evil.

855
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: I think that that many of us are close to

856
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: doing something violent if it is in the furtherance of

857
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 1: protection of, you know, those that we love and care about.

858
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,919
Speaker 1: So I think people who would never be capable of

859
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: going up and punching somebody in the face normally would

860
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: have no problem doing it if the person were, you know,

861
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:40,720
Speaker 1: striking out at their child or their spouse or something

862
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 1: like that. Cheryl, let me hear your thoughts on women

863
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 1: that kill Nancy for the murder for higher their corn artists.

864
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,359
Speaker 1: And I think when you hear the defense attorney when

865
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: he was talking about having to get earplugs, that's just

866
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: how good she was at the corn and you keep

867
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 1: the con going. You've got the one woman that love

868
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: joy that you know faith at the end of it,

869
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 1: when she sent it, she's keeping the con going. They

870
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: are devils, and this isn't the first time they've put

871
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: on a ruse. This is the first time they've lied that.

872
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 1: This the first time they've just led people. It's just

873
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: the first time they've done it at this level. But

874
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: they are straight up carn artists that use whatever, whether

875
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: it's their body, whether it's a lie, whether it's a

876
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: hit man, to get their way. I think it's only

877
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 1: fitting that we go out with another tiny, tiny SoundBite

878
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: from our favorite hit girl, Dahlia di Polito. Brian Claypool,

879
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: put in your ear plugs. Take a listen. Come here,

880
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: come here, coming here, please here, like come here, please

881
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: come here. Brian Claypool, nationally known criminal defense attorney. Dr

882
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 1: Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist and host of the hit show

883
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 1: on Investigation Discovery, Fatal Vows. Bobby Maxwell, investigative reporter and

884
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: my friend and colleague RYL. McCullum, crime scene expert and

885
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Institute. You guys are awesome,

886
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 1: all of you. Thank you for being with me. Thank

887
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: you for being with us. Nancy Gray's Crime Story, signing

888
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: off goodbye friend,